Upgrading the Wellington Northern Corridor is expected to lower the cost of road transport between Wellington and the rest of the North Island and will improve connections between all parts of the Wellington region.

The Government’s immediate priority is to improve roading links through and within the Kapiti Coast.

The Kapiti Coast is one of the fastest growing districts in New Zealand, growing nearly 10% in five years to a population of 46,000 in 2006. Raumati, Paraparaumu and Waikanae have become key commuter towns for Wellington.

The high volume of traffic means the Kapiti highway operates beyond its capacity and can become severely congested at peak times.

The pressure on the local roads and State Highway 1 is such that the Kapiti Coast District Council has restricted some developments until road conditions are improved.

The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) is developing the highway so efficient access to and from the local road network is also ensured. This is a challenging task on the Kapiti Coast where an effective, parallel local road network does not exist.

The proposed SH1 Expressway will depart from the current state highway in some places and, where this happens, the current highway will become a local access road. An example from both the options presented in this brochure is the stretch of highway from Paraparaumu Railway overbridge to Waikanae which will continue to be used – but as a local road.

More here:
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/kapiti-consultation/background.html

Please bypass Levin, and please bypass Otaki with an alternative bridge over the Otaki River.

Please bypass Levin, and please bypass Otaki with an alternative bridge over the Otaki River.

This one does not look like its ever going to actually go ahead.

The people up the coast are opposing it. They have even set up their own blog where you can vote against the proposed options for the road.

http://the3rdkapitioption.blogspot.com :ohno:

Government needs to step in, get on with it and just build the dam highway.

:banana:

Transmission Gully gets draft approval

Wellington's Transmission Gully has been given draft approval, almost a century after it was first mooted.

In a draft decision released today an independent board of inquiry, administered by the Environmental Protection Agency said it would approve resource consent for the $1 billion, 27km inland highway from Linden to north of Paekakariki...

TOM HUNT
© Fairfax NZ News

oops forgot the link

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6861445/Transmission-Gully-gets-draft-approval

is this the corridor between Auckland and wellington?

is this the corridor between Auckland and wellington?

yip

here we go...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7152817/930m-Transmission-Gully-road-plan-finalised

Will believe it when I see it. There's still room for court appeal.

Cant wait for this to get underway.

I used to be all for it but apparently traffic on SH1 into Wellington has actually dropped 5% recently.

It's about time for people to realise that the world is not destined for never-ending population and economic growth. Eventually, people in developing countries will start using protection when they have their special cuddles, world population growth will slow down, oil will run out and roads will get emptier as people look to public transport to be part of the solution.

I'm not a hippie by any stretch of the imagination, but I reckon if traffic on SH1 is already decreasing, let's encourage the trend by improving train services further with that 930mil.

I have no issue with Transmission Gully, but one has to wonder how the cost projections managed to double in just a short space of time. I'm quite sure the ecological and stabilising measures have little to do with it.

I used to be all for it but apparently traffic on SH1 into Wellington has actually dropped 5% recently.

It's about time for people to realise that the world is not destined for never-ending population and economic growth. Eventually, people in developing countries will start using protection when they have their special cuddles, world population growth will slow down, oil will run out and roads will get emptier as people look to public transport to be part of the solution.

I'm not a hippie by any stretch of the imagination, but I reckon if traffic on SH1 is already decreasing, let's encourage the trend by improving train services further with that 930mil.

Can you supply some proof of those figures?

I drive the road every day and traffic seems to be increasing. And so do the amount of accidents ...

What the green hippies keep believing is that one day everybody is going to be riding public transport. Thats not the case. Even the environment friendly cars need roads. Its not only about economic growth. NZ has some of the worst most dangerous roads in the developed world. Third world countries like South Africa put us to shame. Its about catching up...

Today the Wellington public transport costs have been increased again. Yet the cost of petrol is at its lowest price in years. Driving is getting more affordable as the days go by. Public transport costs are ever increasing.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/kapiti-observer/7159355/Gully-route-approved

he light is green for Transmission Gully highway after final approval from the board of inquiry on Friday.

Only a successful High Court appeal can now stop the project, with opponents given 15 working days to appeal the decision, and only on a point of law.

The $930 million highway could be finished as early as 2021. Work is scheduled to start in 2015 on the 27 kilometre four-lane road from Linden to MacKay's Crossing, estimated to shave 10 minutes off peak time travel between Kapiti and Wellington.

continues ...

The $930 million highway could be finished as early as 2021. Work is scheduled to start in 2015 on the 27 kilometre four-lane road from Linden to MacKay's Crossing, estimated to shave 10 minutes off peak time travel between Kapiti and Wellington. continues ...

$930m....just to get somewhere quicker by 10mins?.....during peak time (6hrs a day? So the other 18hrs, its fine?) and that time saving will presumably be eaten up over time given that (by your account) traffic is increasing and becoming moe affordable.

