http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1089253.html


By News Agencies

A new study published in a Turkish newspaper Sunday said 64 percent of Turks would not want Jewish neighbours.

The study also suggested Turks had a low tolerance for diverse lifestyles in general, as three in four respondents said they would not want to live next to an atheist or anyone drinking alcohol.

The study by Istanbul's Bahcesehir University was meant to gauge radicalism and extremism in Turkey.


Results published in Sunday's Milliyet also stated that 52 percent would not want Christian neighbors, 67 would not want to live next to an unmarried couple and 43 percent would not want American neighbors.

Religious extremism and nationalism have remained level in Turkey this decade, although anti-Israeli sentiment was on the rise, said Yilmaz Esmer, a professor of political science at Bahcesehir who led the study.

Israel is the most unpopular foreign country, followed by Armenia and the United States, the study revealed. Israel is also seen as most responsible for the world's problems, followed by U.S. and EU policies, according to the survey.

A majority of Turks support their government's bid to join the European Union, the study revealed, but most say the bloc views it with prejudice because Turkey is a Muslim nation.

Three out of four Turks believe the EU is trying to divide Turkey and 81 percent believe the bloc's goal is to spread Christianity, said the study.

Despite this, 57 percent want full EU membership for Turkey.

"A majority of Turks still want EU membership, but a larger majority has very serious doubts about the EU's intentions towards Turkey," Esmer said.

One out of four Turks thinks Turkey is either already a full member of the EU or is unsure of its status, he said. Turkey has in fact been an official candidate for EU membership for 10 years and has completed only one of the 35 'chapters' in the accession process.

Sixty-two percent of Turks said religion was their priority, followed by 17 percent who said secularism was. Democratization was the top priority for 15 percent, followed by smaller numbers who cited ethnic identity and financial gain.

"The main issue for Turks is religion and secularism," Esmer said.
About 18 percent of respondents said they felt discriminated against, the highest rate in Europe, Esmer said. Still, most respondents felt that religious and ethnic diversity enriched life, rather than threatened national unity, he said.

The survey is based on interviews with 1,715 people selected randomly from 34 cities between April 12 and May 3. No margin of error was given. :ohno::ohno::ohno:

:ancient:

I find these figures realy hard to believe, I would take them with a grain of salt.

Despite the atmosphere being somewhat hysterical lately I don't believe that it is that bad.

We have to see the questions asked and what method they used to make this research.

Even though sometimes I feel like I'm living in a nightmare, when I look around me I see alot of things that contradict the bleak atmosphere portrayed in the news and these polls.

It is too bad that the Ottomans who are just waking up from a long sleep to become once again a major power in the area would destroy that chance. Any country that want to advance in the Middle East has to consider the Israeli interests. In any case, hopefully, Syria would do a lot for them as an independent sovereign state of Kurdistan will do for Israel.

^^

The Ottomans are dead and buried (and they'll stay that way, I don't believe in zombies), and what are you implying about Kurdistan?

Israel's flirtation with the Kurds has done much more for the downfall of it's image in Turkey than the Islamists could ever have hoped for by just using the Palestinian card. Even hardline secularists like my self sometimes loose the heart and will to defend Israeli Turkish relations due to this flirtation.

Then ALL countries have a bad reputation in Turkey. Because ALL Western democracies want more rights for Kurds (not only in Turkey).

I think you're over reacting about Israel's flirt with the Kurds

I do think that also. Israel is not as much involved in that as many people think.

Then ALL countries have a bad reputation in Turkey. Because ALL Western democracies want more rights for Kurds (not only in Turkey).

Yes

We are as sensitive about the Kurdish issue as you are about the Palestinian issue.

We are just as fed up as you with being labeled the culprits by nations that do not know any of the details.

And we are just as fed up about the Kurds being shown as innocent victims that are being continously abused and opressed, as you are about the Palestinians.

It took the EU, for example, nearly 20 years to recognise the PKK (Kurdish terrorist organisation) as a terrorist organisation.

