I've ruminated about the Georgia St. improvement for the morning and I have a hard time getting behind the idea. To me, there are two issues:

1. Should this be done at all?
2. If so, is $12.5M a reasonable cost?

My answer to (1) is yes. By all means, prepare for the temporary closing of Georgia for the Super Bowl and other similarly high-profile events, and do whatever beautification you deem necessary for that purpose.

My answer to (2) is NO. $12.5M is a gratuitous sum of money to spend on three blocks of street. Let's compare that cost to the Cultural Trail, an amenity already being described as world-class in design quality:

The Cultural Trail is around 6 or 7 miles (can't seem to find the exact length right now) and costs a total of $60M. For simplicity and conservative cost estimation, let's say it's 6 miles -- that's $1M per mile-square city block. Three blocks of Georgia redone to a design standard like the Cultural Trail should cost about $3M.

How is god's name should it cost more than FOUR TIMES that to redo Georgia St.? Are they planning to paint the center line in 24k gold?

Someone needs to explain how that money will be spent. The people on this forum will likely support the concept of building complete streets combined with the need to constantly raise the bar when it comes to event hosting. To many people, however, it's going to appear wasteful to spend ANY money on three perfectly functional city blocks when there is crumbling infrastructure all over the city and city leaders are constantly complaining that there aren't sufficient funds to address that problem. It's not going to help matters that the spending rate appears gratuitous to boot.

Someone needs to explain how that money will be spent....It's not going to help matters that the spending rate appears gratuitous to boot.

I think the overall concept seems solid, but I would have to know the details of the plan to opine as to whether the amount budgeted is excessive or not.

In any event, by the time these things get reported in the Star they are a done deal. The money being used is primarily coming from a federal grant. The city has to meet federal reporting requirements in order to allocate and spend the money, so the plan was hashed out awhile ago.

Also, while perhaps someone should explain how the money will be spent, remember, this is Indianapolis and this is for the Super Bowl. So, no explanation is going to be given beyond the normal details reported for such projects. When the city bids the contract work out, there will be more information about the details.

I've ruminated about the Georgia St. improvement for the morning and I have a hard time getting behind the idea. To me, there are two issues:

1. Should this be done at all?
2. If so, is $12.5M a reasonable cost?

My answer to (1) is yes. By all means, prepare for the temporary closing of Georgia for the Super Bowl and other similarly high-profile events, and do whatever beautification you deem necessary for that purpose.

My answer to (2) is NO. $12.5M is a gratuitous sum of money to spend on three blocks of street. Let's compare that cost to the Cultural Trail, an amenity already being described as world-class in design quality:

The Cultural Trail is around 6 or 7 miles (can't seem to find the exact length right now) and costs a total of $60M. For simplicity and conservative cost estimation, let's say it's 6 miles -- that's $1M per mile-square city block. Three blocks of Georgia redone to a design standard like the Cultural Trail should cost about $3M.

How is god's name should it cost more than FOUR TIMES that to redo Georgia St.? Are they planning to paint the center line in 24k gold?

Someone needs to explain how that money will be spent. The people on this forum will likely support the concept of building complete streets combined with the need to constantly raise the bar when it comes to event hosting. To many people, however, it's going to appear wasteful to spend ANY money on three perfectly functional city blocks when there is crumbling infrastructure all over the city and city leaders are constantly complaining that there aren't sufficient funds to address that problem. It's not going to help matters that the spending rate appears gratuitous to boot.

One thing to consider is that the average width of the Cultural Trail is about 15 feet. If they are looking at redeveloping all of Georgia Street and adjacent sidewalks, say 60 feet in width, the costs fall in line with the Cultural Trail numbers.

One thing to consider is that the average width of the Cultural Trail is about 15 feet. If they are looking at redeveloping all of Georgia Street and adjacent sidewalks, say 60 feet in width, the costs fall in line with the Cultural Trail numbers.
I had considered that and I'll admit that a direct one-to-one comparison is probably not fair. But to say the trail is 15' and Georgia is 60' so it should cost 4x is also not fair.

It's true that the trail itself is about 15', but much of the infrastructure around the trail in sections already built has been upgraded as well. St. Clair was gutted down to dirt. Walnut was rebuilt sidewalk to sidewalk with special bricks for the road bed. Alabama was completely resurfaced. I'm sure the West End of Mass Ave is going to get a nice resurfacing when everything is done. And the final $20M federal grant provided a budget bump from $55M to $60M to provide for additional rebuilding of other pieces of infrastructure on sections of the trail still to be built.

I'm on board with the Georgia concept. I just don't like the price point or the public sell job on something that I understand is already a done deal.

The city should consider merging the pedestrian friendly Monument Circle project with the Georgia Street facelift (dropping the Georgia Street part).

I agree with the popular opinion concerning Monument Circle. Sure, the circle is a great place to host big events like the Faith Hill concert, Circle of Lights and Super Bowl events in 2012, but I do not see value in permanently closing the circle to cars. Rather, Monument Circle can become more pedestrian friendly while sharing space with cars (baring big events). This is exactly what was proposed for Georgia Street which begs the question, why not monument Circle?

One rebuttal could be location. Georgia Street connects the convention center to Conseco and is closer to Lucas Oil by 2.5 blocks. On the flip side a 2.5 block walk might not be a bad idea for Super Bowl activity patrons. Plus, in the future, this will be a pleasant walk with the Cultural Trail linking Monument Circle to Lucas Oil and the convention center via Meridian – Washington - Capital.

This led me to my next question. Why not both? For huge events like the Super Bowl and the Final Four both Georgia Street and Monument Circle could be utilized. The only argument for ‘why not both’ is money and it sounds like both have funding. I hope consolidation of these projects is considered to save or use elsewhere the $12.5M.

http://www.ibj.com/property-lines/2010/05/04/just-in-renderings-of-125m-georgia-street-makeover/PARAMS/post/19742

I'm pretty mixed about this really. On one hand it seems like a streetwide cultural trail. Mixed with a nice pedestrian walkway down the middle. Reminds me alot of the French Quarters near the Cafe du Monde in New Orleans.

However, shame on Ratio Architects for having the Green Bay Packers in their renderings. What horrible taste, especially for a hometown firm!

Overall, I'll reserve my judgment until I see the final product.

http://www.ibj.com/property-lines/2010/05/04/just-in-renderings-of-125m-georgia-street-makeover/PARAMS/post/19742

I'm pretty mixed about this really. On one hand it seems like a streetwide cultural trail. Mixed with a nice pedestrian walkway down the middle. Reminds me alot of the French Quarters near the Cafe du Monde in New Orleans.

However, shame on Ratio Architects for having the Green Bay Packers in their renderings. What horrible taste, especially for a hometown firm!

Overall, I'll reserve my judgment until I see the final product.
IF these are Super Bowl renderings, where the hell are the clouds? Or the snow? They aren't wearing coats, either.

I know I'm being facetious, but come on. At least make it try to look realistic.

I think it sounds like a pretty good idea. As for the price point. There are fixed costs and variable costs. Even if it was only one block, there are still the upfront costs which must be taken care of. I'm not defending it or saying it is completely reasonable, but I think the price could make sense.

First off, this is a clone of Las Ramblas in Barcelona. But downtown Indianapolis does not have anything approaching that density of pedestrians or development. Who is going to patronize those kiosks during the day when the streets of the wholesale district are empty?

Much as with trying to convert the Circle into a "European style plaza", folks seem not to have thought much about the fact that this isn't Europe. This could easily become yet another bleak hardscape much of the time.

First off, this is a clone of Las Ramblas in Barcelona. But downtown Indianapolis does not have anything approaching that density of pedestrians or development. Who is going to patronize those kiosks during the day when the streets of the wholesale district are empty?

Much as with trying to convert the Circle into a "European style plaza", folks seem not to have thought much about the fact that this isn't Europe. This could easily become yet another bleak hardscape much of the time.

Shouldn't we at least be giving Indy some props for going against the status quo? I think while there still may be some problems with these concepts we should still be thankful they're thinking outside of the good ole' midwestern box. Ya know?

First off, this is a clone of Las Ramblas in Barcelona. But downtown Indianapolis does not have anything approaching that density of pedestrians or development. Who is going to patronize those kiosks during the day when the streets of the wholesale district are empty?

Much as with trying to convert the Circle into a "European style plaza", folks seem not to have thought much about the fact that this isn't Europe. This could easily become yet another bleak hardscape much of the time.

Arenn, based on the information in the IBJ and Star articles, Georgia Street will not be closed to traffic full time, unlike the Circle proposal. The so-called "plaza" will only be closed off during special events; otherwise, it will remain an active vehicular street, though with significantly more room given over to pedestrians.

As for the kiosks, I think at least some of them are temporary installations for the Super Bowl.

I don't see how this area would turn into "bleak hardscape," anymore than the Cultural Trail would be bleak during periods of lower activity. So long as the city properly maintains the street, I think it seems like a great idea.

And yes, Indianapolis isn't Europe. However, I think downtown Indianapolis can support an active pedestrian street life, if walking in downtown is made a safer and more enjoyable experience.

I just think its great to see something new and somewhat different coming here to Indianapolis -- once again. We could have just hosted the Super Bowl with Lucas Oil Stadium and the attached - expanded convention center -- and called it a day. Probably what Miami, Tampa, Dallas, New Orleans, etc. would do. I was in Tampa when they hosted the Super Bowl a few years ago. It was fun -- but there really was nothing too special or particularly special that the local community did. Likewise with Miami this past year. About the only thing special in downtown Miami were some street banners and large posters on the sides of buildings -- and more parties than usual. And -- for both of those cities - and most of the other typical southern Super Bowl cities (New Orleans being one of the exceptions) - the football facility is so far from downtown -- there really is no connection between the crowds downtown and the folks at the Football Stadium. With these Georgia Street improvements -- it will expand the event from a six or seven block event - mostly indoors -- to an event that connects the venue to the heart of downtown - and makes it a 20 block + party - with a lot of it being in nice, walkable areas and plazas.

The other thing to remember is that -- with the doubling of the convention center -- we are going to start seeing more and more of the 30,000 - 50,000 person conventions. Right now -- when the FFA convention is in town (50,000 or so people) - we have these ugly metal barricade things put up in the street to help "herd" the folks through the streets between the CC and Conseco. With this new improved three block walkway between the two - it will look a lot better and should help make the movement of the people a greatly improved experience. Besides conventions, this will also be great for future Final Fours; Future Big Ten tourneys, and other similar big events.

This reminds me vaguely of Lincoln Road in Miami Beach. Generally, I think its a good thing. I hope the style fits ok with the brick, wholesale district surroundings. I sure hope that there are some more major improvements that happen along this three block corridor because of this planned improvement. Hopefully this will help strengthen the chances that the Aloft and Le Meridien hotels get built on the empty lot to the west of Conseco - with southern frontage along Georgia Street. Also -- that sad looking building to the south of Kilroys needs some major improvement. CSX Railroad has its local offices in there. I'd love to see them move out to a new location somewhere else -- (hopefully for them, sell the building for a nice profit) and turn the building into loft apartments or condos with first floor retail (although I guess right now they're talking about turning the first floor into some type of police museum). It'd be nice to see something put in on the small parking lot corner by St. John's church; see the Pan Am Plaza property completely changed into a new mixed use complex with restaurants, retail and a hotel - with possible residential as well; also to see improvements to the south end of Circle Centre. They need to make a new southern entrance - since Harry and Izzy's basically swallowed the southwest entrance. Some type of new entrance - perhaps across from the Omni would be good. It sure seems to make sense, with that new corridor being a main walkway between Conseco and the Convention Center.

Indy will continue to strengthen its growing reputation as being more bike and pedestrian friendly. With the Cultural Trail, the Circle (either as it currently exists or with more pedestrian improvements), bronze bicycle friendly ranking, new bike lanes and continued growth of bikeways and greenways, and with this Georgia Street project - there will have been an amazing change in a matter of a few years. Hopefully we will also get to see significant improvements in transit as well in the near future.

One of the biggest differences between Las Ramblas and Georgia Street is that Georgia Street is only three blocks long. The main, walkable, high density segment of Las Ramblas is a good mile and a half. I've walked from the Christopher Columbus statue all the way to the big public park / plaza at the other end. I agree that currently, Georgia Street isn't typically too dense - however - sometimes it gets some pretty high density pedestrian traffic - ie after Pacers games, concerts, Friday and Saturday nights in the summers, during a few very large conventions, etc. Also - there is always potential that it could get more dense - with future development. Maybe this will help encourage additional new residential down in this area. Also - if a transit hub happens at Union Station - hopefully new offices will locate nearby for the convenience that it offers. Sure - it might not be too "dense" right now - but it could be in the future - and sometimes you have to put in place the tools to help leverage growth down the road. I think it is good that Indianapolis is using these federal monies to make improvements and hopefully help encourage continued future growth in this area and in nearby surrounding areas.

To be honest I was livid when Mayor Ballard was elected. Now, I like that he has the guts to change some tangible things in our city. He cut a lot of arts funding which is close to my heart, but he seems to be doing good things for the future. I am a dem, but a logical one. My fist thought was that he would pull all gov out of the private sector and let the city flounder, but he seems to have an open mind when it comes to inspiring future growth. Maybe with these projects the arts won't need as much public funding... If more people start choosing to live DT. I do have my problems with him, but I like him well enough at this point. it could be a lot worse. If he would only get behind the smoking ban then I would be truly impressed. (sorry to talk politics)

None of it really seems unreasonable. I just hope that the upside actually happens and we do really improve the pedestrian appeal of Indy.

I would be remiss to not mention how frustrating it is sensing the overall pessimism with the recent ideas. Especially in regards to pedestrian improvements.

At least someone is doing sometihng to make downtown a little bit more walkable. The Cultural Trail will connect in with this too.

Personally, I dont see how we lose with this. Until it is done, who can say, but the renderings look pretty good. To that end, maybe that is where the $12.5 million went. ;)

I would be remiss to not mention how frustrating it is sensing the overall pessimism with the recent ideas. Especially in regards to pedestrian improvements.

Word.

I would be remiss to not mention how frustrating it is sensing the overall pessimism with the recent ideas. Especially in regards to pedestrian improvements.

At least someone is doing sometihng to make downtown a little bit more walkable. The Cultural Trail will connect in with this too.

Personally, I dont see how we lose with this. Until it is done, who can say, but the renderings look pretty good. To that end, maybe that is where the $12.5 million went. ;)

I hear you on this. I thought we were supposed to be narrowing our over-wide streets and embracing street life. I'm confused at this point. Narrowing Georgia Street may not be a "uniquely Indianapolis" solution, but as far as I can tell, most of our unique solutions in the past 50 years have been to give as much space to cars as possible. So where are we supposed to turn if we no longer think that's a good thing for the city?

I would be remiss to not mention how frustrating it is sensing the overall pessimism with the recent ideas. Especially in regards to pedestrian improvements.

At least someone is doing sometihng to make downtown a little bit more walkable. The Cultural Trail will connect in with this too.

Personally, I dont see how we lose with this. Until it is done, who can say, but the renderings look pretty good. To that end, maybe that is where the $12.5 million went. ;)

Sorry to frustrate you, Curt. I know I've been very "vocal" and harsh about Monument Circle. I try not to be very critical without good reasoning, and I try to be pretty enthusiastically supportive when a good idea pops up. (Like a College Ave. streetcar.)

I am very critical of the Monument Circle closing because the "ped mall at the heart of downtown" has failed in every other big US city that tried it, and there is no compelling argument why it would work any better here. It will also cut off access to the front door of three venerable city institutions: Circle Theater/ISO, Columbia Club, and Christ Church Cathedral (to a lesser extent than the other two).

What if the city decided to shut off your front street and declared that the only car access to your house or work would henceforth be by the alley in back? Or worse, by foot only from parking a block and a half away? Great if you're young and fit and unencumbered, but not everyone is...how would your parents or grandparents visit, and do you really want to wheel a baby and paraphernalia a block and a half?

Considering Georgia St.: I agree with the concept of doing something there pre-2012. I like the shared-space utilization and find it strange that the City wants to mix cars and people in this space but not in the space at Monument Circle. Inconsistent, without good reason.

I have some concern about the level of investment, mostly because our city isn't so great at regular maintenance of its "special spaces". Exhibit one: Market St./Monument Circle brick paving. Exhibit two: Pan Am Plaza. Exhibit three: downtown canal (muck removal once in 10 or 12 years). How will this look in 2016 for the state's bicentennial celebration, or in 2021 for the city's? How much will it add to an already-strained city budget to maintain? Note: I am not making the knee-jerk Tea Party anti-any-tax argument. I just want to know how much extra it will cost every year when we already can't maintain our city parks, pools, and trails fully.

I also hope that the city will contract with someone, perhaps Indianapolis Downtown Inc. or ICVA, to regularly "program" both spaces. Active management is a key to place-making, according to PPS (http://www.pps.org/). Perhaps such a public-private partnership could generate event revenue that would pay the maintenance cost.

Chris, I still stand by what I said about the monument circle. Maybe we make some concessions for those two places since they hold some civic value and over time have evolved into a car-centric business model. I can concede that.

But besides that (and it is a big besides) I still see no ill-value in closing it to cars. People are still going to gather there like they do today because any given day, its not people from either the Columbia Club or the theater gathering on the square. Oft times they are scurring back to their cars or someplace else NOT the monument. And using it as a parking lot doenst work either, because I feel a high percentage of people looking to park there, end up parking somewhere else. There can be some kind of compromise to pedestrianizing the circle. Is it the chicken (close it and push development) or the egg (encourage development with the intent to eventually close it off)?

Take the cars off. It is not going to be any worse than it is. And the city could encourage some of the existing buildings to open up their street level to other vendors. Make it truly european-esque where a restaraunt goes out at 5pm and sets up 10 tables for evening dining and then pulls them in at night. That would liven it up.

But as for this killing the circle, it is not going to.

As for Georgia, maybe its not the bastion of the pedestrian experience right now. But to use your own argument about rail based development, build it, and entice them to come. Change the zoning or offer an incentive to liven the street level for people. In the end, $12-$18 million is a drop in the bucket considering the majority of it comes from federal sources, so why not do it. Maybe we can learn from the past and try and keep this up.