Trust me - its not just the hippies who see this as p!ssing $930m into a hole....

Can you supply some proof of those figures?

I drive the road every day and traffic seems to be increasing. And so do the amount of accidents ...

What the green hippies keep believing is that one day everybody is going to be riding public transport. Thats not the case. Even the environment friendly cars need roads. Its not only about economic growth. NZ has some of the worst most dangerous roads in the developed world. Third world countries like South Africa put us to shame. Its about catching up...

Today the Wellington public transport costs have been increased again. Yet the cost of petrol is at its lowest price in years. Driving is getting more affordable as the days go by. Public transport costs are ever increasing.

Can't remember where I read it. Oh here it is: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/transmission-gully/6919679/Transmission-Gully-figures-don-t-stack-up

I remembered the figure incorrectly, traffic has decreased 1% in the past 5 years and increased 2% in the last ten years. basically there's nowhere near enough increase in traffic to justify a new road. But the fact that the new road will apparently be less quake susceptible is a plus.

Surely it'd be much more than 10mins in the peak times. I reckon it will save at least 10mins in the OFF-peak. Having been that route several times in the last 2 weeks (Tawa to Levin), the highway is incredibly slow between Paremata and Waikanae, with all the roundabouts, traffic lights and slow speed zones. Driving north in the late-morning/lunch, it can take 30mins sometimes which is just ridiculous. A bypassing motoroway is just what the doctor ordered to get into and out of Wellington freely.

10mins between kapiti and Wellington, 15mins between kapiti and the Hutt. That's it. And that's peak, according to the NZTA themselves.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/transmission-gully/faqs.html

Massive time savings for only 1/4 of the time the road is available. And as with most of these roading projects, where does the traffic go when the motorway ends south? Straight into a bottleneck at ngauranga gorge. So really, people will be getting into a city bound jam 10 mins quicker. That's all.

Can't remember where I read it. Oh here it is: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/transmission-gully/6919679/Transmission-Gully-figures-don-t-stack-up

I remembered the figure incorrectly, traffic has decreased 1% in the past 5 years and increased 2% in the last ten years. basically there's nowhere near enough increase in traffic to justify a new road. But the fact that the new road will apparently be less quake susceptible is a plus.

Fair enough. But one can argue that the roads are already far exceeding their recommended capacity. Regardless if traffic has decreases by 1%.

And the article is also focused around petrol prices. One day we will all be riding electric cars.. Is the petrol price still going to be a denominating factor? Electric cars will use roads too. And as mentioned in my earlier post. The only price that seems to be going up is the public transport price. Petrol has come down quiet conciderably in the last year.

There has been far too much traffic on the road for over 10years. That justifies it enough. The fact that the roads are so unsafe also justifies it.

How many people have died on these roads? The road between waikanae and Parapraumu is a fine example. Next time have a look at all the crash sites and crosses/flowers where people have died.

We call it state highway 1. Yet its does not even come close to a highway.

10mins between kapiti and Wellington, 15mins between kapiti and the Hutt. That's it. And that's peak, according to the NZTA themselves.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/transmission-gully/faqs.html

Massive time savings for only 1/4 of the time the road is available. And as with most of these roading projects, where does the traffic go when the motorway ends south? Straight into a bottleneck at ngauranga gorge. So really, people will be getting into a city bound jam 10 mins quicker. That's all.

Cant say I agree with your 10minute assumtion. especially in traffic.

My current bottle necks:

1) Paramaraumu
2) Paekakariki all the way to ..
3) Pukura Bay in heavy traffic
4) Plimerton
5) Mana
6) ngauranga gorge

Absolute bonus if I have to only deal with ngauranga gorge

Fair enough. But one can argue that the roads are already far exceeding their recommended capacity. Regardless if traffic has decreases by 1%.

And the article is also focused around petrol prices. One day we will all be riding electric cars.. Is the petrol price still going to be a denominating factor? Electric cars will use roads too. And as mentioned in my earlier post. The only price that seems to be going up is the public transport price. Petrol has come down quiet conciderably in the last year.

There has been far too much traffic on the road for over 10years. That justifies it enough. The fact that the roads are so unsafe also justifies it.

How many people have died on these roads? The road between waikanae and Parapraumu is a fine example. Next time have a look at all the crash sites and crosses/flowers where people have died.

We call it state highway 1. Yet its does not even come close to a highway.

I'm not sure we will all be using electric cars. Yes, electric cars will be the only cars soon enough, but there's still plenty more room for uptake of public transport in Wellington.

I'm not sure we will all be using electric cars. Yes, electric cars will be the only cars soon enough, but there's still plenty more room for uptake of public transport in Wellington.

Cars and roads are here to stay ... what powers them will obviously change ...

