I'll even take a chain -- maybe Jack in the Box wants this location instead of banging their head against the wall of city regulations at 16th St?

Same regs apply there. All the way up Meridian, Penn, and Illinois to 30th, in fact.

Same guy would be getting paid to argue against it there, too. :)

Has anyone ever heard anything in the past 12 years about Di Rimi?

Yes. The property was foreclosed by Stockyards Bank after the developer defaulted. There's some stuff happening, and something should be public within a month or two.

Boy, is the thread coming to me. :lol:

it would help to get the grocery up and operating - the one that was announced about a year ago to go into the empty former Mercedes (or BMW?) dealership there around 24th and Meridian.

Former Cadillac dealership. It's next door to Mercedes. Interior cleanout has started (windows are soaped/painted and big dumpster in back is full) but no site and development plan has been submitted for Regional Center approval.


Also -- on a related note --- does anyone know what is planned to go into the former twelve or thirteen story Sheraton Hotel (back in the 70s) building (which most recently was converted into a "rehabilitation" center) that is located along Meridian, right next to and to the north of the Ivy Tech midtown campus? ....(Hopefully the re-do of the Winona site will also include a good amount of residential as well.)

The former Stouffers/Sheraton/Indianapolis Training Center is now owned by Ivy Tech thanks to a large grant from Lilly Endowment. It will be the Central Indiana Workforce Development Center, as well as home of the culinary arts program that (inexplicably) was going to move to the Glick JA Center next door to Walmart at Keystone and South River Road. No housing plan was announced; Ivy Tech leaders continue to insist that their students are "different" and don't want near-campus housing.

Strangely enough, the key parcel in the area is probably the former Sandor Development HQ and retail property, which runs from 22nd and Meridian all the way up to the Sheldrake parking lot. A nice apartment project there would help support the existing and planned retail.

Moochie: "Oh, Bop and Vicks... the bar that was to open in it... poof. gone. New owners."

^^ What does that mean? What bar - that was to open where? In the first floor of 146 E. Washington Street? (What is Bop and Vicks?)

Same regs apply there. All the way up Meridian, Penn, and Illinois to 30th, in fact.

Same guy would be getting paid to argue against it there, too. :)
I know, but there aren't the same issues with this site, not being adjacent to residential property. And it's not subject to Regional Center Guidelines. And it's an existing building. The only issue is a drive-through and didn't the city (and a certain CDC) already support/approve a drive-through for Dunkin' Donuts? (which I know isn't transferable, but there's precedent.)

:)

Moochie: "Oh, Bop and Vicks... the bar that was to open in it... poof. gone. New owners."

^^ What does that mean? What bar - that was to open where? In the first floor of 146 E. Washington Street? (What is Bop and Vicks?)

Bop and Vick's was a bar that was going to open on the 1st floor of 146 E. Washington. The previous owners sold the building to Litebox, who plan to use the entire building. Poof, bar gone.

I think, however, that Virginia Kay's failure was an instance of a poorly capitalized business failing under it's own weight and not necessarily an indication of the current viability of that specific location.

I think the issue was more about not getting the expected big wholesale business for the doughnut factory. After a year of start-up, their posted customer list was only about a dozen locations. I suspect their shop out-sold all the other locations combined.

There's no point in running a doughnut shop that couldn't make its own doughnuts if the factory has to shut down.

I think the owners may have decided not to keep pumping money in if they weren't going to crack the c-store and truck-stop market in a big way.

The location probably needs a lunch-dinner place, probably pizza or some kind of Asian, with a significant carry-out or delivery business. Something like Marco's, Jack's, or a family-owned Asian place.

I think the issue was more about not getting the expected big wholesale business for the doughnut factory. After a year of start-up, their posted customer list was only about a dozen locations. I suspect their shop out-sold all the other locations combined.

There's no point in running a doughnut shop that couldn't make its own doughnuts if the factory has to shut down.

I think the owners may have decided not to keep pumping money in if they weren't going to crack the c-store and truck-stop market in a big way.

The location probably needs a lunch-dinner place, probably pizza or some kind of Asian, with a significant carry-out or delivery business. Something like Marco's, Jack's, or a family-owned Asian place.
I think we're actually saying the same thing: that site is viable for business and Virginia Kay's failed for reasons other than the siting of their retail shop.

I know, but there aren't the same issues with this site, not being adjacent to residential property. And it's not subject to Regional Center Guidelines. And it's an existing building. The only issue is a drive-through and didn't the city (and a certain CDC) already support/approve a drive-through for Dunkin' Donuts? (which I know isn't transferable, but there's precedent.)

:)

It is subject to Regional Center approval if a new tenant wants to change anything...awnings, paint color, signs, anything about its appearance.

The RC district has a "North Meridian Corridor" section that runs from 16th to 30th, from the alley west of Illinois to the alley east of Penn.

And yes, the CDC board held its nose and supported a variance for Dunkin' at that location. They did so partly because the site is so tight that it doesn't seem as if a restaurant can make it without one. With two down now, that argument may hold water...for that site.

The urban planning mistake was made a couple of decades ago: the Library should just have bought the former gas station to square off their development. Then this remnant property wouldn't be an issue, and the Library Services Center (2450 N. Meridian) would really be at 24th & MERIDIAN. Instead, it's on 24th & Illinois with a 3-layer parking lot screen (iron picket fence, mound, and greenery) along a whole block of Meridian which is as uninteresting and ugly as a block-long blank wall. :bash:

the Library should just have bought the former gas station to square off their development.

Maybe they'd put a permanent branch library/used book sale there.

(Note to self: meet with the new library CEO to suggest this.)

Mentioning that an Asian, family run restaurant might work in that stretch of Meridian in midtown reminded me that there was a restaurant like that for several decades - back in the 60's through the 80's. Can't remember the name right now - but it was on the east side of Meridian around 22nd or 23rd, I believe. It was one of the few places that lasted while many other restaurants left the downtown and near downtown areas.

Moochie: thanks for the explanation about Bop and Vicks --- had never heard about that project. Glad to hear about LiteBox moving ahead with its business plans though. After all of the media trashing they took - I was afraid the leader of that company might go running back to California. I'd love to see his company really do well and meet all of the projections that were initially announced. I'd be surprised if that happens, quite honestly -- but maybe. It would be great for him to see his plans come to fruition and then be able to face all of his nay-sayers and show them that his plans weren't just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I guess we'll see.

I think we're actually saying the same thing: that site is viable for business and Virginia Kay's failed for reasons other than the siting of their retail shop.

Yep. How can it NOT be viable for business when thousands of people work within a mile, thousands more go to school at Ivy Tech, and thousands more drive by?

And that doesn't even count all those rich yuppies who drove the old ladies out of their houses in Fall Creek Place... :lol:

Mentioning that an Asian, family run restaurant might work in that stretch of Meridian in midtown reminded me that there was a restaurant like that for several decades - back in the 60's through the 80's. Can't remember the name right now - but it was on the east side of Meridian around 22nd or 23rd, I believe. It was one of the few places that lasted while many other restaurants left the downtown and near downtown areas.

Jong Mea was at 2137 North Meridian, now a vacant lot between the Meridian @ 21 cluster and the Coulter Flats Condos.

The vacant building was demolished in 2007; the land is for sale.

There's still an Asian place just south of 16th & Illinois across from the vacant Payton Wells service and parts department.

^^ Yep --- that's it. I went there a few times. It was pretty nice - a sit-down place - and not a fast food or buffet type place. That was back when there weren't chinese restaurants on every other corner and in all of the tiny towns at the interstate exits across the country.

Anyone else with Meridian Corridor stuff? :)

Oh...Winona. If you haven't been by, it's down. The demolition funding source (Neighborhood Stabilization Program funds, or NSP) requires an affordable housing component to any future development.

The Children's Museum is the "lead development partner" with the City; they have a staff member who's well-versed in affordable housing development.

And Ivy Tech: the new-old St. Vincent building is nearing completion. Supports for the new gerbil tube over Illinois are going up.

^^ Yep --- that's it. I went there a few times. It was pretty nice - a sit-down place - and not a fast food or buffet type place. That was back when there weren't chinese restaurants on every other corner and in all of the tiny towns at the interstate exits across the country.

My ex-wife told stories of getting dressed up and going to Jong Mea when she was a child growing up on the north side, whenever an older aunt came to town.

I think many cities and towns had a "chop suey" place back in the day (I do not mean that as a slur; Jong Mea's own sign said that!). There was still one in downtown Logansport when I was on assignment there in the mid-80's. The proprietor was 60 or 70 then.

It's not everyday I find myself looking at Indianapolis on ArchDaily, a popular architecture website. And yet, today, there it was (http://www.archdaily.com/182193/top-10-american-downtowns/).

Livability.com recently released a compilation of the 10 best downtowns in the USA. Based on a rubric analyzing entertainment, planning, architecture, and green spaces they have come up with a list atypical of the cities typically found at the top of similar lists. Each of the cities on the list has a distinct and unique aura. Starting with Franklin, Tennessee, and topping out with Indianapolis, Indiana at number one...

^^ Nice!

cdc guy: "And Ivy Tech: the new-old St. Vincent building is nearing completion. Supports for the new gerbil tube over Illinois are going up."

Speaking of gerbil tubes -- I also recently noticed supports going up for one across W. 16th Street that will connect the new Neuroscience building to the large parking garage and the rest of the Methodist Hospital complex to the north.

FYI: The new airport terminal was just granted LEED certification. There was nothing about the level in the press release, so I'm assuming it is the lowest one, but this is still an achievement for them.

FYI: The new airport terminal was just granted LEED certification. There was nothing about the level in the press release, so I'm assuming it is the lowest one, but this is still an achievement for them.

While I appreciate the "effort" and it is a nice building, A brand new building replacing an existing building is almost never more efficient. A lot of energy went into creating the origional airport building that was simply lost. Plus, the new entrance for the airport requires a majority of the population to drive quite a bit further into HC to access it and I guess as we are splitting hairs, air travel is very unsustainable to begin with.

This is not to argue your point, it is good to see this kind of attention made towards large scale civic projects in the state, but ultimately, the LEED rating system is very flawed.

cdc guy: "And Ivy Tech: the new-old St. Vincent building is nearing completion. Supports for the new gerbil tube over Illinois are going up."

Speaking of gerbil tubes -- I also recently noticed supports going up for one across W. 16th Street that will connect the new Neuroscience building to the large parking garage and the rest of the Methodist Hospital complex to the north.

Yep. It'll connect Neuroscience directly to the People Mover and the rest of Methodist. The Center will have its own parking garage, to the southwest along Missouri St.

I've been avoiding 16th west of Capitol so I'm not up to speed on construction progress there.

The old terminal had been expanded and renovated many times. The nature of air travel changed enormously in that time period. So did Indianapolis. I don't think there was any feasible non-halfassed solution available with the old terminal, especially considering the very long taxi times.

The old terminal had been expanded and renovated many times. The nature of air travel changed enormously in that time period. So did Indianapolis. I don't think there was any feasible non-halfassed solution available with the old terminal, especially considering the very long taxi times.
Without knowing any facts or anything about LEED, coming from the east, I know I drive several more miles to get to the airport. Assuming most people going to and from the airport arrive from the east on I-70, thousands more gallons of gasoline are used to get to the new airport vs. the old. Maybe other energy-saving factors with the new terminal and how it handles airplanes more than mitigates this.

LEED has nothing to do with where the building is located.

LEED has nothing to do with where the building is located.

only LEED ND (neighborhood dev.) does, which the airport obviously didn't pursue

LEED has nothing to do with where the building is located.

That's not exactly true. In the current version of LEED, 18 points out of 100 are affected by where the building is located. In previous versions of LEED, which I assume is what the airport is certified under, there was less of an emphasis on location.
It is true though that neither version would penalize the new airport for its location versus the old one.

Ok, I hadn't checked on the criteria in quite some time, though I know there was a lot of criticism of LEED platinum buildings in the far burbs and suchs.

I just helped a maintenance guy paint over the big "BEAR" graffiti on 146 East Washington. I'm sure everyone's familiar with it, it's amazing to me that it's lasted as long as it has... 10-12 years maybe longer? Practically an Indy landmark... I've seen so many pictures with it in the media.

I actually felt kinda sad.. I'm sure that Bear (whoever that sleazy little gangbanger is..) will shed a tear.

http://indianapolisparking.net/bear.jpg

Yeah!! --- but I do slightly share your feelings of sadness over the disappearance of this long time signature on the side of that building.

BTW -- what about the paint job on the east side of that parking garage immediately north of the 146 E. Washington St. building and to the West of the City County Building (accessible on E. Market Street)? (You can see it in the upper right corner of your picture above.) That "mural" (or whatever you want to call it) must have been painted in the 70s - if not before. It is really peeling badly now. While the city (or whoever) is doing all of the excellent murals all over the place now -- that parking garage wall would sure seem like a prime opportunity for a new, creative paint job. Its eastern wall can be seen from the C/C building, as you're passing by on Delaware or coming toward the city from the east along Washington Street. Its western side, which can be seen from Market Street) might also benefit from a new paint job as well.

I suppose there could be some people getting upset however if a plan was presented to paint over this existing mural. In my opinion, it doesn't seem like it would be a terribly "wrong" thing to do. That mural is in such bad shape now - I don't think it would be missed much if a good replacement were proposed. I remember a dozen years ago or so when Weyland (or probably more appropriately - his project coordinators) wanted to do one of the giant whale paintings on the east side of what is now the BW3 restaurant on E. Washington (between the parking lot and the Barnes & Thornburg building). That plan involved painting over the existing mural of the 70's style cartoony runners circling around the side of the building. Ended up the paint-over was a big no-no -- and the whale ended up being painted on the north side of the IPS headquarters building downtown - near St. Clair Street.

Without knowing any facts or anything about LEED, coming from the east, I know I drive several more miles to get to the airport. Assuming most people going to and from the airport arrive from the east on I-70, thousands more gallons of gasoline are used to get to the new airport vs. the old. Maybe other energy-saving factors with the new terminal and how it handles airplanes more than mitigates this.

Taxi times for aircraft have been greatly reduced with the new terminal which saves far more in fuel than the additional fuel consumed by vehicles reaching the terminal.

I recently saw the guys doing the mural behind the Riley Bennett building checking out the Market street mural. I don't know if it's going to be worked on or if they were just admiring it. I'd love to see it restored.

Wyland is a jerk who does commercial crap hack work for profit under the guise of some "save the whales" charity or something. No true artist would consider painting over another's original mural. I'd really love to see that one restored as a period piece. It is highly unique and a true piece of local history.

Yeah!! --- but I do slightly share your feelings of sadness over the disappearance of this long time signature on the side of that building.

BTW -- what about the paint job on the east side of that parking garage immediately north of the 146 E. Washington St. building and to the West of the City County Building (accessible on E. Market Street)? (You can see it in the upper right corner of your picture above.) That "mural" (or whatever you want to call it) must have been painted in the 70s - if not before. It is really peeling badly now. While the city (or whoever) is doing all of the excellent murals all over the place now -- that parking garage wall would sure seem like a prime opportunity for a new, creative paint job. Its eastern wall can be seen from the C/C building, as you're passing by on Delaware or coming toward the city from the east along Washington Street. Its western side, which can be seen from Market Street) might also benefit from a new paint job as well.

I suppose there could be some people getting upset however if a plan was presented to paint over this existing mural. In my opinion, it doesn't seem like it would be a terribly "wrong" thing to do. That mural is in such bad shape now - I don't think it would be missed much if a good replacement were proposed. I remember a dozen years ago or so when Weyland (or probably more appropriately - his project coordinators) wanted to do one of the giant whale paintings on the east side of what is now the BW3 restaurant on E. Washington (between the parking lot and the Barnes & Thornburg building). That plan involved painting over the existing mural of the 70's style cartoony runners circling around the side of the building. Ended up the paint-over was a big no-no -- and the whale ended up being painted on the north side of the IPS headquarters building downtown - near St. Clair Street.

I'd really love to see that one restored as a period piece. It is highly unique and a true piece of local history.

Hear, hear.

The artist for the Washington Street mural was James McQuiston. It's called "The Runners."

The Delaware Street mural across from CCB (also fronting little-known Court St) is by Roland Hobards. It was originally painted on both walls.

Both are from the 70s.

(The two bigger photos below were taken very recently by a friend.)

James McQuiston
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3293/2602021279_8113699358.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/296432_10150328805129310_678114309_7773773_1895617337_n.jpg

Roland Hobards
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/313080_10150328781124310_678114309_7773715_500036620_n.jpg

Taxi times for aircraft have been greatly reduced with the new terminal which saves far more in fuel than the additional fuel consumed by vehicles reaching the terminal.

I don't know if that's true, but I know that it seems pretty inefficient for 80-90% of users to have to drive another 8-10 miles to get to a terminal that's located about one mile from the old one. I would imagine it would've been difficult, but it certainly would've been nice if they could've figured out a way to design it to be accessed from the east.

I just helped a maintenance guy paint over the big "BEAR" graffiti on 146 East Washington. I'm sure everyone's familiar with it, it's amazing to me that it's lasted as long as it has... 10-12 years maybe longer? Practically an Indy landmark... I've seen so many pictures with it in the media.

I actually felt kinda sad.. I'm sure that Bear (whoever that sleazy little gangbanger is..) will shed a tear.

http://indianapolisparking.net/bear.jpg

It hasn't been there that long, maybe 5ish years. I know the person who did it and they aren't in a gang or sleazy. Also it doesn't say "BEAR"

Didn't the old Indy airport only have long taxi times after they built the new runway in anticipation of the new airport? A friend who grew up here says the runway was built first knowing that we'd have to deal with long, long taxis until the new airport was built.

That long drive out then long loop back to get to the new airport bugs me every time.

Is the artist James McQuiston the same as the architect Jim McQuiston? I like both those murals very much - super hip! (by now)

Is the artist James McQuiston the same as the architect Jim McQuiston?

Yes

That 4B was to be funded by planned/pre-approved sewer and stormwater rate increases. The "savings" being delivered by a combination of DPW re-engineering the stormwater system and Citizens beating down costs are supposed to be reflected in lower-than-projected ratepayer increases.

So if things go right, EddieB's progeny will see lower rates with this deal than without it.

If. Things. Go. Right.

And if they made the transfer without forcing the ratepayers to pay the $280 million dollars, their water rates would definitely not increase as much. And if they did not borrow $170 million against Pilot funds (30 years), their sewer rates would not increase as much as they will or as expected.

And, of course, all debt owed by the water company was never an obligation of the city, it was and remains an obligation of the ratepayers.

Vandalism is sleazy. Period. Tell me who the little fuckups are so I can send a bill.

It hasn't been there that long, maybe 5ish years. I know the person who did it and they aren't in a gang or sleazy. Also it doesn't say "BEAR"

Question: What is your general feeling on the future of Marion County? Positive, negative, other. And why do you feel that way?

Question: What is your general feeling on the future of Marion County? Positive, negative, other. And why do you feel that way?

Too soon to tell. Ask after Super Bowl.

Even then, next 2-3 years are key. Abandoned house teardowns, nature of infrastructure improvements, future of IndyConnect will all become clear. City budget wil need to stabilize at a sustainable no-gimmick level. Politically, either the Mayor & Council will play nice, or the Dems will go ugly & stupid early. Any of these things could go really bad.

Professionally, I'm required to say that it's always sunny in Indianapolis. I'm optimistic.
:-)

Question: What is your general feeling on the future of Marion County? Positive, negative, other. And why do you feel that way?

I'm largely optimistic. My thinking is that in my lifetime, suburban sprawl will start reversing itself as those communities prove to be unsustainable. High oil prices and the economic malaise that accompanies it aren't going away, and most large cities with a lot of available land for development will begin to repopulate.

I'm not optimistic that there will be a magic bullet, ie; Nuclear Fusion Solar, Wind etc. that will solve our energy needs any time in the next century. It will become necessary to centralize our populations to conserve energy and save the money it costs to maintain roads, have police, fire, utilities out in the boonies.

Repopulation = more tax dollars = better schools, infrastructure etc.

It hasn't been there that long, maybe 5ish years. I know the person who did it and they aren't in a gang or sleazy. Also it doesn't say "BEAR"
Nice.

I'm largely optimistic. My thinking is that in my lifetime, suburban sprawl will start reversing itself as those communities prove to be unsustainable. High oil prices and the economic malaise that accompanies it aren't going away, and most large cities with a lot of available land for development will begin to repopulate.

I'm not optimistic that there will be a magic bullet, ie; Nuclear Fusion Solar, Wind etc. that will solve our energy needs any time in the next century. It will become necessary to centralize our populations to conserve energy and save the money it costs to maintain roads, have police, fire, utilities out in the boonies.

Repopulation = more tax dollars = better schools, infrastructure etc.

I generally feel this way as well. There has been a lot of rhetoric about doing the right thing, but it will be interesting to see how much enthrenched folks fight against change when it comes to really doing what a lot of people think needs to be done.

Question: What is your general feeling on the future of Marion County? Positive, negative, other. And why do you feel that way?

I am very frustrated. It seems the suburban nature of MC drives the political agenda. It is not possible to have a viable road based sprawl system period, but it is not viable to have a great public transportation system when fighting for the same funding. We have taken some very positive steps as a city towards design and urban public spaces, but they are similar to putting a poster over a hole in the wall. Indy has serious issues, not just in the core or inner neighborhoods, but everywhere. It is obvious that we can't afford roads, new schools, additional pressures from subdivisions and the services that they demand. While this is more of a surrounding county issue, it impacts the entire region. The city has a crisis of identity I believe. We focused so much on expanding outward and have tried to create a very attractive CBD, but the inner ring neighborhoods have suffered greatly. At somepoint, as others have mentioned, we need to look seriously at who we want to become. Indy has great potential to create a very attractive place to live and a sustainable way of doing it, but surrently we take the half-assed approach to make some changes, but operate in the same general way. I do have hope........

I'd say generally positive. The County isn't too "crowded" or densely developed yet - and I say that in a positive way - in that there is room to continue growing and filling in some of the areas that need densifying (and hopefully do it in the right way). There seem to be some good plans in place for how to make those infill improvements. For example - continued growth at the IUPUI and Medical Center campus; growth at the W. 16th bio tech / research campus linked with growth at the med center and the IU Health - Methodist campus; improvements in the SE part of downtown - with City Way, Virginia Avenue improvements, a strengthened Fountain Square; I'm seeing improvements in the mid north (between Fall Creek Place and Meridian Kessler; also - improvements occurring on the mid-east side (between Woodruff Place and Irvington). The GM Stamping plant site offers potential for re-use. Also -- new planning and rezoning initiatives will help assure that more dense and mixed types of development will be able to occur along future transit corridors. I see recognition that transit improvements are necessary - and have good optimism that a funding plan will be approved sometime in the next year or two.

Currently, a message seems to be getting out that there are three primary things that need to be focused on for the city/county: improving education, improving transit and improving neighborhoods. Its a simple plan - but the message seems to be getting out. The mayor and Melina Kennedy both mentioned these issues a lot during the campaign and Mayor Ballard has continued to talk about those three issues after election day. It seems the media - including this week's IBJ - have been picking up on it.

I believe there is a good plan in place to continue upgrading the sewer and water infrastructure and also the roads and sidewalks. I would also say that generally positive things have been happening lately with local arts and cultural activities.

I'd say that despite the negative things that have been happening nationwide with the economy - there have been a lot of good things happening in Central Indiana - including some things at the state level. The lease of the toll road allowed Indiana to continue building roadway infrastructure at a very high level when many parts of the country were unable to do so. With plans in place to upgrade US 31 to the north and build I-69 to the SW - Indianapolis will have almost unparalleled interstate highway accessibility - with interstates (or in the case of US 31 - a grade separated, interstate-type roadway) going out in nine directions to the rest of the country. The new airport terminal also puts Indy in a good position to grow in the area of aviation accessibility - for passenger airlines and/or freight air services.

Sprawl has hurt the Central Indiana region quite a bit in the past -- but it seems there are trends that may help change this - such as a desire by many younger folks to invest in urban neighborhoods - and for retirees to look in the central city for opportunities to downsize their living arrangements and live closer to more amenities. If this trend picks up speed during the next decade - it may help slow down the expansion of sprawl and help support revitalization of more of the urban neighborhoods.

Indianapolis is getting more and more recognition for its strong downtown. Livability magazine just named Indy's downtown the most livable downtown in the US. The Super Bowl will bring more recognition to Indy -- I just hope there isn't some type of disaster that messes that up. The Cultural Trail will finally be finished next year - so people will be able to use the entire thing - coming into downtown from all directions on other bike lanes and bike trails. Hopefully there will be improvements occurring at the south end of Circle Centre that will help enliven its interaction with the Georgia Street project. Improvements on and around the Circle are also supposed to be happening.

There undoubtedly are negative issues that will continue to be important. Crime clearly needs to be focused upon. Improvements around many of the grayfields areas in the community - like Lafayette Square; the S. Madison / US 31 coorridor; E. 38th Street; Pendleton Pike; sections of Keystone Avenue - and a few others also need to be addressed.

The Indy region has been growing steadily for the past four or five decades at a rate that is stronger that any of the other large regions in the Midwest. I do not see this changing. I know this was a long answer - but this is the way I feel about the future of Marion County - as well as the larger Central Indiana region. I know this answer didn't just focus on Marion County - like your question asked, Arenn - but I think we need to look at the whole - and not break the region up into parts. Marion County, with its older infrastructure and lower average incomes - will probably struggle somewhat - relative to the surrounding counties -- but I think it will generally hold its own - and continue to be the strong core that it is for the rest of the region and the state. Some minimal type of multi-county revenue sharing might not be a bad thing - to help with some of the higher transportation and social service costs that seem to be at increasingly higher levels in Marion County. If that happens (which I don't anticipate occurring any time in the near future) it will help Marion County remain additionally stabile. I probably would be considered more of an optimist than the average person - but so be it. This is the way I see the short term future for Marion County (and its surrounding counties).

It is not possible to have a viable road based sprawl system period, but it is not viable to have a great public transportation system when fighting for the same funding.

I'm picking on one comment here, I realize, but other transit advocates seem to gloss over the fact that transit in Indy will be 100% bus for the short- to mid-term future. And the future of bus transit is attracting "discretionary" riders, those who will park their cars. And that will happen only when bus-riding becomes much easier and much more convenient (shorter headways, fewer transfers, quicker trips).

A road-based bus transit system requires good roads and navigable traffic.

Roads and transit are not mutually exclusive. Traffic-choking schemes and better bus transit are often at odds.

Interesting. I've long thought that the answer in Indy is going to be either really good or really bad. (Contrast Columbus, Ohio, where I think a middle of the road, somewhat above average outcome is the most likely scenario). When I wrote "Could Marion County Implode?" I would have put the odds of collapse near 20-25%. I've increased it to about 50%, maybe even more.

I really think Indianapolis is trending in the wrong direction, but what's more, I don't see any reason to believe that there's any key person or group out there looking to actually tackle these issues.

Among the very serious problems Indy (the city, I'm talking about) faces:

1. Far worse suburban out-migration than other peer cities. I just benchmarked versus the Ohio 3C's, and Indy even performs more poorly than Cleveland. This is part of a general demographic erosion, such as stagnant college degree attainment. Engagement level locally: low (though finally some awareness thanks to a recent IUPUI study)

2. Declining township schools and township regions generally. Yet all of the focus of the community leadership is the urban core (which I agree is important and has huge challenges, but is only about 15% of the puzzle). Engagement level locally: nearly zero.

3. A state government that is actively hostile to Indianapolis, including disempowering local governments through de facto spending caps, weak home rule powers, and a school funding formula that put suburban Indianapolis districts dead last in the state for per pupil funding. The state is imposing a one size fits all, least common denominator approach on all Indiana communities, regardless of what those communities want. Indy needs to figure out how to reposition its relationship with the state, at a minimum to enable Indy to do what it needs to do if it pays for it itself. Engagement level: nearly zero.

4. Fiscal sustainability and an end to gimmickry. This is related to point #3, but I don't see anything resembling this on the agenda. We'll never get control back from the state as long as there are repeated fiascos like the CIB, property tax crisis, demolishing a stadium that we owe more money on than it cost to build 30 years ago (and after the Lilly Endowment paid half of it).

5. General lack of urban neighborhoods comparable to peer cities around which to revitalize the urban core.

6. No vision for the city among local leadership. Ballard seems like a basically good blocking and tackling type guy, but he has no vision for the city. And neither did Melina Kennedy. One only needs to look at Carmel to see the difference strong visionary leadership makes. We don't have it, either in the CCB or in most cases outside of it.

7. Dysfunctional city government at many levels. Indy pays far below any peer city I've ever seen, for example. Heck, our friend cwilson was able to get a huge raise by leaving the city government and going to Cumberland. It's virtually impossible to recruit good talent. No reinventing government program is on the agenda.

8. A general stunning lack of even awareness of problems among civic leadership. These include things like the anti-business climate of the urban core, the lack of a pro-urban public policy, the exceptionally poor design of the streets (alas, I think most of the water company infrastructure upgrades are going for subpar projects), no gettitude on design, celebrating items that are already past their sell by date (such as the installation of Chicago style bike lanes that even Chicago now knows are not the way to do it), repeated "own goal" mistakes like renaming Georgia St. This is a problem in many Indy-class cities, but locally the problem is worse than I've seen anywhere else. I don't see much tackling of the fundamental issues. As I like to say, in Indy, even most of the people who get it don't get it. There's basically no one in an ability to make things happen who is engaged on these matters. Most of them perceive no issue.

9. On a related point to #8, local civic leadership (to say nothing of residents) are extremely parochial in their outlook. Globalization isn't on the agenda, for example. The quality of discussion in a civic forum in Chicago, New York, etc. is so much higher than what goes on in Indy it isn't even funny. Virtually everything in Indianapolis is seen in relation to Indianapolis and its history with a limited understanding of the world outside.

10. An almost exclusively top-down culture focused on "next big thing" type projects for redevelopment. Not ever problem is amenable to this approach, which I'll be the first to say in a strength in the right context like building an events business. That's why we end up with things like Fall Creek Place, which everybody thinks is a home run but which actually is a big part of the problem (ultra-low density literally like a small town in Indiana, poor design, and no ability to support any type of neighborhood infrastructure). It seems likely that FCP is going to end up being the model for redevelopment going forward, however.

11. Collapse of the economic base of Marion County. There have been stunning job losses. We've seen massive personal income drops. 3 of the 4 largest townships have declining assessed valuations => not good.

Other cities have some similar problems, so I don't want to go overboard here. But then again, those other cities might not make it either. My fundamental issue isn't with the presence of even huge issues, esp as I believe there is ample scope to deal with them and many positive opportunities to take advantage of. My problem is how many people locally esp in leadership positions both don't understand what's happening and don't feel any sense of urgency around change or addressing these fundamental problems if they do. So despite many things going on, I think the ship is drifting, and it's increasingly drifting in the direction of the reefs.

I don't think the end is nigh or anything. But way too many of the trend lines are going in the wrong direction.

As I mentioned above -- the message about the three-pronged focus for helping to revitalize Marion County -- continues to get out. Below is the IBJ story and below that is the editorial the ran over the weekend in the Star.

Civic leaders urge Ballard to tackle woes facing urban core
Francesca Jarosz
Indianapolis Business Journal
November 12, 2011

Community leaders are coalescing around a three-prong strategy to attract residents and capital to neighborhoods from just outside downtown to the borders of Interstate 465. It’s not yet clear whether all the initiatives will have the full support of Indianapolis Mayor Greg Ballard.

