^ Why do you come here in this thread? And what is your solution? No rail transit? WTF? Are you insane? Talk about the usual Filipino "crab mentality". :rant:

If the gov has to subsidize it, then so be it! People pay taxes to the government, it is their obligation to provide them with decent public transportation. Metro Manila NEEDS light rail to ensure that there is speedy movement of people so their quality of life is improved a little and they can spend more time with their families instead of being stuck in perpetual traffic. The gov must do everything it can to ensure that all the MRT/LRT lines are built! :speech:

Unfortunately for Light Rail, it's very inflexible. MRT-3 although useful, was not the cure all for the traffic in EDSA.



So what is the solution? More buses? And so what if you have an economics degree? That doesn't make you right! As you can see in the pic below, the only thing moving fast and freely is the LRT!!! :tongue:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/imagesaver1206/national%20roads/edsa/a6c0eb57.jpg

^^ So what are we going to do if there was no bail out? Cut the rail network funding in metro manila in favor of the other projects such as farm to market roads and agri-financing? Isn't that being done already? Are we even incurring more losses that way since we are paying off for the principal and interests of those structures that ceased to function? Just take a look on Bataan Nuclear Power Plant. What about incurring even more losses from productivity. How about the number of employees and workers who will lose their jobs once it shut down? I think the economic implications for the country about this is far greater than we can imagine. Remember that Metro Manila is still the financial capital of the Philippines. It is already crowded, space is scarce and limited and its hard to build wider roads because building the 'right' kind of infrastructure lagged behind the metro's development thanks to the short sightedness of the past administrations. You can probably do that in Cebu now that they are developing but it will be a monumental task if it is to be done in Metro now.

Well, it had been know that graft and corruption makes up a big percentage of economic losses the country is experiencing. You can not simply jeopardize an existing and working infrastructure such as the LRT in favor of others. In addition to tax collection, should it be much better to invest money, time and effort in minimizing corruption so that the collection of taxes becomes more efficient?

And, do you know how full MRT in every rush hour time?

LONG LIVE RAIL TRANSIT!!!!!!

JCHIP, i take the train everywhere I go, here and in Chicago. Im just tourist here and the train is all i've got. I do my best to avoid being on the streets in order to avoid being killed by flying coffins and stupid drivers.

Here is another comment for JCHIP...


Why do people always ask if rail transit will pay for itself, yet they never ask the same question about our ever-expanding highways?

Nuff said :tongue:

^^ He wants the government to spend billions of pesos on expanding roadways in an overly congested Metro Manila where only few people can benefit from yet it puts a lot of tax burden to anyone who doesn't even own a car.

Here's the problem: we don't have the deep pockets of New York, London, Paris, and Tokyo. Their cities can raise debt to fund their Light Rail systems on their own. In our case, it's the national government that does that.

The per capita income or average annual income per person of those places you just mentioned is at least US$20,000. Our average income in the country is less than US$3,000. We just don't have their capability to pay.

A city or a country won't become progressive just by building infrastructure. It's even worse when we build the wrong kind of infrastructure. What we really need right now is to push projects that will benefit a large part of the population. I don't mean just the people living in Metro Manila.

Now, who gets hit in the neck when the government has to subsidize MRT-3 commuters? There are other projects that have to be cut for MRT-3 to operate. All taxpayers will feel an additional tax burder with the increase of VAT rates by the end of February.

My frustration is that programs like a real land reform program does not get proper funding while bad projects like MRT-3 continually gets funding.

Haven't you read the last two articles from the Philippine Star posted on this forum? What don't you get?

No matter how you much you complain. The reality of it is there, DOTC already admits that it can't afford to operate MRT-3. They need a bailout.

Lastimoso just wanted to emphasize his point of getting a buyout by saying MRT-3 fares need to be raised to PhP72 by average. No one in his right mind would ride it then so it would increase the chances of getting the buyout.

The bigger problem is that even befor resolving MRT-3's problems we are jumping headfirst into MRT-7 which will practically give us the same problems. It seems like we never learn.

We are spending a minimum of PhP150 million a month to subsidize MRT-3 commuters. Although I ride the MRT-3, I think it's a bad use of scarce resources. That amount of money could be spent better by providing low cost loans to farmers or improving farm productivity by building honest to goodness farm to market roads.

It's a sad state of our government's decision making that it's not the greatest good that wins out but who can lobby better or who can be useful more that gets chosen.

@JChip, I think your in the wrong forum.

Your the one who never learn. It seems that you dont know the value of time in Metro Manila. How can the Manilenos be productive if everytime they go to work or school they will always stranded on a heavy traffic. MM really needs to expand its MRT lines. Majority of the produce (in monetary terms) of the entire Philippines came from Metro Manila and it is also home to the majority or Urban population, mag-isip ka nga. Go back to Basic Economics and study The law of Supply and Demand.

Building Infrastructure increases the productivity of the people which help the economy and the country to become progressive.

I would rather see my taxes going to building MRT/LRT and any types of infrastrcuture in metro manila rather than spending it by the government to the projects for the majority of the filipino people na tamad and pessimistic who are just waiting for the government to provide for everything.

NY, London, Tokyo, and Paris did not start building their LRT and subway at US$20,000 per capita income. Kung ito ang batayan mo ang ibig mo sabihin dapat after 100 years pa tayo magpagawa ng LRT at MRT. Ang tagal naman ng 2100 baka naka-bullet train na ang Hanoi at Saigon sa panahon na yon.

Hmmm, not enough IODINE my friend

I spent slightly over 3 weeks in Metro-Manila. I travelled everyday and I used the light-rail extensively. I've ridden in all of them LRT1, LRT2 and MRT3. I must say I'm impressed with LRT2. Not just by the bigger and better looking trains but also the stations compared to MRT3. And I always felt the safest when traveling in Metro-Manila while in these trains.

Here's the problem: we don't have the deep pockets of New York, London, Paris, and Tokyo. Their cities can raise debt to fund their Light Rail systems on their own. In our case, it's the national government that does that.

The per capita income or average annual income per person of those places you just mentioned is at least US$20,000. Our average income in the country is less than US$3,000. We just don't have their capability to pay.

A city or a country won't become progressive just by building infrastructure. It's even worse when we build the wrong kind of infrastructure. What we really need right now is to push projects that will benefit a large part of the population. I don't mean just the people living in Metro Manila.

Now, who gets hit in the neck when the government has to subsidize MRT-3 commuters? There are other projects that have to be cut for MRT-3 to operate. All taxpayers will feel an additional tax burder with the increase of VAT rates by the end of February.

My frustration is that programs like a real land reform program does not get proper funding while bad projects like MRT-3 continually gets funding.

Haven't you read the last two articles from the Philippine Star posted on this forum? What don't you get?

No matter how you much you complain. The reality of it is there, DOTC already admits that it can't afford to operate MRT-3. They need a bailout.

Lastimoso just wanted to emphasize his point of getting a buyout by saying MRT-3 fares need to be raised to PhP72 by average. No one in his right mind would ride it then so it would increase the chances of getting the buyout.

The bigger problem is that even befor resolving MRT-3's problems we are jumping headfirst into MRT-7 which will practically give us the same problems. It seems like we never learn.

We are spending a minimum of PhP150 million a month to subsidize MRT-3 commuters. Although I ride the MRT-3, I think it's a bad use of scarce resources. That amount of money could be spent better by providing low cost loans to farmers or improving farm productivity by building honest to goodness farm to market roads.

It's a sad state of our government's decision making that it's not the greatest good that wins out but who can lobby better or who can be useful more that gets chosen.


I dont agree with your opinion. We cannot simply measure the effectiveness of a mass transit system based on the revenue it makes. Although MRT3 is making the govt pay a huge amount to subsidize the riders fare, it provides our economy with a lot of benefits. One of the major benefits is productivity. The hundreds of thousands of MRT3 riders has increased its productivity because of the faster travel time it takes them to go to work. Even the people who does not ride MRT3 has benefited in faster travel time because of less traffic. Metro Manila is over populated and we need to decongest it. Building MRT7 certainly would help decongest metro manila.

We need to build more lines to make residents of metro manila more productive. It will also address the lack of ridership issue. If we build more lines and inter connect them, ridership will increase on all lines.

The govt should learn from its mistake. They should not stop building mass transit because it makes them pay money. All infrastructure project has its cost. But they should be more smart in awarding those BOT so that the contracts will be fair to the govt and its tax payers and to the consortium that builds them.

^ur name is very funny

^ I have never rode on any MRT/LRT in my entire life.

Well if you get the chance Sinjin you should give it a try, unless you aren't up to it.

@ Virtute, you are very very right. I feel safest when im on the trains. When i take a taxi or have my uncle drive me around, who was a taxi driver, i feel my chances of death increase two fold.

It's off topic but another issue they need to enforce to improve traffic is making lines all over the roads and enforcing drivers to stay in their lanes. Singit ng singit really causes alot of unnecessary traffic jams. If they can enforce seatbelts I don't see why it's so hard to do that.

MRT 8 P R O P O S A L


MRT project to link Metro Manila to Rizal
Posted: 11:18 PM | Jan. 15, 2006

Doris C. Dumlao
Inquirer

printable version


(Published on Page B1 of the January 16, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer)

THE GOVERNMENT has received an unsolicited build-operate-transfer proposal for a $918.6-million mass railway transit project, tagged as the MRT Line 8, that aims to link Metro Manila with the booming province of Rizal.

Documents from the National Economic and Development Authority showed that the MRT-8 project was offered by American Transport Systems Corp. to decongest the Ortigas/Shaw corridor by cutting across Angono, Taytay and Cainta and connecting with MRT Line 2 and Line 3.

The project consists of a 16.856-kilometer elevated dual-track guideway from Sta. Mesa, Manila, to Taytay and a 3.263-km at-grade (a junction at which two or more transport routes cross at the same level) section from Taytay to Angono.

It will have provision for further extension up to Sta. Cruz, Laguna, and passenger connections to the existing rail systems in Metro Manila, specifically the Shaw Blvd. Station of MRT-3 on Edsa, and the Araneta station of LRT Line 2 along Aurora Blvd.

The project was laid on the table as early as 2004 but has yet to receive even a first-pass approval from the government's inter-agency Investment Coordination Committee. But the project had drawn support from the local government units of Rizal itself as well as the Department of Transportation and Communication.

Budget Secretary Romulo Neri, who used to head the Neda, said: "It's a good proposal. Rizal has 2,000 hectares (of idle property) it wants to develop, so it's good."

Neri said these MRT systems in the pipeline would be more viable if the proponents included some real estate development compo nent in the project.

"A lot of these MRT/LRT projects are able to recover the cost if you know how to do the real estate play. In other words, the developer also does housing, building, commercial and shopping centers." Neri said.

"Like what they're doing with MRT-7 (Edsa-Bulacan), they're sharing the profit with the government, because as you bring mass transport there, land values rise and if you're able to capture the opportunities, (the need for) government subsidy will be lower," he explained. (See related story on page B7.)

The MRT-8 East Rail project involves the procurement of 28 wide body three-car trains with a capacity of 1,005 passengers each.

Of the total project cost, 71 percent was intended to be the build-transfer component and the remaining 29 percent, the build-operate-transfer component.

Under government regulations, unsolicited BOT proposals are subject to a Swiss challenge or should be bid out to other interested investors but the original proponent has the right to improve its offer to match that of the winning bidder.

DOTC wants ICC to break $4-B MRT 7 impasse
Posted: 11:28 PM | Jan. 15, 2006
Clarissa S. Batino
Inquirer
(Published on Page B7 of the January 16, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer)

THE GOVERNMENT economic team is asking Universal LRT Corp., the proponent of the $4-billion MRT 7 rail and real estate development project, to post a performance bond of $1.9 billion, equivalent to the projected tax benefit from the 25-year venture.

The consortium-composed of offshore and local developers led by the SM Group and Israeli businessman Eli Levin-proposed to undertake the $1.23-billion Metro Rail Transit 7 project, which will run from San Jose, Bulacan, to North Edsa, and its $2.7-billion transport hub and real estate component in Bulacan.

The Cabinet-level Investment Coordination Committee is scheduled to meet tomorrow in Malaca¤ang to break the impasse on the project. President Macapagal- Arroyo is expected to chair the meeting.

Two outstanding issues have to be resolved. One is whether to allow the MRT 7 consortium to exceed the 11.9 percent rate of return ceiling that the National Economic and Development Authority had set. The other is the $1.9-billion performance bond.

The Department of Transportation and Communication wanted the ICC to allow Universal LRT to go beyond the 11.9 percent return that will arise from cost efficiency, not tariff increases, but only up to 14 percent.

The excess revenue must be shared equally by the consortium and the government and any return beyond 14 percent should accrue strictly to the government, said Transport Assistant Secretary Roberto Castanares.

The DOTC also proposed the setting of the performance bond at 10 percent of the rail and real estate construction cost, which is only $390 million. This, Castanares said, was the standard requirement in government projects.

The DOTC suggested that the the performance bond issue be among the parameters of the Swiss challenge for the project, which is required for projects arising from unsolicited proposals.

"Let us test the market such that whoever could come up with the performance bond better than the proponent's offer and closest to the $1.899 billion required by the ICC gets the project," Castanares said.

This way, he said the government could find out if its performance bond requirement was realistic.

"If the ICC would insist on its condition, then no BOT project would push through and therefore the agenda of the President insofar as decongesting Metro Manila would not be realized," said the transport official.

The MRT 7 project comes with a real estate component where the consortium is committing to construct 2,500 residential units and 300 office units each year on a 174-hectare area in Bulacan.

To improve accessibility with other modes of transport, the consortium will construct a 22-km road in Bulacan and a 20-ha bus and train depot also in Bulacan.

The SM Group owns 60 percent of MRT-7's real estate venture and 25 percent of the railway project. The Universal LRT consortium is composed of Siemens, Alstom, China Railway 18, EEI Corp. of the Yuchengcos and Merlin Capital of the Tong family.

"We suggest that with increased efficiency, good performance and a higher level of ridership within the capacity provided under our agreement, our investors be given the chance to exceed the projected rate of return," said Levin, president of Universal LRT.

Regarding MRT8, since its going to connect to LRT2 anyway and will be using wide body cars, why can't they just physically extend the tracks of LRT2 to the route of MRT8? Sort of like how I wish they would simply physically link MRT3 with LRT1 tracks in Monumento (especially since they are gonna move the Andres Bonifacio statue anyway) so the trains can be interchangable between the two lines and allow for a seamless system and have only one Monumento station. In this way, the existing LRT2, which is the best rail system that the Philippine has, won't be limited to a measely 13 to 17 km track. Just think of the cost savings with the efficiencies, not to mention the fact that passengers don't have to transfer all the time from one line to another.

hmmm... I think that if the two lines share a station.. it would be enough for me.. :D

MRT8 seems fine.. except I'm wondering where it will run and how would it connect to the Araneta station (lrt2) and Shaw (mrt3)?

Well if you get the chance Sinjin you should give it a try, unless you aren't up to it.

@ Virtute, you are very very right. I feel safest when im on the trains. When i take a taxi or have my uncle drive me around, who was a taxi driver, i feel my chances of death increase two fold.

