A new referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is likely in October (although Ireland will recieve concessions).....how do you think we should vote?, how will you vote? and what is the consequence of this vote?

Me, I intend to vote "yes". I only voted no the last time to give the Government a kicking and that French guy that was mouthing off (honestly!).

The EU has been good for us.

:)

Me, I intend to vote "yes". I only voted no the last time to give the Government a kicking and that French guy that was mouthing off (honestly!).

Wow you really showed us...:ohno:

42% of Irelanders who have voted "No" in the previous referendum have said that they don't know what the Treaty says. Also 46% of those who haven't voted said the same. So I encourage all of the Irelanders to try to fathom with the Treaty. You can find full text of the Treaty here (http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/full_text/index_en.htm). Your decision should be based on reasonabled arguments, but not random emotions determined by lack of knowledge about the subject.

For example, eurosceptics say that EU is not democratic enough, because its institution which is elected directly by voters - Europarliament - has too little powers/rights. So the Treaty of Lisbon will increase those powers. Also this Treaty will enable EU citizens to participate in the EU's law designing process. So if you want to improve the level of democracy in the EU, you should support the Treaty.

Also Irelanders shouldn't protest against their inner political issues while voting on the Treaty and we have an example of that in the quotation of the 2nd post in this thread. Your decision will affect half a billion of EU citizens. Please have this in mind.

Also I don't want to tell (or my post to look like I'm trying to tell) you how to vote. What I'm doing is more like an asking to reconsider your position very well.

I hope that EU will provide much more objective information about the Treaty for Irish people to be able to make accurate decision. But the conclusions should be done by the people themselves.

Since joining the European Union in 1973, Ireland (Éire) has transformed itself from a largely agricultural society into a modern, technologically advanced Celtic Tiger economy.

Ireland and the EU 1973-2003 Economic and Social Change (http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/statisticalyearbook/2004/ireland&theeu.pdf)

Then I think about EU I don't think about it as an income donor. First of all I appreciate that EU brings higher living, social and environmental etc politics' standards to my country and to the other regions of Europe (e.g. Eastern Partnership Program for the European countries outside of the EU). EU is an opportunity for all of us - Europeans - to learn a historical lesson and to change Europe making it a better place to live. EU is a precedent in the worlds history. It is the best what has ever happened to this continent. And nationalism (country/nation related) is based on emotions, but not logics. My own country has regained independence only 19 years ago. But this is why I support EU so much. Because I know how much different it is. Sometimes I can meet such loud phrases as "EU is the new USSR" or "EU is nazis" etc. Phrases like these are inadequate and are given by people who have no better "arguments" to get attention. And in my opinion any person who use analytical and critical thinking will not agree on those phrases and will support the Treaty.

Further more I look more fundamentally to the EU. In the prehistoric times such small (yes, tiny) countries like Germany, France or UK have had a great impact on world's political and economical issues. Maybe they still do. But we must understand that this was determined by history, e.g. industrial revoliuton which has started in Europe so Europe was the one which felt the benefit of this the first. But at the moment world is getting more and more global and we can't expect that such an anomalous situation will continue. At the moment the geopolitical pole is transatlantic. But in my opinion geopolitical strenght will converge to the absolute size of country's population. So in the future this may lead to the Far East as the highest geopolitical power in the world. For example, they are already talking about their own union, of course, we all know ASEAN exists already. Also they have founded their own IMF analogue. All we know that EU represents the highest or at least one of the most highest living standards in the world, so it would be beneficial both for us and for the world if EU would keep its strenght and influence. I guess than we won't avoid the Far East as a geopolitical power, but we can expect to keep the world at least multipolar if we will act united. And this really is not based on plain ambitions of mine as European.

We must get over that limit of our mentality. This is the only way forward. So let's go fast forward along EU. It's better then united and EU has proved that already. We need deeper integration for that and the Treaty of Lisbon provides us with that.

jOObhJtv_9Y DUQWxyE1JDQ

This is the position that I support (but as I've said, conclusions is for you to make):
http://rosemarymaccabe.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/lisbon_male.jpg http://www.yfg.ie/images/images/Lisbon%20female.jpg

---

And also if you are interested in or if you care about the EU and its future, please participate in the survey dedicated to this subject and tell your opinion. It will require about 5 minutes to finish the poll. You can find it here (http://www.polls4u.com/poll/59).

Thank you in advance.

I guess that is it from me :)

I am going to vote yes and I would encourage others to do the same. Remember there is every chance that the Conservative Party will form the next UK government and they will put their country to a vote which most think will be a "no". This treaty is in Ireland's interest and the EU and we could scupper those plans by those that are anti Irish (and don't forget that, these peoplle may have been lauding the no vote but they are not our freinds by any stretch of the imagination). Irish people are very pragmatic and are very aware and intelligent voters and I know that they will look favourably now. We have concessions which are good for us. We have no reason to vote no and I know this country wants a strong European Union. Like I say Europe is good for us and we are good for them. There is no reason to vote no this time out.

There wasn't any last time, but everyone is allowed one transgression I guess...

Hold on, we will vote as we please. This is a Republic and a democracy and if it is a no vote - so be it. I won't like it but I have to accept it. And that is that. The EU is not a donor to Ireland btw. It was when we first joined but not anymore.

The EU is not a donor to Ireland btw. It was when we first joined but not anymore.
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq195/Giedrius_LT/Ireland_vote_YES_to_Lisbon.jpg
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union).

That survey is from 2006 and only 600 million - trust me. Our aid budget to Africa alone is far larger then that. And anyway look at Belgium and Spain amongst rich countries - lol!

I think Belgium is pretty obvious, don't you?

And Spain, is it already over the EU average even? (Ireland is in the top btw).

I know Ireland is near the top of the wealth league but im saying that we give alot in aid and that has to be factored in. We are committed to 12% GDP for aid soon enough but we are in the top 5 donors per capita in the world for aid. So I don't rate EU figures regarding Ireland. If the EU was a "donor" to Ireland they would be paying for that aid!

12% GDP for aid??!!

Last time I checked only 5 countries in the world even top 0.7%!
Those were the Netherlands, Luxemburg and 3 of the Nordic countries.


EDIT- what I could find quickly...
http://www.usask.ewb.ca/node/58

That survey is from 2006 and only 600 million - trust me. Our aid budget to Africa alone is far larger then that. And anyway look at Belgium and Spain amongst rich countries - lol!
You don't need to excuse for that :lol: Yes, I know it's not much, but I'm only correcting your mistake of a fact.

To Irish voters, please vote yes. Of course I won't be voting as a non Irish resident, but the referendum affects me just as much as it affects Ireland- I don't really think it is right to have a national referendum on an EU issue either; why should a tiny proportion of EU citizens (ie no voters in Ireland), decide the future for 500m Europeans. Referendums in the EU should be conducted by the EU across the whole EU, not by individual countries. Anyway that's beside the point.

I expect some people voted no because they don't like the EU- people must get it out of their heads that a 'no' vote is a vote against the EU. The EU is here to stay, and most people want it to stay. A 'no' vote translates as 'I want the EU to stay as it is'. Clearly very few people should be voting no because those who are against the EU would vote yes so that it can become more democratic etc, and those in favour would vote yes so that it can become more powerful.

Many people think this an integrational treaty; perhaps if we referred to it as the Reform Treaty it would demonstrate that it is not.

If people vote 'no' again, it will be a waste of time. The treaty will only be amended and put back to referendum yet again, because what else can they do? We can't get anywhere with the EU until the treaty is ratified and comes into force. If people vote 'no' again and delay the treaty again, then the EU is going to stall as a superpower. While superpowers like China and India storm ahead to take centre stage in the coming decades, the EU will be pushed to the side as its dated political structure doesn't work.

I have to admit, I was quite dissapointed when the result came through from the last referendum. The 'no' vote was like throwing it all back in the EUs face after it improved standards of living, infrastructure and wealth directly and indirectly.

I don't really think it is right to have a national referendum on an EU issue either; why should a tiny proportion of EU citizens (ie no voters in Ireland), decide the future for 500m Europeans.


Ireland is constitutionally obliged to hold referenda on all significant changes to EU treaties because of a 1987 Supreme Court ruling - Crotty v. An Taoiseach (http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1987/4.html). This is because new treaties mean the constitution has to be amended - and the only way that can happen is through a referendum; as Article 46.2 of the constitution says:


2. Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.


Basically, the government and the Oireachtas (Parliament) do not have any control over whether or not to hold a referendum - they just have control over the date of the referendum.

And that is why the Irish constitution is such a beautiful document.

As for the last no vote, that was pure stupidity or laziness or both. The amount of people who I talked to on the subject were totally uninformed, yet voted anyway. "Whys that?" "Because I dont support abortion, I want to keep our corp tax rate and I dont want to be conscripted" ....i.e the Libertas party line. These people did a much more effective job of pushing a campaign of lies than the entire government yes campaign did when they had facts on their side, and people bought it because no one told them otherwise :ohno:

I will vote yes, as I did last time, because the treaty is clearly beneficial. It increases the powers of the only elected body in the EU all the while cleaning it up a little. The only improvement I would have liked to see, more so than a constant commissioner, is an elected president, i.e. elected by a referendum spanning every EU member and the result of which is based on a europe wide number, not the results in each state. And as far as possible from the american system :/

I know it is a Constitutional issue in Ireland, but that doesn't really change the point.

I would like to see a single elected President too. I think many would like to see that too- but quite a few reforms would need to take place to the working structure of the EU for that to happen.

Sorry I of course meant to say 1.2 percent.......:bash:


Anyway the government is not that popular here right now so there is a risk there - people might want to kick them using the referendum. I hope not but there will be some :/

I don't mind a single European president for the EU - however all states would have to maintain their own heads of state IMO.

In the treaty, if a country part of the EU becomes involved in a war we cant be a neutral party?

If this is correct I will be voting NO.

regards,

That is wrong and we have legally binding assurances of that anyway in the consessions.

Transport21, that is not correct. Although the EU has the rightful vision that it should speak with one voice internationally, the nation states have full control over their foreign, security and defence policies. It will be a long time, if ever, until this sovereignty is removed from the nation states. It would really need all of the states to agree together that they would pool this sovereignty- and that will never happen when we have such a wide range of foreign policies in the EU (take Iraq for example).

I also can't imagine each state giving up it's national head of government and/or state. The EU president is not intended to replace, or take power to any extent, from them.

Transport21, that is not correct. Although the EU has the rightful vision that it should speak with one voice internationally, the nation states have full control over their foreign, security and defence policies. It will be a long time, if ever, until this sovereignty is removed from the nation states. It would really need all of the states to agree together that they would pool this sovereignty- and that will never happen when we have such a wide range of foreign policies in the EU (take Iraq for example).

I also can't imagine each state giving up it's national head of government and/or state. The EU president is not intended to replace, or take power to any extent, from them.

The general public of Ireland have not been well informed of this treaty and dont really understand the new changes onto the existing constitution. What are the major changes in the treaty if any? It is normal for someone to vote No in a treaty if they dont understand what are the consequences of voting yes.

The general public of Ireland have not been well informed of this treaty and dont really understand the new changes onto the existing constitution. What are the major changes in the treaty if any? It is normal for someone to vote No in a treaty if they dont understand what are the consequences of voting yes.

Yes I understand the point there, but I do think the voters themselves have some responsibility to educate themselves on what they are voting for. If they don't, their only source of information is going to be other people, the media and the biased campaigns themselves.

