Somehow, we need to ask the Mayor to remind DPW and DMD of his sustainability and livability goals and implore them to act boldly as it relates to our roadway infrastructure.

When I say act boldly, I mean making real changes that improve walkablity, sustainability and encourage the creation of place. Instead of narrowing streets, widening sidewalks, adding bump-outs and trees, we seem to be content with rebuilding streets to their exact same auto-centric proportions. In some cases we even continue to widen and add additional lanes. East Washington Street and the soon to be reconstructed West 38th Street are good examples of this business as usual mentality.

On West 38th, millions are being spent to reconstruct the roadway and sidewalks yet the basic dimensions of the roadway are being kept the same while the narrow sidewalk is being tacked right onto the edge of the roadway with no tree lawn. The road will continue to be 6 to 9 lanes wide with wide turning radius and long cross-walks.

We should start considering more creative ideas like the conversion of these wide arterials through our under-performing suburban shopping areas into multi-way boulevards. The following configuration would allow for the efficient movement of traffic as well as pedestrian friendly, urban infill at the street frontage.

Possible Multi-way Boulevard Configuration
Two travel lanes in either direction with a center median/turn lane. One local road on each side w/on-street parking separated from the travel lanes by a median. A wide sidewalk (10'+) on each side, next to the on-street parking. This would need to be accompanied by an overlay zoning district that would require new buildings to be built up to the sidewalk.

Any thoughts?

Have you considered... running for mayor?

I'm pretty sure I've commented here several times about my frustration with the W. 38th Street project, but in case anyone forgot... it's TERRIBLE!!!!!!!!!! In many places, there are existing sidewalks that they will tear up and move right next to the curb, which isn't moving. But DPW's response to why they are rebuilding them next to the curb: wait for it... Ok, here it is: "On the West 38th Street project, we were unable to offset the sidewalks from the curbline because of insufficient right of way. It was cost prohibitive to purchase additional right of way for this project."

Is it possible that they think the sidewalks that were built years ago aren't already in the right-of-way? Not likely since the plans for the project clearly show that existing right-of-way would allow the sidewalks to be offset ten or more feet from the curb everywhere along the project.

Perhaps the person who replied to my e-mail to the mayor's office hasn't seen the plans and was simply repeating what someone told them to, and the real answer is that DPW prefers to build sidewalks directly adjacent to the curb. Why would they prefer that you ask? I'm not sure, but I'd bet you dollars to donut holes that you won't ever find the people making these decisions at DPW walking on these sidewalks. Of course, that would only explain why they might not understand why these sidewalks will be unattractive and seldom used, but doesn't explain why they actually prefer them to be built curbside. Maybe it's slightly cheaper to pour the sidewalk and curb at the same time since it would presumably reduce the amount of framing required. And if you leave a "separation zone" between the sidewalk and curb, somebody might want to plant trees there, which will at some point drop leaves into the street, which would probably require more street sweeping than necessary for the barren street corridor that DPW prefers.

Other possible reasons:

It doesn't take any effort to draw the plans and survey the corridor when you don't make an effort to make use of the full extent of the right-of-way?

DPW believes that pedestrians inhibit vehicular traffic flow and thus they design the sidewalk to be as unattractive as possible to discourage pedestrians, because more pedestrians might mean more people trying to cross streets, which might require cars to slow down or stop occasionally when they wouldn't otherwise need to if no pedestrians were present?

DPW wants to make sure that prostitutes, drug dealers, and hitchhikers can stand as close to passing traffic as possible?

DPW has a stimulus plan to boost the city's economy by hiring contractors to demolish and rebuild sidewalks that are in great condition?

DPW actually just hates pedestrians?

Ha ha ha! Of course, nobody believes any of these crazy things about DPW. Surely none of these could be the real reasons for their decision to completely disregard the Multi-Modal Design Guidelines. Umm, so I guess I'm just left to wonder: what is the real reason? Any thoughts on that?

One of the ideas was self-guided iPod architectural tours. I decided that was one I could take on myself. Well, actually I couldn't, and bringing it to fruition took about two years, but a site with the initial tour is finally done and you can see it here:

http://www.walkindianapolis.com/

Please check it out. But please don't blog about it or anything yet. Consider it embargoed for publicizing until sometime in January when we do a press release around it.

Thanks for bringing this up, Aaron. Any ideas what happened to the "Dierdorf" in Browning Day Mullins...? I somehow don't imagine that's a typo.

Here's an interesting article out of MSP talking about that city's problems In addition to racial segregation and a growing class divided, they are also seeing the central cities of both Minneapolis and St. Paul get poorer.

http://www.minnpost.com/steveberg/2010/12/20/24365/census_2010_can_a_metro_area_so_sharply_divided_by_income_race_and_geography_continue_to_thrive_on_the_national_stage

Hey, I wanted to give you a preview of a project that I've been working on for, well, way too long. Way back in 2007 when I gave that Pecha Kucha presentation of "15 Quick, Easy, and Cheap Ways to Make a Big Urban Design Impact in Indianapolis"

http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/02/03/pecha-kucha-night/ (if you haven't seen it)

One of the ideas was self-guided iPod architectural tours. I decided that was one I could take on myself. Well, actually I couldn't, and bringing it to fruition took about two years, but a site with the initial tour is finally done and you can see it here:

http://www.walkindianapolis.com/

Please check it out. But please don't blog about it or anything yet. Consider it embargoed for publicizing until sometime in January when we do a press release around it.

Thats a fantastic website. Attractively laid out, and simple to read.

Thanks cailes. And thanks for the typo correction, Dirt.

2010 Census?

Has anyone seen the just released census data? Just curious how Indy stacked up. I know living here in Austin TX, we might have passed Indy in size now. I knew a year or so ago we were catching up fast.

I havent seen CITY info, but it appears Indiana was one of the biggest gainers in population in the context of the midwest. Thats not saying a lot compared to how other states grew.

Check aaron's website for a good write up. www.urbanophile.com

CDC, the reason that the northeast corridor makes a lot of sense is that you can easily deploy rail along existing rail right-of-way, use diesel multiple units (w/no catenery) acquire large tracks of land for park and ride lots that can transition to TODs all while improving regional mobility. I am certainly frustrated that the plan now calls for BRT instead of LRT along Washington St. but I think I understand why it happened. LRT can cost 50 plus million per mile while AGT can cost over 70 million a mile. A Regional Rail line that uses DMUs will be very cheap per mile. Essentially, DMU's are like really efficient buses on rail. Unlike BRT however, DMU's are real trains and they actually have land-use benefits. Unfortunately, the more expensive portion of the plan (LRT along Washington Street) got squeezed out for the less expensive, more regionally impactful parts of the plan. It is my hope and I believe the hope of the Indy Connect planners that once the trains start going in, the citizens of Indy will fall in love and ask for more. The Nickel Plate, Northeast Corridor line should be a slam dunk.

It may be the cheapest route to rail, but that is the only way the Northeast Corridor "makes sense". Otherwise:

It will not significantly affect congestion on the I-69/I-465/I-70 route.

It will lead to increased development in exurban/suburban areas because it will make longer combined car/train commutes possible.

It will do nothing for redevelopment in the vast majority of Indianapolis' already-dense inner-city neighborhoods.

It won't serve anyone except commuting suburbanites well, and it won't provide a rail "spine" for better urban bus service.

It won't serve out-of-town visitors because it doesn't go anywhere that visitors want to go, except possibly the State Fairgrounds.

I say again: if "cheap" is key, then it would be cheaper by far to pave and signalize the Nickel Plate and use it as a BRT-only busway. If it garners great ridership in time, then the rails could be used.

After all...if buses are good enough for commuters in the "old city", they're good enough for commuters from the suburbs.

I'll say it again: I love lightrail, I rode the MAX in Portland every day for a year. I also rode the Philly subways often for ten years, but during that time I used the bus system much more frequently, and I think Indy should invest in a state of the art fantastic bus system BEFORE spending anything on rail.

Hey, I wanted to give you a preview of a project that I've been working on for, well, way too long. Way back in 2007 when I gave that Pecha Kucha presentation of "15 Quick, Easy, and Cheap Ways to Make a Big Urban Design Impact in Indianapolis"

http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/02/03/pecha-kucha-night/ (if you haven't seen it)

One of the ideas was self-guided iPod architectural tours. I decided that was one I could take on myself. Well, actually I couldn't, and bringing it to fruition took about two years, but a site with the initial tour is finally done and you can see it here:

http://www.walkindianapolis.com/

Please check it out. But please don't blog about it or anything yet. Consider it embargoed for publicizing until sometime in January when we do a press release around it.


Nice work, Aaron. This is definitely something my friends and I will be interested in checking out.

There is a lot more basic infrastructure that needs upgraded along with the planned upgrades in indyconnect. Union station. A downtown bus station. Freight rail belt. There are other pieces that not part of the glitz of indyconnect. That all said I'm not really thrilled about the NE corridor. If it helps spur rehab of places like the martindale area etc... Then it will be worth championing those parts. Progress doesn't come at the flip of a coin as much as we'd like it too.

Round_Rock, I do have Census data on my blog here:

http://www.urbanophile.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/census2010-results.xls

Here's my post discussing the results:

http://www.urbanophile.com/2010/12/21/census-2010-national-and-state-results-released/

Indiana did better than Illinois and such, but did not grow as fast as Minnesota.

I drew up a model in SketchUp a few days ago based on the idea of putting a square at the center of Fountain Square. I know its pie-in-the-sky with the fountain being installed in its current location so recently. In any case, I still think it makes sense. In the model, I added a square greenspace with the fountain at its center, re-aligned Prospect Street, widened sidewalks removed two travel lanes on Virginia Avenue (For those of you who will instinctively say this can't be done, Mass Ave. only has two travel lanes) and added street trees. A streetscape project like this would make Fountain Square one of the best urban places in the city. What's more, as far as I can tell, this would be almost painless… No buildings would need to be torn down and very little if any land would need to be acquired.

Existing Conditions:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5167/5279940828_5a013cbbb5.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279940828/)
Fountain Square Google Earth without Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279940828/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Fountain Square:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5042/5279941116_3fa8b505f6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279941116/)
Fountain Square Google Earth with Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279941116/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Isometric View:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5288/5279941434_47e2301368.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279941434/)
Fountain_Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279941434/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

View of Virginia Avenue Looking Southeast with Widened Sidewalks and Street Trees
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5250/5279336511_a18d1f3494.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279336511/) Fountain_Square 5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279336511/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Looks nice!

I don't really want to use the term round-a-bout, but I really wish the fountain was centered at the intersection and a miniature "momument circle" could have been created also allowing public space and calmed traffic...

I think Indy should invest in a state of the art fantastic bus system BEFORE spending anything on rail.

i agree with you wholeheartedly.

i agree with you wholeheartedly.

I don't understand why we can't have a "both-and", "all of the above" attitude when it comes to complex issues like regional mobility. We should use every tool in our tool box. The fact is, some technologies and modes of transportation are better in different circumstances. In order to have land use benefits, you need a fixed guideway to make the line visible and permanent. It is possible to get land-use benefits from BRT, the only problem is that in order to do so, you end up spending just as much as if you had put down rail. Rail based vehicles last longer, are more efficient and get better ridership than their rubber-tire counterparts. The Northeast Corridor has the highest ridership projections, the most congestion and is a no-brainer. There will be many stops in Marion County not to mention a really cool reuse opportunity at Union Station. In addition, the DMU technology is really cool. Check out the Semens Desiro and Bombardier Talent Trains.

There is no doubt in my mind, that Marion County will benefit more than any other county from regional rail. It will have the highest number of stops and the most important stop at Union Station. I don't think you need to worry about thousands of McMansions being built in Hamilton County as a result of this. You will see land-use benefits a quarter to a half mile out from each of the stations.

Desiro Train:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2586635898_b3439159a6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/2586635898/)
1383651892_f1fd0ea122[1] (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/2586635898/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Talent Train:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/2585800113_35ec38c2e3.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/2585800113/)
2247719548_3a43579b7e[1] (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/2585800113/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Hoss: Sketch-up looks good. Have you by any chance seen the designs Southeast Neighborhood Development (SEND) has put together for their version of the "square"? There is no square in the center of the traffic loop -- but the people gathering place is on the West / SW side of Virginia Avenue - where a plaza area extends into the area in the eastern part of the parking lot just north of the former Dino's Vino.

They've applied for Transportation Enhancement grants to help pay for it - but have only received enough so far to get the current fountain and its island completed. Another fountain will be on the SW plaza. As the Cultural Trail is completed down to the square - it would be nice if they could use some of those funds to help complete at least part of the future plaza plans. Hopefully with the cultural trail, there will be plenty of new trees going in to help add some of the green as you are showing.

Hoss: Sketch-up looks good. Have you by any chance seen the designs Southeast Neighborhood Development (SEND) has put together for their version of the "square"? There is no square in the center of the traffic loop -- but the people gathering place is on the West / SW side of Virginia Avenue - where a plaza area extends into the area in the eastern part of the parking lot just north of the former Dino's Vino.

They've applied for Transportation Enhancement grants to help pay for it - but have only received enough so far to get the current fountain and its island completed. Another fountain will be on the SW plaza. As the Cultural Trail is completed down to the square - it would be nice if they could use some of those funds to help complete at least part of the future plaza plans. Hopefully with the cultural trail, there will be plenty of new trees going in to help add some of the green as you are showing.

I have.

Ya know what, I only hope that the NE corridor DMU's look similar to what you posted hoss. Those are non-FRA approved type, and all the american made approved ones, at least that Im familiar with, look more like freight train engines than a sleek looking piece like that. LOL

picky I know, but those details matter.

http://www.sonomamarintrain.org/userfiles/file/Press%20release%20--%20vehicle%20contract.pdf

What do you think of this DMU ^^ recently purchased in Sonoma - Marin Counties, California? The price is very good also.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20101223/NEWS18/12230384/Leaders-business-vow-make-mass-transit-plan-succeed?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|IndyStar.com|p

Here's the story from this morning's Star about how the local business and political leaders are now planning to work together to support the regional transit plan --- but will push back a referendum on funding for the plan until November 2012.

Ya know what, I only hope that the NE corridor DMU's look similar to what you posted hoss. Those are non-FRA approved type, and all the american made approved ones, at least that Im familiar with, look more like freight train engines than a sleek looking piece like that. LOL

picky I know, but those details matter.

The great thing is that Colorado Railcar which made the FRA compatible trains has gone out of business. I don't think we could go with one of those ugly trains even if we wanted. The Nickel Plate won't have mixed freight and passenger traffic and wouldn't need FRA compatibility anyway.

It wouldnt need FRA compliance for most of the route, but what about when the route travels through the downtown CSX owned area? Unless a dedicated lane of tracks is layed, which is feasible, it would need FRA compliance. Looking at google aerials, it appears that there is a way to get it done in a fashion that could skirt FRA plans. Not to mention, eventually (and Ive been told from pretty high on up that this is included in the long range plan) the rehab of the freight beltway will be completed, and all this talk will be rendered moot.

I just hope that it doesnt become an issue in the short term

Curt: Sorry to bug you --- but was just wondering if you had a chance to look at the vehicle Sumitoma Corporation of America is making for Sonoma - Marin Counties, shown in the link a few posts above. To me it looks very excellent. Its sleek looking, FRA compliant, made in the USA (Illinois), exceeds current emissions requirements (which must be pretty good considering they are planned to be used in California), and, as I said above -- comes in at a pretty good price compared to its competitors.

I guess since it is planned to be used for a 70 mile long corridor in California, it might have slghtly different performance needs, compared to ours. I would think our routing would have more frequent stops, as the majority of the proposed corridor through greater Indy is in developed, urbanized areas. Still it looks great, and its good to see how the different technologies are coming together - beginning to merge the differences between light rail and commuter rail with these DMU trains.

The covered walkway between the new expanded area of the Convention Center and the Crown Plaza Hotel is under construction. Also, the connector from the Artsgarden to PNC Plaza / Hyatt just received its city approval for construction:

http://www.ibj.com/fourth-artsgarden-walkway-gets-final-ok/PARAMS/article/24223

The covered walkway between the new expanded area of the Convention Center and the Crown Plaza Hotel is under construction. Also, the connector from the Artsgarden to PNC Plaza / Hyatt just received its city approval for construction:

http://www.ibj.com/fourth-artsgarden-walkway-gets-final-ok/PARAMS/article/24223

Finally! Great news.

Another missed opportunity: the MLK gateway at I-65. It's every bit as bad as I feared from the renderings, based on what I could see that wasn't snow covered. Without any prompting from my, my brother asked, "What's with the Native American installation?" as we drove through it. Not only are the motifs Native American in appearance (or at best Sumerian/cuneiform), the pillars recall totem poles. When the snow melts, will the pedestrian design be as bad as we saw the renderings previously posted here?

Hey people, I have a question. I was driving south on I-465 on the westside I think between 38th and 16th streets and saw to the east a building under construction. It seemed to be of decent height so far. I have not seen or heard anything on this yet, does anyone know what this is/will be? Sorry if this has been discussed before, I should get on this thread more often.

A very sad story:
http://www.wthr.com/story/13736471/pedestrian-death-highlights-citys-need-for-sidewalks

I find it a little bit specious that the title of the story is "pedestrian death highlights city's need for sidewalks", but the story then illustrates that where there are sidewalks you might not know it because they are buried under snow and ice. Yes, we need sidewalks at this location and so many others. But what's more to blame in this woman's death? The lack of sidewalks, or the lack of cleared sidewalks? If there were a sidewalk here, would this lady have been able to use it today, or would she still have been walking in the street because the sidewalk wasn't cleared by the adjacent property owner? Unfortunately, I would wager on the latter, which leads to two major problems: 1) the local culture needs to change, which requires local leadership to step up to stress how important it is that sidewalks be cleared promptly, and 2) sidewalks must be built, but they shouldn't be built right next to the curb where they become depositories for all the compacted thick, heavy snow and ice that gets plowed from the street.

I drew up a model in SketchUp a few days ago based on the idea of putting a square at the center of Fountain Square.

Existing Conditions:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5167/5279940828_5a013cbbb5.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279940828/)
Fountain Square Google Earth without Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279940828/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Fountain Square:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5042/5279941116_3fa8b505f6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279941116/)
Fountain Square Google Earth with Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5279941116/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr


Pretty cool! I was disappointed to see that the new statue configuration resulted in more pavement in the intersection than the old statue. For the relatively small amount of vehicular traffic that passes through the intersection, it's always seemed like a much more challenging pedestrian environment than it should be. Send it to SEND and the Mayor's Office.

