200km/h is a vast improvement from the current situation...

In the intercity area, double tracks with passing loops at the stations is more important than 250km/h. For the eventual real HSLs 250km/h would be in the lower range of what we should build.

Agree, it's just so much cheaper to build it together with E6 - so following common sense it would be ridiculous to delay this project further just to gain half a minute when/if a HSR is in operation.

OMFG! Anyone got a shotgun? Or a tank?

I'm simply getting tired of this!

Agree, it's just so much cheaper to build it together with E6 - so following common sense it would be ridiculous to delay this project further just to gain half a minute when/if a HSR is in operation.
This is not necessarily the fact. Norsk Bane made plans for the eastern route together with DB, and it was 1 BNOK cheaper than the E6 alternative and would allow 300 kph. Full details: http://norskbane.no/default.aspx?menu=4&id=173

This is even more ridiculous when we know that the government is using 240 MNOK on a bridge because of an owl. Here they can save money, get a better track, and not build right along Mjøsa and destroy the environment. I seldom identify with environmentalists, but I really hope they get through this time: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117092004971137&v=info

Sverige nekter oss lyntog til Europa

Det blir ikke lyntog fra Oslo til København. Svenskene nekter norske lyntogutredere å planlegge toglinje for hastigheter over 250 kilometer i timen.
AVJOHN HULTGREN SVEINUNG BERG BENTZRØD

Her kommer det neppe til å gå noe lyntog
Det bekrefter leder av lyntogutredningen, Tom Stillesby. Han planlegger ulike alternativer for tog mellom norske byer, med hastigheter opp til 330 kilometer i timen.

I mandatet fra Samferdselsdepartementet står det også klart at utredningen skal omfatte høyhastighetstog til Stockholm og til Göteborg. For norske politikere har tanken vært at linjen til Göteborg skulle utgjøre første del av en lyntogrute fra Oslo til København, og dermed resten av Europa.
Men slik blir det ikke.

I Sverige er det ikke interesse for lyntog på disse strekningene. I stedet for å bygge spor som tåler hastigheter opp til 330 kilometer i timen, vil svenskene begrense hastigheten på disse linjene til 250 kilometer i timen.

Taper for fly
Da vil reisetiden mellom Oslo og København bli for lang til at den kan vinne konkurransen om flypassasjerene, mener Stillesby.
- Når vi nå har en begrensning på 250 km/t i Sverige, så er det ikke mulig å nå København på tre timer. Det betyr at en langt lavere andel av passasjerene vil velge tog fremfor fly, sier han.

Tre timer er en magisk grense for lyntog. Erfaringer fra flere land i Europa viser at høyhastighetstog kaprer en svært stor del av markedet hvis reisetiden fra by til by er tre timer eller mindre. Det er trolig fordi reisetiden med fly - inkludert reise mellom bysentrum og flyplass, sikkerhetskontroll og så videre - i realiteten er rundt tre timer.

Med hastighetsbegrensningen i Sverige vil planleggerne nå legge opp til at toget kan kjøre i 330 kilometer i timen på norsk side, og 250 km/t på svensk side. Da vil reisetiden mellom Oslo og Göteborg være mellom to og to og én halv time.

Også reisetiden til Stockholm vil bli lengre. Også der legger planleggerne opp til 330 km/t på norsk side, men begrensning til 250 km/t på svensk side. Da vil ikke reisen ta to timer og 40 minutter, men tre timer og ti minutter. Den ruten vil derfor muligens likevel kunne kapre en del av markedet.

Lavere hastighet
De første signalene om svensk motvilje mot høyhastighetstog på disse linjene kom for ett år siden.
Da reiste Stillesby til generaldirektøren for Trafikverket i Sverige, Gunnar Malm, for å se om det var mulig å påvirke standpunktet. Malm ledet den svenske lyntogutredningen som i 2009 anbefalte å bygge lyntog mellom Stockholm-Malmø og Stockholm-Göteborg. Malm sitter også i ekspertpanelet for den norske høyhastighetsutredningen.

Malm lot seg ikke rikke, og etter det har Samferdselsdepartementet tatt saken opp med det svenske Næringsdepartementet som eier svenske jernbaner. For kort tid siden kom svaret.
- Vi fikk beskjed fra Samferdselsdepartementet om at vi ikke skal utrede for hastigheter over 250 kilometer i timen på svensk side av grensen. Strengt tatt betyr det at vi ikke kan oppfylle mandatet, sier Stillesby.
- Hva oppgir svenskene som årsak til dette?
- Det er veldig uklart. Det er ikke egentlig noen årsak. De har hatt sin utredning, og kommet med sin innstilling om hvor det skal bygges høyhastighetstog i Sverige. Det er ikke mer enn det, sier Stillesby.
Aftenpostens henvendelse til pressesjefen for generaldirektør Gunnar Malm i det svenske Trafikverket, er ikke blitt besvart.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4134210.ece

What the fuck, Sweden?? :bash:

200km/h is a vast improvement from the current situation...

In the intercity area, double tracks with passing loops at the stations is more important than 250km/h. For the eventual real HSLs 250km/h would be in the lower range of what we should build.
200 km/h is indeed high speed compared with the 60-100 km/h track currently under construction in Stjørdal....
http://www.bladet.no/nyheter/article4050279.ece

I'm guessing the Swedes want the first Norwegian-built high speed line to go to Stockholm, rather than Copenhagen.

Great for us then, 80km for us to build and 400km for them :)

The contures of a Norwegian HSR are being established:

Norsk modell for høyhastighet


30.05.2011 Høyhastighetsutredningen jobber med et utgangspunkt for hvordan vi i Norge tenker oss at et mulig høyhastighetsnettverk kan se ut i fremtiden. Det innebærer dobbeltspor, mange stasjoner og godstog på dagtid.


-Da vi samlet alle medlemmene av ekspertpanelet vårt i september i fjor fikk vi et veldig godt råd om hvordan vi burde gå frem, sier prosjektleder for den norske høyhastighetsutredningen, Tom Stillesby. Direktør i den internasjonale jernbaneunionen (UIC), Ignacio Barron de Angoiti, sa at det er viktig at Norge finner sin egen modell for høyhastighetsbaner. Vi må ikke prøve å etterligne andre land, men finne ut hva som er viktig for oss:

- Høyhastighetsbaner er et system som må tilpasses hvert enkelt land. Dere må definere om dere vil prioritere pris, service, hurtighet, hyppige avganger eller andre elementer, og dermed finne deres egen modell, sa Ignacio Barron de Angoiti.

Selv er Stillesby glad i den franske definisjonen av høyhastighetsbaner: ”Det er ikke et tog, det er et nytt transport-system.”

Alle må med
Selv om vi er langt unna en konklusjon begynner vi å ane konturene av hva som kan bli en norsk løsning. Distriktspolitiske hensyn er viktig i Norge, ikke minst innen samferdselssektoren. Det betyr at vi vil forsøke å binde regionene sammen. Det blir ikke aktuelt med et høyhastighetstog som bare kjører fra sted til sted uten å stoppe. Selv om det er blant flypassasjerene det største markedet er, må toget også kunne stoppe underveis. En løsning kan være å bygge mange stasjoner, men la togene stoppe på forskjellige steder. For eksempel kan et tog kjøre nesten uten stopp mens et tog annet stopper på mange stasjoner.

Godstrafikk
Vi tar utgangspunkt i at det skal bygges dobbeltspor hele veien. Det er fordi vi også ønsker å kunne tilrettelegge for godstrafikk. Selv om det ikke er vanlig i resten av Europa skal vi se om det er mulig å få til i Norge. Noe av grunnen til at det ikke gjøres i Europa er at de har stort nok passasjergrunnlag til å bare frakte passasjerer. I Norge er situasjonen annerledes. Prosjektleder for Høyhastighetsutredningen, Tom Stillesby, mener den samfunnsøkonomiske verdien av gods vil bety en god del:

–.Godstransport vil være en viktig faktor for å få økonomi inn i prosjektene, sier Stillesby. Han sier det i tillegg vil avlaste veiene for godstransport slik at høyhastighetstoget også vil gi en miljø- og sikkerhetsgevinst.
Med dobbeltspor kan man kjøre fire tog i timen, for eksempel to høyhastighetsavganger, en InterCity-avgang og et godstog.
http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Norsk-modell-for-hoyhastighet/

I agree that norway must find its own preferred system. I think it is a good idea for Norway to incorporate the old slo-mo track into the HSR as much as possible. Using the old track for some local trafic that could join the HRS "highway" nonstop on the final leg to the destination destination, alternatively change to HSR at interchangeable stations.

The plan prosess for a Brynsdiagonal will commense this year

Tthis has been revealed through the Follobane project. Brynsdiagonalen is an old project that will be very important for increased capacity for goods traffic on rails between Norway/Oslo and the continent, especially the harbor in Gothenburg. It will also releif Oslo borough Gamle Oslo from a lot of heavy through traffic. Finally, some train operating companies have expressed the possibility to run direct trains from Follo to Gardermoen airport.

Hopefully, the plan prosess may be swift and efficient, so that the politicians can follow up with funding, so again construction of this line may happen simultainously with the Follobane project.

I agree that norway must find its own preferred system. I think it is a good idea for Norway to incorporate the old slo-mo track into the HSR as much as possible. Using the old track for some local trafic that could join the HRS "highway" nonstop on the final leg to the destination destination, alternatively change to HSR at interchangeable stations.

I agree with this.

In reality, I don't think we need more than 7 stops between Oslo and Trondheim. OSL, Eidsvoll, Hamar, Lillehammer, Otta, Åndalsnes, Oppdal.

The thing is, once the direct express trains are taken off the old single-track line, it will actually be possible to increase the number of stops, because there won't be any conflict between local and direct trains. (This is the reason why the central tunnel in Oslo can be double track, while Lysaker-Drammen has to be 4 tracks.)

So we could potentially re-open a lot of old stops and allow for development around them. Then as you say Hurban, people could take the local train to an HSR hub, and change there.

I sure hope that we will see a direct-line Rygge - Sarpsborg or a new Glomma station. But keep the old line for local transportation with some new stops.

I agree with this.

In reality, I don't think we need more than 7 stops between Oslo and Trondheim. OSL, Eidsvoll, Hamar, Lillehammer, Otta, Åndalsnes, Oppdal.

I really don't hope a future HSR between Trondheim and Oslo will stop at Åndalsnes :tongue2:

Neither Lillehammer, Otta, Oppdal - but rather Tynset :)

What makes us so certain a new HSR will follow the valleys? Aren't they filled up with infrastructure already?:?

Østerdalen filled up? Not exactly. Gudbrandsdalen is more of a difficult terrain and fitting in a new E6 alone was not easy...

I really don't hope a future HSR between Trondheim and Oslo will stop at Åndalsnes :tongue2:

Whoops, I meant Dombås of course. :tongue2:

One possibility is a tunnel under the mountains into Østerdalen after Lillehammer. It would be long, but not much longer than the planned tunnel from Sandvika to Hønefoss.

Lol, the people that inspired my signature are at it again with their propaganda:

«En av de mest attraktive regionene i hele verden» (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4147748.ece)

Not that I don't support this line, though:)

Tomorrow I will visit Jernbaneverkets open seminar on the Norwegian high speed rail study ("høyhastigetsutredningen"). There will be the latest presentations on what the planning consultancies have done so far, and their thoughts on the following possible high speed rail alignments:

RAMBØLL: Oslo - Trondheim
SWECO: Oslo - Bergen (Hardangervidda Hallingdal/Numedal)
" : Oslo - Haugesund - Stavanger - Bergen (Haukeli)
MULTICONSULT: Oslo - Kristiansand - Stavanger
NORCONSULT: Oslo - Stockholm
" : Oslo - Gøteborg

I will give an update here if they come with any interesting news!