I approach these innitiatives with optimism that they are done in the right spirit. But if we all put up this front like we could have done it better (and be real, doing it better means changing a lot to make it more conducive to pedestrians through other modifications as well), of course people arent going to be excited about it.

I love the Georgia Street idea and think it will be a great addition. The street is rarely used and is a perfect corridor for more intensive pedestrain activity.

The Circle on teh other hand...I am not too sure just yet.

What about Pan American Plaza? Has everyone forgot about it? I would hope the city or the private company that owns Pan American Plaza would fix that eyesore as well, especially since it will be within the same civic plaza walking area and is basically the "front door" to the Convention Center. I know there was some earlier mention of redevelopement as well, however I imagine with current credit markets it too has dried up. Right now the city should be embarrassed by the broken bricks and fountains and general disrepair of what was once a nice civic plaza and a tribute to hosting the Pan American Games. Why don't we fix our current civic plaza's before trying to create more?

Georgia Street:

I know there has been some reservation to the Georgia Street make over, but I noticed on IBJ Proper Lines in their story was a link to the PDF file that is 25 pages showing many renderings etc... I like this quite a bit. Additionally with Penn Center possibly anchoring this one one end with Ralston Square to the south and the redevelopment of pan am plaza, this could be a really nice intimate space that is currently somewhat cold and lacking of personality now.

http://www.ibj.com/ext/resources/blog/propertylines/Georgia-Street.pdf

Living down here in Austin, TX, I know this would be a smash here if it were built. Especially with all the live music and bar scene

What about Pan American Plaza? Has everyone forgot about it? I would hope the city or the private company that owns Pan American Plaza would fix that eyesore as well, especially since it will be within the same civic plaza walking area and is basically the "front door" to the Convention Center. I know there was some earlier mention of redevelopement as well, however I imagine with current credit markets it too has dried up. Right now the city should be embarrassed by the broken bricks and fountains and general disrepair of what was once a nice civic plaza and a tribute to hosting the Pan American Games. Why don't we fix our current civic plaza's before trying to create more?

Look back to page 50, about half way down we begin a discussion of Pan Am Plaza. I don't think that anything new has happened since.

Look back to page 50, about half way down we begin a discussion of Pan Am Plaza. I don't think that anything new has happened since.

^^I remember the discussions from before. MY POINT: Nothing has happened and probably won't concidering the current credit crunch. No one can get financing for new development.... hense the demise of SoDo, Ralston, Penn Center, Merrill Tower. If they aren't going to redevelope Pan American Plaza, at least fix the eyesore that is currently there before starting new civic plaza ventures. We only have 2 years till the SuperBowl. An easy fix would be to pull up all the broken brick and fill in with green space and trees.

Indianapolis #24 on list of FATTEST cities in USA = grade D-. http://health.msn.com/weight-loss/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100257787&gt1=31036

Anyone up for a burger and a beer? haha

Indianapolis #24 on list of FATTEST cities in USA = grade D-. http://health.msn.com/weight-loss/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100257787&gt1=31036

Anyone up for a burger and a beer? haha


What's really surprising is that Cincinnati gets an A grade, the only Midwestern city in the top 10.

Indianapolis #24 on list of FATTEST cities in USA = grade D-. http://health.msn.com/weight-loss/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100257787&gt1=31036

Anyone up for a burger and a beer? haha

I believe it. On my way to office on the 10th floor of where I work, there's nothing but FAT people on the elevator drinking their oversize sodas. So sad.

People are still going to gather there ....

Take the cars off. It is not going to be any worse than it is. And the city could encourage some of the existing buildings to open up their street level to other vendors. Make it truly european-esque where a restaraunt goes out at 5pm and sets up 10 tables for evening dining and then pulls them in at night. That would liven it up.

But as for this killing the circle, it is not going to.


You unintentionally made my point, Curt: people gather there now. More people won't gather there because we take cars off. Fewer might...or more homeless beggars might concentrate there as they already do in University Park & Legion Mall, which probably isn't what the (curiously, unnamed) officials who are pushing this proposal forward anticipate or desire.

I'm arguing that we need to leave traffic on the circle just to show people an excellent model of car-and-pedestrian coexistence. Putting a no-vehicle zone there denies almost 200 years of history. Remember our flag and motto: Crossroads of America. The Circle was planned for traffic...in 1821.

The reality is we're all going to be driving or riding in cars some for the rest of our lives in Indy. And the likelihood is that we're all going to need cars to get many places, even with the IndyConnect improvements. A no-car Indy is an un-achievable fantasy.

Thus, I think Monument Circle should be our region's model and laboratory of how to have a place where cars and people coexist without favoring one over the other.

We have plenty of car-free gathering places for people downtown: University Park/War Memorial/Legion Mall, the Canal, Military Park, or WRSP. All are easily walkable from the Circle, so by definition they're all available to people who want a car-free hanging out experience.

I think Monument Circle should be our region's model and laboratory of how to have a place where cars and people coexist without favoring one over the other.

To this point: when's the last time you heard about a pedestrian being killed by a vehicle on Monument Circle or the bricked part of Market between CCB and the Capitol?

It happens too much in other parts of town...Keystone Ave., Allisonville Rd., Michigan Rd. are the last three I remember. But not on the Circle.

I will say this. It wont bother me if it remains as it is today. It is still a great place to hang out. I would love to see it improved. Some of the compromises pitched including widening the donut around the monument to make it bigger to accomodate more people would be nice.

As for arguing for closure, I think there is a case to be made. It isn't gloom and doom as some people seem to be spinning it since it was announced.

There is a place for these conversations and Im glad we are all talking about the different points. :)

These ideas seem to be what "Complete Streets" are all about. You design a corridor segment with all appropriate travel modes in mind, designing the space to handle each in an appropriate way for the area. The Circle should be designed to handle bikes, pedestrians and slow moving cars in a comfortable way. Georgia Street, likewise, isn't all that important as a corridor for cars. The plan looks good, because it does include them in its design -- but it much more significantly is designed for pedestrians (and bicycles?).

Overall, I think both "pedestrianization" ideas are a good thing. My thoughts on the Circle are that it should receive a slight make-over to make it easier to limit auto access at certain times - but for the most part, it should remain open for vehicles. (It might not be a bad idea to annually close it to autos in August -- because I believe the Circle Theater isn't too busy during that month because of the concerts at Connor Prarie.) To provide flexibility, it could have bollards that can easily be raised out of the street, to limit vehicle access at varying times. For much of the time, however, there is no reason to limit vehicle usage. There is not a huge amount of vehicular traffic - and it moves slowly, so there is no major difficulty for pedestrians to move around in the area. (People in cars need to remember that pedestrians currently have the right of way pretty much everywhere on the Circle block.) Also -- its not a huge deal -- but right now, there are always the orange and white wooden barricade boards lying around at different points around the Circle. They are ugly - both when they are in use and when they are not in use, and are lying around in various locations. Raisable bollards would be a "neater" way to barricade different sections of the Circle and allow the police to stop leaving the wooden boards lying around haphazardly.

I find it ironic that the City is investing millions in attempting to create better pedestrian environments that already work very well for pedestrians, while at the same time planning to rebuild West 38th Street from I-65 to High School Road, which will include construction of sidewalks immediately adjacent to high-speed traffic. What's really disappointing is that, although many portions of this corridor don't currently have sidewalks, many portions do, and most of those sidewalks are separated from the street by a landscape strip. The new sidewalks will place pedestrians an arms length from fast-moving cars, and thus, they will only be used by people who have no other choice. The project will not in any way encourage pedestrian traffic.

Separating sidewalks from moving traffic (unless it's going very slow like on the Circle) is a very basic principle of street design. Unfortunately, the people who design all the City's projects, outside of downtown, probably don't walk anywhere except between a building and a parking lot. These certainly are not the same people who are developing downtown projects like the Cultural Trail or this Georgia Street project. The Georgia Street money could be better used elsewhere, but at least the project will likely be designed to provide a better place for people. The difference is that the Cultural Trail and the Georgia Street project are designed by people other than the City's Department of Public Works. It would be nice if they could show some interest in building a better city in the 395 or so square miles that aren't downtown.

I would be remiss to not mention how frustrating it is sensing the overall pessimism with the recent ideas. Especially in regards to pedestrian improvements.

At least someone is doing sometihng to make downtown a little bit more walkable. The Cultural Trail will connect in with this too.

Personally, I dont see how we lose with this. Until it is done, who can say, but the renderings look pretty good. To that end, maybe that is where the $12.5 million went. ;)

Downtown is already walkable. The vast majority of the rest of Marion County, where the other 99% of the population lives, is not. That's my objection.

I agree with you 100%. I dont have sidewalks on my street. It directly affects me and my wife's decision to get out and walk. We have a newborn child so getting out and pushing the stroller through the neighborhood bares the decision of walking on the street where cars zoom down our street, or getting in our car and driving somewhere that DOES have sidewalks, or the monon, to do it. I would love to get sidewalks on our street, but there is really no outlet to lobby for this... at least not one where it will get much merit.

But when I see other places getting good walkable areas, it doesnt mean that my jealousy is going to overcome the fact that something good is happening. Yeah, it would be nice to get money elsewhere to do it, but where do you get it?

Indianapolis #24 on list of FATTEST cities in USA = grade D-. http://health.msn.com/weight-loss/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100257787&gt1=31036

Anyone up for a burger and a beer? haha
Anchorage has an excuse for being #35 on that list, everyone else below #50 should be ashamed. :lol:

I find it ironic that the City is investing millions in attempting to create better pedestrian environments that already work very well for pedestrians, while at the same time planning to rebuild West 38th Street from I-65 to High School Road, which will include construction of sidewalks immediately adjacent to high-speed traffic. What's really disappointing is that, although many portions of this corridor don't currently have sidewalks, many portions do, and most of those sidewalks are separated from the street by a landscape strip. The new sidewalks will place pedestrians an arms length from fast-moving cars, and thus, they will only be used by people who have no other choice. The project will not in any way encourage pedestrian traffic.

Separating sidewalks from moving traffic (unless it's going very slow like on the Circle) is a very basic principle of street design. Unfortunately, the people who design all the City's projects, outside of downtown, probably don't walk anywhere except between a building and a parking lot. These certainly are not the same people who are developing downtown projects like the Cultural Trail or this Georgia Street project. The Georgia Street money could be better used elsewhere, but at least the project will likely be designed to provide a better place for people. The difference is that the Cultural Trail and the Georgia Street project are designed by people other than the City's Department of Public Works. It would be nice if they could show some interest in building a better city in the 395 or so square miles that aren't downtown.

Amen. When both 86th and 38th (east of White River) were rebuilt, the sidewalks were set back some from the curb in most places. I don't know why we're reverting to the mid-town Meridian Street model everywhere else. I hate walking where an IndyGo bus could whack my head with its mirror while pulling into or away from a stop.

I was not at the meeting last night, but apparently there was another meeting before IHPC concerning the latest plans for The Trailside on mass ave.

I havent seen the newest design changes, but one person says it is still ugly. LOL At least they wont need a variance due to the parking garage being underground now.

I was not at the meeting last night, but apparently there was another meeting before IHPC concerning the latest plans for The Trailside on mass ave.

I havent seen the newest design changes, but one person says it is still ugly. LOL At least they wont need a variance due to the parking garage being underground now.

As of the meeting last night... May 5, 2009
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S-NLwoRlLhI/AAAAAAAAEkQ/Zl0m2lqdwf4/s640/photo.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S-NLxGH8bpI/AAAAAAAAElY/qILtZMDezxA/s640/photo%202.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S-NLxOCTiZI/AAAAAAAAElg/YpZAQre-tlA/s640/photo%203.jpg


Sorry about the low quality... I just got to snap some shots with my phone.

^^ I was out of town for a week and missed the story in the IBJ about the garage. Glad to see that this will happen now - although it it quite ugly. (Of course, it wouldn't have hurt the look of the design if they had shown it in a little more livelier picture - with some future businesses in the first floor storefronts, for example -- maybe some awnings? and maybe a few people(?). Looks really dead with simple, empty, fluorescent lit spaces throughout the entire thing. Anyway, I didn't see that anyone had posted the story - so --(unless I just missed it while browsing through the last few pages of this thread) here is a link to the story. It still pisses me off that the property owners across the street who don't have any of their own parking, were opposed to this because it didn't have enough parking. Pretty annoying.

http://www.ibj.com/article?articleId=19711

I'll have to disagree with you Garfield. :-) Trailside at Mass Ave is not an ugly building.

Unremarkable and plain-jane perhaps, but it's certainly not ugly. It has tasteful, simple proportions and looks like the little brother of 707 North College, which a lot of us labeled as decent infill.

--

Does anyone else see the corrugated surface around the balconies, especially on the right of the image?

The quick addition of the parking garage was welcome news. This is a great win for the east end of Mass Ave and for the whole Regional Center.

It still pisses me off that the property owners across the street who don't have any of their own parking, were opposed to this because it didn't have enough parking. Pretty annoying.


Yeah, easy to say when its not your business that is jeopardized by a CDC that is more interested in making money than doing what is right for the community they are operating in.

So long as Trailside doesn't look like the back-ass of 3 Mass Ave I will be OK

I'll have to disagree with you Garfield. :-) Trailside at Mass Ave is not an ugly building.

Unremarkable and plain-jane perhaps, but it's certainly not ugly. It has tasteful, simple proportions and looks like the little brother of 707 North College, which a lot of us labeled as decent infill.

--

Does anyone else see the corrugated surface around the balconies, especially on the right of the image?

The quick addition of the parking garage was welcome news. This is a great win for the east end of Mass Ave and for the whole Regional Center.


The form and massing looks very much like a 1960's Holiday Inn, right down to the wall-pak lights at the back balcony corners (which conjure a vision of the prototypical Holiday Inn outdoor staircases).

Ablerock, for a "too much of a good thing" view of the metal siding, drive down Brookville Rd. past Navistar to see the mid-century modern office-warehouse building that's been converted to self-storage, done up in pale green and metal. On large surfaces the metal siding looks to me like the steel roll-up doors used in big-city ghetto shops. I can't tell from the rendering if this gets to that level.

I liked the previous two iterations, which made greater use of fiber-cement sheet siding (which allows the use of color, and which could be changed as color fashions change) and which had the continuous balcony above the shops.

But apparently fiber-cement has seen its day and the metal is the new big thing in progressive architecture.

The design seems fine to me. Moving parking to the basement is a great idea, but I'm not so keen on the reduction in retail space from 24k to 10.5k sq.ft. in order to move the community and office space from the basement to the first floor. They're lopping off 56% of the retail space! Instead, couldn't they have taken out a couple apartments and moved the community and office space to the second floor? You should have uses that depend on foot traffic at ground level. Community and office space do not depend on foot traffic, which is why the original design had them in the basement.

Yeah, easy to say when its not your business that is jeopardized by a CDC that is more interested in making money than doing what is right for the community they are operating in.

Eddie, you're really overplaying a losing hand here. CDCs reinvest their "profit" to subsidize the next project, or they use it to finance (not exactly high-paying) jobs for staff as well as community greenspaces, art and events. Riley in particular has a big public-art program.

Part of what makes city housing expensive is land for parking; a parking space requires a minimum of 300-400 square feet when access and buffers are included. At $25 a square foot, low for downtown land, that's $7500-10,000 just for the land...and that doesn't count drainage, paving, or landscaping expense. Figure at least $10-12K of capital investment per parking space, which bumps up your unit cost. Parking is the easiest cost to cut without cheapening the structure and interior finishes, especially when the development is likely to attract people who could live carless.

What Riley is doing is absolutely right for the area. It's just wrong for one neighboring property owner whose property doesn't have its own parking, and who apparently doesn't want to buy or lease parking nearby (as Scholars Inn did) to support his building.

You seem to be supporting the idea that only upper-income people should be allowed to live and work and park their cars on Mass Ave. Remember, there are more store and restaurant WORKERS than OWNERS.

Part of what makes city housing expensive is land for parking; a parking space requires a minimum of 300-400 square feet when access and buffers are included. At $25 a square foot, low for downtown land, that's $7500-10,000 just for the land...and that doesn't count drainage, paving, or landscaping expense. Figure at least $10-12K of capital investment per parking space, which bumps up your unit cost. Parking is the easiest cost to cut without cheapening the structure and interior finishes, especially when the development is likely to attract people who could live carless.



You seem to be supporting the idea that only upper-income people should be allowed to live and work and park their cars on Mass Ave. Remember, there are more store and restaurant WORKERS than OWNERS.

parking being expensive is my point exactly. The CDC's role should be to take blighted buildings that have no parking, that private developers will never touch, and turn them into an asset.


It has nothing to do with income, so please stick to the facts. I was on the side that argued to get a low income development to NOT set their tennants up for failure and towing fees/tickets by pushing the garage issue. They now will have something 100% better than paying for metered parking... And they will still be able to park anywhere "upper-income" people can park. This was a win win for everyone.

I am definitely pro CDC, do not mistake that. Riley just was underhanded on this development. They got called out by the community and now they are doing the right thing for the trailside project residents and the neighborhood they are coming into.

Good news for NW side of CBD:

From the Indianapolis Business Journal:

"Sahm's to open Tavern in Historic Gibson Building ---

Homegrown restaurant chain Sahm's plans to open a new tavern and restaurant in downtown's Gibson Building. Sahm's Tavern will take about 3,600 square feet on the first-floor southeast corner of the 1916 building, which has OneAmerica and ExactTarget as its anchor office tenants. Meanwhile, Cincinnati-based First Financial Bank is taking the first-floor southwest corner. A large space fronting Michigan Street still is available. OneAmerica spent more than $10 million renovating the former car manufacturing facility southeast of Capital Avenue and Michigan Street. The Sahm's plans call for a 60-seat tavern and 50-seat cafe with outdoor seating on both sides, said Ed Sahm, CEO of Sahm's Companies. It is scheduled to open in August. Building out the space will cost about $500,000. Sahm's earlier this year opened a new restaurant and catering facility about a block away, in the 38-story OneAmerica Tower. Sahm's at The Tower has more than 300 seats and replaced an old location on the second floor of M&I Plaza."