Another missed opportunity: the MLK gateway at I-65. It's every bit as bad as I feared from the renderings, based on what I could see that wasn't snow covered. Without any prompting from my, my brother asked, "What's with the Native American installation?" as we drove through it. Not only are the motifs Native American in appearance (or at best Sumerian/cuneiform), the pillars recall totem poles. When the snow melts, will the pedestrian design be as bad as we saw the renderings previously posted here?

I do recall seeing some renderings that had totem pole-like structures, but didn't think too much of it. I'm going to have to check this out. Isn't this project supposed to be dedicated to MLK and other historic black leaders? Is there a totem pole lobby that's gained a foothold in Indy? Didn't they install a bunch of totem poles at one of the interchanges along I-70 as part of the big spruce up?

Curt: Sorry to bug you --- but was just wondering if you had a chance to look at the vehicle Sumitoma Corporation of America is making for Sonoma - Marin Counties, shown in the link a few posts above. To me it looks very excellent. Its sleek looking, FRA compliant, made in the USA (Illinois), exceeds current emissions requirements (which must be pretty good considering they are planned to be used in California), and, as I said above -- comes in at a pretty good price compared to its competitors.

I guess since it is planned to be used for a 70 mile long corridor in California, it might have slghtly different performance needs, compared to ours. I would think our routing would have more frequent stops, as the majority of the proposed corridor through greater Indy is in developed, urbanized areas. Still it looks great, and its good to see how the different technologies are coming together - beginning to merge the differences between light rail and commuter rail with these DMU trains.

Actually, I thought it looked pretty good! I havent dug into the company or vehicle to know much about it, but it looks better than a Colorado Railcar one. LOL

ALl I know about SMART is that they are facing funding challenges from the highway people in the same corridor trying to take money away and widen the highway along which a portion of this rail line will run, who in turn are trying to take some of the bike/ped path money. Again, more highways trying to take money from alternative modes of transportation...

A very sad story:
http://www.wthr.com/story/13736471/pedestrian-death-highlights-citys-need-for-sidewalks

I find it a little bit specious that the title of the story is "pedestrian death highlights city's need for sidewalks", but the story then illustrates that where there are sidewalks you might not know it because they are buried under snow and ice. Yes, we need sidewalks at this location and so many others. But what's more to blame in this woman's death? The lack of sidewalks, or the lack of cleared sidewalks? If there were a sidewalk here, would this lady have been able to use it today, or would she still have been walking in the street because the sidewalk wasn't cleared by the adjacent property owner? Unfortunately, I would wager on the latter, which leads to two major problems: 1) the local culture needs to change, which requires local leadership to step up to stress how important it is that sidewalks be cleared promptly, and 2) sidewalks must be built, but they shouldn't be built right next to the curb where they become depositories for all the compacted thick, heavy snow and ice that gets plowed from the street.

This is one of the biggest issues in Indy in its policy of putting sidewalks flush with the street. On those streets that do get plowed - which doesn't appear to be most of them - the plows deposit the snow on the sidewalk, which then freezes into a huge icy mass that's difficult to remove. I've even seen this downtown. Plus, there doesn't seem to be a strong tradition of shoveling sidewalks in front of your building in Indy anyway.

Putting in a landscaped buffer area would also help with this problem.

Cheers, Aaron.

I feel like every year we are here complaining about the failure of businesses and homeowners failing to shovel. It would be nice to see some pressure from the city on this. But by the time we can get them to care about that will be about the same time as wide spread narrowing of streets will happen...

Merry Christmas everyone. At least we have the cultural trail, Georgia St and indyconnect to consider as progress this year.

^^ staying positive!

Much as we like to criticize it, suburban Indianapolis is the ONLY reason why the state of Indiana did not lose a House seat. Virtually all of the growth in the state is due to Hamilton, Hendricks, and Johnson Counties.

ONLY reason?? I disagree. It'll be interesting to see how the different counties gained their population -- but I would bet that a good chunk of the new population in those surrrounding counties is people moving from Marion County out into them.

To a certain extent - if the outer counties are getting a good chunk of their growth from other nearby counties - and primarily from the central core of Marion County, it is kind of like just eating your own to stay healthy - while hurting the core. Marion County gets credit for helping to "feed" the outer counties and also for attracting new people into the region. While Marion County may only see a population growth of 60,000 or so for the decade (it may be more - I haven't tried to look at the latest estimates) - it has been the main county for attracting immigrants and helping to make sure that the Central Indiana region is growing by a good 250,000 people or so.

Which counties are seeing the most growth coming in from outside of Central Indiana? That county or those counties are the ones that are helping the region grow. It'll be a few more months before that info becomes available - but when we look at where the net domestic immigration is occurring - I would think there would be a good number of new people moving into Marion County - along with those counties mentioned above.

And --- there are other areas in the state that are seeing growth --- ie NW Indiana, around Ft. Wayne, the Bloomington and Lafayette regions, etc.

ONLY reason?? I disagree. It'll be interesting to see how the different counties gained their population -- but I would bet that a good chunk of the new population in those surrrounding counties is people moving from Marion County out into them.


And --- there are other areas in the state that are seeing growth --- ie NW Indiana, around Ft. Wayne, the Bloomington and Lafayette regions, etc.

So you are guessing that it is Marion County attracting all the new people who then move out to the suburban counties in a very short period of time? Doubtful.

Those other areas of the state you mentioned are growing, but at a much slower pace than Central Indiana. This state will continue to rely on Greater Indianapolis for the bulk of its economic and population growth.

No I'm not guessing that people move into Indianapolis and then very quickly move out into suburban counties. I am guessing that many people move into Indianapolis from other areas - and then OTHER people from Marion County move out into suburban counties.

And yes, I agree with what you said about Central Indiana being the area of the state responsible for most of its growth. I just disagree with what you previously stated - which was that it was Hamilton, Hendricks and Johnson Counties that were responsible for most of the growth (actually I believe you said "virtually all" of the growth) in the state. Marion County has plenty to do with the overall growth in Central Indiana as well.

This is one of the biggest issues in Indy in its policy of putting sidewalks flush with the street. On those streets that do get plowed - which doesn't appear to be most of them - the plows deposit the snow on the sidewalk, which then freezes into a huge icy mass that's difficult to remove. I've even seen this downtown. Plus, there doesn't seem to be a strong tradition of shoveling sidewalks in front of your building in Indy anyway.

Putting in a landscaped buffer area would also help with this problem.



I feel like every year we are here complaining about the failure of businesses and homeowners failing to shovel. It would be nice to see some pressure from the city on this.

Once upon a time, I owned a house at the corner of two streets. One, a 4-lane Northside thoroughfare/busline, had the sidewalk next to the curb lane on a 60(?) foot ROW. Even there, about two or three extra feet of ROW existed "back of" the sidewalk in my lawn.

The side street ROW was 70 feet wide, made up this way: 2 feet of grass, 5 feet of sidewalk, 13 feet of grass, 30 feet of pavement, 13 more feet of grass, 5 more feet of sidewalk, 2 more feet of grass. (Even on the rare occasions it was plowed, there was never a flake of snow pushed onto that sidewalk.)

Since the thoroughfare had a bus stop at my corner, and since I lived a block from a couple of schools that had heavy "walk to school" traffic, I religiously cleared my sidewalks by 8am. All 250 feet.

Invariably, I would come out an hour or so later to find that the city snowplow had (finally) cleared the curb lane onto my clean sidwalk along the thoroughfare. By that time, the slush was too heavy for my snowblower, and I had to hand-shovel. And, of course, subsequent plowing would move even more slush onto the clear sidewalk.

After a few years of this, I simply gave up. There's only so much one person can do when he has to go to work. That was back in my "stand and fight" days; I was hoping for a non-clearing ticket so that I could prove that DPW was at fault. Alas, it never happened.

Wonder what would happen if DPW had to return money from its budget ($50 per parcel) when it plows slush on sidewalks?

1201 Indiana is really coming along. The framing is complete and they are doing facade work. It seems to be really nice. The fence has been removed on the Avenue at 10th and Indiana ave and they are doing some of the ground work. There is also a "Public Hearing" sign on a small corner parking lot at 10th and MLK - hoping for something decent there. Meanwhile the Indy Indie Artist Colony is a decent concept that has turned lame - just look at the poems written all over the door on 14th street. And further out on tenth street, the senior apartments have yet to be started and it looks like someone has stolen the John H. Boner Community Center sign from the community center. But I love the Funky new streetlights on 10th street.

Those are my updates.

Who do we complain to about the practice of plowing snow off of streets and onto sidewalks?! It makes me so, SO furious! The bridge on Meridian Street over Fall Creek is totally impassable every time it snows - and that's not a private property owner who could be fined for not shoveling, that's a city-owned sidewalk that the CITY is making unusable in a neighborhood where a LOT of people walk. Where do we write/call to complain that this policy HAS to change?!

Also the Park Meridian Townhomes at 96th and Meridian appear to be finishing their final phase. And I must say, they aren't too bad for suburban townhomes. Ryland Homes is finally catching on to the idea that urban and faux urban designs are becoming more popular. http://www.ryland.com/find-your-new-home/12-indianapolis/3087-park-meridian-townhomes.html.

Also the ivy tech campus is beginning to take shape. The Julia M. Carson Center is almost complete and the old St. V. building also now has framework attached. More Updates.

I have been reading posts on this site for a while, and thought that I would say "HI".

Recently walking home from CVS I had to walk over snow that had been plowed onto the sidewalks. Maybe the city should purchase snow blowers to clear the sidewalks once they have plowed them over. Just a thought.

Hey PAPA. Which CVS was that? I'm not really sure when this became the issues with winter weather thread but hopefully development is not that dead.

Hello there Sunday! I prefer not to say which CVS. I only posted the comment about snow becuase that seemed to be the current "burning" issue on here.

I am looking forward to joining the discussion and debate on the development of this fine city!!

http://www.indystar.com/article/20101227/LOCAL18/12270325/Fort-Harrison-nears-end-its-transition?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/26292012/detail.html

http://www.wthr.com/story/13714266/conseco-name-staying-on-indianapolis-arena

Who do we complain to about the practice of plowing snow off of streets and onto sidewalks?! It makes me so, SO furious! The bridge on Meridian Street over Fall Creek is totally impassable every time it snows - and that's not a private property owner who could be fined for not shoveling, that's a city-owned sidewalk that the CITY is making unusable in a neighborhood where a LOT of people walk. Where do we write/call to complain that this policy HAS to change?!


I recommend starting at the top and working your way down:
Mayor's offfice. There's a simple form with which to express your concern: http://www.indy.gov/eGov/Mayor/Pages/contact.aspx

The city-county council. There's an address to write your councilor or you can click to find your councilor (and the four at-large councilors who represent everyone in Marion County) and their e-mail address: http://www.indy.gov/eGov/Council/Pages/home.aspx

Star Watch: http://blogs.indystar.com/starwatch/

Sunday Bloody Sundae, Thanks for the informative links. This is what I look forward to on this site. Information, discussion, and debate on development news in this city. I look forward to reading more of your insightful posts in the future.

Thanks again for the links. I had seen the news about Conseco, but have somehow missed the information on the Harrison reuse, and the $$ for street sign inventory. Interesting.

I am continuing to refine my make believe Fountain Square model... Just curious if anyone has any constructive criticisim... I have added arrows to indicate the traffic patten. I think it would be similar to a low speed traffic circle. drivers would stop and yield to traffic before proceeding into the square. I offset the fountain so that it would terminate the view looking southeast on Virgina Ave. which enters the square at an odd angle. The street around the square is 22' wide. I think my one-way streets are too wide at 20+ feet (they could probably use on-street parking). The lanes on my two-way streets are a little wide as well at 13'+ feet.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5007/5299560704_d723875980.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5299560704/)
Fountain_Square5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5299560704/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Once upon a time, I owned a house at the corner of two streets. One, a 4-lane Northside thoroughfare/busline, had the sidewalk next to the curb lane on a 60(?) foot ROW. Even there, about two or three extra feet of ROW existed "back of" the sidewalk in my lawn.

The side street ROW was 70 feet wide, made up this way: 2 feet of grass, 5 feet of sidewalk, 13 feet of grass, 30 feet of pavement, 13 more feet of grass, 5 more feet of sidewalk, 2 more feet of grass. (Even on the rare occasions it was plowed, there was never a flake of snow pushed onto that sidewalk.)

Since the thoroughfare had a bus stop at my corner, and since I lived a block from a couple of schools that had heavy "walk to school" traffic, I religiously cleared my sidewalks by 8am. All 250 feet.

Invariably, I would come out an hour or so later to find that the city snowplow had (finally) cleared the curb lane onto my clean sidwalk along the thoroughfare. By that time, the slush was too heavy for my snowblower, and I had to hand-shovel. And, of course, subsequent plowing would move even more slush onto the clear sidewalk.

After a few years of this, I simply gave up. There's only so much one person can do when he has to go to work. That was back in my "stand and fight" days; I was hoping for a non-clearing ticket so that I could prove that DPW was at fault. Alas, it never happened.

Wonder what would happen if DPW had to return money from its budget ($50 per parcel) when it plows slush on sidewalks?

I have a pretty similar frontage, but fortunately, on lightly traveled streets and with a grass buffer on both streets. I'm no expert on snow removal. What is the proper technique for plowing streets like that? For instance, how is it done in Minneapolis or Chicago? Does the city come back and plow the sidewalk? Does the city take more care to deposit the snow somewhere else? I really don't know the answer.

I'm really frustrated with the Irvington Walgreens and the Tienda Morelos strip center next door. Those businesses, while meticulously clearing their parking lots, have done nothing with the sidewalks along Washington Street (or Ritter, in the case of Walgreens). Those sidewalks have no grass buffer, so they do have the issue of snow being plowed back onto them, but in the case of the Washington Street sidewalks, they are wide enough that they can't blame the snow plows for everything. The locally owned businesses on the south side of the street manage to keep the inside part of the sidewalk clear, but Walgreens and the strip mall owner (and the plasma center, it goes without saying) can't be bothered.

Either the Ballard administration or the next mayor needs to begin an aggressive awareness and enforcement campaign against businesses, and let landlords and homeowners know that they are next. The culture isn't going to form from thin air. People need to understand that clearing the sidewalk is as much an obligation as mowing the lawn.

It has been my experience that you can get information out of the city regarding sidewalk snow clearing but nobody wants to deal with enforcement. If you try, you end up in a circular finger pointing game.

I am continuing to refine my make believe Fountain Square model... Just curious if anyone has any constructive criticisim... I have added arrows to indicate the traffic patten. I think it would be similar to a low speed traffic circle. drivers would stop and yield to traffic before proceeding into the square. I offset the fountain so that it would terminate the view looking southeast on Virgina Ave. which enters the square at an odd angle. The street around the square is 22' wide. I think my one-way streets are too wide at 20+ feet (they could probably use on-street parking). The lanes on my two-way streets are a little wide as well at 13'+ feet.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5007/5299560704_d723875980.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5299560704/)
Fountain_Square5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64262017@N00/5299560704/) by hostetlermatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/64262017@N00/), on Flickr

Yeah, just one: too bad they didn't call you first, before they installed that delicate fountain in its ugly field of broken limestone cubes. :)

Yeah, just one: too bad they didn't call you first, before they installed that delicate fountain in its ugly field of broken limestone cubes. :)

I agree, that looks perfect.

I agree, that looks perfect.

I also agree...would have loved to see this over the current fountain layout. It would make for a very unique condition outside of downtown.

I love the Fountain Sq ideas Matt. What are you using to generate thees views anyway? They look pretty damn nice!

Saw this on the IBJ site this morning.
http://www.ibj.com/dukebrowning-team-to-develop-office-building-adjacent-to-new-wishard/PARAMS/article/24133

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/26292012/detail.html

Heh. Good job, WRTV.

Indianapolis will use $1 million in federal money to create an inventory of every city sign across the entire metro area.:lol:
Last line:
Some of the grant money will also be used to improve pedestrian crosswalks and install energy efficient street lights.

That's probably where most most the money's going, but--you know-- a million dollars for sign counting sounds crazier.

I love the Fountain Sq ideas Matt. What are you using to generate thees views anyway? They look pretty damn nice!

Saw this on the IBJ site this morning.
http://www.ibj.com/dukebrowning-team-to-develop-office-building-adjacent-to-new-wishard/PARAMS/article/24133

Thanks! SketchUp.

further out on tenth street, the senior apartments have yet to be started .

Not sure where you were looking, but the St. Clair (Senior) Apartments at 10th & Keystone are under construction. The foundations are in.

Remodeling of the former Lane TV store at 2828 E. 10th (just east of Rural) is complete and Pogue's Run Grocer (a project of Indy Food Coop) is now open. FMI go to www.poguesrungrocer.org (http://www.poguesrungrocer.org)

Hey all...thought I would drop in and get some Indy info. LOVE your idea for Fountain Square Matt!!!


Been very busy with the new job & the move to Cleveland. I absolutely LOVE Cleveland. What a great city! I hate to say it, but so much more grown up than Indy - though I understand that Indy is much, much newer. I love the nighborhoods - especially mine. Smack between Ohio City and Gordon Square. Although Indy has a handful of good neighborhoods, Cleveland is a City OF neighborhoods - not "what side of town do you live" mentality, rather, I live in ______. Every corner has a pub or cafe, people know each other because they see them out walking or in the pub or cafe. I can't wait for the warm weather so I can take advantage of my location on the lake.

FYI, I will say this, there is a very positive image of Indianapolis that I have gotten here when I tell people where I am from. Indy seems to be seen as "leader" in the midwest and Great Lakes region. Also, when I mention Indy, I immediately get "I hear it's a lot like Columbus." There was an article on Cleveland's census info Sunday talking about how the City has had a lot of investment and development, but troubling census data. The article ended with a local economist stating that the future lies in managable mid-sized cities such as Columbus, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh.

As a near Southeastsider, its cool to see three Fletcher Place / Fountain Square restaurants listed in Metromix magazine's top ten most recommended new restaurants (for 2010): Tortas Guicho Dominguez y El Cubanito (what should we call it for short? Tortas Cubanito?); Pure Eatery; and Square Rootz Deli. I've eaten at Tortas and Square Rootz and agree they have very delicious and unique sandwiches. Haven't tried Pure yet. Need to do that soon. I wish there would be a way they could get more window space on Virginia Avenue. The layout of the place is a little strange with the wall cutting the space down to a thin sliver by the one front window - so from the street, its difficult to see much of what is inside.

On other restaurant news, HUE restaurant (on Washington St.) will be opening with a special dinner planned for New Years Eve. Four course meal for $35 with champagne didn't sound too bad. Live entertainment in the upstairs loft / club space with Kate LaMont and others after 8:00.