^^

Good plan. I'll be paying attention :)

Will be quite interesting to hear what they are thinking...

Haha, I hadn't seen NSB's website for the FLIRT-trains yet. Check out www.nyetog.no Believe me when I say the Flash-intro is worth the visit!:lol:

Fancy intro!

I noticed that specs given on NSB site differed slightly from specs from Stadler factsheet (most prominent difference was train weight - NSB mentions it nearly 6 tons heavier!) Tbh,I had been wondering for some time,why NSB Flirts were considered different from usual Flirt trains (apart from obvious different nose design and being more powerful) and I just noticed that Norwegian trains have lot higher low floor section (760mm,as opposed to usual 550mm used in other Flirt trains)

I belive 760mm is the new EU standard. In fact, a lot of (if not most) norwegian stations have to raise the height of the platforms to accomodate for this.

But what's the reason for choosing platform height of 760mm over 550mm,when upgrading ? Both 760mm and 550mm are described in EU railway standardization specifications,but 550mm is getting more common in these days.

Btw,to illustrate it,set heights for new station plaforms in Europe:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Map_Europe_railway_platform_height.svg/500px-Map_Europe_railway_platform_height.svg.png
green - 550mm
purple - 760mm
yellow - 550mm & 760mm
dark grey - other specifications

^^The reason they go for 760 mm is that most of the current trains have so high floors. 1300 mm is the standard floor hieght, and only two have stairs that start below 760 mm (they have the first step at 650 mm, but this is the exception.) But eitherway, this was decided last time they bought trains, not now...


Fancy intro!

I noticed that specs given on NSB site differed slightly from specs from Stadler factsheet (most prominent difference was train weight - NSB mentions it nearly 6 tons heavier!) Tbh,I had been wondering for some time,why NSB Flirts were considered different from usual Flirt trains (apart from obvious different nose design and being more powerful) and I just noticed that Norwegian trains have lot higher low floor section (760mm,as opposed to usual 550mm used in other Flirt trains)

All Norwegian trains have snow plows on them. With the reinforcement of the structure, maybe this is the reason for the added weight... (or some of it)

NSB type 73

Before:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/61176Togx46x071005x2wsxTrondheim.jpg

After:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/_SCC-AIPub_A-l_pet_1499673x.jpg

Copyrights Aftenposten and Jernbane.net

I prefered it before the re-design.

I prefered it before the re-design.

:lol:

And now they know why that No Smoking sign is there...

Tomorrow I will visit Jernbaneverkets open seminar on the Norwegian high speed rail study ("høyhastigetsutredningen"). There will be the latest presentations on what the planning consultancies have done so far, and their thoughts on the following possible high speed rail alignments:

RAMBØLL: Oslo - Trondheim
SWECO: Oslo - Bergen (Hardangervidda Hallingdal/Numedal)
" : Oslo - Haugesund - Stavanger - Bergen (Haukeli)
MULTICONSULT: Oslo - Kristiansand - Stavanger
NORCONSULT: Oslo - Stockholm
" : Oslo - Gøteborg

I will give an update here if they come with any interesting news!

I went to the seminar and there was a lot of interesting information. Here is an extract of the more interesting stuff that I can remember:

-Costs have not yet been calculated, neither has the economics behind each route or the passenger estimates. All information so far are preliminary thoughts and stipulations and no conclusions have been made. The final report will be presented spring 2012.

-They are planning for either a super high speed network with speeds of 330kmt, either for passengers only, or a combination with freight/cargo trains. A third option is planning for high speed of 250kmt on new tracks, or in a combination with existing tracks were possible (and as such reducing the speed even more)

-Østerdalen is both the cheapest and fastest route between Oslo and Trondheim. It could have a relative small share of tunnels ("only around 30% if I remember right, compared to 50% for other alternatives). The two other routes that are being studied is via Gudbrandsdalen and a cross route via Rondane. All trains to Trondheim are to stop at Gardermoen. It was mentioned a possible new station in the middle between Elverum and Hamar for the Østerdalen-route, as it would be difficult to retain the old stations and still plan for super high speed (330kmt)

-The rail alignment for superhighspeed 330kmt Oslo-Bergen is a difficult task because of the vertical steepness, especially difficult is a station at Voss, which would possibly have to be relocated to a new location 280meters above sea level. Only so can steepness be kept below 1,2 % (maximum allowed for freight trains). There are numerous routes being studied, and no evidence of a preferred alternative so far. Trains could run through Numedalen or across Haukelifjell (with a possible arm towards Stavanger) among others.

-As far as I understood it, a rail line between Bergen and Stavanger is stipulated to be difficult to build, and a desirable station at Leirvik (Stord) is very hard to fit into the profject because of the deep fjords around the island. I kind of got an idea that a rail line between Bergen and Stavanger will become extremely expensive with long and deep tunnels and probably not very realistic (but this was not mentioned).

-High speed rail line between Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger will most likely run direct between Drammen and Porsgrunn (to make 330kmh). From Porsgrunn to Kr-Sand the rail line is kept close to E18, but between Kr.Sand and EGersund, two alternatives are made, one running along the coast, while the other would use the existing tunnels more inland (doubling them). All trains are to stop at Kr.sand and Egersund. A new station in Kr.sand could be located next to the hospital, to allow for two way traffic.

-High speed rail Oslo-Stockholm 330kmt could possibly be routed Lillestrøm-Bjørkelangen-Ørebro direct, or from the new folltunnel, diverting directly north of Ski towards Ørje, aligned on the north side of Askim and Myse (without stations; direct to Sweden)

-A possible high speed rail line to Gothenburg with 330kmt is possible, also by diverting from the future follo tunnel north of Ski, and following a straight line all the way to Sarpsborg. Then a new line could be built from Sarpsborg to the swedish border as well.

^^Thanks for the sums up! I ment to be there, but got hold up with work. True that the final document won't be ready until next year. To be fitted into NTP 2014-2023, it has to be delivered in January, as NTP shall be on hearing from February of.

Edit: This shows NTP 2014-23's time schedule. Just as relevant here as in any other infrastructure-thread, I guess...
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/ntp_prosjektprogram_apr_2011.jpg

(The headline would look so much better if it said "Trafikkverkets planforslag" instead of that Sildesalat of different companies with the same goal....)

^^Thanks for the sums up! I ment to be there, but got hold up with work. True that the final document won't be ready until next year. To be fitted into NTP 2014-2023, it has to be delivered in January, as NTP shall be on hearing from February of.

Edit: This shows NTP 2014-23's time schedule. Just as relevant here as in any other infrastructure-thread, I guess...


If I dont remember wrong, høyhastighetsutredningen will not be ready until March 2012. But I am sure it wont be part of the next NTP, they wont start constructing any high speed rail lines for years. But hopefully they will put money into a more detailed study of at least one of the high speed rail routes... (the one(s) that appear the most feasible)

No more studies, please! We need building. A so-called long-distance train from Oslo to Bergen takes 7h 20m (there are even slower night trains), and distance 526,64 km. In other words, average speed is ~72 km/h. HSR is not a fantasy project, it is a lifesaver for a whole mean of transport.
I vote for straight to KU as soon as NTP is done. Stortinget voted unanimously (except Frp) for HSR, and HSR we shall have!

When they say 250 km/h or 330 km/h, are they talking about top speed or attempted average including stops?

^^The first one:)

^^Are you sure? Sounds doubtful..

Don't know what you are talking about.

When they say 250 km/h or 330 km/h, are they talking about top speed or attempted average including stops?

It is the top speed, although the routes are planned (in the høyhastighetsutredningen study) so that the train can keep 330kmh for as long time as possible.

It was mentioned at the conference that trains "may not be able to keep a speed of 330kmh through long tunnels, the speed will slow down to 250kmh...." This is a major issue, given that some of the routes will consist of 50% tunnels.....

I think it is a controversial statement; I am sure some of the asian high speed trains are able to keep speeds above 300kmh within long tunnels... But they are comparing with the technology of Germany and its ICE high speed trains in the study. I think it is a mistake, cause in Germany they dont have the need to build many long tunnels...

What is the logic in the trains having to go slower in tunnels? To me it seems like going fast in tunnels should be safer than out in the open..

What is the logic in the trains having to go slower in tunnels? To me it seems like going fast in tunnels should be safer than out in the open..

The problem is not about safety, but air pressure; the trains are appearently slowed down by the air in the tunnel (cause the air has nowhere to flea when tre train pass, and consequently come "in the way" and pushes the train). Trains will need stronger/larger motor capacity, like they have in some asian high speed trains, I have heard.

Råde stasjon oppgraderes ute og inne. Link: http://www.moss-avis.no/nyheter/rade-stasjon-oppgraderes-ute-og-inne-1.6321537

The new railroad map for northern Scandinavia?

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/NNJ.jpg

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=80219382&postcount=28

All the 3 projects towards Tromsø was deemed "not profitable", once again. No shock there.

Though nordlandsbanen and ofotbanen will get upgrades.

^^Northern-Norway as a whole is "non-profitable". But when we're utilizing this part of the country, I don't see why we won't build proper infrastructure up there as well. At least railroad is a government spending that will give somthing back to the communities.

Well, not really. The reason being the large amount of raw materials. (oil, gas, fish, mining materials, meat etc) Not doubt there is enough to support the railway with industry (obviously not with passenger traffic alone). Just look at Nordland, their railways need to be expanded now.

The point in their statement is that it is cheaper to expand the roads to a good standard, rather then building a 50-60 billion railway. Well, duh.. It is an investment. Though personally, I'm not saying I DON'T want it, just that I'd rather take those 50 billions in properly upgrading the roads to a high standard. Not like we'll see any of that anyway.

Meanwhile in China...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8600749/China-to-open-Beijing-Shanghai-high-speed-rail-link.html

1319 km railway built in 3 years, top speed 300 km/h.

Almost 5 hours isn't really good enough to compete with airplanes. They should have made it faster than 300 km/h.

Almost 5 hours isn't really good enough to compete with airplanes. They should have made it faster than 300 km/h.

http://i.imgur.com/yRWbu.jpg

What? Tons of people will still prefer travelling between the cities by plane, the way it is now.

not when you take security checks, airport waiting and other shit in the equation

Isn't "3 hours" said to be the "holy number"? Unless a HSR can get you from A to B in 3 hours or less, many will still prefer taking a plane.

I can understand why people with no time to waste would still prefer flying between Beijing and Shanghai.

In case of planes you also have to add the time it takes to get to the airport in the first place and many cases you have to take the train/buss out to get there. This progress must of course be reversed when you land at the airport closest to your destination too. Train stations however are usually placed in densely built up areas where people live.

^^Yeah, but everyone doesn't live around Oslo S, either:)

(with the exception of me....)

No, fair enough, however if you want to take a plane then the changes are that you have to start your travel at Oslo S to get out to the airport either way.
;)

^^No, and that's also part of why many oppose HSR. In rushhour bus from south of Oslo to Gardermoen isn't much slower than a bus from south of Oslo to Jernbanetorget.

^^ But many places don't have any buses going to Gardemoen. These have to start their travel at Oslo S or another train station. And my point was that you have to add the travel to the airport (whether by train, busses etc.) as part of the overall time spent traveling when you take a plane.

The advantage with trains is that you can work on your laptop on the entire trip. You don't have so much time for that when flying.