- This is a good start for filling the first floor of this renovated five story building. Looks like the North / Northwest side of the first floor still needs to be filled. The building is one block east of the Cosmopolitan and across the street (to the south) of the large student-focused housing project that was discussed a year or two ago (anyone hear anything about that project lately? - along Capitol, just north of Michigan?) If the housing project on Capitol gets resurrected (about 300 or so units, I believe, in a new six story building) - I think we would be getting close to having enough nearby housing to open a mid sized grocery on the west side of downtown. I always thought the space in the NW corner of the Gibson building would be excellent for a neighborhood grocery of some type. It has nice high ceilings -- kind of looks perfect for a Whole Foods or something like that.

parking being expensive is my point exactly. The CDC's role should be to take blighted buildings that have no parking, that private developers will never touch, and turn them into an asset.


Urbanism 101: let's get people to live and work downtown so we don't need to keep knocking down buildings and replacing them with parking. Structured parking is even more expensive than surface parking.

It should not be any CDC's job to "find parking" for everyone in a neighborhood. In fact, it should be CDCs job to encourage LESS surface parking (by cooperative parking arrangements like the one Riley and Center Twp. tried to work out).

The ONLY reason Riley was able to adapt the plan is that they initially planned a basement (office space), which they converted to parking. In this case (only), the "parking structure" was free.

There is nothing underhanded about trying to under-park new development downtown when a significant number of residents might consider (or definitely will be) going carless, or not feel it's critical to have their own parking space. It's urbanism.

How many parking spaces does Riley provide free to tenants at the Rink-Savoy and The Davlan? Hint: less than Trailside.

Have you ever been to Lincoln Park (Chicago) to visit a friend? How long did it take you to find parking? Does the difficulty of parking stop people from living in or visiting Lincoln Park?

:bash: Rant over.

Have you ever been to Lincoln Park (Chicago) to visit a friend? How long did it take you to find parking? Does the difficulty of parking stop people from living in or visiting Lincoln Park?



Years ago before I met my wife, I visited a friend in Chicago and stayed in a Hostel in LP. I had my friend make a complex arrangement to find a parking spot about 6 blocks away from where I was staying...it was "wink wink/nod nod" sort of thing...I had to feign that I was staying at her friend's apartment and have them park my car for me (even though I'd never met that friend of a friend in my life). Good times...thank goodness for Megabus (http://us.megabus.com/routemap.aspx).

Chris you are missing eddie's point about the dirty underhanded way in which this deal was done. I dont think any of us would disagree with your points about surface parking. We all bitch about it daily.

The way that the developers handled this was shady and underhanded. If you talk to any of the east end tennants, they will tell you how the developers logged insight from the business owners, and then spun it in a light to make it look favorable to them. On tope of the that, the center township was a bit deceptive about the number of people that they employ in the building.

It wasnt handled in a gentleman's handshake kind of way that you would hope (or expect) something in good faith to take place.

So anyway ---- Its great to see that this new four story apartment building with first floor retail on Mass Ave is going to happen :) I'll agree to change my original comment that the building is "ugly" to say that it is "plain jane", as someone else suggested. That's a better description.

I think overall it is a good thing - to add good density that doesn't necessarily stand out - but just fits in well with a growing urban core of 3 - 6 story mixed use buildings. (You want to have your "standout" structures too - but they can't all be architecturally dazzling.)

Speaking of these types of infill residential projects -- the apartments being built at Capitol and St. Clair are going up quickly. That is another development in the NW part of downtown that will increase the attractiveness for filling in the first floor space at the Gibson Building, mentioned above.

Urbanism 101: let's get people to live and work downtown so we don't need to keep knocking down buildings and replacing them with parking. Structured parking is even more expensive than surface parking.

It should not be any CDC's job to "find parking" for everyone in a neighborhood. In fact, it should be CDCs job to encourage LESS surface parking (by cooperative parking arrangements like the one Riley and Center Twp. tried to work out).

The ONLY reason Riley was able to adapt the plan is that they initially planned a basement (office space), which they converted to parking. In this case (only), the "parking structure" was free.

There is nothing underhanded about trying to under-park new development downtown when a significant number of residents might consider (or definitely will be) going carless, or not feel it's critical to have their own parking space. It's urbanism.

How many parking spaces does Riley provide free to tenants at the Rink-Savoy and The Davlan? Hint: less than Trailside.

Have you ever been to Lincoln Park (Chicago) to visit a friend? How long did it take you to find parking? Does the difficulty of parking stop people from living in or visiting Lincoln Park?

:bash: Rant over.

davlan and rink were EXISTING with no parking.

I agree with you 100%. I dont have sidewalks on my street. It directly affects me and my wife's decision to get out and walk. We have a newborn child so getting out and pushing the stroller through the neighborhood bares the decision of walking on the street where cars zoom down our street, or getting in our car and driving somewhere that DOES have sidewalks, or the monon, to do it. I would love to get sidewalks on our street, but there is really no outlet to lobby for this... at least not one where it will get much merit.

But when I see other places getting good walkable areas, it doesnt mean that my jealousy is going to overcome the fact that something good is happening. Yeah, it would be nice to get money elsewhere to do it, but where do you get it?

Probably a lot of the same places they're getting the money to do these projects. I'm not an expert on the matter, but can't a federal Transportation Enhancement grant be used to add sidewalks where they don't exist? If not, I'd opine that the rules ought to be changed. It says a lot about our priorities if we're applying for grants to make Georgia Street more walkable, when you can't even walk in your own neighborhood.

Amen. When both 86th and 38th (east of White River) were rebuilt, the sidewalks were set back some from the curb in most places. I don't know why we're reverting to the mid-town Meridian Street model everywhere else. I hate walking where an IndyGo bus could whack my head with its mirror while pulling into or away from a stop.

I would suspect that it's because, despite minor complaints on forums like this, we as the electorate don't hold our local government accountable for providing what most of us need ahead of what a few of us want.

I've complained to the City about many such projects, including this upcoming one on W. 38th Street, but to no avail. Could I do more? Sure. But, quite frankly the complaints, no matter how valid or consistently delivered, of one or two people probably aren't going to change much. So, I ask my fellow citizens to call or write the Mayor's Office and ask Mayor Ballard to improve this project and others throughout the City so that we can truly become a world class city that provides a safe and attractive environment in which to walk. Specifically, please ask that these new sidewalks be buffered from the street by a landscape strip. It only takes a minute or two to click here and contact the Mayor: http://www.indy.gov/eGov/Mayor/Pages/contact.aspx

Thanks everyone.

No offense, Curt and Eddie, but what evidence has been presented that Riley was 'dirty' or 'underhanded'? I don't mean to imply that the procedure WAS clean or that I don't believe you, but you haven't proven anything by simply saying it was so.

I have to agree....the Trailside development is unexciting. It seems Indy just keeps getting more and more of these types of development. The density is nice and the location is nice, but the design is just uninspired. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel the number of quality architecture firms in Indianapolis is seriously lacking?

This looks like an improvement from the original renderings although it's difficult to see what materials are being used.

As of the meeting last night... May 5, 2009

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S-NLwoRlLhI/AAAAAAAAEkQ/Zl0m2lqdwf4/s640/photo.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S-NLxGH8bpI/AAAAAAAAElY/qILtZMDezxA/s640/photo%202.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S-NLxOCTiZI/AAAAAAAAElg/YpZAQre-tlA/s640/photo%203.jpg


Sorry about the low quality... I just got to snap some shots with my phone.

No offense, Curt and Eddie, but what evidence has been presented that Riley was 'dirty' or 'underhanded'? I don't mean to imply that the procedure WAS clean or that I don't believe you, but you haven't proven anything by simply saying it was so.

There are things that can be pointed to. Trailside circulated a petition/letter of support for re-striping davidson and metering in front of Coca Cola. All of the east end merchants signed it. Then during the April IHPC hearing they tried to use that signed letter as evidence of community support for the trailside development without proper parking. (This was also after the remonstrator procedurally could not rebut the intent of the document)

Trailside was originally proposed to the neighborhood as a mixed development with market rate and low income, retail on the first floor, community space, and no parking variance. They then changed to 100% low income which no one had objections to. Then they took away the parking garage. Everyone opposed this. Then when the east end would not bend, Trailside threatened to get rid of the retail on the bottom floor. They know that their building has no chance of approval on mass without retail, and that their financing, more than likely, depends on the cash flow from the retail. They were just trying, through dirty tactics, to get the merchants to roll over.

They commissioned a parking study that was done after mass ave was closed to inbound traffic for the trail and off peak parking times.

Just to name a few. And there is also personal impression. You know when someone is acting with integrity or if they were just trying to get what they want at the cost of being slimy.

Just a thought... and I'd be curious as to what other peoples thoughts would be for discussion purposes. What if a developer could get ahold of those historic Coca-Cola buildings, keep the art deco facades, but turn that complex into a retail center that would contain suburban type chains such as a Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, and Petsmart. It looks as though there could be enough space. There seems as though there would be plenty of parking and it could also spur more walking on the north end of Mass Ave. It would also bring a much needed Target to the downtown area, near Northside and near Eastside (Holy Cross) areas. With the new Trailside Development, 3 Mass, 429 on the Park, and other downtown condos it seems like that location would be prime for those kinds of suburban stores. You could still leave the northeast corner of College and Mass Ave for another Beliouney type apartment or condo building infill. Just a thought. Comments?

Dont know if anyone else got out in the rain on First Friday, but since my wife curates the artspace at the Anthenaeum now, I was and snapped these before the rain started. In case you didnt know, KIB directed the construction. I was pleasantly surprised to run into a worker who ironically enough happened to be forum post thehoss257 working on cleaning up. Nice to meet you BTW :)

Onto the photos
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4595345367_ae7e4d1fbf.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4595343897_b3e3d10314.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1332/4595342997_dd6796de2e.jpg

Dont know if anyone else got out in the rain on First Friday, but since my wife curates the artspace at the Athenaeum now, I was and snapped these before the rain started. In case you didnt know, KIB directed the construction. I was pleasantly surprised to run into a worker who ironically enough happened to be forum post thehoss257 working on cleaning up. Nice to meet you BTW :)

I was inside having a beer. Probably walked right past y'all. :lol:

We all need name tags. LOL I was on the canal all day Sunday too and probably walked past CorrND too.

;)

I noticed when I ran the Mini-Marathon on Saturday that a block or so of Speedway's Main St. streetscape project was about finished. I took some snaps and put up a flickr set:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/urbanophile/sets/72157624033086932/

A couple of samples:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4595252793_77b3451468.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4595246677_e11d57582f.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1062/4595249663_73d0475a07.jpg

I thought they did a really nice job myself.

There are things that can be pointed to. Trailside circulated a petition/letter of support for re-striping davidson and metering in front of Coca Cola. All of the east end merchants signed it. Then during the April IHPC hearing they tried to use that signed letter as evidence of community support for the trailside development without proper parking. (This was also after the remonstrator procedurally could not rebut the intent of the document)

Trailside was originally proposed to the neighborhood as a mixed development with market rate and low income, retail on the first floor, community space, and no parking variance. They then changed to 100% low income which no one had objections to. Then they took away the parking garage. Everyone opposed this. Then when the east end would not bend, Trailside threatened to get rid of the retail on the bottom floor. They know that their building has no chance of approval on mass without retail, and that their financing, more than likely, depends on the cash flow from the retail. They were just trying, through dirty tactics, to get the merchants to roll over.

They commissioned a parking study that was done after mass ave was closed to inbound traffic for the trail and off peak parking times.

Just to name a few. And there is also personal impression. You know when someone is acting with integrity or if they were just trying to get what they want at the cost of being slimy.

It seems Riley should have done a better job communicating with the business owners and trying to get their buy-in, but I also think that some of the supposedly under-handed tactics you cite had perfectly innocent and legitimate explanations. For example, I believe it was reported in the news that the project was changed from a mixed-income to low-income project to fully take advantage of tax credit financing, I don't think there was any intent to deceive anyone as to the nature of the project--a project is dead-on-arrival if it cannot get financing, so a change of plans had to be made.

At the end of the day, Riley has its agenda and the business owners have their agenda. It doesn't mean there isn't room for compromise, and in fact, a compromise (of sorts) was reached. It is perfectly normal for each side to try to ensure its own interests are best served. I have never heard anyone accuse Riley of being "slimy." In fact, they have a reputation for doing good things for the community. It just so happens that in this situation they had different interests than some of the business owners in the area.

In any event, I am glad a solution was reached and the project can move forward.

We all need name tags. LOL I was on the canal all day Sunday too and probably walked past CorrND too.

;)
You will often see my very distinctive trio of mother, father and stroller on Sundays on the canal. Not this weekend, though -- I was out of town.

I'll have to whip out my Dork Lord (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=127fd9c80235a897&mt=application%2Fpdf&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F%3Fui%3D2%26ik%3Dbfc79f2144%26view%3Datt%26th%3D127fd9c80235a897%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26realattid%3D0.1%26zw&sig=AHIEtbTHdY8SLoTuCo3Ian6m7u8zpnKDRw) shirt when I walk on the canal so I'm identifiable.

And I just need to throw out a hip-hip-HORRAY! that St. Clair is finally reopened across the canal. Our long, local transportation nightmare is over, and just in time for Gardens of Canal Court to install new gates at the entrances to the complex. I love living near the canal but I need to get out of this complex.

In any event, I am glad a solution was reached and the project can move forward.

Agreed! I definitely still appreciate Riley and what they do for our city. I'm done voicing my frustration.

Way to Multi-task Arenn! Yes - the speedway streetscape looks good. Great local branding style on the street signs and sewer covers. Looking forward to the 16th Street portions of the project getting started - (and finished) so the area and its attractions can start bringing more people in to visit -- and get a few of those vacant spots filled in on Main Street.

You probably saw this, but it just now went online:

Indy Unbuckles the Rust Belt
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=20105160305

It's about the Brookings study. A few things stood out for me.

- From 2000-2008, the under 18 population in Indy metro grew by 12%, compared with only 2.5% nationally. That's huge and shows bigtime demographic health.

- Indy metro's educational attainment (adults with bachelors or higher) grew from 26.5% to 32% - that's #4 in the top 100 metro areas.

- Indianapolis also had the sixth highest increase in America in its Latino and Asian population growth too (that's not in the article though)

- Median household income declined by 8.4%. That's terrible, no two ways about it.

Indy is now grouped as "New Heartland", along with places like Charlotte and Portland, not the Industrial Core old school rust belt. Also in the Midwest in this group among large metros are Columbus, Kansas City, and Minneapolis-St. Paul

Thanks Aaron. I had seen the brookings news yesterday talking about people moving into the city, but the Indy specific stuff is rgeat.

Off topic, but cincy city council voted to approve $64 million in bonds for the streetcar there. Huge...
http://urban-out.com/2010/05/11/cincinnati-takes-an-important-step-in-the-great-streetcar-debate/

^^ Very interesting findings that you pulled from the Brookings Study Arenn. That drop in household income is significant and obviously not good. I wonder how much of that might have to do with the growth in distribution / warehousing type jobs. That could also relate to the growth in Latino population. There are huge numbers of Latinos who work in the distribution / warehousing facilities all around the region - but particularly out west of the airport and in places NW (Park 100) and south. I wonder if there is a correlation between large numbers of Latinos and Asians (India) moving here and taking warehousing and trucking jobs that don't pay as high as the average job - thus the drop in average income. That could be part of the answer - but I'm sure there are other factors that are also contributing to the decline in average income.

The other numbers you pointed out are definitely good though. I posted the full story as a thread on the Midwest and Plains board a few days ago. Only one response so far. Arenn: If you wanted to post your thoughts from above on that thread it might help get some other posters from other Midwest cities to add comments about their cities and to talk about what is going on in other parts of the Midwest (and beyond).

I'll look for the thread.

Ed Glaeser has a theory that the issue with inner cities is that as they were abandoned the housing supply didn't contract. This caused prices to plunge, as we've seen in central Indy. Per Glaeser, this actually attracts poor people to your city from elsewhere.

Richard Longworth makes a similar argument about low cost regions generally. In his view, if you are a dirt cheap place to live and do business, you'll attract companies that care principally about costs and these are low wage jobs. As the cheapest housing market in America and one of the cheapest places to do business, Indy is a great place to put low end, low paying jobs, which could affect household income. (Longworth likes to note the increasing concentration of high value activities in expensive cores, by contrast). However, Indy's GDP per capita is very strong (beating Chicago even). That's an experimental metric for metros, but even so, it seems to suggest output is high even if income is low.

There are many other potential factors. For example, the increase in young people could mean Indy had more women drop out of the workforce to care for young children, which would affect household income. There's wages, transfer payments, investment income, etc. so where does it all break down? A more detailed study is warranted.

Somebody just send me an alert on this. INDOT changed the final design of the I-465/Sam Jones interchange to a diamond from a partial cloverleaf. This means there will no longer be a freeway connection from I-465 to I-70 via Sam Jones. To take that route will mean going through a stoplight. If you want a non-stop connection it will have to be via a loop ramp at I-70.

http://www.in.gov/indot/div/projects/accelerate465/design/airportexp.html

Indy is now grouped as "New Heartland"...

How long has that label been around? Hadn't heard it before. I like it.

The study was just released.

Somebody just send me an alert on this. INDOT changed the final design of the I-465/Sam Jones interchange to a diamond from a partial cloverleaf. This means there will no longer be a freeway connection from I-465 to I-70 via Sam Jones. To take that route will mean going through a stoplight. If you want a non-stop connection it will have to be via a loop ramp at I-70.

http://www.in.gov/indot/div/projects/accelerate465/design/airportexp.html

Hmm...

Is that purely a money-saving move, or are there functional considerations? (I use that Sam Jones exit quite a bit, since the 'rents live in Speedway.)

Hmm...

Is that purely a money-saving move, or are there functional considerations? (I use that Sam Jones exit quite a bit, since the 'rents live in Speedway.)

