I will be travelling Spain in april and will be taking trains from Madrid to barcelona
will the high speed line be up by then and how long would I expect the ride to be?

Another thing I opted to travel on the coastline, if that gives you an idea.

hello chirs! Barcelona-Madrid high speed line is not finished yet. It will be in December with 2hours,15 minutes. Nowadays high speed is about 75%of the distance between the 2 cities. it´s 3hours 55 minutes. The higest speeds are between Zaragoza and Madrid (280km/hour....far from the 350km/hours in december....)

But plane is a good idea to travel between the 2 cities. we call the madrid-bcn conection:"puente aereo" it means "air brige". It is usually cheaper than train...and there are more than 100 flights everyday between the 2 cities. One plane each 20 minutes more or less. You can book on the web, or just go to the airport and take your tickect from a ticket machine like the underground ones.

sorry for my english!!!!!!! hehehe. and enjoy your trip!

the distance between madrid and barcelona is about 650km

Damn I thought it would be like 2 hours 15 mins, If I travel by the coast line how long would that take?

I will take planes in the future, but atleast I will see some scenery.

Damn I thought it would be like 2 hours 15 mins, If I travel by the coast line how long would that take?

I will take planes in the future, but at least I will see some scenery.

The coast line?. :crazy: What do you mean?, Madrid is 320 km away from the nearest sea (Mediterranean) in Valencia, so, if you like the "coast" line you must travel from Madrid to Cartagena-Alicante-Valencia-Barcelona, or Madrid-Valencia-Barcelona

Madrid-Cartagena: 5 hrs. + Cartagena-Barcelona: 8 hrs. = 13 hrs.
Madrid-Valencia: 3.22 hrs. + Valencia-Barcelona: 3.10 hrs.= 6.32 hrs.

This travel time is "not real" you must add the conexion time.

So my advice is to take de AVE Madrid-Barcelona.

Well, really if you take an Alvia (HST Madrid-Barcelona) you'll travel along the coast between Tarragona and Barcelona (about 100 km).

Here you can see an Alvia train on the Garraf coast.
http://67.15.20.45/images/images2/r/rp120alvia.jpg.72196.jpg

If you are really interested in travelling by train, you can take a night train too, the Estrella Costa Brava. It's quite old but it's also another possibility.

Well I think i'm doing AVE madrid to Barcelona, my travel agent was confusing me. In my itenarary it said about 4 hours or something, but she gave me a choice to travel inland or by the coast. I'm just confused

YES- alvia train is 3hours 55 minutes

YES- alvia train is 3hours 55 minutes
Only one direct ALViA per day takes 3h55min. The rest take 4h20min.
:yes:
In June 2007: 3h20min. --> ALViA
In December 2007: 2h30min. --> AVE
:wink2:
But high speed trains are more expensive than many flights...
:(

more expensive than meny flights???? or....always more expensive???????jejejejjejejeje

I speak English and Chinese, so what do you think that I will be welcomed in Spain, because I always want to live in Madrid for some years, or Barcerlona.

I speak English and Chinese, so what do you think that I will be welcomed in Spain, because I always want to live in Madrid for some years, or Barcerlona.
Of course you would be welcomed. Madrid and Barcelona are plenty of foreign people working or learning Spanish. Speaking Chinese can open you several doors in the labour market.

However, the language could be a problem in the daily life. There is only a few people above 50 years who can speak English properly. Between young people things are quite different, but you should learn the language if you want to adapt yourself completely to the Spanish life.

I speak English and Chinese, so what do you think that I will be welcomed in Spain, because I always want to live in Madrid for some years, or Barcerlona.
All young people (under 36y.o.) speak English in BCN or Madrid.
:yes:
Also in BCN, there is a big Chinese community.
;)
Anyway, I recommend you to learn Spanish!
:wink2:

Well in my itenarary it said: Madrid to Zaragoza to barcelona.
Do you think I would be travelling in the 'Talgo 350' and last question: What is the differnece between economy class (2nd) and first class on the trains?

Well in my itenarary it said: Madrid to Zaragoza to barcelona.
Do you think I would be travelling in the 'Talgo 350' and last question: What is the differnece between economy class (2nd) and first class on the trains?
I suppose you are taking an ALViA then. Bitxofo made a great thread about his travel between Madrid and Barcelona in that train. Here you are:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=427042

Some pics to show you the difference between classes:

Turist Class (2nd)

http://i12.tinypic.com/48yzlhh.jpg

http://i18.tinypic.com/2vwg4uc.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/2a5c8pk.jpg

Preferent Class (1st)

http://i14.tinypic.com/2u4ovps.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/2e68pd2.jpg

thanks! but I don't see much difference between turista classe and preferent classe?

Wow! I'm doing madrid-barcelona in April too! About the flights...so is it a good idea to reserve a seat ahead of time to save money? Or are the costs the same no matter how or where or when you get them? I've seen prices around 30 euros...which is like really cool. So what's the price if I just show up at the airport vs. buying it online or something?

book your flight!!!!!!!!! is you just go to the airport an take there the ticket it´s about 200€ return!

Wow! I'm doing madrid-barcelona in April too! About the flights...so is it a good idea to reserve a seat ahead of time to save money? Or are the costs the same no matter how or where or when you get them? I've seen prices around 30 euros...which is like really cool. So what's the price if I just show up at the airport vs. buying it online or something?
The earlier you book, the cheaper you fly!
:yes:
Madrid-BCN starting at 20 euros, tax included.
;)
Try:
www.vueling.com
www.travelprice.es
www.trabber.es
:wink2:

http://www.larazon.es/noticias/noti_mad2858.htm (Spanish) (http://www.larazon.es/noticias/noti_mad2858.htm)
A Mag-Lev will go through Madrid in ten minutes at 500Km/h.
Madrid’s Regional Government is studying joining the Airport and Alcalá de Henares with Chamartín in a record time.

Pilar Gómez/ La Razón
MADRID- A train that <<flies>>. That’s the Regional Government President’s dream, Esperanza Aguirre, who, after having put Madrid Metro network among the best three around the world, now plans to bring to Madrid the fastest train in railroad’s history, the Mag-Lev.
The project, which is still in informative studies and pending technical advice, has been rounding through President’s head several years. Actually, since Aguirre travelled to the Chinese city of Shanghai, where the only commercially-operated Mag-Lev is located being able to travel the 30km from downtown to the airport in seven minutes at a speed near to 500km/h.
Madrid goal’s are the same. Studies which are being carried out by the Regional Government aim to stablish some HSLs crossing in diagonal Madrid’s regional map.
ROUTES:
Geographical and technical studies are being carried out right now to evaluate the possibility of a Mag-Lev train that could link Campamento’s zone with Madrid-Barajas Airport in a time that will not surpass ten minutes.
Even more ambitious are the regional plans to build a big Mag-Lev line which could lie parallel to A-2 road and connect Alcalá de Henares y Torrejón with Chamartín station in less than five minutes. This will be a revolution in commuter traffic and mobility in Madrid’s regional area, and specifically in the route already mentioned will eliminate one of the main conflictive traffic spots to access the capital.
In addition to these possible itineraries, a track joining Madrid’s big suburbs in the outskirts is being considered in order to link them in a faster way than the underground offers right now.
Madrid’s metro network enlargement has already reduced travel times a little. However, while the network is getting bigger, it is also getting slower. The regional government argues this is the reason for considering an ultra rapid high tech transport like the Mag-Lev as a complement to the underground system.

...

The article carries on commenting Mag-Lev's technology, benefits and disadvantages, its initial elavated and luxury costs, and other projects around the globe as the one to join Gasgow and London, Munich and its airport or japnese JR-Maglev.

Too cool.

I am jealous! :)

could someone post a map---maybe a fast google earht based sketch, where the line would run?

could someone post a map---maybe a fast google earht based sketch, where the line would run?
It's too early to have a route as they have just showed their intentions. Anyway, these would be the lines which appear ub the article.

1- Campamento - Barajas Airport
2- Chamartin - Torrejon - Alcala de Henares

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e228/Steven_85/mad1-1.png?t=1181159583

A more general map of Madrid metropolitan area

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e228/Steven_85/mad2.png?t=1181159906

I am surprised with that, and I still don't think it's likely to be built. But when you talk about Madrid... I also thought Metro expansion planned was impossible and they showed I was wrong.

There are talks of a Glasgow-Edinburgh maglev as well. :)
Very nice way to travel I've heard.

to build MagLev for a 5min ride? are they kidding?? What sort of acceleration/speed are they talking! the train would have to be tottaly cleaned and deodorized after each run!

to build MagLev for a 5min ride? are they kidding?? What sort of acceleration/speed are they talking! the train would have to be tottaly cleaned and deodorized after each run!

lol :lol:

MagLev in Madrid?


yeah, of course...the same possibilities of the invasion of Aliens...:fiddle:

^^ ^^ pero qué envidiosa es la gente :lol:

wow!!!

^^ ^^ pero qué envidiosa es la gente :lol:

aridaje :lol:

MagLev in Madrid?


yeah, of course...the same possibilities of the invasion of Aliens...:fiddle:

Drugs don't make anything for your health, stop taking them :ohno:

Guys don´t be cruel and understand him, in some countries, to make something new when it´s about infrastructures, takes decades... if it´s ever done, so from their own experience in their home-countries they may be a bit sceptics. It´s normal.

double post

With all the mayor construction proyects I've seen going on in Spain, I'm not surprised that a Maglev is being considered. I'm not too sure on wether it's practical for the routes they are planning though. Anyway...Que Viva Espana!!!:)

Madrid-Barcelona high-speed rail link to open in December: PM

BARCELONA, Spain, Aug 2, 2007 (AFP) - A high-speed rail link between Madrid and Barcelona, Spain's second-largest city, will open on December 21, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Thursday.

"The works are developing at a good rhythm," he told reporters during a visit to Barcelona.

The high-speed line already connects the Spanish capital to Camp de Tarragona with crews now working to complete the last leg of the line to Barcelona in northeastern Spain.

The opening of the final leg will cut journey times from Madrid to Barcelona from just over four hours to 2.5 hours.

There are over 900 flights a week between Madrid and Barcelona, making it the busiest air route in the world according to global travel and transport information company OAG.

The opening of the high speed rail link between the two cities is expected to cut air traffic on the route.

A high-speed rail link has operated since April 1992 between Madrid and Seville in southwestern Spain.

So the train will be going 350km/h? If so, it's pretty damn fast...

^^That is the top speed the train can reach.
:yes:

Really, the objectif has always been link Madrid and Barcelona in 2 hours 30 minutes. It can be get with slower speed, and probably top speed will be used only to avoid delays -I think it happens also in Mediterranean HSL in France with the top speed of 320 kph-.

All young people (under 36y.o.) speak English in BCN or Madrid.

This is NOT true !

Well back in April I did this route, took 4 hours, but felt shorter, because it was so comfortable and the scenery was good. I went in preferent class (1st) Very nice. It's just so wierd to think that the time will practically be cut in half, the annoying part was when it was close to Barcelona, it had to go on suburban rail lines, and there was traffic etc.

All young people (under 36y.o.) speak English in BCN or Madrid.

That's definitely not true... hehe, I want to encourage people to visit Spain as much as you do, but come on, who were you trying to fool... :)

^^All young people in Spain studied English at Elemental School, so they are able to speak English.
;)

I was in Spain last April for 5 weeks. The only people I heard speak english were Americans, Canadians and the British.

^^All young people in Spain studied English at Elemental School, so they are able to speak English.
;)

I studied Japanese in Primary school here, and I hardly speak it.

the very few times I heard english (in spain), was from tourists or some spaniards with strong accents.

^^All young people in Spain studied English at Elemental School, so they are able to speak English.
;)


:ohno: Sometimes I think you live in your own little bubble. Please stop saying that, everyone knows it's false, including yourself.

Hi,guys
I have read some posts on this forum ,and know the Velaro E is now running at 300km/h in highspeed line. I just wonder if this train will speed up to 350km/h in near future.:cheers:
By far no train is running at 350km/h commercially.Has Siemens or RENFE tested the reliability and durability of the train's equp,like bogies,motors etc. at 350km/h?
And the Velaro E takes 380s to accelerate from 0 to 320km/h.what about 0 to 350km/h,how long will it take?