The Lisbon Treaty is not an integrational treaty- it won't really affect what decisions are made where, or what power the EU has over nation states. It's about internal reform- reforming the way the EU works so it can be less bureacratic and more efficient. It attempts to address the democratic defecit. I expect most people would vote yes if they knew what it was actually about.

Yes I understand the point there, but I do think the voters themselves have some responsibility to educate themselves on what they are voting for. If they don't, their only source of information is going to be other people, the media and the biased campaigns themselves.

The Lisbon Treaty is not an integrational treaty- it won't really affect what decisions are made where, or what power the EU has over nation states. It's about internal reform- reforming the way the EU works so it can be less bureacratic and more efficient. It attempts to address the democratic defecit. I expect most people would vote yes if they knew what it was actually about.

Yes I would imagine a higher number would vote Yes if they knew they were not directly affected by this decision. If its for a more efficent reform of the EU then im all for that once there is no plan of gaining more power on small countries like Ireland. But we are entitled to vote yes or no and that is what democracy is all about. Were not going to be bullied into voting Yes. If its okay for the future of Ireland and the EU then the vote will be Yes.

The Lisbon Treaty is also called the Reform Treaty. Because its about the EU, people automatically assume its integrational.

The thing is, is that if the vote is no, then the contents of the Lisbon Treaty will just regenerate into some other treaty, because nothing really can happen until this treaty is passed. People are complaing about the democratic defecit, bureacracy, inefficiency and corruption- so the EU has come up with a treaty that addresses those issues. But people vote no? For once this has been the fault of the people not educating themselves properly on what it is, not the EU trying to get more power.

If you are trying to make out this is our fault - you are sorely mistaken.

If you are trying to make out this is our fault - you are sorely mistaken.

So whose fault is it then?

It's the fault of a number of Irish voters, and the Irish campaigns. Who else could possibly be accountable for the no vote? As already mentioned, it can't be the EU because they've formed a treaty with contents that the overwhelming majority of EU citizens want (particularly on the democracy issue).

If you are trying to make out this is our fault - you are sorely mistaken.

It is certainly the fault of uneducated Irish voters, our constitution affords us considerable rights, it is our responsibility to use them wisely. Simply voting "no" as a safe option because you do not understand (because you are too lazy to read a small booklet) a treaty is flawed logic. In this case, "no" has caused us and the EU damage, where a "yes" would simply streamline it.

btw, not talking about you specifically, odlum ;)

It is certainly the fault of uneducated Irish voters, our constitution affords us considerable rights, it is our responsibility to use them wisely. Simply voting "no" as a safe option because you do not understand (because you are too lazy to read a small booklet) a treaty is flawed logic.

Yes exactly, that's what I mean. It's a ridiculous justification for a 'no' vote.

It is certainly the fault of uneducated Irish voters <...>
It is fault of both the EU and national government of Ireland that the situation was like this. Of course, we can say that Irelanders are also guilty because of that. In general, people demand to have a right to tell their opinion, but later they do not use that right in a proper way.

Do you know what the EU is going to do if anything to change this situation? Will there be any organized actitivity carried out to educate people about the Treaty?

Well it's the Irish constitution that says there has to be a referendum, not the EU, so shouldn't it be the Irish government that are responsible for the running of the referendum campaign, not the EU?

I’m sitting on the fence on this because I don’t know enough about it but…

The EU (aswell as government polices) has transformed Ireland from the ‘slum’ of Europe into the, if not the most successful European country so going by that we should vote yes but for example on the other hand the EU has destroyed our fishing industry by imposing quotas as a result of over fishing by foreign nations so.

On another front I think it’s shocking the way we have puppets coming to Ireland trying to influence a no vote by spouting lies just because they don’t want the treaty ratified.

Well first of all hello from Brazil, and second (and pls correct me if i'm wrong), as i understand the Lisbon Treaty is the E.U. Constitution that they tried to pass in 2005. It's also said that you cannot read the treaty alone and try to understand it, since it is a series of amendments to other pieces of legislation.

I just think that they are trying to impose something, since the E.U. constitution was rejected in France and Holland, they made a treaty, that was not subject to referendum in those countries and only the irish supreme court were able to put this to vote since they saw the major changes that the treaty would bring to their constitution.
It's not very democratic to put the same issue in another referendum when the people of ireland has already voted "no" on this.

I have no say on this, since i'm not irish, but i can smell totalitarian shit like this across the ocean.
Try to watch some of Nigel Farage explaining the Lisbon Treaty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p9VC_P3Gf8

This is also very alarming:
http://workforall.net/Lisbon-Treaty-constitution-fraud.html

And pls try not to see this in the who gave more money or received more money from E.U.side, but what rights and sovereignty are you giving away when you rush these things.

Also the poll is quite biased, since if i could vote i would vote no and certanly not for laughs.

Anti Europeans like UKIP leader Nigel Farrage will argue that the Lisbon Treaty is the EU Constitution in disguise.

The basic, simple fact is that it is not. Yes, the Lisbon Treaty was born out of the failed Constitution, but for people who actually bother to compare them, they can see they are very different.

The Constitution had quite a lot of cultural elements in it- it was integrational to an extent. It proposed to make the flag, motto and anthem official for example.

The Lisbon Treaty has no cultural or integrational elements, it is basically only the reform part of the previous constitution proposal. The Lisbon Treaty should be judged on its own merits, not seen as the old constitution that has been laid to rest.

With regards to fishing, fishing makes up a very very small proportion of jobs in the EU. The quotas have been put in place to enable the fish stocks to last, rather than ceasing to exist due to overfishing. Someone has to tell the fishing industry to stop overfishing...

The Lisbon Treaty also make reference to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU, making it legally binding now. According to a lot of people over the web, if made legally binding it would give more powers to The European Court of Justice, to rule over labor disputes for example.

Here are the documents i read:

Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU -
http://openeurope.org.uk/research/charteranalysis.pdf

Some decisions of the EU court of Justice -
http://www.ier.org.uk/system/files/Decisions+of+the+ECJ+and+implications+for+UK+laws_0.pdf

Read the second decision about the Lavian company workers in Sweden, although protected by swedish laws in swedish territory, the EU court ruled that they should be paid Latvian wages. This open a very dangerous precedent for other labor decisions if the EU courts are given more power by the Lisbon Treaty.

Why do you think it is a 'dangerous precedent'?

The ECJ is already the highest court in the EU.

It's not very democratic to put the same issue in another referendum when the people of ireland has already voted "no" on this.

^^ Exactly and the elite only want one answer "YES". This country to country decision is a farce anyway. Why not have a percentage of yes and no and hold a referendum in the whole of Europe over a few days?

Seems Lisbon II is looking at a landslide, like Nice II had.


Support remains solid for Lisbon - poll
Sunday, 17 May 2009 21:20

A new opinion poll shows support for the Lisbon Treaty has consolidated since the last comparable poll in February.

The TNS/mrbi poll in tomorrow's Irish Times asked 2,000 people at 200 locations how they would vote in a new referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in light of the commitment to allow Ireland retain its EU Commissioner and with legal guarantees on concerns such as neutrality, abortion and taxation.

Of those surveyed, 52% said they would vote yes, 29% said they would vote no and 19% said they did not know.

When the don't knows are excluded, support for the treaty stands at 64.5% with 35.5% opposed to it.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0517/eulisbon.html

Last time, most of the no votes were comprised of 'don't knows' though. So if that happens again, it will be very close by that poll.

This is certainly hopefull...

Why do you think it is a 'dangerous precedent'?

The ECJ is already the highest court in the EU.

The dangerous precedent is opening up the choice for corporations to hire cheap labor from east europe, leaving your workers without a job. Unless of course they want to forfeit every work rights they have earn through decades of strikes and drop their wages below the minimum in you country.

As for polls, i never believed any polls made here in Brazil, always manipulated, were the polls in the first referendum showing a majority of yes votes also? Polls are powerfull if people are undecided and weak willed, they just go and vote with the crowd.

Polls never seem to be that accurate.

Well, I personally don't put my country first, ever. People come before the country- in other words, people in the UK and Ireland are generally quite well off. I support poorer people from Eastern Europe coming here because as far as I'm concerned they are exactly the same as us, and deserve the same standards of living. The bigger picture is that if the countries of the EU fully opened up, there would be waves of immigration at first. But over time, the wealth will start to balance out and there will be a fairly level playing field across Europe. I therefore have no problems with corporations employing people from other EU states, and so I don't see it as a dangerous precedent at all.

The point is that the countries from eastern europe have lower and fewer work rights, so if the EU courts keep judging its fair and square to hire from these countries while not respecting the previous stablished laws from countries that are more developed (working rights wise), they are setting the parameters by the lowest denominator, the workers from Latvia (in the sentence case) should receive the same rights and minimum wages as the swede ones, since they are in Sweden Territory. The corporations will sure use this Case Law in future hirings, leaving the better paid work force of the other members of the EU unemployed.

Aren't you from Brazil? What are you babbeling on about in that case? It's not like you live here and now what you are talking about...
The whole point of the EU is that those "lax laws and fewer rights" in EE countries get more in line with standards of the more developed countries, as well as raise the standard of living and in fact "developing" these countries...

Research shows that the countries which had the least barriers to workers from the new memberstates (first Poland etc, now Bulgaria and Romania) benefitted more vs the countries which put up more restrictions.

Whether they'll be voting Yes or No is up to each Irish voter of course, it's your poll, not mine.
I just wanted to add one thing about the "Democracy" part of this: if you're concerned about that aspect, then please do keep in mind that this treaty will mean more democracy in the EU, not less. It will increase power for the EU parliament, but also for the national parliaments: on a good number of issues, if there'll come legislation from Brussels that a quarter of national parliaments don't like, then those can send it back to Brussels pretty much indefinitely, until Brussels comes up with legislation that those parliaments actually can live with. We're going to get some pretty solid checks on subsidiarity with this one.

Aren't you from Brazil? What are you babbeling on about in that case? It's not like you live here and now what you are talking about...

Yes i'm from Brazil, and yes i don't live in the EU, but if you have a opinion on the subject being discussed, enlighten me, lecture me, pass the info you know; i mean people worry about the rain forest all over the world and they don't have to live here to be verbal about it, just because i care about this doesn't mean i know more about the subject then you do.

I'm not talking about not giving jobs to the workers of EE, i'm talking about workers right, by all means hire as many EE as you want, just don't drop the wages and forget about the country law for the sake of wealth redistribution.

The countries who put fewer barriers are right, i'm not contesting that, i'm not been xenophobic here, we were talking about the Lisbon Treaty right? i'm just addresing it's problems, like making the Charter of Fundamental Rights legally binding.

See this site here about the reasons to vote no in the referendum, the site is outdated, since some issues were adressed for the new referendum, but among the 20 are some pretty scary possibilities, like this one: 68 areas which are currently competencies of the EU will move from unanimity to qualified majority voting (QMV) at the European Council. This is how they pass shit you don't like, majority voting is a lobbist dream.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/23479

Ha Sinn Fein's paper. :lol:

Ha Sinn Fein's paper. :lol:

I'm not familiar with this irish political movement, is there anything wrong with what they claim about the Lisbon Treaty?

They represent the Provisional IRA. They have been opposed to every single EU treaty yet still claim to be able to square a circle of being pro European.

Ok, that's certanly not good, but then again are the things they are pointing out about the Treaty false, or even extrapolated to look really bad?

Because in this page, the number 9 reason is there: Shift from unanimity to majority voting, so even if the Sinn Fein is pro-IRA or something like that, they did not lie about this issue (oh and the Lisbon treaty for Dummies is more for me than for you guys:lol:).

http://www.independent.ie/special-features/your-eu/the-lisbon-treaty-for-dummies-1376340.html

Some news.