Hmm. It seems strange to convert an existing expressway-to-expressway connection to a stoplight connection. My in-laws live in Avon, and my typical route to downtown involves Morris to High School to Washington, hopping on 465 until the Sam Jones exit (this is where the stoplight will come in) and taking Sam Jones to I-70. This seems to be a pretty common commuting route, and it seems like an intentional effort to choke traffic at that point, which I suppose may divert traffic to the surface streets (Washington and Rockville) and to I-70. I can't see the benefit if it isn't cost-related. It's not as if Sam Jones is a pedestrian-oriented route, and it does add a couple of miles to the trip to go down to I-70.

Hmm. It seems strange to convert an existing expressway-to-expressway connection to a stoplight connection. My in-laws live in Avon, and my typical route to downtown involves Morris to High School to Washington, hopping on 465 until the Sam Jones exit (this is where the stoplight will come in) and taking Sam Jones to I-70. This seems to be a pretty common commuting route, and it seems like an intentional effort to choke traffic at that point, which I suppose may divert traffic to the surface streets (Washington and Rockville) and to I-70. I can't see the benefit if it isn't cost-related. It's not as if Sam Jones is a pedestrian-oriented route, and it does add a couple of miles to the trip to go down to I-70.

INDOT did the same thing on the east side when they reconfigured the mess at I-74/I-465/Southeastern/Shadeland/Brookville. The leg of Shadeland south of Washington played a bypass/shortcut role similar to the Sam Jones.

It used to be possible to enter southbound Shadeland from Brookville and connect to I-465 and I-74, and to exit 465 at northbound Shadeland and jump off at Brookville. Now one must drive a mile further east to a re-configured I-465/Brookville/US52 interchange to get on southbound 465, and anyone exiting onto northbound Shadeland can't get off at Brookville and must go north to English.

Way to Multi-task Arenn! Yes - the speedway streetscape looks good. Great local branding style on the street signs and sewer covers. Looking forward to the 16th Street portions of the project getting started - (and finished) so the area and its attractions can start bringing more people in to visit -- and get a few of those vacant spots filled in on Main Street.

I love the street signs!!!

You probably saw this, but it just now went online:

Indy Unbuckles the Rust Belt
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=20105160305

It's about the Brookings study. A few things stood out for me.

- From 2000-2008, the under 18 population in Indy metro grew by 12%, compared with only 2.5% nationally. That's huge and shows bigtime demographic health.

- Indy metro's educational attainment (adults with bachelors or higher) grew from 26.5% to 32% - that's #4 in the top 100 metro areas.

- Indianapolis also had the sixth highest increase in America in its Latino and Asian population growth too (that's not in the article though)

- Median household income declined by 8.4%. That's terrible, no two ways about it.

Indy is now grouped as "New Heartland", along with places like Charlotte and Portland, not the Industrial Core old school rust belt. Also in the Midwest in this group among large metros are Columbus, Kansas City, and Minneapolis-St. Paul


Shhh....

Industrial Core: Brookings characterizes these areas as the most "demographically disadvantaged" of the metro areas.
» Examples: Cleveland; Dayton, Ohio; Detroit; Louisville, Ky.; Memphis, Tenn.; and Providence, R.I.

^^ Very interesting findings that you pulled from the Brookings Study Arenn. That drop in household income is significant and obviously not good. I wonder how much of that might have to do with the growth in distribution / warehousing type jobs. That could also relate to the growth in Latino population. There are huge numbers of Latinos who work in the distribution / warehousing facilities all around the region - but particularly out west of the airport and in places NW (Park 100) and south. I wonder if there is a correlation between large numbers of Latinos and Asians (India) moving here and taking warehousing and trucking jobs that don't pay as high as the average job - thus the drop in average income. That could be part of the answer - but I'm sure there are other factors that are also contributing to the decline in average income.

The other numbers you pointed out are definitely good though. I posted the full story as a thread on the Midwest and Plains board a few days ago. Only one response so far. Arenn: If you wanted to post your thoughts from above on that thread it might help get some other posters from other Midwest cities to add comments about their cities and to talk about what is going on in other parts of the Midwest (and beyond).

Simple math: we've been adding warehouse/distribution jobs to replace the manufacturing, sales, R&D, engineering, and plant-management jobs that disappeared over the past 30 years at Western Electric, Chrysler Shadeland, Chrysler Foundry, RCA Sherman Drive, RCA Records, RCA Rockville Rd., Ford, Jenn-Air, Citizens Coke, Eli Lilly and Navistar.

Shhh....

Industrial Core: Brookings characterizes these areas as the most "demographically disadvantaged" of the metro areas.
» Examples: Cleveland; Dayton, Ohio; Detroit; Louisville, Ky.; Memphis, Tenn.; and Providence, R.I.

Can't wait for The Urbanophile's blog post highlighting those cities as "demographically disadvantaged". :lol:

Interesting data. Doesn't it seem like a strange discrepancy for Indy to have a 5.5% increase in bachelor's degree attainment at the same time that household income dropped by 8.4%?

Graphic from the Columbus Dispatch:

http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2010/05/09/diversity_large.jpg

» Examples: Cleveland; Dayton, Ohio; Detroit; Louisville, Ky.; Memphis, Tenn.; and Providence, R.I.
>
>
Can't wait for The Urbanophile's blog post highlighting those cities as "demographically disadvantaged". :lol:

It really surprises me to see Louisville on that list; as is often the case, it doesn't quite fit as a prototypical Rust Belt region nor as a southern boomtown. At any rate, I'd say it's demographic indicators are far less extreme than the other cities on that list.

Providence is another one that is hard to pin down--certainly not a fast growing region, but it still falls completely within the Boston sphere of influence. However, Rhode Island as a whole has not been able to capture the contingent seeking a more affordable bedroom community the same way New Hampshire has--largely because Rhode Island isn't that much more affordable.

The design seems fine to me. Moving parking to the basement is a great idea, but I'm not so keen on the reduction in retail space from 24k to 10.5k sq.ft. in order to move the community and office space from the basement to the first floor. They're lopping off 56% of the retail space! Instead, couldn't they have taken out a couple apartments and moved the community and office space to the second floor? You should have uses that depend on foot traffic at ground level. Community and office space do not depend on foot traffic, which is why the original design had them in the basement.

Interesting observation CorrND.

Because this is an affordable housing development, it operates under somewhat different market prerogatives. But not that different. No developer would ever cut back on housing units to build community space when the former is a the principal source of NOI. It's a shame to see so much retail space get axed, but my guess is the developer has a far greater confidence in consistently leasing out the residences than in leasing the retail. There's always the consideration that at some point these units could become market rate as well, and it's possible that, should retail demand increase, it would be relatively easy to convert office/community uses to accommodate new storefronts. Property management for a complex can easily be located off-site. That's just my guess.

Wow...Bush Stadium to become apartments (http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=12465385)?

Wow...Bush Stadium to become apartments (http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=12465385)?

I love this idea!

I dig it too. Will be interesting to see how they would incorporate the field.

BTW, I walked through Bush Stadium last year. It was in bad shape, as you can imagine. I remember one of the overhead signs dangling by a single cord as if out of a movie. But it was still cool to be there.

The Busch stadium idea is wonderful. I still wish that Union Station could become something happening again. Then again alot of buildings like the Wholesale Market area and so on may happen if population soars in the future.

To me it seems pretty amazing and bizarrely out of place to see Indy ranked so high on both the Asian and Latino percentage increases in population (from the Columbus Dispatch article). Its great -- but I'm just not used to this here in the heart of the Midwest. I realize that Indy isn't starting from as high of a number as a lot of other cities -- but still -- only three cities made it in the top ten on both lists - and Indy's combined percentage increase (Latino percentage + Asian percentage) was more than the combined totals for each of the other two cities: (Atlanta and Columbus, OH).

Its going to be real interesting to see the 2010 "real" census updates when they come out in a year or two. In 2000, I remember lots of people saying the Hispanic population in Indy was undercounted. Official counts came in at around 45,000 - 50,000 or so (from what I remember) - but people were saying the actual number was likely to be closer to 100,000 or so. Some of those uncouted numbers may have been for un-official residents that didn't want to have the Census bureau tracking them - but others may have been true residents that just ended up staying away from the US Census officials when they came by. Anyway -- it'll be interesting to see what the count is this time. If there really has been a 100% increase between 2000 and 2008 like the article said - will that mean a 100% increase over the 45,000 number or over a higher number like 80,000 or 90,000? I'd be surprised to find that there are over 160,000 Hispanics in the region -- but maybe that's the case. We'll see.

If there really has been a 100% increase between 2000 and 2008 like the article said - will that mean a 100% increase over the 45,000 number or over a higher number like 80,000 or 90,000?

The valid comparison would be between actual Census counts. So whatever number is found, it will be compared with the Y2K base of ~45,000. It would not be hard to believe a 100% increase on that base.

Personally, I hate "rankings" that consist of comparing percentage changes. Here's why:

If a small town of 200 has one minority household (two people) in the 2000 Census, and two households (four people) in 2010, that's a 100% increase and it looks like "diversity" is really happening. But the actual change is a change from 99% white to 98%...not really a substantive change in the community's diversity at all.

In 2000, Indianapolis' measured Hispanic population was about 6%, below the national percentage. If it doubles to 12% in 2010, then Indy is a lot closer to "looks like America", and can honestly claim to be truly diverse.

Most Censuses and population counts that I've seen show Indy's African American and Hispanic populations at overall higher percentages of the population than Columbus, though our Asian population is lower. I don't know what race the Somali immigrant population of Columbus would consider itself.

I love the street signs!!!

Do the Speedway signs remind anyone else of the style used for the signage in Plainfield? Both are slick and corporate. These days, those adjectives often come off as pejorative, but I don't mean them that way--I like the look as well. It seems right for Speedway, just as Plainfield seemed appropriate for a city with a booming logistics industry. Hopefully I am not the only one who is relieved that they didn't opt for yet another vintage, "nostalgia"-filled design, which has been done to death.

CDC Guy: "Personally, I hate "rankings" that consist of comparing percentage changes. Here's why:
"If a small town of 200 has one minority household (two people) in the 2000 Census, and two households (four people) in 2010, that's a 100% increase and it looks like "diversity" is really happening. But the actual change is a change from 99% white to 98%...not really a substantive change in the community's diversity at all."

Right^^ I agree with you on that -- and that is why I mentioned that Indianapolis is likely starting from a lower number of Latino and Hispanics than many cities in the comparison. However -- the list that we are in is for the top 100 metros -- so we're not talking about Gnawbone, IN seeing its 7 Hispanics grow to 14. Of the Metros at the top of the list, only Lakeland and Cape Coral are relatively small, roughly 300,000 and 700,000, respectively. I know what you're saying, and agree that - particularly for the Asian population, Indianapolis didn't have a high number to start with --- but still, the fact that we are toward the top of the list and so many other large cities are not says something. I think a big chunk of the growth in the Asian population may have to do with the many Asian - Indians settling on the south side and taking jobs in the trucking industry. I definitely see large numbers of native Indians shopping when I go to the Meijer on the South Side.

I love the fact that we are seeing such a large increase in our Asian population. I have been thinking that Indy is ready to be the next "it" place for foreign-born residents (not just hispanic). Our central location, easy of access, job growth and low-cost of living should be very desireable for immigrants!

I love this idea!

Thanks! ;-) It was mine! 2 years ago!

http://www.ibj.com/blog/article?articleId=1843

My response to an ibj post about bush

"Bush Stadium would be the perfect place to build a sports-lovers paradise. A place to live and a place to play.

Imagine several stories of condos with balconies overlooking the field from behind the outfield wall. How cool would it be to wake up in the morning and have a cup of coffee looking out over a beautifully manicured baseball diamond while the sun rises over first base?

One could potentially convert parts of the original building into racquet ball courts, basketball courts, exercise facilities, apparel shops, etc., The parking lot could be built out and used for indoor tennis courts, an indoor running track, an olympic pool, etc. Parking would be underground.

White River is right there, some sort of dock or fishing facility could be built (if the river were cleaned up). There's potential for a micro golf course along the river. The soccer fields across the street could be integrated into the design, perhaps via skywalk. Facilities for every major sport could be incorporated into a giant sports lover's dream home and facility. An organization like NIFS could manage it.

It would take a heck of a lot of money, and a developer with great vision, but would extremely profitable and beautiful if done right."

Thanks! ;-) It was mine! 2 years ago!

http://www.ibj.com/blog/article?articleId=1843

My response to an ibj post about bush

"Bush Stadium would be the perfect place to build a sports-lovers paradise. A place to live and a place to play.

Imagine several stories of condos with balconies overlooking the field from behind the outfield wall. How cool would it be to wake up in the morning and have a cup of coffee looking out over a beautifully manicured baseball diamond while the sun rises over first base?

One could potentially convert parts of the original building into racquet ball courts, basketball courts, exercise facilities, apparel shops, etc., The parking lot could be built out and used for indoor tennis courts, an indoor running track, an olympic pool, etc. Parking would be underground.

White River is right there, some sort of dock or fishing facility could be built (if the river were cleaned up). There's potential for a micro golf course along the river. The soccer fields across the street could be integrated into the design, perhaps via skywalk. Facilities for every major sport could be incorporated into a giant sports lover's dream home and facility. An organization like NIFS could manage it.

It would take a heck of a lot of money, and a developer with great vision, but would extremely profitable and beautiful if done right."

The naysayers....
Ablerock,

You are a very insightful individual with great ideas, a positive promoter, but you're smokin' crack on the old Bush Stadium ideas! Just what forward thinker in our town Indy would be willing to step forward with the bucks and commitment to pull off this grand plan? :nuts:

Just what forward thinker in our town Indy would be willing to step forward with the bucks and commitment to pull off this grand plan? :nuts:

Hopefully someone wanting to capitalize on indianapolis reputation as the ameteur sports capitol of the world...?

There is probably a decent market here. How many people working for the NCAA played NCAA sports? What about sports medicine professionals?

The naysayers....
Ablerock,

You are a very insightful individual with great ideas, a positive promoter, but you're smokin' crack on the old Bush Stadium ideas! Just what forward thinker in our town Indy would be willing to step forward with the bucks and commitment to pull off this grand plan? :nuts:

Did you not see this?

http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=12465385

It's not quite as grand as my concept... :-)

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100514/LOCAL18/5140337/Cultural-Trail-is-poised-to-expand

Decent update on the Cultural Trail progress. It still pains me to read the comments sections and how people bag on this project. I know we all think it's pretty good, but when I see people complaining about fouling up the streets so that it doesnt disturb traffic, it almost sends me into a fit. LOL

Go eat a cheeesburger...

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100514/LOCAL18/5140337/Cultural-Trail-is-poised-to-expand

Decent update on the Cultural Trail progress. It still pains me to read the comments sections and how people bag on this project. I know we all think it's pretty good, but when I see people complaining about fouling up the streets so that it doesnt disturb traffic, it almost sends me into a fit. LOL

Go eat a cheeesburger...
The Cultural Trail is an amazing project, but you have to admit that some of the opponents are more right than ever (even if they often come across as stark raving mad on the Star forums). The project was sold to the general public as a private donation effort when, in the end, 58% of the trail was funded by federal tax money. Classic bait-and-switch.

I'd also like to commend the Star art department on their color code for their inset map:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Date=20100514&Category=LOCAL18&ArtNo=5140337&Site=BG&Ref=V2&MaxW=580&MaxH=460

Really, you couldn't come up with more different colors for 'In progress' and 'Planned'?

The map isnt even correct... LOL I almost posted that. Dan should get off his ass and go see the trail. I dont even work downtown and know more about it apparently than the author

As for tax dollars being spent, I really dont mind them being spent. If we didnt get them, then some other state building more walkable streets or funding a light rail line are going to get them. I read an article somewhere about how much money Arizona had put in the pot and how much they were getting out and it made me really wonder about how much non-highway tax dollars we get back out. When you see huge networks fo rail bein assembled in places like Dallas (admittedly throttling down now), Portland, Minneapolis ($900 million for the Central Corridor) and other such places, the "federal money" came from someplace. So if we got a good percentage from the feds, I dont mind one bit.

The map isnt even correct... LOL I almost posted that. Dan should get off his ass and go see the trail. I dont even work downtown and know more about it apparently than the author

As for tax dollars being spent, I really dont mind them being spent. If we didnt get them, then some other state building more walkable streets or funding a light rail line are going to get them. I read an article somewhere about how much money Arizona had put in the pot and how much they were getting out and it made me really wonder about how much non-highway tax dollars we get back out. When you see huge networks fo rail bein assembled in places like Dallas (admittedly throttling down now), Portland, Minneapolis ($900 million for the Central Corridor) and other such places, the "federal money" came from someplace. So if we got a good percentage from the feds, I dont mind one bit.
Oh, I totally agree with what you're saying. No problem here with grabbing our fair share of federal stimulus money to complete an amazing project.

I'm just pointing out that the people who have a problem with the Cultural Trail funding scheme have a very legitimate beef.

Now, people who complain about losing vehicle lane width and having to deal with pedestrians who dare to cross downtown streets.....ugh.

The people who have a problem with the Cultural Trail funding scheme are the same people who have a problem paying taxes period..... where do they think all the money comes from to build the raods they drive their Tahoe on? Just sayin...

I think it is very clear - and very troubling - that the mover and shaker community of Indianapolis has not supported the Trail. The amount of private donations raised apart from the Glicks is astonishingly low for such an amazing project.

It is going to be a mad house downtown the next 19 months regarding the trail. They are targeting getting it completed at the end of 2011 to meet the conditions of the federal grant the trail was awarded. It should be very interesting traffic wise when all cylinders are firing to finish it before the deadline.

The Cultural Trail is an amazing project, but you have to admit that some of the opponents are more right than ever (even if they often come across as stark raving mad on the Star forums). The project was sold to the general public as a private donation effort when, in the end, 58% of the trail was funded by federal tax money. Classic bait-and-switch.
?

I believe you are wrong.

