Indianapolis Development News [Archive]

hoosier

August 8th, 2009, 08:34 PM

Lifeline for CIB could be lost in political waters

Some council members appear wary of public reaction to higher hotel tax

By Francesca Jarosz
francesca.jarosz@indystar.com

Days before the City-County Council is scheduled to vote on a hotel tax increase to rescue the struggling Capital Improvement Board, political posturing has put the chances of it passing in limbo.

As of Friday, the 13 members of the council's Democratic caucus and at least three of the 15 Republicans were planning to vote against the proposal, leaders in both parties said.

Members on both sides of the aisle agree that getting the CIB out of its deficit is crucial to the viability of Indianapolis' convention industry. But many are unhappy with the one solution the state legislature left them and are reluctant to take the heat for increasing taxes, particularly after the council did so two years ago and Democrats lost control as a result.

"It's between a rock and a hard place," said Council President Bob Cockrum, a Republican who supports the measure. "On one hand, they don't want to see the city go downhill, but on the other hand, politics always plays a part."

The proposal, up for a vote Monday night, would increase the county's hotel tax to 10 percent from 9 percent. The increase, which would give Indianapolis one of the highest hotel tax rates in the country, was the only option Indianapolis was given to help the CIB.

The CIB operates Indianapolis' convention center and sports stadiums and -- after a series of cuts -- still faces a $20 million deficit this year.

If the city rejects the tax hike, it will lose not only that revenue, but also $8 million a year in taxes from an expanded Downtown sports district and a state loan of $27 million over the next three years -- both of which are conditioned on the city passing the hotel tax.

Downtown business leaders and experts agree that without the funding, the future of the city's convention business -- a key financial engine and important aspect in a thriving Downtown -- could be at risk.

"If you do not continue to invest in the operation of the convention center, Indianapolis will be taken off the list as a place to go have your meeting and visit," said John Krauss, director of the Public Policy Institute at Indiana University. "We don't need to take a reason away from Indianapolis being more competitive."

Council members recognize that, but they also see a lot at stake politically.

Anti-tax fervor helped sweep Democratic Mayor Bart Peterson and some Democratic council members out of office in 2007, when the majority of party members voted to increase the county option income tax to benefit public safety.

Some Republicans fear they could face the same fate, Cockrum said, especially after many made a campaign issue out of the tax increases passed by the Democrats and others signed pledges not to increase taxes during their term.

Meanwhile, Democrats say that because the mayor is a Republican and Republicans hold the majority on the council, they should take responsibility for the vote.

"As Democrats, we had to suck it up and do a very difficult thing, and we took a lot of heat for it," said Democratic Councilwoman Jackie Nytes, referring to the 2007 vote. "We appreciate how they might be feeling, but we also know that when you're in charge, you have to stand up and lead."

Adding to the resistance for some Democrats is, they say, that Mayor Greg Ballard has not approached them to advocate for the proposal.

"I haven't gotten the kind of assurances or at least an approach from the mayor's office about the worthiness of this being passed," said William "Duke" Oliver, the council's Democratic minority whip. "I'm not going to put much value in this being a do-or-die thing."

Both the Republicans' fears and the Democrats' turnabout tactics are common in politics, said Bill Blomquist, a political science professor at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. Although they can bring issues to a standstill, they're inevitable, he said.

"It's what happens when you have elections and political parties," Blomquist said. "Unless you're willing to scrub those things out of the process, you're going to have those situations."

Despite the split over Monday's vote, both sides agree on one thing: They need a lasting solution for the CIB.

Republican Bob Lutz has drafted an amendment to the hotel tax ordinance that would give the council greater oversight of the sports board. Among other things, it would require council approval of the board's contracts with sports franchises. But that idea also is politically sensitive, and he's still mulling whether to propose the amendment Monday.

Nytes will put forth a resolution that would create a council task force to research a resolution to funding the CIB down the road.

"Whatever happens Monday night, we need something better for the long-term," Nytes said. "We need to get focused on that."
Additional Facts

Up next: The City-County Council will vote Monday on whether to raise the county's hotel tax to 10 percent from 9 percent.

hoosier

August 8th, 2009, 08:37 PM

If the city council doesn't find a way to adequately address the CIB deficit, there will be plenty of other cities in the region that would be glad to snag the conventions Indy hosts. I applaud Peterson for doing the right thing and raising the county income tax to fund more public safety services, now it is time to raise the hotel tax to keep Indianapolis's sports and convention facilities up and running.

arenn

August 9th, 2009, 07:18 PM

While I support wind power, there are some good counterpoints in this article. Good regulation is clearly needed. Some of these contracts sound suspiciously like the "broad form deeds" in eastern Kentucky coal country.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090809/BUSINESS/908090380/1305/ARCHIVE/Blowback++Indiana+s+emerging+wind+farms+whip+up+controversy

Blowback: Indiana's emerging wind farms whip up controversy
More and more critics say windmills aren't that green, aren't a great source of energy -- and can be harmful to people's health
By Jeff Swiatek
Posted: August 9, 2009

The 200- to 300-foot-long blades on industrial windmills look almost whimsical from afar.

They appear to turn slowly. People sometimes stop to take pictures. "They look cool," said Eric Burch, director of policy and outreach for the Indiana Office of Energy Development.

The tips of those giant blades, however, move at speeds approaching 160 mph, creating forces that send low-frequency vibrations through the ground. People three-quarters of a mile away sometimes say they can feel the vibrations in their chests.

Cases of nausea, headaches, insomnia and other ills have become common enough in states with wind farms that they've been given a name: "wind turbine syndrome."

That newfangled illness is just one of a growing list of health effects, inconveniences, risks and cost considerations that have resulted in a backlash against wind farms in other states, even as Indiana is in the midst of a rapid buildout of wind energy.

What's happening in other states suggests that the warm and fuzzy feeling many Hoosiers have for wind farms could change as the big turbines creep closer to more populated areas near Indianapolis, Lafayette and other cities.

Benton County farmer John Gilbert said several farmland owners he knows refused to lease space for turbines. He can't quite understand that. He and his family leased ground for four turbines being built by French-owned enXco.

"My thoughts are, they are going to have to look at 'em, so they might as well get paid."

Wind turbine energy is here. But groups have sprung up nationwide to fight it.

Jon Boone, a retired University of Maryland administrator who helped found the North American Bluebird Society, has become a leading wind-energy critic from his rural Maryland home, where he helped fight a wind farm proposal several years ago. Now he duels with the windmill lobby through his Web site, stopillwind.org.

"Wind is neither clean nor green," he said. "It's like something from the Emerald City of Oz. It's entirely political. Well-intentioned people are coming in and being ginned by promises of a better environment."

Eric Rosenbloom, who got his start in the wind energy debate fighting a wind farm near his former hometown of Kirby, Vt., now heads National Wind Watch. The nonprofit coalition of about 300 groups fights wind farm projects across the country.

"We are still fighting a denial that there is any downside to industrial wind farms," said Rosenbloom, who's seen the debate intensify since National Wind Watch formed four years ago. "There is a lot of rancor that develops in communities" when wind farms come to town, he said.

A growing industry

Fueled by federal tax credits and write-offs that can pay for up to two-thirds of their project costs, as well as state mandates requiring utilities to use "green" power, industrial wind farms have become a new industry, one of the few that is growing in the recession-racked economy.

Developers installed more megawatts of wind power in the first half of this year than last, with more than 1,000 newly erected turbines in 10 states, according to the American Wind Energy Association. There are more than 35,000 turbines across the county.

The Department of Energy is pushing for more. It wants wind farms to generate 20 percent of America's electricity demand by 2030. (It's now about 1 percent.)

And the federal government is lavishing subsidies on developers to make it happen. In fiscal 2007, wind energy developers collected $724 million in federal subsidies, putting wind behind only solar as the most subsidized energy form per megawatt hour of production.

Indiana is fast becoming a player in the wind business. One reason is because the state sits at the edge of two power grids serving the Midwest and parts beyond.

The state got its first wind farm last year, in Benton County, a wind-rich spot where more than 600 turbines are up or proposed by several developers. In at least 14 other Northern Indiana counties, where winds also blow hard, developers plan sprawling wind farms holding thousands of turbines.

Like oil wildcatters of old, agents for wind developers are persuading hundreds of Indiana landowners to sign leases that allow turbines on their land for as long as 80 years.

Steuben County attorney John J. Schwarz II compared the leasing activity with California's Gold Rush of the 1840s.

Developers have homed in on Clinton and Boone counties, trying to lock competitors out of favorable areas. And the leases are written to strongly favor the rights of the developer over the landowner, Schwarz said. For instance: Leases often don't require developers to remove turbines if the company goes bust.

"Let's say they find out 10 years from now wind energy is not the way to go. Is a guy going to be looking at a huge, useless monument on his property?" Schwarz asked.

But such considerations are hardly front and center for developers looking to profit from wind farms and landowners angling to get a turbine and the typical $5,000 to $7,500 annual lease payments that come with it.

The downside

Kenny Holbrook said he's wary of two proposals by European companies to put 100 to 260 wind turbines in western Boone County.

"Potentially, there could be one 1,000 feet from our house," said Holbrook, who lives with his wife and two children in the countryside near Advance.

"Our greatest concern is one of us will have a physical issue with it -- headaches or migraines. We'd be put in a position where our only option would be to move away from it."

New York pediatrician Dr. Nina Pierpont, who coined the term "wind turbine syndrome," compared the symptoms to seasickness. She's found an analogy to wind turbines: a passive weapon used by the Israeli army to disband unruly protesters with low frequency blasts. It is called The Scream.

Then there's the annoying "shadow flicker." It comes from the rotating blades' reflection, which creates a strobe light effect on nearby homes.

With their location in rural areas, often on ridgetops or in mountain passes, wind farms also have broad environmental impact. They require quarter-acre clear zones for the turbines and long cuts through forests for permanent service roads.

The blades, turning day and night, are efficient killers of birds and bats. Some studies show large wind farms located in migratory paths or on ridgetops can kill thousands of birds a year, though other studies put the death toll much lower.

And where would the Holbrooks move to get away from a wind farm? With hundreds of turbines proposed in the western part of the county, living choices in the area could come down to "you either live in town or in a wind farm," Holbrook said.

A hefty cost

Wind farms are hardly cheap.

One large wind farm easily can cost as much as a coal-fired plant, at $400 million to $500 million. Each turbine is $2 million to $4 million. Most are made in Europe, though production is shifting to the United States.

Unlike a coal plant that can be counted on to run at 80 percent of capacity or higher, most wind farms run at full power only 20 percent to 30 percent of the time, when the wind blows briskly.

In a modern power grid, where brownouts or dangerous power surges can occur if the flow of electricity doesn't precisely meet ever-changing demands, wind turbines aren't easy to integrate and require conventional-fuel backups, typically natural gas plants.

Boone, the Maryland critic, compared utility use of wind energy to an airline being required to fly some of its passengers on gliders.

The Midwest Independent System Transmission Operator, which runs the power grid in the Midwest, handles the growing number of wind farms being hooked into its system with a kind of tail-wagging-the-dog approach.

The power that MISO's wind farms generate is the first power assigned and used by its utility members, said Eric Laverty, director of transmission access planning for MISO.

MISO then turns to its conventional coal and gas plants to fill its remaining power needs with its boilers, which can be scaled up or down as demand warrants.

A German meteorological company hired by MISO forecasts when it can count on getting power from its wind turbines.

Dennis Stillings, who lives with his wife, Cathryn, in North Dakota within a third of a mile of two giant wind turbines, can give Indiana residents an idea of the downside some feel living near a wind farm.

"It makes sounds almost like a jet plane taking off and just hanging in the air. A whoosh, a whup. It's just about at one-second intervals."

At night, the sound seems louder and often wakes up his wife, despite her earplugs.

Bruce Buchanan is just getting used to living near four turbines built within several thousand feet of his farmhouse in Benton County. They went in service this spring.
\
So far, he doesn't mind the growling noise. But one of Buchanan's neighbors who lives near a turbine "is troubled by it because he doesn't like the sound at all. He said that to me more than once," Buchanan said.

And some tell of the odd social dynamics that wind farms can bring.

Jealousies can arise in rural communities as developers seek out the owners of favorably located land to receive the coveted lease payments, while others are left out in the cold, forced to view the turbines from their front porches or backyards but not get a nickel of revenue from them.

When wind farms move in, "there is a whole range of reasons why people get upset. That's a fact," Stillings said.

At a Christmas party, "I brought up wind turbines, and the room just went silent. There are lifelong friends who won't even talk to each other."

SwimINindy

August 10th, 2009, 06:45 PM

Does anyone know when the Uptown is slated to begin construction ???

socrates#1fan

August 10th, 2009, 07:31 PM

I can't help but feel that the opposition to wind farms is an opposition to change in energy.
Being raised in a small Indiana town (less than 1000 people), green energy was seen as a 'liberal' thing that wouldn't work.
I know I'm wrong and that there are good points against it, but it just reminds me of that anti-change sort of view.
I'd rather have problems with wind farms then the problems we are having with oil.

arenn

August 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM

Does anyone know when the Uptown is slated to begin construction ???

The Uptown doesn't have financing and may never get it.

Mr Peanut

August 10th, 2009, 09:59 PM

^^ That reminds me, I was also wondering if anyone knows anything about the Monon Place project in Broad Ripple. I thought that was all set to go, but nothing has happened in over a year since they got the hard-fought zoning variance.

SwimINindy

August 11th, 2009, 12:13 AM

The Uptown doesn't have financing and may never get it.

Hmm .... My boyfriend just signed a lease at an apartment across the street this afternoon, and supposedly the landlords in the area were told demolition of the current structures was to begin in the next several weeks .... I'd love to see this project take off. It definitely has the potential to change that entire node.

cdc guy

August 11th, 2009, 12:29 AM

Hmm .... My boyfriend just signed a lease at an apartment across the street this afternoon, and supposedly the landlords in the area were told demolition of the current structures was to begin in the next several weeks .... I'd love to see this project take off. It definitely has the potential to change that entire node.

Demolition would get the property owner off the hook for property taxes on the structures. He'd only owe taxes on the raw land next year.

thehoss257

August 11th, 2009, 07:02 AM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3491/3809797169_eee83a0c49_o.jpg
Skyline with outline of JW Marriott

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2668/3810611852_36ab748605_o.jpg
Skyline with convention hotels constrained with traditional blocks and alleys.

I took a blurry picture with my camera phone last week from the west bank of the White River. The skyline is really starting to stretch out with the new Marriott hotel complex.

Unfortunately, the impact could have been much more dramatic. I think we really need to encourage our city to re-establish vacated alleys whenever possible. It seems like so many recent downtown projects unnecessarily sprawl over entire blocks or even multiple blocks. Too many streets and alleys have been vacated which has allowed too many short, suburban style buildings that don't engage the street. Examples that come to mind are the Westin, Marriott, JW Marriott and numerous parking garages.

UrbanIndy

August 11th, 2009, 01:26 PM

Unfortunately, the impact could have been much more dramatic. I think we really need to encourage our city to re-establish vacated alleys whenever possible. It seems like so many recent downtown projects unnecessarily sprawl over entire blocks or even multiple blocks. Too many streets and alleys have been vacated which has allowed too many short, suburban style buildings that don't engage the street. Examples that come to mind are the Westin, Marriott, JW Marriott and numerous parking garages.

Good point about the alleys and streets. Our downtown city blocks are pretty large, which is not good for walkability. One of the things that makes Portland unique is that their city blocks are about half the area of most other American downtowns.

cdc guy

August 11th, 2009, 03:10 PM

Good point about the alleys and streets. Our downtown city blocks are pretty large, which is not good for walkability. One of the things that makes Portland unique is that their city blocks are about half the area of most other American downtowns.

Ours used to be. If you look closely at today's downtown aerials/maps, you can still see the remnants of the "back streets" platted by Ralston in the Mile Square: Court St., Wabash St., Tippecanoe St., Scioto St., Pierson St. are a few, in addition to the diagonals.

The "superblock campus" design west of Capitol makes for one-mile "four block walks": One time I decided to walk from the Artsgarden to WRSP after a meeting, thinking it was "just" four blocks. Whew! That fourth block from West St. to Schumacher Drive is a long one. :)

CorrND

August 11th, 2009, 03:31 PM

Ours used to be. If you look closely at today's downtown aerials/maps, you can still see the remnants of the "back streets" platted by Ralston in the Mile Square: Court St., Wabash St., Tippecanoe St., Scioto St., Pierson St. are a few, in addition to the diagonals.
I'm not sure Ralston platted those as real streets. I've heard a rumor that the alleys were only given full street names because it allowed Indianapolis to claim them as additional street-miles in an old funding formula for roads.

UrbanIndy

August 11th, 2009, 04:48 PM

I'm not sure Ralston platted those as real streets. I've heard a rumor that the alleys were only given full street names because it allowed Indianapolis to claim them as additional street-miles in an old funding formula for roads.

I've heard another fun rumor about this: the alleys have street names because it wasn't legal for people to open bars along an unnamed street.

cdc guy

August 11th, 2009, 10:44 PM

CorrND

August 12th, 2009, 12:14 AM

I've heard another fun rumor about this: the alleys have street names because it wasn't legal for people to open bars along an unnamed street.Someone told me that once too (cannot remember who anymore).
I like that rumor better. ;)

I wonder what the real reason is. The only thing I know is that those alley names aren't on the Ralston plans that you see places.

thundermutt

August 12th, 2009, 03:16 AM

I've heard another fun rumor about this: the alleys have street names because it wasn't legal for people to open bars along an unnamed street.

Considering the existence of the Alley Cat in BR, I'd say that law is long gone. :cheers:

BosartBrown

August 12th, 2009, 03:36 AM

Considering the existence of the Alley Cat in BR, I'd say that law is long gone. :cheers:

But no beer on Sundays still. I wonder if its legal to sell beer on Sundays along an unnamed alley?

Sunday_Bloody_Sundae

August 12th, 2009, 04:25 AM

There are homes in alleys in the old northside. I believe 13th street is basically an alley and there are homes located on it.

ablerock

August 12th, 2009, 09:00 PM

First round of photos from my trip to Detroit:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ablerock/sets/72157622019337802/

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2641/3814014649_a94e76ece6.jpg

cailes

August 12th, 2009, 09:27 PM

I was looking at those earlier and marvelling. Job well done!!

mmheidelberger

August 12th, 2009, 10:37 PM

There are homes in alleys in the old northside. I believe 13th street is basically an alley and there are homes located on it.