Is it just about wanting more rights?

I really didn't know that people think that :\

and where is the moral clarity? now they are getting closer to Iran and Syria... haven't they see what's been going on over there just a few months ago??

I think you're over reacting about Israel's flirt with the Kurds

I don't think I am. I am just stating the situation as seen from here. You defend Kurdish separatism (even if only in Iraq atm), we oppose it so it is inevitable that this sooner or later causes a clash with Israel, just like our government's preferentialism towards Palestinians causes a clash with Turkey.

I don't think I am. I am just stating the situation as seen from here. You defend Kurdish separatism (even if only in Iraq atm), we oppose it so it is inevitable that this sooner or later causes a clash with Israel, just like our government's preferentialism towards Palestinians causes a clash with Turkey.

I really must admit that I barely know a thing about this conflict and its almost never mentioned in news or papers here, including in any anti Turkish fashion..
Israeli's here use this conflict just to try and show the lack of moral clarity with the anti Israel claims (and there is plenty of it..).
In no way Israel, formally, defends the Kurds. For example, one officer got reproached for condemning Turkey about the Armenian holocaust..
On the other hand the Turkish government freely condemns Israel in every opportunity and that's just puzzling since we used to be great friends.

Turkey, the new Germany!

Jews were killed by germans on purpose with no reason because of hate and racism.It was a holocaust.It was all planned : "Endlösung der Judenfrage" Wansee-Conference !!!!


Armenians united themselves with the russians and organized a rebellion against the empire.They armed themselves and began to kill turkish civilians while the Ottoman Army fought on four battle zones.

Ottomans still didn´t kill them.They deported themselves to Syria which is also Ottoman territory.Logic was : to keep them in Syria for a time until the Ottoman Army have the controll over all territories.Then they can resettle back to their home.What happened : during the long trip to Syria they died because of dry weather,less water and nothing to eat !!!

And i must say sorry for you :)

Turkey-Armenia relation is getting better.Now Turkey and Armenia are building a common historical commission with ottoman/armenian archives to proove there wasnt a "so called" genocide.Now historians will speak and not politicians.

Don´t mix jewish holocaust with rebellion of armenians

And i must say sorry for you :)



are you 3?

The Armenians are cooperating with the Turks to prove the there was no genocide? really???? after asking for world recognition of this for almost a 100 years?? what planet are you living on??




here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

but don't let the facts confuse you



by the way, to the shame of us, Israel doesn't recognize the Armenian genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_the_Armenian_Genocide

Well the western world has its own story.But the real facts lies on ottoman archives.We have the historical documents and archives what real happened in 1915.To proove history you must read real sources to follow the actions of the Empire.What happened in the Nazi Empire is all prooved with documents,pictures and plans of the Nazis.Turkey always has offered Armenia to built a common historical commission with archives of the Ottoman Empire.They always denied it.But now Armenia is ready to look into the archives and let the historians speak.

Archives and documents of the Ottoman Empire with real sources !!!


http://medya.zaman.com.tr/extentions/haberinfotografi/2009-09-23-osmanli-arsivi/img/01.jpg

http://medya.zaman.com.tr/extentions/haberinfotografi/2009-09-23-osmanli-arsivi/img/02.jpg

http://medya.zaman.com.tr/extentions/haberinfotografi/2009-09-23-osmanli-arsivi/img/05.jpg

http://medya.zaman.com.tr/extentions/haberinfotografi/2009-09-23-osmanli-arsivi/img/04.jpg

Here you can read what the Ottoman Empire has done !!!!

Well the western world has its own story.But the real facts lies on ottoman archives.We have the historical documents and archives what real happened in 1915.To proove history you must read real sources to follow the actions of the Empire.What happened in the Nazi Empire is all prooved with documents,
pictures and plans of the Nazis.Turkey always has offered Armenia to built a common historical commission with archives of the Ottoman Empire.They always denied it.But now Armenia is ready to look into the archives and let the historians speak.