It'll be interesting to see if the other spaces along that block that are currently being renovated will soon get new first floor restaurants. The McQuat building and the short, deco building to its west look they should have excellent street-front spaces opening in the not too distant future.

Cool --- Thanks for checking in Cory. I'm sure as much fun as you're having there now, Cleveland will be an even better experience once the warm weather rolls in. (But then, I guess I'm pretty much just repeating what you said above. :) ) Anyway -- enjoy. Hopefully the snow will melt by the end of March and you'll be out sailing on Lake Erie in no time. Adios for now.

http://www.ibj.com/renaissance-bay-condo-project-falters/PARAMS/article/24280 I always knew this project was destined to be a failure. It is not in a location where anyone would want to buy a condo. Outside of downtown and carmel, the metro area is primarily single-family oriented.

http://www.ibj.com/dukebrowning-team-to-develop-office-building-adjacent-to-new-wishard/PARAMS/article/24133 - wonder where this is going to be located?

This article released by the Project for Public Spaces based in NYC is exactly the kind of national/international attention Indianapolis needs to help re-define itself as a modern, ambitious, and innovative Midwest City.


http://www.pps.org/articles/boldmovesandbraveactions/




Bold Moves and Brave Actions

Categories: Articles (http://www.pps.org/placemaking/articles/), Newsletter (http://www.pps.org/placemaking/articles/newsletter/)

Great cities don’t just happen. They are the result of dedicated citizens and public officials who care about their hometowns and who are wiling to shake things up to make them better places to live, work and play. This almost always involves imaginative innovations, which defy all the conventional wisdom about how to plan cities. Here are five success stories from five continents that can encourage you to initiate some bold moves to turn around things in your own town. Melbourne gloriously revived its sagging downtown by emphasizing public spaces and deemphasizing auto accessibility. Zurich built one of the world’s great transit systems by embracing the tram at a time when streetcar tracks were being torn up everywhere else. Bogota, Colombia, got everybody on bikes in a city where almost nobody rode them before. Hong Kong, once notorious as a terrible place for anyone on foot, is making significant steps toward becoming pedestrian friendly. And Indianapolis, whose name is synonymous with speeding cars, is building world-class facilities for bicyclists and pedesetrians right through the heart of downtown.
Melbourne (http://www.pps.org/boldmovesandbraveactions#melbourne) | Zurich (http://www.pps.org/boldmovesandbraveactions#zurich) | Bogota (http://www.pps.org/boldmovesandbraveactions#bogota) | Hong Kong (http://www.pps.org/boldmovesandbraveactions#hongkong) | Indianapolis (http://www.pps.org/boldmovesandbraveactions#indianapolis)
Melbourne, Australia

http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/melbourne_skyline1_large.jpg Melbourne’s central business district is at least as lively and urban as any U.S. city other than New York. The fastest growing city in Australia with a population of nearly 4 million, Melbourne offers a rich street life and public realm. But that hasn’t always been so. Melbourne went as far, maybe further, than its U.S. counterparts in planning itself around the automobile.

But things began to change in 1993, when Danish urban quality authority Jan Gehl (http://www.pps.org/jgehl), working with Melbourne’s ambitious Director of Design and Urban Environment Rob Adams, ran one of his “public spaces, public life” surveys in Melbourne. During that first study Gehl collected baseline data on how public spaces were being used and made recommendations for public space and pedestrian improvements. He worked with the city to implement some of these bold improvements. In 2004 Gehl’s team was invited back to do a second study. They found that dramatic changes had taken place during the decade between the studies. Between 1993 and 2004, these were some of the changes that Gehl’s team observed:

71% more space for people and activities on streets and squares
177% more café seats
39% increase in pedestrian activity during the day on weekdays
98% increase in pedestrian activity in the evenings on weekdays
Gehl’s studies also tracked the steady improvements of ground floor retail spaces in central Melbourne, which contributed significantly to the city’s increasing pedestrian friendliness and the revitalization of downtown, as well as validating continued efforts to decrease auto traffic in Melbourne.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/melbourne1_large.jpg In the middle of one of the busiest sidewalks in Melbourne, people take time to stop and play chess, watch chess or just watch people.

In commissioning these studies Adams and other city officials charted a bold course by defining public spaces as a key issue in for improving the city. Ultimately, this attention led to a huge investment in Melbourne’s public spaces, and ultimately an increase in the quality and vitality of the city’s public life. Federation Square, completed in 2002, was the greatest testament to the city’s commitment to fostering public life. Built over a rail yard, Federation Square now functions as Melbourne’s living room, cultural center and nighttime destination. It took a large public investment of $473 million Australian (just under $400 Million U.S.) to do the project. Despite initial community resistance, the Square has been embraced by the city and is generating significant returns on many fronts. A destination such as this, despite greater difficulty in accessing via the private automobile, nonetheless brings people downtown and gives them a reason to stay and enjoy themselves.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/federation_square_1_large.jpg Federation Square, the new heart of downtown Melbourne, is a lively mixed-use space during both day and night.

http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/federation_square_2_large.jpg At first glance, one might assume that the successful revitalization of Melbourne’s downtown was soley the result of thinning automobile traffic in the central business district. But traffic reduction was only one piece of the puzzle. Melbourne’s renaissance was accomplished by focusing on the improvement, democratization and vitality of the city’s public spaces.
Zurich, Switzerland

http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/limmatquai_large.jpg The city of Zurich is famous for its banks and its chocolate. It is also increasingly known for making a dramatic transition from a city reliant on private cars to one committed to public transit. Zurich has one of the highest levels of per capita transit ridership in the world. At 560 trips per year, Zurich’s population makes roughly twice the number of trips per capita than those of Europe’s largest cities, including London, Paris and Berlin. With 76 percent of work and recreation trips made by transit, it overshadows even America’s most transit-friendly city, New York, which boasts only 25 percent of trips by transit. But it wasn’t always this way: Although the city had a tram system in place in the early 1970s, Zurich suffered a problem all too familiar to American cities today. Automobile ownership and congestion were increasing, while jobs and housing were moving out from the city center. The federal government put forth a proposal in 1973 to construct an underground network of trams andg trains, as many other European Cities had done. With the removal of public transit lines on the streets, more available space could be handed over to the car.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/zurich_tram3_large.jpg Zurich’s splendid tram system fosters a vibrant public life throughout the city.

Public outcry, however, was immediate and unexpected. Although citizens rallied against the motion for a variety of reasons (fear of urban growth and gentrification among them), the result was a resounding defeat at the polls. Soon afterwards a newly formed citizens group, the People’s Initiative for the Promotion of Public Transportation, proposed renovating the ailing tram system—an idea which defied all the conventional wisdom in the urban planning profession at that time. The proposal quickly gained momentum among the auto-weary citizenry but was opposed by politicians, businesses, engineers and other experts. The initiative was placed on the ballot in March 1977, and approved. Zurich’s planners estimated that it required five to ten lanes of car traffic to move the same number of people in one hour (8,000) as it does one tram. The introduction of hundreds of new tram cars to the transit system has allowed the city to save or reclaim valued public spaces that would have been given over to the automobile. Despite its initial opposition, Zurich’s government now makes continual improvements to the transit system because public officials realize how much it contributes to the livability of the city.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/zurich_1_large.jpg By emphasizing trams over autos in the city streets, Zurich has been able to create more public space for people.

Zurich’s bold move in embracing transit speaks to the power of the democratic process. The success of Zurich’s transit priority program bodes well for starting this dialogue between voters and their governments worldwide.
Bogota, Colombia

“It is like a gigantic park that is open 7 hours a week, and people of all ages and backgrounds take over the otherwise car dominated space and have fun.” This is how Guillermo (Gil) Peñalosa, former parks directors, describes Ciclovia, a unique event pioneered in Bogota and now emulated around the world. Each Sunday and holiday in Bogata, people stream into city streets for everything but driving. Since its creation in 1976, Ciclovia (which means bike path in Spanish) has grown from 8 miles of “reclaimed” road space and 140,000 weekly bike riders to 70 miles and an average of 1.5 million weekly riders, a huge turn out in a city of seven million. A key reason for the event’s success is topnotch management, featuring official volunteers in special uniforms, strong marketing and clear signage, along with an abundance of food vendors, and bike repair stands.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/colombia_street1_large.jpg On Sundays, 70 miles of Bogota streets are closed to cars and open to people on foot, bikes, and skates.

You will see people in $5,000 bikes and others in $50 bikes, and all having the same fun!” Penalsoa enthuses. “Rich and poor, young and old, men and woman, tall or short… ALL!” The event is also credited with encouraging many people to become daily bike commuters along the extensive network of bicycle lanes the city has developed. Before Ciclovia, Bogota sported very few bicyclists. Surveys show that 4 million people regularly attend the event, spending on average 4 hours and 15 minutes. Penalosa points out that participants “go to walk or bike, skate or do aerobics and to watch people, a preferred activity by human beings.” Penalosa, who now lives in Canada and is a Senior Associate with Project for Public Spaces and director of Walk and Bike for Life (http://www.walkandbikeforlife.com/), is currently working with leaders in The Bronx, Chicago (http://www.healthystreets.org/pages/sunday_parkways.htm), Cleveland, Baltimore, and Vancouver to develop similar programs. He helped set up a successful Ciclovia program in Guadalajara, Mexico (http://www.fomentodeportivo.gob.mx/viarecreactiva/index.php) that began with eight miles and 75,000 participants three years ago, and now covers 14 miles and attracts 140,000 every week. Several other cities in South America, like Quito, Ecuador and Santiago, Chile have also successfully implemented similar programs.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/ciclovia_street1_large.jpg This Ciclovia event, allows all ages and social classes to share the streets, which helps address the great class, race and ideological divides in Colombia.

This is a bold idea that can be applied relatively easily in many different forms in a wide range of urban contexts. Penalosa explains, “The infrastructure is there, there are no major needs of capital investments, no sports complex to build. It takes political will, public sector staff that are ‘doers’ (looking for solutions to problems and not problems to solutions), and community engagement.” A video on Bogota’s Ciclovia that PPS helped produce: http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/ciclovia/ (http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/ciclovia/)
Hong Kong, China

http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/hk_skyline_large.jpg North American cities looking for ways to deal with congestion and its negative impact on the economy should look across the Pacific to Hong Kong. This is a place that still has a long way to go in becoming a great city. Like many North American cities, it faces many serious challenges such as land use issues, public spaces, an underperforming waterfront, overall sustainability, and the dominance that business interests have over planning decisions. The city’s street markets, including the famous Graham Street Market, are under threat from government officials. But in some Hong King neighborhoods, there are impressive initiatives to make its congested streets more pedestrian-friendly. As recently as seven years ago, Hong Kong had virtually no streets that were comfortable for people to walk despite its international reputation as a bustling shopping city. In the intervening years the city is seeing the start of a transformation led by none other than the city’s Transport Department (http://www.td.gov.hk/transport_in_hong_kong/pedestrianisation/pedestrianisation/). In each of ten central districts, the Transport Department chose to do a combination of traffic calming and closing streets to vehicles—some permanently and some during certain hours. In the Causeway Bay area, for instance, the city has transformed an area of isolated, inward-focused shopping centers into a lively shopping district with a genuinely interesting streetlife. One of the area’s commercial shopping centers is actually named Times Square in an attempt to emulate New York City’s legendary public space, which only strengthens the message that similar improvements could easily be made in New York City itself,, where Times Square and other public spaces struggle with traffic and overcrowding.
Hong Kong, a city that once ranked among the world’s worst for walking and where tourists and residents alike dreaded boarding its public transportation system, now offers speedy and efficient mass transit and is beginning to realize the benefits of walkable public spaces. This brave about-face offers inspiration that any city can be turned around with careful attention to pedestrians, transit, and public spaces. http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/hong_kong_street1a_large.jpg
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/hong_kong_street2a_large.jpg A street in Hong Kong before (above) and after (below) pedestrianization and traffic calming measures were put into effect.


Indianapolis, USA

Indianapolis, Indiana, is taking what may be the boldest step of any American city towards supporting bicyclists and pedestrians. Known as an extremely auto-oriented city, famous for the Indianapolis 500, it is one of the last places you’d expect to see vehicle lanes being replaced with more space for bicycles and pedestrians.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/indianapolis_greenway_large.jpg Construction is underway on what may be the nation's most advanced urban greenway system.

The Indianapolis Cultural Trail (http://www.indyculturaltrail.info/), 8 miles of separated greenway, is currently being built through the downtown core of Indianapolis. Led by the Central Indiana Community Foundation in partnership with the city, the project is a bold response to skyrocketing obesity and an opportunity to improve the downtown area.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/cultural_trail_before_large.jpg Downtown Indianapolis before the Cultural Trail.

http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/cultural_trail_after_large.jpg Downtown Indianapolis as envisioned after the Cultural Trail.

More than just a separated bike path, the Cultural Trail is an economic development tool that will help support and connect the city’s many cultural and civic destinations. It will help revitalize the inner city by bringing more people downtown and increasing the length of time that people spend in the central city. It will also enhance street life at existing destinations and help foster new public spaces throughout the downtown. A combination of private and federal funds is being used to pay for the project. Public spaces have generally not attracted this kind of private investment, particularly in car-dominated heartland cities, but a bold vision and strong leadership at a community foundation has now raised the bar for other cities.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/map_indianapolis_cultural_trail_large.jpg The Trail will connect and define several districts within the downtown core.

http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/path1_indianapolis_large.jpg The design of the path will give pedestrians and bicyclists a sense of safety and comfort.

Project for Public Spaces has done Placemaking training for the grantees and partners of the community foundation’s Inspiring Places Initiative. PPS was also involved in the design team for the Cultural Trail project, doing the international best practices research of separated bike paths that influenced the final design.
http://www.pps.org/graphics/upo-pages/indianapolis_sidewalk_extension_large.jpg Sidewalk extensions make pedestrians and bicyclists more prominent on car-dominated streets.

The Cultural Trail is creating a powerful impetus for Indianapolis neighborhood groups to begin redefining their streets as public spaces that can satisfy a broad range of community needs. Indianapolis — a quintessential Midwestern car town — has decided that a street can and should be more than just a place to drive and store motor vehicles.

http://www.pps.org/articles/boldmovesandbraveactions/

The Cultural Trail is creating a powerful impetus for Indianapolis neighborhood groups to begin redefining their streets as public spaces that can satisfy a broad range of community needs. Indianapolis — a quintessential Midwestern car town — has decided that a street can and should be more than just a place to drive and store motor vehicles.

This certainly is good publicity for Indy. I'm interested to see how the suggested changes in the final paragraph actually play out. We've seen some positive changes along E. 10th Street, and apparently some may be coming to 16th Street (at least at the intersection with Delaware), but it seems to still be business as usual around the vast majority of the County.

Although Indy has a handful of good neighborhoods, Cleveland is a City OF neighborhoods - not "what side of town do you live" mentality, rather, I live in ______. Every corner has a pub or cafe, people know each other because they see them out walking or in the pub or cafe. I can't wait for the warm weather so I can take advantage of my location on the lake.

FYI, I will say this, there is a very positive image of Indianapolis that I have gotten here when I tell people where I am from. Indy seems to be seen as "leader" in the midwest and Great Lakes region.

Glad you're enjoying it there Cory.

It's interesting that I would think that there is a consensus among Indianapolitans, Clevelanders, & others that Indy is a more successful and economically healthy region, yet you are indicating that Cleveland far exceeds in Indy in urban, sustainable, quality of life type factors that most folks believe are necessary to attract and retain young educated people who should provide for economic vitality, innovation, job creation, etc.

Anyone else find that to be somewhat ironic? Have Indy's chickens not yet come home to roost, so to speak? Or is it true that Central Indiana need not waste its time and resources trying to be attractive to the so highly coveted, oft-labeled creative class? Can/will Central Indiana prosper by being the go-to mid-sized Midwestern region catering to traditional white-collar and blue-collar families seeking a "traditional" post-WWII suburban lifestyle? If so, do we need Indy Connect, the Cultural Trail and other such amenities?

This certainly is good publicity for Indy. I'm interested to see how the suggested changes in the final paragraph actually play out. We've seen some positive changes along E. 10th Street, and apparently some may be coming to 16th Street (at least at the intersection with Delaware), but it seems to still be business as usual around the vast majority of the County.

I wondered the same thing. While I love to thump our chests about the trail, there are still endless numbers of streets that need taken back, most notably the multiple thru-fares that exist. But I suppose a revolution has to start somewhere, and what better place than the trail. :)

Anyone else find that to be somewhat ironic? Have Indy's chickens not yet come home to roost, so to speak? Or is it true that Central Indiana need not waste its time and resources trying to be attractive to the so highly coveted, oft-labeled creative class? Can/will Central Indiana prosper by being the go-to mid-sized Midwestern region catering to traditional white-collar and blue-collar families seeking a "traditional" post-WWII suburban lifestyle? If so, do we need Indy Connect, the Cultural Trail and other such amenities?

I wondered the same thing. While I love to thump our chests about the trail, there are still endless numbers of streets that need taken back, most notably the multiple thru-fares that exist. But I suppose a revolution has to start somewhere, and what better place than the trail. :)

Guys, we'll always need cars in Indy.** And we will need to accommodate them. The goal should be balance, not preference for one mode over another. Comments about "taking back" streets lead me to infer that folks favor making streets unfriendly for cars, which should never be the objective.

This extends to our "low-speed expressways", the one-way street pairs and Fall Creek/Binford Blvd. They allow us to have fewer miles of urban expressway than other cities the same size. We need one or the other, and I'm for the one-way pairs.

It turns out that New York and Michigan did not suffer from their reduction to 2 through lanes (east of State/Oriental) and the neighborhood has real ped-bike gains from adding parking on both sides and a bike lane. This kind of modification may or may not fit your definition of "taking back" a street. It seems to me a good model for balancing pedestrian, bike, and auto commuter and resident needs.

I am realistic about Americans' (and Hoosiers') expressed preference for residential dispersion. While there will always be some of us who prefer urban life in closer quarters (whether in single-family homes on 40-foot frontages, or in townhomes, or in stacked flats), we are outnumbered and we do not have the right (or more importantly, the political power) to force our choices on those who disagree with us.

---
**Yes, I know some people can live without cars here. But such a life is beyond the boundaries of the vast majority of people.

I agree that we should have a transit system that allows more people to live full lives with fewer car-miles traveled. But this is a rainy, snowy city and it is just unrealistic to imagine that a high percentage of people will ever WANT to commute on foot or by bike or bus everywhere they go (unless there is a radical tax regime that fully internalizes the current externalities of automobile manufacturing, maintenance, and operation).

Using your logic Chris, Minneapolis wouldnt be consistently ranked the #2 city for bicycling in America, nor have a successful light rail line, and currently working on the 2nd.

