As a very relevant and topical issue for this area, TENONS, The Environmental Network of North Somerset, are running a conference about the Severn Estuary and the proposition to use its tidal range to produce electricity.

The event is free and open to everyone.

We have invited high profile experts to come along to speak to us about barrages, lagoons and tidal reefs with a further expert giving us an overview.


The Blakehay Centre
Wadham Street (next to Grove Park Car Park)
Weston-super-Mare BS23 1JZ

Saturday 24 October 2009

9.45am – 12.45pm

Introduced by
Marian Barber, Head of Economy & Regeneration, North Somerset Council

With

Rupert Armstrong Evans, Evans Engineering : Tidal Reef
Professor Roger Falconer, Cardiff University : Tidal Barrage & Lagoon
Peter Kydd, Director of Planning & Environment, Parsons Brinckerhoff : Overview on Tidal Options

This is a chance to hear about the technology for the schemes and an opportunity to ask questions.

More details on www.tenons.org.uk

Only 2 days to go to this event!

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In October last year, the Blakehay Theatre in Weston-super-Mare was filled by people wanting to hear some of the nation’s experts explain a range of technologies to capture the tidal energy of the Severn Estuary. On 20th March, a second presentation is being organised by TENONS to consider the potential impact by these schemes on the environment of the estuary, on local jobs and our future.

We are delighted again to have a high profile panel of speakers offering an extensive range of research and experience. Dr Robert Kirby, an oceanographer, Dr Roger Wade from the Environment Agency, Adrian Jowitt from Natural England, John Chaplin, Director of Engineering from the Port of Bristol Company and Professor Nick Pidgeon from Cardiff University, a researcher in risk attitudes and behaviour relating to climate change and energy choices.

This is a FREE public presentation offering a unique opportunity to learn and listen, to question and challenge. The presentation on Saturday 20th March 2010 will start at 9.45am and end at 12.45pm. The venue is The Blakehay Theatre, Wadham Street (next to Grove Park Car Park) Weston-super-Mare, North Somerset.

Undoubtedly an exciting, thought provoking and educational experience and we do hope that you can find time to attend. For more details of the event visit www.tenons.org.uk or phone 01934 623000. To find out more about Severn Estuary Tidal Power and the consultation process go to www.severntidalpowerconsultation.decc.gov.uk

What happened to this plan? Did the new government quietly shelve this?

Yes it's gone Berty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/oct/18/severn-barrage-nuclear

Should this thread be archived now as the project definatly isn't going to happen???

Yes it's gone Berty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/oct/18/severn-barrage-nuclear

Wow nice link!http://mofa-1908.info/cartoons9.jpghttp://mofa-1908.info/cartoons14.jpg

Should this thread be archived now as the project definatly isn't going to happen???

"On Hold" or "Cancelled"?

Personally, I still think they should consider tidal lagoons - still plenty power to be had at a percentage of the cost, and less damage to the mudflats.

"On Hold" or "Cancelled"?

Personally, I still think they should consider tidal lagoons - still plenty power to be had at a percentage of the cost, and less damage to the mudflats.

Cancelled looks favourite. The website for Port of Bristol has a quote from a top-brass saying that now the final nail is in the coffin of the barrage, the deepwater expansion can go ahead. That obviously would be nigh impossible with a barrage, and it looks like work is already under way.

Fair enough. Do the PoB plans involve full containerisation? I thought the Bristol Channel was still too tidal and silty to be a major port?

I thought the Bristol Channel was still too tidal and silty to be a major port?

No.

Severn barrage: £30bn project examined by David Cameron's officials
Plans for a £30bn barrage across the Severn estuary have been given a boost after Prime Minister David Cameron instructed officials to look into them. (full story) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-19311254)

Severn barrage: £30bn project examined by David Cameron's officials
Plans for a £30bn barrage across the Severn estuary have been given a boost after Prime Minister David Cameron instructed officials to look into them. (full story) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-19311254)

To be honest, it would be a great power source AND solve the Severn Tunnel problem. Brucie bonus!