In Mayor Greg Ballard’s second term, he’ll be charged with helping to lay the foundation for a grand, decades-long strategy to reinvigorate Indianapolis’ urban core.

Efforts to attract residents and capital to neighborhoods from just outside downtown Indianapolis to the borders of Interstate 465 have been ongoing for years. But in the last few months, civic leaders have coalesced around a three-prong strategy to tackle the challenge.

Led by key community players such as the Greater Indianapolis Chamber of Commerce and the Central Indiana Corporate Partnership, various groups are crafting game-changing plans for each prong: K-12 education, mass transit and neighborhood revitalization.

Efforts include petitioning the Indiana General Assembly for a transit-related referendum; creating a new, decentralized model for Indianapolis Public Schools; and deploying money from the city’s utilities sale to urban renewal efforts.

It’s not yet clear whether all the initiatives will have the full support of Ballard, a Republican who garnered 51 percent of the vote in the Nov. 8 election.

That’s largely because civic leaders, who have been hashing out the details of the plans behind the scenes, have been waiting to see who would be elected mayor before sharing the specifics.

However, Ballard spokesman Marc Lotter said focusing on core neighborhoods would be among the key priorities for Ballard’s second term.

“We’ve done a great job over the course of multiple administrations and decades to build a successful downtown,” Lotter said. “We want to take that same energy and commitment and take it out to the next level.”

In fact, the current discussions parallel similar conversations among civic and government leaders in the 1970s, when they were mulling ways to revive Indianapolis’ struggling downtown.

Separate conversations and efforts took place for about 10 years before sports emerged as a unifying strategy, said Mark Miles, president of the Central Indiana Corporate Partnership.

“We’re at about that same place,” Miles said. “It’s like we’ve been dabbling, not thinking from a top-level strategy.”

Until now, that is.

This fall, Miles and other leaders have been beating the drum about how transit, schools and neighborhoods fit into a broader plan to revamp the city’s core. And earlier this month, the chamber devoted part of its annual leadership exchange to discussing elements of the specific initiatives in progress.

Transit a top priority

Mass transit is an issue Ballard and other leaders are preparing to push in the upcoming legislative session.

In February 2010, a regional transit task force released its proposal for enhancing transit service in Indianapolis and neighboring counties over 25 years. That plan was tweaked after the public weighed in.

Now, the same transit task force, which includes players from the chamber, CICP and the Central Indiana Community Foundation, is preparing another update to the $2.4 billion plan, which Miles said still includes expanded bus service and the addition of rail and bus rapid transit.

The latest plan also will provide more specifics about the expected return on the transit investment—and proposals to pay for it.

Most likely, funding would come through an increase in local income taxes, though the exact amount has yet to be determined, said Christine Altman, a Hamilton County commissioner who has been involved in the discussions. In the current economy, a quarter-percentage-point increase, for example, would be enough to expand bus service, while a half percentage point would fund the local share of the plan.

Altman said the group is projecting that federal dollars would cover about a third of the costs—less than the 50 percent previously assumed—leaving the local tab about $1.6 billion for the full plan.

The group is in talks with lawmakers about the numbers and the options for a referendum that would go to voters, who would have the final say on any tax hike. They’re targeting next fall for a referendum, Altman said, if legislators approve it.

Ballard played a key role in pushing the original transit plan, but he has not seen the latest iteration of it, Miles said. Even so, he already is making a push for expanded transit.

The day after the election, Ballard met with key Republican lawmakers to talk about transit. But he hasn’t committed to the need to propose an income-tax increase to pay for it.

Lotter said the administration is exploring other “creative” funding solutions for transit, but would not go into detail about them. He said the city needs buy-in from the General Assembly to pitch those ideas.

“We don’t know what the referendum would say,” Lotter said. “This is about the Legislature giving us support to make the referendum happen.”

Revamping schools, neighborhoods

Meanwhile, other groups are looking at ways to improve the K-12 education system. The Mind Trust, an education-reform group, expects to release a plan in coming weeks laying out a new model for operating Indianapolis Public Schools.

The proposal has been in the works about a year and a half, said David Harris, the group’s CEO. Neither he nor Miles would discuss it in detail, but they emphasized a decentralized structure in which individual schools have autonomy to produce results.

Sweeping education reforms passed by the Legislature this year are a positive step, but Miles said they were not drastic enough to create the kind of change that’s needed in IPS.

“We need a new approach to the system,” he said. “If you look at great [inner-city] schools, they’re run at the level of the schools. They’re not run by this great bureaucracy. Fundamentally, we think schools have a better chance of being outstanding when they’re run at the school level.”

Miles said Ballard had not been briefed in detail on The Mind Trust plan. The mayor has been a strong advocate for charter schools and other education reforms, but Lotter said he’s not ready to weigh in on an IPS overhaul until there’s more evidence of how the new reforms will play out.

“Any kind of discussions on those things would be a little premature,” Lotter said. “We’re barely scratching the surface on the reforms and what they can do.”

Ballard has, however, signaled support for discussions taking place among several groups about using money from the city’s water and sewer sale for large-scale neighborhood revitalization efforts.

Local Initiatives Support Corp., or LISC, last spring hired a Philadelphia-based consultant to shape a strategy for how it could be done in Indianapolis.

The idea is to select, through a competitive process, neighborhoods where public and philanthropic investment is needed to jump-start private development. Deploying some—or all—of the remaining $425 million in so-called Rebuild Indy money for revitalization projects in those areas could leverage other investment, said Bill Taft, LISC’s executive director.

It’s a similar strategy to the one deployed on the near-east side, where neighborhood-based groups and local Super Bowl organizers cobbled together $125 million for improvements now taking place.

Taft said the concept is still in the discussion phase, but initial conversations with Ballard’s administration have been positive.

“We’re still in the process of building a case that utilizing a significant portion of Rebuild Indy to take lessons of the near-east side to new neighborhoods is the best use of that money,” Taft said. “There’s a lot of interest in doing that.”

Lotter said the city still intends to fix bridges and streets with the money, but also signaled interest in using some of it for key neighborhood projects. He cited the blueprint for a tech- and life-sciences-related development near the IUPUI campus, dubbed 16 Downtown Technology District, as an example of what is possible.

“It’s just as important to focus [the money] on the transformational side,” Lotter said. “Not just sidewalks—but how can it enhance the neighborhoods’ redevelopment?”•

from the INDY STAR:

4 steps can take us from good to great
8:15 PM, Nov. 11, 2011 |

Indianapolis is a good city with the strong potential to be great.

With a newly re-elected mayor and a reconstituted City-County Council, now is an ideal time to contemplate Indy's path from the good that we all should celebrate to the great that we need to become.

Here are four important steps toward that goal:

Embrace a regional transit system: A day after his re-election, Mayor Greg Ballard signaled his intention to champion a regional transit system during the Indiana General Assembly's upcoming session. State representatives and senators from both parties should join Ballard in that effort.

Why is transit important? First, it's a key to further economic development as well as better-paying jobs for many workers who now lack the ability to move easily around the metro area. Second, better connectivity (a concept Ballard has touted) helps create a deeper sense of community and enhances residents' quality of life. Third, an efficient transit system can help bring businesses and residents back into the inner city.

The next year will be crucial as to whether a regional transit system becomes a reality in Central Indiana. Our future vitality as a region is dependent on finally moving forward.
Build a first-class educational system: The simple reality is that Central Indiana does not have enough highly trained workers to meet future economic needs. By the end of this decade, projections show that about 60 percent of jobs in the state will require a college degree or career certificate. But fewer than 40 percent of adults now have at least an associate's degree. That skills gap will hold the city back from reaching its potential in economic development, personal incomes and the tax revenues needed to offer top-notch amenities.

Rebuild neighborhoods: Far too many neighborhoods in this city, especially in the urban core, are in horrible shape. The city is repairing streets and sidewalks and knocking down abandoned houses in many of those areas. Those are essential steps. Targeted neighborhoods on the Near Eastside and along Indiana Avenue also have undergone or are scheduled to receive impressive makeovers.

But there are still deep needs in many neighborhoods. The city needs to launch an aggressive, sustained campaign to revive moribund neighborhood throughout Indianapolis.
Develop a stronger urban culture: This city must grow as a place where talented people, and not just those who already have ties to Indiana, want to live and work. To do that, we need to develop a more vibrant music scene, build a stronger food community, attract world-class artists and performers, and create attractive and accessible parks and trails. It's not that the city doesn't already offer such attractions, but our expectations need to grow. Excellence -- world-class excellence -- needs to become our goal throughout the city's culture.

Are we a better city than we were 20 years ago? Without question. Can we pause to rest on past achievements? Not without slipping behind.

My outlook on the future of Marion County depends primarily on if a large scale and effective mass transit system is constructed in the next few years.

Without excellent mass transit- neighborhood revitalization, improved schools, and inner city population growth are impossible.

Indianapolis will never see the level of inner city re-investment and development that places like Austin, Charlotte, Nashville, Columbus, Denver, Salt Lake City have experienced without a backbone of public transportation on which to build.

The aforementioned cities I consider to be Indy's peers and exemplify where I would like Indianapolis to be soon but we have a LONG way to go to reach their success in attracting and keeping the young, educated demographic. It is this demographic that breeds the creativity and entrepreneurship that are vital to any city's continued relevance and growth. The state's regressive social and economic policies are certainly holding Indianapolis back.

Ballard needs to champion mass transit and inclusiveness in his second term.

Arenn: what kind of stats do you have pertaining to your first issue that you mentioned in your post above: "1. Far worse suburban out-migration than other peer cities." ?

So you're saying that our suburban counties are seeing very strong out migration? That seems strange to me, considering how much growth is occurring in our suburban counties - particularly Hamilton, Hendricks, and Johnson Counties.

Are the people moving to other places in the US? (and not into Marion County?) or where are they "out-migrating" to?

I haven't seen any of the statistics on this, so its hard to make much of a comment -- but it surprises me. If anything - I thought the suburban counties around Indy were growing too fast, in relation to the region as a whole.

Any other thoughts you can provide on this?

Interesting. I've long thought that the answer in Indy is going to be either really good or really bad. (Contrast Columbus, Ohio, where I think a middle of the road, somewhat above average outcome is the most likely scenario). When I wrote "Could Marion County Implode?" I would have put the odds of collapse near 20-25%. I've increased it to about 50%, maybe even more.

I really think Indianapolis is trending in the wrong direction, but what's more, I don't see any reason to believe that there's any key person or group out there looking to actually tackle these issues.

Among the very serious problems Indy (the city, I'm talking about) faces:

1. Far worse suburban out-migration than other peer cities. I just benchmarked versus the Ohio 3C's, and Indy even performs more poorly than Cleveland. This is part of a general demographic erosion, such as stagnant college degree attainment. Engagement level locally: low (though finally some awareness thanks to a recent IUPUI study)

2. Declining township schools and township regions generally. Yet all of the focus of the community leadership is the urban core (which I agree is important and has huge challenges, but is only about 15% of the puzzle). Engagement level locally: nearly zero.

3. A state government that is actively hostile to Indianapolis, including disempowering local governments through de facto spending caps, weak home rule powers, and a school funding formula that put suburban Indianapolis districts dead last in the state for per pupil funding. The state is imposing a one size fits all, least common denominator approach on all Indiana communities, regardless of what those communities want. Indy needs to figure out how to reposition its relationship with the state, at a minimum to enable Indy to do what it needs to do if it pays for it itself. Engagement level: nearly zero. Suburban school districts don't need increased funding per pupil. Indy's suburban schools are excellent and are palatial compared to the crappy inner city IPS schools. Why do rich white kids need more funding than poor black ones?

4. Fiscal sustainability and an end to gimmickry. This is related to point #3, but I don't see anything resembling this on the agenda. We'll never get control back from the state as long as there are repeated fiascos like the CIB, property tax crisis, demolishing a stadium that we owe more money on than it cost to build 30 years ago (and after the Lilly Endowment paid half of it). The property tax crisis was not large scale in nature and led to the passage of property tax caps which have DECIMATED local school districts, especially IPS- which has bred further failing schools and a state takeover to place them in the hands of FOR PROFIT companies. How in the hell is that in the city's or student's interests?

5. General lack of urban neighborhoods comparable to peer cities around which to revitalize the urban core.

6. No vision for the city among local leadership. Ballard seems like a basically good blocking and tackling type guy, but he has no vision for the city. And neither did Melina Kennedy. One only needs to look at Carmel to see the difference strong visionary leadership makes. We don't have it, either in the CCB or in most cases outside of it. This is a problem throughout Indiana. Hoosiers in general are very skeptical of the outside world and anything different than their own limited personal experiences. I don't know how to change it but it needs to if Indiana is ever to emerge from cultural and economic backwater status.

7. Dysfunctional city government at many levels. Indy pays far below any peer city I've ever seen, for example. Heck, our friend cwilson was able to get a huge raise by leaving the city government and going to Cumberland. It's virtually impossible to recruit good talent. No reinventing government program is on the agenda. Paying higher salaries will require MORE government spending, which you appear to critique in point #4.

8. A general stunning lack of even awareness of problems among civic leadership. These include things like the anti-business climate of the urban core, the lack of a pro-urban public policy, the exceptionally poor design of the streets (alas, I think most of the water company infrastructure upgrades are going for subpar projects), no gettitude on design, celebrating items that are already past their sell by date (such as the installation of Chicago style bike lanes that even Chicago now knows are not the way to do it), repeated "own goal" mistakes like renaming Georgia St. This is a problem in many Indy-class cities, but locally the problem is worse than I've seen anywhere else. I don't see much tackling of the fundamental issues. As I like to say, in Indy, even most of the people who get it don't get it. There's basically no one in an ability to make things happen who is engaged on these matters. Most of them perceive no issue.

9. On a related point to #8, local civic leadership (to say nothing of residents) are extremely parochial in their outlook. Globalization isn't on the agenda, for example. The quality of discussion in a civic forum in Chicago, New York, etc. is so much higher than what goes on in Indy it isn't even funny. Virtually everything in Indianapolis is seen in relation to Indianapolis and its history with a limited understanding of the world outside.

10. An almost exclusively top-down culture focused on "next big thing" type projects for redevelopment. Not ever problem is amenable to this approach, which I'll be the first to say in a strength in the right context like building an events business. That's why we end up with things like Fall Creek Place, which everybody thinks is a home run but which actually is a big part of the problem (ultra-low density literally like a small town in Indiana, poor design, and no ability to support any type of neighborhood infrastructure). It seems likely that FCP is going to end up being the model for redevelopment going forward, however.

11. Collapse of the economic base of Marion County. There have been stunning job losses. We've seen massive personal income drops. 3 of the 4 largest townships have declining assessed valuations => not good.

Other cities have some similar problems, so I don't want to go overboard here. But then again, those other cities might not make it either. My fundamental issue isn't with the presence of even huge issues, esp as I believe there is ample scope to deal with them and many positive opportunities to take advantage of. My problem is how many people locally esp in leadership positions both don't understand what's happening and don't feel any sense of urgency around change or addressing these fundamental problems if they do. So despite many things going on, I think the ship is drifting, and it's increasingly drifting in the direction of the reefs.

I don't think the end is nigh or anything. But way too many of the trend lines are going in the wrong direction.

....

I remember Aaron's analysis of the 2010 census, and it showed that a lot of the people the Indy region is attracting, are people from around the state vs people from out of state, other cities, etc. This is disheartening on a couple of levels from an urban standpoint in that a lot of those folks come from even smaller town and thus don't even think in the context of proper urban form, funding it, creating policy to support it, etc.

That being said, it is not impossible to overcome those challenges. 7 years ago I was living in a small town and building race cars, and today, I am one of those advocates lobbying for great public transit so I can sell my car. Selling that to everyone though, is tough. There is no good way to explain this to everyone.

Transit isn't the only piece to making Indy a great place as Aaron has pointed out. But creating a good transit system that focuses rapid transit on the core will go a long way towards attracting people from other cities, or who would weigh Indy when weighing potential other urban mid-sized city hotspots.

Arenn: what kind of stats do you have pertaining to your first issue that you mentioned in your post above: "1. Far worse suburban out-migration than other peer cities." ?

So you're saying that our suburban counties are seeing very strong out migration? That seems strange to me, considering how much growth is occurring in our suburban counties - particularly Hamilton, Hendricks, and Johnson Counties.

Are the people moving to other places in the US? (and not into Marion County?) or where are they "out-migrating" to?

I haven't seen any of the statistics on this, so its hard to make much of a comment -- but it surprises me. If anything - I thought the suburban counties around Indy were growing too fast, in relation to the region as a whole.

Any other thoughts you can provide on this?

I'm talking specifically about people moving from Marion County to suburban counties, and vice versa. I don't have anything on me, but go to my flickr account to see charts of the 3C's:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/urbanophile

The first one - ohio-net-core-sub - is raw suburban out-migration. You'll see a steep dropoff throughout the decade. If I overlay Indianapolis on that, you'll see a dropoff, but it would leave the net out-migrant line well above all of the 3C's - almost 2x. Keep in mind that Cuyahoga County and Franklin County are much bigger than Marion County, let are losing net fewer people to the suburbs.

Arenn: after re-reading your post - do you mean out migration from Marion County to the surrounding counties? (related to my question above) If that is the case - that sounds very much like something that is occurring in Central Indiana.

^^ Thanks for the response. You were posting your answer as I was also typing mine.

I would say however that it makes sense if Cuyahoga and Franklin Counties are larger than Marion County - why they would have relatively fewer people moving out into the outlying counties. With more square mileage - there is likely more room in the outlying parts of those central counties for people to move into before moving into the next county. In Marion - they more quickly jump across county lines if they are moving from an Indianapolis neighborhood to an adjacent county. This is more true in the northern parts of Marion County where the suburbs quickly run into Hendricks, Boone, Hamilton and northern Hancock counties. In the SW and SE parts of Marion County - there is still room in Decatur and Franklin townships for people to move "out" to - before they run into the adjacent counties.

I'm picking on one comment here, I realize, but other transit advocates seem to gloss over the fact that transit in Indy will be 100% bus for the short- to mid-term future. And the future of bus transit is attracting "discretionary" riders, those who will park their cars. And that will happen only when bus-riding becomes much easier and much more convenient (shorter headways, fewer transfers, quicker trips).

A road-based bus transit system requires good roads and navigable traffic.

Roads and transit are not mutually exclusive. Traffic-choking schemes and better bus transit are often at odds.

I am not saying roads can't exist for transit to work. I am saying that our almost exclusive policy of funding auto based roadways will produce a bad environment for mass transit. With the tax payer subsidizing road construction, we are paying for people to drive as easy as ever while telling them we need their money for transit to relieve congestion which is relatively minor and fill in a bunch of environmental and community feel goods (I am being a bit sarcastic, but that is the view). If we spend over $3 B to construct a highway through southern Indiana, that is $3 B going to a project to add to SOV traffic and will never be returned for a smarter design, plus we will be stuck with the additional upkeep costs. Locally, Billions are going into 465 and even efforts to redo what has been done recently to "add capacity" as incorrect as that is. This is billions not going to mass transit and an arguement against the need for transit. Why would a resident vote to be taxed additionally for a NE train when they can drive on the hidden cost tax payer funded driveway, and I tend to agree. I don't want to pay more taxes either, but I'd like my share now to go towards smarter improvements. I hate the "We will take the tax and tell you what is best" method.....especially when driven by dinasaur practices and strong lobbyists. We can't provide adequate service for a comprehensive mass transportation system and fund sprawl tactics like road expansion and utility extensions.......won't work.

I am not saying roads can't exist for transit to work. I am saying that our almost exclusive policy of funding auto based roadways will produce a bad environment for mass transit. With the tax payer subsidizing road construction, we are paying for people to drive as easy as ever while telling them we need their money for transit to relieve congestion which is relatively minor and fill in a bunch of environmental and community feel goods (I am being a bit sarcastic, but that is the view). If we spend over $3 B to construct a highway through southern Indiana, that is $3 B going to a project to add to SOV traffic and will never be returned for a smarter design, plus we will be stuck with the additional upkeep costs. Locally, Billions are going into 465 and even efforts to redo what has been done recently to "add capacity" as incorrect as that is. This is billions not going to mass transit and an arguement against the need for transit. Why would a resident vote to be taxed additionally for a NE train when they can drive on the hidden cost tax payer funded driveway, and I tend to agree. I don't want to pay more taxes either, but I'd like my share now to go towards smarter improvements. I hate the "We will take the tax and tell you what is best" method.....especially when driven by dinasaur practices and strong lobbyists. We can't provide adequate service for a comprehensive mass transportation system and fund sprawl tactics like road expansion and utility extensions.......won't work.

Agree 100%. Even when Indyconnect came up at the MPO policy meeting and it was voted in with an emphasis on redesigning it properly, the right thing for the suburban reps complaining would have been to say, "Hey we know that all this money is going towards roads, here, we will put more than 10% towards transit" ya know, as a put your money where your mouth is. It pains me when I hear people like Jim Brainard pining for rapid transit to Carmel and in the same breath, committing $37 million to reconstruct 96th & Keystone without a firm financial source confirmed. They will FIND the money for the roundabout which would be nice. But how about tihs, leave the intersection the way that it is, and put that $37 million towards their share of rapid transit to the job centers on US31. People have voted with their feet to use cars to move up & down Keystone Ave and while it would cause an uproar to say they were going to spend the money on a train or bus system instead of relieving one of the worst bottlenecks in the region, it would be the right thing to do from a transportation equallity standpoint. The Hamilton County leader say they want transit, but really arent letting up on road widening, expansion, sprawl, greenfield development like they could be.

It's like Indiana, Illinois and Wisconsin competing for jobs, but on a regional (city) basis.

It's the schools. The rich in Marion County can send their kids to the 16k-a-year-schools. The rest of us didn't have that option and headed out. If you have kids you know what I mean - you give them every chance you can. Solve the school problem and you solve the out-migration problem. Unfortunately, looking at the past 40+ years of trying, it isn't simple.

You're absolutely right, but most people aren't aware that tuition rates for Indy's Catholic schools work on a sliding rule.. if your income is low, they will educate your child for cheap or free. 12 years of Catholic education right here buddy, and my family was pretty close to the poverty line growing up. I've always been surprised that more people don't take advantage of that.. The Indy area Catholic schools are excellent and usually only 50% of the students and faculty are actually Catholic..

It's the schools. The rich in Marion County can send their kids to the 16k-a-year-schools. The rest of us didn't have that option and headed out. If you have kids you know what I mean - you give them every chance you can. Solve the school problem and you solve the out-migration problem. Unfortunately, looking at the past 40+ years of trying, it isn't simple.

It's the schools. The rich in Marion County can send their kids to the 16k-a-year-schools. The rest of us didn't have that option and headed out. If you have kids you know what I mean - you give them every chance you can. Solve the school problem and you solve the out-migration problem. Unfortunately, looking at the past 40+ years of trying, it isn't simple.
With the opening this school year of the Center for Inquiry III at 19th and Park, every near north residential neighborhood up through Meridian-Kessler is now covered by one of the three Center for Inquiry schools. The first two are excellent and there's no reason to think the third won't be the same. They're all IPS and all free. Anybody with young children wishing to live in an urban neighborhood no longer has the excuse of blaming the poor quality if mainline IPS schools.

With the opening this school year of the Center for Inquiry III at 19th and Park, every near north residential neighborhood up through Meridian-Kessler is now covered by one of the three Center for Inquiry schools. The first two are excellent and there's no reason to think the third won't be the same. They're all IPS and all free. Anybody with young children wishing to live in an urban neighborhood no longer has the excuse of blaming the poor quality if mainline IPS schools.

As a non-rich parent of one kid who did 12 years of Catholic schools, and a second who did 13 years of IPS magnets, I've been saying for years that there are plenty of good schools inside 465. (My kids are in their early-mid 20s.) No one has mentioned the excellent charters yet.

It's just not automatic. You can't look at it the same way as you'd look at donut-county districts (buying in a development where you like overall std test scores and elementary or middle-school boundaries). You have to know your kid's strengths and skills and interests, and research choices, and find the right match.

I'm just getting tired of the school debate...been arguing for Indy and "inside 465" for a generation now. Glad corrND and others can pick up the torch.

I attended a conference recently where a presented provided some interesting information about real estate and preferences. More so than in recent decades, people are looking for proximity to work and a liveable neighborhood over schools and home size. This is exciting news for land use purposes and it is burried in years of over supply in the suburban housing market.

I am not saying roads can't exist for transit to work. I am saying that our almost exclusive policy of funding auto based roadways will produce a bad environment for mass transit. With the tax payer subsidizing road construction, we are paying for people to drive as easy as ever while telling them we need their money for transit to relieve congestion which is relatively minor and fill in a bunch of environmental and community feel goods (I am being a bit sarcastic, but that is the view). If we spend over $3 B to construct a highway through southern Indiana, that is $3 B going to a project to add to SOV traffic and will never be returned for a smarter design, plus we will be stuck with the additional upkeep costs. Locally, Billions are going into 465 and even efforts to redo what has been done recently to "add capacity" as incorrect as that is. This is billions not going to mass transit and an arguement against the need for transit. Why would a resident vote to be taxed additionally for a NE train when they can drive on the hidden cost tax payer funded driveway, and I tend to agree. I don't want to pay more taxes either, but I'd like my share now to go towards smarter improvements. I hate the "We will take the tax and tell you what is best" method.....especially when driven by dinasaur practices and strong lobbyists. We can't provide adequate service for a comprehensive mass transportation system and fund sprawl tactics like road expansion and utility extensions.......won't work.

Really? I don't see it as either/or. The cities with good transit still sprawl, still expand road capacity as they grow outward.

I'm most familiar with Philadelphia, having gone to HS in what was then the far suburbs and to college in the city (where I lived carless 4 years). Both the city and burbs have received big road and big transit investments over the past 35 years. Urbanists can love the city and first-ring burbs, and suburbanites can do their thing too.

Where I get off the bus is prescription: everyone ought to do what I think is right instead of making their own choices and tradeoffs. I'm way more focused on how to make suburban residents and developers pay more of the costs they currently externalize onto the city so that decisions are made on a "real-cost" basis.

As a non-rich parent of one kid who did 12 years of Catholic schools, and a second who did 13 years of IPS magnets, I've been saying for years that there are plenty of good schools inside 465. (My kids are in their early-mid 20s.) No one has mentioned the excellent charters yet.

It's just not automatic. You can't look at it the same way as you'd look at donut-county districts (buying in a development where you like overall std test scores and elementary or middle-school boundaries). You have to know your kid's strengths and skills and interests, and research choices, and find the right match.

I'm just getting tired of the school debate...been arguing for Indy and "inside 465" for a generation now. Glad corrND and others can pick up the torch.

My oldest is going to be in kindergarten next year. We probably will send him to the Catholic school a couple of blocks from our house, but we are pretty pleased with the options we have. We have neighbors who are very happy with the downtown CFI, and the Irvington Community charters as well. Anyone who doesn't think there are good options in the inner city simply isn't paying attention. And obviously there are good things going on in the townships, too, so the idea that fleeing Marion County is a necessity just doesn't ring true to me.

Arenn's 11-point sniper attack, disheartening as it may be, is almost uniformly salient. While I might have qualms with parts of some of the observations--the considerably greater size of Ohio counties is a huge influence on outmigration patterns that weakens any comparison--all of them have viable fundamentals.

To me, the problems happening in Indianapolis are virtually never unique--most of them are issues all cities are confronting. But the jurisdictional boundaries affect a single county far more than they do in other metro areas. Most US cities are finding that the housing stock built in the 15 years after WWII--the Levittowns and their equivalents--are seriously slumping in market demand. The difference is that while most large Midwestern metros, the housing stock from the 40s and 50s falls at least 75% outside the primary city limits and probably 25% outside the primary county limits. In Indy metro, this housing stock is primarily in Indianapolis limits--a few exceptions in Beech Grove and Speedway, but that's it--and overwhelmingly in Marion County. Not one of the collar counties was emergent as a bedroom community way back then, and so none of them have a lot of housing stock from this time period. Carmel didn't really enter the radar until the 1960s at the earliest.

Thus, it's more about territoriality and urban decay. Jurisdictional boundaries put some cities at greater disadvantage than others, and I'm not sure where Indy/Marion County fits in terms of ranking, but it does seem to have some entrenched disadvantages. Marion County houses the revitalizing inner city neighborhoods (which, IMO, Arenn and many others underplay in Indy for what they're worth) but also all the stagnant, creaky, worn-out subdivisions of the 40s and 50s. At this point I see little that can be done to offset the decline of those neighborhoods. But can the revitalizing ones compensate for them? If Marion County implodes, it will be the townships that shoulder the burden, at least until (worst case scenario) the city is so far declined that it starts hurting the metro--namely the suburbs. If metro Indy truly were Hudnut's "suburb of nothing", it probably wouldn't be long before the suburbs plunged as well. While Zionsville and Carmel might be heavily safeguarded against such a decline because of their almost uniform affluence, the same couldn't be said about the others. All of them--Brownsburg, Greenwood, Plainfield, Avon, even Fishers--may very well suffer the same problems in 20-30 years when their lower-middle income housing stock falls out of favor.

Arenn's point #2 still hits home considerably. The townships house much of the 1940s and 1950s stock which was still stable if not outright desirable as recently as 25 years ago. Now it's not. And the township schools are overwhelmingly absorbing this low demand. I wrote about this a few years ago in a 3-part series on my blog, which, in my humble opinion, still stands as one of my stronger arguments. Public school districts are just little demographic containers--how good they are has far less to do with the per pupil funding and teacher quality or condition of the facilities, and much more about the students themselves. Not rocket science, of course, but a problem far easier to diagnose than to treat.

In order to avoid these posts from getting too long, I reiterate my thesis from this blog post (found here (http://dirtamericana.blogspot.com/2009/12/invisible-fences-for-humans-part-iii.html) along with my concomitant recommendations):

Despite a non-exclusionary structure that resembles a public good, school districts are first and foremost commodities of variable quality which forces them to compete for patronage. When highly marketable, school districts endow land within their invisible boundaries with greater value. Therefore, both municipal governments and electorates themselves have commodified schools so intractably that it has become their ambition to refine the district continuously, ideally so that it attracts the demographic base that will allow it to perform at a high standard as efficiently as possible.

With the opening this school year of the Center for Inquiry III at 19th and Park, every near north residential neighborhood up through Meridian-Kessler is now covered by one of the three Center for Inquiry schools. The first two are excellent and there's no reason to think the third won't be the same. They're all IPS and all free. Anybody with young children wishing to live in an urban neighborhood no longer has the excuse of blaming the poor quality if mainline IPS schools.

Looking at the data (http://www.doe.in.gov/assessment/2011/docs/school_level/public_schools_over_90.xls)

There are 2 Marion County Elem. Schools above 90% (one IPS). There are 18 in Hamilton County and 7 in the remaining donut counties. And that's just at the elem. level.

I don't doubt that there are options, most specifically at the elem. level. But for those that can afford it, the safest, easiest, and most reliable way to guarantee that a child has access to a quality education is clearly to move to Hamilton County. I wish to live back in Meridian Kessler and maybe I will again at some point. I just can't afford to pay private school tuition or gamble with my kids' education.

Lament it as much as you want, but IMHO education is the singular greatest reason for out-migration for Marion County.

Looking at the data (http://www.doe.in.gov/assessment/2011/docs/school_level/public_schools_over_90.xls)

There are 2 Marion County Elem. Schools above 90% (one IPS). There are 18 in Hamilton County and 7 in the remaining donut counties. And that's just at the elem. level.