They are hand and fist above us on the list of commuters dealing with snow/cold. So that rationale bares no weight with me.

However, it's difficult to argue with people wanting to live in suburbs. I feel like this is conditioning from the past 70 years of policy. I dont want to be confused as one of those transit activists who says, "Get rid of the car! We dont need them!" for fear of becoming a socialist. But you cant deny that "taking back" a lane each on Capitol and Illinois for light rail, or reconfiguring some roads like West Street to make them easier to cross, is out of the question. We have clearly overindulged our automobile fantasties.

And dont get me started on parking. You cant throw a rock in downtown without hitting a parking structure, or suface lot. But i digress... there is room to "take back the streets" and still not decapitate people's need for a car.

Glad you're enjoying it there Cory.

It's interesting that I would think that there is a consensus among Indianapolitans, Clevelanders, & others that Indy is a more successful and economically healthy region, yet you are indicating that Cleveland far exceeds in Indy in urban, sustainable, quality of life type factors that most folks believe are necessary to attract and retain young educated people who should provide for economic vitality, innovation, job creation, etc.

Anyone else find that to be somewhat ironic? Have Indy's chickens not yet come home to roost, so to speak? Or is it true that Central Indiana need not waste its time and resources trying to be attractive to the so highly coveted, oft-labeled creative class? Can/will Central Indiana prosper by being the go-to mid-sized Midwestern region catering to traditional white-collar and blue-collar families seeking a "traditional" post-WWII suburban lifestyle? If so, do we need Indy Connect, the Cultural Trail and other such amenities?

I wonder if it has to do with cities as domestic migrant destinations. My sense is (totally unsupported with data) is that Indy attracts lots of Hoosiers who want/need economic opportunity, but also want to be close to rural families. (My brother and his wife are an example of this). For Ohio, to me it's clear that Columbus ranks at the top for in-state migration, while Cincy and Cleve function as "regional" attractions in a very crowded field that includes Chicago, Minneapolis (also a state draw), Detroit (ditto) etc. This brings us back to the old canard about Ohio having too many big cities. To me Cleveland is a different animal from Indy, and to compare them is difficult because they seem to operate on different planes. Perhaps I'm not seeing Indy as a strong regional (non Hoosier) magnet, when it really is?

[/ramble]

Indy Metro draws principally from the rest of Indiana. It actually has a negative migration balance with the rest of the US.

Been very busy with the new job & the move to Cleveland. I absolutely LOVE Cleveland. What a great city! I hate to say it, but so much more grown up than Indy - though I understand that Indy is much, much newer. I love the nighborhoods - especially mine. Smack between Ohio City and Gordon Square. Although Indy has a handful of good neighborhoods, Cleveland is a City OF neighborhoods - not "what side of town do you live" mentality, rather, I live in ______. Every corner has a pub or cafe, people know each other because they see them out walking or in the pub or cafe. I can't wait for the warm weather so I can take advantage of my location on the lake.




Cory - It's interesting you made the choice to live in an urban neighborhood upon moving to Cleveland, but didn't do the same when you were living in Indianapolis. Were you simply motivated by financial/proximity to work when choosing where to live in each City?

Guys, we'll always need cars in Indy.** And we will need to accommodate them. The goal should be balance, not preference for one mode over another. Comments about "taking back" streets lead me to infer that folks favor making streets unfriendly for cars, which should never be the objective.

This extends to our "low-speed expressways", the one-way street pairs and Fall Creek/Binford Blvd. They allow us to have fewer miles of urban expressway than other cities the same size. We need one or the other, and I'm for the one-way pairs.

It turns out that New York and Michigan did not suffer from their reduction to 2 through lanes (east of State/Oriental) and the neighborhood has real ped-bike gains from adding parking on both sides and a bike lane. This kind of modification may or may not fit your definition of "taking back" a street. It seems to me a good model for balancing pedestrian, bike, and auto commuter and resident needs.

I am realistic about Americans' (and Hoosiers') expressed preference for residential dispersion. While there will always be some of us who prefer urban life in closer quarters (whether in single-family homes on 40-foot frontages, or in townhomes, or in stacked flats), we are outnumbered and we do not have the right (or more importantly, the political power) to force our choices on those who disagree with us.

---
**Yes, I know some people can live without cars here. But such a life is beyond the boundaries of the vast majority of people.

I agree that we should have a transit system that allows more people to live full lives with fewer car-miles traveled. But this is a rainy, snowy city and it is just unrealistic to imagine that a high percentage of people will ever WANT to commute on foot or by bike or bus everywhere they go (unless there is a radical tax regime that fully internalizes the current externalities of automobile manufacturing, maintenance, and operation).

Chris, you are correct, we should always seek a balanced transportation system. The problem is that we have such an auto-centric street network that small steps toward balance just don't cut it. Installing a bike lane and having parking on both sides of New York and Michigan still make for two terrible streets.

I would like many of our one-way pairs to disappear but I understand your concern. At the very least, I think we can agree that high speed arterials that cut through neighborhoods with no, tree lawns, no street trees, cobra-head lights etc. should no longer be acceptable.

One idea to reconfigure New York and Michigan streets while retaining their one-way operation would be to drastically narrow travel lanes, remove one parking lane, add two 5 foot tree lawns, street trees and pedestrian scaled lighting. I own a home on New York Street and am sure the value would be much higher if the street were calmed in this way.

Using your logic Chris, Minneapolis wouldnt be consistently ranked the #2 city for bicycling in America, nor have a successful light rail line, and currently working on the 2nd.

They are hand and fist above us on the list of commuters dealing with snow/cold. So that rationale bares no weight with me.

1. People know it's snowy and cold in Minneapolis. It is the ONLY large city in North America that is so far north and so cold and snowy. My opinion is that many choose it because of those features. Having lived there (involuntarily, as a child) I hated the climate and would NEVER go back to that. But people who love it, love it; I think there is definitely self-selection.

2. I'd bet that even the #2 bike-to-work city in the US probably still has significantly less than 10% of its commutes by bike daily, and probably less than 10% by transit (rail or bus).


However, it's difficult to argue with people wanting to live in suburbs. I feel like this is conditioning from the past 70 years of policy. I dont want to be confused as one of those transit activists who says, "Get rid of the car! We dont need them!" for fear of becoming a socialist.

I think it's easy to look at the past 65 years and invert cause and effect. People did not flee central cities because of expressways and parking lots. Rather, expressways and parking lots were built to serve people's need to get to central cities as they pursued dispersed living arrangements (suburbanization)...something that has a long history in the US and in Indianapolis. Irvington was platted in the 1870's. Likewise Woodruff Place. Broad Ripple and Meridian Kessler were already thriving in the 1920's.

But you cant deny that "taking back" a lane each on Capitol and Illinois for light rail, or reconfiguring some roads like West Street to make them easier to cross, is out of the question. We have clearly overindulged our automobile fantasties.

And dont get me started on parking. You cant throw a rock in downtown without hitting a parking structure, or suface lot. But i digress... there is room to "take back the streets" and still not decapitate people's need for a car.

I think we agree more than we disagree. Capitol and Illinois don't need 4 lanes each north of downtown. But I really don't ever have that big a problem crossing one of the "big streets" downtown (Meridian, Penn, Delaware, etc.) or, heaven forbid, jaywalking across one.

Chris, you are correct, we should always seek a balanced transportation system. The problem is that we have such an auto-centric street network that small steps toward balance just don't cut it. Installing a bike lane and having parking on both sides of New York and Michigan still make for two terrible streets.

I would like many of our one-way pairs to disappear but I understand your concern. At the very least, I think we can agree that high speed arterials that cut through neighborhoods with no, tree lawns, no street trees, cobra-head lights etc. should no longer be acceptable.

One idea to reconfigure New York and Michigan streets while retaining their one-way operation would be to drastically narrow travel lanes, remove one parking lane, add two 5 foot tree lawns, street trees and pedestrian scaled lighting. I own a home on New York Street and am sure the value would be much higher if the street were calmed in this way.

I agree about the value of tree lawns, especially since they prevent guttersplash and provide a place to store plowed snow until it melts.

But it's tough to drastically narrow streets on which buses and emergency vehicles must run. They need 10-10.5 foot lanes. (This is a lesson now being learned around the Boner Center on East 10th. One night in December, a fire truck got hung up on one of the recently-completed raingarden making a turn into a side street.) And now, in that stretch of 10th, there is no way to pass a stopped bus or a left-turning car at a side street because the curb is much further out. And finally, in a nod to our snow-clearance discussion earlier in the week, there's nowhere left for pedestrians to walk if a property-owner doesn't clear the walk. I've been up and down there lately quite a bit after dark or before sunrise this month, and I've had to be REALLY careful not to whack pedestrians in dark clothing.

Cory - It's interesting you made the choice to live in an urban neighborhood upon moving to Cleveland, but didn't do the same when you were living in Indianapolis. Were you simply motivated by financial/proximity to work when choosing where to live in each City?

Kevin-

Prior to living at Lake Kesslerwood, I only lived in Center Township. I lived in the Old Northside for 4 years, Herron-Morton for 3 and then Garfield Park for 3. I couldn't afford what I wanted in Center township, so I looked in Washington. It was not what I initially wanted, but I learned to love where I lived because the 56th& Fall Creek/Emerson area had plenty of services that I could bike to...and was right off of Binford for my 30-mile drive to Anderson.

When Cleveland happened, I only looked in 2 areas, Ohio City and Tremont. If I was going to be here, I wanted to make sure I lived in Cleveland and got to experience as much of the city as possible...its very possible I won't be here all that long.

2. I'd bet that even the #2 bike-to-work city in the US probably still has significantly less than 10% of its commutes by bike daily, and probably less than 10% by transit (rail or bus).


Commute mode share for bicycles in the city of Minneapolis is 3.9%. That's a grand total of 8,000 people. In the MSP metro area it is 0.9%. That's 0.5% and 0.3% respectively for Indy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Indiana_population_map.png

pic not related. Actually, this is one instance on which I'd prefer my state to more "red".

I agree about the value of tree lawns, especially since they prevent guttersplash and provide a place to store plowed snow until it melts.

But it's tough to drastically narrow streets on which buses and emergency vehicles must run. They need 10-10.5 foot lanes. (This is a lesson now being learned around the Boner Center on East 10th. One night in December, a fire truck got hung up on one of the recently-completed raingarden making a turn into a side street.) And now, in that stretch of 10th, there is no way to pass a stopped bus or a left-turning car at a side street because the curb is much further out. And finally, in a nod to our snow-clearance discussion earlier in the week, there's nowhere left for pedestrians to walk if a property-owner doesn't clear the walk. I've been up and down there lately quite a bit after dark or before sunrise this month, and I've had to be REALLY careful not to whack pedestrians in dark clothing.

I would love to see 10' lanes on Michigan and New York!!! I believe the current lanes are between 12' and 14'. These streets just beg you to go 40/50Plus MPH. DPW needs to have a serious conversation about design speed.

Kevin-

Prior to living at Lake Kesslerwood, I only lived in Center Township. I lived in the Old Northside for 4 years, Herron-Morton for 3 and then Garfield Park for 3. I couldn't afford what I wanted in Center township, so I looked in Washington. It was not what I initially wanted, but I learned to love where I lived because the 56th& Fall Creek/Emerson area had plenty of services that I could bike to...and was right off of Binford for my 30-mile drive to Anderson.

When Cleveland happened, I only looked in 2 areas, Ohio City and Tremont. If I was going to be here, I wanted to make sure I lived in Cleveland and got to experience as much of the city as possible...its very possible I won't be here all that long.

Thanks for sharing, Cory. I didn't realize you had lived in those neighborhoods in Indy. I was mainly curious to understand if the urban neighborhood appeal in Cleveland was stronger for you versus Indianapolis.

Your comments about getting the most out of your experience in Cleveland highlights something for me. When comparing Indianapolis to younger cities (that don't have the history/built environment that influences lifestyle) that have seen economic/cultural advancement in recent years, like Austin and Portland, the missing part of the equation for Indy is an influx of young, educated people from out of state (as Aaron mentioned in previous post, most of the people moving to Indy are other from areas within the state of Indiana). The benefit to Austin and Portland from these people moving there from various places (and outside their home state) is more than just population gains, it's new perspective and ideas, ambitious people that want to connect, and people that want to get out and explore all the City's cultural offerings.

Recently, i was in Indianapolis to pitch a project i have been working on and met with some of the movers/shakers in Indy. It struck me to learn that a lot of the people that are well connected and making things happen in the City are not originally from Indianapolis. Some were from Indiana, but they had lived elsewhere before returning back to Indianapolis to establish themselves. This underscores the need for Indianapolis to focus efforts on attracting people from outside of Indiana. The City will simply not get the same type of civic engagement from people moving in from rural areas around the state.

I just rode on the now opened half-block leg of the Cultural Trail on Capitol Ave. from the new facing-Georgia-St. entrance of the Convention Center north to Maryland St. It's beautiful; they used red-colored pedestrian pavers instead of the standard gray-colored ones, to better match the Convention Center colors. And that might be colored permeable concrete on the sidwalk immediately in front of the CC entrance. So one will soon be able to ride a bike from the CC entrance to 146th south of Westfield, on dedicated bike trails, and eventually farther, uninterrupted.

I was on the east end of mass ave today on the cultural trail and noticed the "Care; Don't Care" Pedestrian Sign Art Work was gone. I hope someone didn't jack that sign like they did the sign outside of the John H. Boner community center.

While we are on the topic of the the trails, I have a couple of thoughts.

Nice observations above.

jjgn, I agree the walkway outside the convention center does look nicely blended.

Sunday, Nice observation on the missing artwork. Hadn't noticed that.

I walked the Monon from 16th to the Cultural Trail and have a couple of observations of my own.

First, I am confused as to why the two trails don't "get along". I noticed as I approached the Cultural Trail that the signage on the Monon still says "Trail Ends 1000 feet". Couldn't they change the signage on both trails to convey a merging of the two trails.

I also noticed that the Cultural Trail is confusing to some at 10th and Mass Ave. I noticed some cyclists having confusion deciding which way to go when going from Mass Ave to 10th to the Monon.

I walked the Monon from 16th to the Cultural Trail and have a couople of observations of my own.

First, I am confused as to why the two trails don't "get along". I noticed as I approached the Cultural Trail that the signage on the Monon still says "Trail Ends 1000 feet". Couldn't they change the signage on both trails to convey a merging of the two trails.

I also noticed that the Cultural Trail is confusing to some at 10th and Mass Ave. I noticed some cyclists having confusion deciding which way to go when going from Mass Ave to 10th to the Monon.

You should pass these comments onto contact@indyculturaltrail.org.

When comparing Indianapolis to younger cities (that don't have the history/built environment that influences lifestyle) that have seen economic/cultural advancement in recent years, like Austin and Portland, the missing part of the equation for Indy is an influx of young, educated people from out of state (as Aaron mentioned in previous post, most of the people moving to Indy are other from areas within the state of Indiana). The benefit to Austin and Portland from these people moving there from various places (and outside their home state) is more than just population gains, it's new perspective and ideas, ambitious people that want to connect, and people that want to get out and explore all the City's cultural offerings.



Well, in the case of Austin, having a MAJOR public university is the reason for attracting large numbers of out of state young people. Indy will never have that, even as IUPUI tries to become more than a commuter campus.

Portland's is in the heart of the Pacific Northwest, which as a whole has seen enormous migration from other parts of the country. It's proximity to beautiful natural features attracts an adventurous, young, and upper income demographic.

You should pass these comments onto contact@indyculturaltrail.org.

Thanks jjgn, DONE!

http://www.urbanindy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/old_indy_2000_density_map.jpg

I normally lurk, but I have something to bring up. I live near 38th & Eagle Creek. I like it because I can walk across the street and go to Marsh and Target, or even get a bite to eat.

When I say walk across the street, I mean dodge cars across a 2-4 lane parkway and 4-6+ lane city street.

But, if you look at the map.. you can see that the area is moderately populated. However, unlike the Broad Ripple area south, it doesn't have a lot of money.

My question is.. why is there a lack of shopping options in this area of town. There is one grocery store within 2 miles east and south of 38th & 465? The nearest traditional store outside Marsh is Kroger on Crawfordsville or Meijer on Pike Plaza. Outside of that, drive to the Kroger on Rockville & Country Club or North to.. well.. there's 56th & Georgetown.

I know there are areas of town w/ less density but more stores (in the suburbs).

Also, does anyone know the history of the development of this area of town.. the area east of eagle creek airport, west of the 465, north of 38th and south of 56th. Was there a grand plan for Eagle Creek Parkway? Is there a reason why some developed areas are *still* heavily wooded outside of the park?

thanks

I have noticed a huge crane on the northwest side at the 465/865 split. Does anyone have any information about what this is? It is still in marion county, so hopefully this is good news for the tax rolls of indianapolis. I am also happy to see large (hopefully mid-to-highrise) projects still being constructed along 465 in indianapolis as opposed to them being built on 31 in Carmel or 69 in Fishers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Indiana_population_map.png

pic not related. Actually, this is one instance on which I'd prefer my state to more "red".

I would suggest that what would enhance Indiana is not more people, but more "relief", in terms of populated and unpopulated areas. If you look at most of the very successful American cities over the last 20 years, they have tended to be densely populated urban areas next to parks, mountains, lakes, or wilderness that is relatively unpopulated, and thus, an escape from the urban density. So, pack Indy with more people, but also expand the state and national forests to the south so that they are closer to the city. Bloomington might be the best example of this in the state.

I would suggest that what would enhance Indiana is not more people, but more "relief", in terms of populated and unpopulated areas. If you look at most of the very successful American cities over the last 20 years, they have tended to be densely populated urban areas next to parks, mountains, lakes, or wilderness that is relatively unpopulated, and thus, an escape from the urban density. So, pack Indy with more people, but also expand the state and national forests to the south so that they are closer to the city. Bloomington might be the best example of this in the state.

Right before deer rifle season in, I think, late October, I hiked 55 miles over three nights from the Morgan-Monroe HQ near Martinsville to the south trailhead of Nebo Ridge Trail west of Story and crossed paths with only 4 people: a squirrel hunter, some man with something hidden under his shirt and 2 solo backpackers going the other direction. Some cars also on the roads. So, close proximity to recreating in the NF and SFs from Marion County is real. I think the promoters of young people moving to Indianapolis miss this completely.

I was on the east end of mass ave today on the cultural trail and noticed the "Care; Don't Care" Pedestrian Sign Art Work was gone. I hope someone didn't jack that sign like they did the sign outside of the John H. Boner community center.

I think the Boner Center sign facing 10th & Jefferson was removed on purpose. The former cafe space below it is becoming the St. Clair Place Welcome Center. The sign facing south on the same awning is still in place.