SH1 upgrade is to improve the corridor between Auckland and Wellington. Public transport actually has nothing to do with it

This backwards greeny mentality in NZ needs to change. Its the reason why this country is not progressing forward and is remaining in the 20th century.:ohno:

Cant say I agree with your 10minute assumtion. especially in traffic.

My current bottle necks:

1) Paramaraumu
2) Paekakariki all the way to ..
3) Pukura Bay in heavy traffic
4) Plimerton
5) Mana
6) ngauranga gorge

Absolute bonus if I have to only deal with ngauranga gorge

Not my assumption. Its NZTA's.The guys charged with selling this project to the public,and who I am hoping know more about this than you or I combined.

This backwards greeny mentality in NZ needs to change. Its the reason why this country is not progressing forward and is remaining in the 20th century.:ohno:

Dear dear. Let me guess - never lived outside of NZ?

Trust me when I tell you that any advancing economy - developed or developing - is using high-capacity PT as the future of its transport system. I've lived in both types of economies, so I know. Why? Take a look either side of you next time you are in a crawl heading in/out of Wellington. NZ has been building roads for 50yrs and by everyone's estimation - even yours - traffic is worse than its ever been. Some would see a trend there......

NZ, if it wants, can keep doing the same thing and expect a different result - but its moronic. The only one backward here is NZ.

And please spare me the scaremongering that somehow spending on PT means you won't be able to use your car, or it somehow indicates an expectation cars will disappear. Childish. That's the idiotic thing about this debate. Its giving people choices, but some would rather impose their choices on others. If we build this road does that mean everyone who is currently taking rail has to stop and start commuting by car? Of course not. You and others are welcome to keep driving...or should I say, crawling, in traffic.

Dear dear. Let me guess - never lived outside of NZ?

Trust me when I tell you that any advancing economy - developed or developing - is using high-capacity PT as the future of its transport system. Why? Take a look either side of you next time you are in a crawl heading in/out of Wellington. NZ has been building roads for 50yrs and by everyone's estimation - even yours - traffic is worse than its ever been. Some would a trend there......

NZ, if it wants, can keep doing the same thing and expect a different result - but its moronic. The only one backward here is NZ.

And please spare me the scaremongering that somehow spending on PT means you won't be able to use your car, or it somehow indicates an expectation cars will disappear. Childish. You and others are welcome to keep driving...or should I say, crawling, in traffic.

:bash:
I’m not a kiwi. Been in NZ for 5 years now... And it has always disapointed me how backwards thinking people here can be.

FYI .. Advanced economies have mostly excellent public transport along with excelent roads/infrustructure. NZ, apart from parts of Auckland unfortuanitly has nether ...

FYI .. Advanced economies have mostly excellent public transport along with excelent roads/infrustructure. NZ, apart from parts of Auckland unfortuanitly has nether ...

And yet you only advocate for one type of spending, labelling the other (PT) as "greeny" and "backward"??? So you don't have any aspirations for Auckland to be "advanced"?

Money should be spent on both - adequately.

Money should be spent on both - adequately.

Agreed. But roads have to catch up... Rail/PT is not that far behind.

Agreed. But roads have to catch up... Rail/PT is not that far behind.

That has to be a joke.....

That has to be a joke.....

Have a look at Brisbane for example ...
Wellington's rail system is not that far behind ...
Then compare our roads ... they a joke.

I agree with whoever it was that said this Transmission Gully road is a separate issue from public transport. While we all love and advocate for better PT, we cannot ignore the fact that we need a quick and efficient arterial route into and out of our fine city. This is the case for all cities the world over.

The TGM will be a blessing in disguise I reckon. It will open up areas like Belmont, Whitby, Puautahanui, Haywards, etc, which are really the only areas left for Wellington to grow and expand.

Dear dear. Let me guess - never lived outside of NZ?

And how is this relevant? :lol:

Because in my personal experience, comments on PT like "its for greenies", "its backward" and (my personal favourite), "its 19th century technology" are from people who have never lived outside of NZ and used PT for commuting purposes. They haven't first-hand witnessed the benefits of investing in rapid PT networks (and that doesn't have to be just rail). I include my own extended family members in that group.

Were these people to have that experience they would see that its NZ's approach to transport issues that is backward, not the rest of the world.

That doesn't, of course, apply to everybody and its just my personal experience.

^^ Different countries, different circumstances. What works in Europe will not necessarily have the same effect in NZ. I agree that PT should be more of priority in New Zealand, and even though roads are more important, there needs to be more of a balance in spending to ensure that people have the option to travel by PT if they wish.

Because in my personal experience, comments on bla bla bla are from people who have never lived outside of NZ and bla bla bla. They haven't first-hand witnessed the benefits of bla bla bla.

Were these people to have that experience they would see that bla bla bla.