Whilst it would be a great energy source (something like could produce 5% of the UK total power needs on its own?) the main problems with it now are:

1) The Port of Bristol is expanding and this would seriously affect it - whilst there would be a lock-gate through it, it would still reduce the number of ship movements each day up the Bristol channel
2) Oldbury Nuclear Power Station upstream has been chosen as a location for a new nuclear power station. There would be concerns about the lagoon created by the barrage become a radioactive lake.
3) RSPB have not been a fan of this scheme and there are serious concerns about the loss of the wading bird habitats in the Bristol channel
4) Who's actually got the £30bn to pay for it to begin with?

Point 1 isn't insurmountable. Thinking 'outside to box' - if the barrage is also going to have a motorway and rail link going across it, how about having a port built along it too and giving the Port of Bristol the 'franchise' to run it?
Point 3 could be overcome with compensatory land created downstream of the barrier - although I suspect the RSPB would prefer tidal lagoons instead of the barrage.
Point 4 is just a question of money - if a private consortium think they can get the money for this, then that's it.

Point 2 is the big issue though. The only way to avoid this is to NOT build the new nuclear power station at Oldbury. If the barrage had progressed 10 years ago this wouldn't have been an issue but it's just too late now.

Bury it, it's a stupid idea. It'll both fuck up the West of England economy and it's natural environment. Whoop de doo. One thing is for certain, it'll cost far more than the £30 billion price tag that's being flaunted.

Point 1 isn't insurmountable. Thinking 'outside to box' - if the barrage is also going to have a motorway and rail link going across it, how about having a port built along it too and giving the Port of Bristol the 'franchise' to run it?

Actually, it is pretty much insurmountable. In order for such a port to be able to function, and be even remotely successful, copious portions of land would have to be reclaimed along side it, which would be incredibly expensive. Either that or they would have to transport cargo from the barrage to sites at Portbury and Avonmouth.
Either way it would make the port far more expensive to use and run, and far more inefficient and uncompetitive than it's rivals. It'll be waaaay more convenient to use the likes of Southampton and Liverpool.

Point 3 could be overcome with compensatory land created downstream of the barrier.

From past examples it's been shown that something like that really doesn't work; expecting the fauna to somehow 'relocate' from something like would be incredibly naive, to put it bluntly. The native species around the estuary are adapted for that specific area; they won't relocate, they'll die. Even if it's just several miles away.

The area affected will also be huge, covering at least a 100 miles of estuary and river bank, so you're also decreasing the areas of suitable habit significantly. Any compensatory land wouldn't be big enough in the least.

Bury it, it's a stupid idea. It'll both fuck up the West of England economy and it's natural environment. Whoop de doo. One thing is for certain, it'll cost far more than the £30 billion price tag that's being flaunted.



Actually, it is pretty much insurmountable. In order for such a port to be able to function, and be even remotely successful, copious portions of land would have to be reclaimed along side it, which would be incredibly expensive. Either that or they would have to transport cargo from the barrage to sites at Portbury and Avonmouth.
Either way it would make the port far more expensive to use and run, and far more inefficient and uncompetitive than it's rivals. It'll be waaaay more convenient to use the likes of Southampton and Liverpool.



From past examples it's been shown that something like that really doesn't work; expecting the fauna to somehow 'relocate' from something like would be incredibly naive, to put it bluntly. The native species around the estuary are adapted for that specific area; they won't relocate, they'll die. Even if it's just several miles away.

The area affected will also be huge, covering at least a 100 miles of estuary and river bank, so you're also decreasing the areas of suitable habit significantly. Any compensatory land wouldn't be big enough in the least.

I can see that from a Bristolian point of view, the barrage (should it include a road) would be seen as economically disadvantageous, as at a stroke, Cardiff would be the closest big city, airport, centre for shopping etc for most of the west country. Needless to say, I don't have a problem with that, but I recognise it would be an issue.