Archives and documents of the Ottoman Empire with real sources !!!

so the only truth in the world is what's written in the Ottoman empire archives?

Well I guess only the future will tell who's right

Turkey, the new Germany!

That is true. While Germany prohibits Nazism, "Mein Kampf" was an enormous success - together with Brazil the best and biggest maket for such scriptures... :ohno:

there is no place to compare the two

so the only truth in the world is what's written in the Ottoman empire archives?

Well I guess only the future will tell who's right

Well every state of the world has documents of agreements,signs,political decisions.It is all written on paper.For example the agreement of the Wansee-Conference "Endlösung der Judenfrage" is written on paper.Or architectural maps of the Nazi concentration camps.

Historical archives and documents are the real sources or do you lived in 1915 and have seen everything live.Where we know that the ancient egyptians had a pharao called Ramses etc. ????

There is no comparison. But what imports a lot is how the countries deal and dealt wiht the past and the atrocities. And what also counts is how they are doing TODAY! Germany has become the fastest growing Jewish community in the world - we have new synagogues and Jewish centres being built and established all over the country.
At the same time Turkey is moving away from it's friendship with Israel and an EU membership. They are seeking new friendships with Syria or Iran and become everytime more religous and orientalized. It is a pity that Turkey has forgotten it's old secular principles... The Armenian genocide was not carried out because of religious, but of racist reasons.
Just as the "grey wolves" today aren't religious in the first place but racist and fascist. The religion for them comes in second place - but that doesn't make them any better...

Well every state of the world has documents of agreements,signs,political decisions.It is all written on paper.For example the agreement of the Wansee-Conference "Endlösung der Judenfrage" is written on paper.Or architectural maps of the Nazi concentration camps.

Historical archives and documents are the real sources or do you lived in 1915 and have seen everything live.Where we know that the ancient egyptians had a pharao called Ramses etc. ????

but there are other sources, such as the Armenian and other foreign sources, the wiki article is based on these sources, what you're saying is that they are all wrong, which is legitimate if you can prove it.

Well refusing facts is easier than managing them. Thus some people like to ignore them and stay resistant to knowledge...

So you say a man from Japan knows turkish history better than some turkish historian in Istanbul with 1:1 archives and sources :lol:

So you say a man from Japan knows turkish history better than some turkish historian in Istanbul with 1:1 archives and sources :lol:

:ohno:

no ones claiming he's an expert in Turkish history!

i love how people live in denial. everyone thinks he / his country is right / best.! grow up guys! (no offense :okay:)

Yeah the whole world knows turkish history but we are the only one who have not a single clue what happened in 1915.Allright :nuts:

So you say a man from Japan knows turkish history better than some turkish historian in Istanbul with 1:1 archives and sources :lol:

The Turkish may KNOW better, but the question is whether he also SAYS what he KNOWS! ;)

We have nothing to hide.We say to Armenia come and read the Ottoman Archives.And they will do it.So a big lie of history will disappear from history books :cheers:

Yes

We are as sensitive about the Kurdish issue as you are about the Palestinian issue.

We are just as fed up as you with being labeled the culprits by nations that do not know any of the details.

And we are just as fed up about the Kurds being shown as innocent victims that are being continously abused and opressed, as you are about the Palestinians.

It took the EU, for example, nearly 20 years to recognise the PKK (Kurdish terrorist organisation) as a terrorist organisation.

Is it just about wanting more rights?

so of all the countries you, the Turks should understand us. but instead of that you accuse us of genocide every few weeks.
your country national channel broadcast false TV series about Israeli army who killing inocent children. show me one denunsiation of Turkey that came from Israel.

it's like two people eating shit but instead of supporting each otrher one person is going and telling otheres that his friend is eating shit.