There are also houses and apartments on Arch street a few blocks to the south which is also an alleyway...

cwilson758

August 13th, 2009, 04:08 PM

arenn

August 13th, 2009, 05:08 PM

Interesting comparative:

http://www.stlurbanworkshop.com/2009/08/central-west-end-takes-first-big-step.html

Indy Rock

August 13th, 2009, 10:36 PM

At least our CVS @ 16th & Meridian is built to the corner, and looks rather urban in nature. :)

JohnM Indy

August 14th, 2009, 04:29 PM

I'm not sure if it's development news, but on "car free Friday," of all days, I had to shake my head at this sight near the entrance to a city-owned MSA parking lot:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hktgbCsHjjo/SoVz7Rb_6EI/AAAAAAAAAPA/Izx2WGhpp5k/s1600/IMG00015-20090814-0755.jpg

(looking south along Alabama with the City-County Building visible in the upper right, for those who can't place it).

At least it's not a permanent structure, but talk about oblivious. Between this and that scissor lift that has been parked inside a section of chain link fence and blocking the pedestrian portion of the Cultural Trail for months, it's hard to be enthused about the city's support of this fine resource.

socrates#1fan

August 14th, 2009, 08:47 PM

First round of photos from my trip to Detroit:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ablerock/sets/72157622019337802/

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2641/3814014649_a94e76ece6.jpg

Wow that is beautiful! :)
Beautiful photos!

socrates#1fan

August 14th, 2009, 08:51 PM

JohnM Indy

August 14th, 2009, 09:05 PM

benjaminooo

August 14th, 2009, 09:42 PM

People for Urban Progress posted a video with some public opinion on public transit in Indianapolis.. I thought you folks would be interested.

http://www.vimeo.com/6100567

ablerock

August 14th, 2009, 10:21 PM

ablerock

August 14th, 2009, 10:27 PM

^^

Also, that's a city-owned parking lot correct? WTF

Indy Rock

August 14th, 2009, 10:43 PM

You guys probably think I'm crazy. I swear it showed up in the preview. This is what I'm talking about (and it's still there at 3 pm).

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/jwm74/IMG00015-20090814-0755.jpg

Honestly, if I saw that I would probably A) move it or B) bitch to the parking lot people until they find a more appropiate place for it. That shit is disgusting. :ohno: :bash: :(

Mr Peanut

August 14th, 2009, 10:43 PM

^^

Also, that's a city-owned parking lot correct? WTF

Yep. Couldn't hurt to email that pic to the mayor's office. That's an unacceptable abuse of the Cultural Trail. You would never see something like that in a vehicle lane.

GarfieldPark

August 15th, 2009, 03:40 AM

Nice to hear about Republic Airlines beating out Southwest Airlines in the acquisition bid for Frontier Airlines (a few weeks after also acquiring Midwest Airlines). Hopefully there will be some job increases in Indy as a result of the acquisition. Denver bloggers on the IndyStar comment board are insisting that there will be moves of headquarters jobs from Indy to Denver. We'll see.

pig

August 15th, 2009, 05:59 AM

Chase Tower's crown was unlit tonight. Boo on that.

One Indiana Square's new lighting scheme looked quite fetching from LOS, though.

idyllic indy

August 15th, 2009, 06:21 AM

Yep. Couldn't hurt to email that pic to the mayor's office. That's an unacceptable abuse of the Cultural Trail. You would never see something like that in a vehicle lane.

That would probably be the better place to which to move it.

idyllic indy

August 15th, 2009, 06:27 AM

At least our CVS @ 16th & Meridian is built to the corner, and looks rather urban in nature. :)

Hmmm... I walked around there recently, and call me crazy, but... I like the Walgreen's better. It wastes less land (has about a dozen less parking spaces) and doesn't appear to be something it's not (they're both one-story, single-use convenience store/pharmacies). The brick on the Walgreen's building looks more attractive to me. Also, the entrance is closer to the sidewalk. Plopping the building on the corner, with service areas backing up to the corner, does nothing for me if you have to walk around the building to get inside. It's actually less convenient for someone walking from 16th Street or farther north.

Indy Rock

August 15th, 2009, 08:24 AM

http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_Full.asp?content=43945 :ohno:

arenn

August 15th, 2009, 06:19 PM

http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_Full.asp?content=43967

Airport CEO in pursuit of revenue
Clark seeks to reduce costs, diversify income streams
Sat. August 15 - 2009
Chris O’Malley - comalley@ibj.com
IBJ staff

John D. Clark III took over as CEO of the Indianapolis Airport Authority in April. percent. Airport revenue is expected to fall $15 million below projections for this year. And the airport now pays a roughly $40-million-ayear mortgage on the new Weir Cook terminal. Clark managed to help grow revenue and air service as head of the Jacksonville Aviation Authority, and Indianapolis officials hope the veteran airport manager can do the same here. Clark recently spoke with IBJ about challenges facing the airport.

IBJ: What’s your impression of Indianapolis International?

CLARK: I look at Indianapolis International and think, “Wow, we have a brand new terminal facility that’s state of the art—that has considerable capacity to take us into the future. We have runway capacity that will take us into the future. We have FedEx sitting here, which is the second-largest hub they have. We sit right in the middle of many national highway systems. So it’s a dream.

IBJ: What challenges do you see?

CLARK: One of the challenges I see is, most of our revenues are derived based on passenger activity. I think we need to begin to look at how to diversify our revenues. And what I mean by that is the concessions, the parking—people flying generate the largest portion of our revenue. So when traffic is down, then revenue is down. So that’s a direct hit for any associated business here. My hope is that we will begin to look at ways to put some other types of development in place so we’re not dependent on people flying in and out of Indianapolis.

IBJ: Didn’t Jacksonville have more diversified sources of income?

CLARK: When I was in Jacksonville, one of the things that I pushed in terms of making Jacksonville financially self-sufficient in every respect was, one, driving down the cost that the airlines paid to the airport to operate there. The second piece of that is creating revenue opportunities that did not depend on whether people were flying in and out. The advantage to that is, we can then keep the cost to the airlines down. And when you’re a secondary market, as Indianapolis is, we’ve got to be very competitive in our pricing. Next year, the airlines’ agreement expires here [with the authority]. So where we have to be is in a position where, “Look, we’ve taken on this new terminal and, yes, it has high debt associated with it but here are the steps we are taking to ensure that your cost of business doesn’t continue to grow here.”

IBJ: What is the potential here for reducing costs and diversifying revenue?

CLARK: Logistically, I think we are set up very well. We have instant access to a highway system. We have FedEx out here. We have a runway system where there are no delays. I think we are one of the best airports in terms of managing runway operations in winter months. So there’s a lot of pluses that we have. It’s packaging that. It’s working with the convention and visitors association. It’s working with the [Eli] Lillys, it’s working with the WellPoints, it’s working with the companies here to understand, for example, what kind of conferences are coming into Indy in the next two or three years.

So by partnering with other businesses in this community, we get an opportunity to kind of see the growth opportunities. Where is the next interest and thrust in terms of a market? And then we can pitch that. We can say [to airlines], “Historically this is where the numbers have been from Indy to, say, San Diego or San Francisco. However, did you realize in the next three years we have ‘X’ number of conferences and the base of those people are coming out of the western region?”

So not only do we have the historical data, but we have the prospective data. And there are certain extrapolations that, “OK, here’s the kind of yields you can get out of nonstop service.”

IBJ: What kind of cost-cutting, revenue-enhancing targets do you have?

CLARK: We haven’t penned a number. But the biggest driver is looking at what the airlines’ cost per enplaned passenger is. … I’ll give you an example. One of the things I think you have heard me speak of is, we have this beautiful terminal facility that is designed to allow a lot of natural lighting. But when I first came on board, it felt like every light that could be on was on during daylight hours. So the question being, if you have a facility designed to allow natural light, then why are we spending money on electricity? We have now shut down over 1,100 lights. And no one knows the difference.

One of the police officers came up and said, “You know, when you look at when traffic goes down, all the escalators are still running. Could we shut down a couple of those?” Well, absolutely. Could we not put sensors on those so that when they’re not in use they come to a stop? When people approach, they start working again. So it’s beginning just to think, how do we begin to affect the cost of operations?

IBJ: How about the old terminal? Are you getting close to looking at redevelopment?

CLARK: In fact, we’ve begun the process to scope it out. What we’re going to do is take a two-tier track. One, we want to solicit to the university systems here and allow them to take an academic look at it. Secondly, we want to get a company or a partnership of companies to look at the highest and best use. And the reason we want to do that is that there is as much aeronautical application as there is commercial application.

By way of example—fresh flowers. It’s a multibillion-dollar-a-year industry. But yet the two points of entry into the U.S. primarily are New York and Miami. That’s just where it comes into the country and it goes from there. Why couldn’t it be Indianapolis? So there is an aeronautical but yet a commercial application.

IBJ: Are you in a position to sell some of that land—even though some of it was paid for with federal money?

CLARK: That would be something I’d have to visit with the board about. I’ll tell you as a philosophical point of view as somebody who has done this for a long time, I’m not a real proponent of airports selling land. I’m a proponent of airports buying land and therefore they have better control. The one thing you can say about the major airports in this country is that they buy land, they create the airport and before too long there’s encroachment all along the airport. And then it’s time to grow and then you have to buy out that piece that’s now been developed.

IBJ: What got you interested in the aviation field?

CLARK: My father was in the computer business and my uncle was in the aviation business. He worked for PSA Airlines in California. Every weekend that I possibly could from elementary school on, I would literally go to work with him. So I could hang around the airport. In fact, he would put me on the planes, with flight attendants, and [I’d] fly down to San Diego or Los Angeles and hang around the airport. Then they’d put me back on a plane, and I’d come back to San Francisco. It was a very different environment back then.

[Later] I was in the Air Force. I was in California, at Fresno Airport. I did an internship there and I was offered a position once I finished. And I’ve been at it ever since. My son has taken it on. He just graduated in December from Hampton University, in aviation management.

arenn

August 15th, 2009, 06:27 PM

If you want to know where Indy really stands in the life sciences business, don't listen to what BioCrossroads says, watch what Eli Lilly does.

Here was a company that promised to add like 10,000 jobs locally at one point that has now changed directions, without a peep, and is now actively shrinking locally while building up research operations in NYC and San Diego.

I think Lilly is a very well managed company and I don't begrudge them making the decisions they feel are best. And the industry changed, not just Lilly But the way they've gone about it, silent and under the covers so to speak, is a huge opportunity lost for the city.

Lilly could have been a huge catalyst for change. It was the only company with the gravitas to make something happen. Imagine if Tobias or someone had given a speech at the Economic Club and basically said, "Our days of expanding in Indianapolis are over unless we change the game to make this a more competitive talent pool." This was company that could have gotten the city serious about dealing with infrastructure, transit, environmental, and other matters. The fact that nothing happened is a disappointment.

Lilly appears to be in a slow process of migrating out of Indianapolis, and it seems few are even aware of it.

socrates#1fan

August 15th, 2009, 11:38 PM

^^
Talk about loyalty. :ohno:

Indy Rock

August 16th, 2009, 09:31 AM

So basically, I was dickin' around on the internet and came across a Forbes article. As I searched under (breadbasket Indiana) for inspiration for this project I'm doing this came up. This puts into national perspective what Aaron and others on here have been saying about start-ups in Indy and Indiana.

Screw the whole "life sciences center" that Indiana wants to become. That's become generic now, as a plethora of other regions in America have done the same thing. We need to be the "tech hub" east of the Mississippi. The west coast can have Silicon Valley and the east coast can have Indiana! Think about it folks. It's time to refocus our energy on the emerging tech sector in this almost great state. So, let me quit yapping and post the damn article.

Finding Dough In America's Breadbasket
Maureen Farrell, 07.13.09

Once upon a time, tech entrepreneurs would forage for funding in Silicon Valley. They still do, of course, but now--even in the midst of the worst credit crisis in decades--there are other places to corral capital. Like Indiana.

Just ask Jeff Ready. A seasoned entrepreneur who in the '90s moved west from Indiana, his home state, to launch and eventually sell two start-ups backed by the likes of CMGI Ventures in Boston and venerable Sequoia Capital in Palo Alto, Calif. In 2006 Ready moved back to the breadbasket to start a data storage company called Scale Computing. This wasn't just a homecoming--it was a strategic financial decision, because Indiana is home to the 21st Century Research and Technology Fund.

Launched in 1999, the fund was created to offset anticipated losses in the manufacturing sector. Indiana's economy has long been dependent on the automotive industry, now in dire straits and pushing the state's unemployment rate near 11%. The fund awards--aimed at helping companies with promising technologies take their products to market--can run up to $5 million, but most are $2 million or less and are distributed over two years or less.

This is no loan program--Indiana does not demand its principal back, nor does it charge interest on its investments. Indiana cashes in only if entrepreneurs sell their businesses or float initial public offerings (above some multiple of taxpayers' investment).

Better yet for owners, the state caps its capital gains too. And unlike other equity investors, the state doesn't ask for board seats. It does demand, however, that entrepreneurs repay the grants--with a penalty--if they leave Indiana or if at any point at least half of the company's salaries are paid to workers living out of state.

Ready, who has worked as a consultant and angel investor since returning to Indiana, says this grant program stands out in the Midwest. "Most states are luring big companies through tax incentives," he says. "Tax incentives don't help pre-revenue start-ups."

Ready was seeking $5 million in funding earlier this year. He scored $3 million from three smaller venture funds, two in Indianapolis and one in Cincinnati, Ohio, and the 21st Century fund kicked in another $2 million. That "$5 million goes much further in Indiana than in Palo Alto," says Ready. Scale Computing expects to generate $2 million in revenue this year. Of its 20 full-time employees, six are in California, with the rest in Indiana.

Of course, with tax revenues down, so is available funding. Over the past 12 months (ended June 30), Indiana allotted $35 million to the 21st Century fund. This year, it plans to invest just $17.5 million.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/13/indiana-startup-funding-entrepreneurs-finance-indiana_print.html

^^GREAT STUFF^^

CorrND

August 17th, 2009, 03:00 AM

I finally had a chance to sit down and really look at a route. I'm thinking about 4 main locations:

1. SE downtown: Allen Plaza, new restaurant nexus (Penn/Wash), Bank One operations site, Maxwell, 3Mass

2. IUPUI: Campus Center, Simon Cancer Center, Research III, Riley Hospital Simon Tower.

3. Canal: Fairbanks Hall, Cosmo, Cultural Trail North Corridor

4. SW downtown: JW Marriott, Convention Center

I'm thinking that we'll take the Red Line from 1 to 2, the People Mover from 2 to 3, walk down the canal for 3 to 4, then walk through downtown back to the start. I estimate around 2.5-3 miles of total walking, depending on exactly what route we take.

Any suggestions or comments?

Reminder to all interested in attending (doesn't matter if you voted on times): we'll be meeting at 9am on Saturday, August 22nd.

arenn

August 17th, 2009, 03:52 AM

I won't be able to attend this year. Sorry. Enjoy!

CorrND

August 17th, 2009, 04:05 AM

We'll miss you and your keen insight Aaron!

cailes

August 17th, 2009, 09:40 PM

Did anyone catch this blurb about the plastics industry fighting back against communities banning grocery bags??

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090817/BUSINESS/908170302/Seattle+faces+test+on+grocery+bag+fees

UrbanIndy

August 17th, 2009, 09:53 PM

This made me laugh:

"said Stephen Joseph, an attorney representing SaveThePlasticBag.com"

Won't someone please think of the plastic bags?

socrates#1fan

August 18th, 2009, 02:22 AM

Please.. don't save your environment...
Let us help kill your future. :)

hoosier

August 18th, 2009, 02:29 AM

hoosier

August 18th, 2009, 02:34 AM

I-69 project: Can state finish what it started?

Analysis suggests big cost overruns, but officials say the money's there

By Bill Ruthhart
bill.ruthhart@indystar.com

Construction on the I-69 extension from Indianapolis to Evansville has entered its second year, but state reports show early stages of the project could run at least $120 million over budget.

Building the new highway from the state's capital to its southwestern corner has been controversial because of the farmland, forests and homes it will swallow.

But as the first of the 141 miles of new highway is paved near Evansville, state officials are facing fresh scrutiny that the $700 million they have to build the first three sections of the highway may not be enough to finish those sections. That amount was set aside for the project when Gov. Mitch Daniels and lawmakers approved a lease of the Indiana Toll Road in 2006.

Detailed design studies, which include estimates for construction, engineering, design and land acquisitions for the stretch from Evansville to Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center, project a cost of $986 million to $1.2 billion.

That's as much as $500 million more than the state has budgeted.

"That $700 million: There's no way that gets them to Crane. No way," said Thomas Tokarski, president of Citizens for Appropriate Rural Roads, a leading I-69 opposition group. "They're going to run out of money."

The Indiana Department of Transportation disagrees.

INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield said the $700 million budget contemplated costs associated only with building the initial stretch of roadway and did not include engineering, design and land acquisition expenses.

Those costs, he said, always were to be covered by INDOT's regular funding.

"The $700 million is our budget," Wingfield said. "At this point, we feel very confident that we can get these three sections built with the resources we have."

An analysis of state studies by The Indianapolis Star, however, shows that INDOT's estimates for construction alone range from $820 million to $989 million, or $120 million to $189 million over budget.

What's more, those estimates are in 2010 dollars, although work on the three segments is scheduled to run until 2015.

"So even by their own fuzzy math, it isn't going to get done," Tokarski said. "They need to come to the public with real numbers."

State cites savings

State transportation officials, however, point to savings already achieved in the first two contract awards.

Clarksville-based Gohmann Asphalt and Construction has been working on the first 1.77 miles of the highway near Evansville since July 2008. The company was awarded the contract for $25.2 million, almost 40 percent less than the $41.8 million INDOT had estimated.

Bloomington-based Weddle Brothers Highway Group was awarded a $13.5 million contract to build the bridge over Pigeon Creek north of Evansville, 34 percent less than the $20.6 million INDOT had planned.

"This notion that the costs have skyrocketed are in direct contrast to the construction bids that have come in," Wingfield said. "There is a high demand for this work right now, so the bids are coming in lower, and we are taking advantage of that."

Wingfield, however, did acknowledge that the budget was calculated in 2010 dollars and that "it may be appropriate for us to go back and update that."

Jane Jankowski, the governor's press secretary, said Daniels is optimistic the $700 million will be enough to build the highway to Crane, 25 miles southwest of Bloomington, or perhaps farther.