Wow. Prejudiced, redneck, generalization, arrogant, take your pick.

And in the spirit of prejudice everywhere, let's not let facts get in the way of a good rant. NZkiwi indicates above that he's spent most of his life overseas. Not that he should need to justify his or her citizenship in order to voice an opinion. :lol:

Because in my personal experience, comments on PT like "its for greenies", "its backward" and (my personal favourite), "its 19th century technology" are from people who have never lived outside of NZ and used PT for commuting purposes. They haven't first-hand witnessed the benefits of investing in rapid PT networks (and that doesn't have to be just rail). I include my own extended family members in that group.

Were these people to have that experience they would see that its NZ's approach to transport issues that is backward, not the rest of the world.

That doesn't, of course, apply to everybody and its just my personal experience.

The general kiwi way of thinking, that PT is the solution to all transport problems is leading NZ backwards. This mentality will not allow our infrastructure (except maybe PT) to improve (These nutters can even be found in parliament, and coincidently yes, most being green party members). NZ will continue to slide against Australia and most of the rest of the developed world. Greenies hate roads! And they don’t get it. Decent roads with highways and underpasses etc is basic infrastructure in a city. Our roads here in NZ are a disgrace, especially the northern wellington corridor. Anybody that thinks otherwise is npot well travelled, or a member of the green team LOL

I have witnesses decent PT. And honestly, now with the new trains in Wellington its not that bad when comparing it to many other developed countries. Yes there is a lot that can be improved on, but our roads right now are more important. Somehow I don’t think u have done much travelling KLK, because if u had, u would have noticed that our roads just don't match up

Wow. Prejudiced, redneck, generalization, arrogant, take your pick.

And in the spirit of prejudice everywhere, let's not let facts get in the way of a good rant. NZkiwi indicates above that he's spent most of his life overseas. Not that he should need to justify his or her citizenship in order to voice an opinion. :lol:

What a bizarre, idiotic response.....forgive me for commenting on my personal experience of these debates.

The general kiwi way of thinking, that PT is the solution to all transport problems is leading NZ backwards. This mentality will not allow our infrastructure (except maybe PT) to improve (These nutters can even be found in parliament, and coincidently yes, most being green party members). NZ will continue to slide against Australia and most of the rest of the developed world. Greenies hate roads! And they don’t get it. Decent roads with highways and underpasses etc is basic infrastructure in a city. Our roads here in NZ are a disgrace, especially the northern wellington corridor. Anybody that thinks otherwise is npot well travelled, or a member of the green team LOL

Where to start.....

Perhaps I'll just say that, unlike the pro-road lobby who rise up against any decent PT spending, I don't, have not, and never have suggested PT is the answer to all transport problems. The answer is balance. And we don't currently have it.

And anybody advocating more balanced transport spending must be a greenie? Grow up.

I have witnesses decent PT. And honestly, now with the new trains in Wellington its not that bad when comparing it to many other developed countries. Yes there is a lot that can be improved on, but our roads right now are more important. Somehow I don’t think u have done much travelling KLK, because if u had, u would have noticed that our roads just don't match up

You are off on a tangent again. You perceive a threat against roads but the only threat is that the approach to spending might be more balanced. Just like the rest of the world (and yes, even Australia - check Sydney's new PT plans). Sounds reasonable to me.

I don't, have not, and never have suggested PT is the answer to all transport problems. The answer is balance. And we don't currently have it.

Correct. The answer is balance..
PT is good enough... now its time to upgrade our roads.

You are off on a tangent again. You perceive a threat against roads but the only threat is that the approach to spending might be more balanced. Just like the rest of the world (and yes, even Australia - check Sydney's new PT plans). Sounds reasonable to me.

Stop putting words in my mouth ...

Sydney has great new PT plans because their road infrustructure is already developed. NZ's roading infrustructure is not yet nearly good enough ...

:bash:

Correct. The answer is balance..
PT is good enough... now its time to upgrade our roads.

Balance would be spending money on both, rather than drying up funds for one because it is "good enough".

Cat fight!

What a bizarre, idiotic response.....forgive me for commenting on my personal experience of these debates.

Your personal experience of being a bigot?

If you can't see that that's how you come across then sure, you are forgiven. We'll put it down to your upbringing.

Your personal experience of being a bigot?

If you can't see that that's how you come across then sure, you are forgiven. We'll put it down to your upbringing.

You mean like when you dismissed my views and called me a "redneck"?

Time to move on KLK.

Educate us further on "these people" :)

Time to move on.

Good to hear. Random posts hurling personal, unnecessary (and strangely out of context) insults, without adding anything to the debate, are nothing if not a distraction. So back to the topic at hand....

Educate us further on "these people" :)

You mean people in NZ vehemently opposed to any significant mass-transit PT spending (particularly rail) but when quizzed don't have any real experience of it? I don't want to unnecessarily alarm you HC...but they are out there among us.....