I don't doubt that there are options, most specifically at the elem. level. But for those that can afford it, the safest, easiest, and most reliable way to guarantee that a child has access to a quality education is clearly to move to Hamilton County. I wish to live back in Meridian Kessler and maybe I will again at some point. I just can't afford to pay private school tuition or gamble with my kids' education.

Lament it as much as you want, but IMHO education is the singular greatest reason for out-migration for Marion County.

Good kids with parents who care get good educations inside 465. It's not a gamble, it's a fact. At the end of the day, other kids' test scores don't matter...what matters is YOUR kids' test scores and achieving their potential.

Really? I don't see it as either/or. The cities with good transit still sprawl, still expand road capacity as they grow outward.

I'm most familiar with Philadelphia, having gone to HS in what was then the far suburbs and to college in the city (where I lived carless 4 years). Both the city and burbs have received big road and big transit investments over the past 35 years. Urbanists can love the city and first-ring burbs, and suburbanites can do their thing too.

Where I get off the bus is prescription: everyone ought to do what I think is right instead of making their own choices and tradeoffs. I'm way more focused on how to make suburban residents and developers pay more of the costs they currently externalize onto the city so that decisions are made on a "real-cost" basis.

That is what I am saying. I don't think we need to force people to live a certain way, but We certainly don't need to pay for their choice especially when it negatively impacts the community. Many of the suburbs around the city couldn't come close to paying for their roads based on population, so they are receiver cities of funding while larger cities like Indy are donor cities. I am actually paying to make it easier for people to live further away from work so they can complain about traffic and I can pay for the next round of road expansion. Meanwhile, Indy wants to try and provide a comprehensive look at transportation and we are slaughtered by suburban communities because they don't want to fund anything that they don't see a direct benefit from.

There are some great pictures from The Chase Tower in the latest installment of the recreational trespassing blog:

http://www.nopromiseofsafety.com/?p=1714

Good kids with parents who care get good educations inside 465. It's not a gamble, it's a fact. At the end of the day, other kids' test scores don't matter...what matters is YOUR kids' test scores and achieving their potential.


^^ Truth. I went to North View Middle School and BRHS. Both could be a little rough, but if you wanted to learn they were great. I felt just as prepared for IU as anyone and I earned grades that prove it. All of the post graduate schools I applied to asked for the name of my high school, but they really only cared about my undergrad GPA and my admissions test scores.

Education starts with parents teaching their children how to be curious and figure things out. Without that your kid will be fighting an uphill battle nomatter what school they go to. Teachers educate children on basic proficiency, so most schools are comparable. Parents have to teach their children how to excel in life. You can't outsource that. A lot of parents don't get it so they move up north.

What ever happened to the rugged American individualist ideal? We used to teach that to our kids. Why are we all sheep now?

Marion County's problems in a nutshell: worse public services, older building stock, legacy costs, much higher crime, far worse schools => all with a higher tax rate than Hamilton County or other options. It's a no brainer for most people. When leadership shows nearly complete indifference to this, it isn't hard to conclude that Indy is heading for a bad patch.

It's a no brainier for most people because they have no brains. I would rather take te good with the bad than live a hermetically sealed life.

Looking at the data (http://www.doe.in.gov/assessment/2011/docs/school_level/public_schools_over_90.xls)

There are 2 Marion County Elem. Schools above 90% (one IPS). There are 18 in Hamilton County and 7 in the remaining donut counties. And that's just at the elem. level.

I don't doubt that there are options, most specifically at the elem. level. But for those that can afford it, the safest, easiest, and most reliable way to guarantee that a child has access to a quality education is clearly to move to Hamilton County. I wish to live back in Meridian Kessler and maybe I will again at some point. I just can't afford to pay private school tuition or gamble with my kids' education.

Lament it as much as you want, but IMHO education is the singular greatest reason for out-migration for Marion County.

This is wrongheaded and destructive thinking. CDC has it right. Judging a school by its average test scores is lazy and doesn't tell anything close to the entire story. As American Dirt notes, schools, at least as measured by their test scores, are largely a product of their demographics. I've had this discussion with a friend who attended Lawrence North in the late 80s/early 90s. At the time, LN was near the top of the heap, but as it has become more of a mixed income area, it has fallen back to the pack. As I asked him, do you think the teachers who were there in your day and still are there have gotten dumber? What a coincidence that schools "fail" in concentric circles.

I have a co-worker who has had two daughters attend Warren Central. Most in Hamilton County would get the vapors at the very idea, but you know what? WC, like most of its other township counterparts, has strong AP offerings, good fine arts and extracurriculars, and so on. Unfortunately, however, it becomes a vicious cycle. People with higher income and education levels move to the outer burbs, which depresses test scores, which upsets the next level of higher income/education levels, which leads them to move out, and so on. 20 years ago, Westfield was a podunk farm school. Now, it's a suburban school with SAT scores slightly higher than those at North Central. Is anyone going to argue that a high achieving student will have better opportunities at Westfield than at North Central? And if you won't accept the numbers as to North Central, then why accept them as to schools without the longstanding reputation?

And by the way, assuming that your kids will have a good experience in a suburban school is no better than assuming that your kids will have a bad experience in an urban school. You don't think kids have bad experiences at Carmel and HSE and Fishers, or get lost in the shuffle? How sad and naive to think that.

You have it dead wrong, or at least half wrong. Out-migration is both a cause and effect of declining test scores. And with all due respect to ARenn, I'm not sure what a visionary mayor or CCC could do about this. Marion County's problems are to a large degree fed by unfettered land use in suburban counties, the perverse incentives to flee legacy costs, and the predominant yet fallacious attitudes such as those in the post to which I am replying.

As for the overall health of Marion County, I don't foresee a total collapse. Like Moochie, I do think that energy costs are going to be a bigger factor going forward, and despite my lament about attitudes, I do think they are changing, slowly. Unigov has its ups and downs. Obviously, one of the downsides, as Aaron and others note, is that the city is now stuck with inner ring suburban areas that have urban problems but not urban form or character. On the other hand, Unigov was a net positive because it bought Indy a generation, and did so at the time that probably was the worst for cities. I don't foresee a Detroit-style implosion. And, as ARenn has noted over the years, even cities that are considered successes, such as Chicago, can often be a tale of two cities. I think parts of Indy will struggle, and pockets, particularly in the central core and in well-established suburban areas, will continue to be good places to live. Finally, I do agree that intracity transit is a huge piece of the puzzle, and I'm glad to hear Ballard talking about it. Hell, if he had said that before the election I might have voted for him.

When it comes to schools and suburbanization, we have to deal with reality as it is, not as we would wish to be. Berating people who choose the suburban option doesn't solve anything. My experience in Chicago suggests in any case that you're reversing cause and effect: families aren't attracted back to the city because the schools improved, but schools improve because families come back to the city. That's not to say that we shouldn't have a full court press on school improvement, but I think we can overcome the problem of recruitment without it.

JohnM, obviously there are many problems that are difficult to solve, like schools. But there are many things, little things perhaps but things nevertheless, that require sometimes nothing but a willingness to pick up the phone. A couple examples:

1. That abandoned sign for the temporary library at the old city hall building. It was a complete eyesore and a code violation to boot. I brought this up to multiple direct reports of Ballard multiple times and nobody removed it. Not until I posted a blog item on it and send a chorus of complaints their way did it get removed. Locals don't notice or care to deal with blatant and easily addressable eyesores only a couple blocks from city hall.

2. I similarly brought up the crumbling, ghetto big green signs at Keystone and 86th. I haven't been there in a while, so I'll go out on a limb and say this, but I expect they are still there. Keep in mind, most of Carmel just one mile north is pristine.

3. DPW to this day continues to engineer roads that do not even match suburban standards for what is being built in the collar counties Indianapolis today. No one seems concerned about this. Nor have they figured out how to design a decent urban street. That's why the water company money that goes to streets is going to mostly end up pissed away. In some cases (eg., West 38th) it is arguable that elements of the project are worse than what they are replacing. I see nothing to suggest that anything is changing here, except implementing bike lanes that as I noted are obsolete designs.

4. INDOT pulled hundreds of millions in Major Moves funding from the I-69 northeast corridor upgrade. I blogged about this, sent info on it to the mayor's office and others, but as near as I can tell, almost nobody even knows they got fleeced, much less cares. (I finally found one person who was willing to follow up on it). If you are willing to let the state yank that kind of money without a peep or even stirring in your slumber, that's stunning. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in other cities.

Again, you can bring clear, easy to action points to the attention of people who can address them, and they just don't care. They either don't get it, or if they do, they just don't care. When your own civic leaders take so little pride and have so little passion for their own city, something is very, very wrong. When it take a full court press to get the city to remove an eyesore sign two blocks from city hall, don't expect that any of the actual real, hard problems are going to get addressed anytime soon.

When it comes to schools and suburbanization, we have to deal with reality as it is, not as we would wish to be. Berating people who choose the suburban option doesn't solve anything. My experience in Chicago suggests in any case that you're reversing cause and effect: families aren't attracted back to the city because the schools improved, but schools improve because families come back to the city. That's not to say that we shouldn't have a full court press on school improvement, but I think we can overcome the problem of recruitment without it.

Yes, of course we have to deal with reality as it is. One aspect of that reality is simplistic and/or fallacious thinking about what constitutes a "good school." Pushing back against those ideas won't solve anything on its own, but that doesn't make it pointless. As for school improvement, I think can be a virtuous cycle in the same way that school "decline" is a vicious cycle: early adopters push move back to the city and push for school improvement, and the improved schools attract those who wouldn't have moved back otherwise. The point is, things like that are happening in Indy, within the IPS magnets and some of the charters. Getting the word out about that is important, and part of it is about educating people who think they should call Child Protective Services when they find out that as family of means is sending its children to an IPS school.

With tons of respect for your work, Aaron, sometimes I think you spend too much time around urbanists for your own good. You do some important work with your contrarianish pushback about urbanists' faulty assumptions, but someone needs to push the other direction, too. I'm going to continue to push back against the comfortable assumptions of suburbanites one conversation at a time.

John, when you describe judging schools by test scores as "lazy" it comes across to me like you are criticizing the people who moved to the suburbs, not the ideas around schools. That's what I react to.

I also don't think Indy will turn into Detroit or Cleveland. But it could easily become a Cincinnati, St. Louis, or Milwaukee. That is, a very sick core with perhaps some glittering and wonderful things in the downtown, leading to overall very anemic regional growth and malaise. I don't for a minute believe that the impressive suburban growth and regional statistics will maintain themselves if the city flames out.

JohnM, obviously there are many problems that are difficult to solve, like schools. But there are many things, little things perhaps but things nevertheless, that require sometimes nothing but a willingness to pick up the phone. A couple examples:

1. That abandoned sign for the temporary library at the old city hall building. It was a complete eyesore and a code violation to boot. I brought this up to multiple direct reports of Ballard multiple times and nobody removed it. Not until I posted a blog item on it and send a chorus of complaints their way did it get removed. Locals don't notice or care to deal with blatant and easily addressable eyesores only a couple blocks from city hall.

2. I similarly brought up the crumbling, ghetto big green signs at Keystone and 86th. I haven't been there in a while, so I'll go out on a limb and say this, but I expect they are still there. Keep in mind, most of Carmel just one mile north is pristine.

3. DPW to this day continues to engineer roads that do not even match suburban standards for what is being built in the collar counties Indianapolis today. No one seems concerned about this. Nor have they figured out how to design a decent urban street. That's why the water company money that goes to streets is going to mostly end up pissed away. In some cases (eg., West 38th) it is arguable that elements of the project are worse than what they are replacing. I see nothing to suggest that anything is changing here, except implementing bike lanes that as I noted are obsolete designs.

4. INDOT pulled hundreds of millions in Major Moves funding from the I-69 northeast corridor upgrade. I blogged about this, sent info on it to the mayor's office and others, but as near as I can tell, almost nobody even knows they got fleeced, much less cares. (I finally found one person who was willing to follow up on it). If you are willing to let the state yank that kind of money without a peep or even stirring in your slumber, that's stunning. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in other cities.

Again, you can bring clear, easy to action points to the attention of people who can address them, and they just don't care. They either don't get it, or if they do, they just don't care. When your own civic leaders take so little pride and have so little passion for their own city, something is very, very wrong. When it take a full court press to get the city to remove an eyesore sign two blocks from city hall, don't expect that any of the actual real, hard problems are going to get addressed anytime soon.

The sign at 86th & Keystone is still there or was at least a couple weeks ago.

I for one, dont really mind the money getting pulled for I-69 on the NE side but thats only for the same reasons I stated about 96th & Keystone. People live & work out that way, let them suffer the consequences. The loss of funding is of course a big deal.

There is only so much that citizens can do. Some of us try hard, but some of us simply dont have more time to put into community enrichment.

When it comes to schools and suburbanization, we have to deal with reality as it is, not as we would wish to be. Berating people who choose the suburban option doesn't solve anything. My experience in Chicago suggests in any case that you're reversing cause and effect: families aren't attracted back to the city because the schools improved, but schools improve because families come back to the city. That's not to say that we shouldn't have a full court press on school improvement, but I think we can overcome the problem of recruitment without it.

Berating the majority is all-too-popular here. And I find that unfortunate.

It is a fact that you can get a good education in practically any school system. It's also a fact that if 94% of students at your kid's school are passing the istep, there is a real good chance your kid's one of them.

I'm not sad or naive in my thinking that my kids will have a good experience. Odd's are that they will. Let me know when you see the influx of students into Tech looking for that good experience.

Except in rare circumstances, you'll never get back people who left. The key is keeping them from leaving in the first place. It starts with good schools - not opportunities.

There are some great pictures from The Chase Tower in the latest installment of the recreational trespassing blog:
I am glad that this criminal is leaving Indianapolis. Scary man who gets others to risk their lives breaking into buildings, leaving damage in their wake.

^^ I'm not. While he might be committing a crime, he isn't robbing people or selling drugs. He has pride for his city and that goes a long way in my book. His pictures and stories about his adventures in Indianapolis are fun to read and make me feel like we actually have a young adventurous population. While he might be taking stupid risks for nothin important he isn't dangerous. Anyone willing to follow him is fully aware of the risks. You can't bubble wrap the world.

Berating the majority is all-too-popular here. And I find that unfortunate.

It is a fact that you can get a good education in practically any school system. It's also a fact that if 94% of students at your kid's school are passing the istep, there is a real good chance your kid's one of them.

I'm not sad or naive in my thinking that my kids will have a good experience. Odd's are that they will. Let me know when you see the influx of students into Tech looking for that good experience.

Except in rare circumstances, you'll never get back people who left. The key is keeping them from leaving in the first place. It starts with good schools - not opportunities.

My wife and I both have advanced degrees, and our kids are well-nourished and cared for in a non-abusive, healthy environment. If my kids are having trouble passing ISTEP, it almost certainly would have something to do with factors other than the school corporation. It's odd to use ISTEP, a minimum competence exam, as somehow reflecting on whether a school is maximizing its potential.

Tech is a strawman. Herron, Irvington Prep, any number of other charters are emerging and improving.

Looking at the data (http://www.doe.in.gov/assessment/2011/docs/school_level/public_schools_over_90.xls)

There are 2 Marion County Elem. Schools above 90% (one IPS). There are 18 in Hamilton County and 7 in the remaining donut counties. And that's just at the elem. level.

I don't doubt that there are options, most specifically at the elem. level. But for those that can afford it, the safest, easiest, and most reliable way to guarantee that a child has access to a quality education is clearly to move to Hamilton County. I wish to live back in Meridian Kessler and maybe I will again at some point. I just can't afford to pay private school tuition or gamble with my kids' education.

Lament it as much as you want, but IMHO education is the singular greatest reason for out-migration for Marion County.
Even if we accept overall school ISTEP scores as an important indicator for individual student achievement -- and others have already done a good job refuting that -- CFI schools do extremely well on ISTEP anyway. In 2010 at CFI I, 8th graders passed 93% on math and 93% on ELA. At CFI II, it's a hair lower at 92% for math and 85% for ELA. Are you really telling me that there's any difference in education by sending your kid to a Hamilton County school than one of the CFI schools?

I say again: if you want to live in an urban neighborhood in Indianapolis, school quality is absolutely NOT a reason to reject the option.

Even if we accept overall school ISTEP scores as an important indicator for individual student achievement -- and others have already done a good job refuting that -- CFI schools do extremely well on ISTEP anyway. In 2010 at CFI I, 8th graders passed 93% on math and 93% on ELA. At CFI II, it's a hair lower at 92% for math and 85% for ELA. Are you really telling me that there's any difference in education by sending your kid to a Hamilton County school than one of the CFI schools?

I say again: if you want to live in an urban neighborhood in Indianapolis, school quality is absolutely NOT a reason to reject the option.

This is reflective of an opportunity - frankly, one which certainly isn't guaranteed as I believe the CFI schools operate under a lottery. What this isn't reflective of is a system that encourages young families to stay or locate to an urban neighborhood - though I'd hardly argue MK is urban. Then there are the MS/HS options...

As for ISTEP scores, it hasn't been refuted that they are not an important indicator for individual achievement within a system. What more measurable metric exists for a school than the percentage of students showing basic competence? Graduation rates?

My point never was that you couldn't get a quality education in an urban neighborhood. My point was that you need to fix the school SYSTEMS if you want to fix out-migration. 2 elem. schools in Marion County over 90% ISTEP. 18 north of 96th. Get those in balance and you'll see more in-migrators move to Marion County and less Marion County out-migrators to the burbs.

10. An almost exclusively top-down culture focused on "next big thing" type projects for redevelopment. Not ever problem is amenable to this approach, which I'll be the first to say in a strength in the right context like building an events business. That's why we end up with things like Fall Creek Place, which everybody thinks is a home run but which actually is a big part of the problem (ultra-low density literally like a small town in Indiana, poor design, and no ability to support any type of neighborhood infrastructure). It seems likely that FCP is going to end up being the model for redevelopment going forward, however.
You were bound to get a response on this point from me, as I've recently moved into FCP. I have two specific responses:

1. FCP is flawed in layout but I don't think that the predominance of single-family homes is the issue. Clearly you're being a bit hyperbolic calling FCP "ultra low density." It's laid out in pretty standard fashion for an urban neighborhood this far from the central core of a city the size of Indy. My main issue is that they did not plan adequately for commercial retail space and higher density residential apartments/condos on 22nd. This should have been viewed as the primary gathering corridor for FCP and HMP. The entire road would be 3-4 stories tall with SMALL shop spaces, and tapering quickly to the north with row/town houses and then the single family homes as we see there now. (Row houses exist in the neighborhood but are randomly placed at nodes.) The same could have happened again at 25th with lower height.

Instead, we got no foresight and single family homes built right up to 22nd. I don't even see why a home built parallel to a moderately-trafficked road like 22nd is even desirable to anyone.

2. My other point is that there's evidence already that FCP is not the model for other areas. The 10th St area is being reborn with retail/community/residential spaces on 10th (of roughly the type I'd like to have seen on 22nd) and home rehab behind. The 22nd/monon area is being rebuilt with a plethora of large multifamily projects in addition to the on-going Martindale on the Monon home building project. The National apartments are already in and 3 more apartment projects are currently working through MDC approvals.

This is reflective of an opportunity - frankly, one which certainly isn't guaranteed as I believe the CFI schools operate under a lottery. What this isn't reflective of is a system that encourages young families to stay or locate to an urban neighborhood - though I'd hardly argue MK is urban. Then there are the MS/HS options...

As for ISTEP scores, it hasn't been refuted that they are not an important indicator for individual achievement within a system. What more measurable metric exists for a school than the percentage of students showing basic competence? Graduation rates?

My point never was that you couldn't get a quality education in an urban neighborhood. My point was that you need to fix the school SYSTEMS if you want to fix out-migration. 2 elem. schools in Marion County over 90% ISTEP. 18 north of 96th. Get those in balance and you'll see more in-migrators move to Marion County and less Marion County out-migrators to the burbs.

What is encouraging about IPS and Indy schools in general is that they are finally starting to leverage the city. My oldest currently attends the preschool at the Children's Museum, which is in its second year of existence. I cannot imagine a preschool with better resources at its disposal. Similarly, schools forming partnerships with institutions like Butler and groups like KIB can give students access to a great range of resources not typically available in a school - public, private, city, suburban or rural.
When it comes to raising our children, my wife and I try to treat the city as a living laboratory and take advantage of what it has to offer. While we don't offer large backyards, quiet streets and other amenities you will find in the suburbs, we instead provide impromptu trips to the zoo, the gay pride parade and bike rides for frozen yogurt on Mass Ave.
Instead of endlessly looking for apples to apples comparisons with neighboring districts and environs, parents and schools need to do their best to squeeze every bit of advantage out of whatever is immediately at hand.

As for ISTEP scores, it hasn't been refuted that they are not an important indicator for individual achievement within a system. What more measurable metric exists for a school than the percentage of students showing basic competence? Graduation rates?

These reflect only the general population as American Dirt pointed out. Not your kid's chances, or odds, or teacher competence. My niece graduated from LN some years back; the same teachers are there, and they still have all those AP classes. Is it a worse school because the test scores have declined? I think my niece would today get the same good education and probably still be admitted to Notre Dame.

I'd guess that Tech's Math-Science magnet sends a higher proportion of its students to Purdue than any other school in Central Indiana. The year my son graduated, I think 23 of ~60 graduating seniors went to Purdue on scholarships. (Sorry John.) One who didn't went to Wabash with a full ride. Yes, it's a small program. Elite, even: the physics/calculus teacher has an earned PhD.

There is nothing wrong with IPS that 5,000 kids with good parents can't fix. Including average test scores.

Berating the majority is all-too-popular here. And I find that unfortunate.

In the context of this argument, implying that those who stay inside 465 are sketchy parents who don't have their kids' best interests at heart is pretty unfortunate too.

10. An almost exclusively top-down culture focused on "next big thing" type projects for redevelopment. Not ever problem is amenable to this approach, which I'll be the first to say in a strength in the right context like building an events business. That's why we end up with things like Fall Creek Place, which everybody thinks is a home run but which actually is a big part of the problem (ultra-low density literally like a small town in Indiana, poor design, and no ability to support any type of neighborhood infrastructure). It seems likely that FCP is going to end up being the model for redevelopment going forward, however.

I did a really rough measure and worked from memory. FCP itself (also including the older Fall Creek Proper) is close to 500 housing units in an area about 0.35x0.85mi., or about 0.3 square miles. Since the population skews younger and married, let's assume a household size of 2.3 (that's one kid for every 3.33 housing units, which might be low). So 1150 people/0.3 sq.mi. = 3833 people per square mile. I don't think the unit count includes some pre-existing and new multi-family (like the "big green barn" condos east of Wendy's) dotted through the area. YMMV, probably higher.

Probably at least double the density of your average half-acre suburban square mile. Hardly "ultra low" density. Probably not a bad model for a midtown district.

I agree with CorrND: more deliberate facings of townhomes on 22nd, 25th, and maybe Central or College would have been good.

I disagree on commercial: there's plenty of space, and the "Goose" node was never intended to be full-on corner retail...it was designed as "live work" for home-based professionals.

The City should have taken the old Preston-Safeway vicinity (both sides of Central south of 22nd) and remade that as an urban hide-the-parking-in-back shopping node. Maybe also should have integrated the 2300-2400 blocks of Meridian as a "village" node that also grabs some commuter traffic.

How great would it be to have Goose at 24th or 25th & Meridian? :)

^^ I'm not. While he might be committing a crime, he isn't robbing people or selling drugs. He has pride for his city and that goes a long way in my book. His pictures and stories about his adventures in Indianapolis are fun to read and make me feel like we actually have a young adventurous population. While he might be taking stupid risks for nothin important he isn't dangerous. Anyone willing to follow him is fully aware of the risks. You can't bubble wrap the world.
From reading his web page for some years, I believe he breaks locks and doors, sometimes, to enter buildings or parts of buildings.
People gainning access to the roofs of buildings in which I have an interest have stolen flags (repeatedly), broken glass and painted graffiti. If they fell off the roofs or fire escapes, lawsuits against the buildings might happen.
You should write this guy -- his name is known as he was, I believe, the guy that got in trouble in South or North Carolina for assembling some orange highway barrels into a monster -- and invite him to break into your house and fool around in the attic and on the roof; he also likes basements.
Also, credit-worthy tenants interested in security for their leased premises don't like trespassers moving on the roofs, fire escapes, stairways and lobbies and even through the leased space.

One more:

Jack in the Box variance petition to allow a drive-through just south of 16th and Meridian was denied by the BZA this afternoon.

One more:

Jack in the Box variance petition to allow a drive-through just south of 16th and Meridian was denied by the BZA this afternoon.

SWEET.

From reading his web page for some years, I believe he breaks locks and doors, sometimes, to enter buildings or parts of buildings.
People gainning access to the roofs of buildings in which I have an interest have stolen flags (repeatedly), broken glass and painted graffiti. If they fell off the roofs or fire escapes, lawsuits against the buildings might happen.
You should write this guy -- his name is known as he was, I believe, the guy that got in trouble in South or North Carolina for assembling some orange highway barrels into a monster -- and invite him to break into your house and fool around in the attic and on the roof; he also likes basements.
Also, credit-worthy tenants interested in security for their leased premises don't like trespassers moving on the roofs, fire escapes, stairways and lobbies and even through the leased space.

As far as I can tell your entire argument is hearsay. Damaging and stealing property is definitely wrong, but as far as anyone can tell there is no evidence that he has done any of that. It takes all of an hour with youtube and a pad lock to figure out how to pick one. I am not advocating that anyone should do what he does and trespass, just that it isn't a big deal. He is just some kid getting into mischief. Your drunk driving neighbor/relative/friend/colleague is a much bigger criminal threat to our community.

BTW I have an interest in a few buildings with graffiti on them... welcome to the city. Most of it is just urban art, and most writers are at least courteous about where and what they paint on. Get worried when it's gang related. In Indianapolis, if it looks like it took more than 30 seconds to paint it is not gang related.

Indystar.com: Republicans Push New Smoking Ban (http://www.indystar.com/article/20111115/NEWS05/111150392/Council-Republicans-plan-new-push-smoking-ban?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com)

Sweet! Hopefully this will finally happen!

I did a really rough measure and worked from memory. FCP itself (also including the older Fall Creek Proper) is close to 500 housing units in an area about 0.35x0.85mi., or about 0.3 square miles. Since the population skews younger and married, let's assume a household size of 2.3 (that's one kid for every 3.33 housing units, which might be low). So 1150 people/0.3 sq.mi. = 3833 people per square mile. I don't think the unit count includes some pre-existing and new multi-family (like the "big green barn" condos east of Wendy's) dotted through the area. YMMV, probably higher.

Probably at least double the density of your average half-acre suburban square mile. Hardly "ultra low" density. Probably not a bad model for a midtown district.

I agree with CorrND: more deliberate facings of townhomes on 22nd, 25th, and maybe Central or College would have been good.

I disagree on commercial: there's plenty of space, and the "Goose" node was never intended to be full-on corner retail...it was designed as "live work" for home-based professionals.

The City should have taken the old Preston-Safeway vicinity (both sides of Central south of 22nd) and remade that as an urban hide-the-parking-in-back shopping node. Maybe also should have integrated the 2300-2400 blocks of Meridian as a "village" node that also grabs some commuter traffic.

How great would it be to have Goose at 24th or 25th & Meridian? :)
I'm not sure I agree that there's plenty of commercial space in FCP. If you look at spaces within the neighborhood itself, there's hardly anything available. As far as I'm aware, the only currently vacant space is at the Lincoln Park Shops warehouse reuse (25th/Central) where one of the three spaces is still available. The other two are filled with uses so popular that the parking lot is often completely full (which itself might be an issue for leasing the 3rd space!). Outside that, every space in Douglas Point Lofts is occupied (the Goose corner), all the Axia spaces on 22nd are used, and there are other legacy spots in use on 22nd.

If you look beyond the borders of FCP -- spaces on Meridian and the shopping center you mention at 22nd/Central -- I'm guessing the rent gets so exorbitant or the space so large that small/startup tenants have no chance. I think 22nd could have been developed with several small retail spaces that would have had an excellent chance of being snatched up by entrepreneurs and supported by the neighborhood. Today that sort of project has no chance of being financed.

A glimmer of hope: as you know, Axia has been doing some work on a building at 22nd/Talbott that will (if they get around to finishing it) provide some of the kinds of space I think would work. Hopefully they're able to complete the Talbott Commons project that they proposed for that intersection a couple years ago, which would add some more small spaces.

In the context of this argument, implying that those who stay inside 465 are sketchy parents who don't have their kids' best interests at heart is pretty unfortunate too.

Let me know where I did that. I certainly didn't intend to. Kids can learn anywhere.

I just can't afford to pay private school tuition or gamble with my kids' education.

And so those parents who don't move to the burbs are gambling...is the implication.

And so those parents who don't move to the burbs are gambling...is the implication.

We lived outside the 1 mile from 84 when it was converted to a magnet. It was a lottery, school 70 or one of the catholic schools.

Regardless, pretty sensitive considering the outright detest exhibited to those in the burbs...well usually just Hamilton County.

I walked to school when I was a kid (k-8). What ever happened to that? Small neighborhood schools. I guess I don't really know if it is still the same, but my perception is that it's not like that anymore.

With all of these buy and shop local movements maybe we should start to talk about the same concept for our schools? Economies of scale might make it cost prohibitive, but my teachers taught multiple subjects so they really knew their students.

I walked to school when I was a kid (k-8). What ever happened to that? Small neighborhood schools. I guess I don't really know if it is still the same, but my perception is that it's not like that anymore.

With all of these buy and shop local movements maybe we should start to talk about the same concept for our schools? Economies of scale might make it cost prohibitive, but my teachers taught multiple subjects so they really knew their students.


Eddie, you have pointed out a very sound arguement and a main issue for urban based schools. All new schools in Indiana are subject to minimum acreages based on state regulation. This is something like 5 acres for elementary, 7 acres for middle school and 20 acres for high school. The idea behind it that I have heard is that if some kids can't walk to school, then no one should be able to. Economies of scale were another concept pushed for the mega schools you see, but they didn't care to account for transportation and infrastructure costs associated with this. You can check out Health by Design, an advocacy group for pedestrian safety in Indiana including safe routes to school.

SWEET.

One more:

Jack in the Box variance petition to allow a drive-through just south of 16th and Meridian was denied by the BZA this afternoon.


I thought for sure they would bow down and let this run through, awesome job Indy and planning staff. It will be interesting to see if JiB comes back with no drive through or what move they may take......

http://www.ibj.com/citizens-to-convert-downtown-steam-plant-from-coal-to-gas/PARAMS/article/30810

How will this NG conversion affect CSX and the tracks that run through DT East-West?

I assume that CSX uses these tracks for other freight but also gets payment for coal transport to the steam plant. Maybe without the added coal revenue and diminished necessity of the current route CSX will be more willing to look at a new route that doesn't cut DT in half?

As far as I can tell your entire argument is hearsay. Damaging and stealing property is definitely wrong, but as far as anyone can tell there is no evidence that he has done any of that. ....

Most of it is just urban art, and most writers are at least courteous about where and what they paint on. ....
Not hearsay; his posts sometimes state that he has broken through locks. This guy climbs and breaks into major structures -- construction cranes, tunnels, power plants, bridges, office towers -- all over the USA. He has climbed to the top of the construction cranes that were servicing the whole height of old INB tower and the new blue Marriott.