"Governor Daniels' goal is to build I-69 in the most cost-efficient manner, with the least intrusion on the land and as quickly as possible," Jankowski said. "We're seeing positive developments. Material costs are down, competition is up, and taxpayers are getting the benefit."

Wingfield said INDOT can take other cost-saving measures if needed. About $60 million can be cut, he said, by eliminating an interchange in Pike County and an interchange and rest area in Daviess County.

"Our plan is to avoid taking those steps if at all possible," he said. "That's going to depend a great deal on whether we can stick to our budget and if we have any success in applying for stimulus funds."

The project has not received federal stimulus funding because there were no shovel-ready contracts when the bill was approved.

However, the federal government plans to distribute $1.5 billion in competitive grants for transportation-related projects, and INDOT officials are working on an application for additional I-69 funding.

U.S. Rep. Brad Ellsworth, D-Evansville, has sought a $1.1 billion federal earmark for I-69 that Congress was expected to discuss this fall. However, it appears unlikely the legislation will be discussed until at least 2010.

Elizabeth Farrar, Ellsworth's press secretary, said the $1.1 billion request was based on the amount state transportation officials estimated they could spend from 2010 to 2015, the legislation's time frame.

Foes aren't giving up

Aside from the debate on whether the state can afford to build I-69 to Crane is the fact that the highway is unfunded from Crane to Indianapolis.

Unlike the first sections of the project, there will not be billions of dollars flowing to the state thanks to a one-time, 75-year lease of the state's only toll road.

For now, Wingfield said, INDOT is moving forward with preliminary studies for the remainder of the project with the assumption that it will be funded with traditional revenue.

Critics say the project will continue to get more expensive as inflation and higher construction costs factor into the later phases. Plus, they say, the cost of acquiring land in more urban areas such as Indianapolis will add to the price.

INDOT declined to place a price on the overall project. Tokarski's group has estimated at least $4 billion.

Six years after then-Gov. Frank O'Bannon's administration settled on the final route for the I-69 extension, supporters argue that whatever the final cost, the project is worthwhile. It will connect Evansville to Indianapolis through a direct interstate route, generate construction jobs and create new businesses along the corridor.

"I-69 is about more than convenience," Ellsworth said. "It's about bringing jobs and economic development."

Opponents hold out hope of stopping it.

Tokarski and John Smith, an I-69 critic who formed the opposition group Count Us, say the highway is unnecessary and is motivated by political pandering to the Evansville region. They also say it has harmful consequences: the elimination of 4,500 acres of farmland, 2,000 acres of forest, 400 homes and 125 businesses.

Both said their aim to undermine the highway's future rests on costs.

"The state has always pushed ahead and tried to make this look like a done deal, but it's not," Smith said. "They won't have the resources to build it."

Daniels' administration has its own message.

"The governor is committed to this project," Jankowski said. "It's essential to southwest Indiana and the state as a whole."
Additional Facts

$700 million Amount available from Toll Road lease to build the first three sections.

$820 million Minimum amount that state studies say is needed for construction costs for those segments.

$986 million Minimum amount that studies say is needed for construction costs, plus engineering, design and land acquisition expenses for those segments.

hoosier

August 18th, 2009, 02:35 AM

It's bullshit how some people love to ridicule and criticize high speed rail as an expensive boondoggle yet are nowhere to be found when ROAD projects end up costing a fortune, especially one as unnecessary as the I-69 extension.

hoosier

August 18th, 2009, 02:41 AM

http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_Full.asp?content=43945 :ohno:

That is why Indy won't see another office tower for quite some time.

I wouldn't mind seeing those buildings re-converted into residential units- that market is thriving in DT Indy. The residential vacancy rate is pretty small, less than 5%.

BosartBrown

August 18th, 2009, 02:49 AM

I think Lilly is a very well managed company and I don't begrudge them making the decisions they feel are best. And the industry changed, not just Lilly But the way they've gone about it, silent and under the covers so to speak, is a huge opportunity lost for the city.

Lilly will be in a world of trouble if they don't get new revenue coming in from new innovative drugs within the next 5 years. I hope their expansion in NYC and San Diego is about expanding and diversifying their talent pool to develop these drugs rather than completely moving their operations out of Indy. If they moved it would be 1 tough kick to the gut for this city. Another sizable risk is a buy out. Lilly is a big drug company but there are definitely some bigger ones that would buy them out for the right price.

CorrND

August 18th, 2009, 03:15 AM

I'm in. Where is the meetup point?
I'm thinking Washington and Pennsylvania. Maybe the Cornerstone Coffee Shop, just have to verify whether they're open on Saturday. Otherwise we'll do bring your own coffee and meet at the point in front of Fogo de Chao.

Indy Rock

August 18th, 2009, 03:35 AM

I'll be back to college that weekend. I would've loved to go though! :(

AmericanDirt

August 18th, 2009, 09:10 PM

CorrND

August 18th, 2009, 09:28 PM

Sorry to dredge up administrative details that have long been settled, but I was trying to find details on your gathering this coming weekend on the SkyscraperCity archive, but didn't have much luck. I live in the city intermittently and would love to participate in this. I know that I'm not (yet) a regular blog contributor, but I am interested in other people's perspectives and if there is an opening I will do my best to attend. I might get called out of town for work before this Saturday, but if not, I should be able to make it there. If someone could PM me with details (time, or even a URL to the portion of this thread where the plans were discussed heavily), I'd really appreciate it.
I'll just reply publicly since I want to reiterate to everybody that this is open to ANYONE that wants to attend.

You don't need to be an expert, and even though this is being organized through SSC, you don't even need to be an SSC poster. Anybody with an interest in development, architecture, construction, etc. is more than welcome to join us. Despite the number of times I've posted here, I'm 100% amateur, so don't feel intimidated.

Here's the relevant info (Dunkin Donuts is the meetup spot now, since I know they'll be open):

Skyscraper City Indy Meetup and Tour Saturday, August 22nd at 9am
Meet at the outdoor tables at the downtown Dunkin' Donuts (NW Corner of Washington and Pennsylvania)

Indy Rock

August 19th, 2009, 06:09 AM

Don't they have people checking up on these things? :ohno:

Damage to monument worse than first thought
Tue. August 18 - 2009
Associated Press

Officials say water damage caused by leaks atop the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in downtown Indianapolis are more extensive than originally thought.

The discovery means repairs to the interior of the city landmark will take longer than expected and delay by about a month the start of exterior renovations.

That exterior work had been set to start Friday and be completed by Sept. 25.

But Brig. Gen. J. Stewart Goodwin of Indiana War Memorials said that work is now expected to begin Sept. 20 and be finished by Oct. 20.

Water entered the monument through its observation deck and its "Liberty" statue, causing part of the internal support system to deteriorate. The monument sits at the center of downtown Indianapolis' Monument Circle.

Mr Peanut

August 19th, 2009, 07:14 AM

Don't they have people checking up on these things? :ohno:

Hey, the monument's still standing, isn't it? That's good enough for government work.

Seriously, I'm just glad they're doing this project now instead of waiting until the monument is on the brink of collapse.

cdc guy

August 19th, 2009, 09:45 PM

Hmmm... I walked around there recently, and call me crazy, but... I like the Walgreen's better. It wastes less land (has about a dozen less parking spaces) and doesn't appear to be something it's not (they're both one-story, single-use convenience store/pharmacies). The brick on the Walgreen's building looks more attractive to me. Also, the entrance is closer to the sidewalk. Plopping the building on the corner, with service areas backing up to the corner, does nothing for me if you have to walk around the building to get inside. It's actually less convenient for someone walking from 16th Street or farther north.

Walgreens and CVS have exactly the same number of parking spaces: 78 each. (Check an aerial.) Walgreens' lot is divided, with a little more than half their spaces right on the corner of 16th & Meridian and the rest just west of the building behind the adjacent apartments. The CVS lot looks bigger because (1) it's continuous, and (2) connected to an alley which was repaved as a commitment in their zoning case. Parking lot screening exists at CVS. There is none at Walgreen's. CVS handicapped parking is better-located in relation to the front door than Walgreens. CVS makes good use of the alley for access and circulation. Walgreens has more paved surface on its site dedicated to circulation than CVS.

The CVS front door is about 50-60 feet from the Meridian ROW with a direct sidewalk connection; Walgreens' is about 15 feet with access via funky stepping-stone arrangement or handicapped ramp. From north of CVS, a pedestrian does not have to cross a busy driveway apron to get to and from the front door as at Walgreen's. Having walked to each from the north, it's pretty much a wash.

From the east to CVS, there is a "back way" around the building for Herron-Morton and Old Northside pedestrians: a sidewalk along the alley with a crosswalk over the drive-through lane, which is far less busy than the driveway aprons. In the mirror image, access to Walgreens from the west is across a driveway apron and over the parking lot.

Overall pedestrian access to CVS is better and safer.

The Walgreens brick is "jumbo" brick. Some would say that is more suburban than urban in nature, and I'd agree. However, that's a style issue.

There is a real second story over about one-quarter to one-third of the CVS (starts at the 16th Street side), so it's not a "fake" two-story.

CVS created a tree lawn between sidewalk and curb on the 16th Street side. At Walgreens the 16th St. sidewalk is right next to the curb.

Walgreens has the big "W" box sign right up at 16th & Meridian. The CVS monument sign is much smaller and integrated with the wall-planter that screens the parking lot.

I'll grant you personal preference for Walgreens; that's not arguable. But in substantive, measurable site features defined by the Regional Center Design Guidelines, CVS is better than Walgreens (and not just by a little).

We can continue the debate on Saturday's walkabout, as we dodge utility poles in the sidewalk. :)

socrates#1fan

August 19th, 2009, 10:45 PM

Hey, the monument's still standing, isn't it? That's good enough for government work.

Seriously, I'm just glad they're doing this project now instead of waiting until the monument is on the brink of collapse.

Correction-
That's good enough for Indianapolis. :lol:
Same here, I'm glad it isn't being put off.

BTW, I think the statue is Lady Victory, not Liberty.

idyllic indy

August 20th, 2009, 07:21 AM

Walgreens and CVS have exactly the same number of parking spaces: 78 each. (Check an aerial.) Walgreens' lot is divided, with a little more than half their spaces right on the corner of 16th & Meridian and the rest just west of the building behind the adjacent apartments. The CVS lot looks bigger because (1) it's continuous, and (2) connected to an alley which was repaved as a commitment in their zoning case. Parking lot screening exists at CVS. There is none at Walgreen's. CVS handicapped parking is better-located in relation to the front door than Walgreens. CVS makes good use of the alley for access and circulation. Walgreens has more paved surface on its site dedicated to circulation than CVS.

The CVS front door is about 50-60 feet from the Meridian ROW with a direct sidewalk connection; Walgreens' is about 15 feet with access via funky stepping-stone arrangement or handicapped ramp. From north of CVS, a pedestrian does not have to cross a busy driveway apron to get to and from the front door as at Walgreen's. Having walked to each from the north, it's pretty much a wash.

From the east to CVS, there is a "back way" around the building for Herron-Morton and Old Northside pedestrians: a sidewalk along the alley with a crosswalk over the drive-through lane, which is far less busy than the driveway aprons. In the mirror image, access to Walgreens from the west is across a driveway apron and over the parking lot.

Overall pedestrian access to CVS is better and safer.

The Walgreens brick is "jumbo" brick. Some would say that is more suburban than urban in nature, and I'd agree. However, that's a style issue.

There is a real second story over about one-quarter to one-third of the CVS (starts at the 16th Street side), so it's not a "fake" two-story.

CVS created a tree lawn between sidewalk and curb on the 16th Street side. At Walgreens the 16th St. sidewalk is right next to the curb.

Walgreens has the big "W" box sign right up at 16th & Meridian. The CVS monument sign is much smaller and integrated with the wall-planter that screens the parking lot.

I'll grant you personal preference for Walgreens; that's not arguable. But in substantive, measurable site features defined by the Regional Center Design Guidelines, CVS is better than Walgreens (and not just by a little).

We can continue the debate on Saturday's walkabout, as we dodge utility poles in the sidewalk. :)

I don't know. Still looks like 64 parking spaces at Walgreen's to me. (Maybe you should check an aerial.:))

I'll grant you that CVS did a better job with their 16th Street sidewalk, hands down. The big question for me is why couldn't they have done the same along Meridian. Instead of shifting or widening the sidewalk up flush with the building, they install a landscape strip that further delineates the fraud that is the supposedly urban design achieved by constructing the building at the corner.

The Walgreen's sign is awful. In fact, it's larger than what was permitted by the North Meridian Corridor portion of the zoning ordinance at the time the site was developed. Go figure how that was approved.

CVS did do a decent job with the walkway from 16th & Scioto, but really, who should have to walk along an alley, past a dumpster, and across a drive-through lane to enter a building that's built on the corner? And, of course, we arrive back at the heart of the problem with CVS, that they backed the rear of a building up to the intersection of two arterial streets, one of them being the grandest of all the city has to offer.

Regional Center Design Guidelines? I'm pretty sure any objective reading of the said guidelines would not allow for approval of building without a front door, i.e., one that faces a street. Any street.

Sorry that I won't be able to meet up on Saturday to continue the discussion. Darn work! :bash:

By the way, what's with the fence in front of the old car lot south of Walgreen's? What a travesty! It's covered in weeds and blocking a good share of the sidewalk to where a wheelchair could clearly not pass between the parking meters and the fence supports.

cwilson758

August 20th, 2009, 04:00 PM

Harpua

August 20th, 2009, 05:01 PM

I don't know. Still looks like 64 parking spaces at Walgreen's to me. (Maybe you should check an aerial.:))

I'll grant you that CVS did a better job with their 16th Street sidewalk, hands down. The big question for me is why couldn't they have done the same along Meridian. Instead of shifting or widening the sidewalk up flush with the building, they install a landscape strip that further delineates the fraud that is the supposedly urban design achieved by constructing the building at the corner.

The Walgreen's sign is awful. In fact, it's larger than what was permitted by the North Meridian Corridor portion of the zoning ordinance at the time the site was developed. Go figure how that was approved.

CVS did do a decent job with the walkway from 16th & Scioto, but really, who should have to walk along an alley, past a dumpster, and across a drive-through lane to enter a building that's built on the corner? And, of course, we arrive back at the heart of the problem with CVS, that they backed the rear of a building up to the intersection of two arterial streets, one of them being the grandest of all the city has to offer.

Regional Center Design Guidelines? I'm pretty sure any objective reading of the said guidelines would not allow for approval of building without a front door, i.e., one that faces a street. Any street.

Sorry that I won't be able to meet up on Saturday to continue the discussion. Darn work! :bash:

By the way, what's with the fence in front of the old car lot south of Walgreen's? What a travesty! It's covered in weeds and blocking a good share of the sidewalk to where a wheelchair could clearly not pass between the parking meters and the fence supports.

I was on staff when that CVS came through. Don't think for a second that we didn't fight like crazy for a pedestrian entrance at the corner. Everything just kept coming down to "security concerns" and the BZA or MDC or whatever bought it... hook, line, and sinker. :ohno:

mobyhead

August 20th, 2009, 05:15 PM

I'll be back to college that weekend. I would've loved to go though! :(

Second year in a row I have missed it. It turns out my wife and I are looking at houses Saturday. You guys have fun. Should be nice weather too.

cailes

August 20th, 2009, 07:27 PM

CorrND

August 20th, 2009, 08:31 PM

Here's a google map of routes and locations for Saturday's tour:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=114373845858966325196.00047195ff991cfae17b5&ll=39.773516,-86.162553&spn=0.024606,0.038581&t=h&z=15

We don't have to stick to this exactly, but it'll be a good jumping off point. The route as mapped is 3.1 miles of walking, plus Red Line (http://www.indygo.net/red_line.htm) (remember to bring $1.75 for the bus) and People Mover trips.

Skyscraper City Indy Meetup and Tour Saturday, August 22nd at 9am
Meet at the outdoor tables at the downtown Dunkin' Donuts (NW Corner of Washington and Pennsylvania)

cdc guy

August 20th, 2009, 11:09 PM

Regional Center Design Guidelines? I'm pretty sure any objective reading of the said guidelines would not allow for approval of building without a front door, i.e., one that faces a street. Any street.

The intention of the guidelines (as I have understood their evolution) is not to be prescriptive, as in "said guidelines would not allow..."

What I've been saying boils down to this: CVS does a whole lot better with the spirit and intention of the guidelines than Walgreens.

I concede your front door argument, but ask you this: is your front door right on the sidewalk/ROW line? My office is in the RC area, but the door itself does not face the street. It has a direct walkway, but handicapped access from the public way is very roundabout.

cdc guy

August 20th, 2009, 11:11 PM

idyllic indy

August 21st, 2009, 06:03 AM

I was on staff when that CVS came through. Don't think for a second that we didn't fight like crazy for a pedestrian entrance at the corner. Everything just kept coming down to "security concerns" and the BZA or MDC or whatever bought it... hook, line, and sinker. :ohno:

Hmmm? I recall watching the BZA hearing for this proposal, but I don't remember the planning staff championing an entrance on the corner. Did I miss that part?

idyllic indy

August 21st, 2009, 06:06 AM

The intention of the guidelines (as I have understood their evolution) is not to be prescriptive, as in "said guidelines would not allow..."

What I've been saying boils down to this: CVS does a whole lot better with the spirit and intention of the guidelines than Walgreens.

I concede your front door argument, but ask you this: is your front door right on the sidewalk/ROW line? My office is in the RC area, but the door itself does not face the street. It has a direct walkway, but handicapped access from the public way is very roundabout.

No. My house's front door isn't on the right-of-way line, it's about 10 feet away, like the rest of my house. But if my house, or my office, or my store, was built on the right-of-way line, it would definitely have a door there, and also windows. And by windows, I mean glass that allows light to penetrate the interior space and provides for interaction between those inside and outside.

The CVS provides a more intimidating stretch of sidewalk wrapping around the entire corner, where there's no possibility that someone in the building might ever witness anything going on outside. A true urban design provides for natural surveillance by allowing views both into and out of the building and provides vitality to the street/sidewalk. It's not simply that someone won't get mugged, or worse, on the corner because someone is watching (although I would presume it would be less likely to occur), but if it does happen, there's a much higher chance someone will see and provide assistance.

Additionally, there's the psychological impact of making pedestrians feel safer and criminals feel unwelcome. Will this development encourage more people to walk in this area than would a "suburban-style" design with the parking lot at the corner like Walgreen's? I can't fathom that it will.