Kinesere vil bygge lyntog i Norge (http://www.dn.no/forsiden/politikkSamfunn/article2182348.ece)

I've tried to put together an overview of the bigger railway projects under construction and under planning.

Bærumstunnelen between Sandvika - Lysaker. To open this fall
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Brumstunnelen.jpg

Vestfoldbanen. Barkåker - Tønsberg to open this fall.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Vestfoldbanen.jpg

Follobanen
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Follobanen.jpg

Double track through Moss
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Moss.jpg

Double track Bergen - Arna
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Flyen.jpg

Grevingåsen tunnel. To open this fall
140km/h
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Grevingsen.jpg

Dovrebanen Eidsvoll - Hamar
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Dovrebanen.jpg

Gevingåsen is max 140km/h.

Watch the first train go through the Gevingåsen tunnell:

http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/nordtrondelag/article1677799.ece

NSB will have a show-and-tell with the new trains at Oslo S the day of "Åpen dag i Bjørvika 2011". This is their program for the day:

Åpen dag i Bjørvika 28. august

Ta med barna på Åpen dag i Bjørvika søndag 28. august. Dere kan se det nye toget vårt, det blir underholdning og aktiviteter for barna.


Program

12.00 Stian Barsnes Simonsen ønsker velkommen
12.10 Miljøagentene intervjuer en NSB ansatt
12.15 Togmaleriet lanseres fra scenen og malingen starter
12.20 Toget og aktivitetene åpnes
12.30 Lotta
12.40 Rap/Hiphop gruppen KeSera
12.50 Alejandro Fuentes
15.00 Slutt

Vi tar forbehold om endringer i programmet

No fire truck?

You'll have to do with the one outside the opera. Both chu-chu-train and what-the-firetruck at one day may be dangerous to your health, though.

Finse for høyt for lyntog
Både Finse og Myrdal stasjon ligger for høyt over havet til at fremtidens høyhastighetstog kan nå dit.

Derfor er trasseen gjennom Numedal til Geilo, og deretter til Voss, mer sannsynlig. Dette fortalte lederen for regjeringens høyhastighetsutredning Tom Stillesby i Stortinget tirsdag formiddag.

- Alternativet hadde vært en tunnel under nesten hele Hardangervidda. Årsaken til at vi ikke når opp til Finse på 1200 meter over havet, er de europeiske kravene til jernbanebygging. Det heter at stigningen skal være maks 12 promille. Med det som utgangspunkt er det ikke mulig å nå opp til verken Myrdal eller Finse, forklarte Stillesby på et togseminar SV arrangerte.

Flere vil reise
Han fortalte også at ferske beregninger viser at godstrafikken på en høyhastighetsbane ikke vil utvikle seg så positivt som man hadde håpet. Markedsundersøkelser som utvalget har fått utført, tyder på at godstransportørene kvier seg for å satse på toget i fremtiden, selv om reisetiden mellom de største byene halveres. Årsaken er at operatørene ikke stoler på punktligheten ved jernbanen, ut fra negative erfaringer over lang tid.

Men sjefsutreder Stillesby hadde også helt ferske tall som viser at folk gjerne vil bruke toget, dersom de kommer seg mellom storbyene på tre timer.

De nyeste oppjusteringene på Oslo-Bergen tilsier 4,35 millioner reisende pr./pr. år, mens tallene fra i vår var 3,0 millioner. Dette er beregninger for år 2024, når høyhastighetstoget kan være i drift.

Den mest lønnsomme trassen mellom Oslo og Bergen vil likevel gå gjennom Telemark over Haukeli. Da kobler man seg på Haugesund og Stavanger. En slik bane vil langt på vei kunne drives lønnsomt basert på befolkningstettheten i ved de største stasjonene.

- Dystert Bergen-Stavanger
Den såkalte Vestlandsbanen, mellom Bergen og Stavanger over Stord, fremstår ikke som særlig attraktiv ifølge utredningen så langt. Godt under en million passasjerer, ned mot 970 000, er det beste de kan håpe på over denne strekningen, mener Stillesby. Og da legges banen utenom Os, der det kunne vært noen sjeler å hente.

Arbeidet med høyfartstog i Norge, som samferdselsdepartementet har bestilt etter pålegg fra Stortinget, skal være ferdig 1. februar neste år. Rapporten sendes da ut på høring, og regjeringen legger frem en stortingsmelding i god tid før valget i 2013.

Utredningsarbeidet går nå mot slutten, og utvalget starter skrivingen av sin rapport den 1. november, opplyste Tom Stillesby på hurtigtogseminaret. Der ble også miljøkonsekvenser og samfunnsøkonomiske konsekvenser av høyfartstog i Norge vurdert.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/valg/Finse-for-hyt-for-lyntog-2561061.html

A HSL is not meant for tourists wanting to view the norwegian mountains from the train windows anyway...

This comes as no surprise. High speed trains would loose a lot of speed if ithey had to travel steep inclines. A combined Oslo- Bergen/Stavanger via Haukeli route seems more and more like a very feasible project!

Bærumstunnellen is supposed to open next friday. Does anyone know if/when the train-schedules will be changed because of that?

^^I have tried to follow NSBs tabels because of that, but it doesn't seem like they're doing anything now. My guess is they won't change them until the ordinary schedule change in December. By then, they should've run through the new tunnel for a while, and are more comfortable knowing how much time they need.

Sp sier nei til Stavanger-lyntog
Kritiske til planer om Intercitytog mellom Bergen og Stavanger.
http://mediahash2.bt.no/incoming/article2562166.ece/ALTERNATES/w980c169/tog.jpg

Bergen næringsråd og Business region Bergen har bestilt en rapport om såkalt IC-forbindelse mellom de to største byene på Vestlandet. Til en pris på 65 milliarder kroner vil man få reisetiden ned mot én time, og drømmen er avganger hvert 20 minutt.

Leder i Hordaland Sp, Steinulf Tungesvik, mener planene ikke er mer enn det: drømmerier.

- Denne utgreiingen av strekningen Bergen-Stavanger går via alle øyer og under alle fjorder. At den er stigningsmessig helt umulig å gjennomføre, er mindre problematisk. Den svarer derimot ikke på det statens utredning om lyntog handler om, nemlig konkurranse om strekninger med trafikkpotensial, sier Tungesvik, som også er styremedlem i Norsk Bane AS.

Uslåelige tall
Strekningen Bergen-Stord-Haugesund-Stavanger synes han i og for seg er interessant.

- Men Oslotrafikken må kobles på. I en slik trekant vil trafikktallet være uslåelig i Norge.

Tungesvik sier han har støtte for dette fra Stavangerregionen og hele Hordaland.

- Med med denne utredningen skriver bergensk næringsliv og politikerne seg vekk fra en mulig allianse på Vestlandet.

Ikke for sent
Bergen og Vestlandet må komme på banen i forhold til hurtigtog nå, dersom det skal skje noe på denne siden av landet, mener han. Da gjelder det for Tungesvik å rope opp om et jernbanenett som går kobler vest og øst, samtidig som man har en intern kobling mellom Vestlandet.

- Stillesby (leder for utvalget som skal utrede hurtigtog i Norge, red.anm) har vært på besøk i samtlige fylker og i mange kommuner. Der er i sør engasjementet for lyntog er størst, det er lavest i Bergen. I vest er jernbaneforumet mest opptatt av å få rustet opp dagens linje.

Å ruste opp Bergensbanen er helt på sin plass, konkluderer Tungesvik.

- Den skal leve videre med sine formål, men den blir aldri hurtigtoget.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/Sp-sier-nei-til-Stavanger-lyntog-2562157.html

I know who won´t be getting my vote.. :)

A bit confused about what he really saying but.. They wont get my vote either...

It's a stupid idea to build at the shortest "airline" distance between Stavanger and Bergen, when it will be many times as expensive as an inland option connecting to Haukeli, and not save more than 20-30 mins considering climbing/descending speeds. The geography makes it an unnatural alternative, and all the tunnel drilling technology in the world can't change this.
The most important thing to focus on for a vestlands HSR, is getting Flesland airport and Haugesund as stations, then get corresponding times at Røldal (or where the meeting point will be) as low as possible. Train will still be so much more efficient than cars or planes.

I think a coastal line seems great, that way we also cover Haugesund and Stord. I agree that Flesland needs a proper rail-connection, as well.

Tester lover godt for nye tog (http://www.bygg.no/2011/08/tester-lover-godt-for-nye-tog)
"Familier og togentusiaster strømmet til Oslo S søndag, da NSB viste fram ett av 50 nye togsett som skal inn i trafikk til våren."

Did anyone from here go?

Of course we did! And I'll be adding some pictures soon.

Here they are:)

This particular train is to be used on the intercity route between Skien/Larvik and Lillehammer
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/Oslo/NSBBM7410401liten.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/Oslo/Bjrvika006.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/Oslo/Bjrvika007.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/Oslo/Bjrvika041.jpg

Drivers cabin
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/Oslo/Bjrvika009.jpg

Thanks! :cheers:

Sweet! Would love for there to be private railways in Norway. We need more variation in our train stock.

Here is a video from the new tunnel between Lysaker and Sandvika:

http://www.budstikka.no/nyheter/na-gar-det-i-160-km-t-mellom-sandvika-og-lysaker-1.6451013

^^I have tried to follow NSBs tabels because of that, but it doesn't seem like they're doing anything now. My guess is they won't change them until the ordinary schedule change in December. By then, they should've run through the new tunnel for a while, and are more comfortable knowing how much time they need.

Jernbaneverket explains:

For å ikke havne foran ruta glir toget denne morgenen gjennom tunnelen i 60 km/t, selv om den nye strekningen nå er åpnet for inntil 160. Fordi tidspunktene for ruteskifter er fastsatt gjennom internasjonale avtaler, kan ikke reisetidsgevinsten fra de nye sporene legges inn i rutene før ved neste ruteendring, som er 11. desember.

I love the EU!:bash:

Jernbaneverket explains:

For å ikke havne foran ruta glir toget denne morgenen gjennom tunnelen i 60 km/t, selv om den nye strekningen nå er åpnet for inntil 160. Fordi tidspunktene for ruteskifter er fastsatt gjennom internasjonale avtaler, kan ikke reisetidsgevinsten fra de nye sporene legges inn i rutene før ved neste ruteendring, som er 11. desember.

I love the EU!:bash:

How is that even possible? Never heard of that agreement, and you guys ain't even signing anything from the EU?!

For å ikke havne foran ruta glir toget denne morgenen gjennom tunnelen i 60 km/t, selv om den nye strekningen nå er åpnet for inntil 160. Fordi tidspunktene for ruteskifter er fastsatt gjennom internasjonale avtaler, kan ikke reisetidsgevinsten fra de nye sporene legges inn i rutene før ved neste ruteendring, som er 11. desember.

(:madwife::bash::ohno:>(:doh::evil::?:down::gunz::eek::fiddle::skull::hammer::gaah::censored::mad::cry::wtf::wallbash:
:wallbash::drunk::shocked::crazy2::rant::tongue4::badnews::puke::storm::tongue3::weird::bleep::clown::crazy::cripes::no:)*10^100000000000000000000000000000

That made my day XD ^^

and you guys ain't even signing anything from the EU?!

We do through the EEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area).

Atleast they drive faster through the tunnel when they are delayed, as they often are :)

The 23,5 km long HSR-stretch Larvik - Porsgrunn is secured finances to start next fall, according to Minister of Transportation Magnhild Meltveit Kleppa in a press conference today. Desperate to win some late votes, it was guaranteed that 100 mio crowns in start up funds is already in place in next year's budget.