There is no comparison. But what imports a lot is how the countries deal and dealt wiht the past and the atrocities. And what also counts is how they are doing TODAY! Germany has become the fastest growing Jewish community in the world - we have new synagogues and Jewish centres being built and established all over the country.
At the same time Turkey is moving away from it's friendship with Israel and an EU membership. They are seeking new friendships with Syria or Iran and become everytime more religous and orientalized. It is a pity that Turkey has forgotten it's old secular principles... The Armenian genocide was not carried out because of religious, but of racist reasons.
Just as the "grey wolves" today aren't religious in the first place but racist and fascist. The religion for them comes in second place - but that doesn't make them any better...

First you treat Turkey differently because it's "different" then you blame Turkey for looking for new partners? Even the colours of the Turkish flag on the Eiffel Tower are enough to annoy people in Europe! The EU is definitly not Turkey's place to be as long as Europe doesn't change it's backward attitude towards Turkey!

I can also imagine that 90% of Germans don't want Turkish neighbours so what? Jews don't need to be treated differently and carefully and politically correct in Tukrey, this is not Germany!

As soon as I see pictures of dead children and civilians you can tell me as much as you want that this is not real! I can't imagine that nowadays life of human being is that cheap! I hate the Israeli government and the western world that must keep quiet because of the past and because of the USA that supports this policy! Any Israeli is welcome in my country but keep away that government!

As soon as I see pictures of dead children and civilians you can tell me as much as you want that this is not real! I can't imagine that nowadays life of human being is that cheap! I hate the Israeli government and the western world that must keep quiet because of the past and because of the USA that supports this policy! Any Israeli is welcome in my country but keep away that government!

What we're trying to say in quite a few threads here, and for every long time is that the Israeli government isn't "murdering" any innocent civilians, but instead of answering our claims, trying to prove us different, you just bash us brainlessly, and don't you just hate it when other foreigners do the same thing to you about the Kurds? so please try and open up your horizons a bit.

^^

The Ottomans are dead and buried (and they'll stay that way, I don't believe in zombies), and what are you implying about Kurdistan?

Israel's flirtation with the Kurds has done much more for the downfall of it's image in Turkey than the Islamists could ever have hoped for by just using the Palestinian card. Even hardline secularists like my self sometimes loose the heart and will to defend Israeli Turkish relations due to this flirtation.

LOL...as if the Islamists or the Turkish seculars like yourself need an excuse to hate Jews/Israel. What else have the Jews/Israel did to make you make you/other Turks feel angry?

PS. You are damn right about the Ottomans and their empire. It went down the way the Roman, Bysantyne, Egyptian, Soviet, Prussian, etc empires and civilizations did. Yet, despite all challenges presented to them the Jews/Jewish civilization is still here and the Jews speak the same language their ancestors did in ancient Egypt.

Has anyone heard anyone speaking Latin?

Yes

We are as sensitive about the Kurdish issue as you are about the Palestinian issue.

We are just as fed up as you with being labeled the culprits by nations that do not know any of the details.

And we are just as fed up about the Kurds being shown as innocent victims that are being continously abused and opressed, as you are about the Palestinians.

It took the EU, for example, nearly 20 years to recognise the PKK (Kurdish terrorist organisation) as a terrorist organisation.

Is it just about wanting more rights?

In reference to Kurds you are mixing nationality and ethnicity.

Palestinians are Arabs just like the Egyptian or the Syrian Arabs. There are already 22 Arab states and 75% of Jordanians claim the Palestnian regional origin.

Kurds are an ethnicity and a nationality. There are between 30M to 40M of them. If the Arabs who claim a Palestinian identity deserve a second Palestinian state (Jordan being the first) the Kurds definitely deserve a sovereignty of their own. Yet, unlike the Arabs they are not allowed to have a country of their own.

As soon as I see pictures of dead children and civilians you can tell me as much as you want that this is not real! I can't imagine that nowadays life of human being is that cheap! I hate the Israeli government and the western world that must keep quiet because of the past and because of the USA that supports this policy! Any Israeli is welcome in my country but keep away that government!