^^Velaro (made by Siemens) is currently running at 302km/h on the high speed line from Barcelona to Madrid.
:wink2:
It will run at 350km/h in October or November, on the same line.
:yes:
http://i36.tinypic.com/30280sg.jpg
:)

It won't go faster until ERTMS level 2 is implemented. Although Renfe says it will be in autumn, the team developing the signaling system (people from Renfe, Adif and Siemens) say the don't have a definitve date yet.
Anyway, test trains running on the Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona have already reached 360 km/h.

Hi,guys
I have read some posts on this forum ,and know the Velaro E is now running at 300km/h in highspeed line. I just wonder if this train will speed up to 350km/h in near future.:cheers:
By far no train is running at 350km/h commercially.Has Siemens or RENFE tested the reliability and durability of the train's equp,like bogies,motors etc. at 350km/h?
And the Velaro E takes 380s to accelerate from 0 to 320km/h.what about 0 to 350km/h,how long will it take?

The Velaro has been tested above 400km/h and its record it 408km/h. The bogies are fine for it, but I don't believe the design (for a stable maintenance regime) is ready for more than 330km/h in regular service, though I could be wrong. The main delay is the full implementation of the signalling system as Avientu said above.

I talked with Siemens engineers who did the tests of the train. They said that ADIF who was forbidden to increase that speed. The train can run more. Even in commercial service. But there are two problems: the signage and the flight of stone

The stone on the track is quite a big problem .
So the new track building in our country is just like the picture below,which will make speed higher.http://www.ourail.com/attachment.php?aid=288685&noupdate=yes pic copyright to oyzw.

Excuse my ignorance but, What´s exactly that "flight of stone" you guys talk about?

thanks in advance

BTW: clkgtr, no pic on display above, just a red cross.

air turbulance causing loose stones to be picked up and thrown at quite dangerous speeds. the new chinese lines don't use loose stone ballast so shouldn't have this problem - everything is solod concrete, which is more expensive in theory.

ahh, i see. thanks.

air turbulance causing loose stones to be picked up and thrown at quite dangerous speeds. the new chinese lines don't use loose stone ballast so shouldn't have this problem - everything is solod concrete, which is more expensive in theory.

The chinese use the japanese system for high speed, this system was designed in the 80´s

Wouldn't the problem be solved with something as easy as covering the stones with a simple net?

The chinese use the japanese system for high speed, this system was designed in the 80´s

Mainly we use German technology,here're the pics,thanks to the photographer oyzw
These tracks are expensive when building ,but the maintenance cost is much lower .
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2700198770_6a659a1388_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2019/2699381881_83a0369728_o.jpg

Wouldn't the problem be solved with something as easy as covering the stones with a simple net?

The japanese have already tried that and the outcome was that the cost of maintaining the infrastructure increase. Spain should have opted for the more expensive concrete trackbed, now they might not be able to run the trains att 350km/h only because of the flying stones.

Wouldn't the problem be solved with something as easy as covering the stones with a simple net?

The japanese use this in their oldest line, but this system is very expensive, a man must remove this net every two months.

Mainly we use German technology,here're the pics,thanks to the photographer oyzw
These tracks are expensive when building ,but the maintenance cost is much lower .
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2700198770_6a659a1388_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2019/2699381881_83a0369728_o.jpg

I don´t know very well the rails in China, I saw in another thread the japanese system in chinese rails.

In Spain, for the new tunnels and large bridges is used the Rheda 2000, and in some stations and the new tunnel under Madrid (large narrow, no UIC) the Edilon System

Very nice photos, thanks

I think we are already at around the limit for conventional railways in terms of speed - 320 km/h (199mph) is the current maximum on the LGV East Line in France. I can't see that 350km/h will be sufficiently advantageous economically to counteract the greater costs of operating at the higher speed.

^^


The main reason is to reduce travel time. And this is less to travel by plane for the same price.

The limit is no 320 or 350 km / h, the engineers don´t know this limit, and the Spanish engineers are working to resolve problems that appear to increase the speed

we are already at around the limit for conventional railways in terms of speed - 320 km/h (199mph)
More than half a century ago(if my memory served me correctly), there was exactly the same belief but with a different speed value (160kmph). Now trains run at twice that speed and more economically

Video from the construction of the underground station Sol


TtKm9cRp3b0

Confirmado por Fomento:


http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/F5BFE423-1D9F-4493-A6A4-A77B4C8F3C3D/35830/08052901.pdf

Algunas imágenes de la nota de prensa:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8858/atocha-chamartin1.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7048/sol3.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7353/secciontransversal.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8613/sol1.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7427/sol4.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1615/sol2.jpg

...

Unas fotos de las obras, elpais.es

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9384/20080529elpepunac34bf3.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8532/20080529elpepunac28ly1.jpg

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6154/20080529elpepunac26zg7.jpg

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/410/20080529elpepunac27cd0.jpg

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/2527/20080529elpepunac24jq3.jpg

More...

Alguna foto nueva de la estación de Sol:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8302/big1104121207476466e5d8he8.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7507/big1104121207485066ea1dwl8.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9448/big1104121207491366f5a7pd3.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8448/big1104121207496966ff79ts8.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4051/big11041212075042670715jn7.jpg

madridiario.es

and the last

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1527/20080529elpepunac25by1.jpg

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9050/20080529elpepunac35wq6.jpg

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4892/20080529elpepunac29ie7.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8872/20080529elpepunac23tz7.jpg

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9894/20080529elpepunac32pw9.jpg

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9756/20080529elpepunac31fo5.jpg

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/4488/20080529elpepunac30bc1.jpg

New map of the rail network in Madrid. With the new tunnel under the city centre

http://perruca.tranvia.org/mapag.jpg

The german system at the Cologne–Frankfurt line:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Wahnscheid-Dickheck.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Elzer_Berg_Nord.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/ICE3_Dernbachertunnel.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Tunnel_Kluse.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Windhagen_Nord.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Verkehrswegeb%C3%BCndelung_KRM.jpg/800px-Verkehrswegeb%C3%BCndelung_KRM.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Talbr%C3%BCcke_Eisenbach.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Kaputte_L%C3%A4rmschutzwand.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Hallerbach-_und_Wiedtalbr%C3%BCcke.jpg


Sonic absorber:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Schallabsorber_KRM.jpg

wonderfull video...very interesting....incredible how they could build such a huge satation without the rest of the people overground noticing a hint of it....

The first video is the test in the Pajares Port towing a train of thousand tons of weight

Las pruebas que se estan llevando a cabo por Alcazar, Avila y Pajares, de miedo! happy:

Las de Pajares sublimes. Ya ha remolcado el pasado fin de semana 1.000 Tm bajo la lluvia con holgura.
Y este video con un tren de 621m y carril mojado... :drool:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/msPdDd-wK6Y&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/msPdDd-wK6Y&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


Ahora os pongo un reportaje fotografico de la visita que nos hizo la semana pasada la 253.001 a Avila, en pruebas dinamicas entre Zarzalejo y Mingorria, como comentaban mas arriba, tambien con resultado satisfactorio.


Lunes, 12 de Mayo

La maquina con la composicion recien llegada de Leon
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4076/dscf2858cl3.th.jpg (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2858cl3.jpg)

Repasemos la composicion de pruebas. Momento historico tambien, la japo con los coches convencionales.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3844/dscf2835am6.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2835am6.jpg)

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3990/dscf2837ov6.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2837ov6.jpg)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7609/dscf2838ua3.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2838ua3.jpg)

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8952/dscf2841jq6.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2841jq6.jpg)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8168/dscf2842co7.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2842co7.jpg)

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6018/dscf2843ac5.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2843ac5.jpg)

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1025/dscf2844ys6.th.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2844ys6.jpg)

Ahora, veamos detalles tecnicos de la locomotora, con toda la parafernalia del cableado y los equipos de medicion.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8590/dscf2846rj1.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2846rj1.jpg)

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4772/dscf2864yd7.th.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2864yd7.jpg)

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5382/dsc00115li5.th.jpg (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00115li5.jpg)

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7967/dsc00119jr7.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00119jr7.jpg)

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/4674/dsc00120jv3.th.jpg (http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00120jv3.jpg)

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/3227/dsc00122vp3.th.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00122vp3.jpg)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3715/dsc00123qp9.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00123qp9.jpg)


Jueves, 15 de Mayo

En esa fecha nos visito a mediodia la 253.002 (la del video en pajares), que venia con la 252.040 desde Alcazar, en su camino hacia Leon y Asturias.
En Avila, intercambiaron las maquinas de apoyo.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/678/dscf2905bva0.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2905bva0.jpg)

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2751/dscf2901btv8.th.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2901btv8.jpg)

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/221/dscf2896mr1.th.jpg (http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2896mr1.jpg)

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/2540/dscf2917pj8.th.jpg (http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2917pj8.jpg)

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/6265/dscf2918mj0.th.jpg (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2918mj0.jpg)


Y para finalizar, detalle que seguia portando la 5240 xD
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/9233/dscf2897xv1.th.jpg (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf2897xv1.jpg)

Horas mas tarde, la composicion de pruebas por nuestra zona, nos abandonaba camino de un merecido descanso en Madrid.


Bueno, espero que os haya gustado el reportaje de estas pruebas por tierras castellanas, para una de estas prometedoras locomotoras para mercancias. :)

LyX-qYjVqyE

Mainly we use German technology,here're the pics,thanks to the photographer oyzw
These tracks are expensive when building ,but the maintenance cost is much lower .
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/2700198770_6a659a1388_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2019/2699381881_83a0369728_o.jpgWhy are the tracks layed on a concrete surface instead of stones?

oo man, please read a few post above the pictures....

Mainly we use German technology,here're the pics,thanks to the photographer oyzw
These tracks are expensive when building ,but the maintenance cost is much lower .Why is that?

And at what speed does flying stones become a problem? TGV dont use a concrete surface as far as I know.

^^Flying stones can become a problem at 350km/h, in Spanish AVE trains.
:runaway:

Why is that?

And at what speed does flying stones become a problem? TGV dont use a concrete surface as far as I know.

Actually,if the concrete track is not damaged,it does not need maintenance.

Rail transport in Spain

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rail transport in Spain operates on four rail gauges and services are operated by a variety of private and public operators. The total route length in 2004 was 14,781 km (8,791 km electrified):[1]

broad gauge (1668 mm): 11,829 km (6,950 km electrified at 3 kV DC)
Metro de Madrid gauge (1445 mm) 281,780km (all electrified at 750 V and 1500 V DC)
standard gauge (1435 mm): 998 km (all electrified at 25 kV AC)
narrow gauge (1000 mm): 1,926 km (815 km electrified)
narrow gauge (914 mm): 28 km (all electrified)

Most railways are operated by RENFE; narrow-gauge lines are operated by FEVE and other carriers in individual autonomous communities. It is proposed to build or convert more standard-gauge lines, including some dual gauging of broad-gauge lines, especially where these lines link to adjacent countries.

History

Development

The first line to be built in the Peninsula was a short link from Barcelona to Mataró opened in 1848, although by that date a line was already working in Cuba - then part of the Spanish empire. It was not until laws were passed in the 1850s making railway investment more attractive to foreign capital, that railway building on a large scale began.

One major misfortune was the decision, taken at an early stage, that Spain's railways should be built to an unusual broad track gauge of 1674 mm (roughly 5 ft 6 in, or six Castilian feet). Some believe that the choice of gauge was influenced by Spain's hostility to neighbouring France during the 1850s: it was believed that making the Spanish railway network incompatible with that of France would hinder any French invasion. Other sources state that that decision was taken to allow bigger engines that could have enough power to climb the steep passes in the second most mountainous country of Europe. As a result, Portuguese railways were also built to a broad gauge (roughly the same, 1664 mm, but rounded to a Portuguese unit). Spain and Portugal have since rounded their gauge to 1668 mm.