L. Walesa wants to persuade the Irish to accept the Lisbon Treaty (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=lt&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.delfi.lt%2Fnews%2Fdaily%2Fworld%2Farticle.php%3Fid%3D22313754&sl=lt&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1)

Polish "Solidarity" movement leader and former President Lech Walesa determined to go to Ireland and start a campaign to persuade the country's citizens to accept the European Union (EU) Lisbon Treaty reforms. <...>

"I have determined to go to Ireland to talk to him, Ganley, or in the presence and say:" Dear people of Ireland, support this treaty. <...>

This page was automatically translated from Lithuanian to English by Google. Haven't found any English articles about this yet. So don't be surprised if some of the phrases will look strange for you.

Persuasion from outside is not going to change the fact the government here is deeply unpopular at the moment so don't be supprised if an urge to kick the government manifests itself in the Lisbon Vote! Then again they could be forced from office before then. We will just have to wait and see. The popularity of the government is likely to be the EU's biggest concern come the vote.

Fianna Fail (http://www.fiannafail.ie/)
Fine Gael (http://www.finegael.ie/)
The Labour Party (http://www.labour.ie/)
Progressive Democrats (http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/)
IBEC (http://www.ibec.ie/)
Irish Farmers Association (http://www.ifa.ie/)
Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association
ICMSA (http://www.icmsa.ie/)
Alliance for Europe (http://www.yestolisbon.ie/)
Concern
Barnado's
Trocaire (http://www.trocaire.org/)
Irish Congress of Trade Unions (http://www.ictu.ie/)
American Chamber of Commerce (http://www.amcham.ie/)
Construction Industry Federation (http://www.cif.ie/) (CIF)
Consumer Electronic Distributors Association (CEDA)
Cork Chamber of Commerce (http://www.corkchamber.ie/)
Cork City Business Association (http://www.corkbusiness.ie/)
Dublin Chamber of Commerce (http://www.dublinchamber.ie/)
Dublin City Business Association (http://www.dcba.ie/)
Fashion & Footwear Federation
Financial Services Ireland (http://www.fsi.ie/)
Galway City Business Association (http://www.galwaycba.ie/)
ICT Ireland (http://www.ictireland.ie/)
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland (http://www.icai.ie/)
Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers (http://www.ipav.ie/)
Irish Banking Federation (http://www.ibf.ie/)
Irish Dairy Industry Association (IDIA)
Irish Exporters Association (http://www.irishexporters.ie/) (IEA)
Irish Franchise Association (http://www.irishfranchiseassociation.com/)
Irish Hardware & Building Materials Association (http://www.ihbma.ie/)
Irish Hotels Federation (http://www.ihf.ie/) (IHF)
Irish Medical Devices Association (http://www.imda.ie/) (IMDA)
Irish Software Association (http://www.software.ie/) (ISA)
Irish Tourist Industry Confederation (http://www.itic.ie/) (ITIC)
Irish Travel Agents Association (http://www.itaa.ie/) (ITAA)
Limerick Chamber of Commerce (http://www.limerickchamber.ie/)
Limerick City Business Association
Network Dublin (http://www.networkdublin.com/)
North Dublin Chamber of Commerce (http://www.nordubchamber.com/)
Pharmachemical Ireland (http://www.pharmachemicalireland.ie/)
Retail Ireland
Small Firms Association (http://www.sfa.ie/) (SFA)
Society of Irish Motor Industry (http://www.simi.ie/) (SIMI)
South Dublin Chamber (http://www.sdchamber.ie/)
Telecoms and Internet Federation (http://www.tif.ie/) (TIF)
Waterford Chamber of Commerce (http://www.waterfordchamber.ie/)
Concern (http://www.concern.ie) (NGO)

They all say YES! to the Treaty of Lisbon.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2009/0425/1224245370001_1.jpg
(you know you want the kiss ;))

---

http://cia.bzzz.net/files/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_no.jpg

1. I don't know what I'm voting for.

Education will be enough to solve the problem.

You will find full text of the Treaty of Lisbon here (http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/full_text/index_en.htm) (reading it is highly recommendable; there will be no place for the phobias left then). You will find the FAQ about the Treaty of Lisbon here (http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/faq/index_en.htm). The Treaty of Lisbon explained (http://www.irishurls.com/blog/2008/06/06/the-lisbon-treaty-explained/).

Also there is Consolidated Reader-Friendly Edition of the Treaty on European Union (TEU) and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) as amended by the Treaty of Lisbon (http://www.eudemocrats.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Reader_friendly_til_nettet.pdf).


2. To keep Ireland's power and identity.

Ireland has no power out of EU, sorry to tell that. Ireland can choose to have a voice through EU or not to have one at all.

EU is not aimed against Ireland's or any other country's identity. Both the casted-off Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon acknowledges the identity and dinstinctions of every of its member states.


3. To safeguard Ireland's neutrality.

The Treaty will have a protocol dedicated for Ireland. The protocol will consist of guarantees made exceptionally for Ireland regarding 3 areas:

one saying Ireland’s neutrality will not be affected;
one saying that the Lisbon Treaty does not change tax policy;
and one saying the Irish Constitution in the areas of the right to life, family and education will not be affected by either the Charter of Fundamental Rights or the new justice and home affairs articles in the treaty.

This is another reason why you have the 2nd referendum - you vote for the new conditions of the Treaty.


4. Don't like being told what to do.

Understand that. That's why I'm not saying how you should vote, I'm saying that I support the "Yes" position and I'm giving the facts. I also add that the conclusions are for you to make. But if "Yes" campaign says how to vote, the "No" one does the same.


5. EE/bigger countries will have too much power.

The "power" is adequate to the size of the country (economical, population size, etc). This can't be different. Small countries can acknowledge that and participate (and therefore have their say) or isolate themselves and don't have a voice at all. Of course, nationalists think their cock is the largest no matter what and logics are not necessary for them. The same goes for all of the countries, including EE. By the way, smaller countries have more power per capital than the big ones, you can calculate that by yourself taking into account the population and the number of European Parliament seats for example. In other EU institutions small countries have 1 diplomat just like the big ones, so it is even more small countries friendly if we will check the ratio. For example, Malta's and Germany's ratio regarding population is 410,290:82,060,000 or ~1:200 if we will reducate it, but in many of the EU institutions the ratio is 1:1, in the European Parliament it is ~1:20 (ten times in favour of Malta regarding population).


6. To help Irish farmers.

Irish Farmers Association (http://www.ifa.ie/), Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association, ICMSA (http://www.icmsa.ie/) - they support the YES! campaign.


7. To prevent too much immigration to Ireland.

So how does the Treaty of Lisbon affects immigration? Nonsense. Immigration policy of EU should be developed further, but the way lie campaigners give it is totally wrong. EU is developing its immigration policy and that is why the Blue Card (an analogue of the USA Green Card) will come into force in about two years period. Rejecting the Treaty of Lisbon won't reduce/prevent the immigration from the rest part of EU in no way, it's like healing flu with medicine for diabetes. The "No" campaigners are giving all the negative statements no matter if they are related with the concrete referendum object or not. They are simply manipulating people.


8. EU is too big already.

I would also like to see EU integrating more vertically than horizontally at the moment. But I'm not against Iceland or Croatia entry because those countries are small and won't have big effect on EU (but EU will have big and good effect on them). Also Iceland is well developed and Croatia meets the minimal conditions easily.


9. To safeguard Ireland's low corporate tax rate.

The Treaty will have a protocol dedicated for Ireland. The protocol will consist of guarantees made exceptionally for Ireland regarding 3 areas:

one saying Ireland’s neutrality will not be affected;
one saying that the Lisbon Treaty does not change tax policy;
and one saying the Irish Constitution in the areas of the right to life, family and education will not be affected by either the Charter of Fundamental Rights or the new justice and home affairs articles in the treaty.


10. To protest against the government.

Very wrong. This referendum will affect half a billion of EU citizens. It's not the place to protest against Irish inner problems. Understanding of this would be very appreciated.

---

Will I have to buy a ticket to Ireland to tell that for the people there on my own? :poke::|

Support for Lisbon Treaty increases to 54% (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0601/1224247818463.html)

The poll shows that 54 per cent would now vote Yes, an increase of two points since the last Irish Times poll two weeks ago, with 28 per cent saying they would vote No, a drop of one point. The number of people in the “Don’t Know” category has dropped by one point to 18 per cent.

When undecided voters are excluded, the Yes side has 66 per cent, with 34 per cent in the No camp. That compares to the referendum result last June of 53.4 per cent No and 46.6 per cent Yes.

That's a pretty solid yes block but remember it was higher then that at this stage prior to the vote last time so nothing to take for granted but I think Ireland will almost certainly vote yes this time out. The Irish Times is very pro treaty btw so it is somewhat biased IMO.

Yes everything is always fine coming from the mainstream media, even though the Irish Times is controled by the Irish Times Trust, or something like that.

Remember how i said that with the Lisbon Treaty the Charter of Fundamental Rights would become legally binding? and that Union Law is above Nacional Law?

So this has come to my attention and i like to share this piece of info with you:

http://euro-med.dk/?p=948

He even links to The European Convention on Human Rights law and footnotes that will make it possible for you to be executed under wartimes, danger of war or "in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection".

Now if the Treaty passes and later you protest against it you can be shot in the streets for rioting, how nice.

You are giving a source author of which is talking about New World Order adding some matter about islam, where the top banner of EU flag is related with the symbols which people relate with the NWO and other bull crap.

How desperate you have to be to give such a pathetic source. A guy is talking about death penalty and as usualy exaggerating and giving inadequate statements, just like you:
<...> you can be shot in the streets for rioting <...>

Further more even the picture in the "article" is not adequate showing swinged people probably somewhere from Iran.

If you are trying to prove that this is how most of Irelanders think then you are also trying to discredit and libel that country.

That is ridiculous, but as I have said that is so common in the statements of paranoiacs, full of perverse phobias, radicalistic shoutings and nationalism.

How about this:
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.

The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.

It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child.

It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.

Fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and as they result from the constitutional traditions common to the Member States, shall constitute general principles of the Union's law.

These quotes are taken directly from the Treaty and not from some sick paranoiac's portal.

Will I have to quote whole Treaty for Irelanders to stop believing in those lie campaingners.

How dare you to add some negative shadow to the Union or to the Treaty and manipulate people with that.

Have you ever heard about the principle of proportionality? Principle of what...

And yet you never touched the real issue, don't come with strawman arguments and insults, the LAW is there for all to see, is he wrong? even if you don't like the source i gave you, give one reason why the irish should vote for a piece of legislation that allow such thing to be even contemplated?

Let's also discard Prof. Karl Albrecht Schachtschneider ( http://www.erc2.org/105.0.html ), probably another lunatic trying to scare everyone, the big government has never given us any reason to distrust them right? it's not like corporations help to elect anyone in this lobby free world.

Edit: About the quotes taken diretly from the Treaty,every constitution in the world come with this oh so pretty and human rights parts, http://www.sierra-leone.org/Laws/constitution1991.pdf. , you have to look at the fine print of each contract to see what they are taking away from you.

Well, probably I really have to prove that any crap such guys as you found on the sick paranoiac's portals are inadequate or lies.

1 Any State may, at the time of signature or when depositing its instrument of ratification, acceptance or approval, specify the territory or territories to which this Protocol shall apply.

2 Any State may at any later date, by a declaration addressed to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, extend the application of this Protocol to any other territory specified in the declaration. In respect of such territory the Protocol shall enter into force on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of three months after the date of receipt of such declaration by the Secretary General.