I thought it was just me and the people I had spoken to (as alluded to in my earlier post). Then there were numerous references on this site - "the provincial mentality" one poster called it. There were some particularly colourful comments about our current Treasurer, the Good Member for somewhere-down-near-Southland. And the posts from the guy utterly opposed to Len Brown's rail link on the basis it did nothing for him. He was born, bred (and seemed like had barely left) Waiuku (or somewhere near there). And then - shock horror - I stumbled upon the comments section of a pro-Rail Link article on the NZ herald site.....

So "these people" as you refer to them, do exist. Its no crime though. Kind of like my aversion to Ethiopian food - I think its looks dodgy, not value for money and I can't see how it will do the job (in this case, of filling my stomach). But I am committed to giving it a proper go before I insist on my girlfriend not spending some of the weekly budget to make it at home (you see, she's tried it, swears by it and thinks I am being unreasonable....I'm fairly sure she isn't a bigot though.....)

Oh dear :lol::lol::lol:

Time to move on KLK

Oh dear :lol::lol::lol:

Time to move on KLK

Job done :)

Balance would be spending money on both, rather than drying up funds for one because it is "good enough".

Well currently the scale is tipping to the PT side. :bash:

So yes balance will be good. Leave PT and lets bring our roads up to the same level as the current PT level. That will be balance.

Going through Otaki on the bus back to Wellington today makes me think that the Kapiti Expressway must be gonna cut off a heck of a lot more travel time than the gully...

Well currently the scale is tipping to the PT side. :bash:

So yes balance will be good. Leave PT and lets bring our roads up to the same level as the current PT level. That will be balance.

Can you explain further what you mean by bringing roads up to the same level as the current PT level?

Are you talking about funding? or the extent/size of the networks? or how many people they transport?

I find it very confusing when you talk about PT being at a higher level than roads when roads are our primary transport system.

When comparing NZ (Wellington) to the rest of the developed world. Our PT is comparable, its pretty good actually. But look at our roads infrustructure. I'm not from NZ, but one of the first thing that stood out for me when moving here was the bad state of the roads, lack of highways, on/off ramps etc..

Good example is the new tracks all the way to Waikanae with very good PT. But look at the pathetic roads between Wellington and Waikanae. 50km streatch of road takes just under an hour on a good day. Should be 100km/h the entire way. That would decrease the journey time by 20-30minutes on a good day.

The extent/size of the Wellington railway network is great and suites wellington perfectly how it is. Roads need serious work. And the new Transmission Gully and the Kapiti Expressway will do exactly that.

Interesting that the NZTA only identifies, in Wellington, one "high impact" transport issue of regional importance - and its not the Gully. Its PT.

http://transportblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/NZTA-Regional-issues-of-high-medium-impact.jpg

You can read more at: http://transportblog.co.nz/2012/07/11/transport-issues-across-the-country/

NZTA have identified the Wellington Northern Corridor (Levin to Wellington Airport) as one of seven roads of national significance.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/network/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/

For good reason I may add. And the majority of people in Kapiti support the project, hence National did so well in the elections. They got our votes too. :banana:

But look at the pathetic roads between Wellington and Waikanae. 50km streatch of road takes just under an hour on a good day. Should be 100km/h the entire way. That would decrease the journey time by 20-30minutes on a good day.

That is until you get to the bottleneck at either end and the time-saving is lost. And before the 90% of people who use the existing road (and those who were taking PT but now use their car) join you on the new one, further slowing your journey down to well under 100km.

Its called "shifting" the congestion (rather than removing it) and "induced demand" (giving even more people an incentive to drive and thereby increasing cars on the road) which in most cases gets you back to square one.

I'm not against roads - I like a drive as much as the next guy. But it has to be worth the spend and just giving me a nicer road or cutting my drive by 10mins (NZTA's calculation) doesn't sound like a good spend. And that comes out in the NZTA's BCR analaysis of less than 1: that is, for every dollar spent the economic return is less than that $1 - it would lose money.

I'm not saying the BCR and economic return is the be-all-and-end-all - but that's a pretty damning assessment from a pro-roads organisation. What's even more damning is the same organisation directing a huge amount of money to this project, away from one that it itself (rightly or wrongly) identifies as the major transport issue for the region (see the diagram above).

NZTA have identified the Wellington Northern Corridor (Levin to Wellington Airport) as one of seven roads of national significance

Incorrect. Steven Joyce, as Minister of Transport, identified it as a RoNS. Not the NZTA.

NZTA may still see it as of national significance too of course, however judging by their diagram above, they see PT in the region as being of greater regional (and therefore you would think, national) significance.