During the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s the railway network was extensively damaged. Immediately after the war the Franco regime nationalized the broad gauge network, and in 1941 RENFE was formed. Narrow gauge lines were nationalized in the 1950s, later being grouped to form FEVE.

Following the decentralization of Spain after 1978, those narrow gauge lines which did not cross the limits of autonomous communities of Spain were taken out of the control of FEVE and transferred to the regional governments.

The Railway Sector Act of 2003 separated the management, maintenance and construction of rail infrastructure from train operation. The first activity is now the responsibility of a new public company, Administrador de Infrestructuras Ferroviarias (ADIF), while Renfe (full name: Renfe Operadora) owns the rolling-stock and remains responsible for the planning, marketing and operation of passenger and freight services (though no longer with a legal monopoly).

In 1992 a standard gauge high-speed rail line (AVE) was built between Madrid and Sevilla. In 2003 high-speed service was inaugurated on a new line from Madrid to Lérida and extended to Barcelona in 2008, the same year the lines from Madrid to Valladolid and from Córdoba to Málaga were inaugurated.

The Madrid-Barcelona line is being extended onwards via an international tunnel beneath the Pyrenees to Perpignan where it will link up with the French TGV high-speed system. Delays on the part of the French government in authorizing construction on its side of the border have held up Spanish plans to some extent, however. Further high-speed links are under construction from Seville to Cadiz, from Madrid to Valencia and to Lisbon. The Basque Y, also under construction, will link the three Basque cities.

Suburban trains (Renfe Cercanías)

Serie 440

440

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/201640607_5f5dfe0397.jpg?v=0



440R (reformada)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3068/2902012430_8355632789.jpg?v=0

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

Serie 446

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/113427949_312977e33c.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/42/114072137_2c8f209a3f.jpg?v=1142681600

Serie 447

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3098/2370777619_9e7ed69497.jpg?v=1220083439

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2177/1699957418_e240258529.jpg?v=0

Serie 450

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1349/544441716_69890383a6.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2231/2109839617_76c05d6495.jpg?v=0

Serie 451

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1103/1347483653_d5d4b82ae4.jpg?v=1223159135

Civia Serie 461 / 462 / 463 / 464 / 465

463

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2286/2371619172_d6a8fda91e.jpg?v=1214943961

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2579598655_db51efd973.jpg?v=0

447 versus Civia

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3209/2972442736_1d67b7b225.jpg?v=0

Serie 592

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/446516144_fa52dcafc9.jpg?v=0

Atocha Cercanías

The heart of the Madrid suburban trains

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2242/2413771435_4f51a283e1.jpg?v=0

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

By flickr

^^ great work arriaca.. :okay:

:applause: wonderful thread. plase send more infor and photo...

Media Distancia


Serie 432

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3200/2733694842_544dca8e1d.jpg

Serie 444

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2638464897_f840679dae_o.jpg

Serie 448R

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2646821387_1736eef25e_o.jpg

Serie 470

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2830048363_e112295f08_o.jpg

Serie 121 (new train, for HSL and conventional lines)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2862801315_f79b77cc02_o.jpg

Serie 449 (new train)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3270/2957607123_ef935ae4e4_o.jpg


Serie 592

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/2878435101_a83b146874_o.jpg

592.201 “El atómico”

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3074/2891968492_dc7b39ff57_o.jpg

Serie 594 (tilting train)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2804521480_5326f4091d_b.jpg

Serie 596 (Motor of 593)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2806895316_8c54578c4a_o.jpg

Serie 598

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/2405746897_f3a4e65dc2_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2938703099_666d8f85ed_o.jpg

Serie 599 (new train)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2957600355_ec93214d4e_o.jpg

444 versus 448

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/2638153083_620be89e2c_o.jpg


592 versus 598

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2822458340_31f424dbf3_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2188/2405748149_523bef0f36_b.jpg

Fotos de Flickr

very impressive photos... :okay: please keep posting.

Ok

The next will be Larga Distancia

please don't forget the interrior pix ...

Larga Distancia

Talgo trains

Serie 2

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/392254853_42fbd6249f_b.jpg

This train is not in use, but is very nice. :P

Serie 3

Since 1964

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2032/2261104616_bb534f5db7_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2985671992_fe33c20a65_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1264/1397411283_5707ce19f2_o.jpg



Serie 3 RD

For international service with two gauges


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3161/2934803839_9376f48a98_o.jpg



Serie 4

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3028/2560160321_55bacd58a0_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2666949985_c56a1167b1_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/106/309611617_d6b10f2382_b.jpg

Serie 5 TrenHotel

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2844698915_535ee294a2_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2792908236_715ed2b3f5_o.jpg


Serie 6 (Talgo 200)

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

Max. speed 200 km / h

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jiesnarr/2681694635/sizes/o/


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/2721064554_2a9ec23e53_o.jpg



Serie 6 TrenHotel

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

Max. speed 200 km / h

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3074/2454377841_49dd7b0542_o.jpg

Serie 7

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

Max. speed 200 km / h

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2025/2377017180_e07d24da9a_o.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

This cars will be all Serie 130

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2068/2223220385_26bf05bdd2_o.jpg

Serie 7 TrenHotel

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2595822876_1b6a6e6c28_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1363/1365075182_4fd0da0a92_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1120/1365075144_8657c32a2e_o.jpg


Bonus ;)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2387/2423767508_03f4375707_o.jpg

Cafeteria. I don´t know the serie

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2250/2379646396_a9501a7792_o.jpg

By flickr

:applause: wonderful representation ... it is very teaching... thank you very much for this wonderful effort.

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By Flickr

super station... could you show the others?

...

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

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http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

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http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

By Flickr

is it the main station of Barcelona?

No, its Barcelona Francia, "French Station". The main station is Barcelona Sants, a rather ugly underground station.

why its name is like this, because of its destinations to France?

I found some pictures of Barcelona Sants... I addtion to this beausetiful thread... Barcelona Sants looks like airport

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/aeria_bcnsants.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/vestibul_sants.gif

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080222062.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080222065.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080222059.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080304024.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080304024.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080223016.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080223022.jpg

http://www.trenscat.com/renfe/images/bcnsants/P080223011.jpg

super station... could you show the others?

to serve.. ;)

two different stations in Bilbao..

thanks to pampero (http://www.panoramio.com/user/19687), Panoramio..

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/1712317.jpg

thanks to SUECSUECSUEC (http://www.flickr.com/people/54935267@N00/), flickr..

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1404/1233731985_2f89f19d60_b.jpg

why did Renfe buy German ICE's?

why did Renfe buy German ICE's?

Not only did they buy German trains but all the HSR lines are built with German technical assistance. Basically all the technical installations are of German origin.

Spain uses technology German, French and other countries as well as developing its own technology. You should know better.


In fact, the wording of the draft HSL California is going to make a Spanish company (Ineco - Typsa).

Siemenes developing an evolution of the ICE for Renfe, faster and more powerful than the German ICE.

Not only did they buy German trains but all the HSR lines are built with German technical assistance. Basically all the technical installations are of German origin.

like how we are building ours with Spanish technical assistance. Germany and France helped you and you and Korea are helping us...

Actually although we are following you behind, we are copying Spanish Railways Development with its everything.

Nice pics, amagaldu and Kuvvaci. More photos about Abando Station in Bilbao.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/2552517331_8c519f0413_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/2552513321_b412a48c61_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2547421809_516bd3ac03_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3224/2778919455_099fe2a11c_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2605093452_8622ffab7f_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/2658377635_c82db3850a_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3265/2359514456_42f1373dda_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/2875141710_4a9691afd5_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2113/2405177808_50a8f023b3_b.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

Amagaldu post photos about two stations: Bilbao - Abando (Adif station Iberian gauge) and Concordia Station (FEVE station narrow or metric gauge)

In this photo, you can see both, the big one are Abando, and on the right, a small station near the river is Concordia

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/179042571_bf3bcac69a_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2159/2081357845_374281b8f2_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/106803956_3d5284ac8f_o.jpg

Offtopic...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2388184646_459c8e9d56_o.jpg

By flickr

Spain uses technology German, French and other countries as well as developing its own technology. You should know better.


In fact, the wording of the draft HSL California is going to make a Spanish company (Ineco - Typsa).

Siemenes developing an evolution of the ICE for Renfe, faster and more powerful than the German ICE.

Does CAF also use German technology for its highspeed trains and what about Talgo?

No, the CAF and Talgo HST, do not use German technology.

No, its Barcelona Francia, "French Station". The main station is Barcelona Sants, a rather ugly underground station.
Estació de França, which means France Station.
:yes:
why its name is like this, because of its destinations to France?
Because trains to French border left from that station until 1991. Now TALGO (train-hotel) from Barcelona to Paris departs from Estació de França.
;)
France Station is one of the most beautiful old stations in Europe!
:drool:
Thanks for the photos ARRi!
:bowtie:

France Station is one of the most beautiful old stations in Europe!


^^ proofs..!! :horse:


:wink2:

This was the main station for trains to and from the north and northwest of Spain.

After the construction of Chamartin, became Suburban Station, and now is one of five interchanges, where people entering or leaving Madrid, can change their mode of transport, since that match the train station, with The three Metro lines and a new intercity bus station...


And a shopping mall :)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2601992042_4d7493965c_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/1777334639_511ba63391_b.jpg

Suburban train station

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2871781065_a3a61864c7_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3251/2872612696_9921aa9a04_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/2918425663_97c99fab98_b.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/22/27491844_778a307cf3_o.jpg

Tunnel to Atocha Station

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2347/2529416270_dc1bc2951f_o.jpg

Railway bridge over the Metro station

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3015/2528597071_6ee21031d2_o.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

Metro station

Under the Railway station run the Metro

Railway bridge and Metro station (lines 6 and 10)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/181/405595300_ec3735bc65_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/3016462827_55082c4b66_o.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2009/2291422095_ab32b60133_b.jpg

Shopping mall

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1049/953007289_e94a85e6ab_o.jpg

Bus station

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1104/872519697_a4ec64975e_b.jpg

very nice station... access to the bus station is very nice... was the mall a part of the station in the past?

^^


The shopping center occupies a portion of the platforms and tracks of the station which is no longer used

Railway network

ADIF (Administrador de Infraestructuras ferroviarias) is the railway transport authority in Spain, except narrow gauge and the lines that manage regional governments.

Spanish railway network (2005)


Railway lines (km):

High Speed lines: 953,07 Km

Iberian gauge: 12.164,56 Km

TOTAL: 13.117,63 Km


Equipment:



Electrified single track: 3.656,8 Km.

No electrified single track: 5.517,9 Km.

Electrified double track: 3.913 Km.

Non electrified double track: 29,9 Km.

Source and more info about signaling: http://www.adif.es/empresa/index_circulacion.html

^^ That's old data, you find newer data in the 2008 network statement pdf.

High Speed Network (International Gauge) 1563km
Conventional Network (Conventional Gauge) 11,736km
Mixed Network (Conventional - International Gauge) 21km
Narrow Gauge Network (Metric Gauge) 18km

Single Electrified Track 3,601km
Non Electrified Single Track 5,210km
Double Electrified Track 4,450km
Non Double Electrified Track 56 (actually 67km as of now, all on the future Galician HSR axis)

Speed equal to or over 250 km/h 1247km
Speed between 200 km/h and 250 km/h 487km
Speed between 160 and 200 km/h 215km
Speed between 140 and 160 km/h 4,725km
Speed between 100 and 140 km/h 3,601km
Speed less than 100 km/h 3,063km

could you please post more station photos?..

^^ That's old data, you find newer data in the 2008 network statement pdf.

High Speed Network (International Gauge) 1563km
Conventional Network (Conventional Gauge) 11,736km
Mixed Network (Conventional - International Gauge) 21km
Narrow Gauge Network (Metric Gauge) 18km

Single Electrified Track 3,601km
Non Electrified Single Track 5,210km
Double Electrified Track 4,450km
Non Double Electrified Track 56 (actually 67km as of now, all on the future Galician HSR axis)

Speed equal to or over 250 km/h 1247km
Speed between 200 km/h and 250 km/h 487km
Speed between 160 and 200 km/h 215km
Speed between 140 and 160 km/h 4,725km
Speed between 100 and 140 km/h 3,601km
Speed less than 100 km/h 3,063km
TOTAL: 13,338 km. of railways in Spain.
:)

could you please post more station photos?..