Is there a thread where I can see pictures of all these trains and their interiors? Last time I was in Manila was in 2001 and I didn't have enough time to ride in any of the lines.

^^ I'm very sure if you backthread to all the other older threads you will see it.

LRT@ and MRT/LRT8 go in two very different areas! They only connect at MapaStation in STa. Mesa (near SM Centerpoint) rundown shaw boulevard, to Ortigas, Pasig, then Cainta, eventually going all the way to Angono and Binanonan. A Metro area unserved by mass transit relying primarily on Jeeps with some buses. These has about 3 million people. Lrt @ when extended goes to Cogeo in the Antipolo area , perhaps eventually to Tanay. Yes this is also East Manila but a very different part of town only accessed by Imelda ave and Sumulong.

Again we have a map somewhere in the threads. Several people including myself have posted it. These things change sometimes but not by much. MRT8 is actually supposed to be a very heavy use line passing through the middle of Ortigas Area and beyond. It was one of the earliest lines to be considered but it has MAJOR REALIGNMENT PROBLEMS specially as it get's near Sta. Mesa. A big chunk of the project will be purchasing right of way!

hmmm... I think that if the two lines share a station.. it would be enough for me.. :D

MRT8 seems fine.. except I'm wondering where it will run and how would it connect to the Araneta station (lrt2) and Shaw (mrt3)?

Would it be even more economical if a train station built for the present line be upgradeable for the future plan for another line?

^^However sensible your suggestion is the present geographical set up at both Mapa , where lrt8 meets lrt 2 and shaw where mrt3 meets lrt 8 are very congested and does not seem to have been built to accomodate this. I think at best the two stations will have a connection similart to mrt/lrt1 in taft/Edsa. Masyado nang makitid at punong puno ng infrastructure iyung lugar. In the case of Crossing, there's and underpass, then grade level bus , 2nd level train , overpass, with this huge station about 20 - 25 meters tall to contend with, I've no idea how they plan to get the shaw train through lalo na build a station pa!. I think the lucky people in Soho may have a station falling at their feet and connecting with them.

wow thats good. A lot of people will benefit from this project.

Update on MRT 7

Request of railway firm gets green light

THE Philippine government has approved the request of the Metro Rail Transit 7 proponent to raise the project’s rate of return previously set by the country’s socioeconomic planning agency. However, revenues from the hiked rates will be shared equally between the operator and the government, according to Roberto Castañares, transport assistant secretary.

Earlier, the National Economic and Development Authority-Investment Coordinating Committee already decided that the project’s rate of return is 11.9 to a maximum of 14 percent.

Castañares explained that the revenue-sharing will be decided by the government and it should not be more than half of the excess funds collected between 11.9 percent to 14 percent rate of return.

Earlier, the Universal LRT Corp. (ULC), the MRT 7 proponent, opposed the maximum 11.9 percent rate of return by saying that the return “is very restrictive considering the risks that the investors are required to assume.”

Investors of the MRT 7 projects includes the Sy family of SM group, Siemens Group, International Finance Corp., Yuchengco Group, George Go group, China Railway, and a number of Japanese firms.

“We have suggested that with increased efficiency, good performance, and a higher level of ridership within the capacity provided under the agreement, our investors be given a chance to exceed the 11.9 percent projected rate of return,” Eli Levin, ULC managing director and chief executive.

Levin also said investors of the MRT 7 have already agreed that any excess beyond 11.9 percent will be shared equally with the government at the end of the concession period. “Thus, we strongly advise to keep the investors incentive in the agreement,” he added.

Costing $1.2 billion, MRT 7 will have a 22-kilometer elevated track, running from Tala, Novaliches, to North Avenue corner EDSA, passing through Lagro, Fairview and Commonwealth Avenue before joining MRT Line 3 in North Avenue.

The project will serve commuters to and from the north of Metro Manila, including Novaliches, Fairview, Caloocan and Bulacan. It involves the construction of a 17-km asphalt private road at the Marilao Exit of the North Luzon Expressway that would end at an inter*modal terminal in Tala.
--Darwin G. Amojelar

^ So does this mean MRT7 is back on track? I'm too anxious to make my own interpretation... ;)

^^However sensible your suggestion is the present geographical set up at both Mapa , where lrt8 meets lrt 2 and shaw where mrt3 meets lrt 8 are very congested and does not seem to have been built to accomodate this. I think at best the two stations will have a connection similart to mrt/lrt1 in taft/Edsa. Masyado nang makitid at punong puno ng infrastructure iyung lugar. In the case of Crossing, there's and underpass, then grade level bus , 2nd level train , overpass, with this huge station about 20 - 25 meters tall to contend with, I've no idea how they plan to get the shaw train through lalo na build a station pa!. I think the lucky people in Soho may have a station falling at their feet and connecting with them.


Kaya nga eh, kung subway lang sana to, mas madali siguro.

Kaya nga eh, kung subway lang sana to, mas madali siguro.

Actually, the cost of a subway would be much, much worse.

Its nice that these new lines are being planned, but I wonder why they haven't even finished the MRT-LRT loop yet.

^^ What I mean is, mas madaling i-upgrade ang mga estasyon na magkaroon ng isa or maraming linya. True, the cost of building a subway line is expensive and complicated at this time when there there are already many houses, buildings and piping lines laid on the ground already.

[QUOTE=bustero]^^ I'm very sure if you backthread to all the other older threads you will see it.

Ahh, yes, thank you! Man, those are nice trains and terminals!

^ So does this mean MRT7 is back on track? I'm too anxious to make my own interpretation... ;)

bah, we still haven't had a swiss challenge or a review of the project, still a long way to go.

@kuyageezer The LRT 2 is the biggest and the most advanced of them all. LRT 2 couldve been MRT 3 running along the EDSA instead.

Actually, the cost of a subway would be much, much worse.

Its nice that these new lines are being planned, but I wonder why they haven't even finished the MRT-LRT loop yet.


good question. it was supposedly started sometime in 2005. Whoever runs and maintains MRT3 probably is the one who is responsible finishing it until Balintawak, though I wonder is it possible, or even faster if LRT1 was the one extended until North EDSA?:? any way works fine for everyone, as long as it's connected;)

The mass transport subsidy dilemma
BIZLINKS By Rey Gamboa
The Philippine Star 01/20/2006

Our last column on the metropolis’ light railway transit system (When will the bleeding stop, 13 January 2006), elicited a number of reactions from our readers. Here are a couple that are worth reprinting. The first is by Roy Zosa. This is what he has to say:

"I fully agree with your views in (last week’s) column.

"In a BOT scheme for transport, the developer takes the market risk. Note the Skyway and NLEX. However, there is assurance from government that rate increases to cover cost increases not covered by the agreed escalator will not be artificially restricted.

"In the case of MRT 7, they are asking government to take the market risk, and asking for a fixed rental that permits a guaranteed return. They claim that the subsidy, difference between proposed fare and required economic fare, will be covered by real income that will be generated. You are absolutely correct to question as to what happens in case the assumed income does not take place.

"For the developers, they are getting two sets of income: the guaranteed lease rate and the real estate income. If they are confident of project merits and of their market studies, they should take the market risk and free the government from the guaranteed lease rental.

"Alternatively, government should bid out the scheme on the lowest rate formula approach with the real estate income, with all bidders to take the market risk.

"If it is government policy to subsidize mass transport, then it cannot be a BOT project."
Pay the price
Arnold B. Andaya, vice president at the Philippine Cut Flower Corp., shares the following thoughts:

"I would just like to comment on your column entitled When will the bleeding stop? I for one am a firm believer in the MRTs and the LRTs as a solution to our traffic problems here in Metro Manila. I also believe that it has done its job and is continuing to do its job providing the riding public a safe and fast means of transportation around the city.

"In fairness to the private companies that have invested in these projects, I feel these are some of the very few projects that we can say is worth all the centavos that the government is paying with our hard earned money. As you mentioned in your article, at least we know that in this one instance, the taxes we pay are directly going to helping our riding public get some breathing spell in the ever-increasing cost of living and working in the city.

"In looking at how the system works, one should be able to understand why all this is happening. I have only basic knowledge but it gave a better understanding of the situation facing investors here in our country especially for transportation and toll projects.

"Company A, B and C proposes an MRT project; of course at the end, to make a profit out of the project. They negotiate for a rate of return from government which gets eventually approved. This rate of return should have only one variable factor affecting its realization: the projected volume of people riding; this is, if the fare prices have already been agreed upon when the contract was signed.

"In our system, this is not the case. Even after the project is completed, the issue of how much the proponents will be allowed to charge the riding public is still up in the air pending deliberation of the different government departments tasked to evaluate the fare. This process includes public hearings that take in consideration public sentiments on the proposed fare. We all know what happens in the end; as you mentioned in your article, rate approval becomes a grandstanding venue of whoever administration is in power.

"This is also the same picture when you deal with toll projects.

"Now, the problem is that we want these first class facilities in place including nice roads, bridges, and world class airports but we do not want to pay for it. With the situation of the MRTs and LRTs, what the investors are simply saying is that if we build this project (will government) allow us to attain the rate of return that was approved when the contract was signed.

"If the government will only allow the operators to charge the riding public the real cost of riding them, then the government will not have to subsidize the fare price. What about the riding public? If they feel that is too expensive, they still have a choice to ride the other public transportation (facilities) available.

"At the end, I still believe that these projects are doing what it was built to do, to provide the riding public a safe and fast means of transportation around the city. It may not be cheap, but (it is) safe and fast.

"Just my two cents worth."

I'm glad that someone did come out and say that people should pay for the real cost of the fare. All LRT/MRT systems would charge at least US$1.00. MRT-3 would probably charge US$1.50/passenger on the average. When the MRT-7 is built, it would probably need to charge US$2.00/passenger on the average.

if the government want to be able to control prices they should subsidise it then. but i doubt they'll release investment for this... though private investors or government money it'll all be slow :bash:

I'm glad that someone did come out and say that people should pay for the real cost of the fare. All LRT/MRT systems would charge at least US$1.00. MRT-3 would probably charge US$1.50/passenger on the average. When the MRT-7 is built, it would probably need to charge US$2.00/passenger on the average.

Nah...thats too expensive for an Asian city. Singapore MRT charges a minimum of SG$0.63/2 stations and below (thats US$0.39). The New line which is fully underground charges about SG$0.80/2 stations and below (US$0.50). And mind you guys, their MRT system is actually earning decent money to maintain the system properly. These really means that efficiency of governance and management really plays a role in running a public service that is affordable but still can churn out profits.

well that difference between Singapores and Metro Manila's is offset by the fact that ours will be built and run by a private company..due to unfortunate lack of funds/will/balls/etc.

How much is the Hong Kong MTR. I understand they are among the most profitable in theh world. All wholly private no gov't subsidies nor guarantees.

i hope the stations of MRT7 and 8 will be patterned from LRT2.. Wag sa MRT3.. Pang 3rd world talaga kc.
Sana irenovate ang stations ng MRT3 and make them something like this...
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/angeleslew/LRT2.jpg
Diba nice idea..to think it passes through the 3 major Business districts, makati, ortigas, araneta center...

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/angeleslew/makati.jpg
how about a monorail in this part of the metro? parang Sydney ang dating..

how about a monorail in this part of the metro? parang Sydney ang dating..

monorail will be good in for Fort Bonifacio Global City

monorail will be good in for Fort Bonifacio Global City
yup... from Global city to makati cbd.. That would be more or less 3 km stretch.

oh no.. lets make it makati-Global city passing through C5 and- naia3.. right? i hope we would have an airport terminal with rail station... monorail.

i hope the stations of MRT7 and 8 will be patterned from LRT2.. Wag sa MRT3.. Pang 3rd world talaga kc.
Sana irenovate ang stations ng MRT3 and make them something like this...
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/angeleslew/LRT2.jpg
Diba nice idea..to think it passes through the 3 major Business districts, makati, ortigas, araneta center...

thats katipunan right... wait... i think i see myself inside... jowk.. lol. :) :)

oo nga sana i-renovate ang mrt3 dahil NAKAKALITO XA! hindi xa pwedeng gamitin ng mga:
a. turista
b. mga bobo (tulad ko)
c. mga menor de edad
d. mga senior citizen
sa kadahilanang nakakalito talaga sya. mas nadalian pakong gamitin ung ltr1 kahit luma na. pag lrt1 kasi... nakasulat sa hagdan paakyat kung north bound ba sya o south bound. eh sa mrt 3 wala. manghuhula ka pa... (like me. i'm not so so so familiar with edsa especially when i was in high school.) i later discovered that mrt3 stations have built in footbridges (fortuantely not pink) on top of the stations... (if ever you're gonna use the footbridge, it would take you like 10 minutes to cross coz' its so so so high. lol. :) lrt2's design is world class (period.)

thats katipunan right... wait... i think i see myself inside... jowk.. lol. :) :)

oo nga sana i-renovate ang mrt3 dahil NAKAKALITO XA! hindi xa pwedeng gamitin ng mga:
a. turista
b. mga bobo (tulad ko)
c. mga menor de edad
d. mga senior citizen
sa kadahilanang nakakalito talaga sya. mas nadalian pakong gamitin ung ltr1 kahit luma na. pag lrt1 kasi... nakasulat sa hagdan paakyat kung north bound ba sya o south bound. eh sa mrt 3 wala. manghuhula ka pa... (like me. i'm not so so so familiar with edsa especially when i was in high school.) i later discovered that mrt3 stations have built in footbridges (fortuantely not pink) on top of the stations... (if ever you're gonna use the footbridge, it would take you like 10 minutes to cross coz' its so so so high. lol. :) lrt2's design is world class (period.)

kahit naman magkamali ka ng sakay sa MRT pwede ka pa rin lumipat sa kabilang direksyon basta ang bumaba ka lang sa mga istasyon na ang platform nasa gitna gaya ng buendia at boni.

hala.. no taking photos in katipunan station.... we were once been scolded and put us into shame when we tried to take some pictures for our memoirs.. haha

Nah...thats too expensive for an Asian city. Singapore MRT charges a minimum of SG$0.63/2 stations and below (thats US$0.39). The New line which is fully underground charges about SG$0.80/2 stations and below (US$0.50). And mind you guys, their MRT system is actually earning decent money to maintain the system properly. These really means that efficiency of governance and management really plays a role in running a public service that is affordable but still can churn out profits.

Sadly, those fares were not made up. Back read on the Philippine Star articles posted prior to my post. Roberto Lastimoso the GM of MRTC has stated in a Congressional hearing that fares for MRT-3 will have to be raised to an average of PhP72/person for it to break even.

It's hard to make company comparisons in this case because Sing MRT operates a multimodal transportation system while MRTC in the Philippines only operates MRT-3.

monorail? why monorail? that's for tourists, not worth it IMO if we're gonna have a line to important CBDs. unless of course the Ayalas decide they want to do it themselves good on 'em.

hey richard i hear you man MRT3 is like 6-7 years old yet you would think it's as old as LRT1. Heck even LRT1 is getting some new trains

It's hard to make company comparisons in this case because Sing MRT operates a multimodal transportation system while MRTC in the Philippines only operates MRT-3.

now THAT's something that's not feasible. If the government actually had the resources to make public transport, well, public, the screams of the jeepney drivers and the bus operators would be heard halfway across the world.