3 Any declaration made under the two preceding paragraphs may, in respect of any territory specified in such declaration, be withdrawn or modified by a notification addressed to the Secretary General. The withdrawal or modification shall become effective on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of three months after the date of receipt of such notification by the Secretary General.

That's why the person who was commenting has mentioned that the protocol that I'm quoting was, as he/she says:
<...> conveniently forgotten <...>

Somebody enjoys manipulating people.

And I wonder why he have used so much "*" there. Additional mystical conditions? :lol:

Since you answered with a quote from the comments so shall i:

"I am not a lawyer and cannot estimate this in full detail, when the point lies in the footnote of a footnote.

All I can say is that when Prof. Schachtschneider tells us that the Lisbon Treaty implies a death penalty for, say demonstrations that get violent, then there is any reason to believe it.

Prof. Schachtschneider is a very prominent expert on EU law. His complaint before the German Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe of the Lisbon Treaty being in conflict with the German Constitution was so sharp and relevant that the Court banned German President Köhler from signing the Lisbon Treaty.

It is now one year later still uncertain if Germany actually can ratify the Lisbon Treaty."

We know that some people say that EU is not democratical enough because the only its directly elected institution, EP, has too little powers. So I will come back to this topic with this video, called The EU Parliament and the Treaty of Lisbon:
OCUF5t1kRlI

Pretty much it explains how the situation will change if the Treaty of Lisbon will be ratified by all of the states.

Yes to Lisbon - Yes to Democracy :)

Libertas vote fails to materialise (http://euobserver.com/9/28264)
"If I do not get a mandate and win a seat, I would not think it would be the right thing to lead a campaign against the Lisbon Treaty referendum," Mr Ganley recently told Irish television.

:applause:

FG, FF and Labour, all pro EU and pro Lisbon, have got 67.13% of the votes and all were the leading favourites in the EP elections in Ireland. Of course, voting for a party in the EP elections is not the same as voting for the treaty which is only a part of the policies of those parties. But still that gives a part of image.

Well done, Irelanders.

Sarkozy offers to come to Ireland
Thursday, 11 June 2009 12:52

RTE

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has said he would be prepared to travel to Ireland to help gather support for a referendum over the European Union's stalled Lisbon Treaty.

'Mrs Merkel and I will do everything we can to help the Irish make the choice for Lisbon,' he told a joint news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Paris.

'If it is of use, I would even be ready to travel to Ireland to support them,' he said.

AdvertisementMr Sarkozy's offer came as the Minister for Foreign Affairs said that EU member states were supportive of the additional guarantees for Ireland to be incorporated into the Lisbon Treaty.

Micheál Martin made the comments before the European Affairs committee. He was referring to discussions held at the last EU Council meeting in May.

He went on to say the sign-off on the legally-binding Irish guarantees would take place at the next EU Council meeting.

On further questioning from committee members, the minister said the precise date for the Lisbon Treaty Referendum would be decided by the Goverment after consultation with the Opposition parties.

Minister Martin said member states were sensitive to the Irish guarantees, as they were naturally concerned about the reaction of their own people to them.

Decoded: "We will make the Irish make the right choice":lol:

Second referendum on Lisbon may be held in late September (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0615/1224248850951.html?via=rel)
TAOISEACH BRIAN Cowen has spoken to key EU leaders in recent days in an effort to get an agreement that will allow the second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty to be held in late September or early October.

<...>

The Government is hoping to hold the referendum in the last week of September or the first week of October. The legislation to enable the referendum to take place is expected to be passed by the Dáil before it adjourns for the summer recess in early July.

The referendum will only go ahead if all other 26 countries agree to the legal guarantees for Ireland covering the issues of abortion, neutrality, tax and workers rights.

Lisbon 'essential to recovery' - Ibec (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0615/breaking27.htm)
Employers' lobby group Ibec has thrown its support behind the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, describing a Yes vote as essential to economic recovery.

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq195/Giedrius_LT/ibec.jpg

The UK Conservatives would not push for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty if it has been ratified by the Irish by the time they come to power <...>
Source (http://euobserver.com/9/28299).

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen has hailed as "entirely successful" the outcome of an EU summit in which a text designed to make the Lisbon Treaty more palatable to the Irish people was agreed.

Mr Cowen said Ireland had got its two key demands from the meeting - that treaty guarantees on interpretations of the treaty in the areas of tax, neutrality and ethical issues were agreed and that they will eventually be enshrined into EU law.

<...>

He would not be drawn on the exact date of the referendum saying only that a date would be set "as soon as possible." It is thought it may be held on 2 October.
Source (http://euobserver.com/9/28341).

Michael O'Leary to launch massive 'Yes' campaign.....

RYANAIR plans to run a massive 'Yes' campaign ahead of the second Lisbon Treaty referendum.

Chief executive Michael O'Leary revealed yesterday that the airline would launch "a very vociferous, very high-profile campaign on Lisbon".

Mr O'Leary said people would "have to be nuts" to vote 'No', and he launched a withering attack on 'Yes' politicians.

"The best way to getting it passed this time would be to get all the political parties to campaign actively for a 'No' vote and it would be a shoo-in by a landslide," he said.

- Stephen O'Farrell

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/airline-to-launch-massive-lisbon-yes-campaign-1777625.html

Exporters call for approval of Lisbon (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0623/breaking55.htm)

Without Europe, Ireland’s export industry will die, Liam Shanahan, chief executive of the Irish Exporters Association (IEA) has warned.

Speaking at the IEA annual president’s lunch today, Mr Shanahan said that Ireland’s participation in Europe is vital to our economic well-being, and emphasised the importance of a ’yes’ vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum in October.

“It’s not a question of a grey, complicated argument,” Mr Shanahan said referring to the Lisbon Treaty. “It’s simply a question of our economic well-being. If we don’t have a resounding ’yes’, this country’s in deep trouble."

Ireland exports 80 per cent of all goods and services produced here, with close to 50 per cent of sold to the European market (excluding the UK). “European customers are the lifeblood of our export sector,” he said. “For businesses and for workers, Europe means we still have a future.”

A recent survey carried out by the IEA found that 96 per cent of its members believe that membership of the EU is important to their business.

---

<...> a new independent organisation committed to promoting a Yes vote was launched in Dublin.

The group, Ireland for Europe, consists of figures from business, farming, trade unions, the arts and sport.

Its director, Pat Cox, is a former President of the European Parliament.

He described the launch as a call for action and appealed to the people of Ireland to stand up and be counted and not to just leave it to the politicians.

The group consists of high-profile figures including Seamus Heaney, U2's the Edge and Robbie Keane.
Source (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0621/eulisbon.html).

---

The government and supporters of the Yes campaign are winning over some of the sceptics (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6544532.ece)
Key opponents of the first Lisbon referendum are switching to the Yes camp as the government prepares to roll out a massive campaign to get the EU treaty adopted.

<...>

Finian McGrath, an independent deputy, and Ronan Mullen, an independent senator, are among those poised to switch from the No camp. Several non-political figures who opposed the first referendum are also changing sides or reconsidering last year's No vote.

Ben Dunne, a businessman, was one of the most high-profile opponents of the treaty last time. Now, he says he will be voting Yes although he continues to have reservations.

“I know we must vote Yes this time because I know it’s the right thing for the country,” he said. “My position the last time was that if you didn’t know, vote No, but I don’t want to be in any way involved with the No campaign now. I am a pro-European.”

Eamon Dunphy, a television pundit, has also changed his mind and will now vote for the treaty. <...>

---

Go Ireland.

Part of me wants to vote yes, the other part as I suspect with most of the population wants to vote no to get rid of the government.....choices,choices. As for the guarantees - they won't be legally binding protocol until the next accession treaty - that will be a pinch point in the months ahead. That and tbh most of the country did not even care about those issues in my honest opinion.

No, there are no choices in that regard odlum. A treaty with between 27 countries is not petty tool to be used in local politics, There are wider issues present here.

If FF are serious about passing this vote they should really leave now, do you not agree? How many governments where 15% of the population support them in opinion polls manage to pass referendums in the world? I would suggest it is not very many and that this is a disaster waiting to happen. The government is the biggest liability. The anger at them is enough on it's own to have this rejected no matter what scare tactics (which I detest btw) are used.

Im not saying I will vote no but it will be bloody tempting.

First of all, thats not going to happen. Governments dont just walk out. Second, political instability is the last thing we need now, as much as I dislike FF.

This has cross-party support, it has ryanair support ffs, there are very few issues of contention, and they will certainly not be the reasons underpinning a no campaign/vote unfortunately. For Ireland to vote no at this point, simply due to ignorance(as happened last time), would be economic and political suicide, and to add insult to injury, it would be for no reason at all. None. Whatsoever.

Voting no to spurn the government is just extension of the same political ignorance. It would have no effect on their remaining tenure, except to make it (and therefore Irelands problems) more difficult. Not to mention this treaty is not proposed by the government, but by the EU, something which Ireland still seems to like. So, no, I dont get why this would be tempting at all.

Hheh, I think I sound kind of arrogant here, but if Ireland votes no again for the same (non)reasons, I will be pissed off at my country.

October 2nd is the date

Lisbon Treaty referendum to be held on October 2nd

The second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is to be held on Friday, October 2nd, Taoiseach Brian Cowen told the Dáil today.

Mr Cowen said legal guarantees granted over Irish concerns about the EU reform package paved the way for a new poll. “On that basis, I recommended to the Government that we return to the people to seek their approval for Ireland to ratify the treaty,” he said.

“That referendum will take place on October 2nd.”

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny, whose party supports the Treaty said: "I would not underestimate the strength of the feeling of confusion that is out there.

"I am not in any way led by opinions poll at this stage which indicate this is just an exercise to be gone through," Mr Kenny said.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheal Martin said at a press conference today that the treaty is in the best interests of the country, as he published a guide to the document.

“The government believes that this treaty is good for Ireland and good for Europe,” he said. “Our task now is to bring our case before the people.”

The vote in October follows the rejection of the treaty by the electorate last year and the securing of guarantees on issues such as neutrality, taxation and ethics last month.

Employers’ body Ibec said ratifying the treaty was now more important than ever.

“The outcome of the next referendum will define Ireland's future relationship with Europe, and therefore with the world at large."

Mr Butler said “a very unhelpful question mark” hung over Ireland’s relationship with the EU.

“The last year has taught us that our future success is inextricably linked to the ambitions and interests of our partners in Europe, and to the success of Europe in the wider world. The Lisbon Treaty streamlines decision-making, gives Europe a stronger voice on the world stage and gives European citizens a greater say. It is a good deal for Ireland, and a good deal for Europe," he added.

Fine Gael's spokesperson on European Affairs Lucinda Creighton welcomed the Taoiseach's announcement of a date for the referendum and said her party would be "campaigning strenuously" for a yes vote.

"I welcome the announcement of the date for the Lisbon Referendum, and look forward to an active, positive campaign from Fine Gael over the coming months. We have between now and the 2nd of October to get out and
engage with the people of Ireland, and Fine Gael will be campaigning strenuously for a yes vote in the national interest."



Let the battle begin!

Website (http://www.lisbontreaty.ie/questions/) dedicated for the information on the Treaty of Lisbon.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/kermit2008/lisbon2.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/kermit2008/lisbon3.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/kermit2008/lisbon2.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii81/kermit2008/lisbon3.jpg

Interesting stats! Cheers for that!:)

The first 4 points on the 'against' are rubbish.