So, do you think that Israel is responsible for the staged Palestinian funerals, suicide bombings that indiscriminately murder the innocent civilians at weddings, pizza parlors, schools and hospitals and that it is definitely the Israeli fault when the Palestinians fire at Israel from the densely populated Palestinian neighborhoods or stockpiling explosives right next to the Palestinian kindergartens?

I really must admit that I barely know a thing about this conflict and its almost never mentioned in news or papers here, including in any anti Turkish fashion..
Israeli's here use this conflict just to try and show the lack of moral clarity with the anti Israel claims (and there is plenty of it..).
In no way Israel, formally, defends the Kurds. For example, one officer got reproached for condemning Turkey about the Armenian holocaust..
On the other hand the Turkish government freely condemns Israel in every opportunity and that's just puzzling since we used to be great friends.

What is puzzeling? the AKP is an islamist party, ofcourse they are going to be obssessed with the palestinian issue, and like all islamist parties throughout the world they are going to be hypocritical about it. this doers not mean that the Kurdish issue can be used as reciprocation when trying to point this out as there are not too many simmilarities between the two, except for the fact that both Turkey and Israel are fighting legitimate battles against terrorism. There are far more better examples of the hypocracy. Israel being protested and being blamed with genocide, yet the president of sudan, where a true genocide is being carried out, being invited to Ankara by the AKP. The palestinian issue being used as an excuse to cut down relations with israel yet going ahead and signing a protocol with Armenia despite their ongoing issues with Azerbaijan and upping relations with Russia despite their invasion and partitioning of Georgia. Saying that we feel close to the palestinians and the images on TV etc etc whatever makes us sad and angry that's why we are condemning Israel, yet turning a blind eye to the Uyghurs (who are much, much more closer to us, at least we can understand eachother even if a little) when they are pleading for our support (not that I am saying we should be supporting either one, but just to show that the flaw in the logic of "we feel for the palestinians" that they are using) .

The Kurdish issue on the other hand is different, supporting Kurdish claims is the equivelent of supporting the Hamas agenda against Israel, the only hypocricy to be pointed out in this issue is that Israel has as much a right as we do to fight terrorism.

so of all the countries you, the Turks should understand us. but instead of that you accuse us of genocide every few weeks.
your country national channel broadcast false TV series about Israeli army who killing inocent children. show me one denunsiation of Turkey that came from Israel.

it's like two people eating shit but instead of supporting each otrher one person is going and telling otheres that his friend is eating shit.

The government is doing that, you are acting like those blaming the whole American people because you disagree with Bush's policies. And yes, anti-semitism is at a high at the moment, but this does not mean Turkey is inherhently anti-semitic, just like in the US when Islamophobia was on a high it did not mean that America was inherently Islamophobic.

LOL...as if the Islamists or the Turkish seculars like yourself need an excuse to hate Jews/Israel. What else have the Jews/Israel did to make you make you/other Turks feel angry?

Are you saying I hate Jews/Israel!

And no, secularists don't hate Jews/Israel, it was secularists who signed a military pact with Israel in the first place. Turks, even the traditional islamists (except for the wannabe arabs like the ones at the steering wheel atm) have never been inherehntly anti-semitic, Turkey was the first demographically Muslim country and one of the first countries in the world to recognise Israel. Maybe you should get your facts strait.

In reference to Kurds you are mixing nationality and ethnicity.

Palestinians are Arabs just like the Egyptian or the Syrian Arabs. There are already 22 Arab states and 75% of Jordanians claim the Palestnian regional origin.

Kurds are an ethnicity and a nationality. There are between 30M to 40M of them. If the Arabs who claim a Palestinian identity deserve a second Palestinian state (Jordan being the first) the Kurds definitely deserve a sovereignty of their own. Yet, unlike the Arabs they are not allowed to have a country of their own.

The Kurds do not deserve an inch of land within the internationally recognised borders of Turkey, the Palestinian issue is about Gaza and the West Bank (land that does not by international recognition belong to Israel in the first place), but by your logic it should also be about the internationally recognised borders of Israel.