I wish it could happen, though.

monorail? why monorail? that's for tourists, not worth it IMO if we're gonna have a line to important CBDs. unless of course the Ayalas decide they want to do it themselves good on 'em.

hey richard i hear you man MRT3 is like 6-7 years old yet you would think it's as old as LRT1. Heck even LRT1 is getting some new trains

Monorails arent so bad, they are pretty good actually. They can carry quite a lot of people, depending on the setting of the system. Its not such a bad idea with in the Makati CBD to BGC, imo. But thats just it, it should only be a short system to transport people between these two business centers.

Monorails arent so bad, they are pretty good actually. They can carry quite a lot of people, depending on the setting of the system. Its not such a bad idea with in the Makati CBD to BGC, imo. But thats just it, it should only be a short system to transport people between these two business centers.

it would be better if the monorail line goes something like this:

Makati-BGC-Naia3-Makati..
then it should have an acces to mrt ayala station.

i guess it is also possible still to construct a subway system in makati bgc area.. for these places are still not very crowded.... unlike espana.. they actually made a proposal about espana-quezon ave subway in alternative to skytrain(LRT line).

I know its kinda weird but everytime i hear of a monorail, im reminded of that Simpsons episode when a travelling salesman sold a monorail to springfield. Classic simpsons. hahahahaah

it would be better if the monorail line goes something like this:

Makati-BGC-Naia3-Makati..
then it should have an acces to mrt ayala station.

I like this idea! :okay: A very convenient for those travelling business people, easy access from the airport to Metro Manila's CBDs.

I know its kinda weird but everytime i hear of a monorail, im reminded of that Simpsons episode when a travelling salesman sold a monorail to springfield. Classic simpsons. hahahahaah

dont worry, ur not the only one. it also reminds me of that episode:D

Yeah, a Makati-BGC-NAIA loop would be cool. I remember hearing that Binay wanted to build something like that like a year or so ago. But i dont think there's much of a chance of a monorail getting built as of late.

Just want to share the MRT 3 pics I took last December 2005. Too bad I forgot to bring my cam when I used the LRT2 when I went to Pureza to visit a friend.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e9/reymund_navarro/MRT%203/P1080841copy.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e9/reymund_navarro/MRT%203/P1080835copy.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e9/reymund_navarro/MRT%203/PC300629copy.jpg

Excellent pics, swatch:okay: I dunno if its because i havent been there for a while, but that area looks cleaner now.

the last pic is in QC ryt? sa may Kamuning.

the last pic is in QC ryt? sa may Kamuning.

close...somewhere new york street cubao near nepa q-mart...good guess still..

that big green roof is Nepa Q-Mart... that shot must have been taken from that blue condo on that area...

Yeah, could've been from that blue-gray condo in the area.
BTW, I think the u/c in the middle of the pic is Torre Venezia.

Taken from the V. Mapa LRT2 Station:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/ofngol/Photo_013006_001x.jpg

Napansin ko na ang daming nakaupo sa sahig lalo na dun sa kabilang side ng station na natatakpan nung paparating na tren, parang ako, nakasalampak din sa sahig nung kinuha 'yang pic. :D

Lahat ng klaseng upo makikita mo sa LRT2 Stations, merong magba-barkada na naka-indian sit na animo'y nagpipiknik, merong nakaupo sa railings (tulad ko), at merong basta-basta lang na nakasalampak sa sahig.

It only shows that LRT2 Stations are clean enough para upuan, kahit na bawal yun kasi sinisita nung ibang guards yung mga nakaupo sa sahig. Eh wala naman kasing mga benches sa halos lahat ng stations kaya wala ka ring choice kundi umupo sa sahig.

that big green roof is Nepa Q-Mart... that shot must have been taken from that blue condo on that area...

yeah...from new york mansion condominium..:)

nepa q should be renovated.... they should make it multi level para di manan masyadong eyesore .. along with other dull buildings in edsa.. edsa needs asphat overlay indeed.

nepa q should be renovated.... they should make it multi level para di manan masyadong eyesore .. along with other dull buildings in edsa.. edsa needs asphat overlay indeed.

from what I've heard from my friend living in that condo near nepa, nepa qmart will be torn down (not sure as to when) and they will convert it to a robinsons mall branch...nabili na ata yung lugar..

how about edsa? it should have an asphalt overlay... dull kc.

sayang naman. nepa qmart is already nepa qmart before the existence of Robinsons and SM Malls along EDSA. Sana i-renovate na lang nila ang wet market na yan. Landmark na yan sa history ng EDSA.

wow... nice pic of lrt.. hehe

NEPA Q Mart began began during the 1930s. But it's history began during the late 19th century.

The Chamber of Commerce of the Philippines Foundation (CCPF). traces its beginnings to the Camara de Comercio de Filipinas established by virtue of the Royal Decree of April 19, 1886 issued by the Queen Regent Maria Cristina of Spain. At the end of the Spanish regime on July 19, 1903, the Chamber of Commerce of the Philippines (CCP) was incorporated with the officers and members of the Camara de Comercio de Manila (which later became the Camara de Comercio de Filipinas) as founding members, indicating the continuity of the institutional identity. This continuity is further evidenced by the fact that the symbolical elements composing the logo and seal of CCPF are identical to those used by the Camara de Comercio de Filipinas.

The CCP was the only trade and commerce group comprising Spanish and Filipino traders. Through CCP, Domestic trade was enhanced by the " Buy Philippines! " slogan of the National Economic Protectionism Association (NEPA) in 1934. The NEPA popularized the use of native products like the Barong Tagalog for men and the Balintawak for women. It was co founded by Don Salvador Araneta (whop developed Cubao) with Philippine Commonwealth President Quezon, Quezon City Mayor Tomas Morato, and CCP members like Gonzalo Puyat, Toribio Teodoro and Ramon Fernandez started to espouse the cause of Filipino entrepreneurship to such an extent that they gave birth to the National Economic Protectionism Association (NEPA), which was established to protect Philippine industry against powerful American business interests. When the war ended, the Laurel-Langley Act was in full swing, and the phrase "Filipino First" was born in the halls of the CCP. Today the CCPF continues to be a strong advocate for Philippine trade and the Filipino Small and Medium Businessmen.

Nepa Q Mart was supposed to be the showcase of the Buy Philippine First policy.

We must do everything to preserve it.

Ayala MRT Station
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/pau_p1/DSC06891.jpg

MRT3 as it plies that stretch near Guadalupe Bridge
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/pau_p1/DSC06893.jpg

^^ Nice Pau! :okay:

How did you take the first pic? From the pedestrian crossing?

yup I took that from the pedestrian crossing on ground level of the corner of EDSA and Pasay Road.... the MRT goes underneath it to level with the tunnel...

thanks for those photos (pau)

taken from inq7.net.. it seems all the LRT/MRT constructions are facing so many delays.. again.. sigh..

World Bank loan eyed for LRT 1 extension to Cavite
Posted: 2:07 AM | Feb. 07, 2006

Clarissa S. Batino
Inquirer

THE World Bank is willing to fund as much as half of the estimated $800-million financing needed to extend Line 1 of Metro Manila's overhead Light Rail Transit (LRT) to Cavite province, Light Rail Transit Authority administrator Mel Robles said.

The multilateral creditor has expressed willingness to provide low-cost funds for the civil works component of the project, which is estimated to account for half of the project cost, he said.

"The World Bank is willing to finance portion of the project even without counterpart funding from the government," said Robles.

He said the cost of the project was expected to be below the unsolicited offer of $867 million since the project would be auctioned off.

The plan is to hold the bidding in the first half of the year.

The first phase of the LRT Line 1 extension will extend the railway up to Bacoor, the first Caviete town from Manila.

The overhead railway line may later be extended further to the towns of Imus and Dasmariñas.

LRT Line 1 carries an average of 350,000 passengers a day. With the extension, the volume is expected to increase to 400,000.

The LRTA scrapped last year an agreement with Canadian firm SNC Lavalin, which had offered to undertake the 12-kilometer extension of LRT Line 1 to Bacoor Cavite from Baclaran for $867 million.

Robles said the Light Rail Transit Authority (LRTA) must fulfill two things before it could bid out the extension project: pay Canadian company SNC Lavalin the balance of $5 million for the feasibility study and development plans the company made for the project in an unsolicited proposal, and get an endorsement of the Department of Transportation and Communication for the inclusion of the project in the government's medium-term Investment Priorities Plan.

Inclusion in the medium-term plan would guarantee a budget allocation from the national government, which would ensure that creditors would get paid.

The Department of Budget and Management has yet to release the $5 million (roughly P260 million) requested by the LRTA for full payment of the feasibility study and development plan SNC Lavalin made.

The Canadian firm said it spent $20 million for the feasibility study and development plans. The amount due the company has been reduced to $10 million, of which $5 million has been paid.

Robles said International Finance Corp., the World Bank's investment arm and a consultant for the project, believed the unsolicited offer of SNC Lavalin was too high.

SNC Lavalin also sought a government guarantee, which made its offer even more disadvantageous to the government, Robles said.

The government received the unsolicited offer from SNC Lavalin more than five years ago but the project could not proceed because of doubts on the economic viability of the project. With INQ7.net

Robles said International Finance Corp., the World Bank's investment arm and a consultant for the project, believed the unsolicited offer of SNC Lavalin was too high.

SNC Lavalin also sought a government guarantee, which made its offer even more disadvantageous to the government, Robles said.

The government received the unsolicited offer from SNC Lavalin more than five years ago but the project could not proceed because of doubts on the economic viability of the project. With INQ7.net

Well what did you expect? Ever since they got the RAV Line PPP contract in Vancouver that is so disadvantageous to the Greater Vancouver taxpayers, they think they can do the same thing for Manila. Thank goodness the LRTA people were a lot smarter than the proponents of the RAV Line at its current form. At least Manila is spared the financial suffering and grief that will bestow upon the residents of the GVRD once the RAV Line is up and running. ;)

I ride LRT1 everyday and I noticed that they are going to construct something in every stations, I don't know if it will be an escalator or an elevator.

^^ yeah ive seen that when i used the LRT last sunday.. also, i saw in the MRT edsa station that they moved back the turnstiles to make more room when the people are lining up to buy tickets and going in/out the stations.. finally somebody with brains and common sense thought of this idea.. i hope that they move back the turnstiles in the shaw and buendia stations as well..

Well what did you expect? Ever since they got the RAV Line PPP contract in Vancouver that is so disadvantageous to the Greater Vancouver taxpayers, they think they can do the same thing for Manila. Thank goodness the LRTA people were a lot smarter than the proponents of the RAV Line at its current form. At least Manila is spared the financial suffering and grief that will bestow upon the residents of the GVRD once the RAV Line is up and running. ;)

:lol: I'm not suffering...since the RAV will be great use to me:D

^ Well easy for you to say! You just rent and do not pay property taxes... ;)

Well what did you expect? Ever since they got the RAV Line PPP contract in Vancouver that is so disadvantageous to the Greater Vancouver taxpayers, they think they can do the same thing for Manila. Thank goodness the LRTA people were a lot smarter than the proponents of the RAV Line at its current form. At least Manila is spared the financial suffering and grief that will bestow upon the residents of the GVRD once the RAV Line is up and running. ;)

Finally met someone who shares the same sentiments on rail projects. It's a good thing that LRTA got IFC as their consultants. IFC people are quite good because they are the deparment of the World Bank focusing on private sector loans. $800 million is just too expensive for a 12-km extension.

By comparison, it will cost $200 million to extend MRT-3 to LRT-1, a 5-km distance. On a per kilometer basis, the MRT-3 extension costs $40 million/km while the LRT-1 extension will cost $66.67 million/km. RAV will charge 66.67% more than the MRT-3 extension.

^ First and foremost, I DO NOT share your anti-rail sentiments!

The RAV Line in Vancouver is an example how NOT to build a rail line and fortunately, the LRTA is a lot smarter. The only reason why its ridiculously expensive is because creme de la creme refuses to see a train high above their homes and would only find tunneling acceptable. This is just plain stupid given the sparse population of the line, thus the inevitable lack of ridership to support it, but because they are powerful politically and are well connected to the Transport Minister, who is frankly worse than Hitler, they blackmailed the Greater Vancouver Transit Authority, Translink, into submission. This despite that one of the conditions for SNC Lavalin participating in the PPP is a "government guarantee" on the ridership performance, similar to what they tried to impose to the Philippine government. So now, SNC Lavalin is going to build the line but will have a guaranteed profit, paid for by GVRD taxpayers, for the next 35 years. :no:

Of course, if the creme de la creme wasn't so powerful and didn't get their way, everything would be fine since the project would have been way more cost effective as an elevated system. And Filipino forumers should relate since Vancouver's creme de la creme is similar to the East Greenhills Association, that wealthy NIMBY group that has prevented Skycity from getting built all these years. Such people must be dragged out of the streets and be shot! :rant:

taken from philstar.com..

Gov’t to bid out $800-M LRT extension project to Cavite
By Sandy Araneta
The Philippine Star 02/08/2006

The Philippine government is planning to bid out the $800-million LRT Line 1 extension to Cavite within the first half of the year, Light Rail Transit Authority (LRTA) Administrator Melquiades Robles said the other day.

In an interview at the LRTA office in Pasay, Robles said the LRTA must fulfill two things before it can bid out the LRT Line 1 extension project.

First, it must pay the original proponent, SNC Lavalin, $5 million for the feasibility study and development plans for the project.

Second, the project must be endorsed by the transportation department for inclusion in the medium-term priority investment plan.

The first phase of the LRTA Line 1 extension project will extend the railway to Bacoor town in Cavite. Projected number of riders is 400,000 passengers per day.

The LRT Line 1 extension may later be extended to Imus town and eventually to Dasmariñas town.

LRT Line 1 carries an average of 350,000 passengers a day.

Robles said the extension would make LRT Line 1 the most viable among the mass railway projects.

He said the World Bank is willing to provide funding for the civil works component of the project, which is usually half of the estimated cost.

The LRTA scrapped last year an agreement with Canadian firm SNC Lavalin, which had offered to undertake the 12-kilometer extension of LRT Line 1 to Bacoor from Baclaran for $867 million.

Robles said the budget department has not yet released the $5 million (about P260 million) that the LRTA has requested. The Canadian firm said it spent $20 million for the study and plans for the rail extension.

Calm down, Wally;)

At least they are going to bid the project out. Hopefully this will wont cause too much delay and some Japanese firm gets it:D

^ First and foremost, I DO NOT share your anti-rail sentiments! I find such a statement very insulting given your previous track record and if I was mod, I'd ban you for it. :mad2:

The RAV Line in Vancouver is an example how NOT to build a rail line and fortunately, the LRTA is a lot smarter. The only reason why its ridiculously expensive is because creme de la creme refuses to see a train high above their homes and would only find tunneling acceptable. This is just plain stupid given the sparse population of the line, thus the inevitable lack of ridership to support it, but because they are powerful politically and are well connected to the Transport Minister, who is frankly worse than Hitler, they blackmailed the Greater Vancouver Transit Authority, Translink, into submission. This despite that one of the conditions for SNC Lavalin participating in the PPP is a "government guarantee" on the ridership performance, similar to what they tried to impose to the Philippine government. So now, SNC Lavalin is going to build the line but will have a guaranteed profit, paid for by GVRD taxpayers, for the next 35 years. :no:

Of course, if the creme de la creme wasn't so powerful and didn't get their way, everything would be fine since the project would have been way more cost effective as an elevated system. And Filipino forumers should relate since Vancouver's creme de la creme is similar to the East Greenhills Association, that wealthy NIMBY group that has prevented Skycity from getting built all these years. Such people must be dragged out of the streets and be shot! :rant:

Actually it's not only SNC Lavalin that has such a sweet deal with the gov't. Fact of the matter is, MRT 3 has guaranteed revenues.