Ok :)


Sigüenza (Guadalajara)

A beautifull station and village. Line Madrid - Barcelona - Francia

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2177/2502020897_b88b231348_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3072/2575688440_546fc1ba21_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2503256540_24d635cee3_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3097/2783927493_a830bd8e00_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/2575521452_b0c7579226.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2574696593_1b56ffb340_b.jpg

By flickr

very nice... I like such stations.

Canfranc Estación

This small village (altitude 1190 m.) was largely created due to the inauguration of a railroad crossing the Pyrenees on 18 July 1928. The trains continued running until an international train accident destroyed the bridge at nearby L'Estanguet and severed the link on March 27, 1970. Canfranc Estación is most well known due to the rumours of "German gold" arriving here during World War II (see external link below). Also, British espionage smuggled information and people from Vichy France to the consulate in San Sebastián through Canfranc since the nearer Irún bordered with occupied France. The train station is the highlight of the village and was used during the filming of Doctor Zhivago. There has been talk for some time of reopening international train traffic between France and Spain, but until that time the area is profiting from its nearness to the ski resorts of Candanchú and Astún. The current population is 454.

The tunnel is being used for the Laboratorio subterráneo de Canfranc (Canfranc underground laboratory).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canfranc


It is located in the Pyrenees, near the French border. And is connected to the network by a French railroad tunnel UIC gauge which is now closed and used as a laboratory.

Both the French and the Spanish railway line are single track, in different width and the French side was electrified.

In Canfranc, there was the transhipment of passengers, trains were divided into wide UIC beside the main building of this ibérico and width on the east side. In the main building, in addition to sell tickets and be located the passport office had a luxury hotel.

Since the closure of the line from the French side, the station just dying with a few train services.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/2326073799_d7d574dc62_o.jpg

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Río Aragón and the station

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/14/20105081_7fd063d6f0_o.jpg

By flickr

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The building actually

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^^ wow..!!

incredible the contrast between the spanish and the french side..

stunning, abolutelly stunning..

why it is not restorated. It is a dimond, I'd like to be there!

la estacion se está reconvirtiendo para albergar un hotel de lujo y es realmente impresionante...
y no hay en las fotos lado frances....todo eso esta en territorio español lo que pasa es que en algunas fotos ya esta tapada la estacion con andamios por el proceso de restauracion y parece otro sitio...

lo mas importante es que la estacion se dignificara todo lo que se merece y ya se han dado pasos desde los gobiernos frances y aragones para poner de nuevo en funcionamiento el paso transfronterizo por el tunel del somport y esta estacion


lo sinto...pero el ingles lo suelo entender...pero escribirlo a mi se me da fatal...

^^

Ok, I wrote "side french", I tried to say the zone with UIC gauge, when the French trains arrived.

Some videos of the different kinds of trains in Spain!!

I'll start with Talgo trainsets!! maybe the most famous spanish trains...


Talgo III...This is the Talgo "Miguel de Unamuno"...it runs between Barcelona Sants to Salamanca, Irun and Bilbao...Now runs with the Serie 252 loco at 160kmh apx!


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Here, with the 269 loco!


oNTqKDMvAYU


And here with the new diesel loco, serie 334!


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Now, some videos of the Talgo IV...now its replacing some services of the serie III...and also have been replaced by modern trains in other routes...

This video is taked at Pinar de Antequera, near Valladolid, this train did Alicante-Santander service, now a Renfe S130 do this travel!


5tM-uitMTJM


Another leaving Medina station...


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The Talgo VI, is for me one of the best looking trains in Spain...and maybe the best looking talgos, for me...above the "TrenHotel" with Talgo VI cars...that's beautiful!!


Talgo VI "Marenostrum" from Cartagena to Montpellier (france)...near Barcelona!


VaQy9N-xWlQ


Talgo VI "Garcia Lorca" from Lorca to Barcelona near Valencia!


TMR5A4u7mvQ


Now its turn for the nice trainhotel!!

Trainhotel "Francisco de Goya" Madrid-Paris - Talgo VI


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7WkFedZY_zM


Trainhotel "Joan Miró" Barcelona-Paris - Talgo VI


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Trainhotel A Coruña-Madrid!


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Trainhotel "Lusitania" Madrid-Lisboa with the new deliverie for a Talgo VI!


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Trainhotel "Antonio Machado" Barcelona-Granada/Malaga!


Xf1yv5tQAaw

Canfranc station is absolutely stunning!!
:drool::drool:

Thanks sdf11 ;)

Yesterday the last train crossed the city of Burgos. The tracks were there since 1862 , with the trains disturbing the neighbours. A new bypass north of the city was opened. This is how the people celebrated (Yes, we celebrate everything in Spain :D ).

3OfkB6_UhzE

crA6kg9mRME

jajajajaa!!! Nice videos Ciceron!!! some photos about the new AVE/Conventional Trains Burgos station!! I think that it is very nice!!


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One of the Barcelona arrivals...nice foto of Sanlucar-Playa


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Are the Velaros now running at 350km/h on the Madrid - Barcelona line??

Are the Velaros now running at 350km/h on the Madrid - Barcelona line??

No, they have yet to install ERTMS level 2. The only line in Spain that is authorized for 350km/h service is Madrid-Valladolid, although no timetabled service exceed 300km/h yet.

^^ Yeah, that makes sense: the line to Valladolid is - until one day it is prolonged toward Galicia, the Basque Country and so on - not long enough to make it worth their while to raise the speed. How much difference would 350 km/h instead of 300 km/h make? You could probably count the minutes saved on one hand.

The Chinese CRH3 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRH3 ] is a wider version of Velaro. Both CRH2 (based on Japanese Shinkansen) and CRH3 (based on German ICE) serve the Beijing-Tianjin line [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing-Tianjin_Intercity_Rail ]. 14 trainset are serving the line presently (CRH2-061C to -066C, CRH3-001C, 002A, 004A, 005C, 006C, and recently 007C and 008C) The line was opened on August 1. They claimed its operational speed is 350 km/h, and I saw it ran at up to 352 km/h on the first ten days. According to my GPS, it started to slow down to a maximum speed of 340 km/h from August 11, and now seems at a maximum speed of 335 km/h. I take this train almost every day and have about one hundred GPS records. I can post them somewhere if anyone is interested in the records.

(They line was suffered from a bad snow in mid-December, and trains slowed down to 290 km/h on the following two days, but trains were only 2 minutes late, so 300 km/h or 350 km/h seems make very little difference in travel time)

^^ Interesting.


By the way, what a nice pics in this thread :D

I've been few times on the Tianjin-Beijin line and personally noticed top speed (on teh display in the trains (both Velaro CN and Kawasaki) of 349 km/h.
One thing you have to take into consideration is that during morning rush hour the interval between trains running at such a brake neck speed could be as short as 6 minutes!!!
All-in-all Beijing-Tianjin line is currently fastest in the world. At this speed ride is extremely smooth and quiet. Much more so than Maglev one in Shanghai.
Comparing two I see the reason why highspeed line between Beijing and Shanghai at teh end had been built with conventional rail technology.

So ERTMS II not started yet but slowly they already prepare to upgrade to 380 kmh with the future Talgo AVRIL.

http://www.altavelocidad.org/tecnica/515-lo-nuevo-de-talgo-se-llama-avril
in spanish
http://www.elperiodico.com/EDICION/ED081005/CAS/CARP01/PDF/g024mR99.PDF

Look for more sources to see veracity
Wait and see

380 kmh is impressive, but given that aerodynamic drag and energy consumption are proportional to square of speed I wonder if that would be profitable.

1- In china they seem to use both the german and the japanese concrete trackbed systems

2- Renfe doesn't need to rush the operations at 350km/h precisely because of the same question that the chinese are facing ... go too fast all the way and you have a great time to "kill" at the end of the journey. :cheers:

380 kmh is impressive, but given that aerodynamic drag and energy consumption are proportional to square of speed I wonder if that would be profitable.

My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.

My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.

Interesting that although the Chinese are aiming for 370 km/h for future high speed lines,the more experienced Japanese have decided to limit the production version of the Fastech 360 to 320km/h.

Interesting that although the Chinese are aiming for 370 km/h for future high speed lines,the more experienced Japanese have decided to limit the production version of the Fastech 360 to 320km/h.

The main reason to limit Fastech 360 to 320kph is the noise level.
But in China ,this is not as strict as in Japan.The distance between Beijing and Shanghai is 1318km,in order to control the travel time less than 4 hours including some intermediate stops,it is necessary to speed up to 380kph,so that highspeed train can compete with air planes.

My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.

Although energy consumption is a big factor, there is also heat build up to consider.
It's like CPU's in your PC, the more energy you feed into your PC to overclock, heat builds up within the CPU due to resistance resulting to frying itself.
The Fastech 360 already utilizing water shielding to cool the motors.
Other options are to freeze the machine, develop superconductors as stronger magnets or both which is what Japan is doing right now to develop maglevs.
From these points I believe conventional rail has reached it's technological potential.

If going from 300km/h to 350km/h makes the service unprofitable, how do airlines make any money?

People said the same thing about going to 200, 250 and 300km/h. This is no different.

Airplanes and trains are totaly different, you cannot compare them like that. It's just kind of stupid to do so.

And, as a matter of fact, Airlines have a hard time to make money. The % of profit is very small in this business in general.

Screw 350 km/h - 360 km/h is a far, far nicer number (100 m/s) :)

My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.

If 350km/h is "stretching" it too far what would you call to a maglev as "over 350" or even a plane ???

if HSR at 350 or above is costly what alternative do you porpose to it ??? :lol:

please post new photos.

Madrid have two main stations Atocha and Chamartin. Chamartin was built on the twentieth century to supplied the Estación del Norte.

Actually is the main station for the trains to the north and northwest. And is the terminal station of the HSL Madrid - Valladolid


1968

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The same station, another trains

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Actually

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The Duck and the little duck on the UIC gauge tracks

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Suburban trains on Chamartin

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Chamartin Metro Station

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Málaga-Barcelona in Ave-S-102 Talgo-Bombardier. Stop in 6 new Stations.AntequeraSta.Ana.Puente Genil.Cordoba.Zaragoza.Lerida,Tarragona and finaly Barcelona, 5,20h.for 1.137 kilometer.Very confortable and c

Mälaga Station Maria Zambrano.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9494/img0018k.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0018k.jpg)

]Málaga-Barcelona in Ave-S-102 Talgo-Bombardier. Stop in 6 new Stations.AntequeraSta.Ana.Puente Genil.Cordoba.Zaragoza.Lerida,Tarragona and finaly Barcelona, 5,20h.for 1.137 kilometer.Very confortable and c

Mälaga Station Maria Zambrano.
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]Málaga-Barcelona in Ave-S-102 Talgo-Bombardier. Stop in 6 new Stations.AntequeraSta.Ana.Puente Genil.Cordoba.Zaragoza.Lerida,Tarragona and finaly Barcelona, 5,20h.for 1.137 kilometer.Very confortable and c

Mälaga Station Maria Zambrano.
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HSL Málaga-Barcelona.
Barcelona-Sans Station

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Velaro E aka S-103 is really a beauty.

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Mayb bule like this panorama version of his pics.

Do you have to go through Madrid on the Malaga-Barcelona route?

Do you have to go through Madrid on the Malaga-Barcelona route?

Not anymore!
There is a recently opened by-pass outside Madrid now. It´s aprox. 5 km long and is a direct connection between the Mad-Bar and the Mad-Mal/Sev lines. So trains between the Northeast and the South of the country needn´t drive into Atocha station anymore. That means less allover distance and, especially, less time.
As said in this thread, the full distance between Barcelona and Malaga / Sevilla is over 1100 kms and takes about 5 hours and a half. But imagine how travel times will be cut when speed 350 km/h is achieved in the future on many long flat stretches of the route!

nice
put also here some information...e.g.:lengt,cost,plan for future projects...etc..