And that's where the disconnect is. The NZTA - as the transport body - is the expert in these things (or you would think). However central government funds it (mostly through fuel taxes). And if it wants to divert away from what the NZTA thinks is most appropriate (in its capacity as an expert) for whatever reason (and you suggest votes) then it can make that happen. In fact, as I understand it, National actually amended NZTA's mandate so that it prioritises roads on the basis fuel taxes are paid by motorists.

Now whether or not you love/hate roads or PT, the national "transport" association should be, largely, left to its own devices to analyse and direct spending that reflects the best overall transport spend, not be at the whim of whichever government is in power at the time, should it not?

That is until you get to the bottleneck at either end and the time-saving is lost. And before the 90% of people who use the existing road (and those who were taking PT but now use their car) join you on the new one, further slowing your journey down to well under 100km.

You obviously don't drive the road. The bottle neck at Ngauranga Gorge is a tea party compared to all the bottle necks between Paremata and Waikanae.

Its called "shifting" the congestion (rather than removing it) and "induced demand" (giving even more people an incentive to drive and thereby increasing cars on the road) which in most cases gets you back to square one.

Thats crap. Then we may have single lanes between Ngauranga Gorge and Porirua. Your theory then the current expressway is not working? Of course it works. Its hardly ever backed up in those parts.

I'm not against roads - I like a drive as much as the next guy. But it has to be worth the spend and just giving me a nicer road or cutting my drive by 10mins (NZTA's calculation) doesn't sound like a good spend. And that comes out in the NZTA's BCR analaysis of less than 1: that is, for every dollar spent the economic return is less than that $1 - it would lose money.

Not against roads? Yea right! You have already made it clear! Its not just about time consumption. The roads are a death trap currently. How many more people need to die because of the sad state of the roads?

I'm not saying the BCR and economic return is the be-all-and-end-all - but that's a pretty damning assessment from a pro-roads organisation. What's even more damning is the same organisation directing a huge amount of money to this project, away from one that it itself (rightly or wrongly) identifies as the major transport issue for the region (see the diagram above).

Its money well spent as far as I'm concerned. My tax money. And money spent by the goverment I voted for. Government is doing what the majority of the voters want. Here is an idea. Next election. Vote Labour :lol:

Incorrect. Steven Joyce, as Minister of Transport, identified it as a RoNS. Not the NZTA.

umm yea. at the time he was minister of transport. NZTA is run by who? Not Government :bash:

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/network/rons/index.html

NZTA may still see it as of national significance too of course, however judging by their diagram above, they see PT in the region as being of greater regional (and therefore you would think, national) significance.

that diagram and the website its on is dodge

And that's where the disconnect is. The NZTA - as the transport body - is the expert in these things (or you would think). However central government funds it (mostly through fuel taxes). And if it wants to divert away from what the NZTA thinks is most appropriate (in its capacity as an expert) for whatever reason (and you suggest votes) then it can make that happen. In fact, as I understand it, National actually amended NZTA's mandate so that it prioritises roads on the basis fuel taxes are paid by motorists.

Now whether or not you love/hate roads or PT, the national "transport" association should be, largely, left to its own devices to analyse and direct spending that reflects the best overall transport spend, not be at the whim of whichever government is in power at the time, should it not?

Why don't you take your complaints to NZTA? I'm sure there is somebody there that will listen to them?

I'm certainly not anti-roads - far from it, its a bit naive to think that just because I oppose one road I oppose all roads. I don't. But I see it would be convenient to think that if all the evidence pointed to a particular project being a waste of money and I pointed it out. I didn't judge it subjectively - I just reviewed the analysis by which all such projects are supposed to be judged and funded (or not). And that analysis was less than average. It was bad.

If it was a PT project, I'd be advocating the same sort of re-think. You probably don't believe that - not my problem.

Incidentally, I have driven the road hundreds of times - literally - in fact I used to do it every second week. Your claims of why the road should be built seem to have either been written off as exaggerated by the NZTA (a crown agency, not the ministry of transport - its an important distinction) or of low importance, (I assume road deaths is in the former). hence it is such a bad return on investment. But hey, that's just the national transport body...

Embaressingly, Joyce admitted in parliament Q&A that the necessary BCR analysis was not done prior to him announcing the RoNs. Hardly good policy. I expect better from my elected officials. Then again, Joyce wasn't elected. He's a list MP.

While I dont agree with all this in-house bickering, I do agree with the Kapiti Expressway, and that the route out of Wellington should be open 100km all the way past Levin. I was in Wellington last month and was appalled at how long it took to get from Porirua to Otaki. Traffic lights, slow zones, single lanes, just a nightmare. I'm hoping the proposed road projects start asap.

PS - I am not a road-junkie, I am a huge fan of PT. Wellington in general has pretty good PT, and pretty good road. Its only really SH1 that's letting the team down.