Red paint on decorative limestone, what we are currently cleaning, is not "courteous."

Like I said, get these guys over to your house and let them have at it.

Unless you were there and can give a firsthand account, by definition it is hearsay. My point is: There are worse things to get upset about. Nuisance, maybe. Danger to the public, no.

Winona Site Redevelopment (http://www.indystar.com/article/20111116/BUSINESS04/111160377/Museum-plans-residential-units-park-Winona-Hospital-site?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com)

This is encouraging! I can't wait to hear more details.

Marion County's problems in a nutshell: worse public services, older building stock, legacy costs, much higher crime, far worse schools => all with a higher tax rate than Hamilton County or other options. It's a no brainer for most people. When leadership shows nearly complete indifference to this, it isn't hard to conclude that Indy is heading for a bad patch.

Or more simply- Indy is OLDER than its suburbs. In time, the housing stock and congestion in the donut counties will deteriorate as well. Fishers and Carmel can't keep growing outwards forever.

This is a problem that confronts all large cities. The suburbs are newer and less crowded. That will change.

Maybe the recent increase in farm land value will help to curtail the sprawl a little and help add to that congestion.

http://www.ibj.com/citizens-to-convert-downtown-steam-plant-from-coal-to-gas/PARAMS/article/30810

How will this NG conversion affect CSX and the tracks that run through DT East-West?

I assume that CSX uses these tracks for other freight but also gets payment for coal transport to the steam plant. Maybe without the added coal revenue and diminished necessity of the current route CSX will be more willing to look at a new route that doesn't cut DT in half?

Most (if not all) CSX freight runs through downtown Indianapolis. The "Belt Line"... the southern loop of elevated tracks isn't signaled for automated traffic anymore. Much work would need to be done by CSX to get these tracks back in order.

Just a point of information... during SB2012 the downtown line will be shut down for a certain amount of time either side of the game. This will force manual dispatch of trains on the belt.

http://www.ibj.com/citizens-to-convert-downtown-steam-plant-from-coal-to-gas/PARAMS/article/30810

How will this NG conversion affect CSX and the tracks that run through DT East-West?

I assume that CSX uses these tracks for other freight but also gets payment for coal transport to the steam plant. Maybe without the added coal revenue and diminished necessity of the current route CSX will be more willing to look at a new route that doesn't cut DT in half?

There have been 2 studies over the last decade that have theorized how to relocate all of that freight downtown to the belt that surrounds DT. It would cost some money, but many operating efficiencies could be seen. The biggest hitch was figuring out how to get coal in and out of the Citizen's plan. Depending on how natural gas gets in, that could change. Maybe they will still bring it in by rail, just in tankers? Who knows...

I dont think CX is particularly glued to the downtown thru route. It slows trains and therefore, costs extra money. But finding a couple hundred million to rehab the belt? Nobody has that money right now...

There have been 2 studies over the last decade that have theorized how to relocate all of that freight downtown to the belt that surrounds DT. It would cost some money, but many operating efficiencies could be seen. The biggest hitch was figuring out how to get coal in and out of the Citizen's plan. Depending on how natural gas gets in, that could change. Maybe they will still bring it in by rail, just in tankers? Who knows...

I dont think CX is particularly glued to the downtown thru route. It slows trains and therefore, costs extra money. But finding a couple hundred million to rehab the belt? Nobody has that money right now...
My office is a half-block north of the tracks at New Jersey. A train is going by now, blowing its horn. I understand the rationale behind making the tracks go away or, maybe, hiding them more, but I think freight trains moving through downtown, adjacent to redeveloped and historic areas, increases the urban feel of downtown and is a positive. It differentiates downtown from, say, Car-mel. In light of arenn's recent statistical critique of Marion County and qualitative attack on some redevelopment projects (e.g. FCP and bike lanes), we need things, unrelated to statistics and trends, that make downtown feel like a big city. Trains, tracks and overpasses are one of those things. It is nice that the C T (including the LOS extenstion) goes under the tracks on Capital and Virginia. Young people thinking of moving downtown or back to or stayking in Indianapolis might look at the presence of trains as a positive.

There have been 2 studies over the last decade that have theorized how to relocate all of that freight downtown to the belt that surrounds DT. It would cost some money, but many operating efficiencies could be seen. The biggest hitch was figuring out how to get coal in and out of the Citizen's plan. Depending on how natural gas gets in, that could change. Maybe they will still bring it in by rail, just in tankers? Who knows...

I dont think CX is particularly glued to the downtown thru route. It slows trains and therefore, costs extra money. But finding a couple hundred million to rehab the belt? Nobody has that money right now...

Not just rehab and upgrade signaling...they'd have to add back the second track that was removed 10 or 20 years ago, and there would be some serious grade separation necessary from Sherman & 21st up to where the Belt runs across Mass Ave.

Since the Belt crosses I-70 a couple of times and I-65 once, and since this would remove hazardous material transport from downtown, and since this would make the CSX line from 10th to Union Station available for exclusive use of passenger rail, there's got to be some pot of federal transportation or homeland security money that could fund it.

Not just rehab and upgrade signaling...they'd have to add back the second track that was removed 10 or 20 years ago, and there would be some serious grade separation necessary from Sherman & 21st up to where the Belt runs across Mass Ave.

Since the Belt crosses I-70 a couple of times and I-65 once, and since this would remove hazardous material transport from downtown, and since this would make the CSX line from 10th to Union Station available for exclusive use of passenger rail, there's got to be some pot of federal transportation or homeland security money that could fund it.

Further...the rail line that Y's off CSX main and heads southbound along Delaware goes south to Kentucky Ave., then connects to the line along Kentucky. That ROW runs southwest to Ameriplex Parkway...where it could connect to the Airport by bridging I-70 instead of tunneling under runway from Washington St. (Not sure if this is "Indiana RR" trackage, or if it's also part of the Belt Line.)

Lilly/Rolls Royce/CityWay commuter station at Merrill St. Lilly Tech Center station at Kentucky/Raymond.

Think passenger trains instead of freight, jjgn! Way cooler.

There have been 2 studies over the last decade that have theorized how to relocate all of that freight downtown to the belt that surrounds DT. It would cost some money, but many operating efficiencies could be seen. The biggest hitch was figuring out how to get coal in and out of the Citizen's plan. Depending on how natural gas gets in, that could change. Maybe they will still bring it in by rail, just in tankers? Who knows...

I dont think CX is particularly glued to the downtown thru route. It slows trains and therefore, costs extra money. But finding a couple hundred million to rehab the belt? Nobody has that money right now...

This seems like a great idea... It would make it really easy to reuse Union Station as our Multi-Modal Transit Hub. The one thing that worries me is that the belt track runs through many neighborhoods (mine included). Would the upgraded signals allow the trains to operate without blowing their horns?

I wrote about it here:
http://www.urbanindy.com/2010/12/29/indy-mpo-report-explores-regional-freight-and-passenger-rail-traffic/

Here is the full report:
http://www.indympo.org/Plans/Local/Documents/Freight_1.pdf

Count me as one who loves the trains. I've been hearing them my entire life. There's something eerily "romantic" about waking up to them in the morning. I don't mind the occasional 5 or 10 minute wait they sometimes cause me at certain intersections.. that's just life in the city.

My office is a half-block north of the tracks at New Jersey. A train is going by now, blowing its horn. I understand the rationale behind making the tracks go away or, maybe, hiding them more, but I think freight trains moving through downtown, adjacent to redeveloped and historic areas, increases the urban feel of downtown and is a positive. It differentiates downtown from, say, Car-mel. In light of arenn's recent statistical critique of Marion County and qualitative attack on some redevelopment projects (e.g. FCP and bike lanes), we need things, unrelated to statistics and trends, that make downtown feel like a big city. Trains, tracks and overpasses are one of those things. It is nice that the C T (including the LOS extenstion) goes under the tracks on Capital and Virginia. Young people thinking of moving downtown or back to or stayking in Indianapolis might look at the presence of trains as a positive.

gmaps has new oblique imagery:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=39.752197,-86.140081&spn=0.001521,0.001635&t=h&z=20&vpsrc=6

London Sidewalk (or lack thereof) Experiment:

http://bit.ly/sGGam1

^^ Sounds a lot like Georgia Street - except that Ga Street was not extremely crowded with roadway vehicles.

There was a story on the news last night about the Ga Street project. They were discussing the additional work that needed to be done. While they did show some problem areas and things that needed fixing / completion -- they also were showing the terrible looking crumbling steps leading into Pan Am Plaza and seemingly blaming that on the contractor as well. I'm pretty sure those steps - and Pan Am Plaza in general - are not part of the Ga Street project. I hope somebody does do something to improve those steps though. They are pathetic -- and are right next to the main area that Super Bowl promotors want to fill with a hundred thousand people.

Count me as one who loves the trains. I've been hearing them my entire life. There's something eerily "romantic" about waking up to them in the morning. I don't mind the occasional 5 or 10 minute wait they sometimes cause me at certain intersections.. that's just life in the city.

My idea is more to fix the isolation of south street by all of the tunnel like bridges. If CSX can keep it N/S line and reroute the offshoot E/W line the underpasses and dirt mound infrastructure could be mostly removed. A commuter line could still come into union station on the same route, just with lighter duty raised infrastructure. It could open land for another future expansion of the convention center that opens up to the front door of LOS. It could allow the short bridge covered N/S corridors to potentially have store fronts. (new construction ie. Pennsylvania or existing ie. Meridian & Illinois) Overall it would do wonders to mend the rift between downtown and the lilly campus.

There is a lot to consider long term. I am not hating on the trains, just thinking about what the south side of DT could be.

They were making a ton of improvements as of today on Georgia when I walked by.

^^ Sounds a lot like Georgia Street - except that Ga Street was not extremely crowded with roadway vehicles.

There was a story on the news last night about the Ga Street project. They were discussing the additional work that needed to be done. While they did show some problem areas and things that needed fixing / completion -- they also were showing the terrible looking crumbling steps leading into Pan Am Plaza and seemingly blaming that on the contractor as well. I'm pretty sure those steps - and Pan Am Plaza in general - are not part of the Ga Street project. I hope somebody does do something to improve those steps though. They are pathetic -- and are right next to the main area that Super Bowl promotors want to fill with a hundred thousand people.

If the Pan Am Plaza steps don't get fixed I think someone should make a large sign that says something like "property neglected by Dali Associates LP" and put it on the steps during the super bowl. The owner would probably just think any PR is good PR though.

...the terrible looking crumbling steps leading into Pan Am Plaza.... I hope somebody does do something to improve those steps though. They are pathetic -- and are right next to the main area that Super Bowl promotors want to fill with a hundred thousand people.

Cover the steps with Astroturf for a couple of weeks in Jan-Feb. Cover the whole damn plaza, too!

There was a lot of Astroturf covered pavement at SB XLIV in Miami (we were there back when the Colts were good).

My idea is more to fix the isolation of south street by all of the tunnel like bridges. If CSX can keep it N/S line and reroute the offshoot E/W line the underpasses and dirt mound infrastructure could be mostly removed. A commuter line could still come into union station on the same route, just with lighter duty raised infrastructure. It could open land for another future expansion of the convention center that opens up to the front door of LOS. It could allow the short bridge covered N/S corridors to potentially have store fronts. (new construction ie. Pennsylvania or existing ie. Meridian & Illinois) Overall it would do wonders to mend the rift between downtown and the lilly campus.

There is a lot to consider long term. I am not hating on the trains, just thinking about what the south side of DT could be.

The current setup allows a whole different vibe south of the tracks!

All it needs is a dive bar called "Wrong Side of the Tracks" to fill out the ambience of the bus station, World's Ugliest (Andy Jacobs should be embarrassed!) Post Office, White Castle, Arby's, Subway, Ugly Monkey and Red Garter...:lol:

Count me as one who loves the trains. I've been hearing them my entire life. There's something eerily "romantic" about waking up to them in the morning. I don't mind the occasional 5 or 10 minute wait they sometimes cause me at certain intersections.. that's just life in the city.

I don't really consider the 5 or 10 minute waits to be part and parcel to life in the city. Cities typically have overpasses/underpasses where their freight train tracks cross arterial streets like are missing here at New York, Michigan, Roosevelt, Rural. Personally, I don't mind having the trains go by near me, it's the unseparated crossings that are a real drag on quality of life, especially as a pedestrian. It's not so bad sitting in a car listening to the radio, but standing and waiting, and waiting, and waiting for a 120-car freight train moving at 5-10 MPH is a real downer.

I did a really rough measure and worked from memory. FCP itself (also including the older Fall Creek Proper) is close to 500 housing units in an area about 0.35x0.85mi., or about 0.3 square miles. Since the population skews younger and married, let's assume a household size of 2.3 (that's one kid for every 3.33 housing units, which might be low). So 1150 people/0.3 sq.mi. = 3833 people per square mile. I don't think the unit count includes some pre-existing and new multi-family (like the "big green barn" condos east of Wendy's) dotted through the area. YMMV, probably higher.


Let's take that as a given. I'd argue that 3833/sqmi is insufficient for a viable neighborhood commercial infrastructure. The population of Center Township in 1950 was at an average density of 8,000/sqmi. And that includes accounting for tons of wasted space in parks and such than your cherry picked area doesn't have. Today the city-wide density of Minneapolis (not just a "midtown" district and including all the wasted space except water) is 6,969/sqmi.

Having been to many Indiana small towns in my life, it is easy to see that FCP was built in a layout and density that effectively identical. The notion that you can have a successful revived urban core on a small town model is not one where I can point to examples of success elsewhere.

If all that retail space is now fully occupied, that's a change from the last time I scanned it, when much of it was vacant. A business like Goose the Market is drawing from an extended trading area, not just the neighborhood. And even King Park CDC couldn't get a commercial node on 22nd off the ground, which shows that this is far from a viable retail district.

Let's take that as a given. I'd argue that 3833/sqmi is insufficient for a viable neighborhood commercial infrastructure. The population of Center Township in 1950 was at an average density of 8,000/sqmi. And that includes accounting for tons of wasted space in parks and such than your cherry picked area doesn't have. Today the city-wide density of Minneapolis (not just a "midtown" district and including all the wasted space except water) is 6,969/sqmi.

Having been to many Indiana small towns in my life, it is easy to see that FCP was built in a layout and density that effectively identical. The notion that you can have a successful revived urban core on a small town model is not one where I can point to examples of success elsewhere.

If all that retail space is now fully occupied, that's a change from the last time I scanned it, when much of it was vacant. A business like Goose the Market is drawing from an extended trading area, not just the neighborhood. And even King Park CDC couldn't get a commercial node on 22nd off the ground, which shows that this is far from a viable retail district.
The 9 units in Douglas Pointe Lofts are currently:

2507-09 Delaware - Matchbook Creative (http://www.sparktoignite.com/) (ad agency)
2505 - Transformation Fitness & Wellness (http://indianapolispersonaltraining.com/) (AKA Circle City Boot Camp)
2503 - Goose the Market (http://goosethemarket.com/)
2457 - Salon Orange Moon (http://www.salonorangemoon.com/)
2455 - "Agora" in the windows (not open yet but looks to be an eatery in the works)
2453 - Guidon Design (http://www.guidondesign.com/) (architecture/engineering firm)
2451 - Recently gutted and rebuilt interior for what a worker told me was a tech firm of some sort
2449 - Honestly don't know anything about this one, but I've seen people coming and going so it's occupied

I also don't believe FCP has a density of 3833. According to the 2010 census the population density for all of Marion County is 2279.6, so it seems a little hard to believe that the density of FCP is only 70% higher than that of the ENTIRE COUNTY.

There's no direct measure of population density for FCP in the census, but tract 3516 is a fairly close proxy (see here) (http://www.stats.indiana.edu/maptools/c2010/tracts.asp). It's roughly bounded by Fall Creek to the north and west, 21st to the south and New Jersey to the east. That includes most of the original FCP plan as well as the non-residential swath between Illinois and Pennsylvania and all of the Meridian-Highland Neighborhood. According to the 2010 census that area has a population of 1989 (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2jc5Uz8tftvNmZmNGE1OWItMmRkOS00YzgyLWE5NDUtMWI2NzYzYzBjNWVk).

I don't know how to find the area of tract 3516, but let's just square it off and say it's Capitol to New Jersey (0.6 miles) and 21st to 27th (0.6 miles) or 0.36 square miles. That works out closer to 5525 people per square mile and that includes the GROSS assumption of squaring off the area as well as the large non-residential swath in the middle of the tract. The residential density of FCP proper is likely much, much higher than that, perhaps approaching the Center Township number from 1950 (which makes sense given that this neighborhood is laid out exactly the same as it - and most of Center Township - was laid out in 1950).

I located the land area of census tract 3516 from 1990 (http://www.census.gov/geo/www/ezstate/IN.pdf) and it's actually slightly larger than my estimate: 0.39 sq.mi. Using our hard numbers, the 2010 population density of that tract is:

1989 people / 0.39 sq.mi. = 5100 persons per square mile

That includes Barton Park, Kessler Park, the two FCP HOA parks at 25th/Alabama and 23rd/Alabama, a LOT of undeveloped land (particularly along Meridian/Illinois and on the SW corner of the tract), the spotty density of Meridian-Highland, and vacant lots in Fall Creek Place itself, which is not 100% built out even in the original sections.

In any case, it's pretty obvious that the population density of FCP is quite a bit higher than we're talking about here.

Let's take that as a given. I'd argue that 3833/sqmi is insufficient for a viable neighborhood commercial infrastructure. The population of Center Township in 1950 was at an average density of 8,000/sqmi. And that includes accounting for tons of wasted space in parks and such than your cherry picked area doesn't have. Today the city-wide density of Minneapolis (not just a "midtown" district and including all the wasted space except water) is 6,969/sqmi.

Having been to many Indiana small towns in my life, it is easy to see that FCP was built in a layout and density that effectively identical. The notion that you can have a successful revived urban core on a small town model is not one where I can point to examples of success elsewhere.

If all that retail space is now fully occupied, that's a change from the last time I scanned it, when much of it was vacant. A business like Goose the Market is drawing from an extended trading area, not just the neighborhood. And even King Park CDC couldn't get a commercial node on 22nd off the ground, which shows that this is far from a viable retail district.

Mr. Renn,

Chris has provided a good arguement back for the density of FCP. I want to chime into the commercial aspect. The success or lack thereof for some of the commercial properties has been skewed due to the down turn. Chris provided an update on 25th and Delaware. I spoke with the Director for KPADC and he mentioned 3 tenants have agreed to lease space in the project at 22nd and Delaware. He needs 2 more to make the project a go. All of this activity is happening in a commercial market that often lags behind the housing trends. It may not have reached the bottom yet, but there is interest in the FCP area.

JohnM, obviously there are many problems that are difficult to solve, like schools. But there are many things, little things perhaps but things nevertheless, that require sometimes nothing but a willingness to pick up the phone. A couple examples:

1. That abandoned sign for the temporary library at the old city hall building. It was a complete eyesore and a code violation to boot. I brought this up to multiple direct reports of Ballard multiple times and nobody removed it. Not until I posted a blog item on it and send a chorus of complaints their way did it get removed. Locals don't notice or care to deal with blatant and easily addressable eyesores only a couple blocks from city hall.

2. I similarly brought up the crumbling, ghetto big green signs at Keystone and 86th. I haven't been there in a while, so I'll go out on a limb and say this, but I expect they are still there. Keep in mind, most of Carmel just one mile north is pristine.

3. DPW to this day continues to engineer roads that do not even match suburban standards for what is being built in the collar counties Indianapolis today. No one seems concerned about this. Nor have they figured out how to design a decent urban street. That's why the water company money that goes to streets is going to mostly end up pissed away. In some cases (eg., West 38th) it is arguable that elements of the project are worse than what they are replacing. I see nothing to suggest that anything is changing here, except implementing bike lanes that as I noted are obsolete designs.

4. INDOT pulled hundreds of millions in Major Moves funding from the I-69 northeast corridor upgrade. I blogged about this, sent info on it to the mayor's office and others, but as near as I can tell, almost nobody even knows they got fleeced, much less cares. (I finally found one person who was willing to follow up on it). If you are willing to let the state yank that kind of money without a peep or even stirring in your slumber, that's stunning. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in other cities.

Again, you can bring clear, easy to action points to the attention of people who can address them, and they just don't care. They either don't get it, or if they do, they just don't care. When your own civic leaders take so little pride and have so little passion for their own city, something is very, very wrong. When it take a full court press to get the city to remove an eyesore sign two blocks from city hall, don't expect that any of the actual real, hard problems are going to get addressed anytime soon.

I couldn't agree more with this post. I didn't really know about point # 4, but it seems consistent with my general belief that the City does so little to communicate and negotiate with the State regarding local projects under State jurisdiction. Example: no sidewalks constructed on Brookville Road in conjunction with the widening project east of I-465, because the City did not lobby for them. Counterexample: sidewalks built on Pendleton Pike east of I-465, because Lawrence lobbied for them. Example: Seven continuous lanes of asphalt and curbside sidewalks on Washington Street between I-465 and German Church Road, then east of GCR we get a four-lane divided street with landscaped medians, tree lawns, a lower speed limit, and a fairly safe and enjoyable place to walk. Why? Because Indianapolis didn't ask for anything, while the Town of Cumberland insisted upon getting a fairly complete and attractive street project. What was built through the Town of Cumberland was not what INDOT originally proposed. It was only altered after civic leadership stood up for their community and demanded a better design.

Re Point # 3, I'd wonder why they haven't learned how to design a decent street, since you'd think that the MPO would've given them a copy of their Multi-Modal Design Guidelines document that they paid a consultant to create, which now apparently serves to protect some City-County Building bookshelves from dangerous dust accumulation. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the two-fold answer is that a) DPW just doesn't buy into it and/or doesn't care to do anything differently, and perhaps more importantly, b) the MPO and DMD, who would presumably be the more progressive and innovative thinkers, are absolutely unwilling to challenge DPW at all.

So, we keep getting terrible projects like the current W. 38th St, with sidewalks that virtually nobody will use and deathtrap intersections where crosswalks are literally twice as long as they need to be for the amount of travel lanes on 38th Street and the cross streets.

What sometimes bothers me most, with all due respect to people who simply disagree with me, is some of the comments I see on these message boards from people who seem to want the same improved quality of life that I seek, but who apologize for the City, as if it's doing the best that it can. Spending tens of millions of dollars to end up with a project that is only marginally better, if at all, then before is not acceptable progress in a city that has so far to go to be a world-class city that attracts and retains enough smart, young, creative, productive and educated people to sustain its future. It just simply shouldn't be acceptable.

Counterexample: sidewalks built on Pendleton Pike east of I-465, because Lawrence lobbied for them.

Yabut, there are no crosswalks to get across Pendleton Pike! Someone I know in Lawrence lobbied for them, and INDOT refused because the crossings are so long and it would interfere with the light phasing i.e. car movement and waiting. In short, they're "highway guys" at INDOT.

On this one, I am entirely with you. When we, and by "we" I mean "anyone building or rebuilding a major road in Marion County for us", are rebuilding we should move the sidewalks back from the curb, improve safety if possible, improve function if possible, and provide an aesthetically pleasing corridor for all.

I am not sure it's always possible to include everything from the "complete streets" bible on secondaries or in outlying areas without acquiring additional ROW. Some tradeoffs are probably needed. But I generally agree: any rebuilding should at minimum improve some aspect of the street design without degrading any others: First, do no harm.

I tend to favor the pedestrian improvements, but sometimes stormwater handling must be the major focus. Sometimes an intersection is really dangerous (for ped crossing or for cars hitting each other) and that's what needs to be addressed. It always depends on thorough evaluation of the site.

Yabut, there are no crosswalks to get across Pendleton Pike! Someone I know in Lawrence lobbied for them, and INDOT refused because the crossings are so long and it would interfere with the light phasing i.e. car movement and waiting. In short, they're "highway guys" at INDOT.

On this one, I am entirely with you. When we, and by "we" I mean "anyone building or rebuilding a major road in Marion County for us", are rebuilding we should move the sidewalks back from the curb, improve safety if possible, improve function if possible, and provide an aesthetically pleasing corridor for all.

I am not sure it's always possible to include everything from the "complete streets" bible on secondaries or in outlying areas without acquiring additional ROW. Some tradeoffs are probably needed. But I generally agree: any rebuilding should at minimum improve some aspect of the street design without degrading any others: First, do no harm.

I tend to favor the pedestrian improvements, but sometimes stormwater handling must be the major focus. Sometimes an intersection is really dangerous (for ped crossing or for cars hitting each other) and that's what needs to be addressed. It always depends on thorough evaluation of the site.

The ironic part of this is that INDOT is constructing a bridge over I-69 at 126the street right now. One of the components of the bridge is a 12 foot lane for a bike & pedestrian trail.

I located the land area of census tract 3516 from 1990 (http://www.census.gov/geo/www/ezstate/IN.pdf) and it's actually slightly larger than my estimate: 0.39 sq.mi. Using our hard numbers, the 2010 population density of that tract is:

1989 people / 0.39 sq.mi. = 5100 persons per square mile

That includes Barton Park, Kessler Park, the two FCP HOA parks at 25th/Alabama and 23rd/Alabama, a LOT of undeveloped land (particularly along Meridian/Illinois and on the SW corner of the tract), the spotty density of Meridian-Highland, and vacant lots in Fall Creek Place itself, which is not 100% built out even in the original sections.

In any case, it's pretty obvious that the population density of FCP is quite a bit higher than we're talking about here.

My rough measure used the "measure" feature of Indy's GIS, and it included the greenway parkland along the creek plus all the streets, parking lots and interior pocket parks in FCP. According to Google Maps, 22nd to the creek and Scioto to Central is 0.2 square miles (0.5 x 0.4, squared off). That difference between 0.3 square miles (calculated from GIS measurement in miles) in the denominator and 0.2 (from Google Maps) is really big and would change the initial estimate to 5750/sq. mi., much more in line with the Census. Size matters. :)

There are other places for error to creep in: household size, and units. One could drill deeper, to the Census Block groups, because Meridian is the dividing line between the tract's two groups. The block group to the east would be a good proxy for FCP. Last time I checked, though, the full block group data of people and housing units hadn't been released. That's why I did my estimate.

In comparing the whole Census tract to FCP, though, The Meridian @ 21 cluster and the multifamily in HMP between 21st and 22nd on Penn, Talbott, and Delaware, plus all of the apartments on Meridian and in Meridian-Highland help the census tract with density and all are outside FCP. Sheldrake alone houses about 65-80 (depending on occupancy in the 2br units). That's 30 single-family houses worth of people on the space of four FCP lots.

All in all, I'd have to agree with Chris: my back of the envelope estimate was probably low, and the real density number is probably somewhere in the 4500-5700 range. I'll see if I can come up with real numbers.

The ironic part of this is that INDOT is constructing a bridge over I-69 at 126the street right now. One of the components of the bridge is a 12 foot lane for a bike & pedestrian trail.

[insert your own snotty comment about people in Hamilton County getting what they want here]

Wonder if the forthcoming new Allisonville Road bridge (I think this is at least the second one in the 30 years I've been in Indy) will feature space for a 12-foot bike-ped trail?

I think this just supports the point made by Aaron and underscored by Idyllic: the squeaky wheel does get the grease, and Indy isn't squeaking.

No wheel is squeakier than Bloomington. It held up a much needed widening of SR 46 so that improved pedestrian features were implemented. As a result, the widened SR 46 includes landscaped medians, sidewalks along the length of the road, and a pedestrian/bicycle underpass allowing uninterrupted travel between residential areas.

When SR 48 was widened on the far west side of the city, INDOT put in sidewalks set back from the road and bike lanes.

Indy should have so much more leverage than Hamilton County or Bloomington. When Carmel has better pedestrian infrastructure than Indianapolis, serious problems in city leadership exist. That is the problem with Ballard. He has no vision or desire to transform Indy into a better place. He won't even support a smoking ban. His support for transit has been tepid at best.

[insert your own snotty comment about people in Hamilton County getting what they want here]

People in Hamilton County fight hard to get what they want. People in Marion County don't even ask.

Jim Brainard fought hard to get control of Keystone Ave., which INDOT wanted to simply widen to a six lane road. He then built the nicest interchanges anywhere in Indiana. This included meetings directly with the governor. I wish I were at liberty to discuss some of what I know about that, but you would not believe INDOT's behavior in this.

Now he's been fighting hard to get US 31 done like Keystone and pushing for a one year hyperfix instead of five years of pain. INDOT has repeatedly said roundabout interchanges won't work. Carmel has been paying to fly in engineers from England to show them that they can.

He may not win every battle, but Brainard is willing to go to the mat for his city. In Indianapolis, nothing. And btw, hoosier, it's very bi-partisan. Melina Kennedy would have been no different and Bart Peterson let INDOT build the widest freeway offramp in the entire metro area right downtown at Washington St. (plus a seven lane road plus many other design bogosities).

A look at Carmel shows everything that is wrong with Indianapolis. I hate their aesthetics. The faux Georgian and such is annoying and their public art makes me want to vomit. But there's a place that has implemented real change, projects that aspire to excellence, real urbanism (including proper urban form of a type you almost never see even in downtown Indy), etc. Frankly, if you want a walkable urban neighborhood, Central Carmel may be nearly the best place for it. I'd give strong consideration to living there if I ever move back to Indy. Especially since they keep getting better and better and I'm confident the city is moving in the right direction on things over time.

Jim Brainard:

- Has a vision for Carmel rooted in something I think many of us would agree with.
- It willing to publicly articulate and defend it, expend political capital on projects that are in line with it, and put his ass on the line at the ballot box for it.
- He's willing to go to the mat for his city on any other front - the state, the media, etc.
- He sweats the details on his projects (maybe even too much - I'm not sure he should be picking the public art)

15 years ago Carmel was basically a dump in many ways. Now there's been a huge change for the better, making that city a national leader for others to emulate. That's mostly because of one good leader.

What Indianapolis desperately needs is a people with influence to stand up and demand better and really start executing on the same four points as Brainard. You can argue Brian Payne has done that with the Cultural Trail. But in a city like Indy, there's a limit to what one guy can do. Imagine if everybody with a similar profile to Payne took on one project like that. We'd have a vastly different city in no time.

That's what frustrates me. Unlike so many other places I look, Indy has all the ingredients to be a true juggernaut. The potential is unlimited but alas I think it is being squandered.

As for Fall Creek Place, if you all think that's a great model, by all means build more of them. We can debate what we think, and ultimately the marketplace will render its judgement. I wish you luck on that point. But as for me, I give Indy's urban core revitalization strategy (at least as much as I know about it) a big vote of no confidence.

People in Hamilton County fight hard to get what they want. People in Marion County don't even ask.

Jim Brainard fought hard to get control of Keystone Ave., which INDOT wanted to simply widen to a six lane road. He then built the nicest interchanges anywhere in Indiana. This included meetings directly with the governor. I wish I were at liberty to discuss some of what I know about that, but you would not believe INDOT's behavior in this.

Now he's been fighting hard to get US 31 done like Keystone and pushing for a one year hyperfix instead of five years of pain. INDOT has repeatedly said roundabout interchanges won't work. Carmel has been paying to fly in engineers from England to show them that they can.

He may not win every battle, but Brainard is willing to go to the mat for his city. In Indianapolis, nothing. And btw, hoosier, it's very bi-partisan. Melina Kennedy would have been no different and Bart Peterson let INDOT build the widest freeway offramp in the entire metro area right downtown at Washington St. (plus a seven lane road plus many other design bogosities).