Before you react with such vehemence, I hope you read the papers on the sites I posted. Those were fairly dry academic papers with very little emotion on them. I hope that you have worked on rail projects as well to be so emotional. ;)

The Philippine experience with light rail so far has been a financially excruciating experience. The LRTA has been on government subsidy on and off for as long as it has been in existence.

MRT-3 is such a bad deal for all parties right now. The government has to subsidize it at the tune of at least PhP3 billion a year because the MRT-3 can't make enough revenue to pay for its costs. I guess the only one happy with the set up right now is the consumer who pays a very low fare. Consumers pay only 17% of the real cost of fare right now.

The Philippines is not a rich country. Pouring the country's resources on light rail projects (at least 3% of annual budget of PhP1 trillion for MRT-3 alone) that will benefit only 1% (800,000 passengers/day) of the population seems to be a waste of scarce resources. Right now, I think MRT-3's capacity is only 400,000 passengers/day. The fare is really too low at an average of only PhP12.50/passenger. The fare setting process turns out to be a political circus every time there are hearings for fare increases.

I'm not really anti-rail but I'm pragmatic. I want my tax money used in the most efficient way. BTW, I want to see the extension of MRT-3/LRT-1 to Monumento before any other light rail project.

Moving forward, it would do Philippine taxpayers well to demand more accountability from the DOTC and the rail operators.

A re-eximination of the current BOT Law is also needed. We have to set a fair and good framework that allows private sector participation in infrastructure and gives the government a good chance of getting itself a fair deal.

The Philippines is not a rich country. Pouring the country's resources on light rail projects (at least 3% of annual budget of PhP1 trillion for MRT-3 alone) that will benefit only 1% (800,000 passengers/day) of the population seems to be a waste of scarce resources. Right now, I think MRT-3's capacity is only 400,000 passengers/day. The fare is really too low at an average of only PhP12.50/passenger. The fare setting process turns out to be a political circus every time there are hearings for fare increases.

I'm not really anti-rail but I'm pragmatic. I want my tax money used in the most efficient way.


So what do you suggest? Hold off on the MRT/LRT projects until the Philippines somehow wins some international lottery to pay for it? You should see the MRT/LRT projects as an INVESTMENT, not a burden! If people in the economic heart of the nation are able to move freely and efficiently, it would benefit the entire country!!! :|

Your way of thinking is too similar to that demon of urban planners that is Wendell Cox!!! You know...the jackass that says it costs less to just lease a luxury car for every light rail rider in a proposed line. Well, the whole point of having MRT/LRT lines is to get people OUT OF CARS AND INTO TRANSIT since cars are an inefficient way of moving large numbers of people while trains are quite efficient. GAH!!! :mad2:

Ugh! Just looking at your original post again and just the mere suggestion of me having the same sentiments as you makes me sick!!! :puke:

yeah, it's an investment... the more infra, the more alluring for foreign investors.. i cant imagine metro manila having only LRT1..

Jchip i know you don't expect me to believe what you believe but sometimes i just don't know where you're getting your ideas about Public rail transit. I hope they all get built, ALL OF THEM.

I think that one of the big reasons, but it's hidden behind the MRT/LRT fanfare is that if it's a new line, it will be big news, big infrastructure therefore it will be in the CV of that government, local or the Malacanang.

wow.. things are really heating up in here..

In order to have economic growth it is necessary to spend on big ticket infrastructure projects like the MRT system. Its a big way to increase productivity in the work force, attract much needed foreign investment and theoretically, government spending will shift the country's aggregate demand to produce much needed growth (sorry if im applying too much economics, but this is basic stuff). This is all for the long run and will put the country in a much better position for global competitiveness than if we think short run. Besides, the media presents our large deficit as a horrible end of the world thing, but its really not that bad. Yes, it does need to be fixed but it wont destroy the country. The govt still needs to spend good tax money for these projects.

Besides, i havent heard anyone complain that MRT is making commute much worse. Lots of people use it and the bottom line is it works. Just imagine the standstill MM would suffer if there was no MRT system. And it will only get better if more lines are built right? We have nothing to lose.

"In order to have economic growth it is necessary to spend on big ticket infrastructure projects like the MRT system. Its a big way to increase productivity in the work force,"

I think this is a little bit vague. Could you amplify this more fully. In what way is it going to increase productivity? Increasing productivity is a result of people becoming more creative. I think this big ticket project will only increase the employment of people, not their productivity. Now if you are referring to the effect of the finished project, i.e. MRT, people will be able to move much more quickly, hence they will be able to do more out of their remaining time that they used to spend inside a slow moving bus.

@Jchip

Just imagine if the traffic in the Metro's crawls at a turtle pace given into account the rising costs of oil in the world market. I don't think it will be any less costly to the economy than holding the plans for a railway network expansions. Many cities around the world are moving away from the roads and into the trains- it seems that youre the exception.

J chips' post are not as absurd as it seems. The actual point is where do you get more benefit from mass railway or perhaps some other project. One may not agree with how this may be calculated but there is some sense in weighing which projects should be allocated whatever meager cash the treasury has. In a sense it's quite the classic argument as to whether you should spend on urban metromanila, where the benefits of savings in pollution, traffic, time, etc should outweigh the benefits of increased efficiency in farm to market travel, time, communication, increased services...it underpins the whole imperial manila vs. spending in the province , so let's federalize debate. Both are beneficial so it's a question of where you get more bang for the buck. Jchip believes that farm to market roads are a better way to spend this money, and I'm very sure in a rational manner this can be proven. The same way that urbanists here would argue for mass rail. THis is exactly what government does, in NEDA, in Cabinet meetings, in DBM etc. In a perfect world all this would not be a problem, of course it's not. One key issue that seems to tip this particular debate in favor of the mass rail projects in Manila is the HOW these line items are financed. Be it BOT or JICA loan there is a direct cash inflow , no matter how small and subsidized, that foreign lenders (and they are all financed internationaly) can depend on. The benefits of a comparable hundreds if not thousands of roads, ports, bridges in the hinterland are more opaque, hence harder to raise money for. So even if it actually works out that the Philippines is actually better off spending this money on farm to market roads , Omar Cruz (Head of GOP Treasury) would probably have a harder time juggling the cash around for these projects.

"In order to have economic growth it is necessary to spend on big ticket infrastructure projects like the MRT system. Its a big way to increase productivity in the work force,"

I think this is a little bit vague. Could you amplify this more fully. In what way is it going to increase productivity? Increasing productivity is a result of people becoming more creative. I think this big ticket project will only increase the employment of people, not their productivity. Now if you are referring to the effect of the finished project, i.e. MRT, people will be able to move much more quickly, hence they will be able to do more out of their remaining time that they used to spend inside a slow moving bus.

It will increase productivity because if people are stuck in traffic jams, they wont get a lot of things done. Also, they will be tired and wont be willing to work as hard if they are stuck in traffic with no MRT.

Yeah. It's better to focus on efficient mass transport system.
I think it's about time we stop depending on oil that much.

Jchip believes that farm to market roads are a better way to spend this money, and I'm very sure in a rational manner this can be proven.

You see, that's the thing. Investment on roads vs rail is an absolute case. Rail is simply better than roads and it applies to both movement of people and goods. Rail is more efficient, can carry way more people and goods, and would be cheaper in the long run. No amount of rationalizing will change that fact!!! Take this as an example.

One tractor and semi-trailer require an engine and pull at most two trailers. But one trainset can require one or two locomotives and pull miles upon miles of train cars. Its the same deal with people moving. A bus can only carry x amount of people, having one engine and one driver per unit. A rail vehicle will also require one engine and one driver but can simply carry WAY MORE PEOPLE as you can link as many train cars as you can.

The rationale for roads is a 1950s concept when automobile ownership was being explored at the first time and sprawl was still a good urban planning concept. But now that we had time to see the effects of the automobile and sprawl, and compare the success of European cities with extensive rail networks vs North American cities with extensive highways, one can see which is absolutely better.

Metro Manila is one of the densest metropolis in the world. It already has HUGE roadways, viaducts, bus lanes, private bus lines, jitneys, etc. NONE of them has been able to solve the traffic congestion that is plaguing Manila. But the people who are lucky enough to be in the path of the LRT/MRT Lines are fortunate that they do have a much more effective choice in their movement. So despite the obvious success of MRT/LRT Lines both in Manila and around the world as oppose to LA style highways and car culture, people like JChip still has the audacity to lobby for road money? C'mon!!! Its high time we cut the crap and do the right thing! Rebuilt our transportation infrastructure where the rail is king!

Wally , I don't think rail is superior to road in every instance. It would be impractical for example to build a railroad to thousands of barangays , specially in the mountainous terrain. In high density environments you are probably right, but there's a reason why rail projects have not taken off in mindanao for example. In every economic projection they've run, it's shown to uneconomical at this point, even on the main route. Factor in the substantial last mile feeder roads or lack of it and you touch even less people lives and less increase in productivity.

Personally since I live in the city I would prefer to have 10 to 20 mass transit lines covering Greater Metro Manila but the 10 to 20 billion $ it would probably need to do this would crowd out other needed infrstructure investments where the other 60% of the population live , hence one would need to balance this. What that tipping point and balance is , is where people obviously diverge.

Train versus road debate is been going around for years, I'm not an expert and take no sides in either one but do know there's a balance for these and am just saying that I understand that the main point is where does the government get the most bang for the buck considering they don't have too much budget for infrastructure.

^ But we are not talking about Mindanao or barangays. We are talking about the economic heart of the nation that is Metro Manila. JChip advocates for more road expansions in the metropolis instead of spending the necessary funds to build the much needed MRT/LRT lines. So do you agree that rail brings in more bang for your buck in the economic heart of the nation, and therefore, the entire nation as a whole instead of building more roads?

But note that even in rural and sparsely populated areas, if the development is made in such a way that they are pedestrian oriented towns and neighbourhoods all linked by rail, it would work better than buses, jitneys and single occupancy vehicles. The key of making rail successful is land use planning and if you get that right, rail can easily beat roads. But no matter how much roads you build, as population growth continues, those roads will become useless and congested. And if there is one thing constant in the urban planning universe, you can't build your way out of congestion.

I agree with you Wally. We're not talking about rail lines going thru each Barangay and remote places. We're just talking about Metro Manila here. Major railways need to connect CBDs and areas of dense population in Metro Manila to funnel people from point A to point B more efficiently.

Have any of you tried riding the MRT/LRT?????? I have been riding LRT1 all week and every single time i've used it and i used it at different times of the day, the trains have been PACKED. i mean packed like sardines. Eliminate these rails and Chaos shall ensue in MM.

I'm rewriting my comment here.. kasi naabutan ako ng maintenance kahapon...

anyways... let us remember that Metro Manila is the main gateway of the 7107 islands of the Philippines to the world... it is and should be our showcase region to the world... currently Metro Manila is very much congested and highly polluted... workers get stucked in traffic for hours and hours whether they live within the metro or beyond the metro and works in any city of NCR or vice versa... hours that should have been spent for rest, leisure, and family time.... I actually have friends who live in QC and works in Laguna and I have officemates who live in Laguna, Cavite and Bulacan who works here in Makati...

With the arrival of the MRT's the commute was cut into half... and the trains being electric didn't contribute to the worsening air pollution of the metro.... and since it runs on its own rails, it doesn't add to the stress of our currently dilapidated EDSA, Taft, Magsaysay, Aurora, and Rizal Avenues...

And eventhough the allocated money for these rails are for a small percentage of soil of the whole country, remember also that Metro Manila contributes a certain percentage to our taxes and economy that I think would make it deserving to have these kinds of projects...

Alam ko na kung bakit ayaw ni JChip sa MRT.

Napanood ko kahapon sa Untv (local station dito sa Manila). Ang guest sa show nila yong LRTA Administrator. Sabi nya lugi daw talaga ang LRT Line 1 and Line 2. Wala daw talagang kumikitang MRT sa buong mundo maski sa Japan. Ang magandang solution daw dito ay i-subsidized ng local governments (lahat ng mga city na dinadaanan ng LRT ang dapat mamahala sa LRT, they will take the ownership para di na kailang magbayad ng real property tax) or by means of privatization. Sa 100% daw na utang ng LRTA sa Belgium at iba pang creditors 60% nito ay galing sa Line 2. Mali daw ang policy ng government sa pagpapagawa ng LRT Line 2 noong mga nakaraang administration. Mas maganda daw kung yung Line 2 ay sa commonwealth ave. kung saan mas marami ang commuters kumpara sa ngayong Line 2 na papuntang Santolan na umaabot lang ng 150,000 per day lang, (ang line1 is 400,000 per day minimum. Yong tungkol sa Line 1 extension naman daw ay kailangan pag aralan maiigi kasi baka maging mababa din ang passenger usage gaya sa Line 2. Ang utang ng LRTA pala ay umabot na sa 49 Billion Pesos (accumulated since 2000, kasi ang pagbabayad sa loan ay nag-umpisa daw noong year 2000), at meron din silang utang na umabot na sa 1.5 Billion pesos o mas higit pa (utang sa mga local government na dinadaanan ng LRT para sa Real Property Tax). Ngayon, ang income ng LRTA ay umaabot sa 1.9 Billion pesos/year at ang expenses ay umaabot naman sa 1.9 Billion pesos per year din. Sa madaling salita walang kita ang LRTA. Sila daw ay sumisingil ng 15 pesos per ride lamang samantalang ang kailangan nilang singilin para makabayad sa utang ay 65pesos per person. Masyadong mababa daw ang singil nila, sa madaling salita heavy subsidized daw ng National Government ang LRTA. Kung heavy subsidized ng National Gov't ang LRTA ibig sabihin ang nagbabayad nito ay ang mga tax payers sa buong pilipinas. Isipin nyo nga naman kung ano ang mararamdaman ng mga taga-labas ng metro manila na hindi gumagamit ng LRT 1 and 2, kaya ang mungkahi nya ay ang mag subsized nito ay ang mga local governments na dinadaanan ng LRT at hindi ang National Governments. Sa Japan daw, hindi National Gov't ng Japan ang nagpapatakbo sa operasyon ng Shinkansen at iba pang metro system, ang may-ari daw ng mga ito ay ang mga prefecture at ciudad na dinadaanan ng mga tren.