Regarding the ports, it would affect Cardiff Docks and Newport Docks as much
as Avonmouth, and I'm sure all 3 ports, while in competition with each other will campaign to get a suitable locking system in place. I spend a lot of time on the south Wales coast and the channel is a busy shipping lane, but no so busy that navigating a lock need cause too much of a delay surely? Maybe it adds 20-30 minutes? I don't know, but as said, I can see that Avonmouth would lose some competitive edge compared to other UK ports, but so too would Cardiff and Newport. In addition, I'm sure the long construction period could provide a boon to all 3 ports in the interim.

Regarding wildlife matters..it's something I personally choose to leave to experts. I know though that conservationists' default position is conservative (well, duuur!) and I've found them prone to hyperbole..certainly I know this was the case with the Cardiff Bay barrage. Personally, I think the enviornmental benefits of cleanly producing 5% of the UK's electricity are compelling, and while I don't dismiss the impact on wildlife, I think nature reacts to things better than we give it credit. The world has constantly changed, and only a small amount in the grand scheme of history man-made change.

As for the nuclear power station...this is either a game ender or a non-issue, as there is no way the government would mess around with that. The estuary is 'flooded' 50% of the time as it is, when the tide is in, so I don't see why it being flooded 100% of the time makes nuclear disaster more likely?

Finally, regardless of whether we live in south wales or south west england, I think this is the kind of ambitious engineering project that Britain should be considering.

Overall, I'm cautious but firmly behind the project and I'm glad it seems to be gaining some momentum.

FYI-report from the Western Mail (welsh paper) http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/08/19/david-cameron-revives-multi-billion-pound-severn-barrage-scheme-91466-31653653/

5% of clean quite reliable renewable power would be a big asset to the UK.

5% isn't a lot, not for the sheer size of the project, and by the time it's completed, other renewable energy sources will be refined.



I can see that from a Bristolian point of view, the barrage (should it include a road) would be seen as economically disadvantageous, as at a stroke, Cardiff would be the closest big city, airport, centre for shopping etc for most of the west country. Needless to say, I don't have a problem with that, but I recognise it would be an issue.


It's safe to say that of the economic issues and problems that Bristol faces from a potential barrage, Cardiff won't be one of them.
If anything, a barrage would make it even easier for people to commute out of Cardiff and into Bristol.

You're also under the assumption that the Westcountry has the same subservient relationship and high level of inequality that South-East Wales has with Cardiff, and that by building the barrage, places such as Burnham-on-sea will take on a similar connection. They won't. You also assume Cardiff will become way more closer to those living south west of the barrage, than they currently are to brizzle. It won't. A 5 minute difference, max

And Bristol's wider catchment, a/o the areas east of Bridgwater and the M5, aren't going to find themselves any closer to Cardiff over Bristol. South of Taunton, people gravitate far more towards Exeter and Plymouth; they're not going to travel to Bristol or Cardiff any more than they do already, which is rarely and for fairly specific reasons. Certainly not for regular shopping or leisure which isn't any better over in Wales. There's also the bridge toll that'll put people off.

As for the airport, I think it's safe to say that by the time any barrage is built, Cardiff won't have an airport at the current rate :D.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-19333147

But seriously, as an airport why would someone from Devon or Cornwall go to CWL when the range and costs of flights is identical but closer to home at Exeter airport or to BRS where the selection more frequent, larger and cheaper?

Regardless, any barrage project won't be completed for at least a decade, enough time for a decent mayor to prepare the city.



As for the nuclear power station...this is either a game ender or a non-issue, as there is no way the government would mess around with that. The estuary is 'flooded' 50% of the time as it is, when the tide is in, so I don't see why it being flooded 100% of the time makes nuclear disaster more likely?


I think the issue is that any nuclear 'essence' that is released with the water at Oldbury, currently gets washed out to sea fairly quickly, but with the barrage it would create a large 'stagnant' and silty pool of water which would allow a gradual build up of Oldbury's finest..

Hmm, I do find your posts a tad condescending, but leaving that aside, please do tell me how you feel the economic disadvantages of ships navigating a lock to access Avonmouth Docks (which Cardiff and Newport docks will also suffer from) is greater than the economic disadvantages of the several million people suddenly having another major city for employment, retail, leisure, culture etc closer to them than Bristol is?