Read more on Jernbaneverket's site: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Byggestart-Larvik---Porsgrunn-neste-ar/

Planning of Follobanen is moving forward... (http://www.bygg.no/2011/09/gedigen-kontrakt-paa-follobanen)

- Bergensbanen er et blindspor
- Bergens-politikerne mangler kunnskap og entusiasme for høyhastighetstog. Det er tragisk, sier Arild Hermstad, leder i Framtiden i våre hender (FIVH).

Framtiden i våre hender har laget en minirapport om utviklingen av et mer moderne, og ikke minst hurtigere jernbanetilbud mellom Bergen og Oslo.

Konklusjonen er at det vil være en veldig dårlig investering å bruke 60 milliarder kroner på å forbedre Bergensbanen slik at reisetiden blir redusert til fire timer.

Ved å øke investeringen fra 60 til 80 milliarder, er det derimot mulig å få plass en nybygd dobbeltsporet høyhastighetsbane med reisetid på 2,5 timer, ifølge FIVH.

- Kvasiløsning
- Den stadige henvisningen til fire timers reisetid på Bergensbanen, som mange av partiene har i sine programmer, er et blindspor som har stått i veien for en fremtidsrettet samferdselspolitikk i altfor mange år, hevder Arild Hermstad, som selv er utflyttet bergenser og togentusiast på sin hals.

Han omtaler fire timers-alternativet som en kvasiløsning.

Organisasjonen mener Bergen og regionen risikerer at et fremtidig høyhastighetsnett mellom byene i Norge ikke vil ta Bergen med i beregningen, hvis ikke de folkevalgte i kommunen snart kommer på banen.

-Stort potensial
- Politikerne i Bergen må slutte å tro på fire timers reisetid langs denne traseen. Det vil koste vanvittig mye penger og gi et veldig dårlig resultat, sier Hermstad.

Framtiden i våre hender har beregnet at en høyhastighetsbane vil ha et langt større passasjerpotensial enn firetimers-alternativet.

-En høyhastighetsbane vil kunne gi et stort innhogg i det betalingsvillige forretningsreisende-markedet .

Økt markedsandel vil også gi grunnlag for hyppigere avganger, ifølge rapporten.

20 milliarder ekstra
Minirapporten fastslår at alternativet med å ruste opp Bergensbanen til fem timers reisetid er langt mer fornuftig økonomisk enn å satse på firetimers-løsningen.

Begrunnelsen er at det trolig vil koste 20 milliarder kroner å realisere det første alternativet, mens prisen for å korte ned reisetiden med ytterligere én time er hele 60 milliarder.

-Da kan man like godt legge 20 milliarder til i potten og få en moderne og fremtidsrettet høyhastighetsbane mellom våre to største byer, mener Hermstad.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/innenriks/--Bergensbanen-er-et-blindspor-2571285.html

He is of course completely right.

Also, 2,5 hours.. :drool: please let it happen.

I'd be interested in knowing how many people traveling from Bergen to Oslo who's final destination is Oslo?

Dovrebanen Eidsvoll - Hamar
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Dovrebanen.jpg

-Første salve for kjempetunnel (http://www.eub.no/nyheter/article5720417.ece)

The new parcel Barkåker - Tønsberg is to be opened on November 7, and for the finishing works the line will be closed from monday 23. September in order to complete the new strech as well as some other minor works.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/jbvbarkker01.jpg
Barkåker, facing Tønsberg (Photo: Jernbaneverket/Jarle Foss)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/jbvbarkker02.jpg
Barkåker, facing north (Photo: Jernbaneverket/Jarle Foss)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/jbvbarkker03.jpg
Jarlsbergtunnelen entrance (Photo: Jernbaneverket/Jarle Foss)

Source (http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Vestfoldbanen-stenges-i-seks-uker-for-innkobling-av-ny-strekning/)

Some more Flirt images, taken at Drammen station
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Flirt01.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Flirt02.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Flirt03.jpg

Why do they choose to paint all of the doors in this ugly orange colour?

As a safety feature would be my guess. Making them easier to see. :)

Follobanen
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Follobanen.jpg

Jernbaneverket has gone through the comments they received in this summer's hearing on Follobanen, and not to my surprise, has a "magical" 3rd option on Follobanen through Gamle Oslo appeared. Instead of digging up graves in Gamlebyen gravlund or demolishing protected buildings in Mosseveien, they will seek to fit a fourth track in "klypen" (The medeival park) in spite of original claims.

Everyone knew this was the only acceptable way to solve this from the beginning, but thank you Riksantikvar, for yet again demanding costly and time-consuming alternate studies that no one give a damn about. It really states how important your function as a government institution is!


Oh, and for the timescale, kjetilab's illustration is wrong. As I think I have speculated on earlier, 2020 is the year they hope to be done, not 2018.

http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Alternativ-innforing-av-Follobanen-til-Oslo-S-skal-utredes/

When will the suburban version of the FLIRT be introduced?

They haven't publicly announced anny dates about this yet, but it's reasonable to think they will be put in traffic from summer 2012 as soon as they're ready and tested.

Work on Africa's first HSR (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g_B2baURY94chjVVli6x9_IIb1mA?docId=CNG.796bcdc923bbc744def101c20b7aa0a7.771) has just started.. someone should show this to the Norwegian politicians.

^^ Why? I'm sure most people in Norway (even politicians!) know that there are HSR stretch under construction in other countries. Some are even completed and fully operated. Not completely sure what your point is.

That this is in a shitpoor and relatively small and not very prosperous country.

^^ A shit poor country with more money than New Zealand and Qatar.

I didn't know Morocco had a higher GDP per capita than NZ and Qatar.

No, but you don't build infrastructure per capita either. It's the size of the economy that matters, and a bigger economy will be able to swallow bigger projects. We could never, ever afford all the mega-project China is currently building even though we have higher GDP per capita than them for instance.

Yes, but it shows that they are prioritizing HSR even in a country as poor as Morocco.. while in Norway we couldn't give less of a fuck about it.

^^You know the possibility for HSR in Norway is being studied right now?

So what's all the current discussions and "utredninger" about then?

Yeah, let's wait and see.. I would be shocked if we saw any of that HSR built before 2030.

Maybe as a pensionist I'll get to ride on a HSR in Norway.. in the meantime there's always Morocco.

But that's due to how much time we use on taking these decisions. Everybody must be allowed to voice their opinion about everything.

@City of Rain - what's your point? Chinese have even lower GDP per capita than Morocco,but have insane HSR developments built,U/C or planned. Some country's wealth (or lack of it) is hardly determining factor for HSR. Construction costs and population density & size are far more important factors.

Comparing Morocco to China isn't gonna get you anywhere..

Yeah, let's wait and see.. I would be shocked if we saw any of that HSR built before 2030.

We're building it right now, started with our first stretch in the 90s... We've got 54 km U/C right now and another 15km start next year and then another 22km start construction in 2013.

Comparing Morocco to China isn't gonna get you anywhere..

Neither is comparing Norway & Morocco ;) Anyway,enough of that.

Btw,how many Stadler Flirts have been delivered to NSB by now? How good/bad are they?

^^ That's exactly my point.. we shouldn't be compared to Morocco, and now they're doing better than us.

The case of China is entirely different..

^^ Somehow think their planing proses is a little bit shorter than ours.

Btw,how many Stadler Flirts have been delivered to NSB by now? How good/bad are they?

50 is to be delivered by 2012, but I don't know how many that have arrived by now. They are currently undergoing testing, so the qulity remains to be seen. But at least they look good and have a top speed 40km/h above the trains they're replacing.

1,36 Billion NOK contract signed on Vestfoldbanen project (http://www.bygg.no/2011/10/gigantprosjekt-til-skanska)

-Biggest contract in Jernbaneverkets history.
-Contains construction of underground station with 4 tracks suited for 250km/h (total length: 2370 metres)
- 1930 metres of main tunnel

Station interior
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Holmestrand01.jpg

Exterior
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Holmestrand02.jpg
Renderings by Skanska

Finally, we're seeing some results from Oslo-utredningen:

Jernbaneverket utreder ny tunnel under Oslo

01.11.2011 Som en del av arbeidet med å forberede neste Nasjonal transportplan utreder Jernbaneverket nå behovet for, og mulighetene for, å bygge en ny jernbanetunnel gjennom Oslo. Bakgrunnen er at Østlandsområdet står overfor en stor vekst i befolkningen og en enda større trafikkvekst.


http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/Oslonavet2-illustrasjon520.jpg
Ulike tunnelalternativer som utredes av Jernbaneverket.


- Skal kollektivtrafikken ta unna mye av trafikkveksten, må jernbanens rolle avklares. Derfor utredes blant annet behovet for ny jernbanetunnel under Oslo, sier Anne Marstein, regional plan- og utviklingsdirektør i Jernbaneverket øst. Utredningen må sees i sammenheng med planer for utvidelse av det øvrige kollektivtrafikknettet i Oslo og Akershus.

Det er ikke avklart om Jernbaneverket vil komme til å anbefale en ny tunnel, eller ikke. En rekke utredninger gjennomføres. Mange behov skal veies opp mot hverandre i arbeidet med forslag til ny Nasjonal transportplan 2014-2023.

Denne utredningen ser blant annet på om en ny tunnel kan gjøre det mulig med enda flere togavganger enn det nå legges opp til i forbindelse med den nye ruteplanen for Østlandsområdet. Fra 2013 -2016 blir det uansett økning i antall togavganger på en rekke strekninger, og økt utnyttelse av den eksisterende tunnelen gjennom Oslo. Dette blir mulig med kapasitetsøkende tiltak i Oslotunnelen og nye vendeanlegg for tog flere steder. Med disse økte avgangene vil grensen for hvor mye trafikk dagens tunnel kan ta unna være nådd.

Jernbaneverket utreder tre ulike tunnelalternativer fra Oslo S til Lysaker:
1. Via Filipstad
2. Via Nationaltheatret
3. Via Majorstua
4. Et alternativ utenom Oslo S med stasjon under Stortinget

Målet er å finnet ut hvor en slik tunnel kan gå, når den eventuelt kan stå ferdig og hva den kan komme til å koste. Utredningen er ikke ferdig og resultatene av arbeidet med Jernbaneverkets anbefalinger ventes presentert i forbindelse med våre innspill til neste Nasjonal transportplan i slutten av februar.

http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Jernbaneverket-utreder-ny-tunnel-under-Oslo/

Interesting to see that most of the proposals also include a new station north of Lysaker (next to CC-Vest roughly?)

More information will be available on the monitors:

http://www.jernbaneverket.no/PageFiles/16172/ESO-prosjektet%20Hva%20vises%20b550.jpg?epslanguage=no

"Internasjonalt er det vanlig å vise hvor vognene stopper ved plattformen slik at påstigende reisende kan plassere seg riktig, dette er særlig viktig for rullestoler og barnevogner. I Norge er det satt opp skilt som viser soner på Nationaltheatret spor 1 og 2 samt på Skøyen spor 3 og 4, men disse har aldri vært brukt til annet enn testing."

We really need this if we want to reduce stop times!

http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Mer-informasjon-ved-togavganger-/

Interesting to see that most of the proposals also include a new station north of Lysaker (next to CC-Vest roughly?)

That was news to me as well.

Most of the plans I've seen call for a widening of the tracks between the current Skoyen and Lysaker stations, not a whole new tunnel.