Took a field trip to the giant crane at 865 & 465. It is a fully grounded crane so this must be something pretty sizeable. It has no signage but is a part of the Northwest Technology Center, and is right next to ( but not sure if it's a part of) the Dow AgriScience Center. If anyone has information, Im just being nosey.

I have been taking walks along the streets of this city for a while now and have been getting irritated at the massive amounts of trash littered in the streets, on the sidewalks, and in the parks and public spaces- SO I am starting a new cleanup initiative. I am calling it "ONE BAG AT A TIME." The idea is to take a plastic grocery bag with you every time you go for a walk, jog, bike ride, etc. and fill one bag with trash then dispose of it in a trash can or dumpster. This way we can get the city streets cleaned up "one bag at a time." I will be creating a blog for anyone to post comments on, tell me how they feel, or let me know that they are participating, and which neighborhood they are cleaning up. Feel free to join in the cleanup

dp

http://onebagindy.blogspot.com/ JOIN THE CLEANUP!

GREAT IDEA!! Hope it catches on!!

Did anyone else see the JW Marriott on TV during the Colts game the other night? There was one shot from the blimp that had the interior guest room lights in the hotel all turned on to form a gigantic 30-story horseshoe. It was pretty sweet! They won't be able to do that for much longer; but hopefully they will again on Saturday.

Did anyone else see the JW Marriott on TV during the Colts game the other night? There was one shot from the blimp that had the interior guest room lights in the hotel all turned on to form a gigantic 30-story horseshoe. It was pretty sweet! They won't be able to do that for much longer; but hopefully they will again on Saturday.
Yeah, that was pretty damn cool! And I thought the same thing: it's too bad they won't be able to do that beyond this Saturday's playoff game.

Anyone have any insight into how things are going (went) with Riley Area Development Corp getting its financing issues worked out for funding of the Trailside project? I understood there was a need to get the financing completed by the end of the year. Its kind of foreboding that we haven't heard anything yet, now that it is January 4th. Hopefully this project doesn't die just because the financing paperwork couldn't be agreed to and completed by Dec. 31st.

I heard from a contact last week that they did fully secure funding and they still plan on demo starting this month... "as long as the weather is good."

Really? Come on, its demo. That's all weather work. Sounded a little like trying to create some wiggle room with the start date, so there might be another hurdle we all don't know about.

Yeah, that was pretty damn cool! And I thought the same thing: it's too bad they won't be able to do that beyond this Saturday's playoff game.

They could project a horseshoe. White laser light projected on the blue glass. Especially good if the visiting playoff team is staying there. :lol:

I have been taking walks along the streets of this city for a while now and have been getting irritated at the massive amounts of trash littered in the streets, on the sidewalks, and in the parks and public spaces- SO I am starting a new cleanup initiative. I am calling it "ONE BAG AT A TIME." The idea is to take a plastic grocery bag with you every time you go for a walk, jog, bike ride, etc. and fill one bag with trash then dispose of it in a trash can or dumpster. This way we can get the city streets cleaned up "one bag at a time." I will be creating a blog for anyone to post comments on, tell me how they feel, or let me know that they are participating, and which neighborhood they are cleaning up. Feel free to join in the cleanup

I've walked a lot along the Pleasant Run Trail/Greenway east of Sherman, in and around Ellenberger and Christian Parks, Howe HS, and Irvington, and I must gladly report that I seldom (if ever) see enough loose trash in those places to pick up.

East side pride. :)

On a more insightful note, a recent story in the Wall Street Journal talked about a city in NW Ohio that had switched to the same automated trash pickup system that Indy uses. One big complaint was loose trash in the streets, because there's no one to see it fly out of the bins and trucks as they're working. Could that be the root cause of what you see?

Saw the JW Marriott on Sunday too and it looked fantastic!


I have been wondering about Trailside. I get this awful feeling that it isn't going to happen. IMO that project is the most-important project on the Ave right now and is essential in bridging the gap between the two "ends" of Mass Ave. I really hope ground-breaking starts soon

I have been wondering about Trailside. I get this awful feeling that it isn't going to happen. IMO that project is the most-important project on the Ave right now and is essential in bridging the gap between the two "ends" of Mass Ave. I really hope ground-breaking starts soon

I have to respectfully disagree. The dual projects (Fire Station and Barton Tower street-front) on the "Barton Block" of Mass Ave are today's most important in bridging the gap and making Mass Ave function more seamlessly.

After that, it will be the two vacant lots at College & Mass: one on the triangle between St. Clair & Mass on the west side of College, one on the NE corner outside the IPS Bus Garage fence. Trailside will be a nice addition, but it won't build any bridges or fill in any "missing teeth" from a development perspective.

It will put a few pedestrians and bicyclists on the avenue; I suspect folks who live at Trailside will just go straight down the Mass Ave sidewalk to get places on foot and skip the Cultural Trail.

I've walked a lot along the Pleasant Run Trail/Greenway east of Sherman, in and around Ellenberger and Christian Parks, Howe HS, and Irvington, and I must gladly report that I seldom (if ever) see enough loose trash in those places to pick up.

East side pride. :)

Well, I would say that "any" loose trash is more than enough to pick up. If we have pride in our city and in making it more than it is, we should take pride enough to pick up any trash we see. I am in Sunday Bloody Sundae, and have gladly started picking up trash in my neighborhood as I take my daily walk.

Has anyone heard of this project? It is a rather large 3 or 4 story midrise apartment development on the west side of the zoo and railroad tracks on the near west side. Part of it is a conversion of IPS school 30 with a large nice new addition. It looks similar to 34 North on Meridian with an old schoolhouse attached. Found nothing online about it but it is something nice to check out in person. It is (Indianola) park adjacent on the block that borders Washington, Miley, Elder, & Ohio. Nice to see something happening on the other side of the river:)

They are senior apartments BTW (55+). Hopefully they will anchor the area's redevelopment

The college and mass ave lots are owned by the historic fire station (not sure if that's still IFD), the lot just north is owned by multiple families (some of which cannot be found... Cloud on the title so it's hard to secure), and the corner east of college is owned by the finish line. I don't know if there is much hope any time soon on that corner unless the fire station sells. I really can't wait for the IPS depot to relocate, it would spark more interest in the vacant lots.

I have noticed a huge crane on the northwest side at the 465/865 split. Does anyone have any information about what this is? It is still in marion county, so hopefully this is good news for the tax rolls of indianapolis. I am also happy to see large (hopefully mid-to-highrise) projects still being constructed along 465 in indianapolis as opposed to them being built on 31 in Carmel or 69 in Fishers.

I asked about this a few pages back but to no avail. I'm pretty excited for mid-rises anywhere in the area.

Has anyone heard of this project? It is a rather large 3 or 4 story midrise apartment development on the west side of the zoo and railroad tracks on the near west side. Part of it is a conversion of IPS school 30 with a large nice new addition. It looks similar to 34 North on Meridian with an old schoolhouse attached. Found nothing online about it but it is something nice to check out in person. It is (Indianolia?) park adjacent on the block that borders Washington, Miley, Elder, & Ohio. Nice to see something happening on the other side of the river:)

They are senior apartments BTW (55+). Hopefully they will anchor the area's redevelopment

Developer's site (scroll down to view info)

http://www.thewhitsettgroup.biz/communities/

They've got a few communities with the Wexford name. I wonder what's up with that.

Developer's site (scroll down to view info)

http://www.thewhitsettgroup.biz/communities/

They've got a few communities with the Wexford name. I wonder what's up with that.

It's branding. It was more common for apartment developers to do that 30-40 years ago; one developer branded all their apartments with "(something)-Tree" names. Another used Olde American names (Jamestown, Williamsburg, etc.).

There is a very large back-lit color photo of downtown Indianapolis in the M&I bank lobby at Pennsylvania and Ohio, with Indiana, Mass., Va. and Kentucky Aves. all intact, so before construction of the INB tower. North is to the left and it is a beautiful, odd view with many gone and existing buildings. I think it had been in a First Indiana executive office for some years and was moved to the bank lobby about 18 months ago.

I have to respectfully disagree. The dual projects (Fire Station and Barton Tower street-front) on the "Barton Block" of Mass Ave are today's most important in bridging the gap and making Mass Ave function more seamlessly.

After that, it will be the two vacant lots at College & Mass: one on the triangle between St. Clair & Mass on the west side of College, one on the NE corner outside the IPS Bus Garage fence. Trailside will be a nice addition, but it won't build any bridges or fill in any "missing teeth" from a development perspective.

It will put a few pedestrians and bicyclists on the avenue; I suspect folks who live at Trailside will just go straight down the Mass Ave sidewalk to get places on foot and skip the Cultural Trail.


I agree with you - but let's be honest, those projects are pipe-dreams at the moment. I was refering Trailside in the "approved" sense. The Barton development and fireheadquarters aren't even off of the drawing board - with the IFD site still occupied by IFD

I agree with you - but let's be honest, those projects are pipe-dreams at the moment. I was refering Trailside in the "approved" sense. The Barton development and fireheadquarters aren't even off of the drawing board - with the IFD site still occupied by IFD

Yabut...you know that with the city's economic development staff behind development of the IFD site, approval will move fast. (See NoSo.)

It's in the mayor's (and his staff's) interest to have things happening by November 1 (election day).

Yabut...you know that with the city's economic development staff behind development of the IFD site, approval will move fast. (See NoSo.)

It's in the mayor's (and his staff's) interest to have things happening by November 1 (election day).
I'm not sure Buckingham thinks NoSo is moving so fast. They still don't have Regional Center Hearing Examiner approval (scheduled for 1/13/11), let alone final MDC approval (maybe 1/19/11). They were hoping for approval to be finalized and construction started before the end of 2010, which I said was WAY overly optimistic. I'll be very impressed if they're moving dirt by February.

There is a very large back-lit color photo of downtown Indianapolis in the M&I bank lobby at Pennsylvania and Ohio, with Indiana, Mass., Va. and Kentucky Aves. all intact, so before construction of the INB tower. North is to the left and it is a beautiful, odd view with many gone and existing buildings. I think it had been in a First Indiana executive office for some years and was moved to the bank lobby about 18 months ago.

Thanks for the heads up! :-)

On a more insightful note, a recent story in the Wall Street Journal talked about a city in NW Ohio that had switched to the same automated trash pickup system that Indy uses. One big complaint was loose trash in the streets, because there's no one to see it fly out of the bins and trucks as they're working. Could that be the root cause of what you see?

Does Indy now have these automated trucks? We have them in my NW Ohio city (not Toledo), but I haven't noticed the problems here mentioned in the WSJ story about Toledo. I'd guess the problems in Toledo have more to do with implementation and informing the public about the changes than the technology itself.

Does Indy now have these automated trucks? We have them in my NW Ohio city (not Toledo), but I haven't noticed the problems here mentioned in the WSJ story about Toledo. I'd guess the problems in Toledo have more to do with implementation and informing the public about the changes than the technology itself.

Yes, Indy has switched many neighborhoods to the 96-gal. tote with automated pickup. But I think I'd lay the loose-trash problem straight on the truck crews.

Even though Indy's trucks still have a driver and handler, I have noticed that since the switch in my neighborhood, there is more obvious loose trash that fell out of cans or off the truck and wasn't picked up by the handler.

Toledo's trucks apparently just have a driver, which would lead to the same outcome (only worse).

I'm not sure Buckingham thinks NoSo is moving so fast. They still don't have Regional Center Hearing Examiner approval (scheduled for 1/13/11), let alone final MDC approval (maybe 1/19/11). They were hoping for approval to be finalized and construction started before the end of 2010, which I said was WAY overly optimistic. I'll be very impressed if they're moving dirt by February.

LOL, I'm sure Buckingham thinks it's moving too slowly. They like to move really fast.

But 90-110 days is fast for a huge Regional Center project that requires TIF money, rezoning and design approval. You can't do a "design-build" in the RC area, as the full final project and building designs must be vetted and approved by DMD prior to issuance of building permits and after TIF funding is granted.

Compare this to the Clarian Admin project, which was announced earlier and still awaits one final approval.

LOL, I'm sure Buckingham thinks it's moving too slowly. They like to move really fast.

But 90-110 days is fast for a huge Regional Center project that requires TIF money, rezoning and design approval. You can't do a "design-build" in the RC area, as the full final project and building designs must be vetted and approved by DMD prior to issuance of building permits and after TIF funding is granted.

Compare this to the Clarian Admin project, which was announced earlier and still awaits one final approval.
The hits just keep coming for Buckingham! The 1/13/11 Regional Center Hearing Examiner docket just came out online and NoSo was continued again to 2/10/11. At best, that would put final approval before the MDC on 2/16/11 but I believe that would be insufficient public notice, so it's more likely it would be at the 3/2/11 meeting.

These UPDATES were new to me, as I have not noticed them to have been posted here in recent posts.

- Steel framing is starting to shape up at St. Clair apartments at 10th and Keystone, and at Wishard Hospital.

- Signage had been installed at the JW Marriott for the upscale restaurant on north end and High Velocity Sports Bar on the south end. The JW Marriott also has a news ticker on the south side of the building.

- The inflatable cloth dome/sports training facility is being inflated this weekend at the University of Indianapolis and will be used as a training/practice facility for the 2012 Superbowl.

- the Consulate of Mexico also looks complete on the outside.

- it looks like they are FINALLY prepping to widen Emerson Ave. between Thompson and Southport roads.

Also, does anyone know if the turning restriction at Capital and South (orange construction sign says "no right turn") going to be a permanant restriction or just during construction?

Another observation: The renovated Penn Arts apartments appear to have very few residents. I am wondering if this has anything to do with the fact that they are outrageously over priced.

- Signage had been installed at the JW Marriott for the upscale restaurant on north end and High Velocity Sports Bar on the south end. The JW Marriott also has a news ticker on the south side of the building.

The restaurant on the North end of the JW Marriott is called Osteria Pronto. Sounds pretty swanky.

The shelton is almost completely remodeled and has a ground level garage being built in the back that atleast adds a feeling of a little more density to that area.

I have also noticed the framing of the St. Clair Apartments on 10th, and I am starting to get a picture of the canyon that will be built on 10th. (It will be great). I have also noticed that the streetlights haven't been turned on yet.

http://www.ibj.com/convention-center-expansion-is-highstakes-gamble/PARAMS/article/24457

Another observation: The renovated Penn Arts apartments appear to have very few residents. I am wondering if this has anything to do with the fact that they are outrageously over priced.

I think it has more to do with the fact that the renovation is proceeding several apartments at a time from the top down. (Note the large amount of kitchen cabinets and appliances stored in the eastern-most storefront on the ground level.)

A few restaurant changes downtown: Alcatraz Brewing Co. at Circle Centre to become California Pizza Kitchen; Quizno's on the Circle to close.

http://www.ibj.com/property-lines/2011/01/10/california-pizza-kitchen-to-replace-alcatraz-more/PARAMS/post/24491

I think a pizza place on the ground floor there at Maryland and Illinois could do pretty well. Alcatraz usually didn't seem too busy. Maybe too many brew pubs in such a compact area.

I can see why the Quiznos might be closing. Didn't seem to be real busy - and the few times I went in there, the service seemed pretty bad. I'd like to see something better go in there - that helps begin the overall improvement of the circle - as has been discussed for a while. A restaurant with outdoor seating and the type of place that would stay busier in the evenings would be good. The problem might be however that the space is so small. I'm sure any type of full service restaurant would never fit in there. Maybe they could expand into one of the adjacent buildings. Since the Starbucks next door likely isn't moving, it would have to expand the other way -- toward the Circle Theater. I believe there may be some space to expand if you go that way.

Daily update.

fencing up and removing the surface parking at 16th and senate. Not sure if this is for the neuro center or just the parking garage.

Public Hearing sign now up at James E. Roberts school on 10th - where the mass ave fire headquarters and station will be relocated.

Nothing but groundwork at The Avenue and Studios at the Waverley.

The only times Ive been to Alcatraz, the food sucked. Maybe that is why they are vacating?

There is no such thing as too many brew pubs in a small area. See: DT Portland.

I can see why the Quiznos might be closing. Didn't seem to be real busy - and the few times I went in there, the service seemed pretty bad. I'd like to see something better go in there - that helps begin the overall improvement of the circle - as has been discussed for a while. A restaurant with outdoor seating and the type of place that would stay busier in the evenings would be good. The problem might be however that the space is so small. I'm sure any type of full service restaurant would never fit in there. Maybe they could expand into one of the adjacent buildings. Since the Starbucks next door likely isn't moving, it would have to expand the other way -- toward the Circle Theater. I believe there may be some space to expand if you go that way.

I really hope a local can take over this space.. A small cafe/restaurant with outdoor seating would be great, especially if they served booze!

The only times Ive been to Alcatraz, the food sucked. Maybe that is why they are vacating?

There is no such thing as too many brew pubs in a small area. See: DT Portland.

California Pizza Kitchen is a bit underwhelming.. At least it's not an Applebee's.

More Updates:

Walking on 10th st today and noticed from the bus stops that the Near Eastside Orbitor cancelled it's service after 12/31/10.

Looks like they are starting a new phase of Canal Gardens on MLK South of 16th. I am wondering if they will change the original design due to the fact that few, if any of the condos sold and it has become a rental community?

Jobs moving back into the core of the city instead of going the other way around.

Indianapolis -- MZD advertising agency will move from Woodfield Crossing on the Northeastside to leased space at 120 E. Vermont St. The vacant 10,000-square-foot building is co-owned by Jeremy Hamilton, who ran his now-defunct Dine magazine out of it. MZD will take over Dine's cookbook projects, MZD Chairman and CEO Allan Zukerman said. (Star report)

Also

Indianapolis -- A nonprofit agency will renovate two apartment buildings in the 3700 block of North Meridian Street to serve the homeless and other clients. The $9 million update of the Schuyler and Meridian Mark apartments will include new windows, kitchens and baths, plus new electrical and plumbing systems. Laundry, computer and fitness rooms will be added. Reopening is set for March 2012, said general contractor and property manager Herman & Kittle Properties of Indianapolis. Developer Bethlehem House Residence also serves people with substance abuse problems and HIV/AIDS. The Indiana Housing and Community Development Authority has awarded federal low-income housing tax credits for the project. (Star report)

More Updates:

Walking on 10th st today and noticed from the bus stops that the Near Eastside Orbitor cancelled it's service after 12/31/10.

Looks like they are starting a new phase of Canal Gardens on MLK South of 16th. I am wondering if they will change the original design due to the fact that few, if any of the condos sold and it has become a rental community?
The Canal Gardens addition was approved by the MDC in November. This phase is explicitly apartments and the design is more than a little bit blah:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/CanalGardensNWElev.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/CanalGardensSEElev.jpg

Thanks CorrND. You have the hook up with all of this info dont you? Are you the cory from property lines?