I don’t get that. I can see that Avonmouth Docks will consider the barrage a pain, but (on a far lesser scale admittedly) Cardiff Bay barrage is a pain to leisure boats in the Bay, but it hasn’t stopped an enormous explosion in marinas in recent years.

I think you underestimate the importance of Bristol’s location. Located where it is, it means that pretty much all ‘traffic’ (people, goods, services, whatever) from the South West going to the midlands, London, the North, south Wales etc, passes through Bristol. Likewise, all traffic from south Wales going to London, southern or south Western England also passes through the Bristol area. The barrage, with a road, would fundamentally change this relationship.

No longer would there be much locational advantage in serving ‘Wales and the South West’ in Bristol, over Cardiff, or Newport. No longer would Bristol benefit from being the closest major airport to the south west. No longer would commuters in Somerset automatically view Bristol as the nearest jobs market. No longer would people from Devon automatically choose the touring west end show in Bristol over one in Cardiff. Personally, I think the change would be pretty fundamental. I don’t think Cardiff would become the ‘city of choice’ for the south west, but it would a damned site more than it currently is.

I was raised in Devon, much of my family are there. I know well the cultural and economic relationship between the south West and Bristol, and with south Wales. I know the benefits that Bristol has through being close to both areas, and I think the relationship would change if a road is offered between Cardiff and Weston…I struggle to see why you don’t view that as an factor.

As for the airport, it would make a difference, as Bristol airport relies on the wider catchment area (as all airport do) the barrage would at a stroke make Cardiff as close to Bristol for millions of people..I know that currently Bristol airport is far superior, but I think you are a tad naive to think it wouldn’t make a difference.

Point noted on the nuclear issue, but I’m sure it can be overcome, and besides, in scope and scale the barrage far exceeds Oldbury nuclear power station, so if anything were to budge, it would be the nuclear power station.

Aside from the fact this is happening in Severnside, do you think this is the kind of project that Britain should be at least seriously considering?

I think the issue is that any nuclear 'essence' that is released with the water at Oldbury, currently gets washed out to sea fairly quickly, but with the barrage it would create a large 'stagnant' and silty pool of water which would allow a gradual build up of Oldbury's finest..

I don't think that's an issue. Water from the primary cooling loop is not discharged. Otherwise, Trawsfynedd lake would be a bit of a problem!

Hmm, I do find your posts a tad condescending, but leaving that aside, please do tell me how you feel the economic disadvantages of ships navigating a lock to access Avonmouth Docks (which Cardiff and Newport docks will also suffer from) is greater than the economic disadvantages of the several million people suddenly having another major city for employment, retail, leisure, culture etc closer to them than Bristol is?


The new Deep Sea Container Port being built by BPC relies on quick turnaround times, like other deep sea ports. Having shipping traffic caught up in a large ship lock (which can take hours to navigate), cuts heavily into profitability.

Also, I'm not sure how you arrive at "millions" of people who would find themselves in a shorter commute to Cardiff than Bristol. Assuming the barrage was on the Steep Holm route, and carried as much traffic as the M5, then really, only people in Weston-Super-Mare and Burnham would now be closer to Cardiff.



I don’t get that. I can see that Avonmouth Docks will consider the barrage a pain, but (on a far lesser scale admittedly) Cardiff Bay barrage is a pain to leisure boats in the Bay, but it hasn’t stopped an enormous explosion in marinas in recent years.

I think you underestimate the importance of Bristol’s location. Located where it is, it means that pretty much all ‘traffic’ (people, goods, services, whatever) from the South West going to the midlands, London, the North, south Wales etc, passes through Bristol. Likewise, all traffic from south Wales going to London, southern or south Western England also passes through the Bristol area. The barrage, with a road, would fundamentally change this relationship.

No longer would there be much locational advantage in serving ‘Wales and the South West’ in Bristol, over Cardiff, or Newport. No longer would Bristol benefit from being the closest major airport to the south west. No longer would commuters in Somerset automatically view Bristol as the nearest jobs market. No longer would people from Devon automatically choose the touring west end show in Bristol over one in Cardiff. Personally, I think the change would be pretty fundamental. I don’t think Cardiff would become the ‘city of choice’ for the south west, but it would a damned site more than it currently is.