Adressa (http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/nordtrondelag/article1722712.ece)
Östersundsposten (http://op.se/lanet/ostersund/1.4074060-el-pa-merakerbanan-klar-fem-ar-tidigare)


Tirsdag skal det formelt vedtas å starte en organisasjon for å fremskynde elektrifiseringen av jernbanen mellom Trondheim og Storlien. Men ifølge varaordfører Arne Braut i Sør-Trøndelag fylkeskommune, dette så godt som klart

– Jernbaneverket og Trafikverket har lagt en plan for elektrifisering, men det handler om ti år frem i tid. Det har vi ikke tid til å vente på, sier han til Östersundsposten.

That was news to me as well.

Most of the plans I've seen call for a widening of the tracks between the current Skoyen and Lysaker stations, not a whole new tunnel.

It really doesn't make sens to develope a new station at lilleaker instead of using the new Lysaker station. People need to be able to change from trains to busses or from train to the new fornebu line (if it ever comes). All should be located at the same place.

Also think of how long time it has taken to build the new tunnels between Asker and Oslo. Believe the works has taken about 10 years and cost many billions.

If the Asker line had been built continuous, in stead of a longer "break" between the two current parcels it would have taken half the time, and cost a lot less.
A new Oslo-tunnel would be useless to build in stages like that.

From a HSR point of view it does make sense to bypass Lysaker station because of the curvature.

It should connect directly to the proposed new tunnel Oslo - Drammen...

Time lapse video of the final works on the Barkåker-Tønsberg parcel by Jernbaneverket
PVx5IByrf-4

Time lapse video of the final works on the Barkåker-Tønsberg parcel by Jernbaneverket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVx5IByrf-4

Embedding - You're doing it wrong!:lol:

You're not supposed to put the whole URL between the Youtube-tags, only the video-code (10-11-digit)

PVx5IByrf-4

I always seems to get this wrong... And it's not the first time IceCheese has pointed this out to me either...
But should work fine now

Different corridors for Norwegian HSR:

http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/Ingenioren3/hsr.png

Source:http://www.jernbaneverket.no/PageFiles/16295/Jernbanemagasinet%20nr%208-2011b.pdf

That's pretty cool, maybe Numedalsbanen will finally be a part of Bergensbanen as was the original intention.

Different corridors for Norwegian HSR:

http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/Ingenioren3/hsr.png

Source:http://www.jernbaneverket.no/PageFiles/16295/Jernbanemagasinet%20nr%208-2011b.pdf

Not to be a critic, but the only really new one, is the one over (or under) Rondane. This is the original mandate: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/PageFiles/13694/Corridor%20maps%5b1%5d.pdf

Poor Sogn og Fjordane and Møre og Romsdal :(

There should be a Bergen-Ålesund-Trondheim line, too.

No, it's not "poor Sogn & Fjordane", just as it's not "poor Finnmark" or poor Svalbard. It's a total waste of resources.

It should be further investigations in improving the Åndalsnes-line, though, with possible new arms for the Møre & Romsdal cities, and/or possibly Trondheim.

Poor Sogn og Fjordane and Møre og Romsdal :(


Why? The length of time it would take to drive from Molde, Kristiansund and all the other small towns around here to Andalsness or Alesund makes flying much more attractive.

It could have stops in both Ålesund and Molde. Møre og Romsdal, Sogn og Fjordane and Sør-Trøndelag have a total population of like 650 000.. of course they should not be ignored in the establishment of a HSR line. Yet another example of the Oslo-centric reality of this country was unveiled in today's BA..

Nye i øst - tilbaketog i vest
Sist gang strekningen Bergen-Voss fikk fabrikknye tog var i 1952. Nå har NSB kjøpt 50 nye togsett. Ingen skal brukes her.

De 50 nye togene til en pris av fire milliarder kroner skal utelukkende brukes på Østlandet.

SVs sekretær i stortingets transportkomité, Reidar Ryssdal, tok saken opp i et møte med departementet og fagfolk i Jernbaneverket og NSB.

–Vi lurte på om ikke noen kunne brukes på Jæren og Vossebanen for å avhjelpe situasjonen i de områdene. Da fikk vi til svar at det bare var i Drammen og Skien disse togene kunne repareres, og dermed ble det uaktuelt, sier Ryssdal til BA.

– Er det romferger?

Ved et stopp et sted mellom Bergen og Voss, nærmere bestemt Vaksdal, bor SVs «enfant terrible» Kjartan Haugsnes. Haugsnes beskriver svaret de har fått som «hull i hodet», og spør om det er romferger det er snakk om.

Men svaret er korrekt, bekrefter kommunikasjonssjef i NSB Persontog, Åge-Christoffer Lundeby overfor BA.

–Det er samtidig litt mer nyansert. Det er ikke naturlig å oppgradere verkstedet, for eksempel i Bergen, all den tid togene ikke er planlagt dit.

–Når sist fikk strekningen Bergen-Voss helt nye tog?

–I 1952, svarer Lundeby etter å ha sjekket dette opp internt i NSB.

–Hvor gamle er togene som går på dette strekket nå?

– Fra 1970-tallet?

–Kan togene som skal erstattes med nye tog på Østlandet havne her?

–Meningen er ikke å erstatte de gamle togene fullt ut, mange av dem skal fremdeles gå i samme område. Meningen er å skape en kapasitetsøkning på om lag 30 prosent. Men enkelte tog kan bli satt i tjeneste i vest.

–Hvor gamle er de?

–Fra sent 1970-tall. Noen også fra tidlig 1980-tall, svarer Lundeby.

VELTER SEG I LUKSUS

Altså kan togene som skal erstattes på Østlandet være nyere enn togene som per i dag går mellom Bergen og Voss. Etter 1952 har vårt område arvet brukte tog. De nye togene som skal gå på Østlandet har fått prisen «Red Dot Design Award». NSBs konsernsjef Bjørn Enger sier at passasjerene vil få en helt ny hverdag med moderne fasiliteter og brukervennlige løsninger. Det er fire sett i landet nå. Utpå vårparten vil de få inn ett nytt tog hver uke fra produsenten Stadler.

–Det er det glade vannvidd at bare Østlandet får nye tog, mens vi her vest konsekvent må arve de brukte. Fem nye togsett ville tatt unna trafikken på Vossebanen, mener han.

– TOGENE ER NEDSLITT

Pendlerne på strekningen Bergen-Voss er enige: Vognene hører til på teknisk-historisk museum.

– Disse togene er nedslitt, og trenger en oppgradering, sier Ingelin Søraas (46).

BA møter pendleren mellom Bergen og Dale på vei inn mot sentrum, og hun stusser over prioriteringene fra NSB og jernbaneverket.

– Men vi her i Bergen er kanskje blitt vant med å bli litt nedprioritert. Det er vel flere som tar toget på Østlandet. Vi har egentlig bare akseptert at standarden er dårlig, tror Søraas.

Hun er ikke i tvil om at nye tog ville vært viktig for pendlerne – særlig med tanke på mulighetene for internett.

– Da kunne jeg jobbet på toget. Det er 90 minutter hver dag. For dem som pendler fra Voss snakker vi over to timer. Å være uten internett i et slikt tidsrom er veldig ineffektivt, mener hun.

–Folk reagerer. De sier det er urettferdig at togene er som de er. Standarden kan absolutt påvirke folks togbruk, innrømmer en NSB-ansatt overfor BA.

http://www.ba.no/nyheter/article5813541.ece

^^Nord-Norge has almost half a million people. Not forget them either! Alle skal med!

A HSR-line going up to Tromsø would be epic. Perhaps it could be more economically viable if we made it a collaboration between Norway and Sweden.

Tromsø - Murmansk :)

Yes, why not? :dunno: Mumansk has a population of 300k and nearby Severomorsk has 50k. The question is whether there are enough people travelling between these areas.

It could have stops in both Ålesund and Molde. Møre og Romsdal, Sogn og Fjordane and Sør-Trøndelag have a total population of like 650 000.. of course they should not be ignored in the establishment of a HSR line. Yet another example of the Oslo-centric reality of this country was unveiled in today's BA..



http://www.ba.no/nyheter/article5813541.ece
OK, as you know, I think vestlendinger are world champion whiners, but the point about internet I can agree with.

I would like to see the crying if it was the other way around.:lol:
Pathetic. Maybe they should just rename it ØSB and let some private company take over Vossabanen.
Since they can only fix the new trains in the east will that mean we will never get new ones in the west then and just get the scraps from the east when they are worn out.

I don't get it. The article clearly states we won't get any new trains either, just a very few to put in between all the old ones. Once again BA tries to turn something that should be very pleasing to everyone riding the trains (since bigger capacity should mean more trains on time), into a "skjevfordeling" scheme. I don't think any Vestlendinger wants us to be standing "sild i tønne" on old wrecks from the early seventees, because if anything new is acuired "they should get it first".
But it's obvious that NSB should continue buying new trains, as this order clearly isn't enough. I was riding a type 69 this Friday, and we barely made it out of Oslo S because the over-filled two-wagon set was bugging and jumping.To put it differently, you wouldn't have driven a 41 year old car.

I would like to see the crying if it was the other way around.:lol:
Pathetic. Maybe they should just rename it ØSB and let some private company take over Vossabanen.

Why not privatize all public transport? I doubt we would suffer from that. So we could just leave the "centralization"-crying babies to fund their services themself. Then perhaps we could rid of things like Hurtigruten that would never have survived in the open market.

Why not privatize all public transport? I doubt we would suffer from that. So we could just leave the "centralization"-crying babies to fund their services themself. Then perhaps we could rid of things like Hurtigruten that would never have survived in the open market.


:lol:
Would that mean that the Oslo-area had to fund things like the double track inter-city triangle by themselves it's a good deal for us.
Hurtigruten allready is private. Same way as a private company could deliver services on Vossebanen istead of NSB.

:lol:
Hurtigruten allready is private. Same way as a private company could deliver services on Vossebanen istead of NSB.

You think the Hurtigruten is competing in a open market? Then what the heck are we paying subsides for then? It's not proper privatization if the state has to take the bill.

You think the Hurtigruten is competing in a open market? Then what the heck are we paying subsides for then? It's not proper privatization if the state has to take the bill.

Hurtigruten is a private company that is paid by the state to give a service. I don't know why you brought it up in this rail thread. If you wanted to look at "subsidies" you could just have a look at gardermobanen that had it's loan written of by the state since they had no chance to pay it back. Maybe you think transport subsidies is only things that happen in other parts of the country? If Norway cut state "transport subsidies" the railnetwork in eastern Norway would be the biggest loser.

If NSB is not able to provide a good service in other parts of the country others should be given a chance. It doesn't have to be a private company it could allso be Skyss like Bergen Venstre has been talking about since it allready deals with the rest of the public transport in Hordaland like busses, bybanen, boats.

http://www.venstre.no/hordaland/bergen/artikkel/17762
For å oppnå en helhetlig kollektivtrafikk i Hordaland må Skyss overta administrasjonen av Vossabanen. Slik planene nå er for Skyss skal de administrere buss og båt i fylket. De har også fått ansvaret for Bybanen i Bergen. Det mener Bergen Venstres årsmøte.

It's not proper privatization if the state pays for the service. They don't have to compete with anything as the revenue is already secured from the state. It's completely irrelevant if the companies owners are private. The issue is the competition, or lack thereof. I brought Hurtigruten up as an example of another useless thing we could rid of with privatization. It shouldn't be the government responsibility to subsidize peoples choice on where to settle. If the local authorities wants to do it then that's up to them. And yes, that goes for Gardemobanen, ferries, airports, busses, trains, trams etc.