I don't intend to be offensive by saying this, but this seems like such a fundamental tenet of urban planning that I really can't understand how anyone would be satisfied with this CVS design.

arenn

August 21st, 2009, 02:38 PM

GarfieldPark

August 21st, 2009, 04:11 PM

"Since Im a flickr junkie, I randomly search for Indianapolis related photos and I found this set pretty interesting.

I call this:
What people take pictures of, when they visit our city.

Looks like he is from Dallas
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scutter...7621891592705/

Enjoy "

^^ Wow --- there are some really wonderful shots in that photo set. The photographer definitely has a great sense for finding beautiful, interesting shots. Its definitely worth the time to browse through the set of photos. Interesting, like you said, Cailes; the things out of towners take pictures of when they come to visit Indianapolis. Really nice. ANd its interesting that pretty much all of his pictures are within about a twenty square block area. It would be great to have him come back and take some more pictures of other interesting areas - like American Legion mall and other urban neighborhoods. Thanks for posting the link to his (her?) set of pictures.

AmericanDirt

August 21st, 2009, 04:58 PM

I'll just reply publicly since I want to reiterate to everybody that this is open to ANYONE that wants to attend.

You don't need to be an expert, and even though this is being organized through SSC, you don't even need to be an SSC poster. Anybody with an interest in development, architecture, construction, etc. is more than welcome to join us. Despite the number of times I've posted here, I'm 100% amateur, so don't feel intimidated.

Here's the relevant info (Dunkin Donuts is the meetup spot now, since I know they'll be open):

Skyscraper City Indy Meetup and Tour Saturday, August 22nd at 9am
Meet at the outdoor tables at the downtown Dunkin' Donuts (NW Corner of Washington and Pennsylvania)

Thanks for repeating the details for me (and others as well apparently). Appreciate it. I'll do my best to make it tomorrow.

benjaminooo

August 21st, 2009, 05:26 PM

(Though I should note many Chicago Walgreens do have a parking lot at the corner.

I noticed this last weekend when I was in Chicago. Specifically the Walgreens @ Milkwaukee & Wolcott.. I was definitely surprised to see the Parking lot on the corner. I noticed this at a lot of corners actually.. However has an incredible amount of intact corners with businesses/buildings on all 4 corners so the ones with parking lots stuck like sore thumbs.

billionbucks

August 21st, 2009, 05:37 PM

Apparatus to buy old WFYI building

Indianapolis IT firm Apparatus has agreed to buy the former WFYI office and studios at 1401 N. Meridian St.

The IT consulting and hosting company plans to remodel the 1950s-era building for its new headquarters, confirms Chuck Cagann, president of Mansur Real Estate Services, which is handling the sale.
Advertisement
Quantcast

WFYI, the public radio and TV station, moved out last year when it took over the former Indiana Gas headquarters at 16th and Meridian streets.

Apparatus will move from 912 N. Delaware St.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS/90820049/-1/frontpagecities/Apparatus+to+buy+old+WFYI+building

cdc guy

August 21st, 2009, 07:10 PM

Apparatus to buy old WFYI building

Indianapolis IT firm Apparatus has agreed to buy the former WFYI office and studios at 1401 N. Meridian St.

The IT consulting and hosting company plans to remodel the 1950s-era building for its new headquarters, confirms Chuck Cagann, president of Mansur Real Estate Services, which is handling the sale.

WFYI, the public radio and TV station, moved out last year when it took over the former Indiana Gas headquarters at 16th and Meridian streets.

Apparatus will move from 912 N. Delaware St.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS/90820049/-1/frontpagecities/Apparatus+to+buy+old+WFYI+building

Gee, that reporter has good sources. :lol:

The block is filling in. Plus, a solid MCM building gets new life. With apologies to WFYI and Mr. Rogers, "it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood..."

cailes

August 21st, 2009, 07:27 PM

Hey, now CVS gets some walk over business from this ;-)

cwilson758

August 21st, 2009, 09:13 PM

Since Im a flickr junkie, I randomly search for Indianapolis related photos and I found this set pretty interesting.

I call this:
What people take pictures of, when they visit our city.

Looks like he is from Dallas
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scutter/sets/72157621891592705/

Enjoy

This lighting looks FANTASTIC. This is what I was expecting from the One Indiana Sq LED

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2377/3813930732_ab2b7be526.jpg

CorrND

August 22nd, 2009, 02:50 AM

One last reminder about the meetup tomorrow morning:

9am at the outside tables at the downtown Dunkin' Donuts (NW corner of Washington and Pennsylvania).
Looks like about a 30% chance of rain all morning tomorrow, so bring an umbrella. Could be nothing, could be drizzling the whole time we're out. If the chance of rain goes up significantly for 9am-noon when I get up tomorrow, I'll post something by 8am to say we'll have to postpone.
I'll be wearing a kelly green shirt with the Hoosier Beer Geek (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CvT4emlaaOQ/R2a-q7WWJ0I/AAAAAAAAAWA/1HAj-Hk0tnc/s1600/blacklogo250.gif) logo on it.
*** Bring $1.75 for the Red Line. ***
See everybody tomorrow morning!

Indy Rock

August 22nd, 2009, 07:03 AM

BosartBrown

August 23rd, 2009, 10:36 PM

I came across this photo set on flickr with some very interesting historical photos of Indy's east side.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/heritagephoto/sets/1183489

Here's some highlights
Wonderland Tower. First time I've seen this..anyone know any background.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2289/2110387795_13109a36a0.jpg

Gotta love the trackless trolley

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/54600103_d26d8db420.jpg

jkramb

August 24th, 2009, 12:19 AM

billionbucks

August 24th, 2009, 01:07 AM

The Wonderland Tower was at a theme park that used to be on East Washington Street

AmericanDirt

August 24th, 2009, 01:19 AM

they have buses running on power lines like that in Bratislava, Slovakia.

Unless you were referring to something specific or distinctive about the catenary, they have these trolleybuses a bit closer to home, in Dayton and South Philadelphia.

hoosier

August 24th, 2009, 03:03 AM

I enjoyed meeting everyone at the forum meetup yesterday. It was nice to check out all of the development and architecture in DT Indianapolis.:)

jkramb

August 24th, 2009, 06:15 AM

Unless you were referring to something specific or distinctive about the catenary, they have these trolleybuses a bit closer to home, in Dayton and South Philadelphia.

i didn't know that.

benjaminooo

August 24th, 2009, 05:15 PM

I came across this photo set on flickr with some very interesting historical photos of Indy's east side.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/heritagephoto/sets/1183489

Thanks for this.. I'm not getting any work done now!

thundermutt

August 24th, 2009, 08:23 PM

Wonderland Tower. First time I've seen this..anyone know any background.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2289/2110387795_13109a36a0.jpg

Look! It's one of arenn's "100 Monument Circles"! :lol:

cjfjapan

August 25th, 2009, 04:25 AM

Sanborn Insurance Maps of Indy:

http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.ed/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=%2FSanbornJP2

k2h

August 25th, 2009, 05:49 AM

No updates from the tour on Saturday?

libertybell-donna

August 25th, 2009, 02:59 PM

ablerock

August 25th, 2009, 04:00 PM

Sanborn Insurance Maps of Indy:

http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.ed/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=%2FSanbornJP2

Those are great, aren't they!

--

Btw, somehow your link dropped the "u" in ".edu"

http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=%2FSanbornJP2

--

I can't remember if those have been posted here before, but for those interested, you can put your hands on the real things at the IHPC offices. They're huge and beautiful. The scans don't really do them justice.

They're hand updated. The handwriting is beautiful. Make sure to zoom in for the details.

cdc guy

August 25th, 2009, 04:19 PM

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090824/LOCAL18/90824040/1001/news

Article on the Central Towpath Canal bank stabilization. I missed the meeting last night, but it sounds like the canal banks are going to be reinforced gravel, we're going to lose a lot of vegetation, and habitat for muskrats and turtles will be abolished.

Now, I'm not unrealistic about saving every little tree and beetle along a functioning corridor - when IBJ posted the hoopla in Nora over the loss of trees along the Monon Trail I was squarely in the camp of "What's all the fuss? It's not like they're knocking down an old growth forest!" - but I do wonder if environmental impact statements are necessary in situations like this? Also, I'm curious that it's Veolia doing the work, not the City, and what kinds of environmental/regulatory differences come into play when it's a private entity vs. the City? Are there requirements for tree replacement?

Can anyone who knows more about this whole process help me understand if, should my Warfleigh Neighborhood Association get up in arms. we have any say in what happens along the Canal?

Donna, the City Department of Waterworks owns the upper canal (BR to 16th St.). Veolia, as system operator, is responsible for maintenance. It would seem they perceive that they can cut maintenance costs and system risk by having no vegetation along the canal.

The Canal itself is a constructed, man-made environment. It's now kept alive for the sole purpose of conveying water from White River to the near-Downtown treatment plant. The grass, weeds, trash trees and muskrats on its banks are perceived by its owner like weeds in a sidewalk: invasive and destructive. As an area resident, I'm sure you've noticed crews whose entire job is to mow and weed-whack the banks from one end to the other. Perhaps you remember a time in the early 90's when a tree on the canal bank toppled, causing a breach, draining the canal, and interrupting the city's water supply?

Function would seem to be ruling form here.

CorrND

August 25th, 2009, 04:23 PM

Sorry about the lack of a Saturday update. I had a Hoosier Beer Geek party on Saturday night that I was also involved with and I think I've now recovered....

We had a total of 7 on the tour, including me, which was a really nice sized group. The thing I found most interesting is that, for the most part, the sites we hit were really just a sideshow to all the chatting -- seems like everybody just liked the opportunity to discuss things with people that don't roll their eyes at us! I had a great time and I think everybody that came out had a good time as well.

I took a handful of photos but I haven't pulled them off my camera so I don't know if any are post-worthy yet. I'll try to get something up soon.

cailes

August 25th, 2009, 07:49 PM

cdc guy

August 25th, 2009, 09:08 PM

my wife and I were actually out and about Saturday morning and stopped at Dunkin Donuts. I remember seeing a group of people sitting out there and wondering if it was the meetup group. It was closer to 10:30-11 though and besides, we were going to visit Robert's anyway.... ;-)

Glad to hear you guys had fun. Would liked to have made it. Maybe next time

By 10:30-11, I think we were trying to find our way to the Monorail at IUPUI through the Med School library building. You really have to know exactly how to get to the Monorail stations 'cause there's no signs. Fortunately, we had Monorail commuter CorrND to guide us...and fortunately that was BEFORE the Hoosier Beer Geek function. :cheers:

We were such GOOD urbanites: walking, riding the bus, and riding the train all over downtown for a day. Tourists in our own town. Everyone should spend one Saturday morning a year that way. :)

hoosier

August 26th, 2009, 03:31 AM

I'd have to say the highlights of the meetup to me were seeing the nice job the city is doing on Market Street rebuild on the east side of DT (nice sidewalks and pretty pedestrian friendly) and the construction of the next leg of the Cultural Trail.

idyllic indy

August 26th, 2009, 04:44 AM

idyllic, I can tell you this much. A store like that CVS would stand a chance of getting approved in Chicago (more first floor windows would be mandated, however). The Walgreens? No way. (Though I should note many Chicago Walgreens do have a parking lot at the corner.

You lost me when you started talking about the sidewalk being set back from the street. Adding a parkway on Meridian is a big plus of the CVS project.

Arenn: My point is that the beneficial place to add landscaping along this portion of Meridian would have been between the curb and the sidewalk to protect pedestrians from traffic since there isn't, and likely won't ever be on-street parking adjacent to the building. Instead, by planting the shrubbery between the sidewalk and the building it reinforces the building's separation from the pedestrian.

If I was smart enough to know how to post a photo on here, I'd show you one that illustrates how pedestrians walk to the far inside of the sidewalk because nobody wants to walk on the outer half of the sidewalk because it is so close to moving traffic. Instead of the sidewalk being a place that people want to walk, it is a place people hurry by as quickly and carefully as possible.

billionbucks

August 26th, 2009, 06:01 AM

Construction of the JW Marriott has reached the 25th floor, with topping out of the 34-story hotel set to happen in December, barring work interruptions.

The curved, blue glass-sheathed tower will open to guests in early 2011, becoming the city's largest hotel.
Advertisement

The 1,626-room, $425-million complex includes three smaller hotels, which are further along in construction and will open in February and March of next year, says codevelopers White Lodging of Merrillville and REI Real Estate Services of Carmel.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090825/BUSINESS/908250380/JW+Marriott+topping+set+for+December

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z139/kcflood/Picture2-5.png

idyllic indy

August 26th, 2009, 06:15 AM

billionbucks

August 26th, 2009, 08:55 AM

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090825/BUSINESS/908250380/JW+Marriott+topping+set+for+December

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z139/kcflood/Picture2-5.png

I'm guessing that the hole on the left is where the skywalk will go

Harpua

August 26th, 2009, 03:51 PM

Oh my god. There's a skywalk, too? Sweet god, this project is awful.

benjaminooo

August 26th, 2009, 05:03 PM

Oh my god. There's a skywalk, too? Sweet god, this project is awful.

I'm not sure if "awful" is the correct adjective for the project.

pattyco7

August 26th, 2009, 05:39 PM

Oh my god. There's a skywalk, too? Sweet god, this project is awful.

I hate skywalks. People should WALK outside no matter what the weather is like. That's another reason why the downtown pedestrian traffic is so small.

cdc guy

August 26th, 2009, 06:28 PM

I hate skywalks. People should WALK outside no matter what the weather is like.

Since the beginning of recorded time humans have sought and built shelter from the elements. I don't really see a problem with it in an integrated hotel/convention center/mall complex.

cdc guy

August 26th, 2009, 06:34 PM

Arenn: My point is that the beneficial place to add landscaping along this portion of Meridian would have been between the curb and the sidewalk to protect pedestrians from traffic since there isn't, and likely won't ever be on-street parking adjacent to the building. Instead, by planting the shrubbery between the sidewalk and the building it reinforces the building's separation from the pedestrian.

Pedestrians don't like to walk with their shoulders rubbing buildings any more than they like to walk with their elbows out in traffic. Ideally, the right of way would be wide enough to provide a tree lawn, a sidewalk, and a small buffer yard between the curb and building to absorb some rainwater. But it's not.

The several-foot setback of the CVS building along Meridian preserves the clear-sight triangle, provides space for a bus shelter, creates space for relief in the facade, and allows people to walk on the "inside edge" of the sidewalk without bumping into the building.

ablerock

August 26th, 2009, 06:47 PM

Ideally, the right of way would be wide enough to provide a tree lawn, a sidewalk, and a small buffer yard between the curb and building to absorb some rainwater.

Ideally for who? I like my sidewalks wide and touching the building, thank you very much. :-)

cdc guy

August 26th, 2009, 07:42 PM

Ideally for who? I like my sidewalks wide and touching the building, thank you very much. :-)

Ideally for the environment.

Too much water that falls on this (and every other) city ends up "flashing" streams through CSOs instead of percolating down to recharge the drinking-water aquifers. Even Indianapolis could face water shortages if we don't wise up in the way we treat all our resources. Call it "Urbanism 2.0", "Green Urbanism", or "Smart Growth".

That said, I was definitely NOT advocating for 6-foot-wide sidewalks anywhere on Meridian south of 38th St. But I was advocating for a more European/boulevard look and feel to our "midtown" district, such as exists along the Mall: parking lane, tree lawn, wide sidewalk, space to buildings.

Downtown, I get your point and agree: big, wide sidewalks with enough room to get past the sidewalk cafes.

cdc guy

August 26th, 2009, 07:44 PM

Interesting take on Urbanism (and on The Urbanophile's now-closed "Living Carless in a Smaller City" thread):

Witold Rybczynski photo essay in Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2225748/)

billionbucks

August 26th, 2009, 10:06 PM

I hate skywalks. People should WALK outside no matter what the weather is like. That's another reason why the downtown pedestrian traffic is so small.

One of the key elements that got us the Super Bowl is the fact people can get to certain locations without going out in the cold.

jimfix

August 27th, 2009, 02:17 AM

man, when we switch to a new thread, can you put a link in the old one? as a lurker, i was lost for a minute.

idyllic indy

August 27th, 2009, 04:06 AM

Pedestrians don't like to walk with their shoulders rubbing buildings any more than they like to walk with their elbows out in traffic. Ideally, the right of way would be wide enough to provide a tree lawn, a sidewalk, and a small buffer yard between the curb and building to absorb some rainwater. But it's not.

The several-foot setback of the CVS building along Meridian preserves the clear-sight triangle, provides space for a bus shelter, creates space for relief in the facade, and allows people to walk on the "inside edge" of the sidewalk without bumping into the building.

Gotta go with Ablerock on this one.

I'd much rather rub elbows or shoulders with a building, because I've never heard of any getting run over by a building. This one's probably happened at some point, but I've also never heard of anyone tripping, falling into a building, and dying.

Wu-Gambino

August 27th, 2009, 04:14 AM

man, when we switch to a new thread, can you put a link in the old one? as a lurker, i was lost for a minute.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=738396&page=127

cdc guy

August 27th, 2009, 04:32 AM

Gotta go with Ablerock on this one.

I'd much rather rub elbows or shoulders with a building, because I've never heard of any getting run over by a building. This one's probably happened at some point, but I've also never heard of anyone tripping, falling into a building, and dying.

I know of an incident where a car leaving the street in an accident ran up on the sidewalk and crushed a person against a stoop. The stoop extended to the sidewalk; the person killed was waiting for a bus. (It happened just a few blocks east of the CVS in question, north of 16th & College.)

^^One reason why I advocate for bus shelters, wide sidewalks with tree lawns, and building setbacks in the midtown area.

BosartBrown

August 27th, 2009, 01:49 PM

CorrND

August 27th, 2009, 02:20 PM

Ok, now I'm pissed off. Completely divorcing this from the issue of whether St. Vincent is historical and/or structurally worth saving, there's so much underutilized land at the Ivy Tech campus that there's no justification for their "THIS IS THE SPOT" argument for tearing down a building. Hell, there's even sufficient land on the St. Vincent block to build a separate building. Look at the site from overhead:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/stvinc.jpg

The red X'd building has already been razed, so they could use the green outlined footprint to build another building. Build it as tall as necessary to create the space you need. Remember: you're building a campus in a CITY -- it should be dense. Plus, I guarantee it wouldn't cost $39.5M and St. Vincent would still be there.

cdc guy

August 27th, 2009, 02:46 PM

there's so much underutilized land at the Ivy Tech campus that there's no justification for their "THIS IS THE SPOT" argument for tearing down a building.