From the beginning, the Trail planners only promised no local tax revenues would be used on the project and that promise has been kept (although, I do not think it should have been necessary to make that promise in order to push the project forward). I have followed the project from its inception, and I recall that early on it was mentioned that federal funding would be pursued. Moreover, even if the project boosters had promised no federal funding would be pursued (which I don't believe was the case), I quite frankly think there is nothing either deceptive or otherwise unethical with changing course and pursuing federal funding to finish the Trail rather than leaving an unfinished project or scaling it down to some half-assed development.

I will go even further and say that I think all the opponents of the Trail are wingnut idiots who should be dropped on a deserted island and left to fight each other to the death. I have friends and family members across the political spectrum, but I don't cotton well to mean-spirited jack-asses who just want to rant and rave.

I think it is very clear - and very troubling - that the mover and shaker community of Indianapolis has not supported the Trail. The amount of private donations raised apart from the Glicks is astonishingly low for such an amazing project.

The Lilly corporate foundation (as opposed to the Lilly Endowment which in recent years has moved away from funding capital projects) gave a substantial sum, as did several prominent local charitable funds, including the Efroymson Fund, the Eccles Charitable Fund, the Fairbanks Foundation, the Pulliam Charitable Trust, the Clowes Foundation, the DeHaan Family Found, the Simon Family Found, etc. There were also prominent corporate donors, including Barnes & Thornburg, the Indiana Pacers, One America, Cummins, etc. I think there are a fair number of "movers and shakers" on the donor list. I believe the financial crisis presented a big challenge to the fundraising efforts, and the donor list would have been much longer if the economy had been better.

I believe you are wrong.

From the beginning, the Trail planners only promised no local tax revenues would be used on the project and that promise has been kept (although, I do not think it should have been necessary to make that promise in order to push the project forward). I have followed the project from its inception, and I recall that early on it was mentioned that federal funding would be pursued. Moreover, even if the project boosters had promised no federal funding would be pursued (which I don't believe was the case), I quite frankly think there is nothing either deceptive or otherwise unethical with changing course and pursuing federal funding to finish the Trail rather than leaving an unfinished project or scaling it down to some half-assed development.

I will go even further and say that I think all the opponents of the Trail are wingnut idiots who should be dropped on a deserted island and left to fight each other to the death. I have friends and family members across the political spectrum, but I don't cotton well to mean-spirited jack-asses who just want to rant and rave.
You'll find that I wrote nearly the exact same thing as your first paragraph several times if you look back at the forum archives. So right off the bat, we're in agreement on the facts.

However, while *I* don't have a problem with any of the funding mechanisms being used for the trail, I DO think it's fair for other people to have a problem with being asked to pay for a project that they were told was going to be largely covered by private donations. That grant money doesn't just bubble up out of the ground because it's federal -- everyone has to pay that back.

Again, just to be clear: I don't agree with that sentiment, I just respect the foundation of that argument.

Indiana is a donor state when it comes to federal transportation dollars. We currently get about 91 cents back for every dollar we send in. It used to be even worse -- closer to getting about 80 cents back for every dollar we sent in -- back in the nineties. I'm glad we're getting these federal dollars. Otherwise they'd be going somewhere else - and Hoosiers would still be paying for it. Also -- I see no reason to complain about federal dollars going to our bike / ped network. Would you rather have $20 million in federal funds going to finish up this Cultural Trail project -- or get $20 million that would help pay for a one twentieth of some bridge for more trucks and cars to roll over? I think it is great that Indianapolis got these funds. Indy and Philadelphia were the only two major cities that got significant funds for bike/ped projects -- and we are being recognized for it. I think it is great that it is Indy that other cities are looking at - and being impressed with the progress we are making with our bike / ped corridors. Usually its Portland, Minneapolis, Seattle, Boulder, etc. $20 million for another road project would have never gotten any attention. Now people are hearing about Indy's bike network and paying attention.

You'll find that I wrote nearly the exact same thing as your first paragraph several times if you look back at the forum archives. So right off the bat, we're in agreement on the facts.

However, while *I* don't have a problem with any of the funding mechanisms being used for the trail, I DO think it's fair for other people to have a problem with being asked to pay for a project that they were told was going to be largely covered by private donations. That grant money doesn't just bubble up out of the ground because it's federal -- everyone has to pay that back.

Again, just to be clear: I don't agree with that sentiment, I just respect the foundation of that argument.

Yes, CorrND, I understand you strongly support the Trail. However, I still don't think the rabid Trail critics have a "fair" or otherwise legitimate argument. As I stated, my understanding is that the Trail proponents never said they would not pursue federal funding and that early on BEFORE construction commenced OR before the project was much beyond the initial planning phase, the Trail founders publicly stated they would pursue substantial federal funding. So, again, no one was misled. Instead, they chose to hear what they wanted to hear, and they didn't even believe what they thought they heard, judging by all the complaining they did.

Finally, I am well aware that federal funding comes from taxpayers, including myself. However, Congress allocates the transportation funds to be spent in broad categories and the Dept. of Transportation takes that money and awards it to states or to specific projects. If Indianapolis chose not to apply for the grants, the money would have simply gone to other cities or states for similar trail-type projects. If the city were to have not gone after federal funding for the Trail, it would not have lowered anyone's federal taxes, nor would it have ensured that the money "only went to roads," etc. Rather, Portland, Providence, Peoria, or some other city would have simply received more money to build their own trail projects. If certain people take issue with federal spending policy, then they are free to take the matter up with their elected officials in Congress, and/or vote in new representatives to serve in Congress. I don't think advocating a "boycott" of federal funding is a practical or sensible way to protest federal spending policy.

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http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x320/kehughes1/IndianaTrip051010096.jpg

Is a crown going to be put on the Allen Plaza building? Thought it was, like in the picture downtown. These are nice photos, I appreciate you taking them.

Yes, CorrND, I understand you strongly support the Trail. However, I still don't think the rabid Trail critics have a "fair" or otherwise legitimate argument. As I stated, my understanding is that the Trail proponents never said they would not pursue federal funding and that early on BEFORE construction commenced OR before the project was much beyond the initial planning phase, the Trail founders publicly stated they would pursue substantial federal funding. So, again, no one was misled. Instead, they chose to hear what they wanted to hear, and they didn't even believe what they thought they heard, judging by all the complaining they did.

Finally, I am well aware that federal funding comes from taxpayers, including myself. However, Congress allocates the transportation funds to be spent in broad categories and the Dept. of Transportation takes that money and awards it to states or to specific projects. If Indianapolis chose not to apply for the grants, the money would have simply gone to other cities or states for similar trail-type projects. If the city were to have not gone after federal funding for the Trail, it would not have lowered anyone's federal taxes, nor would it have ensured that the money "only went to roads," etc. Rather, Portland, Providence, Peoria, or some other city would have simply received more money to build their own trail projects. If certain people take issue with federal spending policy, then they are free to take the matter up with their elected officials in Congress, and/or vote in new representatives to serve in Congress. I don't think advocating a "boycott" of federal funding is a practical or sensible way to protest federal spending policy.
Fair enough -- all good points and we agree on everything. I'm done playing devil's advocate for the crazies. Let's go have a beer.

Fair enough -- all good points and we agree on everything. I'm done playing devil's advocate for the crazies. Let's go have a beer.

I'm all for beer. :)

K2H: Excellent photos of a lot of places that haven't been seen lately on SSC .... some new locations of the Cultural Trail under construction; the JWMarriott and skywalk; Woodruff Place; the new Slow Food Garden at White River State Park; Convention Center Expansion; Fountain Square and its new Fountain and all your other shots from around downtown. Much appreciated!

Has Indy won any awards yet for the cultural trail? If not there's gotta be some urban planning recognition coming up. Such a great project.

I've ruminated about the Georgia St. improvement for the morning and I have a hard time getting behind the idea. To me, there are two issues:

1. Should this be done at all?
2. If so, is $12.5M a reasonable cost?

My answer to (1) is yes. By all means, prepare for the temporary closing of Georgia for the Super Bowl and other similarly high-profile events, and do whatever beautification you deem necessary for that purpose.

My answer to (2) is NO. $12.5M is a gratuitous sum of money to spend on three blocks of street. Let's compare that cost to the Cultural Trail, an amenity already being described as world-class in design quality:

The Cultural Trail is around 6 or 7 miles (can't seem to find the exact length right now) and costs a total of $60M. For simplicity and conservative cost estimation, let's say it's 6 miles -- that's $1M per mile-square city block. Three blocks of Georgia redone to a design standard like the Cultural Trail should cost about $3M.

How is god's name should it cost more than FOUR TIMES that to redo Georgia St.? Are they planning to paint the center line in 24k gold?

Someone needs to explain how that money will be spent. The people on this forum will likely support the concept of building complete streets combined with the need to constantly raise the bar when it comes to event hosting. To many people, however, it's going to appear wasteful to spend ANY money on three perfectly functional city blocks when there is crumbling infrastructure all over the city and city leaders are constantly complaining that there aren't sufficient funds to address that problem. It's not going to help matters that the spending rate appears gratuitous to boot.

It is wasteful. It costs too much. Actually, the Cultural Trail does also, particularly since, generally, perfectly good sidewalks were ripped up, while around the corner from the trail, disastrous sidewalks exist in major streets.

This is nothing but a transfer of wealth to the NFL, hotels, and all the other usual suspects who always benefit from government largess and return a percentage back as bribes (campaign contributions), being one of the reasons for the high costs (everyone has to get their cut).

Shouldn't we at least be giving Indy some props for going against the status quo? I think while there still may be some problems with these concepts we should still be thankful they're thinking outside of the good ole' midwestern box. Ya know?

This is a scheme to benefit the NFL Gods and their minions; meanwhile the usual local suspects will steal as much of this money for themselves as possible. This is, of course, the real reason, many people want the Super Bowl, is so they can steal a portion (at least) of the money wasted on this events, which do nothing for the betterment of the general populace. Georgia Street? Really? What a joke!

I love the Georgia Street idea and think it will be a great addition. The street is rarely used and is a perfect corridor for more intensive pedestrain activity.

The Circle on teh other hand...I am not too sure just yet.

If Georgia Street is rarely used, why spend a lot of money on it. The reason it is rarely used is because there is no reason for the average citizen to use it because it dead-ends into structures that are unused many hours of the day, and many days of the months, and there rarely is any reason for anyone to travel between them.

FYI - The Left Bank at the Cosmopolitan on the Canal is now open. I am told they are also seeking a license to serve alcoholic beverages.

Considering this will be a significant test to see if there is a market for canal-level retail/restaurants, i encourage everyone to check this place out and support another locally-owned (i think?) business downtown.

I agree with you 100%. I dont have sidewalks on my street. It directly affects me and my wife's decision to get out and walk. We have a newborn child so getting out and pushing the stroller through the neighborhood bares the decision of walking on the street where cars zoom down our street, or getting in our car and driving somewhere that DOES have sidewalks, or the monon, to do it. I would love to get sidewalks on our street, but there is really no outlet to lobby for this... at least not one where it will get much merit.

But when I see other places getting good walkable areas, it doesnt mean that my jealousy is going to overcome the fact that something good is happening. Yeah, it would be nice to get money elsewhere to do it, but where do you get it?

It is not jealousy that motivates us; it is common sense. I don't have sidewalks on my street, but it is not that important. I want a good sidewalk infrastructure on major streets, mainly arterials and collectors. But it almost never happens. The downtown sidewalks are completely different. Generally, they are wider and are generally separated from the travel lanes by parking spaces (and sidewalk infrastructure such as parking meters.

The money exists (well, not really, since it is mostly funny money from the government printing press); it just ends up being misappropriated for projects like Georgia Street, the Cultural Trail, etc., again and again. Meanwhile, the local politicians wring their hands with phony worry about how infrastructure is going to be funded.

The map isnt even correct... LOL I almost posted that. Dan should get off his ass and go see the trail. I dont even work downtown and know more about it apparently than the author

As for tax dollars being spent, I really dont mind them being spent. If we didnt get them, then some other state building more walkable streets or funding a light rail line are going to get them. I read an article somewhere about how much money Arizona had put in the pot and how much they were getting out and it made me really wonder about how much non-highway tax dollars we get back out. When you see huge networks fo rail bein assembled in places like Dallas (admittedly throttling down now), Portland, Minneapolis ($900 million for the Central Corridor) and other such places, the "federal money" came from someplace. So if we got a good percentage from the feds, I dont mind one bit.

Hey, how about we don't send the money to the feds and beg and plead for our money (or beg and plead for them to print / borrow more money). Then we locally can decide whether we should fund (raise taxes (issue a bond, etc.,) some of this nonsense, instead of having bureaucrats decide who gets what.

Freelunch, who shit in your coffee this morning?

FYI - The Left Bank at the Cosmopolitan on the Canal is now open. I am told they are also seeking a license to serve alcoholic beverages.

Considering this will be a significant test to see if there is a market for canal-level retail/restaurants, i encourage everyone to check this place out and support another locally-owned (i think?) business downtown.
I checked it out on Friday and it's quite nice, a great addition to those dead office blocks between the Indiana Historical Society and the head of the canal. On my rough finger count, it looks like seating for about 14 inside and 40 outside, so it's going to be a very seasonal operation.

I was told that it's being run by the same people than run Mo'Joe Coffeehouse. WAY different operation and vibe at Left Bank Cafe, though. My server said that they would be serving beer and wine sometime in June.

It is wasteful. It costs too much. Actually, the Cultural Trail does also, particularly since, generally, perfectly good sidewalks were ripped up, while around the corner from the trail, disastrous sidewalks exist in major streets.

This is nothing but a transfer of wealth to the NFL, hotels, and all the other usual suspects who always benefit from government largess and return a percentage back as bribes (campaign contributions), being one of the reasons for the high costs (everyone has to get their cut).

Whatever the merits of the Georgia Street project may or may not be, I wouldn't compare it to the Cultural Trail.

The Cultural Trail was planned and construction began long before Indianapolis was awarded the Super Bowl, so it has nothing to do with the "NFL gods." Also, the Cultural Trail when completed will go through many neighborhoods, including Fountain Square which are nowhere near the Stadium, the Convention Center, or any downtown-specific venues, so I would not say it was built for the sole benefit of out-of-town visitors, the NFL, etc. As for supposedly "perfectly good sidewalks," being ripped up, that is not true. Many of the existing sidewalks were crappy, and many of the intersections rebuilt for the Trail were not easy to cross (I know from personal experience), and some where downright dangerous. Also, over 1/3 of the cost of the trail is going to replace underground infrastructure, some of it over a 100 years old, which was in desperate need of replacement.

Honey, you can have your opinion, but I think it's not well-supported and I vehemently disagree.

Hey, how about we don't send the money to the feds and beg and plead for our money (or beg and plead for them to print / borrow more money). Then we locally can decide whether we should fund (raise taxes (issue a bond, etc.,) some of this nonsense, instead of having bureaucrats decide who gets what.

How about voting in the next federal election??? You aren't going to change federal spending policy by griping on a development board.

I definitely disagree with you Free lunch. We have been focusing so much of our regional, state and federal dollars on expanding roadways out into suburbia to help spread inefficient growth and the related need to keep expanding other infrastructure out into the continued outward sprawl. This is occurring at a significant cost to central city areas which are losing people and subsequently businesses to serve them. It is very important to continue to invest in our central city and downtown. Since we really can't widen streets in our downtown area - we need to help make them more attractive for people walking, biking and using transit. The non-auto related transportation improvements will help encourage more people to live in the center of the region - where infrastructure already exists - and where people don't have to use their car for every trip they take (like what happens 99% of the time in the suburbs).

Georgia Street isn't busy a lot of the time --- with cars --- but it does get very busy with pedestrians quite often. Thus it makes a lot of sense to make Georgia Street primarily a pedestrian priority corridor. When the big conventions are in town -- Georgia Street is very crowded -- and when the new main entrance to the Convention Center opens in about six months -- on the west end of GEORGIA Street downtown -- there will be even more pedestrian traffic with people walking from the CC to all of the bars and restaurants on Georgia, Illinois, Meridian and Pennsylvania Streets that can be easily accessed from Georgia Street. When Convention Center events also involve conventioneers having events at Conseco Fieldhouse, there is a large amount of pedestrian traffic moving back and forth over the three blocks of Georiga St. between the CC and Conseco. Have you ever been around when the FFA convention is in town? Or the Fire Instructors Conference? There are likely going to be many more of the very large conventions coming to town with the opening of the new doubled-in-size CC expansion. Crowds from Pacers games, Fever games, Concerts and other large events at Conseco spill out onto Georgia Street too. And on Thursday, Friday and Saturday evenings and nights there are large crowds of people that hang out at the bars and restaurants in this area. The intersection of Georgia Street and Meridian Street is pretty much the center of the Wholesale District. Its not crowded all of the time --- but there are plenty of events that do get it pretty crowded with pedestrian traffic. Were you around during the Final Four a month and a half ago? There definitely was a need to have more room for pedestrians in the southern half of downtown. An improvement like what is planned for Georgia Street would have been a good thing to have in place back in early April. Indy's got the Women's Final Four next year -- and will have a major NCAA regional or 1st / 2nd round game within another 2 or three years -- and then the final four again in 2015 or 2016 -- and this cycle of major NCAA basketball events will continue to be repeated over and over until at least 2035. The Big Ten tournament creates similar crowds at Conseco. Bottom line is --- the Georgia Street improvements are not happening just to benefit the NFL for the Super Bowl. It will be good to have it in place by then for the huge crowds that will be downtown -- but there are many other reasons why it is important to have the Georgia Street improvements in place.

Hopefully these improvements will help encourage the Aloft and Le Meridien hotels to be built - just north of Georgia Street along Pennsylvania Street as had been discussed a few years ago. Helping to make the area more attractive for pedestrian use might help encourage some other new residential or hotel uses to occur in the area as well.

You also complained about the Cultural Trail. I believe it is one of the strongest improvements in quite a while downtown in terms of a project that is bringing new developments along with it in areas adjacent or near to it. There are many residential projects that have specifically stated that the development of the Cultural trail had a strong impact on their decision to build or plan their developments on or near the trail. The IMOCA development near Fountain Square; the new residential development going in along Capitol at St. Clair; new apartments on S. College near Virginia Ave; the expansion of the Warthan (?) Apartments (not sure the name) along S. East Street; the "TRAILSIDE" apartments along Mass Ave. (wonder where they came up with that name?); the Cosmopolitan; the proposed expansion of Riley Towers along North Street; the potential student housing project along Illinois St. just north of Michigan; potential projects on or near the former Market Square Arena site; etc. These are all projects that have happened or may soon happen that recognize the benefits of being located on or near the Cultural Trail.