Ang LRTA (line 1 and line 2) sa kasalukuyan ay semi-privatized dahil ang maintenance ay ibinigay nila sa private sector. Pero ang pagbili ng mga spare parts, employee salary, operation, etc. ay ginagastusan pa rin ng national government at ito nga ay umaabot sa 1.9 billion pesos kada taon. Kaya daw nababaon sa utang ang LRTA ay dahil sa ang budget ng LRTA ay annual ang release. Hindi tulad sa pag na-privatized yan, mabubudget ang gastos sa LRTA. Halimbawa kailangan ng spare parts pwede syang bumili ng spare parts na good for 5 years na samantalang pag sa governement hindi yon pwede kasi ang budget is good for one year only at hintayin mo yong budget sa susunod na taon. Kung ang halaga ng turnilyo ngayon ay 30centavos lang maaari ka ng bumili ng maramihan na magagamit mo sa loob ng ilang taon kung ito ay privatized kasi private sector ang gagastos at meron silang budget, samantala pag governement owned yan bibili ka ng turnilyo para sa taon na ito lamang dahil ang budget ay nakalaan lamang para sa panggastos para sa isang taon lamang (next year malamang mataas na ang presyo ng isang spare parts kumpara ngayon pero di sila makabili ng maramihan kasi nga limited ang budget).

Hindi natin pwede ipatigil ang operasyon ng LRT at hindi din pwede na hindi natin i-expand ito kasi kailangan natin sa M.M. ng moderno, ligtas at mabilis na pamamaraan ng transportasyon ng mga tao. Ang kailangan lang natin ay :
1. Ipa-subsidized sa mga local govt's na dinadaanan ng LRTA, yong mga local resident ang bigyan ng 15 pesos per ticket at sa mga hindi local resident ng mga ciudad na dinaana ay taasan ang singil.

2. Privatization ng buong LRTA.

3. Policy. Pag-aralan ng husto kung saan mas maganda ilagay ang mga susunod na LRT Lines.

Addition:
Ang income daw ng LRTA sa advertisement at rental space ay 2% lamang ng kabuuang kita kumpara sa ibang bansa (Japan in particular) na umaabot sa 60% ng kabuuang kita.

Lilinawin ko lang yong sinabi ko na walang MRT system ang kumikita sa buong mundo. Ang ibig daw sabihin nito ay Walang MRT/LRT system na pinatatakbo ng National Gov't sa buong mundo ang kumikita kaya kung mapapansin daw ninyo halos kahat ay pinapatakbo ng private sectors or subsidized ng mga local governments.

^^ The point here is, the railway networks in the metropolis shouldn't be stop. It is the lifeblood of the metropolis. You have to spend in order to generate revenues for the country. In other words, no pain no gain. If they have to increase the fare, why not? Basta wag lang sa punto na parang papatayin na nila ang mga tao na hindi ito magamit at magkakandarapa sa trapik ang mga tao.

oo nga lugi ang lrt 2... pero i use it everyday... and i dont know kung paano ako pupunta sa school kung wala to.

eto ha... ung sa santolan to recto punong puno pag umaga pero walang kalaman laman pag gabi.
ung recto to santolan punong puno pag gabi. walang kalaman laman pag umaga.

hindi katulad ng line 1 and 3, active umaga at gabi. majority kasi ng ridership ng line 2 ay mga students (ceu, feu, pup, san beda, ue, st paul, baste, ust, uerm, and a lot more) at karamihan sa mga ito ay nakatira sa east (pasig, marikina, antipolo, cainta, tay-tay, at marami pa) kaya imagine pag tinanggal mo to. saan babagsak ang mga studyante na to.?

i cant imagine myself riding a jeepney to school everyday. baka 10am wala pako sa school trapik pa naman lagi sa aurora blvd. kaya kahit nalulugi xa... madami parin ang nagbebenifit dito. kahit ung mga employee ng lrt.

I prefer our LRT/MRT over subway. At least you get to have a view while riding the overhead trains. Subway, all you see is wall.
I have seen the subway in Boston, one of the most extensive in the USA and it is disgustingly dirty, old and dark.

I prefer our LRT/MRT over subway. At least you get to have a view while riding the overhead trains. Subway, all you see is wall.
I have seen the subway in Boston, one of the most extensive in the USA and it is disgustingly dirty, old and dark.yah.. i remember the first tym na nakasakay ako sa lrt... todo sight seeing. para akong sanggol. :)

onga, i think the LRT-2 really caters to the students..

yah.. i remember the first tym na nakasakay ako sa lrt... todo sight seeing. para akong sanggol. :)

Whenever I come home for a visit, I would rather ride the LRT/MRT than drive the car my relatives would offer me to drive.

dami kasing schools na nadadaanan... ung mga immediate na nadadaanan nitong schools...
we can include ateneo miriam and up... coz they're in katipunan... a ride away from the station
wcc
stela maris
st paul
ccp
uerm
pup
earist
de ocampo
sta catalina
arellano
san beda
la consolacion
ceu
holy spirit
sta rita
national teachers college
san sebastian
ue
feu
ust
phil col of criminology

and also services students from schools that can be passed by line 1 & 3 because line 2 connects to both... schools like, st joseph, trinity, don bosco, jru, rtu, mapua, plm, lyceum, letran, pnu, tup, adamson, sta isabel, chiang kai shek, pcu, pwu, upm, st scho, csb, dlsu...

students from all these schools (who live in the east side of manila, who do not rent or board near their schools) use line 2. imagine how line 2 opened up new posibilities of learning to the students of the east.

Whenever I come home for a visit, I would rather ride the LRT/MRT than drive the car my relatives would offer me to drive.

nakapag-sight seeing ka na, hindi ka pa napagod. oh diba? hehehe. :)

kaso d ko trip mag sight seeing sa line 1... ung bandang monumento south bound... pero pag nakalagpas na ng d jose. okie na ang sight. :) hehehe... although i love looking at the chinese cemetery, weird ko?

nakapag-sight seeing ka na, hindi ka pa napagod. oh diba? hehehe. :)

kaso d ko trip mag sight seeing sa line 1... ung bandang monumento south bound... pero pag nakalagpas na ng d jose. okie na ang sight. :) hehehe... although i love looking at the chinese cemetery, weird ko?

hindi ka nag-iisa. gusto ko rin yong view na chinese cemetery. it's so peaceful ;) iba ang feeling.

More roads isn't going to help as much as mass rail will. Maybe road maintenance.. that's a different thing altogether. I don't necessary believe the LRT lines are in the red because well.. they're LRT lines. It could involve the BOT contract, the contractor and the operator. MRT3 was probably made for a lot more than it looks right now. By reading bits and pieces of ncbmandy's comment I'm sorta near the point. Maybe someone can translate that for those who can't speak tagalog well. It explains why the LRT lines are going "lugi"

All the lines are running red because the fares are too cheap.

Hong Kong MRT is not only in the black but very profitable.

The economics of rail based urban mass transit are simple to compute on a direct basis. cost of line is ussually US$50 million to 200million per Kilometer. These are dedicated as in there is no conflict with other vehicles. Subways can run up to US$1billion per kilometer. At 25,000 pax/hour or 500,000 pax a day the current average of 12 pesos is Php 6million a day, multiply by 360 days or around 2billion Php a year. MRT 3 has a guarantee from the government that it would clear a certain amount ( I can't remember what it is but it surely is not us$40 million a year), Most probably 100 or 200 million $ a year. The disparity is not because of ridership issues as in line 3 but the price which the government controls.

As pointed out by the lrta administrator, the current set up of independent towns means that they look out for traffic only for their area and hence a metro system which covers many towns is not covered by their budgets. In most other places it's the city not the national government which does this.

They really need to raise the fares for the LRT/MRT... heck, it's so damn cheap, they could double the fares. And if less people ride the trains because of the fare increase, I'm all for it. Last time I rode the LRT-1 my face was squished up against the door for the entire ride. Sweaty, smelly bodies all around me. I couldn't hold on to any handlebars or anything... nor did I need to, since the bodies were packed into the train so tightly that there isn't even enough space to fall down if there was a sudden start or stop.

yeah.. I'd agree that raising the fares is a good idea.. but not too much... not because it would hurt my wallet in riding it but the higher the fare the lesser ridership it will have...

a P10 raise is good I think... and yeah.. I think it is best that the local governments should subsidize these lines... because it does increase their own city's economic progress.... eh yun lang.. pa-epal din kasi minsan ang national government ehh....hehehe...

with that.. I hope federalization takes effect soon...

They really need to raise the fares for the LRT/MRT... heck, it's so damn cheap, they could double the fares. And if less people ride the trains because of the fare increase, I'm all for it. Last time I rode the LRT-1 my face was squished up against the door for the entire ride. Sweaty, smelly bodies all around me. I couldn't hold on to any handlebars or anything... nor did I need to, since the bodies were packed into the train so tightly that there isn't even enough space to fall down if there was a sudden start or stop.

that's what i hate when riding in mrt/lrt... grabe ang dami ng tao!!! pero no choice kung nagmamadali ka...

just joined the forum. i happen to be involved in the transport sector, would like to share that the alignments for mrt4 and mrt7 were a bit confused, not surprisingly, because the two line are bound to have overlapping sections.

mrt4 will start at old bilibid, will go straight via quezon avenue up to quezon memorial circle then commonwealth avenue, not via north avenue.

mrt7 on the other hand will start at north avenue, will meet mrt4 somewhere in philcoa (after quezon memorial circle), from there they will have a common alignment all the way up to novaliches, something like 13 kilometers overlap!!

:cheers

welcome here mt101!!! :)

what's your job in the transport sector??? my brother is a cost engineer of LRT/MRT. he's currently working at D Jose station...

welcome mt101... nice to read that clarification... do you have any news whether MRT4 is still a go?

Where exactly is Old Bilibid?

diba hindi na 2loi ang line 4 dahil sa overlap at dahil narin sa ordinance ng manila na pinagbabawal ang pagtatayo ng karagdagang mga tren. (unless subway).. chaka na approve na ung line 7 diba? kaya babush na sa line 4. sayang. mas gusto ko pa naman line 4.

and @diesel... old bilibid is at the manila city jail. tapos connected na xa sa recto station ng line2.

Well, where is "The Manila City Jail "? That doesn't happen to be in the Manila City hall area is it???

probably (well, if the project would push through) the old bilibid station would be right smack in front of feu. (their buliding in quezon blvd. (the admin bldg yata.))

if i'm not mistaken the station would be located lerma corner quezon blvd. (well, if not. lagpas pa nun. dun mismo sa mga skwater. para mai-connect nila sa recto station.

kung saang area lang naman ang tinatanong mo... its in quiapo (or sta. cruz.) not sure. basta malapit sa FEU.

old bilibid is that squatter area that you can see while taking the elevated walkway from doroteo jose lrt-1 station to recto lrt-2 station. if you look past the squatters hard enough you can see the old prison cells and turrets that the squatters have now turned into homes. but i thought that lot was already bought out by a private developer (either robinsons or SM, i'm not sure which na). Anyway, it's a big lot so maybe there's space left over for a terminal, ala-North Edsa

^^ i know pinapaalis na nila ang mga yun eh...

anyone knows why aurora boulevard is a strip of schools?

^ I dunno but even by getting the students out of cars and school buses (including those in AUVs) and into trains could make a significant different in reducing traffic congestion. The typical Filipino family with kids pretty much have their children dropped off and picked up at schools by their drivers while their parents are off to work in seperate vehicles. Most of those kids don't live near the schools, especially when they go to prestigious schools like Ateneo or La Salle. So much of the bad traffic that happens in "University Belts" come from such practice. Now that the LRT2 is there, plus the MRT3 and LRT1, students can easily take trains to and from school, making a huge impact in traffic reduction.

MRT2 is filled with students during rush hour. Which is an indicator that the mass transit system works well and is very convenient for students. For sure since the opening of line 2, many cars, AUVs, etc are out of the roads.

MRT2 is filled with students during rush hour. Which is an indicator that the mass transit system works well and is very convenient for students..

yah... malulula ka sa green and pink sa lrt2 (if you know what i mean.)

yah... malulula ka sa green and pink sa lrt2 (if you know what i mean.)

uniforms?

uniforms?

yah... lots of em. as in. pinaka dominant.

yah... lots of em. as in. pinaka dominant.

ano ano yong mga skul na yon at yong kulay ng uniforms nila? di kasi ako napapagawi sa bandang U-belt.

green???? feu???

Gov't earmarks P2B for MRT-3 subsidy this year
Posted: 2:00 AM | Feb. 16, 2006

Michelle V. Remo
Inquirer

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THE national government is earmarking for subsidy of Metro Manila's overhead Metro Rail Transit 3 (MRT-3) about P2.19 billion of the total additional revenue from the expanded value-added tax (VAT) this year, data from the Department of Budget and Management show.

The amount will be used to cover the difference between the cost of operating the MRT and the revenue generated by MRT operator Metro Rail Transit Corp. (MRTC).

Income from operations falls short of the system's funding requirement because of MRTC's inability to raise fares. MRTC, Owned largely by the Fil-Estate property development group, says this resulted in losses of P2.04 billion annually.

MRTC earlier said MRT-3's minimum fare should be P72 to break even. The minimum fare is P10.

The company added that while the monthly obligations of MRT-3 reached P300 million, its monthly income was only about P130 million. The government subsidizes the difference.

Data budget department show that out of the expected P75 billion in additional revenues from VAT, P22.53 billion will be allocated for enhancing basic services and infrastructure. The data also show that about 10 percent of the P22.53 billion will be used to subsidize MRT-3.

The bulk of the VAT revenues will be used to cut the budget deficit.

The VAT has been expanded in coverage to include oil and electricity, among other sectors. It has also increased in rate from 10 percent to 12 percent starting Feb. 1.

MRTC has been seeking an increase in its rates to levels that would allow it to reduce its financial bleeding. Malacañang, has yet to act on the request.

Because of the company's heavy losses, a government buy-out has been proposed, but some government officials say that would only increase the financial burden of the government.

The government aims to wipe out its budget deficit by 2008.

You know guys there is a better solution to improve transportation and efficiency rather than building a new line. I think its better to lay down tram networks (similar to San Francisco) on the Central Business districts (since most of them are not that large) of Manila and link them to the LRT's and MRT's. The latter will provide the backbone for transporting hundreds of thousands or even milions of people to work while the trams will provide an efficient and economical ways of transporting them as it branches out in the city. It makes more economical sense that way.

^^ thats a good idea especially on roads where there are so many jeeps... it could reduce polution and traffic. i think this one is better in manila... (?)

sorry but i think i have the wrong idea about a 'tram'. what does it look like.? and will it look good in a cbd? (aaaaaa. i'm so dumb. :( )

^ Here you go....:cool:

http://www.tramvia.org/galeria/050405-trambaix/DSCN5628.jpg

http://www.tramvia.org/galeria/050405-trambaix/DSCN5645.jpg

lol that's quite a... generous photo of the trams. For one Makati CBD does not have much space. Pity Manila's tramvia lines were phase out of existence, jeepneys would've killed it if it had gone past WWII. I don't think they'd be much different from busses in Makati, Ortigas and BGC, and in other future CBDs. But the idea is great. And also they should rid Ayala avenue of that railing in the middle of the street. Drivers should know better than to swerve.


Perhaps in utopia. :D

where is that picture taken?

^^ i think thats barcelona :D

Parang malines na maayos na roxas boulevard by baywalk. Kailan kaya magiging ganyan ang roxas boulevard. ganda sana.

ahhh. thanx for the pix... un din ung naisip ko... pero ung open...
but that one's better. i bet thats a lot cheaper to make than an ordinary lrt or mrt.