The yes/no camps might not be doing enough to push their arguments, but the voter still has a personal responsibility to know what they are voting on in a referendum.

The deal for Ireland has changed a little since the first referendum so it's not really the same either.

The 4th point is irrelevant to Lisbon. This affects the EU, so whether you have confidence in the Irish government or not is irrelevant. People shouldn't vote on national issues in referenda that affect the whole EU.

German daily FAZ looks ahead to the second referendum in Ireland on the Lisbon Treaty, and quotes Foreign Minister Micheál Martin saying that "democracies are complex", adding, sarcastically, "would a dictatorship not be delightfully simple?" He adds that "it was easier with the introduction of the common market and the euro."



The article quotes French President Nicolas Sarkozy telling Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen during a visit to Ireland last year: "Brian, I cannot imagine an EU without Ireland", which was regarded as a warning. Brian Cowen is quoted saying: "We don't lie to people. Everybody knows that it isn't about EU membership".

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub99C3EECA60D84C08AD6B3E60C4EA807F/Doc~E65E633D0C5CD476A9C2B091B3E15EBA5~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

I think calling the above a warning might be a little drastic.

All polls on politics.ie and boards.ie are showing a majority in favour of a "no" vote interestingly enough.....about the same as last time.

I really hope we dont shoot ourselves in the foot for non-existent reasons again -_-

All polls on politics.ie and boards.ie are showing a majority in favour of a "no" vote interestingly enough.....about the same as last time.

I really don't think those sites (or self-selecting polls) are representative of everyone in Ireland. :lol:

When you see a poll of 300+ posters on each site giving more or less the same result you would have to wonder...there is alot of justified anger out there with the government. Alot of people would find it galling to give a yes to anything they put in front of them.

Its still unnerving though.

Late swing to No vote on Lisbon worries main parties



Research by Yes campaign shows majority of voters back treaty but are open to persuasion
Shane Coleman, Political Editor



THE potential for a significant late swing to the No side in the upcoming Lisbon referendum has been found in private focus group research which shows that the passing of the EU treaty is far from guaranteed.




The research, carried out by elements of the Yes campaign, confirms recent opinion polls that show a comfortable majority of voters backing the treaty.




But it also shows that a "significant percentage" of the Yes vote is soft and could be persuaded to switch sides in the final weeks of the campaign.




"There is a very substantial Yes vote and there is a less substantial No vote but when you drill into those figures, the No vote is much more solid and less prepared to be turned. The research shows a significant number of voters on the Yes side that could be termed soft Yes voters," said one campaigner for the treaty.




There is concern among some elements of the Yes campaign that complacency has started to creep in as to the outcome of the referendum on 2 October.




"The idea that this is going to be a routine victory for the Yes side is a dangerous delusion. There is a presumption in parts of government that we are going to coast this," one senior figure on the Yes side told the Sunday Tribune.




And while there is an acceptance that the campaign will not begin in earnest until September, some on the Yes side are worried by what they see as a "lack of engagement" and fear they could be "sleep walking" to another defeat.




"It would be wrong to say it's currently a tight race. It's not. The referendum is definitely winnable – the research shows that. But it's not a certainty. It's not a done deal. It will require more positive campaigning, not slagging off the No side. The fear factor alone won't work and we need a lot more energy in the Yes campaign. People who voted No last time [but are looking to vote Yes in October] will be angry if they think their vote is being taken for granted," the senior Yes figure said.




Yes campaigners say there has been "an inexorable increase" in distrust of Europe in Ireland. There is a rock solid 35% who will vote No on any EU referendum, made up of a mix of left-wing voters who believe the EU has fostered a neo-liberal agenda and conservatives who believe Brussels has had a negative impact on Irish society.




The research shows that the percentage of people who will definitely vote Yes is slightly higher than the 35% core No vote, but there is a further 25% of the electorate who, the research shows, could be persuaded to change their minds on the issue.




While a majority of that 25% are currently planning to vote Yes, "the potential is there for people to shift from the Yes camp," a source who has studied the research warned.

August 16, 2009


www.tribune.ie


Complacency and an urge to punish the Government seem to be the biggest issues facing the "Yes" campaign.

Complacency and an urge to punish the Government seem to be the biggest issues facing the "Yes" campaign.

Indeed, and that's why Fine Gael and Labour need to hijack the "Yes" side campaign before everyone begins to associate it (again) with Fianna Fáil.

Cox says McCreevy claim on Lisbon 'groundless'


STEPHEN COLLINS


THE CLAIM by Ireland’s EU commissioner Charlie McCreevy that people in most EU countries would have voted No to the Lisbon Treaty was “sweeping, false and entirely groundless”, according to the director of Ireland for Europe, Pat Cox.

The former president of the European Parliament, whose independent people’s campaign is advocating a Yes vote in the forthcoming referendum, said that selectively pointing to negative referendum results in France and the Netherlands on the constitutional treaty in 2005 wilfully ignored the corresponding positive votes in Spain and Luxembourg.

“If one takes the Yes and No votes cast in the four votes by referendum on the constitutional treaty the overall number voting Yes came to 26.7 million voters, while the number voting No was 22.7 million, a popular majority of four million voters across borders,” Mr Cox told the Chambers of Commerce in Killarney yesterday.

“It certainly does not sustain the sweeping, false and entirely groundless assertion that 95 per cent of countries would have voted No. It is sceptical in tone, wrong in substance and populist in perspective.”

Mr McCreevy said after the No vote in last year’s Irish referendum on the treaty that the result in most member states would have been the same had the treaty been put to the people.

Mr Cox said yesterday that each EU state was free to choose how it ratified treaties, whether by representative democracy in the form of votes in their respective national parliaments or by referendum.

“However, as regards the Lisbon Treaty, all member states except Ireland have chosen to ratify the treaty through their national parliaments.

“Both France and the Netherlands held national elections after the constitutional treaty was defeated by referendum. The eventual winners indicated in advance to their electorates their intention to ratify the upcoming EU amending treaty by the parliamentary method. They won electoral mandates to do so.”

Mr Cox said the national parliaments of Ireland’s 26 partner states in the EU had voted for Lisbon. In three of those countries – the Czech Republic, Poland and Germany – final formal ratification was still being awaited.

“Almost 7,400 national parliamentarians have voted on the Lisbon Treaty...Of these thousands of elected representatives across the EU, 85 per cent voted Yes, 11 per cent voted No and 4 per cent abstained. If votes count this tells us something, something different to Commissioner McCreevy’s assertion.”

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

Charlie McCreevy propping up the "no" vote again. Tis in the bag. Now all that is needed is some French minister to shoot his/her mouth off ;)

Intel Ireland is funding a campaign for a yes vote in Ireland.

http://www.intel.com/corporate/europe/emea/irl/intel/lisbon/


http://www.intel.com/corporate/europe/emea/irl/intel/index.htm?iid=IRLSHORT+Lisbon&

"at the heart of Europe" added I see.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/news/releases/2009/images/yes-vote1.jpg

http://www.ryanair.com/site/news/releases/2009/images/yes-vote2.jpg

http://www.ryanair.com/site/news/releases/2009/images/yes-vote3.jpg

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=aug&story=gen-en-250809

www.tribune.ie


Complacency and an urge to punish the Government seem to be the biggest issues facing the "Yes" campaign.

never the issues hey? Those Irish must be really dumb bastards, never being able to concentrate on the issues to do with the Lisbon Treaty itself... poor t'ick oirish!

That is why if the Irish vote no again they will be made to have another referendum, and another, and another

At least the Irish government has given her people the opportunity to cast their vote on Europe.

In the UK the people have been denied the right.

never the issues hey? Those Irish must be really dumb bastards, never being able to concentrate on the issues to do with the Lisbon Treaty itself... poor t'ick oirish!

That is why if the Irish vote no again they will be made to have another referendum, and another, and another

And people wonder why we wanted independence?


Just returned from the world cultural/multicultural festival in Dun Laoghaire. God I love you Ireland!
The fact that this kinda 'superiority/racist' shit still existed escaped my mind for a couple of hours!!!!!!

Moved here from Norway when I was teen and never looked back! Thank god I don't feel the need to go around patronising other countries like the asshole above.
The same goes for those, from the roi and elsewhere, who talk about the north like it's something they scraped off their boot.
Seriously, worry about your problems at home and actually 'really learn' about the two different countries before you decide to go around casting judgement about them!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm kinda drunk btw:cheers:

So Micheal O'Leary is putting "yes to Lisbon" signs on his planes....that might go down like a lead balloon in some countries!

Odlum833, what are the notions in Ireland? I mean, the public opinion. Maybe you know some recent poll about this issue. Are there any changes in the support of any of the positions?

Very latest poll showed 36 per cent said they were likely to vote in favour and 23 per cent against. But a significant 37 per cent remain undecided. I think the yes side has a lead overall IMO.




A number of interesting posters and images are popping up all over the place

http://www.people.ie/contreaty/card2.gif


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_27qQ3O-QYbk/SKIBT4mlqlI/AAAAAAAAAEU/53ZPfdh5_K0/s320/ghghgh.jpg


http://i27.tinypic.com/347jnly.jpg


http://i25.tinypic.com/2ztdbi1.jpg

There is still a strong possibility that a NO vote will result from the next referendum. I don't blame anyone for voting NO, its the same as going to sign a contract, if you don't know what it entails then don't sign it.

The same mindset should be cast on the Lisbon Treaty if the general public don't understand what changes the treaty will make.

There is still a strong possibility that a NO vote will result from the next referendum. I don't blame anyone for voting NO, its the same as going to sign a contract, if you don't know what it entails then don't sign it.

The same mindset should be cast on the Lisbon Treaty if the general public don't understand what changes the treaty will make.

That is of course normal. But I hope that Irish government has learned the lesson in the 1st refferendum. You can not excuse for the same thing twice.

If it would come out that Irelanders haven't understood the treaty again then I would really question if it is possible to teach the society about the such a complex treaty at all.

We can ask why do we need government. Probably because we need specialist to handle those political problems. It is quite clear that society in general does not have such a competence as those specialists do have (that doesn't mean we should blindly trust them).

However, I won't give any undemocratic claims. But I really do not hope that the decision will be based on logical conclusions regarding the treaty's content itself. It will be based on attitude towards EU, nationalism (or lack of it), inner political problems (protest against your own government), lack of knowledge about the treaty and so on.

And this really doesn't cheer me up. Knowing that your future is shaped by an incompetent guess, some subjective protest even not related with the essence of the refferendum, etc.

People always wish for more democracy (I do also). So now Irelanders have a chance to use the privileges that democracy provides. Please use them properly. Reading and analysing the treaty is the duty of all of you even if the government or somebody else does not teach you about it like kids are teached in schools you have to show your own initiative.

That is my opinion. It shouldn't look like I am trying to tell you what to do, but still I feel a need to express myself and I think my suspense to see decision (whatever it would be) made responsibly is reasonaled.

There is still a strong possibility that a NO vote will result from the next referendum. I don't blame anyone for voting NO, its the same as going to sign a contract, if you don't know what it entails then don't sign it.

The same mindset should be cast on the Lisbon Treaty if the general public don't understand what changes the treaty will make.

I don't agree. Everyone should vote and they should have a responsibility to educate themselves on what they're voting for, not expect everything to be spoon fed to them and if it isn't then vote against as they did last time.

Anyway, I was in Dublin yesterday and the city was plastered in 'Yes' posters. Hardly saw any 'No' posters by comparison.

Good article about the referendum posters...