We are seeing so much 3-4 story infill development around the city. It is very exciting

Thanks CorrND. You have the hook up with all of this info dont you? Are you the cory from property lines?
Nah, not Cory. I just like to troll through the Department of Metropolitan Development documents as they get released. There's a lot of tedious stuff in there, but everything has to go through them.

Jobs moving back into the core of the city instead of going the other way around.

Indianapolis -- MZD advertising agency will move from Woodfield Crossing on the Northeastside to leased space at 120 E. Vermont St. The vacant 10,000-square-foot building is co-owned by Jeremy Hamilton, who ran his now-defunct Dine magazine out of it. MZD will take over Dine's cookbook projects, MZD Chairman and CEO Allan Zukerman said. (Star report)


This wasn't a very long exile. MZD was at 18th & Meridian for decades until four or five years ago, in a building owned by the "M" in MZD.

Certainly seems like a step down to move from Woodfield to a dumpy little one-story on a side street, but I guess the ad-agency business has been pretty battered by the decline in print, the rise in Internet ads and the recession. Pearson, Crahan & Fletcher dissolved after being one of the city's leading agencies for 25 years.

Nah, not Cory. I just like to troll through the Department of Metropolitan Development documents as they get released. There's a lot of tedious stuff in there, but everything has to go through them.

Try doing it for a living. :lol:

http://www.ibj.com/trail-side-funding-finally-closes/PARAMS/article/24513

Yeaah ----- the financing for the Trail Side project finally got worked out.

Try doing it for a living. :lol:
I can only imagine!

And very good news about the Trail Side. Sounds like it should be done by the end of the year.

I just hope that they dont close down the trail to build this thing. After being under construction for so long in that area, its nice to be able to ride through there. Additionally, I hope they dont screw up the trail itself with demolition.

details... details...

I just hope that they dont close down the trail to build this thing. After being under construction for so long in that area, its nice to be able to ride through there. Additionally, I hope they dont screw up the trail itself with demolition.

And I'm hoping for every sidewalk in town to be cleared today, but that won't happen either.

I see how high your expectations are Chris ;-)

California Pizza Kitchen is a bit underwhelming.. At least it's not an Applebee's.


Just curious.... Was the California Pizza kitchen in the circle center food court from 95 to 98 time frame? It was on the side of the court close to Washington street. Or what was that restaurant if not....

Just curious.... Was the California Pizza kitchen in the circle center food court from 95 to 98 time frame? It was on the side of the court close to Washington street. Or what was that restaurant if not....

There was one at Keystone Fashion Mall years back.

Just curious.... Was the California Pizza kitchen in the circle center food court from 95 to 98 time frame? It was on the side of the court close to Washington street. Or what was that restaurant if not....
No. I think that was called Carlifornia Cafe and was unrelated to the C P K.

Does anyone know the status of the Consolidated Building? It is one of my favorite buildings downtown and I hate to see it rot.

Also, does anyone know the status of the banking center apartments?

Try doing it for a living. :lol:

Same template Staff report for about 10 different requests...insert 4 specific paragraphs and be done. :nuts:

The banking center isnt dead as far as I have heard. Its just moving along slowly at the moment.

Im happy that trailside was approved but it looks like the same 3-5 story building is popping up on every corner now. Would it kill them to add a little variety to the designs?

Specifics?

Does anyone know the status of the Consolidated Building? It is one of my favorite buildings downtown and I hate to see it rot.

Also, does anyone know the status of the banking center apartments?
No info about a sale or anything for the Consolidated Building, but if you haven't seen it, there's lot of cool info in this listing packet when it was last on the market:

http://www.onepropertyplace.com/images/PkgConsolidatedbldg.pdf

No info about a sale or anything for the Consolidated Building, but if you haven't seen it, there's lot of cool info in this listing packet when it was last on the market:

http://www.onepropertyplace.com/images/PkgConsolidatedbldg.pdf

Cool info packet, thanks.

Obviously, both the Consolidated and Illinois buildings would make great apartments. It's always disappointing to see them empty.

I wish a developer would get creative with the lack of parking and create housing in both for IUPUI students without cars. There are tons of students from abroad that would eat those units up.

I am not sure how I forgot about this project but as I was driving along I70 this afternoon, headed toward the airport, I noticed a new tower popping up in the skyline to the east of LOS on Kentucky Ave. It is a 4-story concrete building that if I recall correctly is called the "Indy Telecom Center." It is actually equal to the height of a 7 or 8 story residential or hotel building. It looks like it may have a pretty decent impact on the skyline from the South and West.

Im not sure if this is good news for downtown but houseless people have to be housed somewhere in the colder seasons. I hope it at least looks good.

http://www.ibj.com/leading-questions-wheeler-ceo-focuses-plans-for-more-beds/PARAMS/article/24527

A while ago, someone asked about the "no right turn" sign in the south bound, right lane of Capitol at South St. --- whether it would be permanant. No it is not. The barricades are down and you can turn there and drive past LOS on South Street. It seems like the Cultural Trail from Maryland to at least the RR underpass is done. Now they have the left lanes on Capitol closed though, as they have Georgia Street between Illinois and Capitol completely shut down to traffic while they do underground utility work for the Pedestrian improvements on Georgia.

Wishard construction has steel support beams sticking out of the ground at least one story high now.

The apartment project at 10th and Indiana had construction crews working there today. Not sure what they were doing, but construction trucks were moving around.

Nothing major -- but thought I'd post a few things.

interesting

The MPO released a transit vision document today on their website. Its a draft version, but its pretty interesting.

I wrote a short analysis of some of the high points
http://www.urbanindy.com/2011/01/14/indianapolis-mpo-released-transit-vision-document/

There is also a link to the document itself there.

Saw a story on wish tv talking about a commuter tax bill in thi years legislature. Nothing related to transit but if you live in one county and work in another you could be subject to a paying a tax. Good for places like Indy which have a large number of suburban commuters. Guess we'll see how it plays out. Story said the money would be used to fill the gap left by property tax revenue declines

Not a major development but still newsworthy I suppose:


http://www.indystar.com/article/20110117/BUSINESS/101170356/Community-Health-build-12M-Eastside-medical-facility?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com

The MPO released a transit vision document today on their website. Its a draft version, but its pretty interesting.

I wrote a short analysis of some of the high points
http://www.urbanindy.com/2011/01/14/indianapolis-mpo-released-transit-vision-document/

There is also a link to the document itself there.

The project priority table is interesting. I wonder if this will have any effect on the plans to move forward with the NE Corridor Rail project, since the South Corridor and Downtown Circulator rail projects ranked higher.

Table 3: Project Priorities
Project
Priority Index
Priority Ranking
IUPUI-LoDo Circulator-BRT
4,530
1
Keystone Crosstown - BRT
4,129
2
10th St-Lilly Circulator - BRT
3,804
3
North-South Corridor - BRT
3,664
4
38th St. Crosstown - BRT
2,685
5
East-West Corridor - BRT
2,506
6
South Corridor - Rail
1,450
7
IUPUI-LoDo Circulator - Rail Upgrade
1,159
8
10th St-Lilly Circulator - Rail Upgrade
828
9
Northeast Corridor - Rail
706
10
North-South Corridor - Rail Upgrade
630
11
East-West Corridor - Rail Upgrade
417
12
Northwest Corridor - Rail
413
13
Source: HNTB

Saw a story on wish tv talking about a commuter tax bill in thi years legislature. Nothing related to transit but if you live in one county and work in another you could be subject to a paying a tax. Good for places like Indy which have a large number of suburban commuters. Guess we'll see how it plays out. Story said the money would be used to fill the gap left by property tax revenue declines

Story is at http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/politics/state_politics/commuter-tax-gains-steam-at-statehouse

Very interesting that it's being proposed by a legislator from Kokomo. Indiana's mid-size cities have this in common with Indianapolis: they are job centers to which a fair number of people drive from out-of-county. (When I worked in Logansport years ago, it was common for people to commute from there to Kokomo.)

Maybe this is a case where Urban Indiana could stand together for something right and sensible.

Not sure which buildings these are.
http://www.ibj.com/mass-ave-property-owner-gets-foothold-on-virginia-avenue/PARAMS/article/24650

Another old IPS school has a public hearing sign outside -
Minnie Hartman School 76 at Sherman & Michigan

Not sure which buildings these are.

Another old IPS school has a public hearing sign outside -
Minnie Hartman School 76 at Sherman & Michigan

Sherman & Michigan (actually Sherman & Vermont) is to be the new site of the IMPD East District HQ. I think that's School 78.

Not sure which buildings these are.
http://www.ibj.com/mass-ave-property-owner-gets-foothold-on-virginia-avenue/PARAMS/article/24650

Another old IPS school has a public hearing sign outside -
Minnie Hartman School 76 at Sherman & Michigan

They're just south of the awesome new Tortas place.

It's a dog eat dog world when it comes to attracting jobs. Indy is trying to take advantage of the recently approved tax hikes in Illinois to lure businesses away:


http://www.indystar.com/article/20110118/BUSINESS/301180004/Ballard-Illinois-ad-Bring-business-Indy?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com

The buildings are bound by Norwood, Noble, and Virginia. Toward the city on Virginia there is one office (possibly empty), the tortas place, and then Stevens Street. It is next door to the Fletcher Arts site.

BTW the owner of the Tortas place is a great guy from Chicago named Felipe. I love that his operation is simply him and his wife. Highly recommended.

I saw the dome at UIndy today and it was very disappointing. You can barely see the dome over the other buildings.

There is an open house at the convention center tomorrow from 1030 to 2 and I am going. Here is the link: http://www.ibj.com/smaller-meetings-key-to-convention-center-expansion/PARAMS/article/24705

Re the new "domed" practice facility at UIndy: Sounds good to me if you can barely see the dome over the other buildings on campus. Who wants to see an ugly, huge white bubble looming over their neighborhood. Its not like its some spectacular piece of architecture. The less you see of it -- the better, in my opinion.

Indianapolis logistics firm Backhaul Direct LLC will invest $1.7 million to grow its downtown operation, adding nearly 325 new jobs over the next four years.

State officials announced the expansion plans Thursday morning.

Indiana Economic Development Corp. offered the company as much as $2 million in performance-based tax credits and up to $75,000 in training grants based on the job-creation plans. The city will consider an additional property tax abatement at the request of Develop Indy.

Backhaul Direct now employs about 70 at its 1 Virginia Ave. headquarters, where it intends to lease additional space.

It ranked 13th last year on IBJ’s list of fastest-growing private companies, reporting revenue of more than $18.9 million in 2009, up from $9.4 million in 2007.

Founded in 2004, the company manages transportation and distribution of freight across the United States and overseas—connecting customers who have products to ship with carriers that can deliver it. In 2009, the firm launched BD Managed Services, a subsidiary that manages IT and telecommunications services for companies in the logistics industry.

The company said it will begin hiring customer service, information technology, sales and management positions immediately.

"Backhaul Direct chose to remain in Indiana because of the strong support and commitment from the state of Indiana and city of Indianapolis," Chief Operating Officer Nick Hoagland said in a prepared statement. "Over the past six years, our business has seen tremendous growth because of our great Hoosier work force and the advantages and cost savings that Indianapolis and Indiana have to offer."

www.ibj.com

The term "commuter tax" is a misnomer. Almost all income taxes are based on where work is performed. At Accenture, if I worked in another state, I was required to file taxes in that state for all the work I performed there. I then got a credit for that off my taxes (either in Indiana or Illinois, depending on my residence that year). Only in Indiana are local income taxes based primarily on where you live.

If the state administered local income taxes like it administers state income taxes, there would be nothing to debate. That's how I would frame the issue.

went to the convention center open house yesterday and it was nice. there was one large convention space in the center that essentially looked like a giant warehouse but other than that it looked top notch. I was pleasantly surprised that my trip took me from the cube on South st near lucas oil all the way to circle center without stepping outside in the cold. I am just hoping that the skywalk expansion remains open a large amount of the time, for purposes like getting to south street or getting to WRSP without having to cross west st in the same way it remains open for those navigating the government center or using the mall.

the next logical step in skywalk construction is to configure a connection to Conseco.

Only in Indiana are local income taxes based primarily on where you live.

With apologies to Robert Frost...

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.


But it is not a good difference. I believe that this quirk of Indiana law is based in anti-city sentiment, in the rural-suburban alliance of legislators that always seems to materialize.

Think about it. Small county seats around the state are often in the economic orbit of larger cities a county over...or in another state entirely. There's a lot to gain for suburbs and non-urban counties in the current state of affairs.

the next logical step in skywalk construction is to configure a connection to Conseco.

That's what the Georgia Street upgrade is for.

http://daisuke.freeforums.org/htc-goes-all-in-with-7-surround-hd7-7-trophy-and-7-mozart-t82.html

That's what the Georgia Street upgrade is for.

That will get you from the convention center to conseco and back but I am talking about a way for out of towners to get to restaurants and shopping from a large event at conseco. Or a form of connection from their hotel to conseco. The most valuable aspect of the skywalk is the hotel connectivity. There is little hotel connectivity to conseco. The georgia street updates are nice BUT they will not connect conseco to the tourism and convention industry the way the rest of the system is connected.

Not sure what this means for the councils feelings on North of South.

http://www.ibj.com/vote-on-north-of-south-financing-delayed/PARAMS/article/24771

That will get you from the convention center to conseco and back but I am talking about a way for out of towners to get to restaurants and shopping from a large event at conseco. Or a form of connection from their hotel to conseco. The most valuable aspect of the skywalk is the hotel connectivity. There is little hotel connectivity to conseco. The georgia street updates are nice BUT they will not connect conseco to the tourism and convention industry the way the rest of the system is connected.

Well you are right that they will not connect them in the same way that the rest of the facilities are connected.

But I think the Georgia Street project is the correct type of development. Foster streetlife and get people out of the gerbil tubes. It will make for a more vibrant pedestrian environment in an area that is fairly dead thanks to pan am plaza. There is always the chance that it could fall on it's face, but I hope that is not the case

Well you are right that they will not connect them in the same way that the rest of the facilities are connected.

But I think the Georgia Street project is the correct type of development. Foster streetlife and get people out of the gerbil tubes. It will make for a more vibrant pedestrian environment in an area that is fairly dead thanks to pan am plaza. There is always the chance that it could fall on it's face, but I hope that is not the case
As does the Cultural Trail connection south to LOS and north to points north, east and west.

Well you are right that they will not connect them in the same way that the rest of the facilities are connected.

But I think the Georgia Street project is the correct type of development. Foster streetlife and get people out of the gerbil tubes. It will make for a more vibrant pedestrian environment in an area that is fairly dead thanks to pan am plaza. There is always the chance that it could fall on it's face, but I hope that is not the case

Amen. I was just talking to some people last night about how gerbil tubes ruin street/business interaction.

That will get you from the convention center to conseco and back but I am talking about a way for out of towners to get to restaurants and shopping from a large event at conseco. Or a form of connection from their hotel to conseco. The most valuable aspect of the skywalk is the hotel connectivity. There is little hotel connectivity to conseco. The georgia street updates are nice BUT they will not connect conseco to the tourism and convention industry the way the rest of the system is connected.

It's only a block from Conseco into Circle Centre (the east doors of Nordstrom), a block and a half to the Omni. Both lead into GerbilTubeWorld.

Our iconic city flag and colors have been disrespected at the hands of DPW.

May I present the new www.indy.gov

From what I understand, an individual with "branding experience" within DPW decided we needed to "tell a new story."

So we get a new website.

Fine.

I am not opposed to redesigning a website.
I am not opposed to updating strategies and narrative.

What I am opposed to, is the arbitrary and trendy redesign of our city's "logo" (in other words, the city flag).

The city flag and its colors are not up for "rebranding" or "a new story" period. (That includes city-representing logos inspired by the flag on a website.) We already possess one of the best icons of any city in this country. Our flag and colors are classic, iconic, and timeless. They don't need to be improved and won't be.

The logo on this new site is a blatant middle finger to the identity that has already been established. It is a selfish creation perpetrated by a short-sighted amateur who believes that a "refresh" was a valid option regarding the city logo and colors.

And while the flag itself has been left untouched, this new "logo" injects confusion and fragments the identity of the city. This is not what we want.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Indianapolis.svg/175px-Flag_of_Indianapolis.svg.png



http://www.indy.gov/Style%20Library/2010/images/logo-header.gif


---


I am continually frustrated with DPW and the amount of damage they continually wreak on our city.

The fact that their power to harm reaches even our city's identity is very disconcerting.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think you are 100% wrong in your argument regarding this new "brand." I believe that this new mark is a rather well thought out reinforcement of the Indianapolis identity. Also, I see these to marks as parts of a strong and forward brand/identity for the city.

Taking the flag logo/mark as it is, it very much illustrates the layout and placement of Indianapolis not only for the city, but for Marion county and the state of Indiana. The blue can be seen as any of those three things and the center can be taken as monument circle, the center of the county, or the capital of Indiana. The white of the flag can be interpreted simply as city streets, the four cardinal directions, or the crossroads of America. All these elements create a strong brand.

Consider then, that this new logo/mark maintains all of these features yet instead of being rectilinear and ending at a fixed border (i.e. city/county line or state boundry) it is more regional and encompassing. Indianapolis is more than the center of the state, the largest city in the state, or the state capital. It has reached a maturity that demands that we see ourselves as more than that. I for one find this new mark refreshing and full of vision.

The strength of this new mark is that is immediately identifiable in tandem with the existing brand, it does not detract from the existing brand, and it broadens the concept of what Indianapolis is. I do not believe that it's resemblance to a seal is a mistake either. I would hardly call this a rebrand but more a brand refinement or enhancement.

I am not confused by this brand at all.

I'm honestly on the fence about this new logo. I love the city flag, and as ablerock already pointed out it's widely considered to be one of the best logos/flags for any city in the US.

But I don't think anyone would advocate for this new design to act as a replacement for the design of the city flag.

Consider then, that this new logo/mark maintains all of these features yet instead of being rectilinear and ending at a fixed border (i.e. city/county line or state boundry) it is more regional and encompassing. Indianapolis is more than the center of the state, the largest city in the state, or the state capital. It has reached a maturity that demands that we see ourselves as more than that. I for one find this new mark refreshing and full of vision.

The strength of this new mark is that is immediately identifiable in tandem with the existing brand, it does not detract from the existing brand, and it broadens the concept of what Indianapolis is. I do not believe that it's resemblance to a seal is a mistake either. I would hardly call this a rebrand but more a brand refinement or enhancement.