Not anymore!
There is a recently opened by-pass outside Madrid now. It´s aprox. 5 km long and is a direct connection between the Mad-Bar and the Mad-Mal/Sev lines. So trains between the Northeast and the South of the country needn´t drive into Atocha station anymore. That means less allover distance and, especially, less time.
As said in this thread, the full distance between Barcelona and Malaga / Sevilla is over 1100 kms and takes about 5 hours and a half. But imagine how travel times will be cut when speed 350 km/h is achieved in the future on many long flat stretches of the route!

Oh, that is great news! I hadn't heard about the Madrid bypass. How fast do AVE trains travel on the Malaga-Barcelona route now?

I´ve travel Málaga-Barcelona and way back 3 times,in AVE-S-102 Talgo.
It stops in 6 news Stations. Antequera,PuenteGenil.Cordoba,Zaragoza,Lerida.Tarragona and finally Barcelona.It Takes from 5,15 to 5,30 houres for 1.137 Kilometer.I´ve paid 90E one way in Club class,including launch,wine and cofee.

I´ve travel Málaga-Barcelona and way back 3 times,in AVE-S-102 Talgo.
It stops in 6 news Stations. Antequera,PuenteGenil.Cordoba,Zaragoza,Lerida.Tarragona and finally Barcelona.It Takes from 5,15 to 5,30 houres for 1.137 Kilometer.I´ve paid 90E one way in Club class,including launch,wine and cofee.

That sounds like a pretty good deal.:)

...

Does anyone know of any figures for the route length of all railways when they were at their peak?

Don't know if this would have been in the 1920s or maybe after WW2 but keen to hear from any RENFE/Spanish rail fans who might know the approximate figure??

Cheers,

Mark

PS Just done a quick count up of 15,492km according to an old railway Directory Year Book (including the FEVEs and industrial lines but not the Metro's/trams) circa mid 1970's - sound about right? Or were there thousands more km shut before that?

^^

Ok You can do a search with google like this

http://www.google.es/search?q=evolucion+de+la+red+de+ferrocarriles&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&client=firefox-a

I found this document http://indicadores-movilidad.racc.es/uploads/20090217/EVOLUCION_RED_FERROVIARIA_ESPANYA.pdf

Año Vía ancha Vía estrecha Total
1959 13.444 4.695 18.139
1984 13.590 2.192 15.782
1985 12.710 2.292 15.002
2007 13.368 2.191 15.559

Sadly two people were killed (I think the truck driver may have been one I'm not sure)

but I gotta say this train held together really well (for hitting such an absolutely (loaded) enormous machine), It's good to see europe is building better and tougher trains.


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Article
http://www.elperiodicoextremadura.com/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=530775&page=2

It's good to see europe is building better and tougher trains.
You can thank UIC crashworthiness standard for this.

Likewise, the lowest crashworthiness standard the US HSR projects should accept is UIC. Shinkansen's positive traffic control won't do you any good in an accident like this.

El choque de un tren y un camión junto a Carmonita deja dos muertos y 10 heridos

Los fallecidos son el conductor del camión, de 25 años, y una pasajera de 19 años, ambos vecinos de Mérida.Se investiga por qué el camionero cruzó un paso a nivel que debía estar cerrado desde que el tren dejó Cáceres.

07/09/2010

Uno de los vagones dañados tras el choque del tren con el camión dumper, con varios bomberos.

Eran las 12.30 horas de ayer. Eduardo Durán Cidoncha, de 25 años, se disponía, como hace habitualmente, a echar a un vertedero la carga del camión dumper que conducía procedente de las obras del tren de alta velocidad entre Cáceres y Mérida a la altura de la localidad de Carmonita. Para ello, tiene que cruzar la vía del tren que une Madrid con la capital extremeña en este punto y, por circunstancias que se están investigando, lo hace justo en el instante en que pasaba el tren modelo 598 que había salido 45 minutos antes de Cáceres y debía llegar a Mérida un cuarto de hora después. El impacto es brutal y el camión, tras ser levantado, golpea, rebotando, diversas zonas del tren, y queda suspendido por la parte delantera a mitad del convoy. Dentro del tren iba Olga Núñez del Viejo, una joven de 19 años, que fallece en el accidente, al igual que el conductor del camión, ambos residentes en Mérida.

El suceso deja con heridas más graves al maquinista y nueve heridos más de diversa consideración, entre ellos dos hermanos de 3 y 7 años. Al cierre de esta información, tres estaban ingresados en hospitales de Mérida y Cáceres, y el pequeño de 3 años fue trasladado grave a Salamanca tras ser operado en Caceres.

Ahora, Renfe, Adif y el Ministerio de Fomento investigan por qué pudo cruzar la vía el camión. Según ha podido saber EL PERIODICO, hay un paso a nivel en ese lugar que tenía que estar cerrado desde que el tren salió de Cáceres y hasta que llegara a la siguiente estación, pero lo cierto es que el conductor, de una empresa subcontratada por Sacyr (la encargada de las obras), atravesó la vía. Ese paso a nivel tiene que estar controlado por un piloto de seguridad, una persona encargada de vigilar que ese paso a nivel esté abierto y cerrado cuando corresponda, y que estaba en su puesto en el momento del accidente. Esa persona pertenece a una empresa de seguridad contratada por Sacyr para esta tarea.

En el tramo del accidente, el tren tiene limitada la velocidad a 100 kilómetros por hora, y, a la espera de que la investigación siga su curso, todo apunta a que el maquinista respetó ese límite.

La joven fallecida estudiaba Magisterio en Cáceres y vivía en la urbanización Proserpina de la capital extremeña; mientras que el joven conductor del camión residía en la calle Comarca de Las Hurdes, en las cercanías de la Academia de la Guardia Civil de Tráfico, también de Mérida, estaba casado y tenía un hijo de poco más de un año.


ESTADO DE LOS HERIDOS Respecto a los heridos, al cierre de esta información, cuatro continuaban ingresados, uno de ellos, el niño de 3 años, V.M.M, fue trasladado a una UCI pediátrica de Salamanca tras ser operado en Cáceres del trauma abdominal sufrido en el accidente, y tras haber perdido mucha sangre. Su hermano de 7 años, con una contusión en la barbilla, y una abuela también seguían ayer ingresados, esta última, de 64 años, tiene una contusión torácica, está estable y con pronóstico reservado. El otro herido ingresado es el maquinista, R.V.G, de 53 años, con una contusión dorsal, que está consciente y se recupera en el hospital de Mérida.

Entre los diez heridos, estaba también la madre de los pequeños, de 39 años, que fue dada de alta, al igual que otras cinco personas más, con heridas leves.

Hasta que se averigüen las causas del suceso, Adif reiteró ayer que el accidente se ha producido en un paso a nivel de obra que está "autorizado" por el Ministerio de Fomento tal y como establece el protocolo de seguridad para estos casos. Adif y Renfe resaltaron que han activado los "protocolos de seguridad establecidos para estos casos" dando aviso a los servicios de protección civil y asistencias sanitarias. Además, han abierto una investigación para determinar las causas últimas del suceso e insisten en que el incidente "no tiene que incidir en los trabajos de la línea del AVE" ante un hipotético retrasos de las obras en este lugar.

Estas obras del AVE las realiza Sacyr con un presupuesto de 46,92 millones de euros. Se trata de la construcción de plataforma del subtramo Aldea del Cano-Mérida, de 16,96 kilómetros de longitud que discurren por los términos municipales de Cáceres, y Carmonita y Mérida, en la provincia de Badajoz. El contrato incluye, como elementos singulares, la construcción de viaductos sobre el ferrocarril Aljucén-Cáceres, de 25 metros de longitud, y sobre el Arroyo Valdeconde, de 74 metros de longitud. Además, también contempla la ejecución del túnel de Puerto Viejo, de un kilómetro.

Hasta el lugar del suceso se desplazaron más de una decena de ambulancias, numerosos efectivos de bomberos, la Guardia Civil y de Cruz Roja, cuyos psicólogos trataron a familiares de las víctimas que se acercaron a la zona, entre ellos los padres de la joven fallecida, un profesor de dibujo del instituto Santa Eulalia y una maestra y conocida miembros de la organización ecologista Adenex.


CONDOLENCIAS También estuvieron presentes la delegada del Gobierno, Carmen Pereira, el presidente de la Junta de Extremadura, Guillermo Fernández Vara, que lamentó el "desgraciado accidente" en unas obras que son "para el desarrollo, el progreso y la prosperidad"; además de los presidentes de Renfe, Teófilo Serrano; y el de Adif, Antonio González.

En el escenario de los hechos, el alcalde de Carmonita, Agustín Guerrero Lima, ha aprovechado para reclamar una alternativa para el paso de estos camiones de gran tonelaje en las obras del AVE por las calles del municipio, por el "peligro" que supone para los vecinos.

La línea ferroviaria afectada se mantenía anoche interrumpida y se ha establecido un Plan de Transporte Alternativo por carretera entre Cáceres y Mérida.

http://www.elperiodicoextremadura.com/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=530775&page=2

Train speed : 100 km/h
2 dies : the truck driver and a 19 years old young man in the train.
9 people seriously hurt : including train driver

You can thank UIC crashworthiness standard for this.

Likewise, the lowest crashworthiness standard the US HSR projects should accept is UIC. Shinkansen's positive traffic control won't do you any good in an accident like this.

There will not be an accident like this if the tracks were fenced in the first place. :ohno:

You can thank UIC crashworthiness standard for this.

Likewise, the lowest crashworthiness standard the US HSR projects should accept is UIC. Shinkansen's positive traffic control won't do you any good in an accident like this.


You trying to say a shinkansen train wouldn't hold up this well in this type of collision? I thought they were constructed pretty similarly, of very light but strong metal.

You trying to say a shinkansen train wouldn't hold up this well in this type of collision?
Nope. A Shinkansen train car is half as strong as a European-style train car.

I thought they were constructed pretty similarly, of very light but strong metal.
There is no difference between Japanese and Europeans in material selection. European trains are built out of thicker aluminum to increase strength.

Koreans are now the market leader in high speed train construction; their next model due out in 2012 is made out of composite and features a Shinkansen-level axle load while featuring 430 km/hr speed limit and UIC-compliant crashworthiness.

Nope. A Shinkansen train car is half as strong as a European-style train car.


There is no difference between Japanese and Europeans in material selection. European trains are built out of thicker aluminum to increase strength.



Half as strong? Euro cars generally fluctuate between 40 and 60 tons for single level coaches (some bi level cars can get really heavy), a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.

Would really like to see your source on that.

Gentlemen, please hold your horses. Neither this is an high-speed train nor the line is an high speed line. All high speed lines in Spain are fenced, of course.

The train is a Renfe Class 598 which was operating a Regional service from Madrid - Atocha Cercanías to Merida via Caceres. It is a diesel multiple unit with a maximum speed of 160km/h. The line where the accident happened is the conventional line from Caceres to Merida. Ironically, the truck was part of the construction of the high speed line which will exist here from 2013.

Half as strong? Euro cars generally fluctuate between 40 and 60 tons for single level coaches (some bi level cars can get really heavy), a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.

Would really like to see your source on that.

As usual he does not have any source to back up his wild claims at all. The nationalist's point is that Korean trains are better than Chinese and Japanese trains. But he has never looked at the design of any highspeed trains, whether it is Chinese, Japanese or Korean.

Half as strong? Euro cars generally fluctuate between 40 and 60 tons for single level coaches (some bi level cars can get really heavy), a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.

Would really like to see your source on that.

Again, Jay, I have to say to you that weight does not equal strength!!! There is no guarantee just because something is of a similar or greater weight that it is stronger. ;)

Again, Jay, I have to say to you that weight does not equal strength!!! There is no guarantee just because something is of a similar or greater weight that it is stronger. ;)

I totally agree, I wasn't really trying to get at that but I believe the perfect crashworthiness comes from a combination of decent weight and design (Not too light, nor too heavy)

I was saying that this train performed pretty well in such a grizzly collision. That truck was loaded, the payload being somewhere around 80 tons I believe, this train would have been better off hitting a large tank.