I should clarify that I am not against the road per se, in fact, I think it would be great to have, obviously.

But if there are other transport projects (road or PT) which are deemed more urgent and giving us more return, then those should take precedent. NZTA seems to think there is.

I should clarify that I am not against the road per se, in fact, I think it would be great to have, obviously.

But if there are other transport projects (road or PT) which are deemed more urgent and giving us more return, then those should take precedent. NZTA seems to think there is.

OK. answer this. PT from Waikanae is pretty good to say the least. Not much can really be done on improving that without going extremely overboard. Maybe full double tracking for the entire way. Better ticketing systems etc?? Both can be implemented fairly cheaply, except for maybe some new tunnelling for the double tracking in Kapiti. Faster trains?

So my question to you. If you so against this road. And the money was there. Where would you like to see it spent? Give some specific examples on how it can be better spent. (And keep it to Waikanae <---> Wellington please). Because thats where the money is being spent

Harping on about it being a waist of money blah blah blah is not an argument

When comparing NZ (Wellington) to the rest of the developed world. Our PT is comparable, its pretty good actually. But look at our roads infrustructure. I'm not from NZ, but one of the first thing that stood out for me when moving here was the bad state of the roads, lack of highways, on/off ramps etc..

Wellington's per capita public transport boardings is around half of Sydney or Melbourne's. Auckland is far far below that.

Auckland has the longest length of motorways of any urban area of it's size in the world. I don't know how Wellington compares.

I don't think the number of highways or on/off ramps is an indicator of the quality of roading infrastructure. Local roads are just as important if not more important for economic growth. Our population is tiny compared to most other 'developed' nations and we simply cannot afford to spend as much money on infrastructure.


The extent/size of the Wellington railway network is great and suites wellington perfectly how it is. Roads need serious work. And the new Transmission Gully and the Kapiti Expressway will do exactly that.

You cannot build your way out of congestion. 60 years of road building has shown that. The traffic congestion in Wellington is nothing compared to what people accept in cities overseas. The same cities that have massive roading infrastructure, and now realise that investment in PT is vital to their ongoing success.

Just out of interest, what part of the world do you come from nzkiwi?

So my question to you. If you so against this road. And the money was there. Where would you like to see it spent? Give some specific examples on how it can be better spent. (And keep it to Waikanae <---> Wellington please). Because thats where the money is being spent

Thats the whole point - why must we limit our thinking to Waik-Wgtn? Transport spending in that region should be directed where it is most necessary. NZTA's analysis says that road is not it, not spending on that scale anyway. I don't think it says PT is the answer there either. It puts that whole corridor further down the list regardless of the transport mode. Surprising? Absolutely, but that's their analysis.

Its not a roads v PT debate. If the no.1 need identified by NZTA is a road from the city to the airport, so be it. I don't care its a road, just that it needs priority.

Where would I spend it? A cut and cover of the Quays so that the CBD would not be cut off from the water and that traffic could run through freely (probably unrealistic for the price and the BCR wouldn''t stack up) or a dedicated PT corridor (e.g. a busway) between the airport and the train station.

But really, I am just happy for the most urgent project to get the focus, as determined by a fair and robust analysis. For what its worth, I am surprised that the NZTA identified PT as the priority - I thought it would have been a road. So be it.

Wellington's per capita public transport boardings is around half of Sydney or Melbourne's. Auckland is far far below that.

Auckland has the longest length of motorways of any urban area of it's size in the world. I don't know how Wellington compares.

Got a link to these claims? ANd preferably not some biased story from stuff.co.nz

I don't think the number of highways or on/off ramps is an indicator of the quality of roading infrastructure. Local roads are just as important if not more important for economic growth. Our population is tiny compared to most other 'developed' nations and we simply cannot afford to spend as much money on infrastructure.

My gripe with SH1, noth of Wellington is that its not a state highway, its just a standard road, which is called SH1. So its not really a local road. We need to spend the money now, otherwise these areas will remain in the 20th century. We have put off upgrading this infrustructure for too long.

You cannot build your way out of congestion. 60 years of road building has shown that. The traffic congestion in Wellington is nothing compared to what people accept in cities overseas. The same cities that have massive roading infrastructure, and now realise that investment in PT is vital to their ongoing success.