The "underutilized land" is starting to disappear with the advent of structured parking on the campus (at 28th & Illinois). Ivy Tech is about where IUPUI was 20-25 years ago: lots of land slowly accumulated and "banked" as surface parking. Now they are starting to build things to fill in the blanks and meet vastly-increased demand.

As the state's official "low cost provider" of post-secondary education, it's doubtful that they want to start down the "fee for this and that" path...fees for parking, student services, technology, etc. Thus they are totally dependent on the State Legislature (and Federal earmarks, such as the transportation grant for their "multimodal" center) for capital dollars.

The facadectomy seems to be a reasonable compromise: it preserves the "City Beautiful" proportions, scale, and vista of the 100-year-old St. Vincent as a complement to the neoclassical (former AUL) building to its east, while recognizing the fact that the building's design and construction makes adaptive reuse for classrooms next to impossible.

The hospital building is significant historically for both its physical position on one of Kessler's parkways (overlooking the grand bridges across Fall Creek and George Kessler Park) and its sad history as the place of his death. Keeping the facade pays some tribute to that dual history.

Finally, Midtown districts are different than downtowns, especially in a critical watershed overlooking one of the area's few natural assets. "Green" redevelopment is very important in such areas, and thoughtful advocates should be pushing Ivy Tech (and everyone else building in that area) for mitigation of stormwater through means such as permeable pavements, rain gardens, and urban forestry. In short, this is a place where hard-surfacing up to the street edge is not necessary and not good for the city.

CorrND

August 27th, 2009, 03:17 PM

The "underutilized land" is starting to disappear with the advent of structured parking on the campus (at 28th & Illinois). Ivy Tech is about where IUPUI was 20-25 years ago: lots of land slowly accumulated and "banked" as surface parking. Now they are starting to build things to fill in the blanks and meet vastly-increased demand.
You've got to be kidding me. Even with structured parking, 75% of the campus is surface parking. And the alternative site I propose they build on is not even underutilized, it's NOT UTILIZED.

As the state's official "low cost provider" of post-secondary education, it's doubtful that they want to start down the "fee for this and that" path...fees for parking, student services, technology, etc. Thus they are totally dependent on the State Legislature (and Federal earmarks, such as the transportation grant for their "multimodal" center) for capital dollars.
All the more reason to NOT overspend $39.5M on this project.

The facadectomy seems to be a reasonable compromise: it preserves the "City Beautiful" proportions, scale, and vista of the 100-year-old St. Vincent as a complement to the neoclassical (former AUL) building to its east, while recognizing the fact that the building's design and construction makes adaptive reuse for classrooms next to impossible.

The hospital building is significant historically for both its physical position on one of Kessler's parkways (overlooking the grand bridges across Fall Creek and George Kessler Park) and its sad history as the place of his death. Keeping the facade pays some tribute to that dual history.
If there was no possible alternative, facadectomy would be a reasonable compromise. But there are many alternatives in this case. The recent proposal to reuse the hospital for housing is perfectly sound -- requires refurb, not more expensive adaptation -- and was only scuttled by the economy. As they seem to find "land banking" with surface parking perfectly suitable, let's "building bank" this structure and wait for a time when the economy can support a proper reuse.

Finally, Midtown districts are different than downtowns, especially in a critical watershed overlooking one of the area's few natural assets. "Green" redevelopment is very important in such areas, and thoughtful advocates should be pushing Ivy Tech (and everyone else building in that area) for mitigation of stormwater through means such as permeable pavements, rain gardens, and urban forestry. In short, this is a place where hard-surfacing up to the street edge is not necessary and not good for the city.
Do you realize that you're talking about "green development" practices in the same breath as an argument for tearing down a building? No factor you mention there would overcome the wastefulness of tearing down and building anew.

If you want permeable pavements, rain gardens and urban forestry, that's fine. Reduce the footprint and build taller (great views). It would probably still cost less than $39.5M. For comparison, the 14 story, ~350k sq.ft. Simon Building cost about $57M. Ivy Tech wants 150k sq.ft.

cdc guy

August 27th, 2009, 05:07 PM

Preface: I see your points, and concede their logic.

As they seem to find "land banking" with surface parking perfectly suitable, let's "building bank" this structure and wait for a time when the economy can support a proper reuse.

Unfortunately, most in the neighborhood see a vacant, unused, deteriorating building as "blight", but don't view cleared land or parking lots the same way.

Do you realize that you're talking about "green development" practices in the same breath as an argument for tearing down a building? No factor you mention there would overcome the wastefulness of tearing down and building anew.

I'm not arguing for "absolute greenest". More like greenest possible under the circumstances.

Redevelopment of some kind is a foregone conclusion. Ivy Tech needs classrooms and parking YESTERDAY.

Is it really wasteful to tear down a very old and functionally obsolete building which can't be retrofitted and re-purposed economically by its owner? There are lots of pros and cons in this one.

Often decisions of this nature rely in part on intangible factors, such as the conditional support of a key legislator, funder, or local elected official. As such, they don't necessarily pass the "fully rational" test.

If you want permeable pavements, rain gardens and urban forestry, that's fine. Reduce the footprint and build taller (great views). It would probably still cost less than $39.5M. For comparison, the 14 story, ~350k sq.ft. Simon Building cost about $57M. Ivy Tech wants 150k sq.ft.

The Ivy Tech cost is probably "furnished". Simon didn't build fully-partitioned and furnished classroom spaces or labs, so it would be fair to add in their cubicle-farm costs (including wiring) for a reasonable cost comparison.

Simon employees don't move en masse from room to room and floor to floor every hour, so the public area, elevator, hallway, restroom, and stairway demands of their building are much lower than Ivy Tech's, arguing for a mid-rise instead of high-rise configuration with a bigger floor plate for the college space.

Other than dorms, hospital facilities and football palaces, I'm only familiar with a handful of high-rise college structures. The vast majority of academic buildings, even in big cities, are midrise.

cwilson758

August 27th, 2009, 05:12 PM

So Ivy tech is going to knock down the old st vincent building after all? I swear I thought I heard an announcement a while back that they were not going to do this. But they have plans to save the facade of the building. interesting

I wonder how easy it is to rip out the inside of a building while trying to keep the facade standing..can't be easy

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090827/LOCAL18/908270467/Ivy+Tech+will+give+old+St.+V+s+new+purpose

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20090827&Kategori=LOCAL18&Lopenr=908270467&Ref=AR&MaxW=580&MaxH=460&Q=100&Site=BG&MaxW=580&MaxH=600

Well, I am extremely P-O'd about this. When I was listening to the news this a.m., I wanted to strangle the anchor when she said "eye-sore." "Eye-sore" to whom? IVYTech? This structure is a beauty and I am sure Mr. Dolasse over at Historic Landmarks is fit to be tied.

CorrND

August 27th, 2009, 05:32 PM

Preface: I see your points, and concede their logic.
Fair enough. Your points are not invalid, just very pragmatic. (even if they irritate my mind!)

This is the only other point I'd like to address:
Simon employees don't move en masse from room to room and floor to floor every hour, so the public area, elevator, hallway, restroom, and stairway demands of their building are much lower than Ivy Tech's, arguing for a mid-rise instead of high-rise configuration with a bigger floor plate for the college space.

Other than dorms, hospital facilities and football palaces, I'm only familiar with a handful of high-rise college structures. The vast majority of academic buildings, even in big cities, are midrise.
I estimate the L-shaped footprint I laid out to be 50k sq.ft. Actually, it's slightly larger, but since Ivy Tech wants 150k, let's just say it's a 50k footprint, which would require a whopping 3 stories. Make it 40k and it would be 4 stories; 30k: 5 stories, exactly the same as the rendering shows. I'm not talking high-rise here, I just used Simon as example to show relative cost.

This is purely a guess, but I'd say if they built a new building separate from St. Vincent, they could probably knock at least $10M off the price. AND St. Vincent would still be sitting there, waiting for the right offer to be repurposed for student housing.

BosartBrown

August 27th, 2009, 05:52 PM

On the same st vincent subject.. The city basically gave ivy tech the building and the land under the agreement that they preserve the building. It seems if they're not doing this they owe the city a fair market value. I'm glad they're making some effort to preserve the facade but that certainly doesn't equate to preserving the building

CorrND

August 27th, 2009, 05:57 PM

A 32k sq.ft. footprint, conforming to a campus layout with setbacks:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/stvinc_30k.jpg

That would result in a 5 story, 160k sq.ft. building that would fit in very well with the massing of existing buildings at Ivy Tech.

CorrND

August 27th, 2009, 08:07 PM

Here's the asinine argument Ivy Tech is making:

What do we need? 150k sq.ft. of addition space for classrooms, labs and common space.

Do we have an existing space we could repurpose? Yes, the former St. Vincent Hospital. It could be reused for student housing but the costs to renovate the space for your stated needs are prohibitive.

Ok, do we have other land on which to build? Yes, pick any spot and we could build more cheaply than using St. Vincent.

Wait: what if we knock down the unsuitable St. Vincent building but keep the facade? Paramount Realty Group was interested in investing $18M into St. Vincent (http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_Full.asp?content=29605) to repurpose it as student housing. However, that deal is on hold given the current state of the economy, so if you want to use that spot, we can do that. You should be aware, though, that the additional expense of demolishing St. Vincent and saving the facade will make this option $xx more expensive than building elsewhere.

MORE expensive?! Boy, that sure sounds like an interesting option. What are the downsides? Hey, are you listening? You'll be spending additional taxpayer money tearing down a potentially useful building, while copious under- and un-used land is available. Cost savings aside, some people will not be happy about removing a structure of some architectural and historical significance.

Eh, whatever. Demolition is cool. Let's go for it!

flavius

August 27th, 2009, 08:21 PM

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=738396&page=127

wu-gambino, I think that jimfix means a link in the old thread, pointing to the new one. I have the same trouble myself--I usually have a hard time searching SSC or even Google and coming up with the most current thread, until it's at least a few pages along.

BTW, thank you for starting these threads.

socrates#1fan

August 27th, 2009, 09:40 PM

Well, it’s disappointing that a great deal of the structure will be demolished but I'm relieved the facade will be preserved and restored.
I understand money is an issue, but, when it comes to this city's history and architecture I hope we consider more than just financial aspects.

BosartBrown

August 27th, 2009, 09:52 PM

wu-gambino, I think that jimfix means a link in the old thread, pointing to the new one. I have the same trouble myself--I usually have a hard time searching SSC or even Google and coming up with the most current thread, until it's at least a few pages along.

BTW, thank you for starting these threads.

I just bookmark the following page to get all the indy related threads. It does require the thread to be tagged as "indianapolis" (anyone can do this)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/tags.php?tag=indianapolis

GarfieldPark

August 28th, 2009, 02:51 AM

k2h

August 28th, 2009, 03:44 AM

thundermutt

August 28th, 2009, 04:31 AM

Although i agree the original structure should be saved, this proposal is certainly better than the previous proposal for a suburban-style structure to replace the former St. Vincent Hospital.

Don't forget the horrid squiggly sidewalks and the front yard parking. Good riddance to those!

billionbucks

August 28th, 2009, 05:59 AM

billionbucks

August 28th, 2009, 06:16 AM

Found more pictures:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z139/kcflood/show.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z139/kcflood/show-2.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z139/kcflood/show-1.jpg

thehoss257

August 28th, 2009, 06:26 AM

Ideally for who? I like my sidewalks wide and touching the building, thank you very much. :-)

Ditto... I've never heard anyone object to walking next to buildings. Having both a tree lawn and a lawn in front of an urban commercial building is a little too suburban for my taste.

thehoss257

August 28th, 2009, 06:53 AM

So Ivy tech is going to knock down the old st vincent building after all? I swear I thought I heard an announcement a while back that they were not going to do this. But they have plans to save the facade of the building. interesting

I wonder how easy it is to rip out the inside of a building while trying to keep the facade standing..can't be easy

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090827/LOCAL18/908270467/Ivy+Tech+will+give+old+St.+V+s+new+purpose

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20090827&Kategori=LOCAL18&Lopenr=908270467&Ref=AR&MaxW=580&MaxH=460&Q=100&Site=BG&MaxW=580&MaxH=600

This really pisses me off... I just drove by this building earlier today and thought to myself that the sides of the building are almost as beautiful as the front. I don't mind that they are adding on but to tear down everything save for the front facade is crazy. Who is making these decisions at IVY Tech? Who have they hired to do their campus planning? A separate building with appropriate setbacks, scale and fenestration (sited on the unused portion of the block) would be huge for both the campus and the parkway.

I don't mind adding on to historic buildings but this, "addition" is a sham.

thehoss257

August 28th, 2009, 07:06 AM

"Ivy Tech officials said an architectural study found that renovating the entire building for classroom use would have been possible but not cost effective." - Source: IBJ

Sure saving historic buildings isn't always the most, "cost effective" solution... sometimes its just the right thing to do. You would think the nations largest community college network would want their main campus to be a special place. I guess not.

I think we need to make some noise on this.

CorrND

August 28th, 2009, 01:41 PM

The fact I keep coming back to with this Ivy Tech proposal is that it will cost more to use St. Vincent in this way than to build a new building.

In this economic/political climate, it makes no sense for a state-funded university to be proposing an expensive building project when cheaper options undoubtedly exist. The fact that there is potential upside to NOT knocking down the majority of St. Vincent just makes this doubly stupid.

This decision really can be divorced from the issue of historical significance and architectural beauty. Those are just factors in the decision of whether to reuse an old building or not. Just like its structural soundness is a factor. If St. Vincent were insignificant, ugly and/or unsound, an argument could be made. I'm not hearing any of those from anyone (well, we're hearing "eyesore" from some news outlets, but that's hard to take seriously). If it truly were structurally unsound, we wouldn't have been hearing about student housing proposals as recently as January and "IT'S UNSOUND AND UNSAFE!" would be the first words out of Ivy Tech when they went to pitch this proposal.

Instead, what we're hearing is, "St. Vincent isn't fit for what we need right now, so we should tear it down."

If St. Vincent's roof is leaking like a sieve and putting the whole building at risk, let's build a separate building and put a new roof on. I'd still put money on that being a cheaper option. And, again, St. Vincent would still be there, safe and sound, waiting for proper reuse....

socrates#1fan

August 28th, 2009, 02:44 PM

At the very least, they could have made the 'addition' match the historic part a little more.
Set aside the historic preservation and speak purely of aesthetics this new proposal just looks strange.
You are going from a very decorated facade to just stone boxes with holes punched in them.
It looks like a hospital that was carelessly added onto in the 70's.
Granted, they don't need to be as ornate as the front, but simply using brick instead of stone would help a lot.

Are they preserving the old lamps in front of the structure?

anhe

August 28th, 2009, 03:02 PM

It should be noted that Ivy Tech has zero interest in getting into the student housing market.

CorrND

August 28th, 2009, 03:11 PM

It should be noted that Ivy Tech has zero interest in getting into the student housing market.
Paramount Realty was going to operate the student housing.

ak72

August 28th, 2009, 03:16 PM

One problem with a plan that suggests letting the St. Vincent's building sit until the economy is ready to turn it into student housing is that -- the roof of St. Vincent's is open in several places. The building is deteriorating by the minute. If it tried to make it through another winter without being stabilized, it might start losing walls and floors. It may already be in that bad of shape - hence the need to just save the facade and gut everything else. I'm not too disappointed to see the re-use of this building in a way that saves its beautiful south facing front and allows the building to become a useful and attractive addition to the campus. Its easy to say that it should be converted into a residential dorm --- but in reality, how well would that really work. An early 1900's building is just not set up well to handle today's student residential needs.

Absolutely correct. Something had to be done about this building and soon. CorrND, you are correct that a new building somewhere else would be cheaper and better land use, but that would mean that this building would need to be demolished or serious money put into fixing it up simply to be an empty building. Something needed to be done about the building and this was the best compromise of keeping the building and adding the space that they need.

CorrND

August 28th, 2009, 03:25 PM

Absolutely correct. Something had to be done about this building and soon. CorrND, you are correct that a new building somewhere else would be cheaper and better land use, but that would mean that this building would need to be demolished or serious money put into fixing it up simply to be an empty building. Something needed to be done about the building and this was the best compromise of keeping the building and adding the space that they need.
Where has it been said that this building is about to fall down? I haven't read that anywhere. I've seen pictures of the interior and I'll admit it looks like a shithole. But peeling paint and mold doesn't mean it's structurally unsound.

If I'm incorrect, please point me to the information -- an unsound structure changes the whole discussion and I'll freely change my stance.

cdc guy

August 28th, 2009, 03:55 PM

The JW Marriott in Downtown Indianapolis will include an art-filled central plaza with a 60-foot waterwall and a stylized cardinal.

The design of the Marriott Place plaza, at West and Washington streets, was unveiled today by developers White Lodging Services and REI Investments.
Advertisement

Opening in March, the plaza was designed by Claire Bennett Associates of Indianapolis, with the artwork designed by Jeff Laramore of 2nd Globe Studies of Indianapolis.

The cardinal -- which is Indiana's state bird -- will be 36 feet in height. The sculpted bird will appear to be sitting in a tulip tree branch formed in stonework.

The picture they provided doesn't really depict the area very well. I'd like to see more pictures of the art!

This is like a lot of urban design projects: they look really cool in aerial/plan views, but average or busy or incomprehensible at ground level "inside" the design.

In this case, though, one must credit the designers somewhat: people on the east side of the hotel tower will have a skyline to look at from their windows. People on the west side of the tower (and in the "hotels-in-a-box" too) will be able to look down on this and "get" the design.

anhe

August 28th, 2009, 05:13 PM

Paramount Realty was going to operate the student housing.

Not anymore. The building is well suited for housing, but Ivy Tech is not going to have housing on any of their properties anytime soon.

cdc guy

August 28th, 2009, 05:50 PM

Ditto... I've never heard anyone object to walking next to buildings. Having both a tree lawn and a lawn in front of an urban commercial building is a little too suburban for my taste.

I didn't say "lawn in front" but did mention space for rain gardens. The CVS has no lawn in front, it has bushes, daylillies, and mulch, and it's about the same width as a typical tree lawn (3-8 feet). Call me an occasionally-romantic apologist, but I like the occasional small garden in the midst of the city hardscape. To me, a planted bed creates a different kind of interest than a window, but it is interesting to a pedestrian nonetheless. A raised planter adjacent to the building is even better, as it provides a seat for the weary pedestrian.