The Lisbon lamp-posts

Sat, Sep 05, 2009

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2009/0905/1224253879599_1.jpg

PRESENT TENSE: YOU WILL, no doubt, be looking forward to the thrills and spills of another Lisbon referendum. Lisbon 2 – wouldn’t it be great if we could turn it into a trilogy? Imagine all the undecideds, and the fun they’ll have over the next four weeks. After 18 months of pondering, making up their mind, voting, not being sure again, having to put an X in at least one of the boxes. Their brains won’t be thanking them for the exercise, writes SHANE HEGARTY.

It’s been a low-key campaign until now, but with the turning of the month the posters have risen and unfurled on the country’s lamp-posts. A referendum campaign is always particularly good for posters. During elections, candidates generally keep to affecting a visage of competence and an insistence that you give them your number one. But in referendums, posters tend to be split into two types: those that deploy some deeply thoughtful and usually shallow slogan; and those that, to put it in general terms, tell you that by voting for the proposal in question you will be condemning yourself or your children to slavery.

This week, the two sides became more visible on the streets. On the Yes side a chief lesson should have been not to treat this campaign as an opportunity to gain a bit of personal publicity – such as how Eamon Gilmore used the previous referendum as if it were a chance to impose the trappings of a personality cult through the country’s streets. Yet, there’s Enda Kenny, or his waxwork, alongside the “Yes to Recovery. Yes to Europe” slogan.

Slogans, as always, have something to say – even when they’re saying little. Fianna Fáil has deployed the direct “We Need Europe”, which seems to suggest that our island will be politically untethered and let float free should we vote no. The We Belong posters feature clean-cut, middle-class sorts and a slogan, “We Belong, You Decide”, that doesn’t seem to mean a whole lot. “We belong,” makes sense on its own. “You decide,” makes sense on its own. But as a duet, they just don’t work. It is the Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder of campaign slogans. Besides, “We Belong. You Decide” is weak. It’s a slogan that starts off being assertive, but then backs off a bit.

To be fair, it’s a problem for the Yes campaign in this kind of referendum, this struggle to condense the complexities of a lengthy pan-European legal document into a snappy line to lodge in the minds of motorists and bus passengers. An underestimation of this was among the many flaws in the Yes side’s strategy during the first campaign.

The No side, on the other hand, has a potent weapon: fear. Fear of loss of power, control, money. Which is why the anti-Treaty group Cóir this week produced a couple of posters that sat very neatly in the tradition of producing a line that is so outrageous it just might work.

Its “€1.84: minimum wage after Lisbon?” poster ended up with far more coverage than such a claim deserved. This revealed the problem the Yes side faces. It ends up spending time and effort refuting an arresting but extreme claim. As if it doesn’t have enough difficulty just trying to explain to people what the Treaty is about in the first place, they find themselves, in an exasperated tone, explaining what it’s not about, even at times when the accusation in question is as watertight as a boat made of sieves.

Yet, even if – as some have speculated – Cóir’s claim is so ridiculous as to shred its credibility from the start, there should be no underestimating the insidiousness of a decent poster in an argument with only two sides.

In the US healthcare debate, there’s a reminder of this in the Obama-as-Heath-Ledger’s-Joker poster, to which the word “socialism” is added. The poster was, it is claimed, created by a student using some software that allows anyone to “Jokerise” an image – but created without any political intent. And although it will never achieve the status of the ‘Hope’ image attached to Obama’s election campaign, it has become an icon of the healthcare debate, an image around which the president’s opponents rally, delighted in their mischief. And it is somewhat more creative than their accusations of Nazism.

The Lisbon 2 posters are nowhere near that strong – although one anti-Treaty poster has appropriated the Sex Pistols’s Never Mind the Bollocks - but already we find ourselves diverted by insistent, focused ranting from the lamp-posts. They may bring the debate to a low level, but shock posters can have a “stickiness” that can prove hard to shake off.

© 2009 The Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0905/1224253879599.html)


And, just for the record, Cóir are a bunch of far-right religious lunatics.

Declan Ganley has appeared again...in the Wall Street Journal

How the Irish Can Save Civilization (Again)
Just say no to the Lisbon Treaty. Again..


SEPTEMBER 10, 2009, 4:48 P.M. ET



In three weeks' time, Ireland will, for a moment, hold the fate of Europe in its hands. Through a quirk of Irish constitutional procedure, on Oct. 2 the Republic of Ireland will be the only European Union nation to hold a referendum on a treaty to revamp how the EU, home to half a billion people, does business. The Lisbon Treaty, therefore, will stand or fall on the votes of perhaps one and a half million Irishmen and women.

From the perspective of Brussels, this is grossly unfair—a miscarriage of democracy masquerading as democracy. The Irish have stymied the denizens of Brussels' European Quarter before, most recently the first time they voted against the Lisbon Treaty last year.

Back then, the establishment in Brussels blamed one man above all for the defeat. His name is Declan Ganley. He was one of the driving forces behind the No campaign the last time around, and he's back to do it again. Your correspondent recently sat down with him to find out what he's fighting for in trying to see to it that Ireland once again votes No to Lisbon—and in the process, he hopes, forces the EU to choose a different path.

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/EG-AB550_GANLEY_DV_20090910142840.jpg


.I put it to Mr. Ganley, an impeccably dressed, balding Irishman of 42, that from Brussels, this whole referendum looks profoundly unjust. Why should 1.5 million Irish voters get the opportunity to hold back the progress of 500 million citizens of Europe?

"I would look at it a very different way," he shoots back. "It's profoundly undemocratic to walk all over democracy. . . The Irish people had a vote on the Lisbon Treaty. They voted no. A higher percentage of the electorate voted no than voted for Barack Obama in the United States of America. No one's suggesting he should run for re-election next month. But—hey, presto!—15 months later we're being told to vote again on exactly the same treaty." He taps the table for emphasis: "Not one comma has changed in the document."

But the insult to democracy is more egregious, in his view, than simply asking the Irish to vote twice—that was already done to Ireland with the Nice Treaty in 2002. In this case, it is not just the Irish whose democratic prerogatives are being trampled, but the French and the Dutch, among others, as well.

In 2005, France and the Netherlands each rejected the proposed EU Constitution in referendums. Lisbon, Mr. Ganley contends, "is the same treaty." What is the evidence for that? "Well, first of all, the people who drafted the European Constitution say it is. Like [former French President Valéry] Giscard d'Estaing. He called it the same document in a different envelope. And having chaired the presidium that drafted the Constitution, he would know." There's more. "He also said in respect of the Lisbon Treaty that public opinion would be led to adopt, without knowing it, policies that we would never dare to present to them directly. All of the earlier proposals for the new Constitution will be in the new text, the Lisbon Treaty, but will be hidden or disguised in some way. That's what he said. And he's absolutely right. There is no law that could be made under the European Constitution that cannot be made under the Lisbon Treaty. None."

So in trying to ram the Lisbon Treaty through, the EU is also undoing the democratic choice of the French and Dutch electorates. "Millions of people in France, a majority, voted No to this European Constitution. In the Netherlands, millions of people did exactly the same thing. When the Irish were asked the same question, they voted no also. Those three times that it was presented to an electorate, the people voted no." Far from thwarting the will of those hundreds of millions of fellow Europeans, then, the way Mr. Ganley sees it, Ireland has a duty to them to uphold the results of those earlier votes. Approving the treaty would be a betrayal of those in France and the Netherlands—not to mention the millions of others who were never offered a vote on the Constitution or Lisbon.

Mr. Ganley speaks in a low, measured tone, even when, as he occasionally does, he slips into rhetorical bomb-throwing mode. "Why," he asks, "when the French voted no, the Dutch voted no and the Irish voted no, are we still being force-fed the same formula? You don't have to scratch your head and wonder about democracy in some intellectualized, distant way and wonder, is there some obscure threat to it." He adds, without raising his voice, "This is manifest contempt for democracy. It is a democracy-hating act. . . . This is so bold a power grab as to be almost literally unbelievable."

The nature of the power grab that Mr. Ganley refers to deserves some elaboration. What, exactly, is wrong with the Lisbon Treaty itself? "The treaty is a product and indeed enshrines a set of principles and a way of governing the European Union that clearly shows no will or intent for democracy," Mr. Ganley says. "You will hear it discussed quietly across the dinner tables in certain sections of Brussels and elsewhere that we're entering into this post-democratic era, that democracy is not the perfect mechanism or tool with which to deal with the challenges of global this-that-or-the-other. This idea of entering into some form of post-democracy is dangerous. It's ill-advised. It's naïve."

The Lisbon Treaty, like the EU Constitution would have, puts this idea of post-democracy into practice in a number of concrete ways. The most striking is Article 48, universally known by its French nickname, the passerelle clause. It says that "with just intergovernmental agreement, with no need of going back to the citizens anywhere, they can make any change to this constitutional document, adding any new powers, without having to revisit an electorate anywhere," Mr. Ganley explains. "Do you think they want to revisit an electorate anywhere? Of course they don't." If the Irish vote yes, in other words, Oct. 2 would mark the last time that Brussels would ever have to bother giving voters a say on what the EU does and how it does it. Ireland would have, in effect, voted away the last vestige of European direct democracy not just for itself, but for the entire continent.

The passerelle clause is not the only evidence in the treaty of a post-democratic mindset. "The other thing it does," Mr. Ganley says, "is it creates its own president—the president of the European Council, commonly referred to as the president of the European Union." This EU president, Mr. Ganley notes, "will represent the European Union on the global stage. This will be one of the two people that Henry Kissiner would call, in answer to his famous question, when I want to speak to Europe, who do I call? He's now going to have a telephone number, a voice that speaks for Europe, because that voice will have half a billion citizens, legally."

The other person who would speak for Europe is the "grandly named" High Representative for Foreign and Security Affairs, the EU's foreign minister, in effect. Mr. Ganley is, as he puts it, "cool with that." But there is this: "Presumably they're going to be speaking for me, right, because I'm a citizen," he says. "But I don't get to vote for or against these people. So, who mandates them, if not me, as a citizen, or you? Oh, so somebody who is how many places removed from me selects from within one of their own. They never have to debate with a competitor. I'm never given a choice of, do you want Tom, Joe or Anne. I'm presented with my president. Do I walk backward out of the room now?" Just as a yes vote in Ireland would mean that future expansions of the powers of the EU would never have to be put to a popular vote, it would also mean that Europeans would never get the opportunity to elect its highest officials.

It's easy to see why Mr. Ganley has made himself unpopular in Brussels. And yet, he avows, "I am a committed European. I am not a euroskeptic, not in any way, shape or form. I believe that Europe's future as united is the only sensible way forward." It's just that he fears that Europe, as it is presently constituted, is setting itself up for a fall. "I'm very sure about one thing," he says. "Which is, if it is not built on a solid foundation of democracy and accountability and transparency in governance, then it will fail. And it's too valuable a project, and it has cost too much in terms of blood and treasure, to create an environment where this could happen."

The whole political dynamic in the European Union, he argues, is outmoded. To talk of only euroskeptics and europhiles actually serves the interests of the mandarins in Brussels because it doesn't allow for the existence of a loyal opposition or constructive dissent. But a loyal opposition is precisely what Mr. Ganley hopes to create. "What I've been saying since the beginning of the last Lisbon campaign, it blows fuses in Brussels," he says. "They just can't process it. The system crashes. They have to reboot every time because I don't fit into the euroskeptic box." Their mentality, he says, is "friend-enemy. Uh, no." And he points to himself: "Friend—a real friend, because I'm telling you the truth. I'm telling you, you've got a problem and we've got to fix it."