If you wanted to look at "subsidies" you could just have a look at gardermobanen that had it's loan written of by the state since they had no chance to pay it back. Maybe you think transport subsidies is only things that happen in other parts of the country? If Norway cut state "transport subsidies" the railnetwork in eastern Norway would be the biggest loser.
Well, they could have used some of the billion that OSL have to subsidize smaller airports around the country with each year.

You need to come to terms with public transport being subsidized wether you privatize or not, only Flytoget runs with a profit.

Finally we can read the reports:
http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Hoyhastighet-Kan-bli-et-tilbud-ogsa-for-distriktene/

Jepp, a big step ahead. Mostly I think both the 330km/h options and the 250km/h options are to extreme. A combination will work better, really fast over the mountains and forrest areas, while slower picking up passengers in urban districts as Vestfold, Østfold, Sørlandet etc...

I hope the conclusion will put the first HSR-line in the NTP 2014-2023.:)

Illustration of a Hardangerfjord-crossing, made by Sweco:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/hyhastighet-hardanger-bredde.jpg

Jepp, a big step ahead. Mostly I think both the 330km/h options and the 250km/h options are to extreme. A combination will work better, really fast over the mountains and forrest areas, while slower picking up passengers in urban districts as Vestfold, Østfold, Sørlandet etc...

I hope the conclusion will put the first HSR-line in the NTP 2014-2023.:)
With a proper intercity-triangle ready, I dont think Vestfold deserve a HSR station. Fredrikstad/Sarpsborg should have one, and Grenland, but thats it.

Perhaps at the Sandefjord airport? I definately think this is a valueable place to connect.

That would be better. It could been a good hub, where local and HSR meets.

Illustration of a Hardangerfjord-crossing, made by Sweco:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/hyhastighet-hardanger-bredde.jpg

Samnangerfjord actually.... The Hardanger crossing needs a slightly more ambitious structure:

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv353/Ingenioren2/hsrjondal.jpg

Illustration of a Hardangerfjord-crossing, made by Sweco:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o309/IceCheese/hyhastighet-hardanger-bredde.jpg

I wonder why they left out the powerlines? :dunno:

Scared that someone will accuse them of buildng "monstermasts" maybe.

Well, they could have used some of the billion that OSL have to subsidize smaller airports around the country with each year.I would just like to add that it is not just OSL that subsidises smaller airports, and that it is not so long ago that OSL itself had to be subsidised.

Even with hsr built those small airports will still be there, proposed lines does not serve those remote areas that have small airports... I imagine both Kjevik and Karmøy has enough traffic to survive on their own?

New roads are a better tool to remove those airports...

Only the big four has a surplus. All other public airports in Norway has deficit and is subsidized by the big four.

It could have stops in both Ålesund and Molde. Møre og Romsdal, Sogn og Fjordane and Sør-Trøndelag have a total population of like 650 000.. of course they should not be ignored in the establishment of a HSR line. Yet another example of the Oslo-centric reality of this country was unveiled in today's BA..



http://www.ba.no/nyheter/article5813541.ece

Why spend billions bringing HSR to small towns like Molde, Alesund and Kristiansund when they have very effective and quick air links to Oslo. No way would I be impressed spending 3 hours plus on a train when the flight including driving to the airport takes 1.15 minutes. I'd much rather have a better road and a 5 hour drive to Oslo rather than the 8 plus it takes today.

And why would you take a 5 hours drive over a 3 hours train ride? Besides, Oslo isn't the only destination for people living in the Ålesund-area..

It's pretty much impossible to cross Sognefjorden and Storfjorden with the current technology. So a route between Ålesund and Bergen is pretty much impossible. A route between Ålesund - Molde - Kristiansund - Trondheim is possible. But will be way to expensive compared to the traffic. So would a Ålesund - Bergen route too if it were possible to build. That's the sad truth.

And why would you take a 5 hours drive over a 3 hours train ride? Besides, Oslo isn't the only destination for people living in the Ålesund-area..

Me personally when I'm heading out of Molde it's either a business trip where I fly to Gardermoen and out of Norway or it's going on holiday with the family so I need a car, I'm not going to put the family on a train, I prefer the freedom of having a car at my disposal.

I don't think you're very representative of the average Moldenser.

I don't think I'm that different from most of the people I know and work with. When you see the people who generally fly between Molde and Oslo at least 2/3's of them are business passangers, and at least half of them transfer to another flight, I very much doubt the business community in Molde will switch from air to rail transport, 3 hours plus on a train or 40 minute flight plus a 19 minute rail journey into Oslo, it's a no brainer. Molde also has prety cheap and very quick flights to Trondheim and Bergen, both far quicker than any train will ever be.

Not everyone in Molde are business people, and it depends on how fast we could get the train between Ålesund and Bergen. It could probably be faster than 2 hours in which case many would prefer it over air travel.

Think of all the people who could just commute between these two regions on a regular basis with such a regular offer.

Btw, did anyone catch the new railroad report that was published by The Ministry lf Transportation today? Link to report: http://www.regjeringen.no/Upload/SD/Vedlegg/Jernbane/hoering_jernbanegrupperapport_2011/Rapport_Jernbanegruppa.pdf Link to Aftenposten article: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Slik-vil-Kleppa-endre-jernbanen-6711380.html

Could we be the genertion that sees a new approach to investing in national infrastructure in this country?? Or will Ap continue to block everything that smells of private cooperation and project funding?

I'd like to hope so, but this isn't the first time the government has promised us a "jernbaneløft."

Not everyone in Molde are business people, and it depends on how fast we could get the train between Ålesund and Bergen. It could probably be faster than 2 hours in which case many would prefer it over air travel.

No that's true but at least half of the people who use the airport are. So from Molde you still have to drive nearly 1.5 hours to get to Alesund, yet you could jump in a plane and fly direct to in 30 minutes. Also Alesund Bergen on a plane is 25 minutes, I wouldn't spend 4 times as long on a train, remember these are small towns where the airport isn't very far from the town centre, HSR even if it gets here wouldn't be all that attractive IMO.

How can a plane take 30 minutes between Molde and Ålesund and 25 minutes between Molde and Bergen? I think a HSR between Molde and Ålesund would be great for the region, and then we could connect it to Trondheim and maybe also Bergen later.

And depending on traffic, it can take more than 30 minutes to get from the city centre in Bergen to the airport.. then you have check-in time and airport security etc.. and speed isn't everything, you know. Many will find it far more convenient to just get on a train (though personally I really enjoy being in airports).

Sorry I wasn't very clear, if you have train between Ålesund and Bergen a person in Molde would still have to drive 1.5 hours to get to Ålesund before they caught the train to Bergen, when they can fly to Bergen in about 30 minutes direct from Molde, Bergen Ålesund is about 25 minutes. If you have carry-on only you don't need much time at the airport, security in small arirports like Molde, Ålesund and Kristiansund takes about 5-10 minutes.

I think the closest rail will ever get to Molde or Kristiansund is Andalsnes, which is nearly 2 hours drive from Kristiansund and an hour from Molde, which makes HSR a poor substitute for flying IMO.

Well, I think a Molde-Ålesund-Kristiansund-Trondheim line should be prioritized over linking said line to Bergen. Maybe then we would have a market for a line connecting Trondheim to Bergen through Ålesund.

There's a reason no one suggested such a line. At this point it's to difficult to cross the fjords on the coast, it would have to run some serious detours inland to serve all 3 M&R towns., in the future we will develope technology that should allow such a line tough. Clearly we should start with Trondheim - Oslo since it's a relatively simple build (Østerdalen ofcourse.)

http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/12/04/nyheter/nsb/innenriks/samferdsel/jernbaneverket/19278403/
«Utredningen om lyntog på kryss og tvers i Norge var en politisk bløff! Stortinget og Regjering har visst at svaret ble nei før utredningen ble igangsatt»

Tidligere NSB-sjef Osmund Ueland mener Jernbaneverkets fire konsulentrapporter om lyntog bygger på en politisk bløff. (http://www.ba.no/nyheter/article5833483.ece)

The Swedes are considering shutting down the Trondheim-Östersund passenger train, due to the lack of electrification on the Norwegian side.

http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/sortrondelag/article1740015.ece

It is about time we start the electrification of Meråkerbanen and Nordlandsbanen (to Steinkjer) now!

Here is some slightly older news on upgraded platforms. Not exactly big news compared to what goes on in the rest of the country, but in Trøndelag this is a small step in the right direction.

http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2011/Holdeplasser-pa-Tronderbanen-fornyet/

Where do the double-track stop?

There are no double track on the railways in Trønderlag.

Double track Bergen - Arna
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Flyen.jpg

Grønt lys for dobbeltspor Bergen-Arna: http://www.bygg.no/2011/12/groent-lys-for-dobbeltspor-bergen-arna

Good news for Bergen! Too bad they were not that visionary in Trondheim when they built the single track, 670 MNOK Hell-tunnel which was completed this year

Not enough capacity on the trains in Trøndelag.

http://nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_trondelag/1.7926201

In 2014 it is the 150th anniversary of railway operation in Trøndelag. Hopefully by then electrification will be just around the corner.

Found a nice overview by Jernbaneverket Plan Øst/Øyvind Rørslett, given at a meeting on the future of the Gjøvik line last year. Not sure it has been shown here before. Both planned and potential lines are drawn here, like the Ringeriksbane from Sandvika to Hønefoss, and continuation north from Gjøvik. Personally I would like to see fast commuter traffic extended also to Jevnaker from Hønefoss, perhaps even served as a "ring-line" Oslo-Roa-Jevnaker-Hønefoss-Oslo. It would help a lot on the pressure in Oslo if/when Hønefoss would be 28 minutes away from Oslo S (Jevnaker then around 35?). Plenty of room for nice housing there. But I guess all the people on the infrastructure side think "nobody lives there, we cannot build a railway/road", while all those on the buildings side think "there's no communication, we cannot build any houses there"... They should do like they did with the Oslo subway line 5; just build it, out in the farmland, and wait to see the suburbs pop up like mushroom along the stations.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m624/bookingsOslo/tog.jpg

The whole presentation here (http://www.gjovikregionen.no/filer/lastned/130/0)

PS And while we're at it, they should throw in a loop from Moss to the Vestfold line too, combined with the Oslofjord bridge :banana:

Personally I would like to see fast commuter traffic extended also to Jevnaker from Hønefoss, perhaps even served as a "ring-line" Oslo-Roa-Jevnaker-Hønefoss-Oslo. It would help a lot on the pressure in Oslo if/when Hønefoss would be 28 minutes away from Oslo S (Jevnaker then around 35?). Plenty of room for nice housing there. But I guess all the people on the infrastructure side think "nobody lives there, we cannot build a railway/road", while all those on the buildings side think "there's no communication, we cannot build any houses there"...

I building spread-out suburbs far away from the city was a national priority, your argument would make sense, but the opposit is true, and there are good reasons to prefer densification.

Okay, hypothetically if we get HSR which type of rolling stock would you like to see running on it?

Personally I really enjoy the Bombardier Zefiro family, especially the 380. :drool:
http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/desktop/en/mediacenter/images/06_5014029429_8e70fe4e75_o.jpg
http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/

Being a sucker for German Railways, I would love to see the Siemens Velaro (http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/en/interurban-mobility/rail-solutions/high-speed-and-intercity-trains/velaro/Pages/velaro.aspx#Proven%20state-of-the-art%20technology) on a norwegian high speed network. But I really don't feel very strongly about it.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/kjetilbalog/SCC/Siemensvelaro.jpg
(C) Siemens

Double track between Larvik and Porsgrunn (http://nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/ostafjells/vestfold/1.7941302), construction to start this fall. Forumers might have seen this coming, but at least now it's been confirmed by Kleppa.