I was raised in Devon, much of my family are there. I know well the cultural and economic relationship between the south West and Bristol, and with south Wales. I know the benefits that Bristol has through being close to both areas, and I think the relationship would change if a road is offered between Cardiff and Weston…I struggle to see why you don’t view that as an factor.

As for the airport, it would make a difference, as Bristol airport relies on the wider catchment area (as all airport do) the barrage would at a stroke make Cardiff as close to Bristol for millions of people..I know that currently Bristol airport is far superior, but I think you are a tad naive to think it wouldn’t make a difference.

Point noted on the nuclear issue, but I’m sure it can be overcome, and besides, in scope and scale the barrage far exceeds Oldbury nuclear power station, so if anything were to budge, it would be the nuclear power station.

Aside from the fact this is happening in Severnside, do you think this is the kind of project that Britain should be at least seriously considering?

I get your point - Cardiff would be more accessible to those in the Westcountry beyond Weston. But also don't forget that the Westcountry would also become more accessible for South Walians.
Plus, all this assumes a decent highway would be build on the barrage.

I don't think that's an issue. Water from the primary cooling loop is not discharged. Otherwise, Trawsfynedd lake would be a bit of a problem!

I'd hope so, having Oldbury so close is slightly disconcerting.


but leaving that aside, please do tell me how you feel the economic disadvantages of ships navigating a lock to access Avonmouth Docks


This:

The new Deep Sea Container Port being built by BPC relies on quick turnaround times, like other deep sea ports. Having shipping traffic caught up in a large ship lock (which can take hours to navigate), cuts heavily into profitability.

I wouldn't blame the BPC if they started demanding billions in compensation, for losses incurred. Some sort of land reclamation should take place regardless, at least then Bristol can expand it's light industrial-commercial base.

Also, I'm not sure how you arrive at "millions" of people who would find themselves in a shorter commute to Cardiff than Bristol. Assuming the barrage was on the Steep Holm route, and carried as much traffic as the M5, then really, only people in Weston-Super-Mare and Burnham would now be closer to Cardiff.

I get your point - Cardiff would be more accessible to those in the Westcountry beyond Weston. But also don't forget that the Westcountry would also become more accessible for South Walians.
Plus, all this assumes a decent highway would be build on the barrage.


Exactly what I'm saying. I'm guessing it's case of if you think hard enough all these extra millions of people will somehow appear out of nowhere.

It should also be pointed out that a road link won't make Cardiff significantly quicker to get to than Bristol, rather they'll both take roughly the exact same time to get to. Even with the barrage, people living in the likes of Cheddar, Yeovil or Axminster are still gonna be a lot closer to Bristol than they are to Cardiff. Currently people living south west of Bridgwater venture up to Bristol pretty sporadically, so the idea that those living south-west of the barrage will start routinely visiting cardiff en-mass in the way that the valley folk have to, due to the barrage, is frankly hilarious.

That assumes any of this happens, and if it does, it's not gonna happen for at least a decade, so keep dreaming jimmy.

I'd hope so, having Oldbury so close is slightly disconcerting.



This:



I wodn't blame the BPC if they started demanding billions in compensation, for losses incurred. Some sort of land reclamation should take place regardless, at least then Bristol can expand it's light industrial-commercial base.ul



Exactly what I'm saying. I'm guessing it's case of if you think hard enough all these extra millions of people will somehow appear out of nowhere.

It should also be pointed out that a road link won't make Cardiff significantly quicker to get to than Bristol, rather they'll both take roughly the exact same time to get to. Even with the barrage, people living in the likes of Cheddar, Yeovil or Axminster are still gonna be a lot closer to Bristol than they are to Cardiff. Currently people living south west of Bridgwater venture up to Bristol pretty sporadically, so the idea that those living south-west of the barrage will start routinely visiting cardiff en-mass in the way that the valley folk have to, due to the barrage, is frankly hilarious.