If you look at places where there are really wide sidewalks right up to the building, and snow isn't removed promptly (one such place is visible from my office window), people do walk closer to the building than the street, but generally 3-5 feet off the building front. This choice may be subconsciously informed by experience with doors swinging 3 feet outward and people rushing out without looking up and down the sidewalk.

So in a roundabout way, I'm saying the first 3-5 feet out from a building is often dead space...at least outside of the 10-20 block core of downtown, and certainly in a midtown district like 16th & Meridian.

^^ I suspect this post may descend to the level of "beating a dead horse". I apologize to those who get it, and those who are tired of it. :)

CorrND

August 28th, 2009, 06:47 PM

I'm sure everybody's sick of me, so I promise this will be the last thing I post about the St. Vincent/Ivy Tech plans. Just a bunch of info.

A photo post I made last September '08 when demolition seemed imminent:

http://dig-b.blogspot.com/2008/09/photos-st-weyertech-building.html

Another blog's post from April '07 about St. Vincent, with some history and personal anecdotes:

http://garbohateshermeneutics.blogspot.com/2007/04/st-vincent-last-seen-heading-north.html

A set of photos of the interior some guys took in June '08:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zonkout/tags/weyerbacherterrace/

News articles and blog postings:

July 17, 2008: http://propertylines.ibj.com/content/?p=860
July 18, 2008: http://propertylines.ibj.com/content/?p=862
January 17, 2009: http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page_Full.asp?content=29605
January 20, 2009: http://propertylines.ibj.com/content/?p=1045
August 27, 2009: http://www.indystar.com/article/20090827/LOCAL18/908270467/Ivy+Tech+will+give+old+St.+V+s+new+purpose

Ivy Tech's Press Release:

http://www.ivytech.edu/about/news-stories/StVincent082709.html

My estimate of a ~30k sq.ft. footprint -- times 5 stories = 150k sq.ft. that's been reported -- given the rendering they've published (with my alternative 30k sq.ft. footprint for reference):

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/corrnd/stvinc_reuse_32k.jpg

Looks like the majority of the block will be left for......more surface parking?

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20090827&Kategori=LOCAL18&Lopenr=908270467&Ref=AR&MaxW=580&MaxH=460&Q=100&Site=BG&MaxW=580&MaxH=600

OSUBucks#1

August 28th, 2009, 06:56 PM

cdc guy

August 28th, 2009, 07:39 PM

Looks like the majority of the block will be left for......more surface parking?

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20090827&Kategori=LOCAL18&Lopenr=908270467&Ref=AR&MaxW=580&MaxH=460&Q=100&Site=BG&MaxW=580&MaxH=600

Looks like campus greenspace to the east and west in the rendering; undoubtedly parking and main entrance behind (north). Probably the only people who would ever use the "grand entrance" (south) will be science students going to and from classes in the outdoor lab at Barton Park across Fall Creek.

libertybell-donna

August 28th, 2009, 09:12 PM

Ugh. The St. Vincent's facadectomy proposal is almost as hideously awful as the previous proposal.

CorrND, I'm not sick of hearing you make what are valid points. What the hell *is* Ivy Tech thinking? This proposal is nowhere bear the kind of progressive, curious, optimistic, creative thinking that this and all Midwest cities need. It's incredibly more-of-the-same.

I don't like to be so critical of another architect's work, especially when I'm posting under a somewhat anonymous (not really) name, but this is just poor design, in every aspect.

flavius

August 28th, 2009, 09:28 PM

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z139/kcflood/show.jpg

Looks like they're keeping the TGI Friday's!

arenn

August 28th, 2009, 10:08 PM

Ivy Tech got that building for $1 on the condition they renovated it. Clearly, they are trying to keep the sweetheart price while reneging on the commitments they made to the structure.

Mr Peanut

August 28th, 2009, 11:00 PM

cdc guy

August 28th, 2009, 11:42 PM

Ivy Tech got that building for $1 on the condition they renovated it. Clearly, they are trying to keep the sweetheart price while reneging on the commitments they made to the structure.

There's been a bit of a climate change since 2006, politically and economically. We shouldn't be where we are vis a vis the Old St. V's, but here we are anyway.

The loose credit for marginal commercial projects has dried up. It is unlikely that it will come back anytime soon. Which leaves the bombed-out hulk sitting.

We can't turn back the clock and get the city to choose someone else to own the building in 2006. Ivy Tech got it, sat on it, and now here we are.

What's the best way forward? CorrND has advanced a proposal that meets one Ivy Tech need (150K sq ft) but doesn't address the perceived blight of a bombed-out hulk on its campus or real preservation of the building. The Schmidt proposal meets all three needs, as long as the State ponies up the cash for it.

In college math we called this a "saddle point" or "local maximum". It's not the highest and best reuse, but it is a workable solution to the constraints at hand.

Radical moderation, maybe.

thehoss257

August 29th, 2009, 12:42 AM

There's been a bit of a climate change since 2006, politically and economically. We shouldn't be where we are vis a vis the Old St. V's, but here we are anyway.

The loose credit for marginal commercial projects has dried up. It is unlikely that it will come back anytime soon. Which leaves the bombed-out hulk sitting.

We can't turn back the clock and get the city to choose someone else to own the building in 2006. Ivy Tech got it, sat on it, and now here we are.

What's the best way forward? CorrND has advanced a proposal that meets one Ivy Tech need (150K sq ft) but doesn't address the perceived blight of a bombed-out hulk on its campus or real preservation of the building. The Schmidt proposal meets all three needs, as long as the State ponies up the cash for it.

In college math we called this a "saddle point" or "local maximum". It's not the highest and best reuse, but it is a workable solution to the constraints at hand.

Radical moderation, maybe.

What bombed out hulk? The building looks remarkably solid to me. The masonry looks great! I dont even think it would need to be tuck-pointed. As for this building not meeting their needs, their press release stated that it could be converted into classrooms. They just don't think it would be cost effective. Well lets see the numbers.

thehoss257

August 29th, 2009, 12:48 AM

We can't turn back the clock and get the city to choose someone else to own the building in 2006. Ivy Tech got it, sat on it, and now here we are.

Radical moderation, maybe.

No, but they should be expected to live up to their agreements.

BosartBrown

August 29th, 2009, 02:53 AM

Ivy Tech got that building for $1 on the condition they renovated it. Clearly, they are trying to keep the sweetheart price while reneging on the commitments they made to the structure.
What's really bad is I read a quote from the director of metropolitan development praising the plan, stating that this is what the city wanted all along. Its interesting that all modes of media in this city are praising this project while ignoring the fact that they are actually tearing down 99% of the building.

Clearly this proposal is light years beyond their original proposal but it doesn't trump the fact they are still tearing down a historical building

socrates#1fan

August 29th, 2009, 03:10 AM

Question,
is the church portion going to be preserved?

hoosier

August 29th, 2009, 04:45 AM

thehoss257

August 29th, 2009, 06:43 AM

I have mixed feelings about the project. On the one hand, I do not like how the school is basically tearing down a beautiful old building save for one facade, but on the other hand, the presence of an abandoned and dilapidated structure in such a prominent location is a negative for the surrounding area.

Many wonderful buildings have sat empty for much longer than St. Vincent and become treasures once again. Do you think we should go ahead and tear down 95% of the Consolidated or Illinois buildings downtown?

By the way... Does anyone know what happened to the copper roof on this building? I'm fairly sure the building went to hell around the time of the demolition of the other wings and nearby buildings. Take a look at the Google Earth sat view; it looks like the copper was intact. I remember distinctly driving by and being horrified by the sudden deterioration of the roof. At the time, I just assumed it was being repaired. Was the building not secured by IVY Tech upon their taking of possession? If the copper was stolen when they owned the building, did they not have insurance to cover the theft? It seems to me like they have wanted to tear it down from the moment they took possession. Letting the building deteriorate has only strengthened their hand. No one seems to be calling them on it.

thehoss257

August 29th, 2009, 07:04 AM

Instead of potentially having two great buildings, they are going to end up having one compromised, awkward and dare I say ugly building. CorrND is right, doing this facadectomy is going to be very expensive. They should design a real building that stands on its own. It should fit into the campus, with proper setbacks, scale and fenestration. The savings should be used to stabilize St. Vincent.

thehoss257

August 29th, 2009, 08:12 AM

Help me understand the timeline.

St. Vincent Hospital opens - 1913 (Nearly 100 years ago)
St. Vincent Closes - 1974
Weyerbacher Terrace Apartments offering government subsidized units - 1974?
Federal Government sells St. Vincent to City - 2004?
IVY Tech buys St. Vincent from the city for a dollar - 2006?

Auxiliary Buildings Are leveled by IVY Tech - ?
NW wing of St. Vincent demolished by IVY Tech - ? (Didn't this breach IVY Tech's contract/agreement to the city?)
Copper removed - ?
IVY Tech Proposes complete demo of St. Vincent - ?
IVY Tech Proposes Facadectomy - ?

Current Google sat picture taken - ?
Current Bing sat picture taken - ?
Bing Bird's eye view taken - ?

What was the nature of the city's agreement with IVY Tech? (According to the Star, "The college is required to retain the building's outer appearance in any renovations.")
What was the condition of the Weyerbacher when it was sold to IVY Tech?
What was the condition of the St. Vincent Campus upon its sale to IVY Tech?

thehoss257

August 29th, 2009, 08:21 AM

IVY Tech / the city being a great steward of our historic architecture. :bash:

- Who is to blame?
- Who removed all of the copper roofing? (Did demolition contractors remove the copper? Did IVY tech not secure the building?)
- Didn't IVY Tech breach its agreement with the city when it demolished the hospital's northwest wing? (It was either original or skillfully added on soon after the hopital opened)

Please help me date these images from Google and Bing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/3866155955_6884c56f46_o.jpg
Google Sat Image - Date?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2543/3866938926_741e3a3606_o.jpg
Bing Sat Image - Date?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2555/3866940166_0694efc9c2_o.jpg
Bing Birds-Eye View - Date?

CorrND

August 29th, 2009, 01:39 PM

I can't help myself.

What's the best way forward? CorrND has advanced a proposal that meets one Ivy Tech need (150K sq ft) but doesn't address the perceived blight of a bombed-out hulk on its campus or real preservation of the building. The Schmidt proposal meets all three needs, as long as the State ponies up the cash for it.
I will admit that my plan doesn't deal with the "perceived blight" but I would also argue that Ivy Tech's plan does NOT provide "real preservation of the building" and my plan is the better alternative for that goal. Therefore, our plans tie at two. Except that my plan potentially offers what thehoss notes:

Instead of potentially having two great buildings, they are going to end up having one compromised, awkward and dare I say ugly building. CorrND is right, doing this facadectomy is going to be very expensive. They should design a real building that stands on its own. It should fit into the campus, with proper setbacks, scale and fenestration. The savings should be used to stabilize St. Vincent.
How about this thought experiment: let's just estimate that the facadectomy plan costs $5M more than the cost of new, separate 150k sq.ft. building. Ivy Tech says they need $39.5 for the facadectomy plan, so a separate building would cost $34.5M. And we were told back in January that Paramount Realty Group was going to renovate St. Vincent for housing for about $18M.

$34.5M Separate Building
$18M St. Vincent renovation
------
$52.5M

So, Ivy Tech could spend just 33% over the facadectomy plan ($13M) and end up with two buildings, PLUS they keep all the preservationists 100% happy, PLUS they keep the neighborhood happy by dealing with the "blight", PLUS they don't renege on the deal with the city. And if my estimate for the additional cost of the facadectomy is low, the difference between the two plans (effectively, the cost of a second building) could be even lower.

This Ivy Tech plan is so illogical, it hurts my brain.

As I keep on harping, my point of view is that this isn't so much about preservation as it is about a low-cost state college's inefficient use of available resources. The historical preservation issue is just icing on the cake.

*************

Side note: WTHR reported on the 6pm news on Thursday that estimates are that it could take 3-4 years for Ivy Tech to cobble together the necessary funding and build this building. Therefore, their plan isn't even a timely response to a need being characterized as urgent. Think a new, cheaper building might be able to be built more quickly?

cailes

August 29th, 2009, 02:37 PM

socrates#1fan

August 29th, 2009, 03:32 PM

I'm a nobody in this city as far as urban planning goes but I have been around here long enough to know there are some connected people. Doesn't someone know who's ear to whisper in about this instead of complaining on a web message board?? Just sayin...

There are legitimate concerns over the fate of an important historic landmark.

Also, if you go to the Ivy Tech website they are talking about how they are saving a historic building.
WTF?
http://www.ivytech.edu/about/news-stories/StVincent082709.html

dcesar716

August 29th, 2009, 06:39 PM

Bloomington's Kilroy's opening downtown Indianapolis outpost
Restaurateur Paul Murzyn has signed a lease for the 8,700-square-foot, first-floor space at 201 S. Meridian St., a historic building with luxury condos upstairs.

http://www.ibj.com/kilroyrsquos-will-soon-be-here/PARAMS/article/6466

Indy Rock

August 29th, 2009, 06:49 PM

pattyco7

August 29th, 2009, 07:07 PM

billionbucks

August 29th, 2009, 08:28 PM

arenn

August 29th, 2009, 09:03 PM

Indy Rock

August 29th, 2009, 09:20 PM

As much as I hate to say it, this guy from Chicago is correct. When comparing Indy to Chicago there's really no comparison. You would think that Indy is a big redneck suburb too after spending so many years living in Chicago.

It's all subjective really...
New York City probably views Chicago the same way Chicago views us.
While Indianapolis views Fort Wayne in the same fashion.

socrates#1fan

August 29th, 2009, 09:37 PM

So I asked this guy, as a fellow Chicagoan, what his honest opinion was of Indianapolis after spending a week here. Here was his response...

Hey, just got back from Indy. I know you wanted some feedback. Like I said in the thread, I honestly didn't expect much at all from this city, and I wasn't disappointed. The whole city really felt like a giant, redneck suburb...and I couldn't find one remotely interesting area to venture into. I had excellent sushi there however! So that's something!

Just being honest. I really am spoiled here in Chicago.

I won't disclose the name of this person, they post in the Midwest Forums once in awhile. I'd like to think he's just replying in your typical Chicagoan fashion. The second city complex if you will. How many of you here would agree with him and how many of you would disagree? Why?

PS am I the only one that hates the new IBJ format? It requires a subscription now & looks too much like the awful Indy Star website. Just my two cents.

Indianapolis is not a big redneck suburb.
We are not nearly as liberal as Chicago, but we aren't redneck.
Indianapolis is its own city; it is a mixture of Hoosier conservative and urban liberal, which makes it a rather calm city.
Chicago is a great city, world class, but I wouldn't want to live there.
I hate to use the word elitist, but a lot of Chicago seems that way.
It just seems to me that a working class family could come to downtown Indy and enjoy themselves, but in Chicago the mood seems very different.
Indianapolis is an Indiana city, a Midwestern city, and there is no shame in that.
We are not a world city like NYC or London, here in Indy the city is a lot like Indiana.
But, we are connected to the world, we are a convention power, we have a booming downtown, and we are a sports city.
It could be him being honest, but it doesn't mean it’s true, he is saying what he thinks, but I disagree with him.
I'm apathetic towards what people in Chicago think of Indy; I want to know what people in Indy think of Indy. :)

Mr Peanut

August 29th, 2009, 09:49 PM

Indy Rock

August 29th, 2009, 09:51 PM

Indianapolis is not a big redneck suburb.
We are not nearly as liberal as Chicago, but we aren't redneck.
Indianapolis is its own city; it is a mixture of Hoosier conservative and urban liberal, which makes it a rather calm city.
Chicago is a great city, world class, but I wouldn't want to live there.
I hate to use the word elitist, but a lot of Chicago seems that way.
It just seems to me that a working class family could come to downtown Indy and enjoy themselves, but in Chicago the mood seems very different.
Indianapolis is an Indiana city, a Midwestern city, and there is no shame in that.
We are not a world city like NYC or London, here in Indy the city is a lot like Indiana.
But, we are connected to the world, we are a convention power, we have a booming downtown, and we are a sports city.
It could be him being honest, but it doesn't mean it’s true, he is saying what he thinks, but I disagree with him.
I'm apathetic towards what people in Chicago think of Indy; I want to know what people in Indy think of Indy. :)

I can drink to that! :cheers:

CorrND

August 29th, 2009, 09:57 PM

Facadectomies are not that uncommon around the country. Actually, they only been used here sparingly, on Circle Centre and the Emmis Building.

Call my cynical but me bigger problem is that I have no confidence that Ivy Tech ever entered into the sweetheart, $1 deal in good faith.
In theory I have no problem with facadectomy, though I think you need to (a) show that the structure behind the facade is unsound or (b) prove that the existing structure is wholly unsuitable and show that you have no alternative but to replace it. Ivy Tech has shown neither. And this particular facadectomy sucks to boot.

I'll continue harping on the "efficient use of resources" line as long as I'm typing. Facadectomy and demolition simply costs more.

Honestly, whether Ivy Tech is reneging on the deal is very far down my list of concerns.

arenn

August 29th, 2009, 11:08 PM

cdc guy

August 29th, 2009, 11:42 PM

I'm a nobody in this city as far as urban planning goes but I have been around here long enough to know there are some connected people. Doesn't someone know who's ear to whisper in about this instead of complaining on a web message board?? Just sayin...

If some folks hadn't been whispering, talking, and exposing the gawd-awful original Schmidt plan (on blogs, BTW), the building would be down already.

vitamin R

August 29th, 2009, 11:47 PM

cdc guy

August 29th, 2009, 11:49 PM

cdc guy

August 29th, 2009, 11:58 PM

I agree, the new IBJ format blows. Personally, I think they've become elitist, lol. Plus I think they are trying to control some of the commentary they receive. They seem to get a bit testy when you don't agree with them or are critical.

As far as Cory Schouten of IBJ goes, I disagree. He moderates Property Lines very lightly. He actually breaks real news and researches real stories. From where I sit he's one of the top reporters in the city when it comes to actually reporting. And no...I'm not Cory, nor am I a drinking buddy.

See my reply (above) about the St. V's issue: he broke the story, and I think he's one big reason the building is still standing today.

vitamin R

August 30th, 2009, 12:10 AM

As far as Cory Schouten of IBJ goes, I disagree. He moderates Property Lines very lightly. He actually breaks real news and researches real stories. From where I sit he's one of the top reporters in the city when it comes to actually reporting. And no...I'm not Cory, nor am I a drinking buddy.