Double track between Larvik and Porsgrunn

But nearby another stretch of double track stands un-used (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/ostafjells/vestfold/1.7942160).

Why did the second track have a limit of 70 kph?

But nearby another stretch of double track stands un-used (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/ostafjells/vestfold/1.7942160).

Why did the second track have a limit of 70 kph?

Because of EU regulations of all things.

The EU has a common directory of train schedules for the EU and EØS, which is only updated once a year. Because of this, Norwegian train schedules can only be changed once a year. It's the same reason why trains using the new tunnel between Sandvika and Lysaker (built for 160 km/h) couldn't go faster than 60 km/h up until last sunday.

You'd think that in these days the directory would be electronic and updated/synchronized automatically.

NSB Type 74 is expected to enter traffic February 29th: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/NSBs-Flirt-starter-p-skuddrsdagen-6737559.html

As we knew, they will start to traffic line 20, Skien - Lillehammer.

Rapport: Lyntog-utbygging gir ikke klimagevinst (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Rapport-Lyntog-utbygging-gir-ikke-klimagevinst-6740459.html#.Tw8yPG9f6Os)

^^I don't understand that report at all. Of course constructing a big new part of infrastructure will lead to a short term increase in emissions. It's a no-brainer. But the long term affect of this project is a better local climate in our cities, and this report won't change that. Should we just continue to drive our cars on our shitty roads, just because building new makes emissions? How much emission does maintainance of current lines give??

Btw, there are worse examples of "vinninga går opp i spinninga" in other so-called climate savers, such as electric cars (batteries are death to climate), el-efficient light bulbs (they use dangerous metals that are a far bigger climate killer than CO2 ever was) etc. etc. Doesn't mean we can't start trying new stuff, though..

Lyntog gir store naturinngrep (http://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/Lyntog-gir-store-naturinngrep-2640582.html)

^^Who would have guessed? :eek:

Lyntog gir store naturinngrep (http://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/Lyntog-gir-store-naturinngrep-2640582.html)

Isn't that bergensbanen, though? I that that Haukeli was much better?

Lyntog gir store naturinngrep (http://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/Lyntog-gir-store-naturinngrep-2640582.html)

Doesn't come as a shock that local communities are opposed to this. The problem is that an HSR line is mainly a city to city service. Which means that stops along the way, at least outside the intercity triangle, aren't that important. Geilo for example only has 2300 inhabitants.

One possibility would be to make sure that there are some good interchange stations between Bergensbanen and HSR along the track, so that the old line can be used as a feeder line to the new service.

Doesn't come as a shock that local communities are opposed to this. The problem is that an HSR line is mainly a city to city service. Which means that stops along the way, at least outside the intercity triangle, aren't that important. Geilo for example only has 2300 inhabitants.

One possibility would be to make sure that there are some good interchange stations between Bergensbanen and HSR along the track, so that the old line can be used as a feeder line to the new service.

Yes. That's how they should do it in my opinion also. The line is mainly build for fast transport between Oslo and Bergen so that should be the main priority if speed and time is desired. But there are so much politics in this question so i think that it's not how it turns out.

Final conclusions of the HSR-investigations will be released next Wednesday. A press conference will be held at 13 pm, and reports will be published online shortly after: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Prosjekter/Hoyhastighetsutredningen/Nyhetsarkiv/25-januar-kommer-sluttrapporten/
The day after, Thursday the 26th, there will be an open seminar where all the different companies involved in the investigations present their results and work. Everyone are free to attend, just sign up here: http://modul.event123.no/jbv/hu0112/).

Next step will be political decissions following NTP 2014-23.

- Lyntog vil koste nær 1.000 milliarder (http://www.bygg.no/2012/01/83628.0)

Bollocks. Very bad article. It doesn't say what that 1000 billion would go to, nor do it say what kind of route(s) they suggest.

Edit: And they are quoting VG...

The report from the HSR assessment is presented right now, hence the few details..

Pressemelding from Jernbaneverket: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2012/Tog-pa-hoyhastighetsbaner-kan-drives-bedriftsokonomisk-lonnsomt/

A bit surprise, the recommend starting with Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger, and not Oslo-Trondheim as previously speculated.

Finally they quit Lysaker and Asker. But I see they added two cities in Vestfold. Maybe just go for Larvik and add Arendal maybe?

They are not saying much about alternative D, which is interesting but extremely expensive.

No Bergen-Stavanger.. I suddenly lost all interest in this project.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/--Glem-lyntog-til-Stavanger-2645512.html

No Bergen-Stavanger.. I suddenly lost all interest in this project.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/--Glem-lyntog-til-Stavanger-2645512.html

I didn't read the article, but I read the source. No place they were writing that this would not happen. But they was writing that other routes was more of a service to the community.

I myself is strongly disagreeing with the conclusion of Jernbaneverket.
You can't expect them to propose a route that is efficient over a route that is practical. These guys are thinking of the general public, so they need to take precautions. But I think that they should build a direct route that have 1 stop max at 100km. Oslo - Drammen - one city in Vestfold - one city at sørlandet - Kristiandsand - one stop before Sandnes and Stavanger

No Bergen-Stavanger.. I suddenly lost all interest in this project.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/--Glem-lyntog-til-Stavanger-2645512.html

What are you going to do in Stavanger? The Vestlands traffic is mostly direct towards us, like it or not.

Pressemelding from Jernbaneverket: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2012/Tog-pa-hoyhastighetsbaner-kan-drives-bedriftsokonomisk-lonnsomt/

A bit surprise, the recommend starting with Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger, and not Oslo-Trondheim as previously speculated.

Strange indeed. Oslo-Tynset-Trondheim is best both on all economic factors and the environment. http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/dokumenter/2012/Utredninger/Hoyhastighetsutredningen/Oversikt---Hoyhastighetsbaner/

This reply is not directly concerning the railway/HSR, and might not be the appropriate arena for a debate. So if that's not your thing, please just disregard my reply.

What are you going to do in Stavanger? The Vestlands traffic is mostly direct towards us, like it or not.

I think it's wrong to make decisions for the future based on what is, rather than what can be. I don't see any obvious reason for Oslo to be the base for everything besides the obvious fact that it is the capital. I can understand why the capital would like to keep it this way, but central power should understand and respect that people elsewhere doesn't necessarily want this. I believe the west coast of Norway has a certain bond in this aspect, and would like to be more connected without having to go about Oslo for everything.

You might argue that these kinds of values should be kept aside when it's a question of prosperity. However I think we can all agree on that the question is what do we really want from this prosperity? If all we do is to chase prosperity it self, we lose the initial purposes that lies behind this collective chase that is society. Also, considering all the production and value creation that comes from this area, I think it's only fair to ask for such a thing.

And who knows, maybe it will lead to something we can all benefit from. Some things are just too theoretic to be conclusive. You never know what you'll get. These reports does not take that into account, and inevitably ends up blurring the bigger picture. If societies were to be built on these practices we'd still be living in the mud, dwelling on whether or not we should get up and do something about it, because it was simply too inconclusive to tell.

Strange indeed. Oslo-Tynset-Trondheim is best both on all economic factors and the environment. http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/dokumenter/2012/Utredninger/Hoyhastighetsutredningen/Oversikt---Hoyhastighetsbaner/

Reading myself a little bit up on the topic, I understand even less. Even the much publicized argument that Oslo-Kristiansand-Stavanger has the highest number of passangers, is highly dubious. Yes, that O-K-S line will have 20 % higher number of passangers than Oslo-Tynset-Trondheim, but O-K-S will also have more short-distance travel. Hence the total train occupancy (passenger-km?), as well as the income, is higher on O-T-T, ref. section 8.2.5 in part 1 of the report.

I fail to see any factual backing in the report for recommending to build O-K-S first, but perhaps there has been some political influence or local patriotism in play?

In any case, it seems like this report will be put in some drawer for the next few decades....

This reply is not directly concerning the railway/HSR, and might not be the appropriate arena for a debate. So if that's not your thing, please just disregard my reply.



I think it's wrong to make decisions for the future based on what is, rather than what can be. I don't see any obvious reason for Oslo to be the base for everything besides the obvious fact that it is the capital. I can understand why the capital would like to keep it this way, but central power should understand and respect that people elsewhere doesn't necessarily want this. I believe the west coast of Norway has a certain bond in this aspect, and would like to be more connected without having to go about Oslo for everything.

You might argue that these kinds of values should be kept aside when it's a question of prosperity. However I think we can all agree on that the question is what do we really want from this prosperity? If all we do is to chase prosperity it self, we lose the initial purposes that lies behind this collective chase that is society. Also, considering all the production and value creation that comes from this area, I think it's only fair to ask for such a thing.

And who knows, maybe it will lead to something we can all benefit from. Some things are just too theoretic to be conclusive. You never know what you'll get. These reports does not take that into account, and inevitably ends up blurring the bigger picture. If societies were to be built on these practices we'd still be living in the mud, dwelling on whether or not we should get up and do something about it, because it was simply too inconclusive to tell.Besides the fact that Oslo is the capital, it has the highest number of inhabitants per m2. anyways, the route Stavanger - Haygesund - Bergen is already well served with acceptable journey time. The Journey shouldn't take more than 3,5 hours door to door. You can't justify the money spent on building a HSR line to save maybe one hour at best on this line.

What are you going to do in Stavanger? The Vestlands traffic is mostly direct towards us, like it or not.

I personally don't care much about a HSR going anywhere. I mean, I support it and all.. but it's going to take too long to get it finished in order for me to be stoked about it, and like you said.. what the heck am I supposed to do in Stavanger? The same goes for Oslo, btw. I would probably use the train once or twice a year.

This reply is not directly concerning the railway/HSR, and might not be the appropriate arena for a debate. So if that's not your thing, please just disregard my reply.



I think it's wrong to make decisions for the future based on what is, rather than what can be. I don't see any obvious reason for Oslo to be the base for everything besides the obvious fact that it is the capital. I can understand why the capital would like to keep it this way, but central power should understand and respect that people elsewhere doesn't necessarily want this. I believe the west coast of Norway has a certain bond in this aspect, and would like to be more connected without having to go about Oslo for everything.

You might argue that these kinds of values should be kept aside when it's a question of prosperity. However I think we can all agree on that the question is what do we really want from this prosperity? If all we do is to chase prosperity it self, we lose the initial purposes that lies behind this collective chase that is society. Also, considering all the production and value creation that comes from this area, I think it's only fair to ask for such a thing.

And who knows, maybe it will lead to something we can all benefit from. Some things are just too theoretic to be conclusive. You never know what you'll get. These reports does not take that into account, and inevitably ends up blurring the bigger picture. If societies were to be built on these practices we'd still be living in the mud, dwelling on whether or not we should get up and do something about it, because it was simply too inconclusive to tell.

You should know I mostly am teasing Mr CityofRain. I think that it would be natural to have a railroad connecting Stavanger and Bergen, but I think this report shows that HSR may not be the solution for this stretch. Intercity with more stops underway, may prove to serve the Western/South-Western parts of this country with higher benefits. Or HSR, when the rest of the network is already finished, set, tested and proved.

Besides the fact that Oslo is the capital, it has the highest number of inhabitants per m2. anyways, the route Stavanger - Haygesund - Bergen is already well served with acceptable journey time. The Journey shouldn't take more than 3,5 hours door to door. You can't justify the money spent on building a HSR line to save maybe one hour at best on this line.

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to here? The train today will take between 14 and 16 hours. By car (if you have one), it'll take you a minimum of 4 hours, if you are lucky with the ferries. And by boat (hurtigbåten), if it's not cancelled or delayed by the weather, will take a little over 4 hours. None of these alternatives are particularly comfortable or in any case environmental friendly either.