A look at Carmel shows everything that is wrong with Indianapolis. I hate their aesthetics. The faux Georgian and such is annoying and their public art makes me want to vomit. But there's a place that has implemented real change, projects that aspire to excellence, real urbanism (including proper urban form of a type you almost never see even in downtown Indy), etc. Frankly, if you want a walkable urban neighborhood, Central Carmel may be nearly the best place for it. I'd give strong consideration to living there if I ever move back to Indy. Especially since they keep getting better and better and I'm confident the city is moving in the right direction on things over time.

Jim Brainard:

- Has a vision for Carmel rooted in something I think many of us would agree with.
- It willing to publicly articulate and defend it, expend political capital on projects that are in line with it, and put his ass on the line at the ballot box for it.
- He's willing to go to the mat for his city on any other front - the state, the media, etc.
- He sweats the details on his projects (maybe even too much - I'm not sure he should be picking the public art)

15 years ago Carmel was basically a dump in many ways. Now there's been a huge change for the better, making that city a national leader for others to emulate. That's mostly because of one good leader.

What Indianapolis desperately needs is a people with influence to stand up and demand better and really start executing on the same four points as Brainard. You can argue Brian Payne has done that with the Cultural Trail. But in a city like Indy, there's a limit to what one guy can do. Imagine if everybody with a similar profile to Payne took on one project like that. We'd have a vastly different city in no time.

That's what frustrates me. Unlike so many other places I look, Indy has all the ingredients to be a true juggernaut. The potential is unlimited but alas I think it is being squandered.

I hesitate to call Carmel a national leader. Yes they have done amazing things at great cost, but it is as unsustainable as possible. Esentially, the wealth of Indy moved north with incentives, and are now recreating what already existed. I completely understand that Indy has downgraded and let a lot....I mean A LOT of things go, but Indianapolis is a huge investment in place. The city has a lot of existing energy and resources in place. Carmel is doubling those efforts in a suburb. They are funding land banks, development and architecture to create a fake center for the wealthy to feel good about themselves. The Palladium and surrounding development is in the middle of nowhere and completely out of scale. No more apt title exists than Disneyland in the cornfield.

As for the state roads, we all know INDOT is a joke. A plan to widen these roads is no plan at all, but investing huge sums of money into these highways simply incentivizes the relocation of people out to the suburbs. What used to almost be a hassel in traffic, is now reuced for some years before enough people relocate to slow traffic again. You have often claimed that transit is a poor economic model, I argue roads come at a higher cost to society than any other transportation. Roads support a weak land use that in turn supports the building of more roads. I always say, when a train gets crowded, you add another train car. When a road gets crowded, you have to add another road or expanded lanes which are permanent even if the congestion is peak hour. A development like Carmel cannot exist everywhere and the severe segregation, both racial and economical, is by no means a model to aspire to. Carmel is the equivalent to an "open air concept" mall. It attempts to be an urban center, but after all it is simply a failed suburban shopping complex.

As a 21 year old, who's originally from Charleston SC, and having now lived in Indy for 6 years, I find i still love Indy more than i ever enjoyed Charleston. But it is not without reluctance these days i say that. There are neighborhoods and districts that are doing well, but the whole unit is not functioning the way a center of 2 million people, and an emerging cultural center should. I suppose it does act very much like a capitol city is expected to run. If that expectation is one of a quiet and sedated like subservience to the status quot, all while ignoring the money moving through downtown and the lack of integrity with which it's being spent ... then you have our current situation.

It's a bit eerie, just how transparent Indianapolis' situation should be to everyone, and yet you're yielding voter turnouts of only 30 percent. That's embarrassing. Especially for a city that has the economic potential this city has. Clearly people don't want to stir that pot too much,even though things as they have been, have gotten us to the worst financial crisis in eons, we don't want to chance on change. Things are very safe and slow compared to somewhere like Charleston, which actually has developed too fast in some circumstances. But that's not a problem in a city that is essentially america's hospitality and tourism capitol. I grew up In a Burb called Mt. Pleasant which is Carmel's clone on a beach, but with an awful, run of the mill deep south school system, with as many problems as IPS has, and it managed to grow from 1990, when i was born, go from 27,000 residents to 67,000 residents by the time i left in 2005. The median income for a household : 61,000, and the median family income is: 71,000. It was well off by the time i had a left, and my parents were able to sell a 2100 sq ft house for 595,000 on an acre,(you could easily find 4000Sq. Ft. for that in the indy metro) not near any water or golf course either.

Mt pleasant eventually got crowded and once that happened highways were starting to widen, but they were built with landscaped medians and sidewalks and stylized lighting. Parking lots appeared, but a rule was instituted for new parking lots: any trees greater than (2 or 3feet?) in diameter had to be built around, or if removal was needed, special review was required and ample alternative landscaping would be required in its absence. Also throughout a majority of infrastructure projects, Utility lines were buried, since it is a hurricane and earthquake prone area. While I for the most part support RebuildIndy, i think far to much of it goes to repaving roads when certain roads should be removed outright, or graveled for the time being. But the real insult is on comprehensive projects like 46th st. and Broad Ripple Avenue where utility lines were essentially ignored. Sure they didn't interfere with sidewalks, but why not when the opportunity presents itself take the time to prevent future issues of outages, storm damage, winter, and pedestrian right of way problems. Just doesn't make sense to ignore it.

Indianapolis is a beautiful city for the most part, it has this heartland mashup of architecture that is as american as it gets. Its not very contemporary but thats ok, because what it lacks in futurism, it definitively has in homeyness. It just doesn't enforce codes that are in place or that could be put in place that could further enhance the appeal of Greenway trails, and things like the Monon, and the CT, which are amazing projects, and are essentially the beach front property of our town for a reason. Indy's problems for the most part can be solved with common sense solutions and i would say it has a 60 to 70 percent chance of coming out of the current national situation better than most of its piers. I think if it did what Charleston did, by establishing america's first livability court in 2002, that was specifically structured around cases involving non-compliance with codes and standards about housing, waste, the environment, noise, animal control, zoning, traffic, and tourism.

From the city of Charleston's website

Mission Statement: To create a system that effectively enforces applicable ordinances to improve the livability and quality of life of all City of Charleston residents, while being fair and just to the accused and to promote an environment that is receptive to tourism and historic preservation.
Livability Court is an innovative way to handle age-old citizen concerns and quality of life issues. Previously, these type of cases were shuffled through the regular criminal court system and viewed often times as insignificant. However, livability issues can have serious, detrimental effects on neighborhoods and communities when left unresolved. Livability Court is devoted to such issues and promotes healthy communities and good citizenship.


Enforcement

The rules and ordinances pertinent to livability cases are enforced through the coordinated efforts of Livability Court Judges, City of Charleston Department Staff, and the City of Charleston Police Department.


All relevant and central issues to creating livable, and ECONOMICALLY Viable destinations for talent, and entrepreneurs. If you could create something like this here on the local level,with the same language i think it would go along way towards convincing prospective urban residents.

Everyone should be seriously concerned about the state of the electrical and sewer infrastructure beneath DT Indianapolis. Yet ANOTHER massive explosion rocked the east side of DT yesterday evening (11/19) blowing manhole covers sky high and setting a car on fire. It is amazing no one has been killed yet.

IPL needs to be held accountable for the clear neglect of its infrastructure which has jeopardized the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.

I can only begin to imagine the embarrassment and negative publicity such an explosion would cause during Superbowl week.

To me, more soul in my one block of, say, Cottage Home, than in all of Carmel ... despite the great round-abouts and nice created wetlands (in Central Park) and the aggressive performance arts programming at the big, big limestone structure.

To me, more soul in my one block of, say, Cottage Home, than in all of Carmel ... despite the great round-abouts and nice created wetlands (in Central Park) and the aggressive performance arts programming at the big, big limestone structure.

100% agree! The legacy that the white flight generation left up there is pretty ugly. Some good things going on, but socially and culturally Carmel is 20 years behind. Lots of weird racial undertones up there still and a huge lack of outside culture make for a weird place. I am so glad that I don't work there anymore.

Everyone should be seriously concerned about the state of the electrical and sewer infrastructure beneath DT Indianapolis. Yet ANOTHER massive explosion rocked the east side of DT yesterday evening (11/19) blowing manhole covers sky high and setting a car on fire. It is amazing no one has been killed yet.

IPL needs to be held accountable for the clear neglect of its infrastructure which has jeopardized the lives of hundreds of thousands of people.

I can only begin to imagine the embarrassment and negative publicity such an explosion would cause during Superbowl week.

That's another reason I'd love to see Citizens buy IPL as well.

If we want to address the problem of the city we have to start with marketplace reality. In a region that grew by 231,000 people in the last decade, we actually saw a drop in population in Center Township. This means the marketplace has rendered its verdict. Yes, there have been pockets of population gain, esp. near downtown. But these were very small in proportion to the overall trend line. And the places that saw those gains were also beneficiaries of disproportionate government attention and funds as a rule. Indy may have an investment in place, but that asset is worth less than we think it is. In particular, much of the investment is in the form of obsolete streets and such that require reconceptualization and replacement at great expense.

Secondly, most people like living in the suburbs. It's that simple. You and me might prefer walkable urban districts (though remember that also includes having something to walk to), most people prefer a more suburban environment (though perhaps with some walkability options). In this case I am in the minority from your average person.

Given that, what's happening in Carmel is of critical importance to the region. Top life sciences researchers, people with lots of kids, high level corporate executives, etc. may perhaps want to live in a tiny house in Cottage Home. But I suspect most of them would prefer a high end estate or suburban house. So having the best suburbs as well as the best urban core is critical. You can't prop the central city up by telling the suburbs not to improve themselves. If Carmel is doing things that are better than Indy is, whose fault is that?

It is very clear that they are nation leading in some regards, such as their roundabout deployments and roundabout interchanges. The current standard collector street in Carmel is also the highest quality design I've seen anywhere. Incidentally, Drewbie, Carmel's mayor wants to bury every power line in the city.

I personally would not have built the Palladium. I also think Brainard has a belief Carmel can be a standalone entity, when clearly it can't. But on the whole it is a big asset. Peer suburbs in places like Columbus and Cincinnati don't measure up.

The challenge for Indy is to bring the same focus to raising its own game. Because in an every more globalized, complicated, competitive world, every part of a region needs to bring its A game. Right now the city of Indianapolis is, with the exception of select "special" projects like the Cultural Trail, too often just mailing it in.

If we want to address the problem of the city we have to start with marketplace reality....most people like living in the suburbs.

(Gasp)

You mean we can't just close our eyes, click our heels, and repeat "there's no place like Center Towship" three times? I realize there are some fantasy urbanists out there, but really Aaron, stuff is happening.

Fountain Square has arrived. Irvington is pretty stable. Broad Ripple, Merdian Kessler, and Butler Tarkington are neighborhoods of choice.

The city and its institutions are doing or building:
-the Cultural Trail and getting ready to connect the Fall Creek Trail to Meridian Street
-bike lanes on fresh asphalt all over town
-knocking down abandoned houses, Winona, and Fawlty Towers
-millions of dollars worth of housing on the Near East Side and near north side
-CityWay
-The New Eskenazi Health
-IU Health Neuroscience Center
-Ivy Tech expansion
-Charter schools

All futile? I'm more optimistic. Millenials supposedly prefer urban living, though the surveys may simply be capturing a "stage of life" preference rather than a lifetime one. It is clear that the Xers prefer the suburbs, and that the housing crash has delayed the predicted shift of empty-nest boomers back to the city. Time will tell.

Aaron, we have been very critical of the rebuild indy investments over at the blog. I have spent A LOT of time taking apart a lot of what they have done. There have been a few bright spots here and there where real lane reduction has happened but as you have pointed out, this huge investment which is really bonding against future rate increases, is really not creating a big change. This is a wonderful opportunity to actually make a dent in how things operate. Broad Ripple Ave and the new bike lanes represent a focused area where real change is affecting the current condition. And it wasnt even a large cash expenditure to do it.

But on the whole, no new creation of sidewalks in old neighborhoods. No funding to transit unless you are lopping the bike lanes in with them, which are something. For instance, it costs $5k to design, build, contract and construct a covered bus shelter. Not a single release has mentioned any spending on that and in the context of road paving, striping, widening, etc. thats NOTHING.

The bad part is that you hear snippets here and there that this money is addressing DPW backlogs. Backlogs of what, putting lipstick on the pig of a transportation system we currently have? I agree with you 100% on the rebuild indy stuff as well as what Carmel is doing. There is real leadership going on there whether or not it is what we would all be supportive of.

But back to your bigger point, you know a lot of the players here that aren't doing something. What are they afraid of? Getting knocked off the perch by someone holding bigger reigns? What is really going on here preventing people from doing something about the problem?

I don't really consider the 5 or 10 minute waits to be part and parcel to life in the city. Cities typically have overpasses/underpasses where their freight train tracks cross arterial streets like are missing here at New York, Michigan, Roosevelt, Rural. Personally, I don't mind having the trains go by near me, it's the unseparated crossings that are a real drag on quality of life, especially as a pedestrian. It's not so bad sitting in a car listening to the radio, but standing and waiting, and waiting, and waiting for a 120-car freight train moving at 5-10 MPH is a real downer.

the real downer is the that most motorists don't turn their engines off while waiting for the train to pass.

The current setup allows a whole different vibe south of the tracks!

All it needs is a dive bar called "Wrong Side of the Tracks" to fill out the ambience of the bus station, World's Ugliest (Andy Jacobs should be embarrassed!) Post Office, White Castle, Arby's, Subway, Ugly Monkey and Red Garter...:lol:

Whistle Stop Inn is that dive bar.

For instance, it costs $5k to design, build, contract and construct a covered bus shelter. Not a single release has mentioned any spending on that and in the context of road paving, striping, widening, etc. thats NOTHING.


Maintenance. On IndyGo's declining budget, that's an issue and there has to be an "adoption partner" for a shelter.

However, I've personally seen to five new shelters on a busy line, and have gotten a couple of stops moved to safer locations in the process. I don't qualify as a mover or shaker. More like a nudger. You and the bloggers know the same people, Curt, and you could ask too. Do some research, target a few good prospects, and call or write email.

All it took was one email to get rid of a "right turn only" lane at College & Mass Ave that was causing unsafe lane jockeying and dangerous backups during Trail construction.

This is the dowside of a "low service" government environment: it's up to us to do some of the work instead of just bitching that nothing is happening.

Maintenance. On IndyGo's declining budget, that's an issue and there has to be an "adoption partner" for a shelter.

However, I've personally seen to five new shelters on a busy line, and have gotten a couple of stops moved to safer locations in the process. I don't qualify as a mover or shaker. More like a nudger. You and the bloggers know the same people, Curt, and you could ask too. Do some research, target a few good prospects, and call or write email.

All it took was one email to get rid of a "right turn only" lane at College & Mass Ave that was causing unsafe lane jockeying and dangerous backups during Trail construction.

This is the dowside of a "low service" government environment: it's up to us to do some of the work instead of just bitching that nothing is happening.

I have open conversations with plenty of folks but frankly, getting a right turn only lane changed is simple compared to convincing a mayor to sack up and get tough.

I see where you are coming from though. We could all pick up the phone a little more often

I have open conversations with plenty of folks but frankly, getting a right turn only lane changed is simple compared to convincing a mayor to sack up and get tough.

I see where you are coming from though. We could all pick up the phone a little more often

You're right, it was simple. But I did it by going to someone I'd gotten to know through public meetings.

Don't waste your time trying to get to the mayor. This stuff you're advocating isn't really huge budget or policy stuff, and plans/political cover are in place. The modern Fall Creek Trail has been shovel-ready since 1999; the Parks people hated to see me coming the last couple of years, because they just couldn't push it over the line. But every time they tried, I got on board and got others to support it too. Finally it got funded. I could fume and fuss that no one else made it a priority, or I can be happy that it is finally going to get checked off, and we can turn our attention elsewhere.

Getting it done is smaller stuff that gets decided by people at or just below department director level. People you know, who likely share some of your aims. (Like the utility-pole-in-the-sidewalk stuff.) Lots of small improvements add up.

Timely piece from Project for Public Spaces, featuring a familiar graphic from Indianapolis' multimodal design guidelines here (http://www.pps.org/blog/are-complete-streets-incomplete/).

A key excerpt:

"We at PPS like to say that engineers can ruin a good street, but they cannot create a good street — a street that is truly complete — through engineering alone. A small but growing group of communities have recognized that to really “complete their streets,” they need genuinely place-based and community-based transportation policies that go beyond routine accommodation."

That means, in short, "listen to the neighbors".

No one, not business owners, not public servants, and not licensed design professionals, has a monopoly on wisdom or enough knowledge to give people in every neighborhood what they want and need in all circumstances, without engaging the users in a dialog.

One size does not fit all.

Timely piece from Project for Public Spaces, featuring a familiar graphic from Indianapolis' multimodal design guidelines here (http://www.pps.org/blog/are-complete-streets-incomplete/).

A key excerpt:

"We at PPS like to say that engineers can ruin a good street, but they cannot create a good street — a street that is truly complete — through engineering alone. A small but growing group of communities have recognized that to really “complete their streets,” they need genuinely place-based and community-based transportation policies that go beyond routine accommodation."

That means, in short, "listen to the neighbors".

No one, not business owners, not public servants, and not licensed design professionals, has a monopoly on wisdom or enough knowledge to give people in every neighborhood what they want and need in all circumstances, without engaging the users in a dialog.

One size does not fit all.

That is a good article. I particularly like this part:

Streets need to be designed in a way that induces traffic speeds appropriate for that particular context. Whereas freeways — which must not drive through the hearts of cities — should accommodate regional mobility, speeds on other roads need to reflect that these are places for people, not just conduits for cars. Desired speeds can be attained with a number of design tools, including changes in roadway widths and intersection design. Placemaking can also be a strategy for controlling speeds,. Minimal building setbacks, trees, and sidewalks with lots of activity can affect the speed at which motorists comfortably drive.

Speed kills the sense of place. Cities and town centers are destinations, not raceways, and commerce needs traffic — foot traffic. You cannot buy a dress from the driver’s seat of a car. Access, not automobiles, should be the priority in city centers. Don’t ban cars, but remove the presumption in their favor. People first!

Great reply Kevin!

In regards to the part about building setbacks, lane width and ROW and such, there are certain corridors that over time have grown accustomed to moving fast to travel upon them. Building design along these corridors have corresponded with that by offering large setbacks, street fronted parking lots and when taken in sum, induce people to drive fast since the landscape is built to that scale.

Conversely, introducing measures including bike lanes to slow that back down so that people get first consideration is key. When neighbors get upset that they may not have been asked first, nor businesses given the trump card over everyone, it doesnt mean that the wrong decision was made. It just means that everyone may be overly conditioned to the current built form and when that vehicle is put into a lower gear, everyone automoatically jerks forward like there is a problem....

Just sayin

That is a good article. I particularly like this part:

Streets need to be designed in a way that induces traffic speeds appropriate for that particular context. Whereas freeways — which must not drive through the hearts of cities — should accommodate regional mobility, speeds on other roads need to reflect that these are places for people, not just conduits for cars. Desired speeds can be attained with a number of design tools, including changes in roadway widths and intersection design. Placemaking can also be a strategy for controlling speeds,. Minimal building setbacks, trees, and sidewalks with lots of activity can affect the speed at which motorists comfortably drive.

Speed kills the sense of place. Cities and town centers are destinations, not raceways, and commerce needs traffic — foot traffic. You cannot buy a dress from the driver’s seat of a car. Access, not automobiles, should be the priority in city centers. Don’t ban cars, but remove the presumption in their favor. People first!

I read one particular part a lot differently than you:

Speed kills the sense of place. Cities and town centers are destinations, not raceways, and commerce needs traffic— foot traffic

In the context of a current community discussion, this clearly applies to the "village center" of Broad Ripple, which is pre-automobile. But it is separated from Ye Olde Glendale Towne Centre by a couple of miles of primary urban arterial, where 30-35 is a perfectly reasonable and safe travel speed. And Glendale is an entirely car-oriented development...there isn't a single direct sidewalk from 62nd to the front door of a store. There is one from Keystone to Macy's and Target; one to Panera; there is one from Rural that eventuall leads to Target. All have at least wide driveway crossings so are of questionable safety. This despite at least three reconfigurations of the shopping center over 30 years, one of which used a pile of city money. THAT was the big missed opportunity.

Because 99% of everyone who lives between the village center and Glendale:

(1) owns a car,
(2) uses a car as his/her primary means of transportation to get outside the neighborhood, and
(3) bought or rented a place on a sidestreet served by two primary arterials,

those folks' concerns about access and commuting have to be primary when the arterials are altered. When they spoke last on the subject at public workshops, they favored the mid-neighborhood ped-bike connection.

Here is the perverse, unintended side effect of making everyday life harder for people in that single-family residential section of Broad Ripple between BRHS and Glendale: a portion of the folks who would otherwise live there will now consider locations with easier commutes. Places that are even more car-dependent.

People are not entirely rational creatures. If faced with a nagging, twice-a-day traffic nuisance going to and from work that adds to other factors (older housing stock, generally bad public schools), their entire perception of an area might change enough that they will say "I loved living in Broad Ripple, but it was just too much of a hassle." People already leave BR for the 'burbs when their kids get to school age; we don't need to keep giving them more excuses.

I am a much bigger fan of separated bike and multi-user paths and trails than of 5' bike lanes installed for the purpose of choking traffic down. I believe that the Storrow Kinsella proposal for a bike-ped corridor within the residential neighborhood on 61st St. would have been a much better, safer, and fairer solution for everyone in the area than the current (new) reconfiguration of Broad Ripple Avenue. It would have highlighted safety. It would have made a walk or ride much more pleasant and neighborly. It would have calmed traffic where it is really needed: where people are out walking and kids are (or could be) out playing. And it would have honored the community-based planning work that was already done.

I think this hints at something the Urbanophile has said from time to time:

If we continue to fight the battle on the suburbs' terms, i.e., we can have a better road infrastructure than you, then we will continue to lose. But if we change the game to promote a better urban infrastructure than the suburbs can ever hope to have, then the city stands a chance at attracting new residents.

I've been through Broad Ripple in a car. Yes, it is congested. I have heard from some people involved in the project that the lights at Primrose and Evanston will be adjusted to let more cars pass through on Broad Ripple avenue, which should help some of the back-up problems.

Also, wouldn't it be a good thing if, for instance, some people who live along the route look at the congestion and the mostly-empty bike lane, and think that they can actually travel to Broad Ripple faster if they went by bicycle? That would help alleviate the congestion one car at a time, save pollution, save money, and encourage neighborhood health.

I also would support adding parallel parking along the route, if the ROW is wide enough to support it.

the real downer is the that most motorists don't turn their engines off while waiting for the train to pass.

I always feel strange when I turn my car off, because I'm the only one, and like I might get in trouble for not being ready to go quickly enough when the train passes.

[QUOTE=cdc guy;85900034]Timely piece from Project for Public Spaces, featuring a familiar graphic from Indianapolis' multimodal design guidelines here (http://www.pps.org/blog/are-complete-streets-incomplete/).

A key excerpt:

"We at PPS like to say that engineers can ruin a good street, but they cannot create a good street — a street that is truly complete — through engineering alone. A small but growing group of communities have recognized that to really “complete their streets,” they need genuinely place-based and community-based transportation policies that go beyond routine accommodation."
[QUOTE]

The example from the Indianapolis “Multimodal Corridor and Public Space Design Guidelines” illustrates how this new genre of street policies specifies Placemaking guidance as well as how to accommodate all modes.

Kinda sad that PPS must assume that Indianapolis doesn't need any help on this issue, since we are one of the shining examples, because we have this great design guideline book... except that IT RARELY EVER GETS USED!

I think this hints at something the Urbanophile has said from time to time:

If we continue to fight the battle on the suburbs' terms, i.e., we can have a better road infrastructure than you, then we will continue to lose. But if we change the game to promote a better urban infrastructure than the suburbs can ever hope to have, then the city stands a chance at attracting new residents.

This was exactly the first thing that came to mind for me. Especially since you noted the ease of car travel to the suburbs Chris.

I can't fight with you on things like added time to travel to a destination or added time waiting at a traffic light or there are more cars. However, even with all of that considered, have you travelled to any of the north side malls lately? Fashion Mall, Castleton or even Clay Terrace ALL have waits to turn into their parking lot. Then, if you are not one of the few lucky ones to get a prime parking spot you are still parking, walking a distance, and then walking some more once you get in the door.

What are we really saying here? That by building our travel network in the city to match that, that we accept that suburban wait in line in a car oriented development is right?

People may not make the right decision and they may battle ones that are made such as the case being made against Broad Ripple and the bike lanes right now. But over time, I imagine everyone will grow used to it, any hiccups in business will work itself out and life will go largely uninterupted in regards to commerce and the happy side affect is that for those of us who wish to walk to the dog park or ride our bike to boogie burger, we can do it along the same throuh fares that a car does with much less worry than we did a few weeks ago.

I think we can all be glad INDOT wasnt brought in to manage this, because we'd have another Keystone Avenue par street funnelling into the village and THAT would a heartbreak worth fighting about

I always feel strange when I turn my car off, because I'm the only one, and like I might get in trouble for not being ready to go quickly enough when the train passes.

Nah, you're not the only one. I do too.

Unless you're the first car AND not paying attention when the end of the train goes by, there's plenty of time to fire it back up.

I think this hints at something the Urbanophile has said from time to time:

If we continue to fight the battle on the suburbs' terms, i.e., we can have a better road infrastructure than you, then we will continue to lose. But if we change the game to promote a better urban infrastructure than the suburbs can ever hope to have, then the city stands a chance at attracting new residents.

I've been through Broad Ripple in a car. Yes, it is congested. I have heard from some people involved in the project that the lights at Primrose and Evanston will be adjusted to let more cars pass through on Broad Ripple avenue, which should help some of the back-up problems.

Also, wouldn't it be a good thing if, for instance, some people who live along the route look at the congestion and the mostly-empty bike lane, and think that they can actually travel to Broad Ripple faster if they went by bicycle? That would help alleviate the congestion one car at a time, save pollution, save money, and encourage neighborhood health.

I also would support adding parallel parking along the route, if the ROW is wide enough to support it.

A mindset that cars should be significantly hindered in the parts of the city PLANNED AND BUILT FOR CARS is an urbanist fantasy that most people don't share. I am specifcally talking about the 99% residential area between Kessler and BR Ave from BRHS to Glendale plus the residential area between BR Park and Keystone north of BR Ave.

The idea that a young family can live without using a car in such an area is nonsense unless they take great pains to arrange their whole lives around their transportation options. And that's really, really hard and requires really committed people. The 1%.

The idea that even a significant minority of people will park their cars in favor of walking or biking on short errands or to work YEAR ROUND in Indy is, once more, an urbanist fantasy.

Here are some things I've done in the heart of Broad Ripple Village or in Glendale that are really not practical to do from a mile or two away on a bike:

1. Shop for groceries for a family, at Kroger, Marsh and Sunflower.
2. Take dogs to Broad Ripple Animal Clinic for their checkups.
3. Buy large (40-lb.) bags of dog food.
4. Take kids to daycare.
5. Drop off/pick up laundry and drycleaning.
6. Take kids to the doctor.
7. Fill up with gasoline.
8. Fill the lawnmower gas can.
9. Pick up printing at FedExKinkos.
10. Buy large items at Lowe's or Target.

These are the kinds of errands that are typically done close to home. Again...the vast majority, probably 90-99% of people, do these things daily or weekly by car and will continue to do them by car.

Rearranging someone's neighborhood in ways that inconvenience them daily (and in ways which move more car traffic onto residential side streets) is just not right, especially when they have contributed time and effort to a community plan that provides a workable alternative for a bike-ped corridor.

I'm done here. I'm not saying that people in the neighborhood will have to do without a car. I'm saying they can conceivably cut down on their amount of car trips. Yet somehow this is a bad thing. Like I said, I'm done here with this argument. I'm convinced that me and my cohorts on the blog will be on the right side of history here, and I for one am not backing down.

I'm done here. I'm not saying that people in the neighborhood will have to do without a car. I'm saying they can conceivably cut down on their amount of car trips. Yet somehow this is a bad thing. Like I said, I'm done here with this argument. I'm convinced that me and my cohorts on the blog will be on the right side of history here, and I for one am not backing down .

Listening to people is the first step to a dialogue in which you might convince them that SOME of what you believe/want is right and find a way to get it done. TELLING people that you're right (without acknowledging any other opinions or facts) is just not a good way to convince others.

One last try:

I never painted your position as suggesting "people in the neighborhood will have to do without a car". Nice straw man, though.

I said that people in the neighborhood just about have to do certain everyday things in a car; there really is no other option for many errands and commute trips. Making those trips harder for them is a bad thing, not a good thing, when there is an alternative bike-ped route that would have allowed BR Ave. to remain 4 lanes.

(Now, if you really are rigidly dogmatic about "forcing people out of cars" by choking traffic, and just using bike lanes as a convenient cover, then it's a whole 'nother argument, one that we'll never agree on.)

Making those trips harder for them is a bad thing, not a good thing, when there is an alternative bike-ped route that would have allowed BR Ave. to remain 4 lanes.

(Now, if you really are rigidly dogmatic about "forcing people out of cars" by choking traffic, and just using bike lanes as a convenient cover, then it's a whole 'nother argument, one that we'll never agree on.)

Traffic should be choked on broad ripple avenue because of the nature of that area. A four lane highway through that area is not neutral, it favors cars in an area that should favor people. Don't choke traffic just to choke traffic, but the nature or the area should be the highest consideration. If you live near there it is because of broad ripple not because there is a four lane access road. Even if there is an alternative route the best rout is the direct connection. BR Avenue is not a cross town connector and should not be thought of as such. It's main purpose is to connect people to BR and the surrounding neighborhoods. If you think it is there to be a convenient thoroughfare you should just find an ALTERNATE route plenty of those exist for the cars already.

Also, cars are not banned. You can still drive, it just means you can't fly down the street. Have you ever driven in a city other than Indy? If you think that the extra time that this will cost you is anything substantial in comparison you are kidding yourself.

I'm listening, I just don't agree with you. This is a perfect street to fight for increased densification and urbanization due to its proximity to Broad Ripple proper.

What I really wonder is, what is so great about this section of Broad Ripple avenue that is so worth fighting to preserve? I've walked up and down it, and there are abandoned houses along this stretch. Possibly because it is not attractive to live there due to the fast flowing traffic and lack of parallel parking.

Here's what I support to help out the auto congestion..lengthen the timing of the lights at Primrose and Evanston. I'm not sure if that goes against urbanist dogma or not, but I don't care. I don't want to piss people off or make them move away. I just push for a more equitable transportation system that benefits the safety of all modes of travel. And I will be consistent in this position. I've built a website around the notion, after all.

Traffic should be choked on broad ripple avenue because of the nature of that area. A four lane highway through that area is not neutral, it favors cars in an area that should favor people. Don't choke traffic just to choke traffic, but the nature or the area should be the highest consideration. If you live near there it is because of broad ripple not because there is a four lane access road. Even if there is an alternative route the best rout is the direct connection. BR Avenue is not a cross town connector and should not be thought of as such. It's main purpose is to connect people to BR and the surrounding neighborhoods. If you think it is there to be a convenient thoroughfare you should just find an ALTERNATE route plenty of those exist for the cars already.

Also, cars are not banned. You can still drive, it just means you can't fly down the street. Have you ever driven in a city other than Indy? If you think that the extra time that this will cost you is anything substantial in comparison you are kidding yourself.