And Kurds are Persians (mixed with Arabs and Turks) just like the majority of Iranians to the extent that Palestinians are Arabs like the Saudis.

The Ottomans provided refuge to Jews from Europe didn't they?

Kazahkstan did the same as well? If anything Turkic muslims have always treated Jews fairly and with respect.

The problem is some of you are so blinded with patriotism that the on-going ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is nothing.

The only argument you can use against ethnic cleansing would be the 17% Palestinian muslims in Israel today that while treated as second class citizens are not killed - Now Netanyahu wants them to leave Israel as well.

Had it not been for that Palestinian minority in Israel what you people are doing is nothing short of ethnic cleansing the same shit you accused Nazi Germany.

Then you wonder why Turks are no longer supportive of your government?

Are you saying I hate Jews/Israel!

And no, secularists don't hate Jews/Israel, it was secularists who signed a military pact with Israel in the first place. Turks, even the traditional islamists (except for the wannabe arabs like the ones at the steering wheel atm) have never been inherehntly anti-semitic, Turkey was the first demographically Muslim country and one of the first countries in the world to recognise Israel. Maybe you should get your facts strait.

Do you think I care if you hate Jews or Israel? I hope you don't but if you do it is your problem. You are correct. Turkey did in fact recognize Israel. Also, your land accepted the Jewish refugees who were fleeing the Spanish inquisition in 1492. That record is more precious than gold. However, the current Turkish policies, attitudes and an alliance with terrorist Syria is eroding that record fast.

As soon as I see pictures of dead children and civilians you can tell me as much as you want that this is not real! I can't imagine that nowadays life of human being is that cheap! I hate the Israeli government and the western world that must keep quiet because of the past and because of the USA that supports this policy! Any Israeli is welcome in my country but keep away that government!


seriously Messi, you gott'a look at real picture here, becouse clearly you can't think that our entire agenda is killing people. I belive you yourself can change your opinion about Israel if you agree to just search a little more information about this subject.

The Ottomans provided refuge to Jews from Europe didn't they?

no, they didn't, turkish jews were sent to polish death camps. the only country in that area that did try to save it's jewish community was Bulgaria.


The only argument you can use against ethnic cleansing would be the 17% Palestinian muslims in Israel today that while treated as second class citizens are not killed - Now Netanyahu wants them to leave Israel as well.


where did you came up with that? Netanyahu dosen't want to banish any of our Israeli-Arab community. Liberman might be talking about it, but as everybody knows - no one in the government takes him seriously. so I wouldn't be worrired about that if I were you.


Had it not been for that Palestinian minority in Israel what you people are doing is nothing short of ethnic cleansing the same shit you accused Nazi Germany.

Then you wonder why Turks are no longer supportive of your government?

using the "Nazi" word in this argument won't help your side of the debate here. becouse even you yourself would addmit that Israel will never be as half as bad as Nazi Germany was.

no, they didn't, turkish jews were sent to polish death camps. the only country in that area that did try to save it's jewish community was Bulgaria.

Could you back this statement? this still doesn't discount the fact that Ottomans did provide refuge though?



where did you came up with that? Netanyahu dosen't want to banish any of our Israeli-Arab community. Liberman might be talking about it, but as everybody knows - no one in the government takes him seriously. so I wouldn't be worrired about that if I were you.

Netanyahu said they are a demographic nightmare


using the "Nazi" word in this argument won't help your side of the debate here. becouse even you yourself would addmit that Israel will never be as half as bad as Nazi Germany was.

The reason why I used the word "Nazi" is to mirror the Palestinian oppression with what you folks went through. There are a lot of parallels to be drawn here. Building walls and encircling Palestinians even that in this day and age is nothing short of barbaric.

The Ottomans provided refuge to Jews from Europe didn't they?

Kazahkstan did the same as well? If anything Turkic muslims have always treated Jews fairly and with respect.

The problem is some of you are so blinded with patriotism that the on-going ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is nothing.