There will not be an accident like this if the tracks were fenced in the first place. :ohno:

Gentlemen, please hold your horses. Neither this is an high-speed train nor the line is an high speed line. All high speed lines in Spain are fenced, of course.

The train is a Renfe Class 598 which was operating a Regional service from Madrid - Atocha Cercanías to Merida via Caceres. It is a diesel multiple unit with a maximum speed of 160km/h. The line where the accident happened is the conventional line from Caceres to Merida. Ironically, the truck was part of the construction of the high speed line which will exist here from 2013.

This line has no more than 10 trains per day (in both directions), this may be the reason of distraction of the truck driver. The less trains pass on a line, the less one think to watch if one is passing.

There will not be an accident like this if the tracks were fenced in the first place. :ohno:

First of all, If I interpret correctly the pictures I have seen, the
collision occured at a level-crossing so fences are irrelevant...

And also, with such a monster truck involved, fencing link what is
commonly used along high-speed lines in Europe would have been
tiotally useless. You would need a two-feet-thick concrete wall
to retain such a beast, at least.

It was a temporary level crossing built only to ease the works of the HSL. I suppose there wasn't even a simple flashing light activated by approaching trains...

a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.
1. Shinkansen cars are much larger than Euro cars, yet they are lighter.
2. That extra weight of Renfe went into structural reinforcement, and this is why Euro-style cars are heavier than Shinkansen cars.

Would really like to see your source on that.

http://www.kjclub.com/UploadFile/exc_board_52/2010/05/12/image.JPG
Kawasaki was dead wrong on this.

1. Shinkansen cars are much larger than Euro cars, yet they are lighter.
2. That extra weight of Renfe went into structural reinforcement, and this is why Euro-style cars are heavier than Shinkansen cars.



http://www.kjclub.com/UploadFile/exc_board_52/2010/05/12/image.JPG
Kawasaki was dead wrong on this.

Nope Kawasaki was accurate since as you seen in the bottom of the chart it says "Fully Dedicated Tracks" meaning there should be no level crossing whatsoever.

Nope Kawasaki was accurate since as you seen in the bottom of the chart it says "Fully Dedicated Tracks" meaning there should be no level crossing whatsoever.

Good luck trying to sell Shinkansen in the US then since no one's building fully dedicated tracks with a single exception of Florida.

Wow, never realized how poorly japanese trains were constructed. I still imagine a shinkansen train would do alright in a collision though, they just seem well engineered yet I might be just completely making that up or imagining it.


Eliminating level crossings is not going to help this kind of situation very much, buses and and trucks are not nearly as big of a threat to a speeding train than heavy construction vehicles like this one, which will not crash with the train at a level crossing yet in a completely random spot.


New Chinese and Korean trains (and european ones) are being built very heavy. (The new 16 car zefiro weighs 934 tonnes) The new 10 car sapsan is 670 tonnes and the ETR in italy is about 60 tonnes a car. (all single level).. also most intercity coaches that are new weigh in the 50 tonne range as opposed to the way older 35 to 40 tonne range.. Good to see
people are catching on.

I'm not saying weight is the ONLY factor in making a safe train but you need to compromise. I agree that the acela may be a bit too heavy, especially with those massive power cars.

Wow, never realized how poorly japanese trains were constructed. I still imagine a shinkansen train would do alright in a collision though, they just seem well engineered yet I might be just completely making that up or imagining it.


Eliminating level crossings is not going to help this kind of situation very much, buses and and trucks are not nearly as big of a threat to a speeding train than heavy construction vehicles like this one, which will not crash with the train at a level crossing yet in a completely random spot.



Even in situation where tracks are near construction site precautionary measures should be initiated such as developing a cross section(whether it be at level or tunnel/bridge) with minimum interference in operation.
There is no excuse when accidents happens and lives are lost.
Japanese philosophy is NO accident occurrence are safer then safety measures implied when accidents occurs.

Even in situation where tracks are near construction site precautionary measures should be initiated such as developing a cross section(whether it be at level or tunnel/bridge) with minimum interference in operation.
There is no excuse when accidents happens and lives are lost.
Japanese philosophy is NO accident occurrence are safer then safety measures implied when accidents occurs.


Even if those precautions are taken accidents can still occur, whether between two trains or from random objects that seem to roll on the tracks which actually happens for some reason. It's absurd to take no safety precautions while constructing the train.

accidents are going to happen, always, it's kind of like crime, it is inevitable, where there are people it will exist. Same as with vehicles, they will crash.. Look at the maglev that crashed, never thought that would have happened but it did.

Build safer trains, it's the only way to prevent deaths. If you try and prevent accidents, some, maybe not as many but some will still happen, the train moves, so it can and eventually will crash into something.

Even if those precautions are taken accidents can still occur, whether between two trains or from random objects that seem to roll on the tracks which actually happens for some reason. It's absurd to take no safety precautions while constructing the train.

accidents are going to happen, always, it's kind of like crime, it is inevitable, where there are people it will exist. Same as with vehicles, they will crash.. Look at the maglev that crashed, never thought that would have happened but it did.

Build safer trains, it's the only way to prevent deaths. If you try and prevent accidents, some, maybe not as many but some will still happen, the train moves, so it can and eventually will crash into something.

If they took the prevention of accidents seriously in Spain by not using level crossings, then this accident wouldn't have happened and noone would've been killed. So the Japanese approach is correct: avoid accidents at any cost and then you can use much lighter trains. Mind you that heavier trainsets also have disadvantages when accidents occur, due to the higer kinetic energy.

Also we're comparing HS trainsets and HSL's, but this accident wasn't a HS trainset nor was it on a HSL, so everything told here is not applicable to this accident.

^Yes I agree but that wasn't exactly my point.. I'm saying that even if you DO eliminate level crossings these crashes still happen. There have been several instinces where large machines near the tracks somehow fall down hills and into the way of the train (this actually happens more often than you might think.. why? I don't know) Or just look at the example with the transrapid maglev. Or just if the train derails in general the cars should not just crush each other.

Obviously yes you are right about the kinetic energy, that's why I'm saying that there should be a balance between weight and design. But that is only true when it is between two trains generally. The extra weight on certain trains just makes it worse for the other vehicle... which we shouldn't really care about because they had a death wish going in front of a train anyway. Cars that rip open are not safe (again I'm not referring to this train) and it really is not that difficult or expensive to build them better.

If they took the prevention of accidents seriously in Spain by not using level crossings, then this accident wouldn't have happened and noone would've been killed.

This accident happened on a temporary railway crossing built to ease the works of the new HSL, so an underpass was considered a waste of money. The existing railway has 10 trains per day, and maybe decided that lights and barriers would be useless for a such crossing, and this may have been a cause of the accident.

It is economcally impossible to replace with bridges all crossings with 100 cars and 10 trains per day.

This accident happened on a temporary railway crossing built to ease the works of the new HSL, so an underpass was considered a waste of money. The existing railway has 10 trains per day, and maybe decided that lights and barriers would be useless for a such crossing, and this may have been a cause of the accident.

It is economcally impossible to replace with bridges all crossings with 100 cars and 10 trains per day.

I know that my choice of words wasn't very good, but I was reacting to the point that the avoidance of collisions they do in Japan wouldn't be sufficient. Of course they do take it seriously in Spain, but not to the extent the do in Japan, so it's not that silly of them to use lighter trains.

You have to admit that they could have done more in Spain tot prevent this accident, but they thought is was unnecessary. They were proved wrong.

^^ yes, a system warning the aprpoach of a train would have avoided the accident (I don't know if there was one, that the truck driver did not respect)

Train passengers ahould never EVER have to pay for a truck driver's stupitidy and carelessness.

^Yes I agree but that wasn't exactly my point.. I'm saying that even if you DO eliminate level crossings these crashes still happen. There have been several instinces where large machines near the tracks somehow fall down hills and into the way of the train (this actually happens more often than you might think.. why? I don't know) Or just look at the example with the transrapid maglev. Or just if the train derails in general the cars should not just crush each other.

Obviously yes you are right about the kinetic energy, that's why I'm saying that there should be a balance between weight and design. But that is only true when it is between two trains generally. The extra weight on certain trains just makes it worse for the other vehicle... which we shouldn't really care about because they had a death wish going in front of a train anyway. Cars that rip open are not safe (again I'm not referring to this train) and it really is not that difficult or expensive to build them better.

I believe the Shinkansen's on going record of zero fatality through an accident for 40 years is a testament to it's safety.
Various safety devices such as ATS,ATC and other various automated control device makes it virtually impossible for an accident like the transrapid collision to happen.

As for a situation like the above, Japanese construction companies will first fence off the tracks with temporary self-standing fences and create at level crossing section with non intrusion bars and signaling devices to notify and stop traffic when train is approaching. (I believe there are also protocols for how much advance notice is required for these signals based on speed)
Construction companies has kits to set up and/or dismantle to the next construction site when needed.

The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8603392/Spain-cuts-high-speed-ghost-train.html)

The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.

But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.

"From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.

"Renfe feels the pain when we transport only steel," he said referring to the fact that only nine passengers on average used the route daily.

Instead passengers will have to change trains in Madrid, from which high-speed trains are already operating to the biggest three cities of Castilla-La Mancha. The journey time would increase from two hours and five minutes between Toledo and Albacete to two hours and 28 minutes.

The failed route, which costs 18,000 euros (£16,000) a day to operate, is one of a series of infrastructure "white elephants" that have sprung up in recent years across the Spanish landscape.

Castellon Airport, built at a cost of 150 million euros (£134 million) and inaugurated in March, has yet to receive its first scheduled flight. Mile upon mile of empty toll roads are running at a loss.

A large part of austerity measures introduced by the socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriquez has been to drastically shrink public spending on infrastructure that burgeoned out of control during the country's boom years and sent its borrowing costs soaring as the economic crisis hit.

Since Spain opened its first bullet train connection between Madrid and Seville in 1992 it has become the operator of the largest high-speed network in Europe with more than 1,700 miles of track.

^^ So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.

^^ So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.

I think the article is not making an assessment on high-speed rail as a whole, neither am I. It is just a problem with a specific service that maybe implied the construction of a new flyover.

This article is biased as it talks aboute a "route" from Albacete to Toledo as if it were something isolated, which it isn´t at all.

It does not mention, not a single time, that those trains stopped at Madrid-Atocha station.

They carried many more passengers than that, although the line was considered a failure just on the Madrid-Toledo part of the line, and this is the reason why these trains have been stopped.

By the way it was just a test to see how it worked, it just didn´t as the line´s not finished yet.

The problem with these trains is that the Madrid-Toledo line is used by the much more cheaper Avant trains, obviously preferred by the vast majority of the passengers because they´re cheaper.

The Madrid to Cuenca and Albacete part will simply carry on, the thing is that that route is not finished yet, that´s the Alicante route, scheduled to open in 2012.

Besides, that´s a British newspaper cut´n´pasting an equally biased Spanish article, which is about the same as saying the article is classical tabloid-like, absolutely biased no-insight utter rubbish, as usual for the British press, needless to say.

This article is biased as it talks aboute a "route" from Albacete to Toledo as if it were something isolated, which it isn´t at all.

It does not mention, not a single time, that those trains stopped at Madrid-Atocha station.

They carried many more passengers than that, although the line was considered a failure just on the Madrid-Toledo part of the line, and this is the reason why these thains have been stopped.

By the way it was just a test to see how it worked, it just didn´t as the line´s not finished yet.

The problem with these trains is that the Madrid-Toledo line is used by the much more cheaper Avant trains, obviously preferred by the vast majority of the passengers because they´re cheaper.

The Madrid to Cuenca and Albacete part will simply carry on, the thing is that that route is not finished yet, that´s the Alicante route, scheduled to open in 2012.

Besides, that´s a British newspaper cut´n´pasting an equally biased Spanish article, which is about the same as saying the article is classical tabloid-like, absolutely biased no-insight utter rubbish, as usual for the British press, needless to say.