These two pedestiran / bicycle improvements in the heart of downtown are a good thing. The cost of the Georgia Street improvements needs to be scrutinized to make sure we are not paying excessively for anything that is not necessary -- but I would guess that in addition to the pedestrian improvements -- there are likely some other major water / sewer type infrastructure improvements that are also being taken care of while the road is torn up. Long story short --- I'm glad we are seeing bike / pedestrian infrastructure improvements in downtown and I believe they will be a good thing to keep encouraging growth and more pedestrian traffic. This is an excellent amenity that will be able to be used in promoting the city to potential major conventions. If these attractive improvements can be the additional amenity that turns a decision in Indianapolis' favor for a major convention to choose our city over somewhere else -- the extra dollars from two or three additional 25,000 person conventions will bring in thirty to fifty million $ to our city (at least) in new spending. The hotel, restaurant and rental car taxes by themselves brought in from new crowds and conventions attracted to our city will bring in a few million a year. Its a good thing to see these improvements -- and by helping to attract more conventions and visitors -- the additional taxes and monies they spend and the additional spending that occurs in our local economy because of the initial new visitor spending- will pretty much pay for the improvements in a few years.

It is not jealousy that motivates us; it is common sense. I don't have sidewalks on my street, but it is not that important. I want a good sidewalk infrastructure on major streets, mainly arterials and collectors. But it almost never happens. The downtown sidewalks are completely different. Generally, they are wider and are generally separated from the travel lanes by parking spaces (and sidewalk infrastructure such as parking meters.

The money exists (well, not really, since it is mostly funny money from the government printing press); it just ends up being misappropriated for projects like Georgia Street, the Cultural Trail, etc., again and again. Meanwhile, the local politicians wring their hands with phony worry about how infrastructure is going to be funded.

Freelunch - do you get this frustrated when future road and suburban infrastructure projects are being announced locally?

It seems to me many people that consistently raise concerns about urban and/or pedestrian-oriented projects (which do not receive anywhere near as much funding as to road projects) do not raise the same concerns when billions of federal dollars are funneled into roads and other infrastructure projects that promote suburban sprawl.

http://www.ibj.com/25m-science-and-engineering-lab-okd-for-iupui/PARAMS/article/19986

IUPUI to get a 25M building "in the heart of the campus".

Freelunch - do you get this frustrated when future road and suburban infrastructure projects are being announced locally?

It seems to me many people that consistently raise concerns about urban and/or pedestrian-oriented projects (which do not receive anywhere near as much funding as to road projects) do not raise the same concerns when billions of federal dollars are funneled into roads and other infrastructure projects that promote suburban sprawl.

I'm not Free Lunch, but since I lamented the fact that $12.5M will be spent on three blocks of Georgia Street, I'll try to restate my two cents on the issue: It's not about spending money on extravagant downtown projects vs. spending money on suburban road projects. It's about spending money on extravagant downtown projects when your urban neighborhoods (Center Township), not to mention the rest of the County are marginally walkable, if at all. Even the best of our urban neighborhoods have poor street design that caters to cars, cars, and more cars, with pedestrians being an afterthought. Walk along most any arterial street, and if it has sidewalks, most of the time you'll be walking right next to fast-moving traffic. We can find $12.5M to turn three blocks of Georgia Street into a pedestrian delight, but we apparently can't afford, or simply don't care enough, to properly locate sidewalks away from traffic on West 38th Street.

Im not sure what it is worth, but I submitted a suggestion to the mayor about including sidewalks in my neighborhood with this new infrastructure money that is coming from the supposed sale of the utility. We'll see I guess huh

http://www.ibj.com/25m-science-and-engineering-lab-okd-for-iupui/PARAMS/article/19986

IUPUI to get a 25M building "in the heart of the campus".
That's great news. They've been talking about constructing a new building to house the biomedical engineering program since I started graduate school there in 2002.

As you note, they're pretty vague about the location. I worked in the BME department until 2008 and two different locations were proposed over the years:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/random/new_et.jpg

I believe the red location was always earmarked for a third connecting building with the 3-story SL (labelled "Science, Engineering & Technology") and LD ("Science Bldg") buildings. The blue location was a different plan that was floated a while back. Its footprint is smaller so it would have been taller, I believe 5 to 6 stories.

K2H: Excellent photos of a lot of places that haven't been seen lately on SSC .... some new locations of the Cultural Trail under construction; the JWMarriott and skywalk; Woodruff Place; the new Slow Food Garden at White River State Park; Convention Center Expansion; Fountain Square and its new Fountain and all your other shots from around downtown. Much appreciated!

Gaak. The ugliest scene in the lot is of the Fountain Square fountain and surround.

As if the modernist cube boulders around a neo-classical fountain weren't bad enough, they added upside-down flower-pot bollards! And they left a power pole stuck in the sidewalk.

I'm sorry, I'm just not a fan and it is not growing on me...it looks worse every time I see it. What a disastrous mishmash.

We can find $12.5M to turn three blocks of Georgia Street into a pedestrian delight, but we apparently can't afford, or simply don't care enough, to properly locate sidewalks away from traffic on West 38th Street.

...or keep our branch libraries open (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12457469)

begin troll:
This would never happen in Portland.
end troll

That's great news. They've been talking about constructing a new building to house the biomedical engineering program since I started graduate school there in 2002.

As you note, they're pretty vague about the location. I worked in the BME department until 2008 and two different locations were proposed over the years:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/random/new_et.jpg

I believe the red location was always earmarked for a third connecting building with the 3-story SL (labelled "Science, Engineering & Technology") and LD ("Science Bldg") buildings. The blue location was a different plan that was floated a while back. Its footprint is smaller so it would have been taller, I believe 5 to 6 stories.

The red box I've noticed a lot of surveying going on this past semester. I have a feeling this is where the new building is going.

I'm not Free Lunch, but since I lamented the fact that $12.5M will be spent on three blocks of Georgia Street, I'll try to restate my two cents on the issue: It's not about spending money on extravagant downtown projects vs. spending money on suburban road projects. It's about spending money on extravagant downtown projects when your urban neighborhoods (Center Township), not to mention the rest of the County are marginally walkable, if at all. Even the best of our urban neighborhoods have poor street design that caters to cars, cars, and more cars, with pedestrians being an afterthought. Walk along most any arterial street, and if it has sidewalks, most of the time you'll be walking right next to fast-moving traffic. We can find $12.5M to turn three blocks of Georgia Street into a pedestrian delight, but we apparently can't afford, or simply don't care enough, to properly locate sidewalks away from traffic on West 38th Street.

The issue you point out is much bigger than just a question of spending on downtown projects versus investing in neighborhoods. Yes, the city often does find money for certain downtown projects when neighborhood infrastructure, though not major transportation corridors (such as the interstates or big roads like 86th Street, etc.), are neglected. However, the county has something of the order of $5 billion of backlogged infrastructure repairs, not improvements, needed just to get things to function the way they were originally built. Shuffling a few million here or there doesn't even put a dent in things.

This is the truth, and I know it isn't popular: Marion County needs to RAISE TAXES, whether in the form of property taxes, sales taxes or income taxes and channel the money into local infrastructure. In fact, Mayor Ballard has acknowledged that much by pushing the proposed sale of the water/sewer utility to Citizens in return for a substantial payment which will be used to back bonds for roads, sidewalks and other infrastructure projects. The amount that one public entity (Citizens is a public trust owned by Marion County) pays to another public entity (Marion County) will be recouped through significantly higher water fees. It's sad that our local elected officials have to resort to "back-door" taxation because government taxation to support public services has been cast as some sort of forced theft from the individual rather than the honorable societal obligation it used to be viewed as. My grandparents were of the traditional conservative mold, but the notion that they should not be obligated to support public infrastructure and services, which ranged from police protection to what was then called "poor relief," would have been completely alien to them. For my grandparents and their generation, beautiful school buildings, neat sidewalks, well-kept public parks, public monuments and art, a modern county hospital to treat the indigent, all of which cost substantial sums of taxpayer money to build, were a source of pride, and not viewed as "government waste."

For many decades, Indianapolis has focused on figuring out how little it can do and how cheaply it can do it, except of course, when it comes to building publicly-financed stadiums for professional sports teams. Now, the people of Indianapolis are slowly coming to the realization that they have got what they paid for, and it hasn't been a good deal.

Gaak. The ugliest scene in the lot is of the Fountain Square fountain and surround.

As if the modernist cube boulders around a neo-classical fountain weren't bad enough, they added upside-down flower-pot bollards! And they left a power pole stuck in the sidewalk.

I'm sorry, I'm just not a fan and it is not growing on me...it looks worse every time I see it. What a disastrous mishmash.

I love the restored fountain and I think it is very beautiful. As for the concrete blocks, unfortunately, they are necessary to prevent a car from taking out the fountain in an accident--that is how the original fountain was destroyed.

That doesnt mean that it needs to look poorly designed to function....

I love the restored fountain and I think it is very beautiful. As for the concrete blocks, unfortunately, they are necessary to prevent a car from taking out the fountain in an accident--that is how the original fountain was destroyed.

I agree with you: the neo-classical fountain itself is beautiful. But I'll stand by my statement: the jarring modern field o' blocks does not add anything to the historic neighborhood or the view of the delicate sculpture. It detracts.

As discussed previously in this space, the lane of traffic between the fountain and Fountain Square Theater could have (should have) been removed to allow the fountain a more-secure location away from traffic in a pedestrian space. There are plenty of ways to put attractive faces on reinforced-concrete retaining wall structures that will keep cars away but encourage people to walk, sit, and stand nearby.

Ronnie James Dio passed away on May 16th... I am sure he played Indy several times throughout his career.

idlyic, tonight's your chance:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100518/LOCAL1804/5180354/-1/ARCHIVE/Public-forum-on-W.-38th-Street-work-planned

Shuttle options for the 500
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100518/NEWS18/5180341/1369/It-s-a-race-but-you-don-t-have-to-drive

idlyic, tonight's your chance:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100518/LOCAL1804/5180354/-1/ARCHIVE/Public-forum-on-W.-38th-Street-work-planned
Wait, widening the pavement on 38th?! Traffic already blows through there at about 45mph. They don't need to be going any faster.

Wait, widening the pavement on 38th?! Traffic already blows through there at about 45mph. They don't need to be going any faster.

Now what they'll need is even more traffic lights, as any moderate-sized intersecting road will need one for traffic to be able to cross it safely. Such is the nature of over-widened streets; they keep getting wider to accommodate more traffic which will eventually keep backing up due to the parade of traffic lights. Madness.

Well -- at least they're putting in sod and landscaping in the medians and new curbs and sidewalks. Trees in medians help slow down traffic a little. Maybe it'll even out any speed increases related to widening. (ever the optimist)

Well -- at least they're putting in sod and landscaping in the medians and new curbs and sidewalks. Trees in medians help slow down traffic a little. Maybe it'll even out any speed increases related to widening. (ever the optimist)

I agree with Idyllic. Busy boulevards like 38th need a landscape buffer between curb and sidewalk.

Interesting parking news from IUPUI:

We are growing. The number of new students on campus is expected to increase again this year, and the new Wishard Hospital and other construction projects are moving ahead on schedule. With the reduction of parking due to construction and the increase in students the campus is taking the unprecedented step to cap the number of on-campus permits sold to faculty and staff.

Personal reaction: the number of faculty/staff parking passes issued has always been several times the number of spaces that were available -- when I worked on campus, I was rarely able to park in one of the limited a 'B' staff spaces and more often ended up in an 'E' student space -- so it seems odd that they just now think that the imbalance is an issue. And while I accept that they charge faculty/staff to park on campus, it seems a little crazy that they will no longer guarantee that faculty/staff even have the right to pay for a parking pass.

Urban/Green Reaction: this is the future for IUPUI. They simply cannot continue to be a 30k+ urban university that provides space for every employee and student to drive a car onto campus. Time for them to embrace the fact that they're in a city. Recommendations came along with the parking reduction announcement that encourages the use of public transportation, carpooling, etc. Kudos on the announcement.

Interesting parking news from IUPUI:

We are growing. The number of new students on campus is expected to increase again this year, and the new Wishard Hospital and other construction projects are moving ahead on schedule. With the reduction of parking due to construction and the increase in students the campus is taking the unprecedented step to cap the number of on-campus permits sold to faculty and staff.

Shit! I start Law School in the fall. Not what I want to be hearing. I never really had any problems parking in the past, but I think that was solely due to my obscenely early mornings. I guess I will just have to get back into the swing of things... or move downtown and bike...

IUPUI does have to come to terms with its future of becoming a more crowded university, and hopefully at the same time a more public transit oriented university.

I for one, dont feel bad about this at all. I ditched paying for a permit last semester anyway and if you followed my blog saw the creative ways I dealt with it using the people mover and such. now that the cultural trail is done, there is nearly a bike path from my front door to campus. And I live in Broad Ripple.

One of my teachers in fall semester rides his bike to campus, so it is being done already. I just wish that they had done this before deciding to build another parking garage. An actual functioning building could have been put there instead of parking. Oh well, at least they are embracing the reality

I for one, dont feel bad about this at all. I ditched paying for a permit last semester anyway and if you followed my blog saw the creative ways I dealt with it using the people mover and such. now that the cultural trail is done, there is nearly a bike path from my front door to campus. And I live in Broad Ripple.

One of my teachers in fall semester rides his bike to campus, so it is being done already. I just wish that they had done this before deciding to build another parking garage. An actual functioning building could have been put there instead of parking. Oh well, at least they are embracing the reality
Don't forget Wishard -- they're building two garages on campus right now.

Part of me worries that this is only a temporary blip -- capping the number of parking passes in response to a particularly robust period of construction on campus -- and they'll return to the unlimited parking SNAFU later.

THAT would be frustrating...

Here is this for anyone who didnt know about it. I will be there. IndyCog will be there. Health by Design will be there. PUP will be there.

http://hustonstreetracing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/beyond_the_motor_city.jpg

http://www.ibj.com/i70-shortcut-getting-an-obstacle/PARAMS/article/20020

Well, if you read the star about IndyGO this morning, here is the email they sent last night detailing the specifics.

Wow... This is eerily like St Louis a couple years ago. After which they passed a tax increase.


Transit agency must reduce budget in response to shortfalls in local funding



Indianapolis—The Indianapolis Public Transportation Corporation (IndyGo) is recommending the following service adjustments to accommodate a dramatic shortfall in its 2010 property tax distribution. Property tax is IndyGo’s primary source of local revenue, which accounts for about 30% of IndyGo’s total annual budget: $53 million.



In preparation for some expected reductions in revenue and unplanned expenses, IndyGo cut a half million dollars worth of service earlier this year. Fiscal analysis of this current shortfall indicates that the transit provider must cut $3.2 million in expenses in order to maintain a balanced budget for 2010.



The proposed service changes will also help IndyGo address its 2011 budget, which is likely to be affected with similar reductions in State and Local revenue. As with 2010, the 2011 budget will rely on certain assumptions related to revenue and expenses. These assumptions include increases in fuel costs and employee benefits despite reduced revenue from local property tax and State PMTF (Public Mass Transportation Funds).



IndyGo is proposing the following changes that would take effect in mid-July.

Please note the following terms: “peak” refers to rush-hour commuting hours in the morning and evening; “off peak” refers to non rush- hour periods throughout the day.



Proposed Fixed Route Eliminations

· Route 11: East 16th Street

· Route 55: English

· Route 87: Eastside Circulator



Proposed Routing Changes

· Route 4: Eliminate select trips to Community North and trips via 38th Street

· Route 5: Eliminate select trips to 34th and Elmira

· Route 12: Eliminate 12R, service via Raymond

· Route 17: Extend service to Keystone at the Crossing

· Route 19: Eliminate 96th Street Loop select trips

· Route 18: Eliminate service to Keystone at the Crossing. Service between 38th and 62nd Street will be shifted to College Avenue.

· Route 21: Eliminate weekday service to Mitthoefer and 30th St.

· Route 26: Eliminate service between Glendale and Keystone at the Crossing and between Keystone/National and Thompson/ Emerson

· Route 30: Eliminate select trips on Arlington

· Route 34: Eliminate weekday service to ITT/ Mayflower (3 trips affected)



Proposed Frequency Adjustments

· Route 2: weekday peak and off peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes), Saturday (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 5: weekday off peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 10: weekday peak (from 20-30 minutes to 30 minutes)

· Route 12: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes), Sunday service eliminated

· Route 14: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes), Sunday service eliminated

· Route 16: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 17: weekday off peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes), Saturday (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes), Sunday (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 18: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 21: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 22: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 90 minutes), weekday off peak (from 60 minutes to 90 minutes)

· Route 24: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes), eliminate Saturday service

· Route 25: weekday peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 26: weekday peak (from 40 minutes to 60 minutes), weekday off peak (from 70 minutes to 60 minutes), Saturday (from 65 minutes to 60 minutes), eliminate Sunday service

· Route 30: weekday peak and off peak (from 20 and 45 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 31: weekday off peak (from 30 minutes to 60 minutes)

· Route 50 – Red Line: weekday peak (from 15 minutes to 30 minutes), weekday off peak (from 15 minutes to 30 minutes), Saturday service eliminated



Note that no service changes are recommended for Routes 3, 8, 15, 28, 37, 38 and 39.

Proposed Fare Increase

IndyGo proposes a fare increase in order to retain some services that would otherwise be eliminated. This would result in the following fare structure:

Single ride from 1.75 to 2
Day pass from 4 to 4.50
Week pass from 20 to 23
31 day from 60 to 70

The additional following changes are proposed to take effect over upcoming months.

· ADA Open Door service: Adjust service to comply with Federal mandate to provide service within ¾ mile of IndyGo fixed route service, effective January 2011.

· Green Line/ Airport Express: Eliminate route in September 2010 when current operation contract expires.