That assumes any of this happens, and if it does, it's not gonna happen for at least a decade, so keep dreaming jimmy.

Delirium, can't we have an intelligent debate without the patronising and smug comments?

Is this not a fairly serious engineering project worthy of intelligent debate? Read what I wrote, I'm just talking about the proposals, try and do the same.

Firstly, I never said that Cardiff would become significantly closer than Bristol, although I should imagine that from say Junction 21 of the M5 (ie, by Weston), the centre of Cardiff would be a good 15-20 minutes closer than the centre of Bristol..but that's semantics..the point is, that for more or less everyone in Devon, Cornwall and many people in Somerset, Cardiff suddenly would be as close to them as Bristol would.

That's pretty much a fact. If you don't think that matters, then you also don't think motorways, rail electrification matter either..trust me..location, and access to markets is pretty important in economic success.

What is nowhere near a fact, and nowhere near what I said is that people in S.W.England would start visiting Cardiff en-masse..clearly not..but if it became their closest large city then quite clearly it would make a difference..You'd be a fool not to recognise that fact. And of course, the South West would become closer for South Walians..that's my point, Cardiff would operate more as the 'junction' city serving the areas that Bristol currently has a (near) monopoly on.

And yes, we don't know whether this barrage will happen, I suspect it probably won't, but SkyscraperCity would be a far less visited website if people only discussed schemes that are definately happening.

I think this scheme is an interesting one to discuss, I'm sure others do too, but it doesn't need pompous sarcasm to liven it up..just stick to the opinions.

Jimmy
xx

Firstly, I never said that Cardiff would become significantly closer than Bristol, although I should imagine that from say Junction 21 of the M5 (ie, by Weston), the centre of Cardiff would be a good 15-20 minutes closer than the centre of Bristol..but that's semantics..the point is, that for more or less everyone in Devon, Cornwall and many people in Somerset, Cardiff suddenly would be as close to them as Bristol would.

xx

Actually the time from Junction 21 to Cabot Circus is 30 minutes so I doubt that Cardiff would be more than 5 minutes closer at best. As you say it would give an option that at present doesn't exist for people coming up the M5.

On an ecological front I saw an interview with a biologist who while acknowledging that there would be an effect on wading birds, predicted an increase in biodiversity as silt settles and photosynthesis in the water increases.

I think that the economic differences of Cardiff v Bristol with and without the barrage are probably neutral. With one major exception.

The Port of Bristol wants to expand by building a deep water facility - The Corlan Hafren scheme envisages this deep water facility being built in Port Talbot (which is already deep water).

So Bristol would lose out to South Wales (although not Cardiff).

^^Indeed, though not the first time Labour screwed the West over.



Delirium, can't we have an intelligent debate without the patronising and smug comments?


It's an opinion. The fact that it's not one you happen to like and particularly agree with doesn't make it patronising or smug, sweetie. If that happens raise feelings of insecurity and sulkiness in you, then that isn't my problem :cheers:

Actually the time from Junction 21 to Cabot Circus is 30 minutes so I doubt that Cardiff would be more than 5 minutes closer at best.

Exactamundo. Any route from there to the barrage would involve having to travel south, past Bleadon Hill and then across to Brean down, or it would involve having to navigate through Weston itself. Unless the route was unrealistically straight and direct, it's unlikely you would reach Cardiff first. Traveling by rail is even more direct to Bristol, the trip from Worle to Temple Meads takes around 20 minutes along a virtual ‘straight’ line. You can't match that,

but if it became their closest large city

It wouldn’t deary, any new rail-line would be unlikely to give Cardiff any serious “advantageous position’’ over Brizzle. Realistically, any rail route would have to connect somewhere south west of Dinas Powys, so differences in rail journey times would be negligible. It’d be the similar case with a road link, so unless it corresponded along the same route with the Exeter-Bristol rail line entirely, it wouldn’t be quicker by car.