This is all complete marketing BS.

It is not an "enhancement" or a "refinement." It is not "full of vision." It does not "broaden the concept of what Indianapolis is."

It does not add anything of actual value to the timeless mark we already have. It only fragments and dilutes our existing visual language.

The new mark will look dated in less than 5 years.

This is what should be used. (with appropriate typography)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5167/5378010024_276d298214_o.jpg

This is a short-sighted decision. This is a huge mistake. And a missed opportunity to strengthen the existing identity.

I don't mind the creative license with scaling and altering some of the imagery of the flag, but why choose such stupid colors? These colors do not relate to the identity of Indianapolis in any way. Changing the colors is just as bad as changing the circle into a square the star into an octagon. If the colors were the real colors it would work to tie the "new" identity to the real identity. I would be ok with that idea. I see this logo and I feel like Florida gators fans can identify with it more than Indianapolis residents.
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens2323416_1228617743floridalogo.jpg http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs301.ash1/23267_114169208615985_8240_n.jpg

BTW, I chose my user image when I setup my account because our flag is bad ass... Not because it needed to be completely changed.

I see this logo and I feel like Florida gators fans can identify with it more than Indianapolis residents.

My thoughts exactly. What is this (relatively) new obsession with orange?

I like the logo except for the colors. It's clearly based on the city flag, and I disagree that there should be some rule that the flag is the only piece of visual branding the city can use. Also, I'm not really clear on what the DPW has to do with this. The logo in question has been around since shortly after Ballard took office.

I like the logo except for the colors. It's clearly based on the city flag, and I disagree that there should be some rule that the flag is the only piece of visual branding the city can use. Also, I'm not really clear on what the DPW has to do with this. The logo in question has been around since shortly after Ballard took office.

My source informed me that someone from DPW is responsible.

Like you say, it's obviously based on the flag. So why is the tweak necessary? It communicates nothing new, contrary to what Arthur_indy would have one believe.

If it's so close to the real thing, why not just use the original? Change for change's sake is foolish and a sign of amateur, unsophisticated design principles.

The mark has been weakened into a very generic symbol. They minimized the elements and scale that made it timeless and recognizable to both locals and visitors. Now it's just a big star with a thin circle around it. Remove the word Indianapolis and it gets worse.

Our city is now represented by a generic, glossy web 2.0 button.

Our city is now represented by a generic, glossy web 2.0 button.

At least the wet floor was omitted:

http://i53.************/28sy6fs.jpg

http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens2323416_1228617743floridalogo.jpg http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs301.ash1/23267_114169208615985_8240_n.jpg

Instead of these colors it should be something closer to this.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/TTtAvHqTdzI/AAAAAAAAE3c/ugaVxW1w_tI/Indy%20Brand.jpg

(It's not perfect, but its the best I could do with what I have here right now)

I'm way late to this, but Sunday-Bloody-Sundae, the "Care/Don't Care" artwork is being tweaked, I believe to make the lights a bit brighter. It will be back.

The reflective star is trendy and will look dated, oh, in a minute or two. And orange is very popular right now. Emphasis on right now.

http://i53.************/28sy6fs.jpg

Arthur, is this your design?

Don't take it personally, but I agree with Ablerock. It's very amateurish. (if that's a word)

And orange is very popular right now. Emphasis on right now.

Not really, Donna. An old study I read on color meaning in branding suggested that orange is the color of "value" or "inexpensive".

Orange circle with a "wet floor" just makes me think of a 1970s laundromat, with its long line of alternating beige and orange dryer fronts and wet terrazzo floor. :ohno:

Of course, if you believe Aaron Renn, that's a perfect branding element for a low-cost, low-service city. :lol:

Some recent photographs

Ivy Tech Multimodal Parking Garage
http://www.urbanindy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/IvyTechMultiModal.jpg

St Vincent Rehab for Ivy Tech (from the north side)
http://www.urbanindy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/IvyTechStV.jpg

This one's still floating around in official city correspondence as well. Anyone know if Mayor Peterson used it too?

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=ddc0cad2a9&view=att&th=12db9f12ea61e4f4&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw

Historically preserved building at 10th and Pennsylvania burns tonight. Firefighters have been battling for over an hour and look to have a long night from the size of the flames and the intensity of the fire. Looks ironically suspicious for a building that has been on the market as long as it has, with the historical preservation behind it, to burn with such intensity. Keep an eye on this area for future redevelopment now that the current building appears to be a loss.

Historically preserved building at 10th and Pennsylvania burns tonight. Firefighters have been battling for over an hour and look to have a long night from the size of the flames and the intensity of the fire. Looks ironically suspicious for a building that has been on the market as long as it has, with the historical preservation behind it, to burn with such intensity. Keep an eye on this area for future redevelopment now that the current building appears to be a loss.

I also find it fishy that this building burned so well. It was gone in just a few hours. It was no secret that this building was for sale and had issues with reuse and parking. Looks like whoever did this achieved their goal. congrats indy - using chicago style redevelopment tactics to get around historic preservation. Wouldn't it have been safer to just level this building in the first place? It was no secret that it was dangerous, but instead they wanted to preserve a dangerous eyesore.

Bazbeaux opens across the street in 3 Mass today

I hadnt been keeping up with the bazbeuxs move. I thought that there was an issue with not having enough room in the new place... that was the last I had heard

I hesitate to bring this up as the officer remains in the hopsital with grave injuries, but the Star’s coverage of the shooting of the IMPD officer’s shooting is yet another example of the local media’s “if it bleeds, it’s East” pattern. Temple Avenue is the 2600 block east. 3400 North Temple is four blocks from Washington Township and 25 blocks from Warren Township. I think that “near northeast” is probably the best description where this happened, but if the choice is between “east side” or “north side,” then it happened on the north side.

Again, I don’t want to seem petty in the face of a real tragedy, but when I talk to relatives and they mention shootings that occur in “my part of town,” it’s unfortunate. The east side has enough problems as it is, but I think the media makes the impression worse than the reality by attributing every crime that occurs on the far side of College Avenue to “the east side.”

I don't have an issue with the city, or even a private business altering the flag and using it for promotional purposes. It's not like they've changed our flag, they're just mixing it up a little. (okay, a lot in this instance) Besides, there are plenty of alternate versions of our flag on Municipal vehicles where the star has been replaced by text already.

Think about how many versions there are of the US flag in company logos across the US. I don't have a problem with that, and wouldn't have a problem with Indy businesses playing around with the flag of indianapolis either.

Our iconic city flag and colors have been disrespected at the hands of DPW.

May I present the new www.indy.gov

From what I understand, an individual with "branding experience" within DPW decided we needed to "tell a new story."

So we get a new website.

Fine.

I am not opposed to redesigning a website.
I am not opposed to updating strategies and narrative.

What I am opposed to, is the arbitrary and trendy redesign of our city's "logo" (in other words, the city flag).

The city flag and its colors are not up for "rebranding" or "a new story" period. (That includes city-representing logos inspired by the flag on a website.) We already possess one of the best icons of any city in this country. Our flag and colors are classic, iconic, and timeless. They don't need to be improved and won't be.

The logo on this new site is a blatant middle finger to the identity that has already been established. It is a selfish creation perpetrated by a short-sighted amateur who believes that a "refresh" was a valid option regarding the city logo and colors.

And while the flag itself has been left untouched, this new "logo" injects confusion and fragments the identity of the city. This is not what we want.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Indianapolis.svg/175px-Flag_of_Indianapolis.svg.png



http://www.indy.gov/Style%20Library/2010/images/logo-header.gif


---


I am continually frustrated with DPW and the amount of damage they continually wreak on our city.

The fact that their power to harm reaches even our city's identity is very disconcerting.

I also find it fishy that this building burned so well. It was gone in just a few hours. It was no secret that this building was for sale and had issues with reuse and parking. Looks like whoever did this achieved their goal. congrats indy - using chicago style redevelopment tactics to get around historic preservation. Wouldn't it have been safer to just level this building in the first place? It was no secret that it was dangerous, but instead they wanted to preserve a dangerous eyesore.

I am not sure the point of your rant? (1) Without any proof, you assert that the cause of the fire was arson--it may or not be. Also, you assume that the motive for arson must be to allow redevelopment of the property? While that is possible, IF it was arson, it could just as easily be the work of a pyromaniac or otherwise unstable person. Or, quite possibly, it was simply a fire accidentally caused by a homeless person trying to keep warm--a building that is gutted to expose the woodwork burns quickly. You are most definitely jumping the gun with your accusations. (2) Then, you somehow blame the whole city for the fire? Why is it "congrats indy?" (3) Next, you somehow blame historic preservation for this event? Were you calling for the city to tear it down? The city can only order a demolition when a building is an imminent threat to public safety--e.g. in immediate danger of collapse, which I hardly think was the case with this building.

It was a fire, nothing more and nothing less.

Really impressed with our GOP lawmakers opting to exempt bars from the smoking ban....

uh, isn't that why this thing is being debated?? If anything, this bill worsens conditions by saying it is okay for NURSING HOMES of all places to provide a smoking area.


My faith in Indiana is fading lately...

Really impressed with our GOP lawmakers opting to exempt bars from the smoking ban....

uh, isn't that why this thing is being debated?? If anything, this bill worsens conditions by saying it is okay for NURSING HOMES of all places to provide a smoking area.


My faith in Indiana is fading lately...

Yeah, that was depressing. I was cautiously optimistic when the Senate committee approved it, but same old, same old. I would prefer a statewide ban, but would settle for progress in Marion County, which I imagine will be forthcoming soon, under either this administration or another. My goodness, tobacco-loving Louisville has smoke-free bars, and we don't. The nightmare scenario would be a ban that doesn't allow more restrictive bans than the state ban.

I hesitate to bring this up as the officer remains in the hopsital with grave injuries, but the Star’s coverage of the shooting of the IMPD officer’s shooting is yet another example of the local media’s “if it bleeds, it’s East” pattern. Temple Avenue is the 2600 block east. 3400 North Temple is four blocks from Washington Township and 25 blocks from Warren Township. I think that “near northeast” is probably the best description where this happened, but if the choice is between “east side” or “north side,” then it happened on the north side.

Again, I don’t want to seem petty in the face of a real tragedy, but when I talk to relatives and they mention shootings that occur in “my part of town,” it’s unfortunate. The east side has enough problems as it is, but I think the media makes the impression worse than the reality by attributing every crime that occurs on the far side of College Avenue to “the east side.”

You know I agree. :)

Then there's the "southeast" variant...seems like everything from "3" to "6" on the Indy clock face (Washington around to I-65) gets that "southeast" tag.

A shooting at 1400 Olive last night was tagged "southeast". That location is just two miles from Monument Circle...about the same distance east and south as the soccer park at 16th & Monon is east and north.

Are we the only people who understand directions in a city with a blinkin' street grid???

Easy rule of thumb: if it's more north or south than east, then it's "north" or "south".

I am not sure the point of your rant? (1) Without any proof, you assert that the cause of the fire was arson--it may or not be. Also, you assume that the motive for arson must be to allow redevelopment of the property? While that is possible, IF it was arson, it could just as easily be the work of a pyromaniac or otherwise unstable person. Or, quite possibly, it was simply a fire accidentally caused by a homeless person trying to keep warm--a building that is gutted to expose the woodwork burns quickly. You are most definitely jumping the gun with your accusations. (2) Then, you somehow blame the whole city for the fire? Why is it "congrats indy?" (3) Next, you somehow blame historic preservation for this event? Were you calling for the city to tear it down? The city can only order a demolition when a building is an imminent threat to public safety--e.g. in immediate danger of collapse, which I hardly think was the case with this building.

It was a fire, nothing more and nothing less.

That is my opinion. Just like an asshole, we all have one. I just feel like a few people on this board have to pick apart literally every word I type instead of being more productive and adding development/redevelopment related posts. It has been said on this forum many times that it would be hard to redevelop that site, so this is simply my opinion of how a developer can "get rid of an obstacle." I am certain this parcel will now be redeveloped into apartments with ample PARKING which is IMO the reason why they couldn't redevelop this historical building in the first place. I am blaming the city because they were preserving an old building that was a potential danger as it illegally housed homeless (which was obvious) and was bound to be a fire hazard. So due to the red tape of everything needing to be historically accurate and approved by the city, the whole building was demolished instead of giving variance to only preserve the finer aspects of this building (The Penn facing facade). The Penn st facade could have been saved while the rear of this building couldve been gutted to allow room for parking and modern conveniences. Instead, all we have now is a pile of bricks and yet another historical building gone.

^^I lived in said building years ago. I had just moved to Indy from Chicago. The place was crawling with cockroaches and it was hot as hell in the summer. However it is all I could afford at the time. I remember never using the stove or oven to cook. As soon as you lit the pilot light on the antique appliance bugs would crawl out. :)

I believe it was set on purpose. Who? I won't speculate. James Chalfant is listed as the owner of Chadwick Partners, Inc. according to the Secretary of State. Found this story from last year....

http://www.indy.com/posts/couple-buy-neighbor-s-home-at-tax-sale-so-he-can-stay

Bazbeaux opens across the street in 3 Mass today

Thanks. I was wondering about that.

That is my opinion. Just like an asshole, we all have one. I just feel like a few people on this board have to pick apart literally every word I type instead of being more productive and adding development/redevelopment related posts. It has been said on this forum many times that it would be hard to redevelop that site, so this is simply my opinion of how a developer can "get rid of an obstacle." I am certain this parcel will now be redeveloped into apartments with ample PARKING which is IMO the reason why they couldn't redevelop this historical building in the first place. I am blaming the city because they were preserving an old building that was a potential danger as it illegally housed homeless (which was obvious) and was bound to be a fire hazard. So due to the red tape of everything needing to be historically accurate and approved by the city, the whole building was demolished instead of giving variance to only preserve the finer aspects of this building (The Penn facing facade). The Penn st facade could have been saved while the rear of this building couldve been gutted to allow room for parking and modern conveniences. Instead, all we have now is a pile of bricks and yet another historical building gone.

Sundae, consult a therapist, and I mean that with all seriousness--you clearly have some unresolved self-esteem issues. I am not sure why you are so defensive, but it is very unattractive coming from an adult. If you cannot tolerate a candid but civil response to what was a rather inflammatory posting (no pun intended), then that is your problem, not mine.

Also, the city did not landmark the building. It was on the National Register of Historic places, which doesn't mean much except that it limits the use of federal funds to demolish or significantly alter it. It was a very old building in need of rehabilitation on a somewhat bleak stretch of street, and that reality coupled with the recent financial crisis which has frozen up credit had more to do with the fact that nothing has been down with it, rather than any supposed "red tape." If you want to discuss issues of downtown parking problems and how they relate to the lack of adequate public transportation in Indianapolis, then please, let's have that discussion, rather than some angry rant about how it is the city's fault that someone allegedly burned a building down.

Sundae, consult a therapist, and I mean that with all seriousness--you clearly have some unresolved self-esteem issues. I am not sure why you are so defensive, but it is very unattractive coming from an adult. If you cannot tolerate a candid but civil response to what was a rather inflammatory posting (no pun intended), then that is your problem, not mine.

Also, the city did not landmark the building. It was on the National Register of Historic places, which doesn't mean much except that it limits the use of federal funds to demolish or significantly alter it. It was a very old building in need of rehabilitation on a somewhat bleak stretch of street, and that reality coupled with the recent financial crisis which has frozen up credit had more to do with the fact that nothing has been down with it, rather than any supposed "red tape." If you want to discuss issues of downtown parking problems and how they relate to the lack of adequate public transportation in Indianapolis, then please, let's have that discussion, rather than some angry rant about how it is the city's fault that someone allegedly burned a building down.

The personal attack is really unnecessary, and in fact the building is in the St. Joseph historic district, so the comments about historic preservation are not at all off base. Not saying I agree or that I'm familiar with the circumstances surrounding this building, but IHPC doesn't let people tear down buildings easily. The motive for arson seems to be there, and from the link mobyhead posted, this owner seems like a really shady character.

While we are on the topic of old buildings being reduced to piles of brick, the old apartment building near the corner of Washington and Oriental in Holy Cross has been leveled. This was a prime example of modern urban ruins in indy. For those who dont know which building I'm talking about, it is the one that used to say "Josephine" engraved above the front door. Im not sure what will happen to the other 2 buildings on the property but the land is for sale.

You know I agree. :)

Then there's the "southeast" variant...seems like everything from "3" to "6" on the Indy clock face (Washington around to I-65) gets that "southeast" tag.

A shooting at 1400 Olive last night was tagged "southeast". That location is just two miles from Monument Circle...about the same distance east and south as the soccer park at 16th & Monon is east and north.

Are we the only people who understand directions in a city with a blinkin' street grid???

Easy rule of thumb: if it's more north or south than east, then it's "north" or "south".

CDCguy, I don't get where you're coming from on this one. 1400 Olive is 1400 South and 1200 East. Sounds just about due southeast to me, plus the area (Fountain Square vicinity) is typically referred to as southeast. Is your beef that they didn't distinguish it as near-southeast to distinguish it from Franklin Twp?

By the way, the first article I saw on the Star about the shooting of Officer Moore labeled it as the northside. I figured that was only because the address was reported as the 3400 block of North Temple. Had it been around the corner on the 2600 block of East 34th Street, I suspect they would have called it the east side.

This past summer, the brick facade on that building collapsed onto the sidewalk and alley. The city stepped in and stabilized the building and has finally torn it down. Good riddance, not only was the building horribly unsafe, it had become crack central.

I don't know about the other buildings. I have seen at least 20 houses and buildings burn or be demolished by the city in the past 8 years in a 3 block radius of that property. It sounds horrible, but I'll tell ya.. everytime it happens less of the undesirable element remains, crime drops and the neighborhood becomes quieter and safer...

I have mixed feelings about this. I want restoration of course, but that area was so far gone.. maybe it's for the best at least some of the time. A vacant lot is a lot better than a structurally unsafe crack house filled with homeless squatters. Vacant lots can be built on.

While we are on the topic of old buildings being reduced to piles of brick, the old apartment building near the corner of Washington and Oriental in Holy Cross has been leveled. This was a prime example of modern urban ruins in indy. For those who dont know which building I'm talking about, it is the one that used to say "Josephine" engraved above the front door. Im not sure what will happen to the other 2 buildings on the property but the land is for sale.

CDCguy, I don't get where you're coming from on this one. 1400 Olive is 1400 South and 1200 East. Sounds just about due southeast to me, plus the area (Fountain Square vicinity) is typically referred to as southeast. Is your beef that they didn't distinguish it as near-southeast to distinguish it from Franklin Twp?