We built our way out of congestion beween Porirua and Wellington already. Yes there is still the Ngauranga Gorge is still an issue only in peak, which will never go away. We built ourselves out of congestion at Mackays crossing, remember the railway crossing? You need roads which bypass the slow areas, they dont need to be highways, but these small towns are whats causing the congestion. Another example, the Taupo bypass. There are plenty of other examples where it has worked. So I dont see why we cant build ourselves out of congestion between waikanae and porirua wth transmission gully and the Kapiti Expressway, of course it will work. So i dont go wth that argument. In heavy congested areas where trafffic is causing the congestion it does not always work. But creating better roads which take away congestion caused by railway crossing, small towns, T junctions for traffic comming on/off will defenitly work. Examples of these places are plentiful

- Paikakariki crossing. Look at the congestion it causes just by a few cars entering/exiting. Just the other day was another fatal accident.
- Raumati and Raumato South, T crossings, cars pulling into the right fast lane at snails pace in front of cars traveling at 100km/h. I witness many near misses at these intersections and have seen the odd fatal accident too.
- Otaihanga turnoff, south of waikanae. Traffic is often backed up all the way to Paraparaumu. Not because of the amount of traffic, but because of the odd car turning into the main road.

Just out of interest, what part of the world do you come from nzkiwi?

Grew up in South Africa. Then lived in Brisbane for 5 years. South Africa probably has the best roads of the lot.

Just google it. I have seen plenty of reports on per capita transport boardings in Australasian cities. Stuff.co.nz is the last place I'd look for any reliable information on anything.

Are you advocating improving roads/building more motorways to make travel safer, or to solve congestion? Those are two different issues entirely.

Safety improvements could solve many of the problems you list without having to spend millions/billions on a new grade separated motorway somewhere else.

Have a look at Brisbane for example ...
Wellington's rail system is not that far behind ...
Then compare our roads ... they a joke.

I really thought NZ roads werent that bad at all. most road surfaces were pretty good compared to Australian roads that are mostly bumpy especially on the populated eastern state roads. as for roads in Wello the Motorways are fairly good compared to Canberra which has basically the same population but yet there arent as much motorways. i really think its SH1 that makes the roads around Wello look bad and in some ways i can see why.

Went for a walk today and decided to check out how the roadworks were doing. Found out it's really hard to take interesting photos of roadworks. Things tend to be flat or underground. Will check back in about a month and see if anything has changed.

View down Ellice St. Basin is on the left at bottom of hill
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-E-rGFr5nicY/UTrEL7nbugI/AAAAAAAABJM/BSPHSswPEUw/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309140557810.jpg

The park where the flyover supports will go. Used to be a building here.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jwdIp7tv5K4/UTrES_cXuqI/AAAAAAAABJU/nxDJeUakWpM/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309140743478.jpg

Other side look up the hill. Behind the tree in the centre is Regional Wine and Spirits. Best bottle shop in the country. Shed a tear for them.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zIVJnyROipE/UTrEjGA8MXI/AAAAAAAABJk/rAqYmbVKB88/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309141037076.jpg

View towards memorial from middle of Cambridge/Kent as it splits around basin
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--NNYyHYFWQY/UTrEaodn0zI/AAAAAAAABJc/YmVgcOsWJVI/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309141011993.jpg

the road bypassing the cut and cover work site (don't call it a tunnel)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rbFMjF4F5YM/UTq6ZXoOuLI/AAAAAAAAA_s/XG-Kp4gspLw/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309141955332.jpg

probably posts to reinforce the ground while they dig
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-itz_l41TP9o/UTq6wKAAZlI/AAAAAAAABAE/r6PZ45nTmEo/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309142327895.jpg

site info
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-urwDlSy6ObI/UTq6_Cfi2FI/AAAAAAAABAU/8_344S1mZ5A/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309142419025.jpg

war memorial is still under wraps. Not sure what the schedule is for completion of restoration
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zoqpaZXEGKM/UTq7Vjc2ozI/AAAAAAAABAs/Gs2Wx8v9j0w/s829/CameraZOOM-20130309142504872.jpg

Here is some of that brickwork they dug up
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PsypQS4CK-k/UTq7lckoBII/AAAAAAAABA8/6ZlofB68lDc/s902/CameraZOOM-20130309142706564.jpg

Nice one dude. Always keen for updates on this particular project. Long overdue.

some construction photos from today

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dpINu728Lmc/UWIGz-RWjpI/AAAAAAAABjs/bS2yCZtftLQ/s902/CameraZOOM-20130408112913533.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9NHXtwQqxrk/UWIGjt6ZtJI/AAAAAAAABjU/I4MtE1bYJ_w/s902/CameraZOOM-20130408112851076.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DWWLKJjPlfA/UWIGbWr8HNI/AAAAAAAABjI/N-kvN-dTcrE/s902/CameraZOOM-20130408112754024.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-epFPNLRraPM/UWIGRYjySCI/AAAAAAAABi8/sVdexbEftog/s902/CameraZOOM-20130408112642390.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GWhH4LGmiF4/UWIGApisSPI/AAAAAAAABik/2NsrWUY8OlU/s902/CameraZOOM-20130408112424963.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-u3Z1X8ZQCs0/UWIF4dUgP5I/AAAAAAAABiY/cRR9piT8c1o/s902/CameraZOOM-20130408112209797.jpg