The only argument you can use against ethnic cleansing would be the 17% Palestinian muslims in Israel today that while treated as second class citizens are not killed - Now Netanyahu wants them to leave Israel as well.

Had it not been for that Palestinian minority in Israel what you people are doing is nothing short of ethnic cleansing the same shit you accused Nazi Germany.

Then you wonder why Turks are no longer supportive of your government?

Actually, the Israeli Arabs are the first class citizens in Israel and not the Jews. It is the Jews who created the hospitals, universities, research centers, etc for the benefits of both Arabs and Jews of Israel.

Yet, it is only the Jews who do the dying defending the state against the enemies and not the Arabs. So, who has it better?

Could you back this statement? this still doesn't discount the fact that Ottomans did provide refuge though?


Netanyahu said they are a demographic nightmare


The reason why I used the word "Nazi" is to mirror the Palestinian oppression with what you folks went through. There are a lot of parallels to be drawn here. Building walls and encircling Palestinians even that in this day and age is nothing short of barbaric.

Your NAZI comparison is not only inaccurate but also grossly vile. Yet, it is not surprising that somebody would come to the Israeli forums to spew their venom. Naturally you are an enemy but it may not be so bad. Some Jews need to be brought to reality by the likes of you. There is another benefit to your anti-Semitism, it makes the Jews not only stronger but also more intelligent. Jews must be technologically superior to survive your kind.

....and the last point, it would have been a Jewish dream if the Jews were treated by Arabs the way the Jews treat the Arabs. Had it been the case, 100000 terrorist attacks on the innocent civilians would have never happened...and the Jews would have never been expelled from their homes in most Arab states only to find refuge in Israel.

Could you back this statement? this still doesn't discount the fact that Ottomans did provide refuge though?




Netanyahu said they are a demographic nightmare



The reason why I used the word "Nazi" is to mirror the Palestinian oppression with what you folks went through. There are a lot of parallels to be drawn here. Building walls and encircling Palestinians even that in this day and age is nothing short of barbaric.



I'm not saying that turkish didn't saved jews during the holocaust, but the only nation that publicly faugt to save it's jewish community was Bulgaria.

I would like to see where did you got that quote of Netanyahu when he said it. and let's just drop the N word out of this discotion, OK?

no, they didn't, turkish jews were sent to polish death camps. the only country in that area that did try to save it's jewish community was Bulgaria.



Turkey was the only country along with Spain,Portugal,GB,Suisse that wasn´t invaded by the Nazi Empire.Only invaded countries has sent jews to the death camps.

Your NAZI comparison is not only inaccurate but also grossly vile. Yet, it is not surprising that somebody would come to the Israeli forums to spew their venom. Naturally you are an enemy but it may not be so bad. Some Jews need to be brought to reality by the likes of you. There is another benefit to your anti-Semitism, it makes the Jews not only stronger but also more intelligent. Jews must be technologically superior to survive your kind.


:lol: I'm sorry bro, but you sound paranoid nor do you sound very intelligent.

My kind are the one's that rather see a two state solution - you don't even know who your talking to.

:lol: I'm sorry bro, but you sound paranoid nor do you sound very intelligent.

My kind are the one's that rather see a two state solution - you don't even know who your talking to.

I'm afraid it's you who sound ignorant and brain washed.
Anti semitic shows on your national TV aren't the only source about Israel you know :ohno:

I watched that series finally and seriously the scenes in that movie are not as bas as the real videos on youtube. I say youtube because there are sites which show even worse than youtube which can't be shown on youtube.

I watched that series finally and seriously the scenes in that movie are not as bas as the real videos on youtube. I say youtube because there are sites which show even worse than youtube which can't be shown on youtube.

Is there any way we can see the show?

I do not believe it ! that is crap !
jews and muslims have so many things in common
I saw something similar about morocco that 94 % do not approve and do not drink alcohol that is bullshit ! no way
these figures are twisted and misleading

:lol: I'm sorry bro, but you sound paranoid nor do you sound very intelligent.

My kind are the one's that rather see a two state solution - you don't even know who your talking to.