Seriously though, you’re just saying the same thing over and over like a parrot, so in turn, I’ll pretty much repeat what I ‘said’ before:

You're under the assumption that the Westcountry has the same subservient relationship and high level of inequality that South-East Wales has with Cardiff, and that by building the barrage, places such as Burnham-on-sea will take on a similar connection. They won't- there's more choice on this side of the bridge. You also assume Cardiff will become way more closer to those living south west of the barrage, than they currently are to brizzle. It won't.

The areas south of Taunton, a town itself which has a strong pull from the surrounding region, aren’t apart of the Bristol’s core catchment and the city doesn’t have a 'monopoly' on them either, given people gravitate far more towards, and are more than perfectly and conveniently served for jobs and leisure by Exeter, (which now even has a John Lewis so there’s little reason to travel up the M5 or into Wales as far as shopping goes) and Plymouth (which is just as busy and large as Cardiff is, so people can and do go there if they want that 'big' city fix. Edit: although let's face it, if someone from down SW needs to have that proper big city fix but doesn't want to travel to Brum or London, they'd still have to come to Bristol over Cardiff.

There's also the fact that they're are plenty of other places besides Bristol, to the north and east of the city, that people could and do frequent, (such as Bath, Cheltenham, Birmingham, Poole-Bournemouth, Swindon, Oxford and London) but the city still manages to pull in people from these areas enough with healthy regularity, so a barrage to the south isn't really gonna be a issue in that regard. If we're on about about 'access to markets' then quite frankly, Bristol, being much closer to the Midlands/North and the South East, along with the far superior airport, is always going to win that one.

I also doubt the large proportion of older folk in the deep south-west are particularly keen on traveling an hour and a half for a shopping trip to places such as Cardiff, where setting isn't as nice and the selection is identical to what they have closer to home. I'd rather go to Bath.




On an ecological front I saw an interview with a biologist who while acknowledging that there would be an effect on wading birds, predicted an increase in biodiversity as silt settles and photosynthesis in the water increases.


Interesting, although no offense to that biologist, in line with the RSPB and WWF, i'm not gonna make too many judgements regarding the environmental effects, not until we get a more detailed picture.

It's probably also safe to assume that any road across a privately-financed barrage is unlikely to be toll-free.

Why do we need another road across the 7, why not rail .

Rail and road are proposed for the barrage. It would be crazy not to include a road link since any barrage would provide the perfect infrastructure on which to mount it.
This is one of the main reasons why anyone would be willing to privately fund such an enormously expensive scheme; I would imagine the estimated £30 odd billion would be recouped by the sale of the electricity alone, over a decade or three, meaning the road bridge would make huge profits considering the relatively small cost of slapping the deck on top compared to building a whole bridge outright.

You do realise it's the river Severn, not seven, don't you?!?

Rail and road are proposed for the barrage. It would be crazy not to include a road link since any barrage would provide the perfect infrastructure on which to mount it.
This is one of the main reasons why anyone would be willing to privately fund such an enormously expensive scheme; I would imagine the estimated £30 odd billion would be recouped by the sale of the electricity alone, over a decade or three, meaning the road bridge would make huge profits considering the relatively small cost of slapping the deck on top compared to building a whole bridge outright.

You do realise it's the river Severn, not seven, don't you?!?

From what I've read the cost of the road/rail link would add a substantial amount to the cost, but like you suggested, it's a big opportunity aside from anything else, and with the current crossings due to pass into public ownership in a few years (with tolls due to fall dramatically, or be eliminated-so we are told!!) then I imagine any new crossing would be seen as an opportunity for toll-companies.

All very pie in the sky at the moment anyway, but just as I think the UK Government is very correct to explore the feasibility of this project as much as possible, it also has a duty to strongly consider the merits of road and rail crossings, as it would benefit the south Wales and south West economies.

I didn't realise sc & 2sc were to be handed over soon. Hasn't this supposed to have happened before though, only to have been extended?
I won't hold my breath on toll reductions, but if it did happen it would surely have an impact on how much they would be able to charge at the barrage..