1. Learned to drive in Philadelphia. Saw the wisdom of living there carless, and did so. Have driven in all major US cities except Boston and Manhattan. Won't drive in Boston or Manhattan; don't drive in DC or Philly (unless I am in a vehicle with Indiana plates). That's what transit is for.

2. Read the posts on Urban Indy, particularly the neighbors with reasonable complaints on drastically-increased times to turn onto BR Ave and increased traffic on the parallel streets in the heart of the neighborhood. Those are real everyday quality-of-life issues that will change people's perception of place.

3. BR Ave carries 21-24,000 cars per day. They are NOT all headed into the Village for a drink and dinner. It is a primary arterial at that level of traffic, on par with Meridian, Kessler, 38th. The peak segment is the mostly non-commercial leg between BRHS and Evanston.

4. In the village, traffic has always moved about 15mph and I think that's just fine...in the "pre-auto" Village. East of Thr33 Wise Men, different story.

5. There was a proposal several years back to create a bike-ped path on 61st from Monon to Glendale, developed through community-based planning: the expressed will of the people who lived there. It was a good idea then. It still is: safety, separation, ease of use. Everyone does bike lanes; they're cheap and easy. Indy could lead with separated corridors throughout town. That's a game-changer.

6. The state of denial about the necessity of a car and car infrastructure in Indy is astounding. Blaming the ills of idiot distracted drivers on "car-focused infrastructure" is nuts. Stupid people don't pay attention, text and talk while driving and hit things and people. It's not the road's fault.

7. Let's get our transit system fixed with secure, stable funding to do the job right. (And IMO that means FIX MARION COUNTY FIRST. Ballard was right: they knew what they were getting when they moved out there.) The combination of transit and protected bike-ped options will make Indy cool, and get people out of cars at rush hour. But that's a "pull", not a push, and part of a comprehensive effort.

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, goes the old Hoosier country saying. I agree.

I'm listening, I just don't agree with you. This is a perfect street to fight for increased densification and urbanization due to its proximity to Broad Ripple proper.

What I really wonder is, what is so great about this section of Broad Ripple avenue that is so worth fighting to preserve? I've walked up and down it, and there are abandoned houses along this stretch. Possibly because it is not attractive to live there due to the fast flowing traffic and lack of parallel parking .

The issue isn't BR Ave itself. It's that people who live on the streets off the avenue have to use it or Kessler to get everywhere.

The vacancy issue probably has a little to do with greedy owners and hope for piecemeal commercial conversion.

Solution: densify the residential frontage on BR Ave from single and double homes to townhomes or apartment blocks with alleys and rear parking. But that would mean more cars and more drivers at rush hour in the absence of good transit.

But if the main north-south rail transit corridor jogged from College to Keystone on BR Ave...problem solved.

CDC guy: Any credibility you had with me was lost when you stated that Broad Ripple Avenue is on par with Meridian Street, Kessler Blvd and 38th Street. Good Grief.

And I'm sure you'll try to explain yourself by stating you were talking about the "peak ADT" segment between BRHS and Evanston -- like you stated. Just to let you know in advance though --- I disagree with that if that's what you think. 38th Street, Meridian St. and Kessler Blvd (particularly the first two) run all the way across the County and are MAJOR roadways. Br. Ripple Avenue is nothing like those roadways.

The issue isn't BR Ave itself. It's that people who live on the streets off the avenue have to use it or Kessler to get everywhere.

The vacancy issue probably has a little to do with greedy owners and hope for piecemeal commercial conversion.

Solution: densify the residential frontage on BR Ave from single and double homes to townhomes or apartment blocks with alleys and rear parking. But that would mean more cars and more drivers at rush hour in the absence of good transit.

But if the main north-south rail transit corridor jogged from College to Keystone on BR Ave...problem solved.

I've always the thought the far and away best route for rail would be going north from downtown on Meridian (or College) to Broad Ripple, then east to Keystone, then north to 86th, and then east to Castleton Square. I never could figure out why the planners kept insisting that the Nickel Plate line running between large lot backyards, with so few commercial destinations should be the preferred route. Maybe they were more focused on the Hamilton County park and riders, or are unable to foresee or understand the potential for urban densification in Marion County.

CDC guy: Any credibility you had with me was lost when you stated that Broad Ripple Avenue is on par with Meridian Street, Kessler Blvd and 38th Street. Good Grief.

And I'm sure you'll try to explain yourself by stating you were talking about the "peak ADT" segment between BRHS and Evanston -- like you stated. Just to let you know in advance though --- I disagree with that if that's what you think. 38th Street, Meridian St. and Kessler Blvd (particularly the first two) run all the way across the County and are MAJOR roadways. Br. Ripple Avenue is nothing like those roadways.

Check the numbers at the MPO website. The high-count section of BR Ave from the HS east is (or was) "on par" (+/- 10%) with Meridian between 40th and 54th both in cross-section and traffic counts, though clearly not on neighborhood or psychic value to the city.

In this argument, the issue is traffic-choking a busy street. It IS a busy street, and the study cited on Urban Indy flat-out says that this kind of conversion is likely to create significant negatives for the neighbors.

I was a little surprised when I looked up the numbers: it is busier than the same E-W stretch of Kessler. Since Kessler, Meridian, College and Westfield are the only midtown White River bridges, and since all converge within a few blocks of the Village, and since Westfield/BR/62nd IS the northernmost midtown crosstown route from Meridian to Glendale, Allisonville, and Binford (i.e.north of Kessler, south of 86th), this makes some sense. It serves a lot of functions besides carrying partiers to bars.

Give me a little credit: I lived within a mile or two of Monon/BR Ave for more than two decades, driving, walking, and running there. I owned a business on the avenue for most of those years. Most of the people arguing with me do not live there or have similar experience as a daily driver there. The people posting in agreement on UI do live there and have experienced significant issues.

I've always the thought the far and away best route for rail would be going north from downtown on Meridian (or College) to Broad Ripple, then east to Keystone, then north to 86th, and then east to Castleton Square. I never could figure out why the planners kept insisting that the Nickel Plate line running between large lot backyards, with so few commercial destinations should be the preferred route. Maybe they were more focused on the Hamilton County park and riders, or are unable to foresee or understand the potential for urban densification in Marion County.

I think it's the path of least resistance and cost. Like you, I scratch my head at the lack of activity clusters between Castleton and Downtown, and the utter lack of destinations for riders living south of 49th & Keystone.

A mindset that cars should be significantly hindered in the parts of the city PLANNED AND BUILT FOR CARS is an urbanist fantasy that most people don't share. I am specifcally talking about the 99% residential area between Kessler and BR Ave from BRHS to Glendale plus the residential area between BR Park and Keystone north of BR Ave.

The idea that a young family can live without using a car in such an area is nonsense unless they take great pains to arrange their whole lives around their transportation options. And that's really, really hard and requires really committed people. The 1%.

The idea that even a significant minority of people will park their cars in favor of walking or biking on short errands or to work YEAR ROUND in Indy is, once more, an urbanist fantasy.

Here are some things I've done in the heart of Broad Ripple Village or in Glendale that are really not practical to do from a mile or two away on a bike:

1. Shop for groceries for a family, at Kroger, Marsh and Sunflower.
2. Take dogs to Broad Ripple Animal Clinic for their checkups.
3. Buy large (40-lb.) bags of dog food.
4. Take kids to daycare.
5. Drop off/pick up laundry and drycleaning.
6. Take kids to the doctor.
7. Fill up with gasoline.
8. Fill the lawnmower gas can.
9. Pick up printing at FedExKinkos.
10. Buy large items at Lowe's or Target.

These are the kinds of errands that are typically done close to home. Again...the vast majority, probably 90-99% of people, do these things daily or weekly by car and will continue to do them by car.

Rearranging someone's neighborhood in ways that inconvenience them daily (and in ways which move more car traffic onto residential side streets) is just not right, especially when they have contributed time and effort to a community plan that provides a workable alternative for a bike-ped corridor.


CDC Guy,
Your thought process is one of a desire to keep things as is because that is what they have been. Your assertions that it is nearly impossible to drop the car for many trips is incorrect and flawed. It is a different lifestyle, yes, but not a worse one. Now, you go to the store once a week, once every two weeks? You load up on groceries because of the hassel of driving and the expense of driving multiple times. If you make this trip by bike, you go more often and perhaps trend into buying fresher, healthier foods as you don't bulk up to store items. Then we begin to discuss a lower need for mega sized refrigerators and energy use. WOW! What a concept. How often to you buy big ticket, large items at Lowe's or Target? I havent purchased anything I couldn't carry on bike in over 2 years. They have carts you can attach to a bike to carry kids to daycare. You can certainly pick uo printings and put them in a back pack. I have easily transported large format plans by bike.

There are simple solutions to every "issue" you come up with. If you enter this discussion with a mindset that Indy is for cars and that's that, then you have limited your vision and ability for discussion. People say, "It's not practical or possible to ride a bike for me." I show you the people that haven't tried. No one here is ignorant enough to think that this bike lane on BR AVE is going to make the car obsolete. We do however, believe that a bike lane on BR AVE will lead to a higher percentage of trips by bike, mode share, and thus a lower concentration of auto dependency. It takes many steps to alter a mindset, flawed by years of improper investment, but we will try.

Listening to people is the first step to a dialogue in which you might convince them that SOME of what you believe/want is right and find a way to get it done.

Dude the most frustrating part of this argument isi that you havent even given us an inch on this. NOT A SINGLE INCH.

If you want to talk about listening, how about at least considering a little bit of what we have said. We have listened to your arguments, some of the neighbors who have chimed in pro and con and I still stand by what I have said.

Totally off topic, and for those who havent seen the lit trees on Mass Ave yet, I snapped a picture over the weekend.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6033/6383077723_d2d11227f9_z.jpg

And for those who like the downtown skyline in the clouds, I snapped a couple more last night
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6229/6383081713_630c200706_z.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6114/6383083171_eea3797cc9_z.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6115/6383087177_7b99460ee1_z.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6047/6383095909_c9888a9821_z.jpg

I always feel strange when I turn my car off, because I'm the only one, and like I might get in trouble for not being ready to go quickly enough when the train passes.

Growing up on the south side of Chicago you always turned your engine off. Getting stuck up there was so common that everybody did it.

CDC Guy,
Your thought process is one of a desire to keep things as is because that is what they have been. Your assertions that it is nearly impossible to drop the car for many trips is incorrect and flawed. It is a different lifestyle, yes, but not a worse one. Now, you go to the store once a week, once every two weeks? You load up on groceries because of the hassel of driving and the expense of driving multiple times. If you make this trip by bike, you go more often and perhaps trend into buying fresher, healthier foods as you don't bulk up to store items. Then we begin to discuss a lower need for mega sized refrigerators and energy use. WOW! What a concept. How often to you buy big ticket, large items at Lowe's or Target? I havent purchased anything I couldn't carry on bike in over 2 years. They have carts you can attach to a bike to carry kids to daycare. You can certainly pick uo printings and put them in a back pack. I have easily transported large format plans by bike.

There are simple solutions to every "issue" you come up with. If you enter this discussion with a mindset that Indy is for cars and that's that, then you have limited your vision and ability for discussion. People say, "It's not practical or possible to ride a bike for me." I show you the people that haven't tried. No one here is ignorant enough to think that this bike lane on BR AVE is going to make the car obsolete. We do however, believe that a bike lane on BR AVE will lead to a higher percentage of trips by bike, mode share, and thus a lower concentration of auto dependency. It takes many steps to alter a mindset, flawed by years of improper investment, but we will try.

Hoo boy, did you ever step in it. Bad assumptions all the way around.

I drive maybe 7,000 miles a year, the vast majority within Center Township where now I live and work. My roundtrip weekly commute is 62.5 miles; it would be a couple of miles longer if I stuck to streets with bike lanes. I must commute by car because my employer requires that I look and smell clean, and there are no facilities to shower or change at work if I ride.

The car commute takes 15 minutes and the roundtrip uses about 3/4 of a gallon of gas. I'd have a car anyway; mine is paid for, so those are sunk costs. My only incremental cost of commuting is gas; I change oil and tires on time rather than distance. IndyGo alleges a trip time of 34 minutes without walking or waiting, and it costs $3.50 round trip for a day pass (less for a monthly, I know). Transit takes more than twice as long and costs more; that's an irrational change.

I didn't mention that the 3 nearest grocery stores to my house IN CENTER TOWNSHIP are all about two miles away. I can walk to mechanics (3), c-stores (3), fast food outlets (2) and a dollar store within a mile, but no groceries or farmers markets.

I stop for groceries at Pogue's Run Grocer 1.5-2 times a week on my way home from work (on average; I can check with Nate tonight for actual stats). I helped START Pogue's Run Grocer to alleviate the NESCO neighborhood food desert created by the closings of Marsh (Sherman & Washington) and Kroger (Woodruff Place).

I combine errands as much as possible, and I typically walk from the office to my doctor, dentist, bank, and drugstore and many work functions.

In other words, I do the things others preach, without preaching (too much) and I'm sick of people imagining that I'm stuck in a suburban mentality because I recognize the necessity of a car in Indy.

I no longer have to haul kids around, but once did. A lot of the people criticizing me don't have school-age kids, or more than one kid. How many people in Indy actually haul an infant to daycare EVERY DAY, regardless of weather, in a bike trailer? Two? How many can walk a child to daycare, 500? All the rest of the daycare parents, thousands and thousands, need a car.

I live in the urban reality that is Indianapolis. The vast majority of us (well over 90%) cannot live full lives here without cars. PERIOD. Mobility = cars. The solution is not choking primary arterials. The solution is funding IndyGo...and giving the buses plenty of room to run. Check the next post for some eye-opening traffic counts.

Totally off topic, and for those who havent seen the lit trees on Mass Ave yet, I snapped a picture over the weekend.


Nice!

Also totally off topic, but I just uploaded them last night... A bunch of pictures of Bush Stadium I took with my iPhone on Oct 28 here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ablerock/sets/72157628089978981/


http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6221/6380400689_ef128492f1_z.jpg

CDC Guy,
Your thought process is one of a desire to keep things as is because that is what they have been. Your assertions that it is nearly impossible to drop the car for many trips is incorrect and flawed. It is a different lifestyle, yes, but not a worse one. Now, you go to the store once a week, once every two weeks? You load up on groceries because of the hassel of driving and the expense of driving multiple times. If you make this trip by bike, you go more often and perhaps trend into buying fresher, healthier foods as you don't bulk up to store items. Then we begin to discuss a lower need for mega sized refrigerators and energy use. WOW! What a concept. How often to you buy big ticket, large items at Lowe's or Target? I havent purchased anything I couldn't carry on bike in over 2 years. They have carts you can attach to a bike to carry kids to daycare. You can certainly pick uo printings and put them in a back pack. I have easily transported large format plans by bike.

There are simple solutions to every "issue" you come up with. If you enter this discussion with a mindset that Indy is for cars and that's that, then you have limited your vision and ability for discussion. People say, "It's not practical or possible to ride a bike for me." I show you the people that haven't tried. No one here is ignorant enough to think that this bike lane on BR AVE is going to make the car obsolete. We do however, believe that a bike lane on BR AVE will lead to a higher percentage of trips by bike, mode share, and thus a lower concentration of auto dependency. It takes many steps to alter a mindset, flawed by years of improper investment, but we will try.

My thought process...wow. Now you're inside my head?

Please recognize that you are an outlier. I definitely don't want you to impose your values to solve my problems. I'll find my own way, thank you very much.

Even urbanists like me, people who live in the old city and send their kids to IPS and spend their lives inside 465, buy stuff from big box stores. That doesn't make us evil materialists with a suburban mindset. It makes us normal. The Lowes at Glendale is one of their busiest stores anywhere. Marsh had the same experience when they opened at 62nd/Keystone. Macy's kept their freestanding store at Glendale when the mall was blown up, closing mall stores at Washington and Lafayette Squares.

The personal vehicle delivers an unbeatable combination of convenience and time savings, not to mention hauling capacity and protection from the elements. And at low cost, when you buy old cars and keep them forever like I do.

I'm not soft: I raised two Marines. But I am going to take the easiest, cheapest path when I can.

Okay, now the traffic stats.

Which of these streets should be one traffic lane each way?

Key "Midtown" traffic counts (from MPO website):

Broad Ripple Ave., College to Keystone
lowest segment 21.2K through village
highest segment 25K, BRHS-Evanston

56th/Kessler between White River and Binford
highest segment: College-Keystone, 21.6K

52nd & 46th between College & Keystone
both 11-12K

38th St. between Meridian & Fall Creek Parkway
highest segment: College-FCP, 26.6K

Meridian between 38th & 73rd
highest segment: Westfield-64th, 24.3K

Dude the most frustrating part of this argument isi that you havent even given us an inch on this. NOT A SINGLE INCH.

If you want to talk about listening, how about at least considering a little bit of what we have said. We have listened to your arguments, some of the neighbors who have chimed in pro and con and I still stand by what I have said.

Curt, I've been doing what others just talk about doing for a lot of years now and I'm sick of being preached at. Some people in this discussion can't back up their thoughts with thoughtful and specific arguments other than what amounts to platitudes: "cars bad, bikes good" and "we've got to force people out of cars" and "bikes are a good substitute for car trips". One person offered an academic study that proved my point more than his...then accused me of being "reckless" for pointing this out.

That's just plain unadulterated bullshit.

Look at those car counts. Look at the parking lots in Glendale. Look at where people's jobs are compared to where they live. That's not evil, it's free choice.

We cannot turn back the clock to 1910. We cannot force people to live their lives within walking or biking distance of home. Even in the greenest, most commuter-friendly US cities, less than 10% bike. Nowhere does the bicycle have a larger mode share than transit.

And buslines cannot run on two-lane "arterials" unless (1) they're dedicated busways, or (2) there are turnouts. The congestion they run in and help create will bog them down.

Should we all drive less? Yes. I've been personally driving less and less to reduce my environmental footprint.

Should we all ride transit to work? Yes, when the system can offer a reasonable alternative to driving.

Should good buslines serve the residents of Broad Ripple, running crosstown on Kessler and BR Ave frequently? Yes.

Should we have separated and safe bike-ped options all over town, including Broad Ripple? Yes. (And one was proposed for 61st St. years ago, never implemented.) Let the cars/drivers have their space. Give the cyclists and pedestrians theirs. They may not be the same!

These all look like points of (mostly) agreement to me.

In my world, we've got to pull people out of cars, selling them on a "diet" lifestyle of less driving. Not cram it down their throats.

This looks like THE point of disagreement to me.

Look at those car counts. Look at the parking lots in Glendale. Look at where people's jobs are compared to where they live. That's not evil, it's free choice.

it's not free choice, its years of bad policy being informed by lobbyists who wanted to make a profit off of making and selling cars and it still exists today. Pick up a paper and read about the latest surface transportation bill talks. Its still a majority of roads.

You talk about choice and I frankly, Id love the choice to ride my bike wherever I want free of having to get mowed down by a car but accoding to you, since we all live in the current built environment its just too damn bad to try and do something about it because we all chose this model.

We aren't going to unscrew what has taken decades to screw up but if we keep reinforcing it, we will get more of it.

My thought process...wow. Now you're inside my head?

Please recognize that you are an outlier. I definitely don't want you to impose your values to solve my problems. I'll find my own way, thank you very much.

Even urbanists like me, people who live in the old city and send their kids to IPS and spend their lives inside 465, buy stuff from big box stores. That doesn't make us evil materialists with a suburban mindset. It makes us normal. The Lowes at Glendale is one of their busiest stores anywhere. Marsh had the same experience when they opened at 62nd/Keystone. Macy's kept their freestanding store at Glendale when the mall was blown up, closing mall stores at Washington and Lafayette Squares.

The personal vehicle delivers an unbeatable combination of convenience and time savings, not to mention hauling capacity and protection from the elements. And at low cost, when you buy old cars and keep them forever like I do.

I'm not soft: I raised two Marines. But I am going to take the easiest, cheapest path when I can.

I didn't say people never buy large items from these stores, but you make it out to be a daily task. The car seems cheap because I helped pay for the roads you use to get there. If true costs were associated with car based travel, mass transit would be so much more appealing. By its very nature, it is efficient. I suppose we could argue the tremendous amount of resources we use to simply acquire oil for auto based transportation including military lives, but that is not the point of this topic. I am saying there is a segment of the population that needs safer places to operate. There is a segment of population that would ride or walk if provided safe places and there is yet another segment that may never get out of their car, but recognizes the need for a healthy society and is aware of the positive externalities of a multimodal society. Your arguement is purely car driven. All of your points and counterpoints deal with getting a car quickly form place to place at the cost of everything else.

Nice!

Also totally off topic, but I just uploaded them last night... A bunch of pictures of Bush Stadium I took with my iPhone on Oct 28 here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ablerock/sets/72157628089978981/


http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6221/6380400689_ef128492f1_z.jpg

Matt & Curt, great pictures. Although, Curt, maybe you shouldn't be getting so close to those manhole covers...

Matt & Curt, great pictures. Although, Curt, maybe you shouldn't be getting so close to those manhole covers...

hahaha, a similar thought ran through my head......

Some news from the IBJ about some financing plans being worked on that could possibly help move the "Cosmopolitan II" project forward:

http://www.ibj.com/flaherty-nears-deal-for-cosmopolitan-investment/PARAMS/article/30919

Dude the most frustrating part of this argument isi that you havent even given us an inch on this. NOT A SINGLE INCH.

If you want to talk about listening, how about at least considering a little bit of what we have said. We have listened to your arguments, some of the neighbors who have chimed in pro and con and I still stand by what I have said.

Curt, I considered the posts. I looked for facts and numbers to help make a considered decision. I jumped in (possibly to get you guys to say "hey wait a minute" to yourselves) after I actually read the paper your partner cited in support, and found that it doesn't really support this change.

I haven't previously pointed out that most of the examples cited in the paper had traffic levels well below BR Ave, in small towns. (I actually drove through one of the paper's cited segments recently, US 34 in Osceola IA.)

I haven't called anyone reckless or uncompromising, though I did call bullshit on someone else's "mind-reading" post when s/he purported to know what's going on inside my head and clearly didn't know me or anything about me.

Could you MAYBE concede any of these:

1. The BR Ave. reconfiguration MIGHT have the flaws that everyone has pointed out: added congestion, delays, and more neighborhood cut-through.
2. That BR Ave. MIGHT be too busy a street to choke down east of the village.
3. That somewhere between 11,000 cars (it worked on 46th & 52nd) and 25,000 cars per day (BR Ave) MIGHT be the practical limit of arterial lane-reduction in Indianapolis...as the study your blog partner cited clearly points out?
4. MAYBE there is a better bike-ped alternative in BR, on 61st St.?

Not to mention, I threw you the Broad Ripple light-rail thing in regard to the comments on densification. We definitely agree on that: rails in BR Ave. between College and Keystone.

I've presented clear data and alternatives for discussion, as well as my conclusions after looking at all of it. I'm not the one who's digging in my heels with dogma, ignoring facts, numbers, community-based plans and preferences. I have a good understanding (and an accurate mental map) of the area in question, based on years and years of observation and experience there.

And don't go off on the "50 years of bad transportation policy" tangent. We are where we are. We live where we live, in a city built on those 50 years of choices. We can't undo them without careful consideration for how the change will affect people and neighborhoods and systems.

You've really pissed off someone who supports (pretty loudly, sometimes) much of what you favor. How does that help you long-term? Does it help convince any skeptics when you brush off valid questions, concerns, and data with characterizations like reckless and uncompromising?

If you think I'm uncompromising, what are your chances with the anti-Indy non-urban crowd (suburban, exurban and Ruralpublicans) who control the state legislature? Or with the suburbanites, who want to run trains down through acres of suburban backyards instead of running them on streets past job, activity, and shopping drivers...places people actually want to go?

Some news from the IBJ about some financing plans being worked on that could possibly help move the "Cosmopolitan II" project forward:

http://www.ibj.com/flaherty-nears-deal-for-cosmopolitan-investment/PARAMS/article/30919

That could turn into a pretty awesome corner if this developed. IN AVE has amazing potential.

That could turn into a pretty awesome corner if this developed. IN AVE has amazing potential.

+1

Would be nice to see the parking lot here disappear

+1

Would be nice to see the parking lot here disappear

Idk, that might reduce the already short supply o fparkign in DT. haha. I do really like the trees that surround it. They look great in spring

Your arguement is purely car driven. All of your points and counterpoints deal with getting a car quickly form place to place at the cost of everything else.

Not so. In very direct and plain English, my points and counterpoints deal with keeping status quo for the 24,000 cars per day already on Broad Ripple Ave., while improving options for pedestrians and cyclists in the same area.

The basic principle: first, do no NEW harm. And that means the OLD harm you perceive is long done, so let the cars keep their space. Let neighborhood residents and crosstown commuters keep the convenience they bought into.

Then, find/build good space for pedestrians and cyclists. THAT is transportation equity. Treating the system like a zero-sum game merely pits groups against one another and is counterproductive. Taking something away from one group of users and giving it to another is not equity, nor progressive. Building a first-class bike-ped infrastructure to go alongside our first-class motor-vehicle infrastructure provides equity, and it is progress.

I have raised the point that a community-based planning workshop series within the last decade developed such a bike-ped option on 61st St., which no one at UI has acknowledged or sought to understand. It makes you all seem much more interested in imposing your principles and goals than in understanding what others want and will support.

The points I've raised also deal with whether the new configuration is imposing externalities on neighborhood residents: more cars cutting through their streets, more wait time as they go about their daily business. I stipulate that these are both harmful effects on the neighbors and neighborhood, and residents have chimed in to say that they're happening. You collectively shrug and say it'll work out. That seems callous and indifferent to neighborhood concerns.

Finally, if I were car-centered as you suggest, I'd be suggesting that Kessler and/or Broad Ripple should be widened to four lanes with a CLT across the whole neighborhood, based on the existing traffic counts. "Handle the car traffic (and to hell with pedestrians and cyclists)".

Alas, that's not my position and you continue to "mind-read" inaccurately.

In the 1990's redesign of 38th, I advocated with DPW for a road diet, narrowing pavement (and losing the right turn lane westbound at Michigan Rd.). It would have been enough to create a 10-12' wide separated "Maple Road Trail" on the north side of 38th. It would have been a policy statement. It would have connected the Monon and Canal trails. And it would have provided bike and pedestrian safety away from speeding traffic. Obviously, I lost that battle.

But something that looks a lot like it snakes through downtown Indy today. :)

it's not free choice, its years of bad policy being informed by lobbyists who wanted to make a profit off of making and selling cars and it still exists today. Pick up a paper and read about the latest surface transportation bill talks. Its still a majority of roads.

You talk about choice and I frankly, Id love the choice to ride my bike wherever I want free of having to get mowed down by a car but accoding to you, since we all live in the current built environment its just too damn bad to try and do something about it because we all chose this model.

We aren't going to unscrew what has taken decades to screw up but if we keep reinforcing it, we will get more of it.

Here's what I see as the crux of the bike-car problem: it will never be generally safe for 3200-lb cars going 25-35mph and 200-lb bicyclist-plus-bikes going maybe 10-20 to travel in the same space. Monument Circle, BR Village, Fountain Square...yes. Group biking, maybe, but I am mindful of the police officers who got creamed while on the statewide ride a couple of years back. Speed variation kills.

The car-bike mass difference is like the 50,000-lb semi and 3200-lb car...but they can safely travel the same roads because they can travel in the same speed range owing to similar power-to-weight ratios. The average car and average truck can keep pace with each other. The average biker can't keep up with a car running at moderate speed. Nor is s/he as visible.

The only prescriptive way to make ALL streets "safe" for bikes and cars together is to make cars travel at bike speed, and probably also to decorate bikes and bikers with safety reflectors and/or lights, plus bumpers and airbags.

And that is so far beyond acceptable in a political, social, and economic sense that it should be off the table. The discussion needs to get away from command-and-control space sharing and into creating equitable alternatives with new investment. As I wrote above: create a first-class bike-ped system to go alongside our first-class roads for motor vehicles.

At the risk of further pissing off UI bloggers: multi-use side paths and separated trails seem to be very functional in the places where they exist...which includes Indianapolis, Carmel, Fishers, Westfield. Indy has some low-traffic streets (especially in areas with alleys that could serve residents better) and railbeds that aren't appropriate for transit that might bear consideration for conversion.

I think, for instance, that a fair chunk of "Rebuild Indy" money should go to non-auto transportation: IndyGo/IndyConnect, plus building out our Greenways/Trails system and expanding it, plus establishing a fund for its maintenance. That's a game-changer.

I'll leave it to my grandchildren to figure out how they can re-configure and re-use an underutilized street system in 30 or 40 years.

But I draw the line here: NO pedestrian mall downtown on the Circle. :lol:

They've got all of the clothes set up on display now in Jos. A Bank Clothing on E. Washington Street. Not sure if its open yet - but it sure looks like it could be.

Also -- new Cultural Trail benches, trash bins and lighting are now up on E. Washington between Alabama and Delaware. I'm surprised how quickly the CT got finished up on the block of W. Washington between Illinois and Capitol. Its not quite done yet -- but, a month ago it was a disaster zone. Looks pretty decent now - and very close to being completed, as far as I can tell.

I noticed earlier today there was a big truck going around picking up orange traffic signs, cones, etc. I hope they are getting all of them up pretty soon. When those are finally out of the way -- I will start to believe that most all of this Cultural Trail and ReBuild Indy stuff is about done downtown.

Its a week and a half until the Big Ten Football Championship. I noticed a huge new sign on the south wall of the building that houses the Old Spaghetti Factory. Apparently Dr. Pepper is one of the major sponsors - because they were the prominent feature on the giant sign.

They've got all of the clothes set up on display now in Jos. A Bank Clothing on E. Washington Street. Not sure if its open yet - but it sure looks like it could be.

Also -- new Cultural Trail benches, trash bins and lighting are now up on E. Washington between Alabama and Delaware. I'm surprised how quickly the CT got finished up on the block of W. Washington between Illinois and Capitol. Its not quite done yet -- but, a month ago it was a disaster zone. Looks pretty decent now - and very close to being completed, as far as I can tell.

I noticed earlier today there was a big truck going around picking up orange traffic signs, cones, etc. I hope they are getting all of them up pretty soon. When those are finally out of the way -- I will start to believe that most all of this Cultural Trail and ReBuild Indy stuff is about done downtown.

Its a week and a half until the Big Ten Football Championship. I noticed a huge new sign on the south wall of the building that houses the Old Spaghetti Factory. Apparently Dr. Pepper is one of the major sponsors - because they were the prominent feature on the giant sign.

Can't wait to enjoy the CT. A true statement at a car-free lifestyle....oh wait, the Conrad......dang it! Sure hope there is a path when I stroll by haha.

Not so. In very direct and plain English, my points and counterpoints deal with keeping status quo for the 24,000 cars per day already on Broad Ripple Ave., while improving options for pedestrians and cyclists in the same area.

The basic principle: first, do no NEW harm. And that means the OLD harm you perceive is long done, so let the cars keep their space. Let neighborhood residents and crosstown commuters keep the convenience they bought into.

Then, find/build good space for pedestrians and cyclists. THAT is transportation equity. Treating the system like a zero-sum game merely pits groups against one another and is counterproductive. Taking something away from one group of users and giving it to another is not equity, nor progressive. Building a first-class bike-ped infrastructure to go alongside our first-class motor-vehicle infrastructure provides equity, and it is progress.