They could still put a tram in BGC...there's enough space:D Actually, in fact the original First Pacific plans of BGC does include trams but i'm guessing the Ayalas killed it.

oo nga noh... those trams would look good in roxas blvd. :) kaso panira ng sunset. :( it would also look good in qc...(dunno exactly where tho)

Ganda ng trams!

trams are nice but if you want a quicker more cost effective and realistic solution, then just look at electric powered buses.

What happened to the new LRT Trains? Anyone knows when they'll be transported here?

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/press_release_051212_OsakaInspection.htm

Osaka Inspection Tour
Ref.: Nixon Bermudez

Tel. No.: +63 (2) 854-0452

December 12, 2005

ADMINISTRATOR MEL ROBLES, Engineer Evangeline Razon, DBM Undersecretary Luis Liwanag, II, Rolling Stock Consultant Porfirio Nabos and Project Manager for the Manila Tren Consortium Mazayuki Hasegawa recently went on an inspection tour in Osaka, Japan.

The group went to the Kinki Sharyo factory to inspect the full scale mock up of the rolling stocks intended for the Line 1 capacity expansion project. They inspected the looks, safety and functionality of the features to be incorporated into the final production version of the trains.

Nothing escaped the keen eyes of the inspection team. They saw to it that the trains must be strong and sturdy enough to accommodate passengers. That, there should be no sharp edges or burrs that may cause injury to passengers, operators, and maintenance crews. Even the train operators’ seat must be ergonomically and anatomically designed to reduce fatigue and strain. And, the looks must also be aesthetically pleasing.

Fire extinguishers are also placed on strategic locations inside the train for easy access in case of emergency. Even the rubber matting inside the passenger cabin was checked to see to it that standing passengers do not lose footing while travelling. Passengers with disability, even those on wheelchairs can safely be accommodated.

Judging from the overall report, the train passed most of the inspection and scrutiny of the inspection team.

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/051212_OsakaInspection_i01.jpg

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/051212_OsakaInspection_i02.jpg

-----------------

I was able to ride the LRT-1 recently and I noticed that the old coaches are so "laspag" already. You can hear parts of it shaking. Parang makakalas yung train, nakakatakot, tapos sobrang rough and bumpy yung ride. At least aircon naman siya kahit sobrang luma na. I was actually waiting for the new trains but after letting two of the old trains pass, I took the third train which is also the old one. I checked-out the LRTA website and found out that the ratio of the old to the new trains was 3:1. Dapat pala hinintay ko na lang ung fourth train para mas okay yung ride.

Aren't there three phases of trains? The old old one from the Macros era, the medium-aged one who had a/c installed to it when it was put in operation, and this one which will come with the extensions. Am I right with that?

^^ Yeah, but i think th eMarcos era trains already have a/c installed.

imo, the trains pictured above are rather generic, noting special. But at least they are new:)

those tram pics are really nice.. problem is.. pag dito nilagay yan.. tatayuan lang nang squatters yang gilid nyan..

trams are nice but if you want a quicker more cost effective and realistic solution, then just look at electric powered buses.

NO FREAKING WAY!!!! :bleep:

Electric powered buses are not a good subsititute for trams or any rail based system! And they are ridiculously slow and expensive for the amount of service that you get (you might as well stick with brand new diesels). If you want to build a system that will require overhead electric wires and so on, do it right the first time by building a tramway using steel wheeled vehicles! And as an added bonus, your streetscape will be extremely beautiful as a direct result. :yes:

the only problem I can think of with trams is that MM is prone to flooding, and I'm curious as to what a tram would look like crossing floodwater :D

^^ Trams should only be used around CBD's. It is feasible because Most Metro Manila's offices are within the CBD's and are closer with each other compared to Jakarta or Bankok. The CBD's are smaller in size as well. The LRT's or MRT's could provide the backbone between residentials and the place for work, or shopping.

^^ I agree with you all the way:okay: I dont think it ever floods in BGC, Ortigas or Ayala Center (i know it floods in many parts of makati...and even parts of the CBD like Pasay Road).

NO FREAKING WAY!!!! :bleep:

Electric powered buses are not a good subsititute for trams or any rail based system! And they are ridiculously slow and expensive for the amount of service that you get (you might as well stick with brand new diesels). If you want to build a system that will require overhead electric wires and so on, do it right the first time by building a tramway using steel wheeled vehicles! And as an added bonus, your streetscape will be extremely beautiful as a direct result. :yes:

on-grade tramways sharing the roads with everyone else isn't going to cut it much. environmentally it has its pros but in real use people won't find it much different than the bus or the jeepney on the street. This is of course talking about Manila not some utopia we all dream of.

Looks like overhead medium-rail is the way to go. However, I just can't bear to think of more MRT3s in main thoroughfares

^^This is the practical reason why no dense metropolis is putting in a new tram system.

China on the other hand is electrifying their bus systems purely for environmental reasons , this is for medium density lines, where it's not economical to put in rail.

For heavy lines you'll need a dedicated line whether at grade, above or below as long as it does not share the pathway with other vehicles or pedestians whcih will limit it's speed. Otherwise you can't get you're 400,000 to 500,000 pax per 18 hour day.

a very efficient tram system is badly needed to decongest traffic in ortigas and makati CBD especially. not everybody has a car and it is difficult to hail cabs during the peak or late hours. Jeeps and FX operators and drivers can be moody. Especially when they stage a strike. everything gets paralyzed.

it would be more pleasant to walk (or take trams), some underground, some on land and some over it, between locations in makati, fort bonifacio and ortigas.

the underground walkways along ayala should be made the starting point of a subway or other contraption.. heheh

Guys, I'm just talking about putting the short trip trams to get around the CBD's not the whole of Metro Manila if cost is consideration since they only cover smaller areas. MM still needed a heavy duty rail transport for long distances.

actually it would be nice if the developers of the CBDs would be the ones whom should finance a monorail line or a tram line in their developed area to alleviate vehicular and pedestrian traffic.. with this... government burden will be lessened...

actually.. it would be nice for Ayala if they build a monorail line that will route the whole MCBD from Buendia to Salcedo Vill to Legaspi Vill to Ayala and to BGC via McKinley... hehehe... :D

a monorail or a light rail along Ayala and Makati avenue would be great but in the wall of skyscrapers and buildings it would be hard to find a stop for even a small monorail.. Maybe one in the old stock exchange parking lot, then going to RCBC it's mostly wall skyscrapers, unless of course they take the right into Herrera then put a stop behind LKG Multinational Bancorp and GT.

But outsourcing these transportation needs always is the way to go for private investors.

well.. that line shouldn't traverse Ayala... it should only cross it maybe from Legaspi Village to Salcedo Village.. hehehe... well.. I hope the Ayalas would envision something like that.. hehehe.. :D

We badly need one along Katipunan (and Commonwealth!).

^Oh yeah we need them so much, but we can only dream.

Guys, I'm just talking about putting the short trip trams to get around the CBD's not the whole of Metro Manila if cost is consideration since they only cover smaller areas. MM still needed a heavy duty rail transport for long distances.

Yeah, i know what you meant and i agreed with you. A monorail or tram line within Makati and BGC would definitely be a good idea. Makes it so that you dont need jeepneys or taxis to take up space on the busy CBD roads for people travelling the short distance.

But for overall transportation in the Metro, more MRT lines are needed, which is what the govt is doing, albeit quite slowly.

a monorail or a light rail along Ayala and Makati avenue would be great but in the wall of skyscrapers and buildings it would be hard to find a stop for even a small monorail.. Maybe one in the old stock exchange parking lot, then going to RCBC it's mostly wall skyscrapers, unless of course they take the right into Herrera then put a stop behind LKG Multinational Bancorp and GT.

But outsourcing these transportation needs always is the way to go for private investors.

This is all in my imagination but they can be creative and make the stations on the lower floors of some of the buildings themselves! That would look pretty cool...Japanese-city style.:D

but that might be a little bit awkward, since Ayala Ave wont feel as open.

i saw a news feature last night and it said that the proponents of the MRT-7 are still considering building the thing.. it showed several short videos on what the MRT-7 stations might look like.. it had connections to bus terminals and everything.. hope it pushes thru..

I don't think they ever lost interest. The Process takes a long time lang and they want to get their way with the defacto guarantee, it seems that they were already able to kill Line 4. I'm sure they will find a way to steamroller this (whether to the greater good or not) so it pushes through.

I would love the idea of more mass urban type transport (specially for the very dense areas)but don't think an at grade tram will work anywhere right now, this is not better than a bus but costs 10 times more. At the very least you can consider above grade , more like peoplemover systems what have you. The stops can be designed. The key consideration though is feasiblity. The demand is there but the nexus of what it costs (millions of dollars per kilometer) and what people are willing to pay and what the government will let them charge is another thing. Of course antoher problem is I also highly doubt Macea or Ortigas center association will allow these things to rumble past near buildings on the 2nd /3rd floor. They wouldn't want Ayala ave, for example , to be even have an overpass and prefered to build an underpass at 5 times the cost just to keep the aesthetics. So you have economics and environment as the key stumbling blocks.

This is an interesting development. MRT line will not be extended but they'll create a new miniline to connect mrt3, mrt 7, lrt1 and extend lrt1 to the north. NOw everyone has to get off at North edsa and balintawak to change trains. Isn't this so much fun for al the people in the north!



Vol. XIX, No. 152
Thursday, February 23, 2006 | MANILA, PHILIPPINES

The Economy

BY KERLYN G. BAUTISTA, Reporter
$300-M line planned to connect Metro Manila’s four railways

The government will build a $300-million, 6.8-km railway that will interconnect four existing railways in Manila and the planned $1.3-billion Metro Rail Transit 7 (MRT-7), a ranking official of the Transportation department told BusinessWorld.

The EDSA North Transit (ENT) will run from North Avenue in EDSA to Caloocan City, and will have seven stations spread across North Avenue, Roosevelt, Balintawak, and Monumento, assistant secretary Roberto R. Castañares said in an interview.

ENT will link at North Avenue with Metro Rail Transit 3 (MRT-3) that runs from North Avenue to Pasay City, and MRT-7 that will run from Bulacan to North Avenue.

It will also link at Monumento with Light Rail Transit 1 (LRT-1) that runs from Pasay City to Monumento. LRT-1 will be extended by putting up two more stations under the ENT project.

ENT will also link at Caloocan with the Southrail line that is being rehabilitated by the government to transport commuters and goods from Alabang to Caloocan. It will link with Northrail line that runs from Caloocan and eventually to Clark, Pampanga, the site of the next international airport in the country.

"The end goal [sic] really was to close the gaps of railways to provide commuters in Manila and those coming from north of Luzon a fast transportation system with low fares. We need to connect Clark to Pasay [Manila] because the two cities house the premier airports of the government," Mr. Castañares said.

ENT should have been the MRT-3 Extension, an idea of the government conceptualized in 2000 to seamlessly extend the existing MRT-3 line to Monumento.

Mr. Castañares, however, said that the government has abandoned the idea of a seamless connection with MRT-3 to parry possible property claims from MRT-3 private operator Metro Rail Transit Corp. (MRTC) of the Sobrepeña-led consortium.

ENT will instead be connected to MRT-3 through a platform.

He noted that ENT will be detached from MRT-3 to save the government from payment of track access, as well as fees for wear and tear of tracks, once ENT trains pass through the right of way of MRT-3.

Government has been settling outstanding issues with MRTC since 2000. It wants MRTC to refund the state of $7.38 million for unfinished maintenance works for MRT-3. It also claims that MRTC owes the state at least P334 million in unpaid dues for the development of commercial spaces in the 13-station MRT-3 since 2002.

He added that ENT will not be technically compatible with the "old, dilapidated, obsolete systems."

ENT will operate high-capacity trains that can accommodate over 400,000 passengers daily and will last over 40 years. MRT-3, on the other hand, have low-capacity trains that accommodate less than 300,000 passengers daily and is not expected to last until 2020.

About 300,000 commuters are expected to take ENT in its first year of operations since it will pass through crowded areas in Monumento and Northern Intermodal Terminal Complex, where all buses from north of Manila terminate their routes.

MRT-3, on the other hand, has now registered 400,000 daily ridership only after six years of operations.

Moreover, ENT trains will be designed to become fireproof since a part of the railway will go underground at Samson Road, Caloocan, where roads are narrow and are occupied by Northrail tracks.

The communication and signaling system of ENT and MRT-3 are also not compatible, owing to the difference in the capacity of the two lines.

"It is a very viable project. This early, we have received interests from proponents because there will be no complications with inter-connections with MRT-3. All the other railways where ENT will be connected is owned and operated by government," Mr. Castañares said.

"A group of Japanese and Taiwanese investors have expressed serious interest in the project. There is also a consortium of European investors that wants to meet with the department to discuss how they can possibly take part in the project," he added.

ENT will essentially "close the loop" of railway systems in Manila, a project pushed by President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo since 2004. Transportation Sec. Leandro R. Mendoza will present to the President the details of the ENT project next month.

The Transportation department will finish the technical study on ENT by next week.

Preliminary data show the project might be funded either through private equity under a build-operate-transfer (BOT) agreement, overseas development assistance (ODA) fund, or a mix of the two. BOT scheme, however, is the preferred means of funding, preliminary data on ENT study show.

The government has fully allocated its ODA from the Asian Development Bank and the Japan Bank for International Cooperation for 2006 to 2007. Thus, possible inclusion of ENT in ODA commitments will be pushed to 2008 and bidding to second half of 2008 or early 2009.

If ENT is funded through BOT, however, the project will be forwarded to the National Economic and Development Authority for approval of the Investment Coordination Committee by May. Bidding for the project may happen in second half of 2006 and railway construction by 2007.

Operation of ENT is expected to start in 2009, a year before the end of the term of President Arroyo.

That's interesting. So ENT will be a separate "short line" connecting North EDSA to LRT 1 in Monumento? And they say the operation of ENT will start in 2009, while construction starts by 2007...does anyone else think this is quite a tight schedule to keep?

If they can BOT it that fast, then finishing 6km should be pretty quick. If it's not a BOT , then it will surely take longer.

hmmm.. should we keep our hopes up? it seems everytime we do something comes along to delay essential projects and dampen our hopes.. but in the end, i hope that they are able to follow that tight schedule..

OH MY GOD!!! This has got to be the worse thing that could ever happen to the MRT/LRT system in Metro Manila. A 6 km seperate system just to link MRT3, LRT1 and LRT7? WTF????? Talk about inefficiency! So that train will have a separate maintenance depot and its own independent set of tracks? Are they on crack? The MRT 3 extension will cost only $200 million, which is peanuts in the greater scheme of things. And it would double up the ridership and allow for a seamless system. GOD!!!! No wonder the Philippine progresses so little! I have totally lost faith in the potential of Metro Manila's mass transit system. It sucks big time and unless I somehow have the billions of dollars to undo the damage soon (i.e. extend MRT3 to LRT1, linking them physically, continue to extend LRT 1 to Tagaytay and extend LRT2 to Antipolo and Divisoria) , it will suck on forever! UGH!!!! :mad:

haha, Way to go wally, you show them! THis is the right way to rant.