At the moment I am pro-barrage. It is a view based purely on economic benefits and also the little kid in me; I remember regularly visiting the 2nd sc under construction in the 90's and was in awe of the scale of the construction. The barrage would be colossal. My concerns are for the environment, but that debate is yet to be fully understood, and won't have any real meaning until a concrete plan/design is formalised.
I don't really see the barrage being a problem for Bristol. More a benefit. The argument about it creating a bypass and lost trade and commerce from the south west doesn't really stack up imo.
Sure, there will be some disadvantages, but I think the advantages would probably balance it out at least. Far from being a hindrance to each other, I believe Cardiff and Bristol can help each other, play off each other and bringing them closer together can create a lucrative bond between them. Healthy competition is vital in anny business. The recent lack of it is probably the reason Bristol has declined into a backwater, where things don't get done, and apathy rules... Ok ok, that's a little harsh and ott - an enormous amount of change has happened in the city over the past 20 years, with masses of investment, but there is definitely a realisation that we have underachieved, and the successes have been despite the apathy. We need to kick on and fulfil our potential.
I think the barrage could stimulate the region as a whole, and as a result people would come from further afield to visit Cardiff AND Bristol. I don't believe Cardiff airport will benefit massively tbh. Even with the projected landing site at that side of the city, it is still an arse to get to, and Bristol would still be the offered option(even though it itself is geographically challenged) since it is south Bristol and there wouldn't be a bridge toll to pay.
The one area Bristol would lose out at present is in sport and leisure, with Bristol not having an arena or decent football stadia. Cardiff also hosts international cricket, and had the likes of the white water rapids. Hopefully us Bristolians will have gotten our act together in that respect by the time it is built.

I won't hold my breath on toll reductions, but if it did happen it would surely have an impact on how much they would be able to charge at the barrage.
It wouldn't be hard to imagine a similar situation to what they do currently with the severn bridges, if someone doesn't want to pay the toll; either don't cross or go via another route (Gloucester in this instance). If they don't want to pay a barrage road toll then they would have the option of travelling via the m4/m48 crossings instead.


Hopefully us Bristolians will have gotten our act together in that respect by the time it is built.

It wouldn't be hard to imagine that any mayor that fails to get the likes of the arena built, is fairly unlikely to see a second term (provided they run). So for anyone running for office, establishing larger scale facilities such as an arena or better sporting facilities during their term, is pretty much top of the agenda along with transport. If we're being realistic, the time taken to build the barrage, from the early planning stages to the 'topping out', would be lengthy; by which time we'd most likely have seen maybe up to 4 or even 5 different mayors in that period, (assuming none can hold down more than a four year term).
As much as a debacle the arena projects have been in this city, I think it's highly unlikely that we (kiss of death) wouldn't have an arena and the like, by then.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MP-hopes-fox-new-bid-Severn-Barrage/story-17401512-detail/story.html

How is it that suddenly the barrage has gone from producing 5% of the uk's power, to one-fifth (ie 20%)?

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/MP-hopes-fox-new-bid-Severn-Barrage/story-17401512-detail/story.html

How is it that suddenly the barrage has gone from producing 5% of the uk's power, to one-fifth (ie 20%)?

Typo, I'd guess.

Yeah I'd guess too, considering the general quality of this website/the Post.
Quite a significant typo though, wouldn't you say? It's the second time they've made it. If it were to generate 20%, then the government would have built the thing by now...

Ps, that your comment on the article regarding the A380 Berty? How is your campaigning going - I get the feeling it is now a lost cause, although I sincerely hope not.

Yeah I'd guess too, considering the general quality of this website/the Post.
Quite a significant typo though, wouldn't you say? It's the second time they've made it. If it were to generate 20%, then the government would have built the thing by now...

Ps, that your comment on the article regarding the A380 Berty? How is your campaigning going - I get the feeling it is now a lost cause, although I sincerely hope not.

Probably my comment if it's "Bert_Hindle"
We've ramped it up seeing as we are getting nowhere with SGC. Lot's of people in the House of Lords agreeing with us, and are putting the pressure on. Our arguments were accepted into the current HoC Transport Committee inquiry into UK aviation strategy. Other "avenues" also to be explored which I can't go into.

We fight to the bitter end....someone has to, otherwise the country would go to pot.