I have raised the point that a community-based planning workshop series within the last decade developed such a bike-ped option on 61st St., which no one at UI has acknowledged or sought to understand. It makes you all seem much more interested in imposing your principles and goals than in understanding what others want and will support.

The points I've raised also deal with whether the new configuration is imposing externalities on neighborhood residents: more cars cutting through their streets, more wait time as they go about their daily business. I stipulate that these are both harmful effects on the neighbors and neighborhood, and residents have chimed in to say that they're happening. You collectively shrug and say it'll work out. That seems callous and indifferent to neighborhood concerns.

Finally, if I were car-centered as you suggest, I'd be suggesting that Kessler and/or Broad Ripple should be widened to four lanes with a CLT across the whole neighborhood, based on the existing traffic counts. "Handle the car traffic (and to hell with pedestrians and cyclists)".

Alas, that's not my position and you continue to "mind-read" inaccurately.

In the 1990's redesign of 38th, I advocated with DPW for a road diet, narrowing pavement (and losing the right turn lane westbound at Michigan Rd.). It would have been enough to create a 10-12' wide separated "Maple Road Trail" on the north side of 38th. It would have been a policy statement. It would have connected the Monon and Canal trails. And it would have provided bike and pedestrian safety away from speeding traffic. Obviously, I lost that battle.

But something that looks a lot like it snakes through downtown Indy today. :)

Segregation = equity? Not sure how that works out....but in the 50's and 60's it failed.

Segregation = equity? Not sure how that works out....but in the 50's and 60's it failed.

Honestly, don't you think it is in rather poor taste to compare racial discrimination and Jim Crows laws to the suggestion that bike and automobile lanes be separated for safety concerns?

I am sure you don't intend to, but you come across as a smart-ass and a jerk with a limited understanding of history, instead of an intelligent individual who is trying to present a reasonable argument.

I am sure none of us want the discussion board to descend into this sort of sniping.

Time to take a step back, breath, and reengage with an open mind.

^^ Not in the best of taste, likely. I agree with the sentiment though. The retail infrastructure surrounds car based modes. The ped and bike paths should integrate with the roads to allow people, not just cars to get to the businesses. I personally don't want to ride my bike on a back alley trail. I want to see what is going on in the community, get to know the merchants I ride by, and I want to discover new things on my commute, not just new things around my final destination. Integrating encourages a healthy engaged community and is worth the five minute drive time sacrifice for the people who haven't broken their old habits of flying through to Broad Ripple.

Congestion will get better when people learn that the road has changed in nature.

Some local restaurant news --- a few new openings and a few changes to previously existing restaurants. The preview in the article below about "The End" in Fountain Square seems interesting and pretty good. Sounds like a mix of some basic standards with some new, slightly different food options -- all brought together with some excellent local brew choices.

http://www.ibj.com/property-lines/2011/11/21/new-restaurants-the-end-chef-josephs-cafe-audrey-flying-cupcake-la-margarita/PARAMS/post/30904

Segregation = equity? Not sure how that works out....but in the 50's and 60's it failed.
:ohno:

Cars = bikes = people? Exactly how does that work? :nuts:

In this case mode separation (not segregation) is the equation for safety, when travel speed and mass are grossly unequal among travelers. It's why there are crossing gates at RR tracks, and crossing guards at schools. It's why bikes aren't supposed to be on sidewalks, and why people aren't supposed to walk in the street.

It's about physics. Last I checked, f=ma. A ton and a half at 30mph packs a hell of a punch. It'll definitely ruin your day if you're both trying to occupy a painted bike lane at the same time.

But you already knew this, and so did all the other readers.

^^ Not in the best of taste, likely. I agree with the sentiment though. The retail infrastructure surrounds car based modes. The ped and bike paths should integrate with the roads to allow people, not just cars to get to the businesses. I personally don't want to ride my bike on a back alley trail. I want to see what is going on in the community, get to know the merchants I ride by, and I want to discover new things on my commute, not just new things around my final destination. Integrating encourages a healthy engaged community and is worth the five minute drive time sacrifice for the people who haven't broken their old habits of flying through to Broad Ripple.

Congestion will get better when people learn that the road has changed in nature.

Eddie, I am not taking any sides in this particular discussion, but you have either misunderstood or unconsciously mischaracterized CDC's position.

CDC never stated he is opposed to bikes being integrated into the road grid. In fact, he recounted how he strongly advocated for the reduction in car lane width on 38th Street to accomodate bike lanes. 38th Street is one of the most important east-west arteries in the city. With regard to Broad Ripple, his position is that Broad Ripple Avenue may not have been the most appropriate road to narrow to accomodate bike lanes. His support for an alternative bikeway on 61st Street, a regular neighborhood street a couple blocks south of the main drag, is hardly an argument for bikes to be relegated to "back alley trails."

Certainly, reasonable minds can disagree about the best approach to take with bike lanes, but it seems that a good number (though definitely not all) of the responses to CDC's comments have been based on emotion, not reason. I would simply echo what CDC said, if certain people cannot learn how to calmly argue their position with someone like CDC, a committed urban dweller, who is generally supportive of mass transit and alternative transportation, then lots of luck to them with persuading the typical Indianapolis area resident to agree with their point of view.

... In the 1990's redesign of 38th, I advocated with DPW for a road diet, narrowing pavement (and losing the right turn lane westbound at Michigan Rd.). It would have been enough to create a 10-12' wide separated "Maple Road Trail" on the north side of 38th. It would have been a policy statement. It would have connected the Monon and Canal trails. And it would have provided bike and pedestrian safety away from speeding traffic. Obviously, I lost that battle. ....
After two-three years of little or no maintenance of the landscape improvements on 38th St. from Monon to Michigan Rd., most of the beds are down to a few plants with likely broken irrigation systems. Sad that the City would spend 100s of 1,000s without a maintenance plan and that the neighbord organizations that pushed for the improvements did not, maybe, insist on maintenance. At least IDI has kept many of the beds downtown pretty well maintained and the C T has a plan to do the same.

Also, as to possible "bike boulevards," the 61st St. route from Monon to a block or two west of Glendale would have been great. Others: New Jersey from the Interstate north to 25th St. The alley east of Delaware from Fall Creek to 16th.

And, for those willing to break the car-culture mold:

http://daily.sightline.org/2010/06/22/cargo-bikes/

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/studdedtires.asp

Two or three people were riding last winter with studs. And maybe a few more have cargo bikes, trailers.

[QUOTE=cdc guy;85938299]Here's what I see as the crux of the bike-car problem: it will never be generally safe for 3200-lb cars going 25-35mph and 200-lb bicyclist-plus-bikes going maybe 10-20 to travel in the same space. Monument Circle, BR Village, Fountain Square...yes. Group biking, maybe, but I am mindful of the police officers who got creamed while on the statewide ride a couple of years back. Speed variation kills.[/CODE]

Agreed. This is why I've long advocated for a two-way separated bike trail/track (like just got built on Shelby) for New York Street in place of the on-street painted lanes. I don't think it's necessarily the 25-35MPH traffic, especially the 25-30MPH traffic that worries me as a bicyclist, but the 35-40+ traffic, which is common on NY and Mich and greatly increases the potential severity of any collisions, that keeps me from riding these lanes. Where we'll disagree is that I'd support converting these streets to two-way or otherwise calming traffic to reduce the 90th percentile vehicle speed to below 30 MPH.

I've really enjoyed reading all the back and forth and I really want to get up to BR Ave during afternoon rush hour just to observe and make a judgment. Not having a lot of experience with the typical pre- and post-bike lane conditions has kept me from chiming in until now. I will say that I think that many of the BR bike lane advocates should consider the 61st Street alternative that CDC Guy has been mentioning (I'm not familiar with it myself). On the other hand, if the inconvenience to drivers is actually fairly minimal, then I wouldn't see a reason to object to the BR Ave bike lanes. As someone who lives in a near-downtown n'hood, but, much like CDC guy, uses a car regularly, I'm willing and desirous of accepting longer driving times in exchange for projects that slow urban, surface street, vehicle traffic, because I believe that it will make these neighborhoods more attractive.

The only prescriptive way to make ALL streets "safe" for bikes and cars together is to make cars travel at bike speed, and probably also to decorate bikes and bikers with safety reflectors and/or lights, plus bumpers and airbags.

And that is so far beyond acceptable in a political, social, and economic sense that it should be off the table...

I don't think this is far beyond acceptable, not necessarily bringing cars and bikers to the same speed, but bringing vehicle speeds down from 40MPH to 25MPH, with on-street bikers going 10-20MPH. I think that would provide a safe, comfortable, and inviting environment for bikers, and with well coordinated signal timing (currently lacking in many places), it would have fairly limited impact on vehicle travel times through the old city limits compared with the lost time at the red lights which are not well synchronized.

I'm willing to accept driving time from downtown to Irvington going from 8 minutes to 12 minutes and from downtown to Broad Ripple going from 15 minutes to 20 minutes in exchange for redesigning the city and its neighborhoods to be places where I want to spend time outside of my car.

I always feel strange when I turn my car off, because I'm the only one, and like I might get in trouble for not being ready to go quickly enough when the train passes.

nothing wrong with feeling strange when you're doing the right thing...

Two or three people were riding last winter with studs. And maybe a few more have cargo bikes, trailers.

Winter riders in general have increased drastically in the past 5 years..

Winter riders in general have increased drastically in the past 5 years..

True dat. And commuter cycling has noticeably grown as well. Because of where I live, work, etc, my little world revolves primarily around Fountain Square, Mass Ave, and the Old Northside. In my fishbowl I see more and more bike commuters every year and it's great!

BOOM: The Muse (http://milhausdevelopment.com/blogs/blog/2011/11/22/the-muse#.TszqWRluVH4.twitter)

Some concerns: It could use more windows at the points. Also, the interior green space may be an unused and windswept dead space if not done correctly. Otherwise, it looks appropriate.

Honestly, don't you think it is in rather poor taste to compare racial discrimination and Jim Crows laws to the suggestion that bike and automobile lanes be separated for safety concerns?

I am sure you don't intend to, but you come across as a smart-ass and a jerk with a limited understanding of history, instead of an intelligent individual who is trying to present a reasonable argument.

I am sure none of us want the discussion board to descend into this sort of sniping.

Time to take a step back, breath, and reengage with an open mind.

It isn't in poor taste to reference history as bad decision making for the present and future. CDC's theory is seperate, but equal. The problem is that the road system is obviously a system of collectors and arterials. In many places because of water features, RR's, highways whatever, there are very limited crossing points. It doesn't seem equal to provide bike infrastructure on a street that won't get you to where you need to go. If I live on the NW side of town and need to get DT, I am not going to cross over to the Monon to ride DT, I would take the road that gets me DT. This is why Lafeyette Rd now has bike lanes. If the plan was to use 61st, riders could only go from Central to a neighborhood "dead end" near Keystone. They would also have to contend with several stop signs. BR AVE and 62nd will connect you to the canal towpath/green way, bike lanes on Illinois and Capitol, the Monon, Glendale Mall, Allisonville Rd Bike Lanes, and after a small jog you will be connected to the Fall Creek Trail which leads to Lawrence and the Fort redevelopment........which also has bike lanes. This project goes beyond the village. It impacts a city wide bike infrastructure plan and connects people with places they want and need to go. The complaints about this range from a few minutes of added travel time to a meaningless piece of infrastructure. To a cyclist, the benefits include connectivity, safety, opportunity and an alternative lifestyle to the car. CDC claims seperate, but equal. I claim seperate and second class.

As far as the Broad Ripple bike lane debate goes, I have contacted BRVA Preisident Tom Healy, who will write a guest blog post on our site. We hope this will present some information about how the bike lanes came in to existence.

I know that I personally had gotten too emotional over it. That's not really my style. Onward with logic.

BOOM: The Muse (http://milhausdevelopment.com/blogs/blog/2011/11/22/the-muse#.TszqWRluVH4.twitter)

Some concerns: It could use more windows at the points. Also, the interior green space may be an unused and windswept dead space if not done correctly. Otherwise, it looks appropriate.

Is the parking garage shown on the first level fronting New Jersey? If so, that is a lot of dead space between the facade of the Murat and this parking garage.

Is the parking garage shown on the first level fronting New Jersey? If so, that is a lot of dead space between the facade of the Murat and this parking garage.

One of the slides on the site shows the parking situated there. While you make a good point, I would call that area of the property the least "valuable" if you will. But on the other hand, if that corner were designed to be a major access point, it would be diagonal across from Cultural Trail and perhaps even stir some interest in the parking lot across the street. Wouldnt it be nice to see that disappear too?

One of the slides on the site shows the parking situated there. While you make a good point, I would call that area of the property the least "valuable" if you will. But on the other hand, if that corner were designed to be a major access point, it would be diagonal across from Cultural Trail and perhaps even stir some interest in the parking lot across the street. Wouldnt it be nice to see that disappear too?

always........

Interesting tidbit on transit from an unlikely source today: Indiana Barrister's take (http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2011/11/the_first_stop_for_mass_transit.html).

Interesting tidbit on transit from an unlikely source today: Indiana Barrister's take (http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2011/11/the_first_stop_for_mass_transit.html).

Ah the classic "transit doesn't pay for itself" arguement. If only they knew the true costs of SOV road based infrastructure.

Interesting tidbit on transit from an unlikely source today: Indiana Barrister's take (http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2011/11/the_first_stop_for_mass_transit.html).

Inspiring talk from a somewhat unlikely source. I know he hasn't been cold to mass transit, but I generally find his point of view different than the collective urbanists opinion.

Thanks for the link!

It doesn't seem equal to provide bike infrastructure on a street that won't get you to where you need to go.

I agree.

61st Street connects to the Monon a block south of Broad Ripple Village, in the midst of a dense (for Indy) residential concentration. It ends into the Canal Trail at Westfield (if the bikeway were to extend that far west, which was not part of the proposal).

61st extended east intersects Keystone at the main signaled entrance to Glendale and runs through the commercial collection between Keystone and Hillside. It also intersects EVERY low-volume and safe neighborhood street that leads back to BR Ave. and Kessler.

In short...it goes to and connects the same places as Broad Ripple Ave. It also connects the very same destinations to the neighborhood people most likely to be making all those short trips by bike (where Indy'd started off before devolving in this latest post to the wholly-different subject of crosstown commuting via bike).

To address the stop issue: We haven't discussed how such a route would be configured. Personally, I would give design preference to the bikeway, making cars stop and yield at all the cross streets. This would add the benefit of slowing traffic where people live.

Cars would have to be accommodated, since a few houses and a lot of garages face 61st. This might be done in a manner similar to the CT on Walnut, with a center trail. All in all, having preference might make this both a safer and faster (and one would assume, preferred) route compared to the painted lane that stops at three traffic signals between the Monon and Keystone.

On the unrelated, but raised by Indy'd, subject of the (mostly hypothetical) crosstown bike commuters who might want the whole arterial infrastructure redesigned to suit them...that's where I draw the line. Realistically, this is a case of the 1% demanding that everyone else pay for their preference. The cost of accommodating this 1% by providing "equal" facilities everywhere is far higher than the 99% will ever consent to spend. Even if this number gets to 5% or 10%, wanting to ride to work is a choice, not a disability that entitles one to public investment as is the case with curb-cut ramps. The disabled have no choice of mobility; compassion and inclusion dictate the appropriate response to their need.

I would urge such commuters to advocate for an improved transit system that they can integrate into a multimodal commute, part-bike and part-bus or train.

Now, I also offer strong support for a well-connected bikeway system. It is shameful that the Fall Creek Trail south of 34th to IUPUI has been shovel-ready and unbuilt for more than a decade. Likewise the canal towpath south of 30th into the core of downtown, and the B&O Trail from the west side, and the White River Trail from 38th south to Pleasant Run.

These potential "bike interstates" that connect multiple neighborhoods, activity centers, and employment centers represent a middle ground that I think is acceptable to lots of people and realistically fund-able. There are any number of low-use streets that can function as the safe connectors and distributors for cyclists without significant modification.

I will also go far out on a limb: with Marion County virtually built out inside 465, I suggest a firm policy of not widening another street inside 465, instead maintaining and improving (by addition of bike-ped infrastructure) the existing system.

I'd like to think that I am neither a crank nor a reactionary. I'd self-describe as "radical moderate", one seeking reality-based common ground with advocates for certain progressive actions. A man in the middle. (Take a look at the commentary on the Indiana Barrister link above. That's your enemy, not me.)

I agree.

61st Street connects to the Monon a block south of Broad Ripple Village, in the midst of a dense (for Indy) residential concentration. It ends into the Canal Trail at Westfield (if the bikeway were to extend that far west, which was not part of the proposal).

61st extended east intersects Keystone at the main signaled entrance to Glendale and runs through the commercial collection between Keystone and Hillside. It also intersects EVERY low-volume and safe neighborhood street that leads back to BR Ave. and Kessler.

In short...it goes to and connects the same places as Broad Ripple Ave. It also connects the very same destinations to the neighborhood people most likely to be making all those short trips by bike (where Indy'd started off before devolving in this latest post to the wholly-different subject of crosstown commuting via bike).

To address the stop issue: We haven't discussed how such a route would be configured. Personally, I would give design preference to the bikeway, making cars stop and yield at all the cross streets. This would add the benefit of slowing traffic where people live.

Cars would have to be accommodated, since a few houses and a lot of garages face 61st. This might be done in a manner similar to the CT on Walnut, with a center trail. All in all, having preference might make this both a safer and faster (and one would assume, preferred) route compared to the painted lane that stops at three traffic signals between the Monon and Keystone.

On the unrelated, but raised by Indy'd, subject of the (mostly hypothetical) crosstown bike commuters who might want the whole arterial infrastructure redesigned to suit them...that's where I draw the line. Realistically, this is a case of the 1% demanding that everyone else pay for their preference. The cost of accommodating this 1% by providing "equal" facilities everywhere is far higher than the 99% will ever consent to spend. Even if this number gets to 5% or 10%, wanting to ride to work is a choice, not a disability that entitles one to public investment as is the case with curb-cut ramps. The disabled have no choice of mobility; compassion and inclusion dictate the appropriate response to their need.

I would urge such commuters to advocate for an improved transit system that they can integrate into a multimodal commute, part-bike and part-bus or train.

Now, I also offer strong support for a well-connected bikeway system. It is shameful that the Fall Creek Trail south of 34th to IUPUI has been shovel-ready and unbuilt for more than a decade. Likewise the canal towpath south of 30th into the core of downtown, and the B&O Trail from the west side, and the White River Trail from 38th south to Pleasant Run.

These potential "bike interstates" that connect multiple neighborhoods, activity centers, and employment centers represent a middle ground that I think is acceptable to lots of people and realistically fund-able. There are any number of low-use streets that can function as the safe connectors and distributors for cyclists without significant modification.

I will also go far out on a limb: with Marion County virtually built out inside 465, I suggest a firm policy of not widening another street inside 465, instead maintaining and improving (by addition of bike-ped infrastructure) the existing system.

I'd like to think that I am neither a crank nor a reactionary. I'd self-describe as "radical moderate", one seeking reality-based common ground with advocates for certain progressive actions. A man in the middle. (Take a look at the commentary on the Indiana Barrister link above. That's your enemy, not me.)

I will simply respond that driving is a choice as well and citing numbers for existing mode share as you see it should not be the basis for future design.

I will simply respond that driving is a choice as well and citing numbers for existing mode share as you see it should not be the basis for future design.

So let me get this straight: you don't want to have a civilized debate based on real numbers and real choices by real people. You would rather imagine a bike wonderland that is politically, economically, and socially impossible in Indianapolis and criticize anything that falls short? All or nothing?

You won't discuss the merits of what many see as a reasonable system of bike and bike-ped infrastructure, one that has been vetted and approved through community-based planning? (That's where the Greenways and Bike-Ped plans came from.)

I won't play along. I'll continue to look for an incrementally progressive path that has a chance of being sold to a skeptical and fiscally conservative public, probably as a tool for continued economic growth and talent attraction to our growing industry clusters.

Let's start with questions for the whole community of bike advocates, not just Indy'd:

What's the highest current work-commute mode share for bicycle in any temperate US city or metro? (By "temperate" I mean a city where it rains more than 30 inches a year, experiences some freezing temperatures, and snows at least several times. This should allow places like Seattle and Portland to play.)

Best bike-trip share for any city of comparable size and population to Indy, regardless of climate?

Which of these would make an appropriate benchmark?

What are the transit and auto shares in those cities?

Is there any city with a higher bike share than transit share? Why?

I will simply respond that driving is a choice as well and citing numbers for existing mode share as you see it should not be the basis for future design.

What you are not getting is that for the vast majority of people who live in Indianapolis, driving is essentially a requirement. I say that as someone who commutes by bike or by IndyGo as often as possible and runs errands by foot or by bike pretty often. I wish more people who could make the choice, but I also recognize that I'm in an unusual circumstance: a) I live on one of the few bus lines with 15 minute rush hour headways; b) my office is close to a bus line, and I live close enough to downtown that taking the bus doesn't add a prohibitive amount of time to my commute; c) while this one is no longer essential because of the bike hub, I have shower facilities and a place to store a bike in my building; d) I am essentially self-employed, and I am responsible for paying my own parking fees, so all of my commute costs come directly out of my pocket (i.e., I'm not "wasting" a parking pass when I pay IndyGo) and e) my son's preschool is two blocks from our house, as is the main Irvington business district. For lots of people, this simply isn't the case. Take, for instance, an acquaintance of mine who lived on the east coast for several years. While on the east coast, she never, ever drove to work. She either walked or used transit every single day. When she took a job in Indy and located in Broad Ripple, she determined that her commute to a near downtown employer would take over an hour.

Everyone who is enough of an urbanist to post here would love to see an Indy with a great transit system, better street design, a place where cars are a necessity for many fewer people. Simply making streets tougher to navigate for the sake of choking traffic isn't going to cause a great transit system to spontaneously materialize.

I'm agnostic on the BR Ave bike lanes. I haven't seen them and haven't lived up there for the better part of a decade. I might well disagree with CDC on this specific point. I have no idea. But I don't think that there is a cart-before-the-horse character to some of the posts on this issue. It's true that many dense, transit oriented cities are difficult and time consuming to navigate by car. It does not follow that making Indy a difficult city to drive in will magically turn it into a dense, transit-oriented city.

To a cyclist, the benefits include connectivity, safety, opportunity and an alternative lifestyle to the car. CDC claims seperate, but equal. I claim seperate and second class.

Indy, I do not want to put too fine of a point on it, but I will just state this quite clearly for you: There is NOTHING comparable between an entire race of people suffering subjugation and discrimination based on the notion that they are subhuman because of the color of their skin, and someone suggesting that bicyclists would benefit from traveling in separated bike lanes for their own safety. Even many BIKE ADVOCATES prefer and REQUEST completely separated bike lanes when possible so as to prevent encroachment by cars and protect cyclists from getting struck by a vehicle.

Here are some examples of dedicated bikes lanes (some are shared with mopeds) in Amsterdam, one of the most bike friendly cities in the world, and a place where bicyclists are certainly "first class citizens":

http://the-riotact.com/how-dedicated-bike-lanes-work-in-amsterdam/52455

Amsterdam has hundreds of miles of completely separate bike paths.


You may personally feel that being given your own separate bike lanes make you a "second class citizen," but even if one were to agree for the sake of argument that separate bike lanes are a form of discrimination (even though many bicyclists seem to believe they are a benefit), it is simply nothing compared to over 500 years of racial discrimination and oppression.

I support increased bike access. I support pedestrian trials. I support mass transit. I support increased residential density. But, I cannot support crazy talk. Going to ideological extremes causes you to lose support you would otherwise have to effect community change.

^^ Well put, John and kangaroo.

It's true that many dense, transit oriented cities are difficult and time consuming to navigate by car. It does not follow that making Indy a difficult city to drive in will magically turn it into a dense, transit-oriented city.

Word.

Using bicycle lanes as a tool to make Indy a difficult city to drive in will probably just make more po'd drivers, likely to curse at cyclists or worse.

Funny story for those of us in Indy:

NJ War Monument Christmast Lights Draw Reprisals (http://news.yahoo.com/nj-war-monuments-christmas-lights-draw-reprisals-142858068.html)

Funny story for those of us in Indy:

NJ War Monument Christmast Lights Draw Reprisals (http://news.yahoo.com/nj-war-monuments-christmas-lights-draw-reprisals-142858068.html)

I put a rather maudlin comment on their message board. Those people are pissed off.. rattling on about disrespecting the dead... likening it to using a cemetary as a zombified haunted house on Halloween... it's hilarious! Would those Civil War dead be offended by Christmas Carols? geez... lighten up people...

I put a rather maudlin comment on their message board. Those people are pissed off.. rattling on about disrespecting the dead... likening it to using a cemetary as a zombified haunted house on Halloween... it's hilarious! Would those Civil War dead be offended by Christmas Carols? geez... lighten up people...

I guess we're just callous, surrounded as we are by all our war memorials, where we have fun and festivals. (Along with the occasional kook driving a Jeep up the steps.)

Could you imagine if we treated Legion Mall or the Circle like cemeteries? People think they're dead now...

So let me get this straight: you don't want to have a civilized debate based on real numbers and real choices by real people. You would rather imagine a bike wonderland that is politically, economically, and socially impossible in Indianapolis and criticize anything that falls short? All or nothing?

You won't discuss the merits of what many see as a reasonable system of bike and bike-ped infrastructure, one that has been vetted and approved through community-based planning? (That's where the Greenways and Bike-Ped plans came from.)

I won't play along. I'll continue to look for an incrementally progressive path that has a chance of being sold to a skeptical and fiscally conservative public, probably as a tool for continued economic growth and talent attraction to our growing industry clusters.

Let's start with questions for the whole community of bike advocates, not just Indy'd:

What's the highest current work-commute mode share for bicycle in any temperate US city or metro? (By "temperate" I mean a city where it rains more than 30 inches a year, experiences some freezing temperatures, and snows at least several times. This should allow places like Seattle and Portland to play.)

Best bike-trip share for any city of comparable size and population to Indy, regardless of climate?

Which of these would make an appropriate benchmark?

What are the transit and auto shares in those cities?

Is there any city with a higher bike share than transit share? Why?

I believe Minneapolis has had a strong surge of cycling commuters. Perhaps they qualify for low temperatures and rain. I think there approximate share for bikes is 5%. Maybe that is conservative, but when the national share is less than 1%, I'd call it a small victory.

Kangaroo, you have taken it too far. There are certainly parallels between the two situations. Obvioudly the repression and hate for cyclists doesn't even rank in a surrounding category that racial segragation does, but dividing out a segment of the population and moving them aside has similarities. Much of the commercial and service based jobs and industry have located along busy roads as it was the only funded transportation for this city. I would love dedicated bike paths, but not if they don't go where I need to go. It is certainly not the end of the world to have a safer, slower BR AVE. This design works well for this area. It is a huge attraction and destination area, not an expressway. There will be an adjustment, but people will live. It is much safer for a pedestrian to cross 2 lanes of vehicle traffic than 4 and this area is filled with pedestrians.

JohnM, if you chose to live close to where you work, shop, play then you benefit through connectivity and proximity. It becomes very simple to live without a car as you have stated. It sounds like this friend of yours chose the wrong location or does not sacrafice too much with transportation. It is fine to live far from where you need to go, but I refuse to sacrafice the safety of people and the mobility of all residents to aid in your decision. Learn to just take a breath and slow down. Indy has some great people and great places....enjoy it.

I believe Minneapolis has had a strong surge of cycling commuters. Perhaps they qualify for low temperatures and rain. I think there approximate share for bikes is 5%. Maybe that is conservative, but when the national share is less than 1%, I'd call it a small victory.

Kangaroo, you have taken it too far. There are certainly parallels between the two situations. Obvioudly the repression and hate for cyclists doesn't even rank in a surrounding category that racial segragation does, but dividing out a segment of the population and moving them aside has similarities. Much of the commercial and service based jobs and industry have located along busy roads as it was the only funded transportation for this city. I would love dedicated bike paths, but not if they don't go where I need to go. It is certainly not the end of the world to have a safer, slower BR AVE. This design works well for this area. It is a huge attraction and destination area, not an expressway. There will be an adjustment, but people will live. It is much safer for a pedestrian to cross 2 lanes of vehicle traffic than 4 and this area is filled with pedestrians.

JohnM, if you chose to live close to where you work, shop, play then you benefit through connectivity and proximity. It becomes very simple to live without a car as you have stated. It sounds like this friend of yours chose the wrong location or does not sacrafice too much with transportation. It is fine to live far from where you need to go, but I refuse to sacrafice the safety of people and the mobility of all residents to aid in your decision. Learn to just take a breath and slow down. Indy has some great people and great places....enjoy it.

A lot of the commercial/industrial bones of this city were solidified long before the car was the dominant/funded mode. If you don't believe me, Google "Street and Bicycle Map of Indianapolis 1899". It specifically notes the best routes for cyclists: our paved roads and streets. Consider that the only modes still in use from those days are bike and ped, so it's far, far off the mark to create this alternate history asserting no investment for bike-ped travel. Consider that most of us support bringing back street rail.

That most 20th-century transportation investment has followed the dominance of the personal automobile is not a fraud or conspiracy perpetrated by an Illuminati cartel of Big Three, Big Oil, and other corporate interests on brainwashed masses. It is the result of a complex mix of many economic and socal factors, like all seismic historic shifts. It probably seemed like a good idea in an era of cheap and abundant fossil fuels. No one then could have foreseen the endgame despite the few prescient books like "Silent Spring".

As John points out, options and tradeoffs are available. I have also pointed out that those who want to organize their own lives around their own choice to eschew the auto can do so, even in Indianapolis (ESPECIALLY in the limits of 1899 Indianapolis, which includes the Irvington area).

However, commited cyclists don't (in my view) have any right to expect that areas of the metro developed after the streetcar era ended will support their lifestyle choices better than the urban core did/does. Nor have they any right to expect that the overwhelming majority of area residents will support an anti-car crusade and rearrange everything to suit a cycling-based lifestyle. In my view the cyclists should be refusing to patronize merchants and employers whose location "forces" them into unsafe rides. Colonize the most bike-friendly places and support bike-friendly businesses. Create positive force.

I tend to support those who invest in a neighborhood for its built form and social norms and people. I tend to support them also when outsiders impose changes and "improvements" that externalize real costs onto them and reduce the value of their monetary and social investment. In this specific case, there was a way to invest in gains for bike-ped infrastructure that would have also conferred benefit on residents instead of costs (delays, fumes, and cut-through traffic avoiding congestion). Win-win instead of win-lose.

Given the day, I am thankful for the right to debate this and other issues. I am especially thankful that my sons and many of their friends have chosen to help insure that freedom for all of us by serving in the armed forces; some of them are far from home and celebrate this holiday with their service families. I am also thankful that they are home with me today, and that we can drive to and from Thanksgiving dinner on a first-class road system.

BOOM: The Muse (http://milhausdevelopment.com/blogs/blog/2011/11/22/the-muse#.TszqWRluVH4.twitter)

Some concerns: It could use more windows at the points. Also, the interior green space may be an unused and windswept dead space if not done correctly. Otherwise, it looks appropriate.

I wish it was being built to the corner - Mass Ave and it's angles need more buildings that engage the intersections!