· IndyGo Commuter Express (ICE) Routes: Discontinue Carmel and Fishers routes when Federal grant funds for these demonstration services are exhausted at year’s end 2010.

Outcomes

IndyGo recommendations related to the budget shortfall as described above may change per public comment and subsequent financial review.



Following the public hearings on May 20, the IndyGo Board of Directors will review the proposed service changes along with public comments to make final decisions about IndyGo service and fare changes required to meet this fiscal challenge.



At the IndyGo Board of Directors meeting on Thursday, May 27, in the Indianapolis Public Transportation Corporation board room (1501 W. Washington Street), this budget shortfall situation will be discussed, and the board will determine how to address the budget shortfall with changes to IndyGo service and fares. Once these decisions are made, the actual impact of the budget shortfall on IndyGo’s organizational structure (e.g., routes, revenues, budget, ridership and staffing) can be determined.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12505993

What you guys think?

Mike Terry was at the IndyConnect meeting last night and told us that this headline was coming. It is terrible, but untill we get it on a ballot and properly fund transportation with a dedicated source we will have to deal with cuts and substandard service. Apparently St. Louis, I believe, just passed a 1/2 cent sales tax to fund it's transportation.

The entire new expanded transit system including the buses is supposed to cost a little over $10bB to build over the next 25 years.

Of course at the meeting there was some old fart who sounded like one of the anti everything grumps that post on the indystar website. His argument was that "fir $10b we could buy half a million cars!" I guess he wanted to give cars to all the people who have no other option than public transit. He didn't understand that younger generations don't want to have to own a car. The American dream no longer includes a gas guzzler.

The only other detractor was some guy who seemed to think that the in street light rail was extremely dangerous. He cited the fair train as evidence which makes zero sense. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He must think that all trains are 60 cars long and take miles to stop. He didn't quite get that is more like an efficient and comfortable bus that moves with traffic, than a train that disrupts traffic.

All the renderings of that place look pretty nice patty. I was wondering if they were ever going to get around to it. Glad to hear it is moving forward.

Mike Terry was at the IndyConnect meeting last night and told us that this headline was coming. It is terrible, but untill we get it on a ballot and properly fund transportation with a dedicated source we will have to deal with cuts and substandard service. Apparently St. Louis, I believe, just passed a 1/2 cent sales tax to fund it's transportation.

The entire new expanded transit system including the buses is supposed to cost a little over $10bB to build over the next 25 years.

Of course at the meeting there was some old fart who sounded like one of the anti everything grumps that post on the indystar website. His argument was that "fir $10b we could buy half a million cars!" I guess he wanted to give cars to all the people who have no other option than public transit. He didn't understand that younger generations don't want to have to own a car. The American dream no longer includes a gas guzzler.

The only other detractor was some guy who seemed to think that the in street light rail was extremely dangerous. He cited the fair train as evidence which makes zero sense. He didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He must think that all trains are 60 cars long and take miles to stop. He didn't quite get that is more like an efficient and comfortable bus that moves with traffic, than a train that disrupts traffic.

That is funny. If there is any kind of silver lining to be found, is that the cuts proposed are so ridiculous, I hope that it prompts people to act

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12505993

What you guys think?
(a) of all, I think it's time we stop calling every empty building in the city an eyesore. Maybe some are, but the YMCA is not and "eyesore" should not be used as a catch-all phrase for unused buildings. Not that I want to keep the YMCA, but there's nothing wrong with that building other than the fact that it's vacant. Instead of eyesore, how about "the former YMCA is outmoded and a poor use of prime urban land"?

Secondly, SWEET. Buckingham gets it and the designs we've seen so far look great. I'm curious what they mean by including a theater in the project. Performance space? Movies?

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12505993

What you guys think?

Seems nice.:) I hope that a lot of thought and coordination happens to make that crazy intersection (university and 10th area) as pedestrian friendly as possible. It will definitely be a great addition to an area starved for some nicer retail. (I know there are a few strip malls, I'm talking more about restaurants and news stands with comfortable outdoor spaces instead of endless heat island parking lots.)

I walked through that area a couple times from IUPUI to the Indiana Ave parking lot this past semester, and it really is a PITA to get across. I mean, the signals are there, but its a long way to get across on foot. That is for sure.

Some promising news about the GM plant on the west sid.
http://www.ibj.com/old-gm-sites-could-receive-800-million-for-clean-up/PARAMS/article/20027

I walked through that area a couple times from IUPUI to the Indiana Ave parking lot this past semester, and it really is a PITA to get across. I mean, the signals are there, but its a long way to get across on foot. That is for sure.
Woah, so you had to cross at 10th and Indiana? That intersection is horrible for pedestrians and would take a lot of work to fix.

University and 10th isn't much better. The fact that pedestrians can't cross two of the four ways is terrible, but the ridiculous curve on the SW corner makes one of the two ways you CAN cross very difficult. Clearly that curve is there for a vehicle right turn, but the thing is, why would any vehicle be eastbound on 10th and want to turn right onto University? If you wanted to do that, you would have turned a block earlier on Indiana. No reason for that crazy curve -- if you change that to a point, you'd significantly reduce the crosswalk distance. They could also tweak the median to be a safe zone for pedestrians. Bang-o, one problem solved.

By comparison to the other two intersections, Indiana and University is a pedestrian dream.

Some promising news about the GM plant on the west sid.
http://www.ibj.com/old-gm-sites-could-receive-800-million-for-clean-up/PARAMS/article/20027

Hot mother this could be huge.

We had an interesting round of discussions about what could be done with this site a year or so ago.

I'd like to see it embraced for residential and commercial, helping Indy better connect with the river.

I think Aaron and others thought it might make sense for Public uses, (such as jails and courts?), and others thought it might be good to keep industrial.

It would be interesting to hear everyone's thoughts and start that discussion again. :-)

Some promising news about the GM plant on the west sid.
http://www.ibj.com/old-gm-sites-could-receive-800-million-for-clean-up/PARAMS/article/20027

Um, I could post pics of numerous former GM plants/sites in Anderson that could use some of that money!!!

IUPUI does have to come to terms with its future of becoming a more crowded university, and hopefully at the same time a more public transit oriented university.

Or build more mixed-use buildings that include parking in the mix.

Instead of 4-story new buildings, build 6 stories and put 2-half levels and one full level of parking behind an active street face. Or build taller and mix in some student housing; the parking and housing could possibly be funded and managed by an outside private owner and the academic and office areas owned/operated by IUPUI or the Higher Ed Building Authority.

Um, I could post pics of numerous former GM plants/sites in Anderson that could use some of that money!!!

Tell me about it. I work for one of those former GM companies. ha

Hot mother this could be huge.

We had an interesting round of discussions about what could be done with this site a year or so ago.

I'd like to see it embraced for residential and commercial, helping Indy better connect with the river.

I think Aaron and others thought it might make sense for Public uses, (such as jails and courts?), and others thought it might be good to keep industrial.

It would be interesting to hear everyone's thoughts and start that discussion again. :-)

GM is in final negotiation with a buyer who would keep it as an industrial plant, using UAW labor and (likely) a two-tier wage system. That is by far the highest and best use of a huge industrial facility that is well-served by rail and highway and other infrastructure.

Nonetheless, the buyer would want it cleaned up before putting his name on the title. Since environmental liabilities are perpetual, they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. The estate of the "old GM" is probably obligated to undertake investigation and remediation of its environmental liabilities ahead of other creditor claims.

I think we need to build an amphitheater to replace Deer Creek on the GM site. Similar in feel to watching a baseball game at PNC in Pittsburgh. Skyline in the background, not in Hamilton County!!! Not a POS.

http://artfiles.art.com/5/p/LRG/6/674/GCVC000Z/mike-smith-pnc-park--pittsburgh-pennsylvania.jpg

I know there are issues with sound ordinances, but this site would actually be big enough. It is on the path of the future light rail line. It is only a few blocks from I-70. Traffic wouldn't be screwed up like it is at Deer Creek. The industrial concrete on could be recycled onsite back into the project.

I know there are probably more important things to do than build another large venue downtown... but a large outdoor amphitheater DT would be so nice! The super tiny WRSP temporary stage is kind of the idea, just done right so that all of big names come here, to Indianapolis, in the summer.

I know there are probably more important things to do than build another large venue downtown... but a large outdoor amphitheater DT would be so nice! The super tiny WRSP temporary stage is kind of the idea, just done right so that all of big names come here, to Indianapolis, in the summer.

If you're going to close Monument Circle to traffic, or if you're going to create a gathering place in Georgia Street, those will serve just fine as summer concert venues.

We need good jobs near transit for the 2/3 of Indy metro residents who do NOT have college degrees, and the GM plant is one of the places for that. Creating yet another big-box single-purpose venue downtown surrounded by seldom-used parking is wasteful in the extreme.

The GM plant pays for itself and helps support the library system, transit system, police, fire, and other city services...or didn't you read the Star article about more IndyGo cuts? More off-the-tax-rolls venues won't help and WILL hurt.

Bazbeaux to move across the street. Great news.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100519/BUSINESS/100519017/Mass-Ave.-Bazbeaux-moving-just-a-little

930 new medical distribution jobs coming to north side of Indy

http://www.ibj.com/arcadia-resources-says-it-will-add-930-jobs-/PARAMS/article/20051

Bazbeaux to move across the street. Great news.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100519/BUSINESS/100519017/Mass-Ave.-Bazbeaux-moving-just-a-little

Wow.. I wonder what will take their place in the current spot, perfect spot for a cheap burrito/mexican joint.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12505993

What you guys think?

The part that I see (the upper levels) looks nice. How tall is this thing. The artist thing does not really let us know alot. Kinda north, wish it was closer to downtown.:bash:

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12511093

Not entirely sure how I feel about this but at least it seems like the powers that be are listening to us. I don't like that they are sinking more money into this however I do support the bicycle lockers/showers and them tearing down the west wing to allow for private development. Could be interesting. :cheers:

I agree - turning the East wing into a bike center is a good thing. Its right next to the Cultural Trail and is within two blocks of 4 of the 7 tallest office buildings in downtown. The "upstairs" plans sound like something that will change things quite a bit. Right now it is all seating upstairs except for the barber shop in the west wing. I'm not too impressed about the idea of turning part of the upper level into a wedding facility. Saying your "I dos" while overlooking the Burrito Stand? Those East and West wings are so ugly now. Glad to see the western one coming down. I wonder if they'll change anything of the outside look of the East Wing. That little "cut thru" plaza with 8 parking spaces on the corner is such a waste. Hopefully we'll see more details about this soon. I'm guessing there might be a few more details mentioned during the morning speakers event at the Circle on Bike to Work Day this Friday.

Bad news: According to twitter, CorrND got hit by a truck while on his bike and broke both of his arms.

Am I missing something? I didnt see that on there. If so, that is TERRIBLE news.

I should have linked (http://twitter.com/ahow628) it.

This is terrible news.

I agree - turning the East wing into a bike center is a good thing.

Glad you like my idea (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=47224495&postcount=994).

Quote from the story:
"Schmidt noted that they want 'more vibrancy' and themed stands, 'so they're set apart from one another.'" I read this as, 'we need more chains!' They also plan to put stalls in the balconies. I'm not sure I like this whole plan.

CorrND, wish you a speedy recovery.

Woah! I hope corrnd is ok.

Direct tweet link:

http://twitter.com/ahow628/status/14335627855

Our thoughts and prayers are with you Corrnd!

Hey, here is some big news.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100520/LIVING07/5200408/Sahm-s-Bazbeaux-set-to-expand-Downtown

Bazbeuxs is moving into the 3Mass building by years end. Not neccesarily a business addition, but showing that people are willing to embrace the new building. This is a win for 3Mass. Hope that the current location can attract someone else to fill it up

I agree, the fountain is stunning and a great addition to the city, but the concrete blocks could without doubt be improved.

Did anyone here about the bus system? :(

look at the last page

If you're going to close Monument Circle to traffic, or if you're going to create a gathering place in Georgia Street, those will serve just fine as summer concert venues.

We need good jobs near transit for the 2/3 of Indy metro residents who do NOT have college degrees, and the GM plant is one of the places for that. Creating yet another big-box single-purpose venue downtown surrounded by seldom-used parking is wasteful in the extreme.

The GM plant pays for itself and helps support the library system, transit system, police, fire, and other city services...or didn't you read the Star article about more IndyGo cuts? More off-the-tax-rolls venues won't help and WILL hurt.

Easy there, I was shooting out an idea. I thought it was obvious in my post that I know it wont happen, and that it isn't the best use. It would just be nice. Thats all. I want to ride a train to a concert and never have to go up to Hamilton County ever again. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Hope you get well soon CorrND. I got run off the road about two weeks ago and luckily got away with a scraped elbow and a bruised tailbone. The driver flipped me off too! I couldn't believe it.

thanks for the messages everybody. i'm doing pretty well for now. nothing life-threatening, though two broken arms has an impact on pretty much every aspect of life.

Oh, goodness, CorrND that's awful! I'm so sorry to hear about your accident! The concerned southerner in me now comes out - like it does whenever someone I remotely know has a new baby - and I want to bring you food. I make a delicious vegetarian roasted red pepper lasagna - you probably can't use a fork very well, but it's easily slurpable if you put your face in the bowl! ;-) Seriously, email me and I'll drop one off. Get rest and get better - Donna

thanks for the messages everybody. i'm doing pretty well for now. nothing life-threatening, though two broken arms has an impact on pretty much every aspect of life.

Wow. Get better soon.

Easy there, I was shooting out an idea. I thought it was obvious in my post that I know it wont happen, and that it isn't the best use. It would just be nice. Thats all. I want to ride a train to a concert and never have to go up to Hamilton County ever again. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

I forgot to mention the State Fairgrounds. Train will run right past there. And it has plenty of parking.

thanks for the messages everybody. i'm doing pretty well for now. nothing life-threatening, though two broken arms has an impact on pretty much every aspect of life.

Sorry to hear it and wish for a speedy recovery.

So now your wife has to spoon-feed two at dinnertime? Hope you get something better than pureed carrots and peas from a jar. :lol:

CorrND, hope all goes well. These accidents can put things into perspective. Hope that you recover soon from these injuries.

thanks for the messages everybody. i'm doing pretty well for now. nothing life-threatening, though two broken arms has an impact on pretty much every aspect of life.

CorrND, sorry to hear about your accident!!! Where were you when you got hit? Having two broken arms sounds rough. Let us know if you need help getting around.

Sorry to hear about your accident as well, CorrND (as I posted on your blog). Hopefully it wasn't a hit and run? You're typing wonderfully, at any rate. Best wishes to a speedy recovery.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, CorrND, and I hope you recover quickly.

As a part-time bike commuter, I would be interested to read the details, but certainly understand if you don't want to share them right now.

I took a detour out of my commute this morning to see how many people were on the Monon this morning. I saw several groups of bikes headed south which was encouraging.

I wish that my job gave me the option of biking to work. I was pretty jealous seeing it this morning. kudos to anyone who does it daily

simple description: i was going east on 18th at meridian, a truck turned right just in front of me (no signal on), i braked hard and flipped over the handlebars. several observers said the back of the truck also ran over me, though er docs doubt that due to the lack of injuries. it happened so fast that i have no clue. in any case i'm very lucky.

simple description: i was going east on 18th at meridian, a truck turned right just in front of me (no signal on), i braked hard and flipped over the handlebars. several observers said the back of the truck also ran over me, though er docs doubt that due to the lack of injuries. it happened so fast that i have no clue. in any case i'm very lucky.

Yes you are. A friend of mine died under similar but less dramatic circumstances a few years ago. he fell off his bike while avoiding a collision (his fault, not the vehicle, he ran a stop sign) and landed with his chest taking most of the impact on a curb. He crushed his chest basically. He never woke up. He wasn't even going very fast, he just landed badly.

Glad you're still with us. I'll keep you in my prayers.

simple description: i was going east on 18th at meridian, a truck turned right just in front of me (no signal on), i braked hard and flipped over the handlebars. several observers said the back of the truck also ran over me, though er docs doubt that due to the lack of injuries. it happened so fast that i have no clue. in any case i'm very lucky.

Glad to know that you don't have any life-threatening injuries.

thanks for the messages everybody. i'm doing pretty well for now. nothing life-threatening, though two broken arms has an impact on pretty much every aspect of life.

Dude that totally sucks. Not to make light of your situation but how mobile are you? It reminds me of that Jack-Ass skit a few years back with Johnny Knoxville. Both arms were in a brace and he needed help with his zipper to pee.

http://video.au.msn.com/watch/video/mtv-jackass-series-1-highlights-package-2-clip-5-broken-arms/q683jp01

simple description: i was going east on 18th at meridian, a truck turned right just in front of me (no signal on), i braked hard and flipped over the handlebars. several observers said the back of the truck also ran over me, though er docs doubt that due to the lack of injuries. it happened so fast that i have no clue. in any case i'm very lucky.

Youch. I've been in a similar situation, flipped over my handlebars while trying to avoid a collision (this was going down a hill in Philadelphia). I ended up landing on my elbow and causing a spasm and tissue damage to my deltoid and had to wear a sling--couldn't lift the arm upward for about four months. Sounds like it still was the drivers' faults in both of our instances, but both of us got lucky compared to what it could have been. All the best during the recovery period!

I have been taking walks downtown and have just started noticing how overpowering some of our buildings are. The five tallest and the new hotel are huge when at their bases. I've also noticed how European the wholesale district, circle, and war memorial mall are.

I have also walked around the old banking center and have seen in person what an eyesore it is. It is a harbor for homeless and is littered with trash. Does anyone know the status of the apartments that were supposed to be built there? The public hearing sign has fallen off the fence and the project seems abandoned.