No. It's my beef that 1400 Olive it isn't southeast, it's due south of the inner loop. I get that SEND has tagged the area "southeast", but back in the 90's another organization called "Redevelopment/Revitalization of the Southside" (RRoS) existed to the east of Fountain Square, for which DMD created a neighborhood plan (http://indygov.org/eGov/City/DMD/Planning/Docs/LandUse/Neighborhood/rrosnp98.pdf).

We wouldn't call the soccer park at 16th & Monon "northeast", nor 16th & Fall Creek Park "northwest", and those locations have the same coordinates off-center north.

No. It's my beef that 1400 Olive it isn't southeast, it's due south of the inner loop. I get that SEND has tagged the area "southeast", but back in the 90's another organization called "Redevelopment/Revitalization of the Southside" (RRoS) existed to the east of Fountain Square, for which DMD created a neighborhood plan (http://indygov.org/eGov/City/DMD/Planning/Docs/LandUse/Neighborhood/rrosnp98.pdf).

We wouldn't call the soccer park at 16th & Monon "northeast", nor 16th & Fall Creek Park "northwest", and those locations have the same coordinates off-center north.
I hate to point this out, but the very neighborhood plan you linked identifies the area around 1400 Olive as "SOUTH-EASTSIDE" on pg. 3.

01/26/2011

I had a moment today to swing by the Trailside site. On the "walk" side of the pavers are being removed. If I remember correctly they poured a 4-6 inch buffer between the existing building (separated by expansion joint foam) so that it would be easier to not tear up the trail.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/TUByy8-iHJI/AAAAAAAAE34/3F-YuXzsTQY/s1100/photo%201.JPG

On the Davidson side it looks like they are making a second entry to the lot used by the trustee. It looks like they are digging to pour a curb cut/driveway.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/TUByzDgsQ0I/AAAAAAAAE34/oDg4AemuXsg/s900/photo%202.JPG

Are those trucks parked on the trail? :mad2:

The personal attack is really unnecessary, and in fact the building is in the St. Joseph historic district, so the comments about historic preservation are not at all off base. Not saying I agree or that I'm familiar with the circumstances surrounding this building, but IHPC doesn't let people tear down buildings easily. The motive for arson seems to be there, and from the link mobyhead posted, this owner seems like a really shady character.

Peanut, there was no personal attack--only a frank response to a rude remark by Sundae, and I stand by it 100%, and will repeat it, as necessary. He/she has serious issues and seems to go ballistic over any response that doesn't agree completely with what he/she posts. That is the sign of someone with issues that need to be dealt with on a forum outside of a development message board. Don't defend his/her over-the-top behavior.

Also, I find it strange that Sundae, and others, seem to have no problem accepting that the other two recent fires in the same building were caused by homeless people trying to keep warm (a circumstance neighboring witnesses seems to corroborate), but somehow this third fire just must be arson. Again, I don't know what caused the fire, and neither do you or anyone else.

Finally, regarding historic preservation, the fact that a building is in a historic district doesn't prevent it from being demolished, or altered--many buildings in designated historic neighborhoods have been altered or even demolished subsequent to the creation of a historic preservation district. However, a historic designation district simply requires all developers who want to put any project in the district to go through a special design review and permitting process. Sundae seemed to be suggesting in that the building was some sort of designated local landmark and could not be torn down or redeveloped as a facadectomy (as is being done with the old St. Vincent's Hospital), and this is simply not true.

I'm guessing you aren't a mental health professional. Frankly, it's a bit over the top for you to diagnose someone with "Serious issues" based on a few message board posts.

Now there are/were some obvious crazies on this site. I don't think that Sundae is one of them. Lord I miss Gych the Louisville supremacist...

Please, continue to criticize posts that you consider over the top. But please don't make it personal. It just isn't productive.

Peanut, there was no personal attack--only a frank response to a rude remark by Sundae, and I stand by it 100%, and will repeat it, as necessary. He/she has serious issues and seems to go ballistic over any response that doesn't agree completely with what he/she posts. That is the sign of someone with issues that need to be dealt with on a forum outside of a development message board. Don't defend his/her over-the-top behavior.

Also, I find it strange that Sundae, and others, seem to have no problem accepting that the other two recent fires in the same building were caused by homeless people trying to keep warm (a circumstance neighboring witnesses seems to corroborate), but somehow this third fire just must be arson. Again, I don't know what caused the fire, and neither do you or anyone else.

Finally, regarding historic preservation, the fact that a building is in a historic district doesn't prevent it from being demolished, or altered--many buildings in designated historic neighborhoods have been altered or even demolished subsequent to the creation of a historic preservation district. However, a historic designation district simply requires all developers who want to put any project in the district to go through a special design review and permitting process. Sundae seemed to be suggesting in that the building was some sort of designated local landmark and could not be torn down or redeveloped as a facadectomy (as is being done with the old St. Vincent's Hospital), and this is simply not true.

If only people voiced their opinions to the people who matter versus bantering on a message board.

If only people voiced their opinions to the people who matter versus bantering on a message board.

Private messaging works great sometime too. I got into it one time with another forumer at another site. Turns out we get along great now and are good friends. :)

Are those trucks parked on the trail? :mad2:
Hey, they only said the trail would remain open, not that you could actually use it!

I'm guessing you aren't a mental health professional. Frankly, it's a bit over the top for you to diagnose someone with "Serious issues" based on a few message board posts.

Now there are/were some obvious crazies on this site. I don't think that Sundae is one of them. Lord I miss Gych the Louisville supremacist...

Please, continue to criticize posts that you consider over the top. But please don't make it personal. It just isn't productive.

By your reasoning, it also would not be productive to write a smart-aleck remark that "opinions are like assholes," indulge in melodramatic victimhood by claiming that everyone is out to get you simply because someone disagrees with a post you wrote (and in my first post, I said nothing about the poster, I only politely disagreed with his/her comments), and then end with a hypocritical remark that you wish people would post more "productive" remarks on this site.

Again, I wrote what I wrote, and I meant what I wrote, and I stand by my comments--word for word. My remark was in reference to the manner in which Sundae chose to respond to me, and perhaps Sundae can reflect on this and choose to respond in a different manner the next time someone disagrees with him/her. This is the end of the debate about what I wrote because I am not going to entertain it any longer.

As for development issues in the Indianapolis, I am curious if anyone has heard any recent news about the group HARMONI's pedestrian enhancement and streetscape beautification plans for Meridian-Kessler and Butler-Tarkington.

Im so excited for the trailside development. That end of Mass Ave is DEAD and I would love to see the neighborhood feel of mass ave extend all the way to the 10th st revitalization

When it comes to the new dome on the southside at UIndy, I find it far less interesting than the dome that already exists at the keystone ave exit. What is that used for anyway?

Are those trucks parked on the trail? :mad2:

Yeah, but it was only a crew disassembling walk side of the trail. I don't think it's worth making a stink about as of yet; they were working on the actual trail. If the demo and construction teams think that the trail is a parking lot, then thats a different story...

By your reasoning, it also would not be productive to write a smart-aleck remark that "opinions are like assholes," indulge in melodramatic victimhood by claiming that everyone is out to get you simply because someone disagrees with a post you wrote (and in my first post, I said nothing about the poster, I only politely disagreed with his/her comments), and then end with a hypocritical remark that you wish people would post more "productive" remarks on this site.

Again, I wrote what I wrote, and I meant what I wrote, and I stand by my comments--word for word. My remark was in reference to the manner in which Sundae chose to respond to me, and perhaps Sundae can reflect on this and choose to respond in a different manner the next time someone disagrees with him/her. This is the end of the debate about what I wrote because I am not going to entertain it any longer.

As for development issues in the Indianapolis, I am curious if anyone has heard any recent news about the group HARMONI's pedestrian enhancement and streetscape beautification plans for Meridian-Kessler and Butler-Tarkington.

omg, SHUT UP

Really impressed with our GOP lawmakers opting to exempt bars from the smoking ban....

uh, isn't that why this thing is being debated?? If anything, this bill worsens conditions by saying it is okay for NURSING HOMES of all places to provide a smoking area.


My faith in Indiana is fading lately...


I think it actually makes Indiana look bad to visitors. Many larger cities already have the ban in bars/clubs. To visit Indiana and then check out a bar/club filled with smoke is not appealing.

I think it actually makes Indiana look bad to visitors. Many larger cities already have the ban in bars/clubs. To visit Indiana and then check out a bar/club filled with smoke is not appealing.

I still don't understand why bars/clubs don't go smoke-free to appeal to everyone who wants to be in a bar/club without smoking. If that's what visitors want, why wouldn't business owners/operators cater to them? Can non-smokers just not resist the temptation to be in clubs that allow smoking, then regret it afterward, but then do it again and again?

Can non-smokers just not resist the temptation to be in clubs that allow smoking, then regret it afterward, but then do it again and again?

Stay Classy Indiana, you stay classy.



In 10 years people everywhere will look at smoking in bars like we look at smoking inside a hospital or airplane. It's a relic from another era.

^^^^ thats the point exactly... Someone, from somewhere else, seeing our city/policy as a relic from the past. Smoking is bad for health, bad for business, and bad for our image. This isn't about rights and freedoms, its about the future of our city and the people who live here.

No one is saying that you can't smoke, just step outside and be considerate of the world around you. It will have positive effects on many aspects of our economy and the quality of life in Indianapolis.

When it comes to the new dome on the southside at UIndy, I find it far less interesting than the dome that already exists at the keystone ave exit. What is that used for anyway?

I used to live right next door to this dome. It's indoor tennis. First it was a club but now it is owned by U of I. There is a similar "dome" on the west side of Keystone on National. It's an indoor driving range for golfers.

As for development issues in the Indianapolis, I am curious if anyone has heard any recent news about the group HARMONI's pedestrian enhancement and streetscape beautification plans for Meridian-Kessler and Butler-Tarkington.

I heard (could just be rumors so take this for what it is, or discuss further) that there might be some issues with parks department liability if Harmoni upgrades the park at the corner of Westfield and Meridian.

Currently the park has some kind of almost passive liability status where the park owes almost no duty to make the park safe, just to prevent latent dangers. Once they improve the park they owe an increased duty to make the park safe, in the ordinary sense of the word safe. This increases both liability and insurance costs, and the maintenance costs... I am not sure if the parks are willing to pay this cost right now for this park.

While the upgraded park would be nice, it is sandwiched between 5 lane Meridian Street, and Westfield. I am not convinced of the utility of upgrading this park instead of doing something that will create more benefit than just looking pretty for the people who drive by it. I do like the idea, but it seems like there are probably some higher impact projects in Meridian Kessler/Butler like: paving the canal path, creating some benches and scenic patio spaces along the canal (like near the monon in broad ripple), fixing many of the sidewalks and curbs, redoing/rethinking the 57th and Illinois shopping area, etc.

As for the planters and medians, I like the idea of calming Meridian, and making it look good.

When it comes to the new dome on the southside at UIndy, I find it far less interesting than the dome that already exists at the keystone ave exit. What is that used for anyway?

It is an indoor shooting range for golf... it's been there for over 10 years now.

.... paving the canal path, ....

Bad idea.

I still don't understand why bars/clubs don't go smoke-free to appeal to everyone who wants to be in a bar/club without smoking. If that's what visitors want, why wouldn't business owners/operators cater to them? Can non-smokers just not resist the temptation to be in clubs that allow smoking, then regret it afterward, but then do it again and again?

My guess is that bar owners historically have presumed that non-smokers would be more tolerant of secondhand smoke than smokers would be of a no smoking policy. I think that typically has been true, but I think the tide is turning (thanks in large part to full smoking bans in most civilized places and the partial ban in Indianapolis). I've been a social smoker at various times in my life, but mostly not. It used to be that going to bars and restaurants involved a haze of cigarette smoke to the point that it wasn't all that noticeable. Now that it's a rarity, it's all I can think about when I'm in such a place.

Because I have kids, I don't go out nearly as much as I used to, but I find that the less common smoking in public places becomes, the less tolerant I am of it when I encounter it. My wife and I used to go to Claddagh downtown a few times a year. Won't do it anymore, even though I love the fish and chips (and, of course, their smoking policy means that kids can't come in anyway).

I heard (could just be rumors so take this for what it is, or discuss further) that there might be some issues with parks department liability if Harmoni upgrades the park at the corner of Westfield and Meridian.

Currently the park has some kind of almost passive liability status where the park owes almost no duty to make the park safe, just to prevent latent dangers. Once they improve the park they owe an increased duty to make the park safe, in the ordinary sense of the word safe. This increases both liability and insurance costs, and the maintenance costs... I am not sure if the parks are willing to pay this cost right now for this park.

While the upgraded park would be nice, it is sandwiched between 5 lane Meridian Street, and Westfield. I am not convinced of the utility of upgrading this park instead of doing something that will create more benefit than just looking pretty for the people who drive by it. I do like the idea, but it seems like there are probably some higher impact projects in Meridian Kessler/Butler like: paving the canal path, creating some benches and scenic patio spaces along the canal (like near the monon in broad ripple), fixing many of the sidewalks and curbs, redoing/rethinking the 57th and Illinois shopping area, etc.

As for the planters and medians, I like the idea of calming Meridian, and making it look good.

I wrote a story about the work that is going to be done at that intersection. As far as the traffic calming work, HARMONI raised the local match to get the federal TE money to make this happen. As I understand it, that work should start sometime this year.

My guess is that bar owners historically have presumed that non-smokers would be more tolerant of secondhand smoke than smokers would be of a no smoking policy.

Lowest common denominator always wins out...

Bad idea.

Bad comment.

Please expand upon your comment so that you might change my mind. I was just rambling off a few things that I thought could have a greater utility than making a seldom used park at an awkward intersection. I am still open for discussion. Simply saying bad idea is a bad idea in this case.

My reasoning was that I know that I do not run on the canal around that area because it is not paved. I like running on smooth surfaces. I also ride a track bike, so gravel is not my friend.

Tell me more about why you don't like the idea so that I can learn more about the downside.

Bad comment.

Please expand upon your comment so that you might change my mind. I was just rambling off a few things that I thought could have a greater utility than making a seldom used park at an awkward intersection. I am still open for discussion. Simply saying bad idea is a bad idea in this case.

My reasoning was that I know that I do not run on the canal around that area because it is not paved. I like running on smooth surfaces. I also ride a track bike, so gravel is not my friend.

Tell me more about why you don't like the idea so that I can learn more about the downside.

I agree with you that they shouldn't be upgrading a park that won't be used. But they could just use the money for a daggone sidewalk all the way around it. When I lived in the neighborhood, I could not walk on a paved sidewalk from the east side of Meridian to the shops at 56th & Illinois: there is no sidewalk on 56th, and there is none on Westfield past the Chase branch.

I'm a little curious why you think anything needs to be done with the shopping area at 56th & Illinois (other than the gas station). It has been continuously 100% occupied by decent (many upscale) businesses for the past 30 years. I think that's Indianapolis' best single example of neighborhood node shopping mixed with local dining. It's far better than the 49th-to-54th College Avenue strip, which is now virtually all food/beverage/ restaurants and no retail (except for Fresh Market at 54th and liquor store at 49th).

I have to laugh at your contention that the canal path should be paved; you're obviously young. It should stay gravel, and the paved paths that we have should have a wider gravel shoulder so that older runners don't beat the hell out of their feet, ankles, knees, and hips while running. When I lived in the area and ran the Monon, you could always tell the middle-aged guys because they were running on the foot of crushed stone on either side of the pavement. If you want to bike down the Canal on a road bike, there's already pavement on Westfield.

Bad idea.

Seconded.

Don't defend his/her over-the-top behavior.

There is no need to do anything but agree or disagree, and explain why, in a message board response; I disagree with offering mental-health notes here.

I do not think I know SBS in real life, and it's apparent that you don't. Even if (especially if) you are a mental-health professional, it's not appropriate to diagnose someone publicly. There is, as has been pointed out, a private message feature on SSC that you could use for that purpose.

^^^^ thats the point exactly... Someone, from somewhere else, seeing our city/policy as a relic from the past. Smoking is bad for health, bad for business, and bad for our image.

I agree completely, in that I hate smoking as well and love that it is losing support in all sorts of different settings. But I'm not sure that the "keeping up with the Joneses" approach should inform a policy, even though I know it often does. I just don't think it builds a lot of support, because there are plenty of people out there who see it as nothing more than jumping the bandwagon and will fight it with greater aggression than they otherwise would. A quantifiable effect on tourism would have more impact; a big life sciences convention rejecting Indy because of the lack of a comprehensive smoking ban would be a huge blow to the city.

As for the paving of the canal path, CDC Guy put it excellently. Also, I don't think a pervious surface should run so close to a relatively small, slow-moving, and vulnerable waterway; Westfield Avenue is enough. The effect might be negligible in something the size of White River, but creeks are particularly vulnerable to overflows when everything around them is paved. A good compromise for joggers who like pavement or in-line skaters (does anyone do that anymore?)--but not bicyclists--might be to build up an asphalt sidewalk on the other side of Westfield, which, IIRC, is pretty inconsistent even now.

Bad comment.

Please expand upon your comment so that you might change my mind. I was just rambling off a few things that I thought could have a greater utility than making a seldom used park at an awkward intersection. I am still open for discussion. Simply saying bad idea is a bad idea in this case.

My reasoning was that I know that I do not run on the canal around that area because it is not paved. I like running on smooth surfaces. I also ride a track bike, so gravel is not my friend.

Tell me more about why you don't like the idea so that I can learn more about the downside.
Because the existing non-paved surface is nice for running, walking and biking; I ride my fixed track bike on it without a problem other than dodging some holes and puddles, which is an issue on most streets. I believe the existing trails are a good mix of paved and unpaved and there is a better use for trail $s elsewhere, mainly making more trails.

Also, it is my understanding that HARMONI includes adding a sidewalk on 56th St. from Illinois east at least to Penn.

I believe that continued maintenance of any new park impmrovements at the triangle park is a big issue as lack of quality maintenance in existing parks is maybe the primary INDY PARKS issue. I guess that HARMONI may be dealing with the continued maintenance issue.

Thanks for the reasoning on paving the canal path. I get it.

So, the 56th and Illinois upgrade idea would be purely esthetic. Functionally it is a great area, so arguably it does not need any help. The Harmoni proposal is generally esthetic improvement so why not add some planters and improve the general street scape at 56? All of my suggestions were not needs, just ideas. Don't forget that right now the park is a functional park... it just isn't pretty.

... The Harmoni proposal is generally esthetic improvement ....
I think Harmoni is mainly about COMPLETE STREETS: making improvements to slow vehicle traffic and make it better for pedestrians and bikes.

I think Harmoni is mainly about COMPLETE STREETS: making improvements to slow vehicle traffic and make it better for pedestrians and bikes.

Exactly.