He's pretty much on the ball too:)

baaaah. I think I've made enough positive comments :) we'll see the product and admire it when it is finished :yes: of course providing it's the quality of LRT2.

uhmm... I'm wondering why not instead connect ENT with MRT 7? since it will terminate on SM North EDSA and MRT4 will not ply on North Ave. Also MRT7 will be owned by the state... and I believe MRT7 North EDSA station will connect to MRT3 too right? (possibly throught North Triangle Mall)...

for short lengthen MRT7 instead to reach Caloocan... because if not, that corner of EDSA and North Ave will be filled with big stations that will block most of the cityscape

That's some nice ranting, Wally, keep it up! :)

i thought MRT 7 will be in commonwealth ave??

There were already two options to close the loop from MRT-3 to LRT-1:

1. Extend MRT-3 to Monumento - This option is a non-starter given the problems between the government and MRTC.

2. Extend LRT-1 from Monumento to SM City North EDSA - This is a more realistic option given IFC's endorsement of this plan.

Asec. Castanares seems to have conveniently forgotten option 2. IMO, option 2 is better than ENT and option 1 because of the involvement of IFC which can provide cheap loans and equity to the project.

The only reason why DOTC would want ENT and therefore another line is the government's unwillingness to fund the Line 1 extension.

i thought MRT 7 will be in commonwealth ave??

yup.. it will run mostly on commonwealth ave but will terminate at North Avenue.. most probably near SM City North EDSA mall at the corner of EDSA.... the last station would probably be connected to the North Triangle Mall of the Ayalas that is being constructed now to interconnect with MRT3 on EDSA...

The only reason why DOTC would want ENT and therefore another line is the government's unwillingness to fund the Line 1 extension.

hm.. does the government unwillingness extend to also the Line 1 extension to Bacoor and parts of Cavite?

aaaaah. the spiderwebs in the MRTC/MRT government

Is is just me or isn't it that the MRT-3 extension project has become Manila's version of Bangkok's Taksin Skytrain extension? :bash: :runaway:

edsa is already dark as it is.

hm.. does the government unwillingness extend to also the Line 1 extension to Bacoor and parts of Cavite?

aaaaah. the spiderwebs in the MRTC/MRT government

The unsolicited proposal of Line 1 to Cavite was rejected by LRTA. It was too expensive. The proponent is even billing the government $50 million (around PhP2.5 billion) for the studies. I think that's too much. They're practically billing the government for all their costs in the years they were pushing the project. I think they'll even make money if the LRTA agrees to it.

I get the feeling that practically every unsolicited BOT project being proposed right now is a rip off. It's scary because these projects will impact our taxes (increase the VAT and income taxes -- as if these items don't take enough from our present paychecks) in the future. My view is that the BOT law should encourage projects that do not need any government guarantees and therefore should have no impact on the government's finances.

^^ totot... bot projects should not have gov't guarantees

^^ totot... bot projects should not have gov't guarantees

I wish that were true. Under the present BOT Law (RA 7718), solicited BOT projects can get gov't guarantees. In fact, MRT-3 has gov't guarantees on the project's debt and the proponent's returns. The language in MRT-3's contract is quite funny in that respect. Short of the end of the world, the gov't will guarantee the proponent's returns. War, revolution, and expropriation should not affect their returns.

^^I know it's in the law. In general though I think most of these projects can easily cover itself with some creative development, thus not requiring guarantees. Of course the gov't should also guarantee that they will NOT INTERFERE with the pricing structure upon which project assumptions rest.

I know this may not be an appropriate question but.....

what happened to MRT 4,5 and 6.

We only have MRT-3 then the rest are LRT-1 and LRT-2 and the two new ones: MRT 7 and MRT 8.

What the hell happened to 1,2,4,5 and 6?

I see clearly JChip's argument. It's a BOT project, one built by the private enterprise, I don't see why the government should pour any money on this in construction. The government must be bleeding due to MRT3, they have to subsidise with lines 1 2 and 3 do they?

blackraven. LRT1 and LRT2 is basically MRT1 and 2. It's just run by a different company that is why. So we have Lines 1 2 3 but we skipped a couple of ones for some reason which i don't know

^^ Yup, and technically "LRT2" is not light rail. It is definitely heavy so it deserves to be called MRT2, its just that LRTA runs it. LRT 1 is also pretty much heavy rail.

Almost a million passengers a day for MRT-7
By Rhodina Villanueva
The Philippine Star 02/26/2006

The proposed Mass Rail Transit-Line 7 (MRT-7) by a private consortium would significantly ease traffic in Metro Manila given its maximum capacity of almost a million passengers per day.

Eli Levin, a founding member and initiator of Universal LRT Corp. Ltd., said MRT-7 is designed to move 300,000 passengers for the initial phase and eventually take in around 850,000.

Universal LRT Corp. Ltd. was formed in January 2001 to develop MRT-7, Manila’s largest multi-purpose transportation project.

"We face the problem of traffic each day. The existing mass transits, Line 1 covering 15 kilometers; Line 2 covering 13.8 kilometers; and Line 3, covering 16.8 kilometers, are moving only a total of 800,000 passengers per day," Levin said in a recent forum in Makati City.

He cited the metropolis’ inadequate roads as one of the problems contributing to the city’s congested travel routes.

"It will also be impossible to expand these existing roads because of expensive right-of-ways," Levin said. "To date, we have 4,800 kilometers of road, but most are developed into subdivision areas."

He warned that by year 2010, which is their target year for the line transit to become operational, Metro Manila’s present population of more than 10 million including that of Cavite, Laguna and Batangas, will double.

"With rapid population and the corresponding increase of vehicles, EDSA will become one huge parking lot by year 2015," Levin said.

The MRT-7 project is a 23-kilometer rail system starting from North Avenue-EDSA and will run underground upon reaching the Quezon Memorial Circle area then shift to an elevated portion in Commonwealth Avenue going to Fairview, Quirino Highway, all the way to San Jose del Monte in Bulacan.

Levin said construction of the project will commence in the second quarter of 2007 and actual operation will begin by the fourth quarter of 2010.

Project cost has been placed at $1.23 billion.

Almost a million passengers a day for MRT-7
By Rhodina Villanueva
The Philippine Star 02/26/2006

The proposed Mass Rail Transit-Line 7 (MRT-7) by a private consortium would significantly ease traffic in Metro Manila given its maximum capacity of almost a million passengers per day.

Eli Levin, a founding member and initiator of Universal LRT Corp. Ltd., said MRT-7 is designed to move 300,000 passengers for the initial phase and eventually take in around 850,000.

Universal LRT Corp. Ltd. was formed in January 2001 to develop MRT-7, Manila’s largest multi-purpose transportation project.

"We face the problem of traffic each day. The existing mass transits, Line 1 covering 15 kilometers; Line 2 covering 13.8 kilometers; and Line 3, covering 16.8 kilometers, are moving only a total of 800,000 passengers per day," Levin said in a recent forum in Makati City.

He cited the metropolis’ inadequate roads as one of the problems contributing to the city’s congested travel routes.

"It will also be impossible to expand these existing roads because of expensive right-of-ways," Levin said. "To date, we have 4,800 kilometers of road, but most are developed into subdivision areas."

He warned that by year 2010, which is their target year for the line transit to become operational, Metro Manila’s present population of more than 10 million including that of Cavite, Laguna and Batangas, will double.

"With rapid population and the corresponding increase of vehicles, EDSA will become one huge parking lot by year 2015," Levin said.

The MRT-7 project is a 23-kilometer rail system starting from North Avenue-EDSA and will run underground upon reaching the Quezon Memorial Circle area then shift to an elevated portion in Commonwealth Avenue going to Fairview, Quirino Highway, all the way to San Jose del Monte in Bulacan.

Levin said construction of the project will commence in the second quarter of 2007 and actual operation will begin by the fourth quarter of 2010.

Project cost has been placed at $1.23 billion.

ows? 2010? cge nga levin. :)

That's quite a long time, but longer with delays:D jks seriously I think 2nd quarter 2007 is a good time because in a span of a year they can settle out differences or whatever kind of corruption there is.

I know this may not be an appropriate question but.....

what happened to MRT 4,5 and 6.

We only have MRT-3 then the rest are LRT-1 and LRT-2 and the two new ones: MRT 7 and MRT 8.

What the hell happened to 1,2,4,5 and 6?
lrt and mrt is the same for all intents and purpose. label lang nagpalit because mrt was a bot . the technical specs and line poundage is the same, it's a key factor in the tor. They anticipate that many years from now there will only be one company owning all of this and the system will be better if there is one standard for the rails, stock, hopefully systems (but this evolves much faster)

line 1 lrt 1 exist
line 2 lrt 2 exist
line 3 = mrt now mrt 3
line 4 was supposed to run from manila to novaliches but looks malabo due to
mrt 7 proposal which wants to run the commonwealth route too
line 6 is actually the extension to cavite of lrt 1 from what i remember
line 8 runs from sta mesa through shaw blvd to angono
I can't remember what line 5 is. It may be the circular manila subway which hits the fort, mandaluyong, makati into sta ana and connects to the railways or if it's the manila south rail/north rail

soon we'll have MRT-23 just because the developers liked the number. ;)

but sooner or later, theoretically, the government will function and profit from these lines right?

hahay, for sure mrt7 will be semi elevated like mrt3. sana like the 2 lrt's na elevated talaga.. pampasikip kc ng kalye, like edsa right now.

oh no any new lines that will be like MRT3 is disaster. It's like using Hitler as your role model :bash:

line 5 is supposed to be the circle subway line. Imo this is the most malabo.:D

maybe malabo in my lifetime but hopefully not yours :) para makatikim ang mga pilipino ng subway (naku baka baha pa!)

maybe malabo in my lifetime but hopefully not yours :) para makatikim ang mga pilipino ng subway (naku baka baha pa!)

subway with water. why not? basta pinoy posible... :lol:

oo nga i've seen this one sa map na MM maps. and its circular! hehehe... astig. never knew it was a subway. i wish makita ko pa to. kahit 69 yrs old nako. :lol:

Oh so it was originally planned as a subway... It's the circular line running along fort bonifacio and NAIA, right? Anyway, having a subway is a great idea. Though I think, given the situation right now, it is not possible. Basta pinoy posibleng ma-delay uli!

maybe malabo in my lifetime but hopefully not yours :) para makatikim ang mga pilipino ng subway (naku baka baha pa!)

maybe just underground ferry na lang:D

That subway connecting makati-BGC-mandaluyong-Binondo connects to north rail.. it will also give an access to naia from makati.. i have a rendering of it at citiatlas-metro manila. i'll try to scan this..

Sana kahit hindi Subway, basta may rail access ang naia.

^ yeh that's true.. or if the government decides to "cut costs" i.e. divert funds from the project, they could have a shuttle bus connecting that to the LRT1 extension. Right now Sucat Road heading to NAIA is so clogged.

i guess this supposed to be subway is the line5(orange line.) MRT3 is red, LRT2 is blue, LRT1 is yellow, LRT extension to cavite is brown. MRT7 does not seem to appear here.. not in north ave but in quezon ave going to commonwealth w'c is the green line.

^^o wow... please :D

oh no any new lines that will be like MRT3 is disaster. It's like using Hitler as your role model :bash:

Haha! I like your comparison Renell. Made me spew out the water I was drinking! :rofl:

maybe just underground ferry na lang:D
haha you may have something here :) I was always partial to the "It's a small world after all" ride in disneyland. We could pattern it after that exept that the marionettes would be singing "pinoy ako" and doing the Pinoy big brother dance. Think of it, 30 minute long rides that go around the Metropolis singing the same song! hehe


Anyway I don't think it's a dead project after all it's the key connection among all lines (parang "the one line to rule them all" hehe, it's just that it's easily the hardest most expensive one tobuild, with Manila's high water table and jumble of pipes and wires et al who knows whats there. Estimates could be 200 to 500 million$ per km! And it's not feasible elevated as there is no possible alignement and the CBD's it would pass through would not allow an overhead rail line through (howbaduy naman).

...it's a small world after all...

We could pattern it after that exept that the marionettes would be singing "pinoy ako" and doing the Pinoy big brother dance. Think of it, 30 minute long rides that go around the Metropolis singing the same song! hehe


i love this one... why not? :lol: posible in the future pasig river ferry system.

Hindi ko na scan.. kinunan ko nalang para mas madali kaya mejo poor quality.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/angeleslew/Picture010.jpg

'tong green line ito yata ang mrt7. pero nasa quezon ave sya instaed of north ave.

the greenline is actually lrt 4, but it's alignment from quezon memorial circle to novaliches has been taken by mrt 7

actually luman na kasi iyan pix, that's why we don't use it much. the subway supposedly passes shaw but right now this is line 8 I think from Vmapa all the way along shaw to pasig and beyond

There's even a BRT proposal before by volvo for C5!

sorry... but does the subway run under the southrail till pandacan... (un ung nasa map eh...) or dun na magsastart ung southrail...? masasagasaan nga nya ung mrt 8 noh?

There's even a BRT proposal before by volvo for C5!

NO F*CKING WAY!!! GOD!!!! Even those awful BRT proponents have reached the shores of the Philippines as well! Sooner or later, ALL those yet to be built MRT/LRT lines will be BRT lines and we would be back where we started when buses were the only means of mass transit (aka EDSA before MRT3). :rant:

BRT huh? care to inform us?

btw.. yeh it is quite old MRT4 isn't going all the way to Recto/Don Jose is it? I'm not too keen on a massive hub in today's world though

rich di pa sigurado iyung alignment, the only thing they want for sure is that eventually the fort should have a stop somewhere near it and in makati there will be a stop. it's been moving around and with line 8 from sta mesa to angono , di ko lang alam paano nila ayusin. I've seen one going through greenhills san juan , then ortigas, down to fort, makati then back to manila, of course it ends up where the northrail terminal is. I think the older plan was to have the northrail terminal end at the fort! you can see it at their old plans. of course things are different now. abangan ang susunod na kabanata!

Wally have to say nobody rants like you hehe, ease up on the four letter words lang for the sake of the ladies and minors haha:) Not to worry it's been tabled for the moment! I know you much prefer rail specially over brt.

Renell The BRT proposal came from volvo philippines with some locals , this was at least 10 years back, the idea was for a dedicated roadway and volvo would field a nice big bus, perhaps even electric, they would have specific stations with elevated platforms thus not allowing people to get on and of board if they were not at the station. This is basically a copy of the very famous and succesfuly curitiba Bus system. With this the virtual elimination of all jeeps along C5/ libis/Katipunan would be ensured and fast mass transit at very low cost would be in place, I think one problem was that they had political opposition obviously with the jeeps. and of course it would have been a monopoly, Otherwise this area actually has no bus system!

It seems like there is a planned rail passing through Forbes Park or is it along Kalayaan? Baka hindi makatulog ang mga taga Forbes Park sa ingay.

grabe cant imagine that subway being built... seeing that map ang my map... seems imposible sa dami ng sasagasaan nya. ang trouble sa project na to... siguradong... right of way. patay-patay sila dun.

dun palang ubos na pera nila. :) :lol:

it's also not in the best financial options to have a full-subway line unless it was required.

we should start recommending to make the subway now since our basic wages are about, what, the most would be P350/day, very cheap

Is that for real? A proposed subways in the Philippines? What about the flood zone areas and where are they going to be able to dig one or the line? The capital region is very congested and like the City of Manila, i've heard that the traffic route wasn't really well planned unlike Makati and the newer surrounding areas.