He adds, referring to the European establishment in Brussels: "I've got news for them. This little European citizen, along with millions of others in France, the Netherlands and Ireland, have now said something to them. And they can either carry on the way that they're going, and fail, or they can listen to the people, engage them, and bring them along with them."

Instead of a dense, almost unreadable treaty that shuffles the deck chairs of the Berlaymont building in Brussels, the Commission's headquarters, Mr. Ganley would like to see a readable, 25-page document that provides for the direct election of an EU president, greater transparency in decision-making and a bigger voice for the people of Europe. "We have to ask more of people," he says. But equally, "we have to trust people. They talk about the democratic deficit. The deficit of trust is a yawning gap right now in Europe. And the biggest loss of trust has been between those that govern and the people, not the other way around. What was it Bertolt Brecht said? 'That the people have lost the confidence of their government?' This is the identical mentality."

***
Still, for all this talk about democracy and higher principles, the people of Ireland have their own parochial concerns to consider as well. There's been a lot of talk about how a No vote could hurt the Irish economy in some way. And a number of big multinationals in Ireland have called on the Irish to ratify the treaty and let it go forward. Is Mr. Ganley putting his country at risk by calling for a No vote?

He emphatically denies it. "The only people at risk in the Lisbon Treaty are these elites in Brussels," he scoffs. "Somebody said last time that Ireland would be the laughing stock of Europe if we voted no. Well, we voted no, and actually these elites in Brussels became the laughing stock of the people of Europe. That's what I saw in the weeks that came afterwards." He goes on: "The only people we risk annoying are a bunch of unelected bureaucrats and what I call this tyranny of mediocrity that we have across Europe." What's more, he says, "the Irish have never been afraid throughout history of asking the tough questions and standing up for freedom and what was right against much, much bigger opponents. In fact, we seem to revel in it."

It was easier to revel, however, when Ireland was still enjoying a boom of historic proportions. Will the Irish decide, this time around, that it is safer to keep their heads down, and go along with the program? In Mr. Ganley's view, this would be totally self-defeating. If Ireland votes Yes, he says, "We're getting nothing in return except to be patted on the head by some mandarins and told we're good Europeans. Would we be acting as good Europeans if we said yes to this?" He thinks not. "If this question was asked of the people of Europe, whether they wanted this constitution, we know almost for sure that en masse they would vote no." And yet, "We're almost literally being held hostage, with a gun pointed to our head, and being told, if you don't sign this thing, unspecified bad things will happen. But what they're asking us to do is to sell out the rest of the people of Europe."

And the whole European project—which he supports—"has to be about 'We, the people,'" Mr. Ganley says. "It's not top-down, it's got to be bottom-up. And the European Union right now is top-down. It does not have the support of the mass of its people. It does not have their engagement. They don't even know what's going on. And it literally conducts its business behind closed doors, and that has to stop and it has to stop now." If Mr. Ganley has anything to say about it, it will stop in three weeks, in a little country called Ireland on the Atlantic periphery of Europe.



Mr. Carney, the editorial page editor of The Wall Street Journal Europe, is the co-author of "Freedom, Inc.," due out in October.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574404643114251588.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


Is Declan Ganely actually getting involved again?

Looks like the Libertas website is about to come to life

http://www.libertas.ie/

The place on internet for every Irish person to visit:
http://www.irelandforeurope.ie/

So now Irelanders have a chance to use the privileges that democracy provides. Please use them properly.

x2.

Whatever your position on the Treaty, please go vote and implore your families and friends to go out and vote as well!!

:cheers:

Declan Ganley v Michael O'leary tonight live on RTE 9.35pm. Its going to be gas!

lol!

O'leary destroyed Declan Ganley :lol: Ganley is a twat! Failed politician! For someone who has lived in Ireland since he was kid he speaks the Queens English very well! He should fuck back of to wherever he came from and let Irish people sort their own issues out!

Love it when Miriam has to tell O'Leary to stop bullying Ganley lol...

AbuyGJKxp9I

FCKvw0OtRgE

Think Ganley possibly edged it. O'Leary did not come across all that well where as Ganley seemed composed and calm.

"no free chicken dinner on Ryanair" - lol

Opposition to Lisbon increases - poll
Friday, 25 September 2009 16:03
A new opinion poll shows that opposition to the Lisbon Treaty has grown in the last fortnight, but that the Yes side is still comfortably ahead.

The TNS/mrbi poll in today's Irish Times shows that when undecided voters are excluded, the Yes side leads by 59% to 41%.

With one week to polling day, the No side has gained some ground, up four points to 33% since the last Irish Times poll two weeks ago, while 48% said they would vote Yes, an increase of two points.

The percentage of those who said they did not know has fallen by six points to 19%.

The poll questioned 1,000 voters around Ireland about their intentions on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week.




www.rte.ie/news

Hello all!

Just a quick question, that hopefully some Irish member can clarify. I recently read the following somewhere:

As an interesting aside that may not be known outside of Ireland - the last referendum was held when many students were out of the country. There are lots of students in Ireland (its currently no fees to undergraduates). As a crowd they would appear much more likely to vote yes than the older generations. If the students get out and actually vote I would expect a yes to be very likely.

and I was wondering how much of this is true?

:cheers:

Im in college and that is untrue. It is true that students from wealthier backgrounds tend to be more supportive but overall many I have talked to see the situation as obscene. They have already voted. They don't want to vote again on the same thing (as they see it). Many probrably won't vote this time.

That sucks.... :(

Election Day!!! Get out there and make your Vote heard!!!!!!!! :)

Make sure to :gossip: your family and friends to go out and vote as well!

:cheers:

^^ what he said. Today is a very important day, realize it.

Off to vote this evening. I['m voting yes, but it's a pity it'll prob be the last time we get to vote on European issues because Lisbon will be self-ammending.

Funny poster I found on the net.



http://i36.tinypic.com/259wylt.jpg


Brings back memories of a toliet in a fancy pub in central Rome I was in back in 2005. Major shock when I got down to the toilet to discover a whole in the ground :shocked:. Unfortunately, the person who had used it before me wasn't on target, and left a brown present on the toilet floor.
Gross, :puke:

Off to vote this evening. I'm voting yes <...>
Thank you. Please be sure to go to vote.

<...> it's a pity it'll prob be the last time we get to vote on European issues because Lisbon will be self-ammending.
Is the Lisbon Treaty self-amending?

No, but it does introduce changes in the way in which the EU treaties can be amended.


Present position

At present, the process for amending the treaties is as follows: All the member states get together in what is called an Inter-Governmental Conference (IGC). This conference agrees proposals for changes to the Treaties. In order for these proposed changes to come into effect, they must be ratified by each member state in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. In Ireland’s case, that may or may not require a referendum. Whether or not a referendum is needed is mainly dependent on whether or not the changes involve a change to the essential scope or objectives of the EU.

This process is called the “ordinary revision procedure” in the Lisbon Treaty.


Changes introduced by the Lisbon Treaty

The Lisbon Treaty provides for what is described as “simplified revision procedures”. There are two such procedures.

One provides that the European Council may unanimously agree changes to the parts of the Treaties that deal with the internal workings of the EU. This means that any member state may veto such a change. Such changes may not increase the competence of the EU. In order to come into effect, any such changes must be ratified by each member state in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. In Ireland’s case, that may or may not require a referendum. Changes to EU treaties do not always need a referendum at present.

The second provides that the European Council has the power to amend the Treaties so as to allow Qualified Majority Voting to operate in certain areas where unanimity is now required or to apply the Ordinary Legislative Procedure in certain areas where a Special Legislative Procedure applies at present. Any such proposal must be agreed unanimously by the European Council so any member state may veto a proposed change. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, any national parliament may prevent these changes coming into effect. Under the proposed amendment to the Constitution of Ireland, the approval of the Dáil and Seanad will be required for Ireland to agree to such proposed changes. Such changes may or may not require a referendum in Ireland. Not all changes to EU treaties need a referendum at present.
Source (http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_faq.html).

The odds of No vote (50% or less) are 8/1 with Paddy Power. Put 100 Euro on you get 900 back! Tempting!

http://www.paddypower.ie/bet/other-politics/lisbon-treaty-referendum?ev_oc_grp_ids=111802

^^ I have also seen that. The odds of Yes (60-65%) are 5/4.

I would like to be that optimistic...

1/25 - http://www.paddypower.ie/bet/other-politics/lisbon-treaty-referendum?ev_oc_grp_ids=113552

Off to vote this evening. I['m voting yes, but it's a pity it'll prob be the last time we get to vote on European issues because Lisbon will be self-ammending.

Funny poster I found on the net.



http://i36.tinypic.com/259wylt.jpg


Brings back memories of a toliet in a fancy pub in central Rome I was in back in 2005. Major shock when I got down to the toilet to discover a whole in the ground :shocked:. Unfortunately, the person who had used it before me wasn't on target, and left a brown present on the toilet floor.
Gross, :puke:
is this real or photoshopped?

^^^

It's not an official campaign poster if that's what you mean...

I suspect this will be very close. Young Fine Gael released an Exit Poll tonight (no doubt from the middle class areas alot of them tend to inhabit) which initially showed 60% - 40% for the treaty. But it was botched. The true figure, as reported by the Irish Times, is 52% - 48% for the treaty. Now if that is, as I suspect, not working class areas then this is going to be tighter then was thought.


A narrow "yes" vote is most likely.

^^^

It's not an official campaign poster if that's what you mean...
That's what I meant and I wouldn't have been surprised if it was.

Young Fine Gael released an Exit Poll tonight (no doubt from the middle class areas alot of them tend to inhabit) which initially showed 60% - 40% for the treaty. But it was botched. The true figure, as reported by the Irish Times, is 52% - 48% for the treaty.
I don't get you.

This is IT:
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq195/Giedrius_LT/fg1.jpg

This is RTE:
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq195/Giedrius_LT/rte1.jpg

IT has a result of 52/48 and then they have changed it to 60/40, not vice versa. RTE has 60/40 from the very beginning.

Updates thus far :)



Live - Lisbon Referendum Count
Saturday, 03 October, 2009

(1.46pm) Minister for Health Mary Harney said the scale of the Yes vote is remarkable. She said the vote will play a part in the economic recovery.

(1.43pm) Voters in Dublin West have voted Yes by 68.5% to 31.5%.

(1.40pm) Two more Yes votes in Cavan-Monaghan (62:38) and Kerry North (64:36). Both voted No in 2008.

(1.37pm) European Commission President José Manuel Barroso says the result 'shows the value of European solidarity'.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage, who called for a No vote, compared the referendum to a corrupt election in Zimbabwe or Afghanistan.

(1.35pm) With nine constituencies in, the overall picture is 64.8% Yes and 35.2% No.

(1.34pm) Voters in Sligo-North Leitrim have approved the treaty by 64.45% to No 35.55%.

(1.33pm) Click here for details on the results as they emerge.

(1.32pm) Cork South Central has voted in favour of the treaty by 66.85% to 33.15%.

(1.30pm) Dublin Mid-West has voted Yes by 61.49% to 38.51%.

(1.29pm) Check our latest video clips here

(1.27pm) There has been a strong Yes vote in Waterford.

A total of 68.53% (30,744) voted Yes and 31.47% (14,116) voted No. There was a 22.85% swing to the Yes side.

Minister Martin Cullen said he was delighted with what was a very good result for the country and for Europe.

(1.23pm) Donegal South West has voted No.

The margin of victory was just 171 votes. 50.27% (15,794) voted against the treaty and 49.73% (15,623) voted in favour.

(1.20pm) Tipperary North has followed its neighbour in approving the treaty.