The Glick Eye Care facility is coming along.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S_cNAY3pw6I/AAAAAAAAEmI/F5eByDtCnDM/s640/photo%203.jpg

Progress on the new garage at Blackford and Michigan.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S_cNAh2Q_fI/AAAAAAAAEmM/YOmlQc04QfU/s640/photo%204.jpg

Demo for new Wishard
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S_cM_To9V6I/AAAAAAAAEmA/C72brvUzLc0/s640/photo.jpg

34 North Meridian, which I am impressed with. (I ride by it at least twice a day) It is nothing cutting edge, but at least there is plenty of exterior detail. It could have been something much lower quality. Although, once it has been complete for 6 months I probably won't notice it at all.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S_cM3wfY69I/AAAAAAAAElo/nFutLzttZfw/s640/photo.jpg

Back detail.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_weBy68KZy-I/S_cM4FwOK3I/AAAAAAAAEls/PtiLwl8LrWk/s640/photo%202.jpg

Hey, I forgot about the Glick Eye Care Facility. Is that the height it will be? Any renderings about this? Thanks.

Hey, I forgot about the Glick Eye Care Facility. Is that the height it will be? Any renderings about this? Thanks.

http://www.iueye.iu.edu/images/ophthal/GlickCenternew.jpg

http://facilityplanning.iusm.iu.edu/images/projects/Glick.jpg http://indianapolis-indiana.funcityfinder.com/files/2010/02/Glick-Eye-Institute-artist-rendering.jpg

Not sure how up to date these are.

Of course at the meeting there was some old fart who sounded like one of the anti everything grumps that post on the indystar website. His argument was that "fir $10b we could buy half a million cars!"

And what in the hell would that do to reduce congestion and air pollution?

IndyGo might be making big cuts, but the I-69 construction is being accelerated. Indy and Evansville will have a direct 4 lane connection in only 4 1/2 years!!

"Top Ten Most Underrated Cities In America"
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-interests-34348516

Kansas City, Louisville, Pittsburgh & MINNIapolis are all listed however.

Is there anything going on with the bank one operations center building? Does this thing still have a pulse?

Is there anything going on with the bank one operations center building? Does this thing still have a pulse?

I've been wondering the same thing! I've just asked a friend who works for the city.

And in the meantime, just found this! (This hasn't been posted here, right?)

http://www.milhausventures.com/development/vertical-mixed-use/urban/bank-one.html

http://www.milhausventures.com/development/vertical-mixed-use/urban/images/bank-one.jpg

"Starting in 2001, Mr. Miller began his attempts to purchase from Bank One the former Bank One Operations Center in downtown Indianapolis. After multiple bank ownership changes and several failed attempts for redevelopment by both the City of Indianapolis and other developers on the project, Mr. Miller has found his opportunity to bring this project to life.

This project is going to be a long term project, composed of at least 2-3 phases of development. The first phase of this project is proposed to be approximately 275 apartment units on 2 acres, with parking in the existing parking garage across Market Street to the North and underground. In addition, on grade level of the building, it is intended that there will be approximately 5000 – 10,000 square feet of service retail. The project will take advantage of the existing structure of the former Bank One Operations Center because of the buildings heavily reinforced structure that allows there to be three additional stories built on above the existing roofline. This will make the building 5 actual stories above grade, but with 14+ foot clear heights in the existing building it will be the height of a typical 6+ residential building. This structure also provides the ability to create a rooftop deck area with a swimming pool, all overlooking the City of Indianapolis skyline.

One of the most exciting parts of the development is its commitment to going green. This project is planning on being a Silver LEED approved project and is going to be experimenting with multiple potential sources of alternative energy including solar water heat, photovoltaic electrical power, and potentially a geothermal heating system."

^^

And I must say, this rendering of the building looks MUCH better than the initial renderings they released.

Yea it doesnt look like a cardboard box ;)

Is there anything going on with the bank one operations center building? Does this thing still have a pulse?

JUST asking the same thing this weekend

Just curious what people think about the former owner of Hollywood bar and filmworks (Used to be located above Crackers comedy DT) recently receiving a 5 figure payroll tax refund from the IRS. He basically proved the the Pacers/Fieldhouse/CIB imposed a hardship on his business equivalent to a hurricane or other natural disaster because his patrons ceased to find cheap parking. He stated that this forced him to close the business.

Here's the details..
http://www.ibj.com/conseco-fieldhouse-feud-results-in-tax-refund-for-theater-owner/PARAMS/article/20124

I went there a number of times and really never had an issue with parking..but I'm not above walking a few blocks to my destinations..in fact on nice evenings I prefer it. My own personal opinion is that he expected suburban style parking in DT Indy. No doubt the Pacers made it a little harder for people to find a spot in the immediate vicinity, but to compare the effect of this to a natural disaster seems a little over blown.

Just curious what people think about the former owner of Hollywood bar and filmworks (Used to be located above Crackers comedy DT) recently receiving a 5 figure payroll tax refund from the IRS. He basically proved the the Pacers/Fieldhouse/CIB imposed a hardship on his business equivalent to a hurricane or other natural disaster because his patrons ceased to find cheap parking. He stated that this forced him to close the business.

Here's the details..
http://www.ibj.com/conseco-fieldhouse-feud-results-in-tax-refund-for-theater-owner/PARAMS/article/20124

I went there a number of times and really never had an issue with parking..but I'm not above walking a few blocks to my destinations..in fact on nice evenings I prefer it. My own personal opinion is that he expected suburban style parking in DT Indy. No doubt the Pacers made it a little harder for people to find a spot in the immediate vicinity, but to compare the effect of this to a natural disaster seems a little over blown.

I agree with that assessment. I notice two things: He's the only one who seems to have been affected by this "disaster," and even though his business was devastated by no fault of his own, he seems to have enough money to buy full page ads on multiple occasions to publish his rants.

I agree with that assessment. I notice two things: He's the only one who seems to have been affected by this "disaster," and even though his business was devastated by no fault of his own, he seems to have enough money to buy full page ads on multiple occasions to publish his rants.

A fun fact: This guy was arrested twice for assaulting the parking attendant working the lot next to his business. Definitely a loony with an axe to grind.

Anyone know when The Abbey coffeeshop finally closed? I just noticed the for lease signs in the window over the weekend. Perhaps it's been closed for a while? Such a shame. They used to be such a great establishment over on Mass Ave.

Anyone know when The Abbey coffeeshop finally closed? I just noticed the for lease signs in the window over the weekend. Perhaps it's been closed for a while? Such a shame. They used to be such a great establishment over on Mass Ave.

I believe it's been closed for a few years. It was only open there for a short time after it moved from Mass and College...

Anyone know when The Abbey coffeeshop finally closed? I just noticed the for lease signs in the window over the weekend. Perhaps it's been closed for a while? Such a shame. They used to be such a great establishment over on Mass Ave.

!@

Fooling around with Google this morning, discovered a neat way to learn more about Indy's history.

Google Timeline Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=indianapolis&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=cAx&sa=X&tbo=1&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbs=tl:1,tll:1820,tlh:1839&prmd=m&ei=7fP7S8-KOZTONJ7qyZ8B&oi=timeline_histogram_nav&ct=timeline-histogram&cd=1&ved=0CG0QyQEoAQ)

I believe it's been closed for a few years. It was only open there for a short time after it moved from Mass and College...

Really? I could've sworn it was open at least a couple of years ago.

There are (horrible) reviews on Yelp from '09. Hmm, a mystery!

I know they were in huge debt and I believe tax trouble. I was surprised they even stayed open, the service and food really went downhill after the relocation. And that's when I stopped paying attention.

Really? I could've sworn it was open at least a couple of years ago.

There are (horrible) reviews on Yelp from '09. Hmm, a mystery!

I know they were in huge debt and I believe tax trouble. I was surprised they even stayed open, the service and food really went downhill after the relocation. And that's when I stopped paying attention.

They have only been closed about 6 months. The owners are a friend of a friend. I heard they moved to texas because of a lucrative catering opportunity. You're right though..the service went way down hill the past couple years.

They have only been closed about 6 months. The owners are a friend of a friend. I heard they moved to texas because of a lucrative catering opportunity. You're right though..the service went way down hill the past couple years.

Thanks for the info.

It's really too bad, they were such a community asset in the past.

I agree with that assessment. I notice two things: He's the only one who seems to have been affected by this "disaster," and even though his business was devastated by no fault of his own, he seems to have enough money to buy full page ads on multiple occasions to publish his rants.

A fun fact: This guy was arrested twice for assaulting the parking attendant working the lot next to his business. Definitely a loony with an axe to grind.

I think his business might have been more hurt by customers who didn't like the smoky air, filthy bathrooms, sticky floors and tables, and overpriced food and beer than by lack of parking.

^^

and the fact that the food sucked...and the theatre at Circle Centre opening I am sure didn't help.

I also heard that The Abbey was unaware that there were plans to put a coffee shop on the inside of the library when they chose that spot for relocation.

I drove by the new development at St. Clair and Capitol today and it SUCKS! Looks very cheap, like it is made of cardboard panels with cheap stonework on the front. It kind of reminds me of a mobile home.

http://t4america.org/blog/2010/05/25/emergency-transit-funding-bill-introduced-tell-your-senators-to-support-it/

Emergency public transportation bill in senate

I drove by the new development at St. Clair and Capitol today and it SUCKS! Looks very cheap, like it is made of cardboard panels with cheap stonework on the front. It kind of reminds me of a mobile home.

So make up your mind already.

It's a libertarian's dream of urban revitalization: a private infill development.

Are you now suggesting that someone should tell the developer what and how to build?

So make up your mind already.

It's a libertarian's dream of urban revitalization: a private infill development.

Are you now suggesting that someone should tell the developer what and how to build?

Well said. Even though I'm not a huge fan of the said design, it's still much better than letting that lot rot and be off the taxpayer's dime. And they (developers) didn't ask for any city assistance which is almost unprecedented for downtown. This is coming from me, who happens to be a very particular critic of urban architecture. :)

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12545942 :banana:

So make up your mind already.

It's a libertarian's dream of urban revitalization: a private infill development.

Are you now suggesting that someone should tell the developer what and how to build?

lol

So make up your mind already.

It's a libertarian's dream of urban revitalization: a private infill development.

Are you now suggesting that someone should tell the developer what and how to build?

No I am not so do yourself a favor and stop putting words in my mouth. They have the right to build what they want with their own land, but I also have to right to think it looks like a cheap piece of crap. Im just glad you are petty enough to bring up my politics every chance you get. Grow up! :mad2:

So make up your mind already.

It's a libertarian's dream of urban revitalization: a private infill development.

Are you now suggesting that someone should tell the developer what and how to build?

This seems like a ridiculous statement! Isn’t this a forum about design and architecture? Are you saying we should only critique publicly funded buildings?

So make up your mind already.

It's a libertarian's dream of urban revitalization: a private infill development.

Are you now suggesting that someone should tell the developer what and how to build?

I think you're trying to make the point that lack of regulation and urban planning guidelines encourage crap development.. and you're right of course.

But, your comments are a bit out of place here. He's just critiquing a crap development.

My 2 cents.

So make up your mind already.

It's a libertarian's dream of urban revitalization: a private infill development.

Are you now suggesting that someone should tell the developer what and how to build?

To be fair, isn't that why a regional center design guide was written? Not that I disagree with you much sir, but just saying

No I am not so do yourself a favor and stop putting words in my mouth. They have the right to build what they want with their own land, but I also have to right to think it looks like a cheap piece of crap. Im just glad you are petty enough to bring up my politics every chance you get. Grow up! :mad2:

1. I didn't "put words in your mouth", I asked a direct question: in light of your evaluation of the project, do you now think it's appropriate to have design guidelines regulate private projects? That's fair game for further discussion on this board.

2. I have never called out your politics before this. But you (and one or two other posters) inject politics into many arguments, and they're certainly fair game in context, as here.

3. Calling out someone's development work in progress is immature. Most things don't look very good before they're complete; the Cultural Trail construction zones look like crap, as does the Old St. Vincent hulk right now.

I think you're trying to make the point that lack of regulation and urban planning guidelines encourage crap development.. and you're right of course.

Not exactly my point. While lack of regulation may allow what some see as "crap development", the presence of guidelines doesn't necessarily prevent the same.

In the end, neither market forces nor regulation will save us from bad design, and neither will necessarily call forth good design. Builders and developers will (as they always have) try to minimize costs while providing the amenities required by their target audience. Not everyone cares about, or can afford, the level of design and construction that observers may think is warranted.

But, your comments are a bit out of place here. He's just critiquing a crap development.

My 2 cents.

It's really premature to be offering a definitive statement about the building's appearance, since it is still under construction. Likewise its community impact.

Ultimately, there's far more to a development than design and I don't think it's fair to label this "a crap development."

This is the first almost-100% hard-surfaced development in Indianapolis that uses permeable pavement to reduce stormwater flow off site.

Also, it will bring more residents to "the parking lots of the outback" in the NW quadrant of downtown, and help support nearby retail and services.

While it may not look as nice as some would want, it seems to meet a lot of objectives for downtown that many who comment here share: good density, nice green feature, good location.

It's worth noting that not a single bit of the final exterior on Sarojo Commons is present yet. I'm not hopeful that it's going to look very good, but I agree that's it's premature to be grading the project based on concrete block, 2x4s and wallboard.

Looks like the mayor's office has a plan to preserve the cuts for IndyGO.

Just a prop up for the short term

http://www.indy.gov/eGov/Mayor/PR/2010/Documents/PR%20--%20052710%20MAYOR%20BALLARD%20PROPOSES%20SHORT-TERM%20SOLUTION%20FOR%20PROJECTED%20INDYGO%20BUDGET%20SHORTFALL.pdf

CorrND: "It's worth noting that not a single bit of the final exterior on Sarojo Commons is present yet. I'm not hopeful that it's going to look very good, but I agree that's it's premature to be grading the project based on concrete block, 2x4s and wallboard."

Maybe you haven't been by the site in the past two or three days. I hadn't said much -- because I am happy to see infill residential going in on a former undeveloped corner lot - in a decent location of downtown needing development - and don't want to criticize someone who isn't getting any govt assistance --- BUT -- there is more than concrete blocks, drywall and 2x4s now. They have started putting up these pseudo stone panels along the St. Clair St side. It kind of reminds me of the tan rivier stones you'd find on the interior walls of an 80's "canyon creek" themed restaurant. Looks prpetty dated, to say the least --- but, maybe hopefully they'll find enough buyers interested in that look. It kind of works down in Brown County.
__________________

No I am not so do yourself a favor and stop putting words in my mouth. They have the right to build what they want with their own land, but I also have to right to think it looks like a cheap piece of crap. Im just glad you are petty enough to bring up my politics every chance you get. Grow up! :mad2:

I have to agree with cdc in that politics are intertwined with many development issues, and various posters, including you, often interject their political views into discussions (and to be fair, I believe we all do occasionally).

So, long as individuals do not resort to name-calling, personal abuse, or ad hominem arguments, I believe that broad and free debate should be encouraged on this message board. Cdc asked a provocative question, but he did not make an insulting remark (or at least not a remark that could reasonably be interpreted as an insult), so I see no reason for you to be grumpy nor any reason he should "grow up."

Maybe you haven't been by the site in the past two or three days. I hadn't said much -- because I am happy to see infill residential going in on a former undeveloped corner lot - in a decent location of downtown needing development - and don't want to criticize someone who isn't getting any govt assistance --- BUT -- there is more than concrete blocks, drywall and 2x4s now. They have started putting up these pseudo stone panels along the St. Clair St side. It kind of reminds me of the tan rivier stones you'd find on the interior walls of an 80's "canyon creek" themed restaurant. Looks prpetty dated, to say the least --- but, maybe hopefully they'll find enough buyers interested in that look. It kind of works down in Brown County.
You're right, it was two days ago I last went by and nothing was up yet. I saw the stone panels on my way home from work today (first day back since my accident). The stone is pretty bad, much as I had expected.

Wait, widening the pavement on 38th?! Traffic already blows through there at about 45mph. They don't need to be going any faster.

Unfortunately, I was out of town last week. I hope someone was able to go and speak some sense about how to locate a sidewalk.

In the end, neither market forces nor regulation will save us from bad design, and neither will necessarily call forth good design. Builders and developers will (as they always have) try to minimize costs while providing the amenities required by their target audience. Not everyone cares about, or can afford, the level of design and construction that observers may think is warranted.



It's really premature to be offering a definitive statement about the building's appearance, since it is still under construction. Likewise its community impact.

Ultimately, there's far more to a development than design and I don't think it's fair to label this "a crap development."

This is the first almost-100% hard-surfaced development in Indianapolis that uses permeable pavement to reduce stormwater flow off site.

Also, it will bring more residents to "the parking lots of the outback" in the NW quadrant of downtown, and help support nearby retail and services.

While it may not look as nice as some would want, it seems to meet a lot of objectives for downtown that many who comment here share: good density, nice green feature, good location.

I'm gonna disagree on some of these points. I didn't know about the use of permeable pavement, and I'm using my fuzzy memory of the renderings I saw, but I couldn't imagine a building doing a worse job of addressing the corner on which it sits. Unless they've changed the plans, and I haven't driven it by lately, the design is like an "L" except without the part at the corner. Maybe better said, it's a couple of rectangles that don't meet at the corner, and don't have windows on the ends facing the corner. I'm not sure how you could make that worse.

I'm hearing a lot in your argument that sounds something like: 'Well, since nothing had been occurring at this site until this developer proposed something, and they're not asking for a subsidy, we shouldn't require good urban design. Because if we do, the developer might go away, and then nothing would ever happen here.'

Let me know if I'm putting the wrong words in your mouth. My opinion is that this is the type of philosophy that has led to us getting lots of low-quality development that doesn't contribute to the quality of life of the City for decades and decades.

Well -- at least they're putting in sod and landscaping in the medians and new curbs and sidewalks. Trees in medians help slow down traffic a little. Maybe it'll even out any speed increases related to widening. (ever the optimist)

Please note, many of the new sidewalks will take the place of sidewalks that they will destroy that are currently separated from the curb by a landscape strip. I can't imagine in whose book that would be an "improvement".

There are already landscaped medians with trees all along 38th Street. This is mostly a "like-for-like" type rebuild project, except for the replacement/addition of improperly located sidewalks and crosswalks that will not attract any pedestrians and will be the location of high-speed vehicle-pedestrian collisions.

I once heard someone say something to the effect of, "You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd." And this, my friends, is a colossal turd.