^^Manila planning was not bad but the rise of makati changed the center from manila to makati hence the design of multiple radial roads from center to outlying areas was not followed. Now we're stuck with the Ortigas Makati Axis along EDSA (which was to supposed to be a diversion-bypass road!) as the main area hence really not enough roads.

Everyone agrees in general the circular line ( passing through the CBDs (ort,fort,makati) and manila is a good idea) but the all the comments above show why it's very difficult. Right of way, cost of building in floodprone areas etc. I think it will happen and perhaps not all subway but I think it will take a long time when teh PHilippines will have enough money or the project can be undertaken by the private sector alone. Maybe 10 to 15 years from now.

Also I believe another problem is that the fares for the current MRT/LRT lines are not enough to keep up with the budget

Another map of Manila's planned LRT/MRT. :)

http://www.klima.ph/cth/overview/existing_modes_private/private_clip_image002.gif

LRTA to increase number of trains
From http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=31958

The Light Rail Transit Authority (LRTA) plans to raise the number of its running trains this year to accommodate unmet passenger demand.

Takeshi Kikukawa, a Japan International Cooperation Agency expert and advisor to the LRTA administrator, told reporters that LRTA will double the number of trains from 75 to 130 starting July this year to ease passenger congestion and increase revenue.

He did not give any specific investment and revenue figures.

"The bottleneck comes from the lack of running trains and there is really a big demand for it that’s why LRTA will be adding more trains this year. It also expects additional revenues because of anticipated increase in ridership," Kikukawa said.

The project will also involve the acquisition and installation of air-conditioning units in the old fleet, acquisition of additional air-conditioned four-car trains which will require additional upgrading and equipment for signaling, telecommunications, traction power supply and distribution, track work, and automated fare collection system.

Additional civil works for some stations and depot will also be undertaken by LRTA to accommodate new trains and enhance headway.

Besides these initiatives, Kikukawa, who conducted a study on the LRT operations, said that he recommended a fare adjustment and the adoption of fare discounts on peak and off-peak hours to further increase ridership.

"Part of the recommendation is a fare adjustment but there’s still no specific rate set. It is still to be computed by considering many factors such as social benefits and the ability of the government to subsidize and passengers’ power to pay," he said.

For the fare discount, Kikukawa recommended cutting fares during off-peak hours to attract more passengers and reset them to a higher rate during peak hours. Special discounts are also proposed during weekends to entice the public to use the LRT instead of jeepneys, buses and taxis.

"The LRTA is optimistic about it and it is willing to test the market if this system will work," he said adding that this kind of operation is being used in other Asian countries such as Japan.

The LRT Line 1 capacity expansion project is intended to respond to the felt need for an expansion of the capacity of the country’s first LRT system which has continued to operate with its original fleet acquired in the mid-1980’s.

It is divided into two phases: the LRT Line 1 capacity expansion (Phase I) project, involves transforming the old two-car train sets to three-car train sets in conjunction with the acquisition of new generation trains which are longer and wider than the existing fleet to offer incremental capacity.

The project aims at further expanding the capacity of LRT Line 1 to 40,000 passengers per peak hour per direction (pphpd) from the expanded capacity (Phase I) of 27,000 pphpd.

Hence, the Phase II project could accommodate the expected increase in volume of passengers using LRT Line 1 and the additional passenger demand under the integrated Metro Rail Transit Line 1, 2 and 3 systems.

The LRT serves an average of 350,000 passengers daily, which is considered one of the largest in Southeast Asia. Angelo S. Samonte

good for the LRT riders! how about the MRT? they should increase the number of trains and the length of the trains in the MRT..

have anybody heard of this project before?... i got this from the PEA website..


OBC-MANILA BAY RECLAMATION MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM

Three foreign companies tied up with the Public Estates Authority (PEA) for the development of a $436-M mass transit system that would link Manila’s Old Bilibid to Bay City project in the Manila Bay reclamation area.

The proponents are suggesting the use of rail mass transit systems to improve the traffic situation in Metro Manila because of its inherent advantage over expressways, particularly with respect to transport capacities and environmental impact.

The line, which will connect the Old Bilibid and Bay City, covers 13 kilometers. The project’s alignment, which will include 12 stations, will traverse through Intramuros and Roxas Boulevard, then finally terminating in Bay City.

Hmm... that's interesting, our LRT lines are one of the largest systems in terms of passenger use. And yet there are a lot of financial problems with it :no:

Hmm... that's interesting, our LRT lines are one of the largest systems in terms of passenger use. And yet there are a lot of financial problems with it :no:

LRT-1 and MRT-3 already have enough ridership. In fact, during peak hours there aren't enough trains to service the passengers.

The fares are really much too low right now (PhP15 [less than US$0.30] end to end fare for both lines -- or an average of 12.50/passenger [less than US$0.25/passenger]). This fare is too low compared to aircon bus fare or FX fare going over the same route.

The fare setting system is not well defined so politicians who want to hijack the process to look good to the LRT/MRT riding public can do so. Fare setting hearings end up more like circuses rather than rational financial exercises. :bash:

The LRTA has to define a rational fare setting mechanism that will put politics on the sideline and focus on the long-term health of the system and the riding public's welfare.

AFAIK, there is a proposal in Congress to make the fare setting system more rational. However, it is not gaining any momentum with other members of Congress.

so nothing happened to the plan that was supposed to moderate all mass transit prices?

AFAIK, there is a proposal in Congress to make the fare setting system more rational. However, it is not gaining any momentum with other members of Congress.

Wait wait wait... meaning to say Problema pa to ng kongreso? Y don't they let the local goverments covered by the LRT/MRT routes trash this thing out. The congress has much better things to do than debate aboout FARE schemes of these trains that even the regular Promdi Juan Dela Cruz are not able to use but still pay the subsidy thru his taxes. This is really unfair. This has got to stop. The Provinces Deserve better infra-structure support than Metro Manila. Nothing against Mass Transport system, but this style of legislation is just to unfair to the probinsyanos.

Federalize na...

yah, tell that to the over 13 million people of metro who suffers from too much congestion. i mean dont forget that most of them came from the provinces too.

does it really pass thru Congress?... I don't think so... the last fare adjustment didn't passed thru Congress.. am I right?.... what I know is LTFRB monitors the fare adjustment for the LRTs...

yah, tell that to the over 13 million people of metro who suffers from too much congestion. i mean dont forget that most of them came from the provinces too.

And we all know why they are in Manila... No oppurtunity in the Provinces because of lack of infra-support. So development is hampered. To be honest, im also a humble probinsyano from Bicol, and I really hate to be in Manila everytime I need to be there. Too chaotic for me.

Pau I think that may be a non starter if they pass through roxas boulevard, the greenies will never allow it, kung overpass lang ng kotse ayaw nila, bung train pa!

JChip does not mean that congress sets the fare but the current Law needs to be revised so that the price setting process is not subject to so much politics. This problem happens in a lot of politically sensitive consumer items, like water (partial reason for maynilad's bankruptcy, Power (single largest source of the fiscal deficit), and of course our mass transit is the cheapest in the world.

Oli - for at least the past decade NCR has actually been a net exporter of the budget (meaning it contributes more taxes to the general budget than it actually uses). In general though I do agree that cities should help shoulder the expenses of the mass transit lines , makati, qc are sitting on billions of surplus, so the whole system of appropriation as to be realigned.

taken from abs-cbnnews.com.. donate the trains? hmmmm.. do we really have to resort to begging for assistance? :P

Austrian assistance sought for MRT 3

The Arroyo administration will ask the Austrian government to donate second-hand light rail vehicles (LRVs) for the capacity expansion of Metro Rail Transit 3 (MRT 3), an official of the Department of Transportation and Communication (DOTC) said.

Roberto R. Castanares, DOTC assistant secretary said officials plan to fly to Vienna next month to inspect its unused LRVs and determine their suitability for MRT 3 use.

Castanares said the capacity expansion will increase volume lodging by 200,000 passengers a day.

If the Austrian government agrees to donate 48 of its light rail vehicles, the delivery of the trains will be expected in December this year.

Castanares explained the Philippines could save millions of dollars should the donations push through, as the government expects to spend $400,000 to $500,000 for the refurbishment of second-hand LRVs compared with a brand new train that would cost $2 million each.

The refurbishing of the trains may be completed in the first quarter of next year while commercial use will be by end-2007.

The MRT 3 was built under a Build-Operate-Transfer agreement to be paid in 25 years. The first phase of MRT 3 runs through EDSA from Taft Avenue in the south to the EDSA-North Avenue intersection in the north for a total length of 16.9 kilometers covering 13 stations.

Its ridership has increased from 89 million in 2000 to 122,512,169 in 2004 and 128,751,959 last year.

Earlier, the government said it plans to take over the operations of MRT 3 to save money, but the plan fell through owing to the country’s fiscal situation. DOTC studies showed that government stands to save at least $1 billion for the early buyout of MRT 3.

Darwin G. Amojelar

here's another version from businessworld, hehe anyway 2nd is ok if it will help increase the capacity, am tired of being sandwiched between so many people, kawawa ang mga babae!



Vol. XIX, No. 165
Tuesday, March 14, 2006 | MANILA, PHILIPPINES

The Economy
Government seeks Austrian donation of 16 trains for MRT-3 line

The Transportation department will initiate talks with the government of Austria next month for the donation to the Philippines of 48 of its spare light rail vehicles that are equivalent to 16 trains.

Transportation Assistant Sec. Roberto R. Castañares said the government wants to use the additional rail vehicles to increase loading capacity of the already-overcrowded Metro Rail Transit 3 (MRT-3) on EDSA at low cost.

The Transportation department expects to spend $400,000 to $500,000 to refurbish each rail vehicle, much lower than the projected cost of $2 million per brand new vehicle.

It also expects to secure a 20-year warranty for the upkeep of the trains from European rail vehicle manufacturers doing business with Vienna.

The 13-station MRT-3 is now served by 21 trains that carry 350,000 to 400,000 passengers daily, higher than its normal loading capacity of 300,000 passengers daily.

INCREASED CAPACITY

If the Transportation department can convince Vienna to donate the trains to the Philippines, then the MRT-3 loading capacity will be raised by 200,000 passengers daily.

The trains will have a life span of another 12-15 years, about the same life span of existing MRT-3 trains.

Mr. Castañares said that officials of the Transportation department will fly to Vienna next month to inspect the trains, particularly to determine whether they are technically compatible with the rail standards of MRT-3.

If the trains fit the specifications of MRT-3 and if Vienna would agree to donate them, then delivery can be expected this December, he added.

Refurbishing of the trains will be done in first quarter of 2007 and commercial use of the trains along the MRT-3 revenue line will be scheduled by end of next year.

A European rail vehicle manufacturer with presence in Manila tipped off the Transportation department of the availability of the trains from Vienna, Mr. Castañares said. It said the Vienna Metro Management is set to replace 80 of its rail vehicles that were built from 1979 to 1983. The manufacturer claims that the rail vehicles are "perfectly maintained" and would be available this July.

The Transportation department needs 48 rail vehicles for the capacity expansion program of MRT-3.

COSTLY PROPOSITION

"MRT has been a costly proposition for the government but we continued to finance its programs and subsidize its fares because of its phenomenal ridership. It is but logical for us to look for ways to save on its capacity expansion project," Mr. Castañares said.

"We will request the President [Gloria Macapagal Arroyo] to allocate a part of the Executive Branch’s pump-priming fund or we can re-align some parcels of the department’s P14-billion budget for this [for MRT-3 capacity expansion]," he added, when asked about the source of funding for the Austrian rail vehicles.

In 2004, the Metro Rail Transit Authority has petitioned the Transportation department to buy new trains that will boost capacity of MRT-3. Implementation of the capacity expansion project, however, was put on hold due to poor finances of the railway.

MRT-3 has a daily revenue of P4 million from its average 450,000 regular riders at the current average fare of P12.50. Payment for rentals, maintenance, and staffing is pegged at P9.9 million daily.

Last year, the government planned to implement the project using official development assistance (ODA) loans, for which interest will stand at 2%-3% and payments were to be spread out over 25 years. ODA commitments of the government, however, had by then been fully allotted until 2008.

MRT-3 developer Metro Rail Transit Corp. has also proposed to implement the project for the government at a cost of $120.84 million. The Transportation department, however, had not been inclined to award the contract to MRTC due to what the government said was a high price. -- Kerlyn G. Bautista

Regardless of what ppl think about getting second hand merchandise from Euroland, this is actualy a good thing, a true testament to the versatility and flexibility of the LRV. The fact that you are not limited to a single proprietor, technology is interchangable, LRVs are "off the shelf", and so on, even a cash strapped entity can easily find ways to acquire much needed rolling stock to serve the riding public.

Now if only they would just connect LRT1 and MRT 3 instead of that implementing that stupid 6 km stand alone system that they are proposing, there would be hope for Metro Manila's transportation crisis....

taken from abs-cbnnews.com.. donate the trains? hmmmm.. do we really have to resort to begging for assistance? :P


well the AFP does that for a lot of its equipment acquiring. I think it's a good idea, let's face it we're a developing country, we need all the help we need whatever these nationalists say.

I, like Wally, is also a strong believer in having a single train system. I think one of the former forumers, queetz, told me that it is possible for MRT3 and LRT1 trains to run in the same tracks. However there is that different companies thing that stands in the way.

^^ i guess you're right renell..

and i also believe in having a single train system.. i hope that all the planned LRT/MRT lines and the northrail/southrail projects would push thru and be finished sometime in the next ten years.. it would really really help in decongesting metro manila.. cant wait to see that future happen..

The TOR for the whole MM mass transit system has same spec for track, carraige and differs only for other systems such as ticketing (which has shorter technology life cycles) and civil works which does not impact day to day operations. It was designed for the eventual implementation as one system.

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/060309_3rdGenLRVMockup01.jpg

The LRTA is expecting a fleet of twelve (12) brand new, four car trains to arrive sometime in the third quarter of this year.

Glad that these new trains will at least be operating this year :)

i assume these are for the LRT-1 line? great great news!

ARe these the new trains for lrt 1. They look nice but remind me of a disney land ride!:)

wow... that train looks great... sweet! :)

yah... thats for line 1... (yellow eh)

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/060309_3rdGenLRVMockup02.jpg

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/060309_3rdGenLRVMockup03.jpg

*i hope sunod nilang ayusin eh ung mga stations. :)

yep. for the LRT Line, so they can serve 40,000 PAX/hr from the present 27,000 PAX/hr

see here
http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/press_release_060309_3rdGenLRV.htm

yeah ok, great sleauthing. mukhang makitid no. I'm sure it's the normal width just the optical illusion of thinness.

We are a developing country and we must swallow are pride now to save money and see to it that we are relevant in the future. We reap what we sow right?

wow... that train looks great... sweet! :)

yah... thats for line 1... (yellow eh)

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/060309_3rdGenLRVMockup01.jpg

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/060309_3rdGenLRVMockup02.jpg

http://www.lrta.gov.ph/press_release/pressphotos/060309_3rdGenLRVMockup03.jpg



Wow, those brand new trains are amazing. Not what you see in RP everyday and I hope that this would mark the start of better things to come.