Estoy 100% contigo! It is what they want to read about us PIGS. 'Spending their money on wasteful infrastructure.' Both AVE lines are relatively succesful on their own (LAV Levante and LAV Toledo) are they not?

Compared to French lines, they aren't...

Compared to French lines, they aren't...

With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.

I fully understand that a HST ticket must be more expensive due to the cost of maintenance and construction of the infrastructure, but if Renfe prefers to see emptier trains than crowded trains like in France, then it obviously is Renfe´s fault and Renfe´s choice, not people´s.

With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.

I fully understand that a HST ticket must be more expensive due to the cost of maintenance and construction of the infrastructure, but if Renfe prefers to see emptier trains than crowded trains like in France, then it obviously is Renfe´s fault and Renfe´s choice, not people´s.

Depending on how the preferences of costumers play in, when aggregated, it might be well the case that Renfe can still maximize its operational financial result carrying less people paying much higher fares. But it is a mere hypothesis, without hard data it is difficult to evaluate that. Theoretically, it may be (again, hypothesis) the case that to boost ridership significantly would mean slashing fares to a point where the increased ridership wouldn't bring enough revenue to make up the reduced fares. Sure, if you start charging € 25 for advanced purchased tickets Madrid P. Atocha to Barcelona Saints, you will see the ridership explode within one week. I guess that had been the case in some promotional fares Renfe puts on from time to time.

Spain also has strong competition from intercity buses, which are very uncommon in France, compared to Spain.

With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.

I know, I know... :bash:

With a sort of long distance "Avant" (low cost, no frills) trains would be full and taxpayer's money better used.

Depending on how the preferences of costumers play in, when aggregated, it might be well the case that Renfe can still maximize its operational financial result carrying less people paying much higher fares. But it is a mere hypothesis, without hard data it is difficult to evaluate that. Theoretically, it may be (again, hypothesis) the case that to boost ridership significantly would mean slashing fares to a point where the increased ridership wouldn't bring enough revenue to make up the reduced fares.

Right you are.

Sure, if you start charging € 25 for advanced purchased tickets Madrid P. Atocha to Barcelona Saints, you will see the ridership explode within one week. I guess that had been the case in some promotional fares Renfe puts on from time to time.

The problem is that Renfe should be able to offer many more reduced fare tickets than it does. They seem to prefer to carry less passengers, to target a posh population, rather than just carrying more passengers for about the same amount of money.

We Spaniards all wonder why they do that, we believe it´s non-sense.

Spain also has strong competition from intercity buses, which are very uncommon in France, compared to Spain.

True, but only to a certain extent.
There´s routes in which the bus is simply not worth it, or it carries too few passengers to be a real alternative to plane, HST or car.

The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8603392/Spain-cuts-high-speed-ghost-train.html)

The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.

But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.

"From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.

"Renfe feels the pain when we transport only steel," he said referring to the fact that only nine passengers on average used the route daily.

Instead passengers will have to change trains in Madrid, from which high-speed trains are already operating to the biggest three cities of Castilla-La Mancha. The journey time would increase from two hours and five minutes between Toledo and Albacete to two hours and 28 minutes.

The failed route, which costs 18,000 euros (£16,000) a day to operate, is one of a series of infrastructure "white elephants" that have sprung up in recent years across the Spanish landscape.

Castellon Airport, built at a cost of 150 million euros (£134 million) and inaugurated in March, has yet to receive its first scheduled flight. Mile upon mile of empty toll roads are running at a loss.

A large part of austerity measures introduced by the socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriquez has been to drastically shrink public spending on infrastructure that burgeoned out of control during the country's boom years and sent its borrowing costs soaring as the economic crisis hit.

Since Spain opened its first bullet train connection between Madrid and Seville in 1992 it has become the operator of the largest high-speed network in Europe with more than 1,700 miles of track.

I read this article yesterday and thought the journalists of "telegraph" functionally illiterate. They can not distinguish even between train and railway.

+ 1.000.000 :colbert:

En español se dice mala baba

With a sort of long distance "Avant" (low cost, no frills) trains would be full and taxpayer's money better used.

Then the whole, 8-years long branding effort of Renfe promoting AVE as a high-quality, better-than-highway, faster-than-plane option would be trashed.

By they might coexist, is a different, independent operation of low-cost trains were to be started. Maybe some private competitor that operates only point-to-point services between major HS markets, no connecting services with other operators etc.

no connecting services with other operators etc

Only a fool would do that :cheers:

^^ So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.



It is thrue that there are some "white airports", but high speed railways keep with traffic.

Last december connection between Madrid and Valencia was opened, as well a branch to Alicante was partially made (until Albacete and the rest is on works).

Apart of trains Madrid-Valencia (direct ones and with two stops), Madrid-Albacete (considered as regional), Madrid-Alicante (high speed until Albacete and normal railway later)... it was offered to passangers a... Toledo-Albacete. It is just an Albacete-Madrid which continues to Toledo.

Fares at Spain are very strange (there is a thread about that...) and most of passengers would prefer to make connection at Madrid instead of direct trains if those fares.


Journalist wrote as if one railway is closed when only three daily trains will partially dissapear. Just that!.
And... possibilities of connection.

Some photos from the ministry of public works of the NW HSR corridor under construction. The first part between La Coruña and Ourense will open at the end of this year. Actually the section between Santiago de Compostela and La Coruña (Vmax 250) has already been opened for traffic but still lack signaling (ERTMS) and electrification.

Some pics from the to be highest railway bridge in Spain (116 meters)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3273/5866240520_c288dbd60c_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5866240520/)
Viaducto sobre el río Ulla (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5866240520/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5040/5859289833_dea481fae0_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859289833/)
Viaducto sobre el río Ulla (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859289833/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/5839297375_913711d22a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5839297375/)
Viaducto sobre el río Ulla (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5839297375/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

And a few other bridges on the same railway

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5274/5859835262_91ca0679e2_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859835262/)
Viaducto de Deza (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859835262/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2782/5859286373_f6ca97cea0_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859286373/)
Viaducto O Eixo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859286373/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/5859843086_9e9be13d5c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859843086/)
Viaducto Río Sáramo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859843086/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5271/5859841986_83f1439f4c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859841986/)
Viaducto Río Portos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859841986/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5040/5859289833_dea481fae0_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859289833/)
Viaducto sobre el río Ulla (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fomentogob/5859289833/) por Ministerio de Fomento (http://www.flickr.com/people/fomentogob/), en Flickr

Beautiful!!

Beautiful

magnífico!!!

^^
muy impresionante :eek: :applause: :cheers2:

thanks for the pics :)

MArKpQ0rCQA

The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8603392/Spain-cuts-high-speed-ghost-train.html)

The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.

But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.

"From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.
.

More biased bullshit from you. This is a problem of the origin-destination of the service, not a fault with HSR itself. This route uses High speed rail lines that connect much larger cities that perform quite well.

More biased bullshit from you. This is a problem of the origin-destination of the service, not a fault with HSR itself. This route uses High speed rail lines that connect much larger cities that perform quite well.


Some details:

In december 2010, the high speed line Madrid-Valencia with a branch to Albacete (where trains can continue in the normal line to Alicante, for example) was openned to traffic.

Since then, there are high speed trains (13 daily) Madrid-Valencia, some of them with stops at Cuenca and Utiel, as well as there are trains Madrid-Albacete (100% high speed) or Madrid-Albacete-Alicante (after Alicante takes normal railway... high speed is on works there).

They put three daily additional trains more: Albacete-Madrid...-Toledo. Three daily trains which will finish at Toledo instead of Madrid.

Fares were considered as long distance trains... and they were the only long distance trains at Toledo. The rest are regional trains. Also high speed, but only to Madrid (28 minutes journey) and much, much, much cheaper.

People takes at Toledo the train to go to Madrid more than any other city... and the main relation was more expensive in these three trains than in the others (just because type of fares of the company).

The result was no passengers on these trains and... normal service in the others.

The company decided to cancel those trains, having new services Toledo-Madrid only (and with regional fares), and being able to shuttle to Valencia, Albacete (and anywhere, of course).


No line has been closed... just three daily trains with no passengers because the fares system have been cancelled. Instead, some new services have been opened and offer is similar.

Great pics thanks. Does anyone know what the older bridge in the background is? Road or rail? Cheers. :)

Great pics thanks. Does anyone know what the older bridge in the background is? Road or rail? Cheers. :)

Rail.
It´s the classic line and it´s still some bridge... and some line, the classic one, easily one of the most beautiful lines in Spain!
The landscape in the area might remind some of you of some areas in Britain.
Weather too BTW... :D

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/english/Spanish/firms/to/build/high-speed/train/to/Mecca/elpepueng/20110718elpeng_1/Ten[/url]

Spanish firms to build high-speed train to Mecca
Medina and the pilgrimage city will be linked by an AVE rail network
S. HERNÁNDEZ - Madrid - 18/07/2011

.A Spanish consortium won a lucrative contract to build an AVE rail network in Saudi Arabia to connect the city of Medina and the Muslim pilgrimage site of Mecca, according to sources with knowledge of the bid.


The cost of the project is estimated at 6.5 billion euros with 12 Spanish firms, including Adif, Talgo and Renfe, taking part in the construction, the sources said. The consortium, which is 88 percent Spanish and 12 percent Saudi, beat out competitors from China, South Korea, Germany and France.

The French were Spain's toughest competitors. President Nicolas Sarkozy had gone to Saudi Arabia to personally lobby for the contract.

Some 450 kilometers of track across the desert will be constructed to connect Medina, Mecca and the city of Jeddah. The bid, which calls for 35 high-speed trains and the maintenance of the network for 12 years, was launched in 2006 by the Saudi Rail Organization (SRO).:banana:

The tunnel-boring machine at work under the centre of Barcelona in the construction of the Barcelona-Figueres-Perpignan HSL will end its job next week, it seems.
Then the hardest part of the works will start, that is the connection of the new tunnel to the old one in Sants station, they´re going to be extremely difficult, as the train and road traffic can´t be cut in the area (too busy).

But it is a mere hypothesis, without hard data it is difficult to evaluate that.

Some "semi-hard" data on the use of some HSL in Spain (from www.ferropedia.es (http://www.ferropedia.es))

- Madrid - Barcelona (http://www.ferropedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%A1ficos_AVE_y_LD_corredor_Barcelona-Madrid)
- Madrid - Andalusia (http://www.ferropedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%A1ficos_corredores_Andaluc%C3%ADa_Larga_Distancia)
- Madrid - Valencia (http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Tr%C3%A1ficos_corredores_Madrid_-_Comunidad_Valenciana)
- Madrid - Toledo (http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/LAV_y_Avant_Madrid_-_Toledo)

(pap: point to point
Corredor: all travellers of a line)

Some costs (http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Costes_del_ferrocarril:_servicios)

The catenary of the new High Speed Line between Ourense-Santiago de Compostela-La Coruña is being put in tension. It will be inaugurated by December, we believe.
That includes the beautiful viaducts you can see a few pics above. ^^

========================================

The remains of an ancient Roman villa have been discovered during the works of the new Sagrera station in Barcelona.
These remains won´t stop the inauguration of the Barcelona-Figueres HSL, but may delay the construction of the Sagrera station building.

========================================

That´s all for now. :)

http://tll.kewego.com/t/0/0595/154x114_iLyROoaf2hpQ_2_kew1316773332.jpg (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2hpQ.html) LAV Levante.Tramo Monforte del Cid-Murcia - Adif (http://video.adif.es/video/iLyROoaf2hpQ.html)

The final tunnel of the Barcelona-Figueres HSL (the one under Montcada) has been bored.
Now there´s only the connection of the HSL tunnel under Barcelona to the north side of the tracks of Sants Station left, and they´ll be able to start laying the rails and the catenary and so on.

So I believe that somewhere in 2012, there´ll finally be a direct TGV/AVE Madrid-Barcelona-Paris.

^^ Rather impossible to finish the tunnel, lay tracks, test, commission and start commercial operation within 13 months.