See my reply (above) about the St. V's issue: he broke the story, and I think he's one big reason the building is still standing today.

Cory is one of the reasons I go to the IBJ site as much as I do. However, IBJ has other writers on staff. IBJ serves a niche market, I would like to see the Ivy Tech story get wider attention than it currently is.

Yes, I already know you are not Cory, he posts in here on a regular basis.

benjaminooo

August 30th, 2009, 01:31 AM

I like the new IBJ layout, it seems very user friendly.. I thought the old site was very clunky and outdated.

benjaminooo

August 30th, 2009, 01:35 AM

It's silly to compare Chicago to Indianapolis. I like both cities a lot.

However, the redneck opinion is pretty spot on. I feel inundated by redneck and white trash culture on a daily basis and they breed like rabbits.

thundermutt

August 30th, 2009, 02:27 AM

I would like to see the Ivy Tech story get wider attention than it currently is.

Two front-page stories in the Indy Star, two stories on Inside Indiana Business, plus Property Lines & IBJ is about as wide as coverage gets in this town. What other coverage would get the story wider attention?

thundermutt

August 30th, 2009, 02:38 AM

I feel inundated by redneck and white trash culture on a daily basis and they breed like rabbits.

You'd have to move to the north side to significantly reduce the level of redneck/white trash in your surroundings. You don't have to go too far north to find places where there are no cars up on blocks or falling-down garages.

Indywatch

August 30th, 2009, 03:07 PM

um..... what's better, and apple, an orange, a banana, or a grape?

socrates#1fan

August 30th, 2009, 04:35 PM

First of all, I’d hate to think people assume that working class and practical is redneck, which is just arrogant.
Not all people can afford nice clothes, good houses, or good lawns, but it doesn’t make them trashy as people.

Second, has anyone here been raised in the country? I lived in a town that was four blocks wide as a child and people in the country who are ‘rednecks’ are obsessed with the way their homes look, even in the country, the farmers who call themselves ‘rednecks’ are far from poor.

Third, why is redneck bad? There is a difference between trashy intolerant moron and country redneck.

Honestly, 'redneck' can be extremely practical at times.
I can tell you, Indianapolis is not redneck; it has a southern influence, but not enough to call it a southern like city.
Besides, why is southern bad? Simply basing it off of the history of our city, I don't think this is a southern like city, but if we were, what's the problem?
Indianapolis is a mix of multiple cultures making it unique in my opinion.

arenn

August 30th, 2009, 05:16 PM

I agree the Cory Schoutten one of the top reporters in the city. He does great work.

vitamin R

August 30th, 2009, 06:11 PM

Two front-page stories in the Indy Star, two stories on Inside Indiana Business, plus Property Lines & IBJ is about as wide as coverage gets in this town. What other coverage would get the story wider attention?

Well has it shown on the local evening news? If we follow your line of logic people living south of 38th street don't read but maybe they watch t.v. I suppose I'm just dissapointed there isn't more outrage over this. I admit I haven't had time to follow the story more closely as I'd like or should. I work full-time and go to school plus I have other interests. I guess its just one of the downfalls of being multi-faceted.

What I am certain of is that even in its current state the old St. Vincents is a beautiful and imposing building. I just sense a cold calculation in how this whole matter has been dealt with and it makes me a bit angry. I just hope this type of situation can be avoided in the future.

kangaroo1

August 30th, 2009, 07:30 PM

If you take Chicago as the baseline, then of course Indy looks bad. But if you take Indy as the baseline, the situation is easily reversed. I can tell you this, better to live in Carmel than Naperville any day of the week. Meridian-Kessler is a fraction of the price of equivalent neighborhoods on the North Shore. For a heckuva lot of people in Indianapolis, the comparison is no contest and Indy wins hands down.

As for "redneck", if we take that as a simply a pejorative phrase for "Southern", there's no doubt Indy is that. It has strong Southern tendencies. Over 75% of the people (and I think I'm being charitable here) speak with a noticeable Southern accent. The city has infrastructure and development styles that are on par with the South. Auto racing is big, chains of all sorts, etc. In that sense, the comparison is very accurate. Whether it is a bad thing or not depends on one's point of view.

I am not quite sure I agree, Arenn, with all your comments about the Southern characteristics of the city.

Indianapolis does have some Southern influences, in part because of early immigration from Kentucky, and the later high level of immigration from Southern Appalachia in the 1940's-1960s--mostly to the (old) South Side of the city. Also, some members of the African-American community retain Southern cultural influences. However, your claim that (conservatively) over 75% of the people in Indianapolis speak with a noticeable Southern accent is quite an exaggeration. The predominate Indianapolis accent is the Midland accent (or nondescript Midwest accent, which many newscasters attempt to achieve). Now, when you travel to different parts of the city, you do find different pockets of accents, including the Southern Appalachian dialect, which is still quite common, though not exclusive to, the (old) South Side of the city.

In any event, I suppose the accents one hears in the city depends upon the circles one associates with (and I don't mean that in a bad way). In my case when I was growing up, aside from the occasional Appalachian dialect I heard spoken by acquaintances from the South Side, the only Southern accent I ever heard spoken regularly was the sophisticated Virginia Piedmont accent of a close family friend--and non-Indianapolis native--who regularly visited our house.

As for the visitor from Chicago, he seems to be very insecure with himself, as some Midwesterners are who feel the need to reject the Midwest to prove their worldliness. He also seems terribly dull. No, Indianapolis is not, and never has been, a metropolis anything on the scale of Chicago. However, for this guy to claim that during his week stay in the city he could not find a single interesting thing to do says far more about him then it does about Indianapolis. The city has plenty of good restaurants, cultural and historic points of interests, excellent local theatre, lively neighborhoods, recreational opportunities, night life, etc. The gentleman from Chicago seems to have made a clear choice to stay his hotel room during his visit, rather than venturing out to discover what Indianapolis has to offer.

jimfix

August 30th, 2009, 09:34 PM

i guess it kind of depends on where he stayed and went during that week. i don't think anyone who stays downtown and goes to mass ave, etc would really say that. however, if you stay in plainfield and hang out at metropolis or stay in castleton i could see thinking that.

then again, i would say the same thing about some of chicago's suburbs (especially to the west)...

arenn

August 30th, 2009, 09:43 PM

AmericanDirt

August 30th, 2009, 10:10 PM

It's all subjective really...
New York City probably views Chicago the same way Chicago views us.
While Indianapolis views Fort Wayne in the same fashion.

Yes. They do.
Many New Yorkers I know (a caveat that this is Brooklyners in general and Manhattanites in particular) appreciate Chicago's architecture and overall urban feel, but still think Chicagoans are hicks. Just as, for many Europeans, the Wilde quote still rings true: "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between." Yet they still come here in droves.

Deuter0nomy

August 30th, 2009, 10:15 PM

As for the visitor from Chicago, he seems to be very insecure with himself, as some Midwesterners are who feel the need to reject the Midwest to prove their worldliness. He also seems terribly dull. No, Indianapolis is not, and never has been, a metropolis anything on the scale of Chicago. However, for this guy to claim that during his week stay in the city he could not find a single interesting thing to do says far more about him then it does about Indianapolis. The city has plenty of good restaurants, cultural and historic points of interests, excellent local theatre, lively neighborhoods, recreational opportunities, night life, etc. The gentleman from Chicago seems to have made a clear choice to stay his hotel room during his visit, rather than venturing out to discover what Indianapolis has to offer.

Agree wholeheartedly. Chicagoans are painfully unaware that 1) white flight in the city has largely been so pronounced--and segregation so ossified--that the white working class areas that this person sneers at are only missing in Chicago because they all left and moved to far southern suburbs and 2) the majority of downstate Illinois shares far more cultural similarities with Indiana than it does with Chicago. Lastly, Chicagoland, for all its wonderful assets, is the Banana Republic of the Midwest. Lake County and the Calumet Region, long Indiana's rust belt capital, has experienced a resurgence in population growth in recent years, not so much as a consequence of smart economic development initiatives but because the middle class of Chicago's southern suburbs feels squeezed out by high housing costs, exorbitant taxes, struggling school systems, and a sense of anomie reflecting their lack of representation by the relentless Chicagoland political machine. This is of course a broad generalization, but Dyer, Munster, Schererville, etc are growing at Cook County's expense.

NaptownBoy

August 31st, 2009, 12:04 AM

I am not quite sure I agree, Arenn, with all your comments about the Southern characteristics of the city.

Indianapolis does have some Southern influences, in part because of early immigration from Kentucky, and the later high level of immigration from Southern Appalachia in the 1940's-1960s--mostly to the (old) South Side of the city. Also, some members of the African-American community retain Southern cultural influences. However, your claim that (conservatively) over 75% of the people in Indianapolis speak with a noticeable Southern accent is quite an exaggeration. The predominate Indianapolis accent is the Midland accent (or nondescript Midwest accent, which many newscasters attempt to achieve). Now, when you travel to different parts of the city, you do find different pockets of accents, including the Southern Appalachian dialect, which is still quite common, though not exclusive to, the (old) South Side of the city.

In any event, I suppose the accents one hears in the city depends upon the circles one associates with (and I don't mean that in a bad way). In my case when I was growing up, aside from the occasional Appalachian dialect I heard spoken by acquaintances from the South Side, the only Southern accent I ever heard spoken regularly was the sophisticated Virginia Piedmont accent of a close family friend--and non-Indianapolis native--who regularly visited our house.

As for the visitor from Chicago, he seems to be very insecure with himself, as some Midwesterners are who feel the need to reject the Midwest to prove their worldliness. He also seems terribly dull. No, Indianapolis is not, and never has been, a metropolis anything on the scale of Chicago. However, for this guy to claim that during his week stay in the city he could not find a single interesting thing to do says far more about him then it does about Indianapolis. The city has plenty of good restaurants, cultural and historic points of interests, excellent local theatre, lively neighborhoods, recreational opportunities, night life, etc. The gentleman from Chicago seems to have made a clear choice to stay his hotel room during his visit, rather than venturing out to discover what Indianapolis has to offer.
The Chicago superiority complex rears its ugly head yet again, I see.

In terms of the total package, Indy doesn't compare quite favorably to Chicago, but for what it is, Indy really is a kick-ass town and that pretty much sums it up. You don't have to take anything away from one city in order to give a compliment to another, and I think a lot of people are confused about that fact. Having said that, it goes both ways: my sentiment towards the locals is that there are plenty of cities in this country larger and smaller that I'd much rather live in than Chicago, and Indy is one of them.

Also, Kangaroo, I find your assessment to be quite accurate. I've lived in the Deep South for a time (Mississippi), and the accent is QUITE different from what you'd find here. I actually got teased quite a bit for "talking proper" when visiting relatives. Then again, my immediate family is from the Chicago area and I went to school in Washington Township, so none of my friends or neighbors speaks with a Southern accent.

I am aware that some of the poorer Southside neighborhoods do have some sort of Appalachian thing going on in terms of their dialect. I guess it truly does depend on your family, neighborhood, education, etc.

benjaminooo

August 31st, 2009, 03:07 AM

The majority of Fountain Squarians speak in banjo like tongues.

JohnM Indy

August 31st, 2009, 03:19 AM

kangaroo, I have to disagree on the accent. Some in Indianapolis do have a Midwestern accent, but the vast majority have a noticeable southern inflection. That's not to say that they sound like they are from Alabama, but clearly the average Indy resident does not sound like someone from Detroit, Milwaukee, Denver, Minneapolis, etc. I'm sure most people are not conscious of this since it is not hard core deep south, but it is VERY noticeable to anyone who comes from a place where this is not prominent.

There are pockets of the city, especially the "favored quarter" of the north where you are much less likely to hear this. But a clear majority of the people speak this way.

There's definitely a Hoosier twang, but it's not truly southern. As others have noted, linguists consider central Indiana to be part of the "midland" dialect, which is independent from the "inland north" dialect, variations of which are spoken in Chicago, Detroit, and the rest of the upper midwest. Still, it's not a "southern" accent. I doubt that people here are unaware that most in Indianapolis speak differently than those from Chicago and other upper midwestern cities. On the other hand, while the midland accent spoken here has southern influences, there would be no confusing the typical Indianapolis resident with the typical Louisville resident in terms of accent.

I lived in South Bend until I was 10 and whenever I take one of those online dialect quizzes, my accent shows up as "inland north." Because of that, I do think I'm very cognizant of the differences between the way people talk here as compared to the upper midwest. Still, I recall that when I was a student at IU, it was very easy to tell the people who were from very close to the Ohio River. They spoke with much more of what would be considered a true southern accent, and linguistic studies seem to support that.

Just because a central Indiana accent sounds like a "southern" accent to a Chicagoan doesn't make it so. A person from the midwest might not be able to distinguish between Boston/NYC/Philly/Baltimore accents. A person from the south might think that people from Chicago sound just like people from Green Bay. There are differences. The Indianapolis accent is, by definition, a midwestern accent because it is spoken in the midwest and is distinct from what is spoken in the adjacent south.

Deuter0nomy

August 31st, 2009, 04:50 AM

The majority of Fountain Squarians speak in banjo like tongues.

That would make sense. The majority of Fountain Squarians (at least those who lived there prior to, say, 2001) are descended from Appalachia.

I think JohnM has the most accurate characterization of the dialects, which I'm sure a linguist could label more accurately than I. But it roughly translates to various latitudes, so that central Indiana resembles central Ohio and central Illinois, all the way to Kansas and southern Nebraska, as well as parts of Appalachia (West Virginia and parts of Pennsylvania). Fort Wayne, South Bend, and the Region more closely resemble the Chicago accent, with a broader emphasis on flattening the short "a" sound typical of the Great Lakes. Farther north, the short "a" is just as flat but the short "o" is also more heavily rounded, which one notices in Wisconsin and Minnesota, but not so much in Chicago.

To a Minneapolitan, I suspect some Chicagoans have southern accents.

jimfix

August 31st, 2009, 05:58 AM

The majority of Fountain Squarians speak in banjo like tongues.

izatapit?

youshutyermoutaforibeatyerass! getinthahouse!

cdc guy

August 31st, 2009, 03:23 PM

Just because a central Indiana accent sounds like a "southern" accent to a Chicagoan doesn't make it so. A person from the midwest might not be able to distinguish between Boston/NYC/Philly/Baltimore accents. A person from the south might think that people from Chicago sound just like people from Green Bay. There are differences. The Indianapolis accent is, by definition, a midwestern accent because it is spoken in the midwest and is distinct from what is spoken in the adjacent south.

To a Minneapolitan, I suspect some Chicagoans have southern accents.

As a child my family moved from southern Indiana to the Twin Cities. We were constantly asked from what part of the South we came.

cailes

August 31st, 2009, 04:36 PM

mobyhead

August 31st, 2009, 05:28 PM

izatapit?

youshutyermoutaforibeatyerass! getinthahouse!

:lol: When I moved here from the Chicago area in '92 it did seem like everyone had a somewhat "southern accent". Now when I visit family up there the opposite happens. I think they talk funny, "da Bears".

ablerock

August 31st, 2009, 07:31 PM

Hey, just got back from Indy. I know you wanted some feedback. Like I said in the thread, I honestly didn't expect much at all from this city, and I wasn't disappointed. The whole city really felt like a giant, redneck suburb...and I couldn't find one remotely interesting area to venture into. I had excellent sushi there however! So that's something!

Just being honest. I really am spoiled here in Chicago.

I am 100% Indianapolis.

I love:

Demolition Derby
Roller Derby
The Indianapolis 500
The State Fair
The Peppy Grill
Campfires
4 Wheelers
Sweet Tea
Corn on the Cob
Ketchup on my eggs
saying "y'all"
Riding in the back of a truck
Playing washers/cornhole
etc.

And I guarantee you I am 10x cooler than your friend. :-)

Harpua

August 31st, 2009, 09:05 PM

Harpua

August 31st, 2009, 09:08 PM

However, the redneck opinion is pretty spot on. I feel inundated by redneck and white trash culture on a daily basis and they breed like rabbits.

Lol, tell us how you really feel, Ben. But honestly, look at where we live... I think that feeling comes from viewing the city through the lens of Fountain Square,.

Harpua

August 31st, 2009, 09:10 PM

arenn

August 31st, 2009, 10:01 PM

Affordability is a function of desirability. Now, I have no desire to live in either place's suburbs, but how anyone could reasonably state that Indianapolis is a better place to live because it's affordable is really beyond me.

Desirability plays a role, as I've said myself many times. But there is more to it than that. Supply is another factor. Indy is flat, with no obstructions in any direction, has a very pro-growth development policy, reasonable tax rates, and more. Given our starting size, Indy can grow indefinitely without compromising on those points, as places like Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas have shown.

caliboy28

August 31st, 2009, 10:07 PM

For Pete's sake!!! The way some people talk about Indianapolis you'd think it was Possum Holler, TN! I consider myself to be fairly well traveled - grew up in Indy, have lived in Atlanta, Chicago and now Los Angeles and Indy is a fantastic city with qualities that make it BETTER than those places in some ways. Indy may not be as "cosmopolitan" as Chicago but, honestly, few cities in the U.S. are... I don't think it's fair to single out Indy when very few of the 30 largest American cities would compare any better. And the way some people are throwing around and using the term red-neck on here is kind of offensive! The dude from Chicago sounds like a douchebag if you ask me.....

thundermutt

August 31st, 2009, 10:57 PM

Maybe Appalachian is the more appropriate term?

"Appalachian-American" is an academic/polite society, tongue-in-cheek play on "African-American" as a term for "hilljack" or "hillbilly".

Distinct from "Hoosier" even if the people from Chicago don't think so.

benjaminooo

August 31st, 2009, 11:29 PM

Lol, tell us how you really feel, Ben. But honestly, look at where we live... I think that feeling comes from viewing the city through the lens of Fountain Square,.

It's pretty stunning considering Fountain Sq's proximity to Downtown. My opinions on the East & West sides aren't much different.

ablerock

September 1st, 2009, 12:37 AM

It's pretty stunning considering Fountain Sq's proximity to Downtown. My opinions on the East & West sides aren't much different.

Eastside: Real gangstas
Westside: Wannabe gangstas
Southside: Hilljacks
Northside: Clones

socrates#1fan

September 1st, 2009, 01:53 AM

Maybe Appalachian is the more appropriate term?

Not really, it is still associated with redneck.
I don't know what term would really work well except country.