I'm not going to argue with you that Oslo definitely is the most frequented destination in Norway. But technically speaking, it's not true that it has the highest number of inhabitants per km2 - That is in fact Stavanger, with a density of 1,781/km2 vs 1,346/km2 in Oslo. (Not trying to imply anything, just saying).

You should know I mostly am teasing Mr CityofRain. I think that it would be natural to have a railroad connecting Stavanger and Bergen, but I think this report shows that HSR may not be the solution for this stretch. Intercity with more stops underway, may prove to serve the Western/South-Western parts of this country with higher benefits. Or HSR, when the rest of the network is already finished, set, tested and proved.This might be completely true. I don't know, to be honest. My comment was actually more directed at the general perception it seems that a lot of people from the Oslo area seems to have on these things. It sometimes feels like a big brother with a little brother complex as a result of the unions with Denmark and Sweden. But the essence of what I was trying to say was that we lack political will, and decisions made on gut feelings rather than these narrow reports that kills all political enthusiasm. Some things that are logic will not always make the most sense. You can't put everything into a report backed by hard facts. Just doesn't work.

I'm sorry if I sound hostile - I don't mean to step on anyone's toes!

But technically speaking, it's not true that it has the highest number of inhabitants per km2 - That is in fact Stavanger, with a density of 1,781/km2 vs 1,346/km2 in Oslo. (Not trying to imply anything, just saying).

Well that depends on if you are counting the actual city or the municipality.

Number of people per square km is really not a very good measurement of anything in this context really...

If this was a question of the highest population, and not its density. I'm pretty sure you all would want to use the number of the municipality. But of course you are right - but then again, what is the city and what is not? Stavanger's municipality border lines are not that big, and in direct contact with others, such as Sandnes. So if we disregard the municipality border lines and see the cities as a whole, Stavanger and its surrounding surpass Trondheim in size and population. One angles the facts as it suits, I guess.

EDIT: Btw sorry folks for sidetracking this thread! I rest my case :)

If this was a question of the highest population, and not its density. I'm pretty sure you all would want to use the number of the municipality. But of course you are right - but then again, what is the city and what is not? )

The urban area is usually consider to be the city. The municipality border is just an artificial line without much meaning in this context.

KVU for all stretches within Oslo InterCity-area to be published next Thursday: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Prosjekter/Inter-City-/Konseptvalgutredning-KVU/KVU-for-intercity-strekningene-Datoen-er-16-februar/

Hopefully, we can sonn start marking up a date for the completition of this eternal project...

Found this in an old book on highway and railway building (1941), quite different than what happening in Bjørvika today...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lOVI8xpc5lQ/TzRCAR0RpNI/AAAAAAAAA-M/3DaeTiyAkjs/w500-h375-k/IMG_0581.JPG

- Interiørarkitekten må ha vært fargeblind (http://www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/--Interiorarkitekten-ma-ha-vart-fargeblind-2654184.html)

Watch the video! :lol: :nuts:

The Oslo - Bergen - Stavanger over Haukeli connection should be build based on one simple fact:
The money made in order to build the entire network, and much much more comes from this region.
Hordaland and Rogaland makes up such a huge amount of Norway's gdp in comparison to our population (About 36-38% of the gdp, from a population of less than 20% of total), that the region deserves a huge investment even if it does not have a population high enough today to justify the construction.
In fact, you should double the traffic volume just based on economic output (who deserves what), and add for future population growth, which is very high in this region.

My last point is that the cost here all accounts for using norwegian manual labor. In a country where we don't have enough workers to supply our own oilindustry northwards, it is rediculous if we don't take in cheap labor from a country like Spain, Italy or Greece, pay them wages according to their own national tarifs, and then transport them back home. It would be like working offshore, or being in the army. It just annoys the hell out of me when I hear all the labor unions telling us that we cannot do this. Because we can! We just have to change some laws or rules...

Rant out.

- Interiørarkitekten må ha vært fargeblind (http://www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/--Interiorarkitekten-ma-ha-vart-fargeblind-2654184.html)

Watch the video! :lol: :nuts:

I feel sorry for you having such a retarded mayor...

I feel sorry for you having such a retarded mayor...

Yes, is she drunk or something? The interior looks just like the one from the new trains...

Very exciting weeks ahead: On thursday we will hopefully get a prioritized list of which rail sections of the IC Triangle should be expanded to double rail track first, and which train line alignments are preferred.

On February 29 the proposal for "Nasjonal TransportPlan 2014-2029" will be published :yes:

Will be very interesting to see which rail and road projects that are prioritized and when they will be built! I am hoping for a very ambitious transport plan that prioritizes public transport even more than today.



KVU for all stretches within Oslo InterCity-area to be published next Thursday: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Prosjekter/Inter-City-/Konseptvalgutredning-KVU/KVU-for-intercity-strekningene-Datoen-er-16-februar/

Hopefully, we can sonn start marking up a date for the completition of this eternal project...

One of the new Flirt trainsets derailed in Vestfold right now :eek:

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2012/02/15/1329301667077_517.jpg

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10069414

It was a test run, and 10 people were present in the train. The article says multiple people has been hurt.

WTF? :shocked: What caused it?

The article has been corrected, there were five people present in the train. Two are reported hurt.

It's still not clear Tin_Can, but apparently it derailed and crashed into a cliff wall.

Good start:nuts:

I feel sorry for you having such a retarded mayor...

I have no idea how we managed to elect that woman.. :lol:

There are pretty massive damages to the train set. Pretty incredible to see it so destroyed without even have been in traffic:

http://ap.mnocdn.no/incoming/article6762952.ece/ALTERNATES/w780c169/sya8186e.jpg?updated=150220121358

The accident is said to have occured by a track switch. 3 out of 5 carts derailed, and destroyed 200 meters of railroad on Vestfoldbanen. The line between Holm-Nykirke is currently loaded with construction as the line is realigned and expanded for two-way rails. This may very well also be part of the cause.

Derailing accidents in Norway not caused by weather has for the last years been caused by insufficient maintainance on either railroads (NSB/Brynsbakken 2010) or trains (SJ/Kongsvinger 2010), or human failure (Cargonet/Sydhavna 2010) so it will be interesting to see what was the cause here. I think we can rule out the weather.

Intercity-triangle can be planned and built in 10 years, according to JBV. The most opitimal solution is 13 years, though. Total cost is estimated at 130 bio NOK for all three stretches, a total of 230 km. The plan is four trains per hour each way, with optimal speeds of up to 250 km/h on almost all lines.

Link to JBV and all the reports: http://www.jernbaneverket.no/no/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/2012/InterCity-kan-planlegges-og-bygges-pa-ti-ar/


The rest is up to the politicians, I guess...

Sounds good, much more realistic than High-Speed Rail and actually feasible. I just hope whining about spending so much money on Oslo (Hi, City of Rain! ;) ) will derail the whole thing. If people really do want HSR this needs to get done first anyway.

Now, this isn' t mostly an Oslo-project, but more of a project to ensure people can live in cities 100 km outside of the city, while still commuting to the Oslo business-market. The gainers here are people in Østfold, Vestfold (/Telemark) and Oppland/Hedmark, neither bordering Oslo at all. More correctly it's an Østlandet-project, and Østlandet is region consistening of just above half of the Norwegian population, and almost 3/4ths of the population growth.

I want to see the face on that Bergen mayor if this goes through :D

and almost 3/4ths of the population growth.

And is likely to get 9/10 of the population growth unless the politicians realise that Norways borders don't start at Langfjella and Dovrefjell.

^^actually, it should be "almost 2/3rds". And I would certainly applaud any sign showing politicians on State level starting to realize the cost of more than 1% yearly population growth in this country. The tåkeprat is only getting worse, as consequenses of being the fastest growing country in Europe appears in new forms every day.

I'm a bit skeptical to the amount of stations:

http://www.jernbaneverket.no/PageFiles/17895/IC%20ILL%20520.jpg?epslanguage=no

Do we really need a station in Stange? Or Skoppum? Or Råde? All this does is slow the trains down without adding any significant number of passengers.

Skoppum is the local station for Horten.

Stokke, Råde, Tangen and Stange is however useless. Sande is also on the border to useless.

Skoppum is the local station for Horten.

Stokke, Råde, Tangen and Stange is however useless. Sande is also on the border to useless.

Oslo is useless too. It is just there to waste the oil and gass money with rediculous amounts of bureocracy. Besides, its the gay capitol of europe...

^^ You must be from Bergen. Lol :lol:

I could potentially live at Stange if I had a job around Oslo S and it would take me 50 minutes to get there. That's not much more than with bike/subway today inside Oslo. I think it's the right way to do it; have stations before people. Isn't that typically how many towns have come to be, like Lillestrøm, which Bannor must have confused with Oslo? :lol:

I think we would see rapid development around the less-than-an-hour-away stations. Oslo is expected to grow with a couple hundred thousand, without touching the forests or the parks, and with every attempt at something higher than 5 floors being cut down? Open up Stange, I would say (but plan it properly)

Stange is fairly close to Hamar though, so you could make the argument it would be better to get everyone on there. Then again how much time do you actually lose by making one or two stops extra? And as bookings says, the places with stations will probably see increased growth due to the expanded job market.

I really like the plan in itself, and it is good they are very determined to get it done quickly. This gives us an opportunity to build some great new urban areas focused around the train stations, if the politicians seize this opportunity. With (hopefully) a large increase in activity they can provide a very good basis for some great, lively centres across the region.

The stretch between Tangen and Brummundal is only 35 km, and yet it could get as many as 4 stations. With acceleration, stopping and waiting time per station that's quite a bit of extra time. The stretch between Skøyen and Asker is roughly 35 km, and intercity trains only stop at a total of 4 stations.

Could it really be defended that such a sparsely populated area should have the same station density as one of the most populated areas in the country?

A better solution would be to have one intercity station in Hamar, and to run local feeder trains on the old track between Tangen and Brummundal.

Well, there might be just one station between Eidsvoll and Hamar, but I'm pretty sure not all trains will stop at all stations (like Tangen and Stange). If you just have feeder trains for these stations, the whole point is lost. Anyway, this map is probably not complete, places like Jessheim and Kløfta should be there. It's not a big deal; express-trains run like hell between Lillehammer-Hamar-Oslo, and others stop more often. 4 trains per hour should be enough for 2 express ones and 2 "slow" ones. At a place like Tangen, that would at least mean one train per hour, which is as good (or bad) as commuters on the Gjøvik-line get today. And people still use that one (I've done, for a long, dreadful year)

If they could also extend the Gjøvik-line up to Lillehammer, more cargo could be put on this.

But my point is that more stations should not be a problem, but they need to make it possible to run through them quite fast.

Everybody realize the map just shows the current stations, right? We can change it, but I guess that is a political question.

And Bookings, how can the train stop at both OSL and Jessheim?:lol: This stretch is also already completed.

I could potentially live at Stange if I had a job around Oslo S and it would take me 50 minutes to get there. That's not much more than with bike/subway today inside Oslo. I think it's the right way to do it; have stations before people. Isn't that typically how many towns have come to be, like Lillestrøm, which Bannor must have confused with Oslo? :lol:

I think we would see rapid development around the less-than-an-hour-away stations. Oslo is expected to grow with a couple hundred thousand, without touching the forests or the parks, and with every attempt at something higher than 5 floors being cut down? Open up Stange, I would say (but plan it properly)
Yeah, Norway certainly needs policies that encourages sprawl ... That's the thing the country have lacked.