^^ Rather impossible to finish the tunnel, lay tracks, test, commission and start commercial operation within 13 months.

You can bet they will rush this one, there is a hefty fine if the target of 2012 in not met.

^^ Rather impossible to finish the tunnel, lay tracks, test, commission and start commercial operation within 13 months.

Why, most of the line is already open and in service with trains -freight trains only for now, there´s only a few kilometers left, no more than 50, and in most of them the rails and the catenary have already been in place for several months.

It´s only a matter of electrifying the tunnels and lay tracks in the missing links, it´s not like they´ve got to electrify the whole of the line.

The date of 2012 is assured.

High Speed rail Madrid-Lerida was opened 10th October 2003.

Today it is Madrid-Barcelona and it is the Spanish line with more passengers.

What are next opening?

What are next opening?

-Ourense-Santiago de Compostela, by the end of this year.
-Albacete-Villena-Alicante, 2012.
-Barcelona-Girona-Figueres Vilafant, 2012 too.

Then...

-Villena-Xàtiva-Valencia, possibly 2013
-Olmedo-Medina del Campo-Zamora, possibly 2013/2014
-Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-León, possibly 2013/2014
-Venta de Baños-Burgos, possibly 2013/2014.

Then the rest...

High speed will not finish at Leon.
It will continue to Gijon, in the Atlantic coast, crossing a 25 km tunnel currently under construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajares_Base_Tunnel).
Anyway... the tunnel is advanced but not so much the connection into Leon as well as other streches so the full line Leon-Gijon will be open later.
But it is already on works.

^^
I did not put ALL the HSLs in works, only the ones which will be opening soon or in two/three years.
I don´t think the Pjares tunnel might open in three years yet. Politicians in between, you know...

Did someone have a good map of the AVE network (current and future) ?

This one, from wikipedia, looks old and not very elaborate

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/AVE.png/600px-AVE.png

Did someone have a good map of the AVE network (current and future) ?

This one, from wikipedia, looks old and not very elaborate

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/AVE.png/600px-AVE.png



here:

http://mapaferrocarril.pacopaco.es/

Greater European network on track

On 19 October, the European Commission presented its project for the integration of European transport networks. Endowed with a budget of 37.7 billion euros, it includes plans to modernise infrastructure and “rationalise cross border transport” by 2030. In individual countries, the initiative is being evaluated in terms of its national impact. In Spain, La Vanguardia leads with the front-page headline “Europe chooses the Mediterranean,” and a report on the rail corridor that will link the French-Spanish border to Algéciras in southern Spain. The daily points out that its inclusion in the trans-European transport network will provide 20% of the funding for this coastal line, which will cost an estimated 19 billion euros. That is why “the Mediterranean corridor is a victory,” explains the editorial in the Catalan daily, which notes in passing that the principle that every rail link should pass through Madrid “has been amended.” Adding that “good sense has prevailed,” La Vanguardia points out that 40% of Spains GDP is generated by the Mediterranean regions of the country.

http://www.presseurop.eu/files/Vanguardia-20102011.jpg

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/news-brief-cover/1077461-greater-european-network-track

Quick question from the uninitiated: for the Barcelona-Paris HSR trains, are those trains direct trains, how long will the ride be, what station do they arrive at in Paris, and what are they doing about the break-of-gauge?

Thanks!

I don't know the duration of the travel, but they willa rive in Gare de Lyon and run on standard gauge thanks to the new line.

There was published on press the first forecast that included several Barcelona-Paris but also Barcelona-Lille, Barcelona-Geneve, Barcelona-Milano, Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona-Paris and several ones more.

It was published with daily frequencies stimated

Quick question from the uninitiated: for the Barcelona-Paris HSR trains, are those trains direct trains,

Not yet, you need to change in Figueres-Vilafant station. By 2012 they will be direct though.

how long will the ride be,

6 hours more or less, from 2012 on, now it´s like 7h20min or so.
To be shortened in future years (the goal is 4h30min). The French part of the line between Perpignan and Nimes is not High Speed yet.

what station do they arrive at in Paris,

Gare de Lyon.

and what are they doing about the break-of-gauge?

For now there is a change at Figueres-Vilafant station.
If you come from Barcelona, you take a train to Figueres-Vilafant, once you arrive there on the same platform there is a TGV waiting.
From 2012 on, there won´t be no break of gauge anymore.

Thanks!

You are welcome. :)

Quick question from the uninitiated: for the Barcelona-Paris HSR trains, are those trains direct trains, how long will the ride be, what station do they arrive at in Paris, and what are they doing about the break-of-gauge?

Thanks!



Apart of explanations of 437.001 and several photos you can surf on the web where you will notice that change of train can be made in the same plattform, I post an old map and explain it:

http://prensa.adif.es/ade/u08/GAP/Prensa.nsf/Vo000A/887DF3C50C59D4F7C12577DC0054F71D/$File/fotonoticia.jpg

Wide black line is the high speed railway. And "Estación en proyecto" (station under project) is since last year a real station with service where TGV finishs.

Trains to the north are by that line.

Line to the south is on works.

Red line is the old line with different gauge. It is indicated which part will dissapear and which part will be the new one.

Currently:

TGV comes from north to the station in the black line.
All Spanish trains goes via Figueres centre to Port Bou and Cerbere (discontinuous red line). This includes the night trains from Barcelona to Geneve, Milano, Zurich and Paris
Two trains from Barcelona and only one stop at Gerona will take the branch to arrive to "Figueres-Vilafant".

Should you are going to ask for timetables (http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/index.html English version) BE SURE you are picking "Figueres-Vilafant" station instead of "Figueres" (the difference will be being in the same platform that TGV or in the centre of Figueres).

There are only two trains from Figueres-Vilafant... the same that TGV come from Paris (and nearly also from Geneve). The schedules are prepared to shuttle.

The connection is not assured in case of delay of one train, but as far as I know, in one case, they wait for the other train.


Arriving to Barcelona you will be able to get a direct train to almost any side in Spain (some destinations require connection at Madrid)

Did someone have a good map of the AVE network (current and future) ?
This one, from wikipedia, looks old and not very elaborate



This one of www.ferropedia.es is quite accurate and realistic as it considers only lines in service or with advanced works. It represents the situation after the opening of the HST Ourense-Santiago in a few weeks (December 10th, 2011).

http://www.ferropedia.es/mediawiki/images/thumb/5/57/Esquema_de_LAVs_en_Espana.png/778px-Esquema_de_LAVs_en_Espana.png

Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Líneas de Alta Velocidad (LAV) en España (http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/L%C3%ADneas_de_Alta_Velocidad_%28LAV%29_en_Espa%C3%B1a).

Other Spanish railways maps:

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Mapas_de_ferrocarriles_de_Espa%C3%B1a_y_Portugal

thx !!!

i'm very surprised that HST Ourense-Santiago is not a 1435mm ?!!! ^^

thx !!!

i'm very surprised that HST Ourense-Santiago is not a 1435mm ?!!! ^^

Is prepared to be changed to 1435mm when

1) the HST from Olmedo-Zamora arrives to Ourense (will take several years, not before 2016)
2) a solution has been found for the freight trains (the HST between Vigo-Santiago-A Coruña is in fact an upgrade of the old line). This is a major problem and precise plans are not known/ do no exist. (?)

I put again the HST map (situation december 2011) together with the map of all lines (situation beginning of 2011) so that you can understand that a good solution to the second point is not easy without changing the gauge of the whole network.


http://www.ferropedia.es/mediawiki/images/thumb/5/57/Esquema_de_LAVs_en_Espana.png/778px-Esquema_de_LAVs_en_Espana.png

Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Líneas de Alta Velocidad (LAV) en España (http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/L%C3%ADneas_de_Alta_Velocidad_%28LAV%29_en_Espa%C3%B1a).

http://www.ferropedia.es/mediawiki/images/thumb/2/22/Adif_DR_vmax2011.jpg/800px-Adif_DR_vmax2011.jpg

Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Declaración sobre la Red (http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Declaraci%C3%B3n_sobre_la_Red).

Other Spanish railways maps:

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Mapas_de_ferrocarriles_de_Espa%C3%B1a_y_Portugal

changing the gauge of the whole network

ADIF and Fomento should do that as soon as possible.

No need until the international gauge arrives there.

And I explain...

Spain (and Portugal and several other countries) have their railway networks with a different gauge which creates a handicap for international connections (no problem Spain-Portugal trains).

New high speed lines are being built with international gauges... which since 1992 is creating a lot of troubles in the network but solving them... as well as you have trains with several gauges. Today, every line for high speed is in a different gauge.

Central stations in every city have separated platforms for high speed or for normal trains... because they have different gauge. This is... high speed lines do not start in the end of each city but in the own station (and creates the handicap of building a new paralel line until the own station with a different gauge).

All new trains buyed since several years ago are prepared for a gauge change. In this way a train can use the high speed network but continue later in the general network. This is why Alicante, Algeciras, Granada, La Coruña, Gijon, Bilbao, Irun, Vigo and soooooo on (and cities in the middle) have a train that profits part the high speed line and continues on the old line while it is on works until the end.

The problem is that changing gauge takes several minutes (sometimes until 15 minutes) and ADIF has a 100 EUR fare for each change.

In this way, a train Madrid-La Coruña should have to change twice of gauge.
Infrastructure has been preparated to do not change gauge several times but being able to change it to the international one when connection with it.

ADIF and Fomento should do that as soon as possible.

Strange, because there are a number of people in Spain who are against that, arguing that there´s no need anyway, as there´s nearly no rail freight, and that it is a waste of time and money, even more with this crisis.

Actually there are only four normal gauge freight trains from France to Barcelona.
Everyone thought there would be many more freight trains, but there aren´t.

And anyway we don´t know if we´ll carry on with the EU much longer, so what´s the point?

Some pics of Barcelona Sagrera AVE Station

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/highlights/19.jpg

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/highlights/25.jpg

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/highlights/20.jpg

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/highlights/22.jpg

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/highlights/23.jpg

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/highlights/24.jpg

Strange, because there are a number of people in Spain who are against that, arguing that there´s no need anyway, as there´s nearly no rail freight, and that it is a waste of time and money, even more with this crisis.

Actually there are only four normal gauge freight trains from France to Barcelona.
Everyone thought there would be many more freight trains, but there aren´t.

And anyway we don´t know if we´ll carry on with the EU much longer, so what´s the point?

How many standard gauge yards and industries are linked to the Perthus line? This should be considered, also with the fact that today traffic between the Iberian penisnula and the rest of Europe is seriously limited by the gauge.

Finally, as most Spanish broad gauge lines are heavily underutilized, it wouldn't be problematic to convert them to standard gauge. For example, the whole Madrid-Irun-Hendaye line could handle its traffic on a single track during the conversion of the other. On single track lines it would be more difficult, but not so much as they usually see 4 passenegrs and 1 freight trains a day.

The problem is not only the gauge... because inside Spain the freight is very small compared to trucks (and no problem with gauge).


Apart of it, as far as I know, any new railway strech, or just a refurbishement is prepared for European standard gauge. This is... they can refurbish just 3 km in a line, and will be open with Spanish gauge... but the line will be ready to be change to international gauge... at least in those 3 km (or the strech refurbished).


There are, sometimes, long lines that could be changed any day... but the problem of having two gauges is really big.

Apart of that, for high speed trains that goes later in the Spanish gauge to any corner... the change has a fare of 100 EUR... and that could be 1 EUR to add to any ticket.

The problem is not only the gauge... because inside Spain the freight is very small compared to trucks (and no problem with gauge).

This is true.

That's why changing gauge of all lines in Spain would not be too expensive: most new tracks are prepared for standard gauge, and most lines have a low traffic. And with the opening of the Valladolid-León/Burgos HSLs the existing lines could be easily regauged. You don't need 4 tracks to handle 120 trains a day...

For example, the whole Madrid-Irun-Hendaye line could handle its traffic on a single track during the conversion of the other...
+1000

This can develop the big potential of the Paris-Bordeaux-Madrid line for fret and passengers