I will say this though, even when living in rural Indiana here are a few things I've been told and eventually noticed about my hometown and county
1) Everyone says pop
2) Only pompous jerks say the "L" in talk, walk, and stalk.
3) We "talk through our noses or like we have something in our mouths"
4) A large gathering of people at church for dinner is called a pitch in; I used to think it was one word, like Pitchin or something.
However, it is like an unspoken rule to keep your eggs free of ketchup. :bleep:

But even then there are southern influences, like saying ‘Ya’ll’ and other such things.

Deuter0nomy

September 1st, 2009, 02:51 AM

It's pretty stunning considering Fountain Sq's proximity to Downtown. My opinions on the East & West sides aren't much different.

The South Boston ("Southie") neighborhood in Boston is about the same distance from Boston's financial district as Fountain Square is from the Mile Square. It, too, is gentrifying steadily. But the old-timers are working class Irish and still comprise about 75% of the population there. They would probably qualify as the New England equivalent of hillbillies or rednecks (all hateful terms really), with a large percentage of white kids in gangs (or at least think they're in gangs), pregnant teens, sagging pants, sideways baseball caps, etc. I won't continue with these generalizations because I think you get the idea. This is in close proximity to one of the wealthiest cities in the country (or world).

The minority population in Southie is about the same as Fountain Square (10%-15% AfAm, slightly less Latino). But the locals of Southie have a far far worse reputation for racial intolerance than anything I've ever heard about in Fountain Square.

West side of Indy is blue collar through and through (at least between downtown and Speedway). The housing stock on the East Side actually suggests to me that it had some tony neighborhoods, much like the North Side did. However, the North Side reached its lowest point in the 1980s if not earlier, whereas the East Side hit a nadir far more recently and is only beginning to re-emerge.

arenn

September 1st, 2009, 03:56 AM

arenn

September 1st, 2009, 03:58 AM

Ablerock my friend has a similar story about why he lives on the west side. He puts it like this:

"The North Side is all rich people, the South Side is the white trash, the East Side is the ghetto - so I live on the West Side".

Gotta love those stereotypes.

cdc guy

September 1st, 2009, 04:48 AM

West side of Indy is blue collar through and through (at least between downtown and Speedway). The housing stock on the East Side actually suggests to me that it had some tony neighborhoods, much like the North Side did. However, the North Side reached its lowest point in the 1980s if not earlier, whereas the East Side hit a nadir far more recently and is only beginning to re-emerge.

The North side never really did "hit bottom".

Most of the NESCO neighborhoods were already getting pretty bad in the 80's. It's been a long slide down.

Deuter0nomy

September 1st, 2009, 05:07 AM

The North side never really did "hit bottom".

Most of the NESCO neighborhoods were already getting pretty bad in the 80's. It's been a long slide down.

Interesting that you should say this about the North Side. Are you implying that it still is declining, or that neighborhoods such as Herron Morton, Fall Creek Place, or Mapleton never declined at all? I'm simply suggesting that the northside reached a nadir in terms of its own economic health and vacancy levels, before beginning the patterns of revitalization we are currently witnessing. No, the north side never became anything like Detroit. But Fall Creek Place (or whatever it was called prior to redevelopment) came awfully close.

East Side in parts does look like Detroit. But I think the worst days are behind it as well. Apparently parts of the East Side like Arsenal Heights were already considered slum-like at the time of the Sylvia Likens murder in the early 1960s.

My own opinion--and I'd love to hear others'--is that the neighborhoods currently in a state of ineluctable decline are those around 38th and Post. I don't see urban pioneers finding that part of town fashionable any time soon, if ever.

Deuter0nomy

September 1st, 2009, 05:10 AM

Fountain Square and surrounds has long been known as an Appalachian enclave. It is, in effect, an ethnic neighborhood. If you talk to people who live there many of them are, even today, "fresh off the boat" from West Virginia. While doing some research a while back, I stumbled across a mention of a study called "The Appalachian in Indianapolis" that was commissioned by the city while Richard Lugar was mayor (1960's). The idea was to determine if they had special needs that warranted some special city attention or services. (I believe the conclusion was No).

If I recall correctly, they decided otherwise in Cincinnati, and Appalachians are protected under anti-discrimination ordinances. Granted, Cincinnati probably has a larger contingent than Indianapolis due to geographic proximity. I've heard that Columbus has a similar enclave as well.

idyllic indy

September 1st, 2009, 05:23 AM

The Chicago superiority complex rears its ugly head yet again, I see.

In terms of the total package, Indy doesn't compare quite favorably to Chicago, but for what it is, Indy really is a kick-ass town and that pretty much sums it up.

If your definition of a kick-ass town is one where rare is the location in the inner-city that you can catch a bus after 8 p.m.

arenn

September 1st, 2009, 05:29 AM

East Side in parts does look like Detroit. But I think the worst days are behind it as well. Apparently parts of the East Side like Arsenal Heights were already considered slum-like at the time of the Sylvia Likens murder in the early 1960s.

The characteristic of Detroit is extreme abandonment, tons of vacant lots, the "feral houses" I posted, etc. This is not the East Side which retains most of its housing stock and which has some of the highest building densities in the city. Poverty, crime, etc. does not make a place Detroit.

Honestly, if anyplace is Detroit, it is the north side. Drive up College and see huge amounts of vacant land and beyond dilapidated houses around Fall Creek Place and elsewhere.

The East Side has the worst reputation and many problems, but has the highest redevelopment potential. It's got more character than most of Indy (intact 'hoods like Irvington, the city's only real linear commercial street in 10th St, Woodruff Place, the grass medians of Emerson Heights, the occasional brick street, etc.), good density, easy access to downtown.

idyllic indy

September 1st, 2009, 05:33 AM

My own opinion--and I'd love to hear others'--is that the neighborhoods currently in a state of ineluctable decline are those around 38th and Post. I don't see urban pioneers finding that part of town fashionable any time soon, if ever.

I haven't spent a great deal of time in the area between I-465, Carroll Road, 46th Street, & I-70, but I can't foresee the area doing anything but declining for many decades to come. Other than freeway access, what does the area have to offer? Parks? Good schools? Public transportation? Cultural districts? Entertainment? Nice shopping? Fine dining? Sidewalks? Oh, and finally, I should probably mention quality housing stock?

idyllic indy

September 1st, 2009, 05:37 AM

The East Side has the worst reputation and many problems, but has the highest redevelopment potential. It's got more character than most of Indy (intact 'hoods like Irvington, the city's only real linear commercial street in 10th St, Woodruff Place, the grass medians of Emerson Heights, the occasional brick street, etc.), good density, easy access to downtown.

For really good access to downtown, how about grade-separating the rail crossings at Michigan & New York. Probably too expensive, eh?

Did anyone see the plans for 10th Street that were recently put together by Storrow Kinsella? They're proposing "sharrows", a pavement marking that indicates that the vehicles need to share the street with bicyclists. Apparently, these would be used in places where this isn't enough space for a full bike lane.

arenn

September 1st, 2009, 05:58 AM

DPW adopted Chicago's bike lane standards, which specify a minimum of five feet for a dedicated bike lane. Below that they use sharrows, similar to Chicago, which has many sharrowed routes. Actually, Chicago's bike lane standards aren't that ambitious. They are a decent base, but much more could be done. Good place to start though.

cwilson758

September 1st, 2009, 03:17 PM

cdc guy

September 1st, 2009, 04:08 PM

For really good access to downtown, how about grade-separating the rail crossings at Michigan & New York. Probably too expensive, eh?

Probably so, as the Interstate would have to be raised. Sewers and Pogues Run dictate the (very short) distance the streets could be lowered, the bottom of the Interstate overpasses dictate how much the tracks could be raised.

Note that Market goes under the tracks, but a mere block north Ohio, Pine, and Davidson wouldn't fit under.

Did anyone see the plans for 10th Street that were recently put together by Storrow Kinsella? They're proposing "sharrows", a pavement marking that indicates that the vehicles need to share the street with bicyclists. Apparently, these would be used in places where this isn't enough space for a full bike lane.

I was more interested in the roundabout they proposed for 10th & Rural. I can't imagine a worse place for one in the metro area.

cdc guy

September 1st, 2009, 04:31 PM

Interesting that you should say this about the North Side. Are you implying that it still is declining, or that neighborhoods such as Herron Morton, Fall Creek Place, or Mapleton never declined at all? I'm simply suggesting that the northside reached a nadir in terms of its own economic health and vacancy levels, before beginning the patterns of revitalization we are currently witnessing. No, the north side never became anything like Detroit. But Fall Creek Place (or whatever it was called prior to redevelopment) came awfully close.

It was called "Dodge City", and you're right. If you look at a 1998 aerial, it was 80% vacant lots in places. But by then, the City was demo-ing and land-banking for the Fall Creek Place project.

I was unclear in my initial post. I consider "the north side" to be NORTH of 38th St. in Washington Twp. to Broad Ripple. The Center Twp. neighborhoods downtown to 38th are "the near north side". Those neighborhoods (Old Northside, Herron Morton, Methodist Vicinity, United Northwest Area, Ransom Place, Meridian Highland, Fall Creek Place, Mapleton-Fall Creek, Highland Vicinity, and Crown Hill) were also pretty far down by the 1970's. Methodist vicinity, Meridian Highland, ONS and Herron Morton started their comeback in the 80's, and Ransom Place in the 90's, but the neighborhoods north/west of Fall Creek are still dicey and block by block.

East Side in parts does look like Detroit. But I think the worst days are behind it as well. Apparently parts of the East Side like Arsenal Heights were already considered slum-like at the time of the Sylvia Likens murder in the early 1960s.

Yes. There were some scary stretches of New York and Michigan clear back at the beginning of the 80's.

My own opinion--and I'd love to hear others'--is that the neighborhoods currently in a state of ineluctable decline are those around 38th and Post. I don't see urban pioneers finding that part of town fashionable any time soon, if ever.

Much of the band centered on 34th from Northwest HS on the west side (Eagledale) over to the John Marshall area on the far east-northeast side is going to be bulldozer-ready in the coming decade, excluding the neighborhoods between White River and Fall Creek that are much older and better-built. For a preview, look at the neighborhood north of Raytheon (former Naval Avionics).

Largely slab-on-grade low-pitch-roof plywood boxes, when the major systems (plumbing, mechanical and roof) fail, those houses are goners.

Wu-Gambino

September 1st, 2009, 05:50 PM

Much of the band centered on 34th from Northwest HS on the west side (Eagledale) over to the John Marshall area on the far east-northeast side is going to be bulldozer-ready in the coming decade, excluding the neighborhoods between White River and Fall Creek that are much older and better-built. For a preview, look at the neighborhood north of Raytheon (former Naval Avionics).

Largely slab-on-grade low-pitch-roof plywood boxes, when the major systems (plumbing, mechanical and roof) fail, those houses are goners.
Agreed 100%, factor in that a lot of these areas are still in IPS and the commercial structures (old, auto-centric retail buildings) have aged terribly, I don't see much future attempts at revitalization for these parts of town.

At least the rough areas on the near north and near/mid east sides have potential since the housing stock is historical.

The homicide map tells a similar tale.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/NEWS02/80304038

There are still the stereotypical inner-city neighborhoods like Riverside and parts of the Near Northside. It's amazing driving down Arlington Avenue from 38th Street and seeing the neighborhoods get better as you go in to the city.

Deuter0nomy

September 1st, 2009, 08:47 PM

The characteristic of Detroit is extreme abandonment, tons of vacant lots, the "feral houses" I posted, etc. This is not the East Side which retains most of its housing stock and which has some of the highest building densities in the city. Poverty, crime, etc. does not make a place Detroit.

Honestly, if anyplace is Detroit, it is the north side. Drive up College and see huge amounts of vacant land and beyond dilapidated houses around Fall Creek Place and elsewhere.

The East Side has the worst reputation and many problems, but has the highest redevelopment potential. It's got more character than most of Indy (intact 'hoods like Irvington, the city's only real linear commercial street in 10th St, Woodruff Place, the grass medians of Emerson Heights, the occasional brick street, etc.), good density, easy access to downtown.

I agree with you in large part about Detroit analogies, but keep in mind that not all of Detroit is vast stretches of vacant land. Your own blog post pointed out one of the more extreme examples, but a drive down Woodward Avenue still reveals economic devastation--lots of vacant and boarded up homes, but relatively few vacant lots. That is more what I had in mind.

I agree with you completely that the East Side has the most redevelopment potential.

NaptownBoy

September 2nd, 2009, 12:15 AM

Agreed 100%, factor in that a lot of these areas are still in IPS and the commercial structures (old, auto-centric retail buildings) have aged terribly, I don't see much future attempts at revitalization for these parts of town.

At least the rough areas on the near north and near/mid east sides have potential since the housing stock is historical.

The homicide map tells a similar tale.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/NEWS02/80304038

There are still the stereotypical inner-city neighborhoods like Riverside and parts of the Near Northside. It's amazing driving down Arlington Avenue from 38th Street and seeing the neighborhoods get better as you go in to the city.
Some of the inner ring suburbs, like Eagledale out west and Devington on the east side, have begun deteriorating almost to the point of their inner-city counterparts. It's fascinating from an urban planning standpoint, because these are areas that literally barely existed 50 years ago.

NaptownBoy

September 2nd, 2009, 12:25 AM

Concerning this accent/dialect discussion, I have been told that I have a southern twang. Being from Anderson, a former major Genral Motors desitination, many of the residents from that city migrated from the south and appalachian areas (as did my family) and nearly all of the my friends and I speak similarly. It wasn't until I went to school in Bloomington that I "discovered" I had a Hoosier drawl.
Funny that you mention this, one of my professors once discussed how the old industrial cities (Muncie, Anderson, Marion, etc) always seemed to attract Southerners because of the jobs, but unlike immigrants, they never really "assimilated" into the culture of the cities.

NaptownBoy

September 2nd, 2009, 12:35 AM

There's an entire subdivision bounded by 21st, Arlington, and I-70 that's full of boarded up houses and deserted streets. It's really creepy to have to drive through there and see it in that condition, but it also makes you think about the ever changing character of our cities. Check it out on Street View if you have a minute or two.

I suppose it's inevitable though, and unfortunately we'll be seeing more 50's and 60's-era subdivisions moving in that direction in the coming decade.

hoosier

September 2nd, 2009, 05:02 AM

I lived near Chicago (Lake County) for six months and HATED IT. Chicagoans are some of the most arrogant assholes I have ever met. They think they shit ice cream when in reality they just have fucked up taste buds. There are VAST swaths of Chicago that are run down dilapidated ghettoes.

As for accents, I am from south-central Indiana and have no "twang" or hint of a Southern accent. Perhaps this is because my parents are not from Indiana.

araman0

September 2nd, 2009, 05:19 AM

I suppose it's inevitable though, and unfortunately we'll be seeing more 50's and 60's-era subdivisions moving in that direction in the coming decade.

Good. I'd rather the 50s/60s suburbs decline in place of the inner city.

idyllic indy

September 2nd, 2009, 05:28 AM

I was more interested in the roundabout they proposed for 10th & Rural. I can't imagine a worse place for one in the metro area.

I didn't really make a snap judgment on that one. Probably because I didn't think it was remotely possible that it would happen.

idyllic indy

September 2nd, 2009, 05:33 AM

Probably so, as the Interstate would have to be raised. Sewers and Pogues Run dictate the (very short) distance the streets could be lowered, the bottom of the Interstate overpasses dictate how much the tracks could be raised.

Note that Market goes under the tracks, but a mere block north Ohio, Pine, and Davidson wouldn't fit under.

As I've said many a time before, I aint no engineer, but... while I recognize the issues with Pogues Run and the Interstate, I think if there was the will do it, some type of design solution could be worked out, at least to provide grade separation at the Michigan Street crossing, if not both streets. Grade separation at Michigan would work well with a conversion of these streets to two-way traffic...

Sinking the whole rail corridor would be ideal, especially to eliminate the awful crossing at Rural Street.

JohnM Indy

September 2nd, 2009, 01:17 PM

Grade separation at Michigan would work well with a conversion of these streets to two-way traffic...

I don't want to reopen the Michigan-New York debate, but it seems to me that converting them to two way streets would make it even more difficult to justify the expense of getting those streets over or under the tracks. Whether you consider it a good thing or a bad thing, conversion to two-way traffic would make Michigan and NY less appealing as ways to get downtown. With existing underpasses at Washington, Market, and 10th, I'm not sure I can see the justification for both conversion and grade separation.

AmericanDirt

September 2nd, 2009, 02:36 PM

I haven't spent a great deal of time in the area between I-465, Carroll Road, 46th Street, & I-70, but I can't foresee the area doing anything but declining for many decades to come. Other than freeway access, what does the area have to offer? Parks? Good schools? Public transportation? Cultural districts? Entertainment? Nice shopping? Fine dining? Sidewalks? Oh, and finally, I should probably mention quality housing stock?

The area I am thinking of is low income these days and thus has very little retail beyond what you expect from low income places (check cashing, pawn shops, fast food, athletic shoes, hair and nails). Some of the amenities you mentioned--nice shopping, entertainment, fine dining--aren't to be found anywhere there is such high concentration of poverty. The neighborhood doesn't lack desirability because it doesn't have those--the fact is those are nowhere to be seen because the demographics don't support it. 86th Street has plenty of upscale dining places despite being as suburban as it gets.

In regards to others, public transportation is fairly good out there, considering it is Indy and this is relatively far from the core. After all, there's a large population there who probably cannot afford cars. Sidewalks are better than many streets in the outer township, in that at least one side of the street has them and there are scattered cross walks. All the inner subdivisions have sidewalks.

With regards to housing quality, frankly, CDC guy may be right when he says they'll be bulldozer ready in a decade, but I hope not. I'm not convinced these are worse than average-quality construction and that there are plenty of examples of shoddier construction dating from the past 20 years in the actual suburbs. Eagledale and similar neighborhoods reflect a popular 1950s and early 1960s-era housing vernacular in the immediate aftermath of Levittown, and while it involves a lot of standardization, some of the stick-built material was popular then (and remains so today) even in historic areas. And one of the Levittowns (New York I think) was introduced to the National Register a few years ago, suggesting that this largely sneered-at development has transcended its bland suburban trappings to become a vernacular people are recognizing as important in its own right. Most Levittowns are now in what would be considered inner-ring suburbs, but they are hanging on--if the area around Eagledale can benefit from a sort of aesthetic reinvention, I think those homes might be spared the bulldozer. The neighborhood around Eagledale is less impoverished too, more heterogenous (very multinational). I'm not so sure about 38th and Post (which is almost uniformly poor African Americans), even though the homes are slightly larger and newer.