A total of 70.38% (25,768) voted Yes and 29.62% (10,846) voted No. It represented a swing of 20.58%. Turnout was 52%.

(1.17pm) IBEC Director General Danny McCoy said: 'The vote will lead to an EU that is better able to face the challenges ahead and reaffirms Ireland's long-standing, positive and constructive role in Europe. Today's decision is good for Ireland and good for Europe.'

(1.15pm) Labour leader Eamon Gilmore has said no-one in the Yes camp had contemplated such a large margin.

(1.13pm) In Donegal South West there could be as little as 200 votes between the No and the Yes sides.

(1.10pm) Donegal North East has rejected the Lisbon Treaty. 51.46% (15,005) voted No and 48.54% (14,156) voted Yes. There was a swing to the Yes side of 13.24%.

(1.03pm) Click here for details on the results as they emerge.

(1.01pm) Kildare North has recorded a Yes vote. A total of 76.19% (32,012) voted Yes and 23.81% (10,002) voted No.

The constituency voted Yes in 2008, but the margin increased by 21.57%.

(12:59pm) Campaign Director of Ireland for Europe Pat Cox said: 'This was a mature vote in which the Irish people rejected those voices telling them to make the referendum a verdict on the government and on national policies.'

Mr Cox was President of the European Parliament from 2002-2004.

(12.55pm) Dublin Central seems to have swung to a 61:39 Yes vote this year.

(12.53pm) The treaty looks set to be carried in Mayo, with tallies indicating a 62:38 vote for Yes, which is a reversal of 2008.

(12.45pm) Tipperary South is the first result in. 68.42% (22,712) voted Yes, while 31.58% (10,483) voted No. The change since 2008 is 21.63%. There were 184 spoiled votes.

(12.43pm) Only ten of the 43 constituencies voted in favour of Lisbon in 2008. However, this time there will be a majority in nearly every constituency.

(12.37pm) Donegal TD Niall Blaney has said the strong No vote in Donegal North East was disappointing, although there had been a significant shift to the Yes side.

(12.33pm) More good news for Taoiseach Brian Cowen is that the Yes vote has increased 16% in Laois-Offaly this year.

The Yes vote in Offaly, Mr Cowen's county, is 75.6%. The Yes vote in Laois is 66.87%.

(12.29pm) Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said: 'It is an important victory for Ireland and for all of Europe.'

Mr Bildt, whose country holds the EU presidency, said that it was just a matter of time until the union can 'finally can push the button for the better European cooperation that the Lisbon Treaty will give us'.

(12.27pm) Tallies indicate a 60:40 Yes vote in both Galway constituencies. All boxes have been opened.

(12.24pm) In Cork South West, all 140 boxes are open and a formal count is under way. Tallies indicate a 60:40 Yes vote.

(12.22pm) Socialist MEP Joe Higgins has said the Finance Minister is already rowing back on the promise that a Yes vote would mean jobs and economic recovery.

(12.18pm) Anti-Lisbon campaigner Richard Boyd Barrett said: 'I don't think it means a surge of support for the Government. I think the Government have a lot to live up to suggesting passing Lisbon would deliver jobs and economic recovery.'

(12.16pm) Several voters were hoping for divine intervention, as another two miraculous medals were found wrapped inside two ballot papers marked Yes from Ballyfin in Co Laois.

(12.12pm) In Louth, the constituency of Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern, the treaty is expected to be carried by 58:42. However, there was a strong No vote in urban, working class areas.

(12.10pm) RTÉ's Europe Editor Sean Whelan has said there will be an audible sigh of relief in Brussels, but there is a sense of anti-climax at Dublin Castle as the mass ranks of the media had expected a closer race.

(12.06pm) For more detailed information on tallies click here

(12.03pm) Labour Party leader Eamon Gilmore welcomed the 'sensible decision' of the Irish public.

(12pm) Tánaiste Mary Coughlan said: 'I would still be very cautious at this stage. It's very close to call. A lot more people changed their minds this time round. There was greater clarity and we had a very good Yes campaign here in Donegal South West.'

(11.58am) Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan said there was a 'national cohesion behind the Yes vote'.

He added: 'The Government is not engaged in any celebratory parties. We are in a very difficult place (economically) and that's precisely why people have voted Yes.'

(11.57am) Declan Ganley told Marian Finucane that Dick Roche had played a blinder in the campaign because he had stayed out of the public eye.

Mr Roche responded by saying that if RTÉ got out of Dublin 4, it would have found him out and about around the country.

(11.55am) David McCullagh reports that only Donegal North East looks like voting No. Turnout was 50%, but a official result is not expected until 2.30pm.

(11.52am) A miraculous medal and a driving licence turned up in boxes in Meath West, where early predictions are that a Yes vote will be carried.

(11.47am) Turnout was up 5% on last time in Limerick East. There is still a high No vote in working class areas of the city, where the No vote was as high as 70%.

(11.45am) Tallies indicate a strong Yes vote in South Roscommon, which is the home land of Minister Michael Finneran. Some boxes were as high as 90% Yes.

(11.43am) Former Danish MEP Jens Peter Bonde, who had campaigned for a No Vote, said: 'Friday 2 October 2009 will be seen as a sad day in European history.'

(11.41am) For more detailed information on tallies click here

(11.40am) Patricia McKenna of the People's Movement said: 'Today's result was inevitable. People voted not for the Lisbon Treaty but for economic recovery, jobs and EU membership.'

(11.38am) In Dublin North Central, tallys indicate that it will be 60:40 Yes, as opposed to 60:40 No last time.

(11.34am) Sinn Féin's Vice President Mary Lou McDonald told Marian Finucane that Fine Gael and Labour had helped to secure the Taoiseach in office for another three years.

(11.29am) All boxes are opened in Kerry North and tallies are indicating a 60:40 margin in favour of the Yes side. Turnout was 50%.

Sinn Féin TD for North Kerry Martin Ferris said the campaign run by Yes side put fear into voters and had a huge effect.

(11.27am) Declan Ganley has told Bryan Dobson that he will take time to reflect upon his political future.

He said he received a text message this morning from a Fine Gael 'operative' telling him to 'go quietly'.

(11.25am) Tallies from Dublin South West indicate a clear Yes vote with 60% of boxes open. The constituency had the highest No vote in 2008.

(11.20am) Declan Ganley said the country had 'made a mistake', but he paid tribute to the Taoiseach's 'excellent' campaign, which he said had made 'vassals' of the Opposition.

(11.17am) Minister for European Affairs Dick Roche said: 'I am confident it will be carried by close to two-to-one nationally. It is overwhelming.'

(11.14am) In Donegal North East, tallies suggest a big swing to the Yes side. The No vote was 64.7% in the first referendum.

(11.08am) Click on the RTÉ player on the top of this page for the first of RTÉ News' three Lisbon Specials.

(11.05am) Libertas leader Declan Ganley has said the result marks a 'very convincing win' for the Yes camp. He added: '

(10.58am) Early tallies in Dublin South West are indicating a Yes vote. The constituency had the highest No vote in 2008 with 65.1% opposing the treaty.

(10.52am) Fine Gael's Lucinda Creighton said there was a comfort in voting No in 2008 because of the fear created by anti-Lisbon campaigners.

(10.48am) The minister also found the time to praise Sean O'Rourke for his award for Best News Broadcaster at PPI Radio awards.

(10.45am) Micheál Martin has said the 'information deficit and knowledge gap' was a key reason Ireland voted No in 2008. However, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin rejected that.

(10.36am) Sinn Fein's Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin said there was no doubt that a lot of fear had been engendered as to the consequences of voting No.

(10.33am) RTÉ's David McCullagh said a No vote would have been 'absolutely catastrophic for the Government'.

(10.30am) Libertas leader Declan Ganley will make a statement at the RDS count centre at 11am.

(10.25) Socialist Party MEP Joe Higgins said that if the treaty is passed it will make it 1-1 and he joked that 'there should be a replay'.

(10.23am) Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin has said it looks like it will be a Yes vote and that this will be good for Ireland.

He said: 'I am delighted for the country. It looks like a convincing win for the 'Yes' side on this occasion.'

(10.20am) The tradition of spoiling votes is still strong, with one voter in Tipperary South asking 'what part of no do you not understand?'

(10.18am) Anti-Lisbon campaigner Richard Greene of Cóir has conceded that if tallies from around the country are accurate the treaty will be carried.

(10.15am) 90% of boxes have been opened in Dublin South. It had a Yes vote of 62.9% last time out.

(10.10am) In Dún Laoghaire, which had the highest Yes vote in 2008, 17% of boxes have been opened.

(10am) There are early tallies in for 22 of the 43 constituencies, but as Sean O'Rourke has said on RTÉ Radio One 'tallies are incomplete and unscientific'.

(9.57am) 20% of boxes have been opened in the key constituencies of Donegal South West and Donegal North East.

(9.52am) RTÉ's Political Correspondent David McCullagh is reporting that early indications from count centres around the country suggest that the Lisbon Treaty will be carried.

(9.50am) Up to 30% of the boxes have been opened in Clare and a result is expected there at 1pm. 5% of boxes have been opened in Dublin North East and 3% in Dublin North West.

(9.45am) 3% of boxes have been opened in Waterford. A result is expected at 12.30pm.

(9.35am) An early tally received from Carlow-Kilkenny is indicating a strong Yes vote. 15% of boxes have been opened.

(9am) The count is on. Remember, RTÉ Radio coverage begins at 10am. RTÉ News's first Lisbon Special starts at 11am.

(8.40am) Just 20 minutes to go until the counting of votes gets under way.

(8.30am) When polling closed last night the indications were that the turnout was slightly up on the first Lisbon referendum.

Fine Gael says an exit poll that it carried out shows there has been strong support for the Lisbon Treaty this time out.

(8am) Welcome to our live text commentary on a day which will decide if Ireland has voted for the Lisbon Treaty, or rejected it for a second time.

A very strong "Yes" vote by the look of things. Congratulations to the "Yes" campaign.





Im happy with the (soon to be announced) result. They fought a much more credible campaign. As for the mixture of lunatics on the "no" side - got what they deserved. Next time don't use blatant scare mongering nonsense in a campaign.



Official result will be announced before 5pm this evening Irish time.:banana::cheers:


I hope the Government don't take heart from this though - their day of reckoning is still coming.

THANK YOU IRELAND!!!!!! :grouphug::bow::cheers1::hug::dance::happy::grouphug:

I see UKIP have been poking their nose in with Farage being a cock :)

I see UKIP have been poking their nose in with Farage being a cock :)

I've just seen him on BBC News. What an idiot, always trying to stir things up.

You'd think he would support the treaty if anything as it is attempting to reform many of the things he has complaints about. Then again I suppose if Lisbon comes into force there is less of a 'market' for his party.

I see UKIP have been poking their nose in with Farage being a cock :)

You should have seen the leaflets their EU group sent to households here. Let's just call them "uncomfortable".


Every word they spoke was worth an incalcuable number of percentage points to the "yes" side. They came across as dishonest, right wing and just quite vile really.


I think the biggest loser was Declan Ganley and Libertas - the only ones I wouyld describe as not a bit loopy on the "no" side. Unfortunately for them they were swamped by the looney wing.

I literally LOLed when Farage was rebuked on RTE earlier. Was so deserved.

Farage is a repulsive person anyway, you can smell the bullshit before he opened his mouth.

Declan Ganley is a failed politian. I think he should fuck back of to Watford or wherever he belongs

Declan Ganley is a failed politian. I think he should fuck back of to Watford or wherever he belongs


He lives in Galway. He will probrably just disappear back into obscurity.