I do like that you can see the proposal for the Barton Space across the street in some of the renders

Can't wait to enjoy the CT. A true statement at a car-free lifestyle....oh wait, the Conrad......dang it! Sure hope there is a path when I stroll by haha.
The signs directing bike riders to dismount and walk their bikes on the sidewalk are now up east and west of the Conrad. Also, be careful riding on the Conrad trail\parking area coming from the west: easy to run head on into a car or SUV pulling into the trail\parking area. Have not seen any signs warning Conrad cars\SUVs of bikes.

The signs directing bike riders to dismount and walk their bikes on the sidewalk are now up east and west of the Conrad. Also, be careful riding on the Conrad trail\parking area coming from the west: easy to run head on into a car or SUV pulling into the trail\parking area. Have not seen any signs warning Conrad cars\SUVs of bikes.

I rode by there yesterday. It pissed me off. It is now my mission to ride by there everyday eventhough it isn't on my way to or from work. The cars were also parked perpendicular on the trail......

^^ Well put, John and kangaroo.



Word.

Using bicycle lanes as a tool to make Indy a difficult city to drive in will probably just make more po'd drivers, likely to curse at cyclists or worse.

CDC, do you agree that Indy's streets generally accommodate the automobile to the detriment of most other uses? Do you share the view that our streets should not only accommodate the automobile but also be beautiful, enrich our neighborhoods, provide recreational opportunities and allow for alternate modes of transportation? If so, don't you think we need to compromise? We are not talking about forcing anyone out of their vehicles or making it difficult to drive. We are simply talking about a balanced transportation system that is respectful of all users. I for one would be happy to add a few minutes to my commute in return for a more livable neighborhood and for more safety when I bike or walk.

I love the fact that our system is not a direct but a representative democracy. The hope is that we elect representatives who not only look out for the narrow interests of the majority but also the weak among us, minority groups and our common interests in general. My point is that majority shouldn't always rule in our society. The fact that a majority of us drive isn't reason to only cater to drivers. In the end, our society is enriched by our shared sacrifice. We discover that we are all better off when we make sacrifices for each other.

I think the Americans with Disabilities Act is a good example of this. Most of us are not disabled, yet we have come to the understanding as a society there is value in providing greater access to this minority group. Complying with this act has been costly and has required a certain amount of sacrifice for the majority of Americans. Even so, I think we are a better, more generous nation because of that shared sacrifice.

I hope Mayor Ballard and other officials will have to foresight to continue and accelerate efforts to provide a balanced transportation system in Indianapolis. I believe our shared sacrifice of slightly slower commutes, or occasional congestion will be paid back in spades.

CDC, do you agree that Indy's streets generally accommodate the automobile to the detriment of most other uses? Do you share the view that our streets should not only accommodate the automobile but also be beautiful, enrich our neighborhoods, provide recreational opportunities and allow for alternate modes of transportation? If so, don't you think we need to compromise? We are not talking about forcing anyone out of their vehicles or making it difficult to drive. We are simply talking about a balanced transportation system that is respectful of all users. I for one would be happy to add a few minutes to my commute in return for a more livable neighborhood and for more safety when I bike or walk.

Some folks here have been quite open about using traffic-choking (as opposed to calming) to force people out of cars and my extensive arguments have been aimed at them.

I agree that a few streets in Indy are not bike-friendly and not "nice" walks but still are plenty accommodating of pedestrians. I think we can all list many of them; I'd offer North Meridian from I-65 to Fall Creek. (Frankly, the debates on this topic often focus on the flashpoints, the high-traffic arterials. We go on endlessly about BR Ave and ignore 61st and 60th, quiet parallel neighborhood streets most times other than BR party nights.)

The vast majority of the streets most of us live on I wouldn't put in that category. In the case at hand, how many people live right on BR Ave, vs the dozen or so streets that run between it and Kessler?

[Related tangent: not too many complaints are written about College. It's relatively calm, transit and ped friendly with wide tree lawns and curb parking. And there is a separated bike trail running parallel.]

All in all, I find "the old city" (pre-auto-dominated Indy, areas developed up to about 1940) very walkable. Even a few post WW2 areas, like the neighborhoods east of the Monon and north of 46th.

I can safely walk on a "shared street" in my neighborhood, one without curbs or sidewalks. I had no reservations about wheeling my infant grandson's stroller down the street to the park, and today we walk it together. My neighbors let their bigger kids ride bikes there. These streets are more representative of "old Indy" than the arterial connectors. And because of the grid, there is almost always a way to avoid the arterials for pedestrians. This leaves the bike commuters, who should not face the choice of having to stop every block or two on side streets or risk their lives on busy arterials.

I part company on significantly increasing commute times within Center Township. Already it takes me the same amount of time to drive from home to office as it does to drive from office to 71st and Binford outbound at rush hour. Convenience (short drive times and lack of traffic congestion) is one of the benefits that I, and I suspect others, trade off against the tangible and intangible costs of living in neighborhoods with worse public schools, higher crime and insurance rates, older housing stock, and blight.

So how best to accommodate commuting by car, transit, and bike? Good 4-lane arterial streets for buses and cars, and a good separated network of bike arteries, IMO.

This is only the transportation system argument, and you raised the City Beautiful argument too. I do think our transportation corridors should be beautiful and lined with trees, but that cannot be their overriding purpose. I wish Fall Creek Parkway were still like Pleasant Run Parkway...but the cost of preserving the original state would likely have been the Northeast Freeway from the Old Northside to Binford. I prefer the "low speed expressway" with houses and trees and greenspace of today's FCP to the I-169 that wasn't built.

I guess I have just (finally) gotten too old for dogma to override reality and common sense: Life is a series of tradeoffs to accommodate competing interests, and this statement applies both to individual life and civic life. Theocracy of any kind (whether the "religion" and its "true believers" are scriptural, green, socialist, statist, health/exercise, Global Warming/Peak Oil, or some charismatic leader's cult) is SO boring and often repressive and intolerant of individual choice and expression.

All that said...I spent exactly $7.24 yesterday, at a locally-owned store. I also walked Pleasant Run for an hour or so, and "reused" a free-range turkey carcass, simmering it into wonderful rich broth. I'm happy with those choices for myself, and content to shake my head sadly at the misguided "consumers" who spent the day in pursuit of "bargains". But the world needs them too, to feed the machine that is our modern world. (Without them I wouldn't have the technology to read here and write this essay using my phone.) This weekend, though, I leave them to their crowds and parking space chase. Maybe one day they'll tire of it.

:-)

I wish it was being built to the corner - Mass Ave and it's angles need more buildings that engage the intersections!

I do like that you can see the proposal for the Barton Space across the street in some of the renders

I completely agree...we seem to shy away from using the angles presented by these intersections when, in fact, these are the best parts about these sites! I hope some of the other proposals will have addressed these angles more so.

It's not a bad looking proposal but I also wish it were a bit taller. We've always had an issue with density in Indianapolis and this is a great opportunity to push for a few more stories...not a lot more...but a few more would be more appropriate for future development.

Some folks here have been quite open about using traffic-choking (as opposed to calming) to force people out of cars and my extensive arguments have been aimed at them.

I agree that a few streets in Indy are not bike-friendly and not "nice" walks but still are plenty accommodating of pedestrians. I think we can all list many of them; I'd offer North Meridian from I-65 to Fall Creek. (Frankly, the debates on this topic often focus on the flashpoints, the high-traffic arterials. We go on endlessly about BR Ave and ignore 61st and 60th, quiet parallel neighborhood streets most times other than BR party nights.)

The vast majority of the streets most of us live on I wouldn't put in that category. In the case at hand, how many people live right on BR Ave, vs the dozen or so streets that run between it and Kessler?

[Related tangent: not too many complaints are written about College. It's relatively calm, transit and ped friendly with wide tree lawns and curb parking. And there is a separated bike trail running parallel.]

All in all, I find "the old city" (pre-auto-dominated Indy, areas developed up to about 1940) very walkable. Even a few post WW2 areas, like the neighborhoods east of the Monon and north of 46th.

I can safely walk on a "shared street" in my neighborhood, one without curbs or sidewalks. I had no reservations about wheeling my infant grandson's stroller down the street to the park, and today we walk it together. My neighbors let their bigger kids ride bikes there. These streets are more representative of "old Indy" than the arterial connectors. And because of the grid, there is almost always a way to avoid the arterials for pedestrians. This leaves the bike commuters, who should not face the choice of having to stop every block or two on side streets or risk their lives on busy arterials.

I part company on significantly increasing commute times within Center Township. Already it takes me the same amount of time to drive from home to office as it does to drive from office to 71st and Binford outbound at rush hour. Convenience (short drive times and lack of traffic congestion) is one of the benefits that I, and I suspect others, trade off against the tangible and intangible costs of living in neighborhoods with worse public schools, higher crime and insurance rates, older housing stock, and blight.

So how best to accommodate commuting by car, transit, and bike? Good 4-lane arterial streets for buses and cars, and a good separated network of bike arteries, IMO.

This is only the transportation system argument, and you raised the City Beautiful argument too. I do think our transportation corridors should be beautiful and lined with trees, but that cannot be their overriding purpose. I wish Fall Creek Parkway were still like Pleasant Run Parkway...but the cost of preserving the original state would likely have been the Northeast Freeway from the Old Northside to Binford. I prefer the "low speed expressway" with houses and trees and greenspace of today's FCP to the I-169 that wasn't built.

I guess I have just (finally) gotten too old for dogma to override reality and common sense: Life is a series of tradeoffs to accommodate competing interests, and this statement applies both to individual life and civic life. Theocracy of any kind (whether the "religion" and its "true believers" are scriptural, green, socialist, statist, health/exercise, Global Warming/Peak Oil, or some charismatic leader's cult) is SO boring and often repressive and intolerant of individual choice and expression.

All that said...I spent exactly $7.24 yesterday, at a locally-owned store. I also walked Pleasant Run for an hour or so, and "reused" a free-range turkey carcass, simmering it into wonderful rich broth. I'm happy with those choices for myself, and content to shake my head sadly at the misguided "consumers" who spent the day in pursuit of "bargains". But the world needs them too, to feed the machine that is our modern world. (Without them I wouldn't have the technology to read here and write this essay using my phone.) This weekend, though, I leave them to their crowds and parking space chase. Maybe one day they'll tire of it.

:-)

I suspect the folks who have made comments about choking traffic don't actually want choked traffic. I'm sure they are simply more comfortable with a certain amount of congestion on our streets. We all want a balanced transportation system. Unfortunately, as you know, "balance" means something different to everyone. If I understand your argument correctly, you would say that because the majority of Indy's residents drive, reducing capacity or slowing traffic to the extent that it produces congestion necessarily reduces the quality of life of residents and should be avoided. I think we all agree with that argument to some extent. In my opinion, you take it a bit too far.

I for one feel like the quality of my driving experience is improved when the design speeds of our streets match the posted speed limits. My driving experience is is improved when I get to drive on tree lined streets, when I get to see happy people walking, biking and living in our streets. My driving experience is improved when I get to drive through neighborhoods that are healthy, having been enriched and fed by their streets instead of being impacted by them. My driving experience and view of my city might even improve as I sit in the occasional traffic jam.

It seems to me that a certain amount of congestion might be an indicator that our streets are not over-built, possibly freeing up needed resources elsewhere. Some congestion might mean that folks will on occasion choose alternate modes of transportation. Some congestion might help us make a stronger argument for mass transit, a form of transportation that has many social, economic and land-use benefits.

So I guess the real question, is what kind of activity do we want in our streets? It is our choice... Do we want our streets to foster a vibrant public realm or serve the narrow interest of transportation? In my opinion, streets should not only accommodate transportation but also allow for gathering, communicating with neighbors, recreating, exercising, engaging in commerce and much more.

It is clear that you take advantage of our streets as they are currently configured. You are probably the exception. In any case, I'm not arguing that people don't often choose to use our streets for activities other than driving. I am arguing that we should make our streets more comfortable for those activities so that people will choose to engage in them more often.

It won't free up resources to narrow existing streets. It will only increase overall cost to society in delay and pollution.

Again: we're not talking about the arterials where few of us actually live. Those aren't, can't be neighborhood streets. They have to principally serve people driving cars. Choking them will not convince anyone to bike or to use a bus...those modes are even slower and will not appeal to those upset by delay.

Nice to see some development 1.5 blocks west of LOS. Looks like a solid reuse of a "good bones" industrial building. Hopefully this will help the continued momentum south of South!

http://thecranebay.com/

It won't free up resources to narrow existing streets. It will only increase overall cost to society in delay and pollution.

Again: we're not talking about the arterials where few of us actually live. Those aren't, can't be neighborhood streets. They have to principally serve people driving cars. Choking them will not convince anyone to bike or to use a bus...those modes are even slower and will not appeal to those upset by delay.

Unfortunatley, I'm not up to date on my steet classifications. Do you consider Washington, New York or Michigan Streets arterials? What about Rural, and Lasalle?

Kangaroo, you have taken it too far. There are certainly parallels between the two situations. Obvioudly the repression and hate for cyclists doesn't even rank in a surrounding category that racial segragation does, but dividing out a segment of the population and moving them aside has similarities. Much of the commercial and service based jobs and industry have located along busy roads as it was the only funded transportation for this city. I would love dedicated bike paths, but not if they don't go where I need to go. It is certainly not the end of the world to have a safer, slower BR AVE. This design works well for this area. It is a huge attraction and destination area, not an expressway. There will be an adjustment, but people will live. It is much safer for a pedestrian to cross 2 lanes of vehicle traffic than 4 and this area is filled with pedestrians.

Indy, if anything, I have not taken things far enough. You made an absurd statement, I assume out of a moment of heated emotion, and I pointed out the absurdity of it, and now, rather than showing some integrity, you refuse to apologize and admit you went overboard in your comments. So, be it.

Again, I am not taking sides in your ongoing debate with Cdcguy, I do not know who he is, nor do I care, nor do I agree with all of his points, but I do think your reaction to his comments has been a bit hysterical at times.

There is no hatred or repression of cyclists being advocated on this message board. Moreover, there is not any widespread hatred or repression of bicyclists in Indianapolis. Also, Mayor Ballard has generally been a strong supporter of cyclists. Some local motorists may get irrationally angry about having to share the road with cyclists (and these are the same people who get irrationally angry at pedestrians and at their fellow drivers), but I think most drivers just deal with it.

As for separated bike lanes, they are widely employed, even, as I pointed out, in the world bicycling mecca of Amsterdam, and they do not, in and of themselves, evidence any bias or discrimination toward bicyclists. In fact, Amsterdam's lanes demonstrate quite the opposite in that they show a preference toward bicyclists.

I think everyone on this message board wants Indianapolis to heavily invest in an expanded bike path network and pedestrian trail system, and also, a far better sidewalk system. There is some disagreement over the design and implementation of a bike trail system. But, I think there is far more consensus than disagreement.

Unfortunatley, I'm not up to date on my steet classifications. Do you consider Washington, New York or Michigan Streets arterials? What about Rural, and Lasalle?

A lot has to do with traffic counts.

Washington and Meridian are Indy's "alpha" streets and both are primary arterials.

Any other two-way street with two (no-parking) travel lanes each way is probably a primary or secondary arterial. The major one-way pairs in Center Twp are arterials (Mich/NY, Cap/Ill, Penn/Del, 29/30, Central-East/College). I am not sure about Rural between Pleasant Run and Brookside, but typically IndyGo runs on arterials so it likely also is at least a secondary.

LaSalle is definitely not primary today. The traffic signals lead me to believe that it may have been classified as secondary back in RCA's heyday 30+ years ago.

IIRC, Washington carries more than 20K cars per day. Michigan and NY about 10K each east of Sherman. Each carries a well-used bus line, and that's one of my bigger concerns with choking those streets.

A lot has to do with traffic counts.

Washington and Meridian are Indy's "alpha" streets and both are primary arterials.

Any other two-way street with two (no-parking) travel lanes each way is probably a primary or secondary arterial. The major one-way pairs in Center Twp are arterials (Mich/NY, Cap/Ill, Penn/Del, 29/30, Central-East/College). I am not sure about Rural between Pleasant Run and Brookside, but typically IndyGo runs on arterials so it likely also is at least a secondary.

LaSalle is definitely not primary today. The traffic signals lead me to believe that it may have been classified as secondary back in RCA's heyday 30+ years ago.

IIRC, Washington carries more than 20K cars per day. Michigan and NY about 10K each east of Sherman. Each carries a well-used bus line, and that's one of my bigger concerns with choking those streets.

CDC, who is advocating for choking our streets?

I mentioned the streets that I did because they all run through my neighborhood, are a part of my neighborhood and in their present form hurt my neighborhood. I know this from experience because I own a house on one of these arterials. All of those streets could easily be re-engineered to be more beautiful, slow traffic, be more pedestrian and bicycle friendly and retain sufficient auto capacity.

CDC, who is advocating for choking our streets?

I mentioned the streets that I did because they all run through my neighborhood, are a part of my neighborhood and in their present form hurt my neighborhood. I know this from experience because I own a house on one of these arterials. All of those streets could easily be re-engineered to be more beautiful, slow traffic, be more pedestrian and bicycle friendly and retain sufficient auto capacity.

Hoss, I think you hit on the crux of the point of contention with CDCGuy (please correct me where I'm wrong CDC). I believe he believes that the free flow of fast-moving traffic through your neighborhood is an asset for the City, i.e. he believes that people in neighborhoods like Irvington would not choose to live where they do if it would take them 12 minutes to get to/from downtown via Michigan & New York, instead of the 6-8 minutes it takes today. Whereas I think you and I agree that slower travel speeds, more attractive streetscapes, and more bike and pedestrian traffic along these streets will improve not only the value of the property along these corridors but on the adjacent blocks as well, I believe CDC is of the opinion that the livability and value of the property along these corridors must be sacrificed to serve the greater good for the drivers who use them. Obviously, there will always be differences between the characteristics and desirability of property along different street types. I believe that property along arterials in the city should be desirable for higher density residential and mixed-use development, which will occur when the streets are attractive and neighborhoods have pedestrian-oriented commercial services within walking distance, and vehicle traffic moves closer to 20MPH than 40MPH. Of course, the market won't likely support the higher-density mixed-use development while the streets and unattractive, noisy, and dangerous, which is why I believe many of our arterials should be redesigned not to choke traffic but to calm it.

http://www.wthr.com/story/16131535/woman-66-killed-while-crossing-street-on-northwest-side

I don't believe I've ever walked it, but this intersection doesn't appear to present nearly as long of a crossing distance as many other typical ones in Marion County, such as many along 86th Street and all of them on the current worsening West 38th Street project, which illustrates how terrible our pedestrian environment is. It would appear that the pedestrian probably didn't activate the walk signal and simply tried to cross when Colby vehicle traffic got a green light. Unfortunately, like at most all vehicle-oriented intersections, the light will only stay green long enough for the cars already queued at the intersection to proceed. Certainly, she should have activated the walk signal, presuming it was working. Perhaps it was malfunctioning and she had little choice but to cross when she did or alter or cancel her trip. I hope there is some follow up investigation to determine whether the pedestrian signal was functioning properly. I've attempted to activate pedestrian signals at other intersections that never resulted in a walk signal, so I know it's not far-fetched for that to be a possibility.

Perhaps she pushed the wrong button. I've found that it can sometimes be confusing as to which button activates which street crossing.

Perhaps she pushed the button just before the light turned green and assumed that it would not work, or didn't wish to wait another minute or two to get a walk signal on the next green light. I've also found it's not uncommon that the walk signal will not present itself if the button is pushed shortly before the light turns green, much like not getting a green turn arrow as a driver if you pull into the turn lane shortly before the light changes.

So, what easy steps could we take today to make this less likely to happen again? Narrow the crossing distance of all crosswalks by eliminating right turn lanes where not necessary, by tightening the curb radius to a maximum of 25', by providing a pedestrian refuge island in the middle of the intersection, and provide a countdown timer that displays the amount of seconds to cross as are becoming more common (especially downtown), and (this is a big one) making sure that enough time is given to cross the street, especially considering that pedestrians don't all move at the same speed.

Better lighting would also be great. So many of our arterials are so poorly lit, with either little to no lighting, or lights that are poorly positioned and/or blocked by trees, typically because the lights are too highly elevated. An IMPD officer indicated it was dark so the driver couldn't see the pedestrian. How can it be acceptable that City streets in a commercial area are so dark that a pedestrian crossing the street can't be seen?

http://g.co/maps/kspkx

http://www.wthr.com/story/16131535/woman-66-killed-while-crossing-street-on-northwest-side

I don't believe I've ever walked it, but this intersection doesn't appear to present nearly as long of a crossing distance as many other typical ones in Marion County, such as many along 86th Street and all of them on the current worsening West 38th Street project, which illustrates how terrible our pedestrian environment is. It would appear that the pedestrian probably didn't activate the walk signal and simply tried to cross when Colby vehicle traffic got a green light. Unfortunately, like at most all vehicle-oriented intersections, the light will only stay green long enough for the cars already queued at the intersection to proceed. Certainly, she should have activated the walk signal, presuming it was working. Perhaps it was malfunctioning and she had little choice but to cross when she did or alter or cancel her trip. I hope there is some follow up investigation to determine whether the pedestrian signal was functioning properly. I've attempted to activate pedestrian signals at other intersections that never resulted in a walk signal, so I know it's not far-fetched for that to be a possibility.

Perhaps she pushed the wrong button. I've found that it can sometimes be confusing as to which button activates which street crossing.

Perhaps she pushed the button just before the light turned green and assumed that it would not work, or didn't wish to wait another minute or two to get a walk signal on the next green light. I've also found it's not uncommon that the walk signal will not present itself if the button is pushed shortly before the light turns green, much like not getting a green turn arrow as a driver if you pull into the turn lane shortly before the light changes.

So, what easy steps could we take today to make this less likely to happen again? Narrow the crossing distance of all crosswalks by eliminating right turn lanes where not necessary, by tightening the curb radius to a maximum of 25', by providing a pedestrian refuge island in the middle of the intersection, and provide a countdown timer that displays the amount of seconds to cross as are becoming more common (especially downtown), and (this is a big one) making sure that enough time is given to cross the street, especially considering that pedestrians don't all move at the same speed.

Better lighting would also be great. So many of our arterials are so poorly lit, with either little to no lighting, or lights that are poorly positioned and/or blocked by trees, typically because the lights are too highly elevated. An IMPD officer indicated it was dark so the driver couldn't see the pedestrian. How can it be acceptable that City streets in a commercial area are so dark that a pedestrian crossing the street can't be seen?

http://g.co/maps/kspkx

I don't accept that "it was dark out" as a valid excuse. When you drive, you are in charge of your vehicle and the elements around it. If you believe it is too dark, then you must slow down, just as with rain or snow.

Some folks here have been quite open about using traffic-choking (as opposed to calming) to force people out of cars and my extensive arguments have been aimed at them.

Don't think I've ever read anyone here advocate "choking."

Hoss, I think you hit on the crux of the point of contention with CDCGuy (please correct me where I'm wrong CDC). I believe he believes that the free flow of fast-moving traffic through your neighborhood is an asset for the City, i.e. he believes that people in neighborhoods like Irvington would not choose to live where they do if it would take them 12 minutes to get to/from downtown via Michigan & New York, instead of the 6-8 minutes it takes today. Whereas I think you and I agree that slower travel speeds, more attractive streetscapes, and more bike and pedestrian traffic along these streets will improve not only the value of the property along these corridors but on the adjacent blocks as well, I believe CDC is of the opinion that the livability and value of the property along these corridors must be sacrificed to serve the greater good for the drivers who use them. Obviously, there will always be differences between the characteristics and desirability of property along different street types. I believe that property along arterials in the city should be desirable for higher density residential and mixed-use development, which will occur when the streets are attractive and neighborhoods have pedestrian-oriented commercial services within walking distance, and vehicle traffic moves closer to 20MPH than 40MPH. Of course, the market won't likely support the higher-density mixed-use development while the streets and unattractive, noisy, and dangerous, which is why I believe many of our arterials should be redesigned not to choke traffic but to calm it.

Idyllic has presented a kind of capsule, with one major exception and several major omissions. Without them it's possible to paint my argument as entirely pro-sprawl, pro-automobile, and anti-neighborhood, which it is not.

Exception: 8 minutes from Emerson to College (not Irvington to downtown) is possible on Michigan only if there is light traffic entering (i.e. no cars stopped at signals), no train, no school bus, and strictly observing the posted 35/30 regular and 25mph school limits. Irvington to a downtown destination is probably more like 15-20 minutes, similar to Meridian Kessler or Butler Tarkington. All are about 5-6 miles from downtown. (The average speed if a six-mile trip takes 20 minutes is 18mph. 24mph if it takes 15 minutes. Plenty slow.)

Omissions: (1) the "sacrifice" was a half-century or so ago when the streets were converted. (2) IMO the near east neighborhoods are far more negatively influenced by the correctional facility that touches both Michigan and NY than the busy streets, (3) those same free-flowing arterials help make transit and bike trip times quicker, which captures some "choice" riders and does not excessively penalize the "no choice" riders.

Again, let's count the single and double houses on the arterials and compare that to the number in the (relatively) quiet streets between the arterials. I'd estimate that 85-90% of the neighborhoods' houses are NOT fronting on those busy streets. Most of the remaining multi-family housing IS located there. Most new multi-family is built/rehabbed there, such as the Englewood CDC project at the former Lucretia Mott School #3.

I also disagree that the market won't support higher density along arterials without traffic calming or streetscape improvements. It typically does: on the Meridian corridor in the past three decades, Van Rooy and Axia Urban have invested millions of dollars in rehabbing apartments such as the St. James, Meridian Walk, Warren, Sheldrake, and Marott. Canal Gardens was built right off West St. On Fall Creek Parkway, Pennsylvania, and Washington St., Chris Piazza has invested millions in rehabbing old apartments. 1201 Indiana and 11th & Indiana are brand-new developments on arterials, as is the aforementioned Englewood development on Rural St. I expect they'll be fully occupied soon after completion, too: because the apartments are conveniently located for drivers, cyclists, and transit riders, they are typically leased up.

The multi-family comes first, and then commercial. Then, when there is somewhere to go or something to look at along a street, traffic slows itself. It is losing additional multi-family and commercial investment that I fear, if a bunch of arterials are choked before they are redeveloped.

So the more succinct distillation of my opinion regarding Hoss' comments is that people choose where to live based less on the beauty of the streets they drive to work and more on the street on which they actually live and the time/distance they're willing to commute. I suppose the corollary is that relatively few people with enough money to choose would favor a single-family home along a busy arterial; multi-family typically works there because it isn't really "family" housing but singles and pairs.

Don't think I've ever read anyone here advocate "choking."

Proponents don't call it that, of course, just as suburbanites don't call their towns and counties "sprawl".

This discussion started on Urban Indy in specific regard to the Broad Ripple Ave. bike lanes, which replaced traffic lanes on an arterial that carries 24,000 cars per day (busier than Kessler, Meridian, or College in the same area).

That street has been choked. BR Ave is the only two-lane, two-way arterial attempting to carry 24,000 vpd in the Midtown area. Most of the other streets with bike lanes have been calmed, (though one might argue that Illinois north of 16th has simply been made dangerous with lanes that become turn-only lanes without warning).

Various members of the Urban Indy team (at least four) have strongly advocated that street redesign, while discounting alternative bike plans and the neighbors' objections to the increased wait times to get out of their streets and the increased cut-through traffic on 61st St.

I'm personally open to alternative solutions such as a multi-use path along Broad Ripple Avenue or using 61st Street as a bike corridor.

I will say this, though, BR Ave certainly feels much safer to travel now for each mode (including vehicles) than it did in the past. Perception isn't data, though, and it will be interesting to see what the data bears. Reopening the lanes to vehicles would not be a positive step for safety, walkability, or bicycling, IMO. Crossing the street on foot is much easier now than it was in the past. I think this is getting overlooked, unfortunately.

I don't really want to get in the middle of this but wanted to point out two things:

1. The 1-lane, 2-way section of BR Ave between College and the Monon carries in the neighborhood of 21,500 cars. Even if we say that's the theoretical max capacity of the new 1-lane, 2-way section of BR Ave (most likely not true), we've only reduced capacity by 10% in order to accommodate bicycles in addition to making the road slower and safer for vehicles.

2. Citing vocal neighborhood opposition to the reconfiguration is not fair. Obviously they're going to be the louder voice right now. It should also be clear to anyone that looks around the city that DPW did not spearhead this plan and drive it down the neighborhood's throat -- lane eliminations are not in their DNA. Neighborhood forces were most definitely behind the new configuration, so there are pro and con groups in the neighborhood.

I don't really want to get in the middle of this but wanted to point out two things:

1. The 1-lane, 2-way section of BR Ave between College and the Monon carries in the neighborhood of 21,500 cars. Even if we say that's the theoretical max capacity of the new 1-lane, 2-way section of BR Ave (most likely not true), we've only reduced capacity by 10% in order to accommodate bicycles in addition to making the road slower and safer for vehicles.

2. Citing vocal neighborhood opposition to the reconfiguration is not fair. Obviously they're going to be the louder voice right now. It should also be clear to anyone that looks around the city that DPW did not spearhead this plan and drive it down the neighborhood's throat -- lane eliminations are not in their DNA. Neighborhood forces were most definitely behind the new configuration, so there are pro and con groups in the neighborhood.

1. People can and will tolerate a few blocks of choked traffic, but not two miles. This change could drive people away from the remaining Broad Ripple retail (that isn't food & drink), and/or send them onto 61st St.
2. There is a legitimate reason for very slow traffic in the Village: street parking in front of three or four blocks of sidewalk food & drink commercial. That doesn't (and is unlikely to) exist east of the Monon unless there's a rail line in the street.
3. Since the College-Monon segment is distinctly different from the BRHS-Keystone segment, it warranted a different configuration of street. It used to have more travel lanes, but there was so much parking and left turning that it was naturally choked already. It was a good thing to remove travel lane(s) that didn't really travel to install a center left-only and a Monon Trail refuge island. The situation is the opposite for the BRHS-Keystone segment, which is typical suburban "parking in front" set-back commercial mixed into residential.

According to this measurement, the distance (http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=1001+Broad+Ripple+Avenue,+Indianapolis,+IN&daddr=broad+ripple+avenue+and+keystone&hl=en&ll=39.869169,-86.131954&spn=0.025593,0.038581&sll=39.867621,-86.130667&sspn=0.025593,0.038581&geocode=FXVcYAIdK5Xd-ilPcvrmrlNriDHjgC0b5PK8RA%3BFQZZYAIdyeDd-iklfOJOWlJriDEjbboH-SvI0A&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&t=m&z=15) of this portion of BRAve is actually one mile, not two.

3. Since the College-Monon segment is distinctly different from the BRHS-Keystone segment, it warranted a different configuration of street. It used to have more travel lanes, but there was so much parking and left turning that it was naturally choked already. It was a good thing to remove travel lane(s) that didn't really travel to install a center left-only and a Monon Trail refuge island. The situation is the opposite for the BRHS-Keystone segment, which is typical suburban "parking in front" set-back commercial mixed into residential.

I agree with your assessement of the current built form. However, over time it would be nice to see some of those business nodes along there thrive in a manner that doesnt require crossing 4 lanes of swift traffic to get to it. I believe that the bike lanes are a step in getting us there.

As you know, I am also 100% in favor of in-street rail along this portion. I fail to see how you can be supportive of rail and not of bike lanes when they both address the current form and act to modify it in similar ways by removing places for cars to travel and in which the outcome could be similar. I realize the benefits of rail far outweigh bike lanes, but in the end, they will both slow traffic, increase business awareness when people are driving slower than the current excessive speeds, and create more pedestrian and bike friendly environments.