There can never be a 2-state solution. Since 75% of Jordanian Arabs claim the Palestinian Arab identity it is a de-facto Palestinian Arab state. There is another Palestinian Arab entity - Hamastan, which is totally independent from either the Palestinian Jordan or the Palestinain-controlled areas. Therefore, there are already 2 Jew-free Palestinian Arab states and a Jewish state with a huge Arab population. Now they want to create another Palestinian state. It will be #3 and if they don't watch out they will have 4 or 5.

These are just the facts which in the 22 Arab dictatorships don't matter that much.

I watched that series finally and seriously the scenes in that movie are not as bas as the real videos on youtube. I say youtube because there are sites which show even worse than youtube which can't be shown on youtube.

Can you imagine what would have happened to the Israeli embasses around the world if something like that was run on the Israeli TV? We should try in the US. It is time the Turkish genocide of Armenians was fully exposed. It should be a great script for Hollywood.

no, they didn't, turkish jews were sent to polish death camps. the only country in that area that did try to save it's jewish community was Bulgaria.

WHAT?

Where do some people get their info from I seriously wonder sometimes.

The Ottomans provided refuge to Jews from Europe didn't they?

Kazahkstan did the same as well? If anything Turkic muslims have always treated Jews fairly and with respect.



Many a European nation also took in expelled Jews at various times as well. In such cases it could well be claimed to be done for national interest (imported wealth and expertise) as charitable.

Can you imagine what would have happened to the Israeli embasses around the world if something like that was run on the Israeli TV? We should try in the US. It is time the Turkish genocide of Armenians was fully exposed. It should be a great script for Hollywood.

For a person who doesn't like his countries' policies being called genocide sure love to label other's with genocide.

What's the difference between you and AKP politicians?

Big Brother US and A told us to improve our relationship with Israel. It has been published on today's newspaper just some hours ago.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/planet/12712807.asp?gid=229

For a person who doesn't like his countries' policies being called genocide sure love to label other's with genocide.

What's the difference between you and AKP politicians?

It is not just a label but a fact. The Armenians were slaughtered in Turkey.

Big Brother US and A told us to improve our relationship with Israel. It has been published on today's newspaper just some hours ago.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/planet/12712807.asp?gid=229

There should be a quid pro quo. There must be a price for the ugly Turkish policies one way or the other and, hopefully, will be. The Turkish - Syrian alliance must be taxed.

interesting article

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/turkey_turnabout_FXJ1uUFG0YTVHxMRFOOpaI

It is not just a label but a fact. The Armenians were slaughtered in Turkey.

So you take the "slaughter" of palestinians as a fact as well?

What a hypocrite!

At least those claiming such against Israel base their propaganda claims on video footages, what do you base your claims on? Balakian?

So you take the "slaughter" of palestinians as a fact as well?

What a hypocrite!

At least those claiming such against Israel base their propaganda claims on video footages, what do you base your claims on? Balakian?

Those who do not have a valid argument always resort to insults. By the way, Armenians did not want to destroy Turkey nor could they. There is no comparison. On the other hand, a Palestinian Arab entity of Hamastan based on hatred, violence and inhumanity has been trying to destroy the Jewish sovereignty. Despite all Israeli appeals the world paid absolutely NO attention when Israel was attacked over and over again. It took Israel 8 years to respond and when it finally did the world did not like it and Turkey was the most vocal entity.

Yeah, the lives of the Palestinian terrorists would be so much easier if only the Jews did not defend themselves.

^^

You are blaming people of taking a one sided pro-palestinian, anti-israeli stand on the issue yet when it comes to the armenian issue you are taking a one sided pro-armenian, anti-turkish view.

That is why I called you a hypocrite.

nuff said.

There can never be a 2-state solution.

What is your solution? The continued suffering of not only Palestinians but peace desiring Israeli's as well?

What is your solution? The continued suffering of not only Palestinians but peace desiring Israeli's as well?

My solution is a Hollywood movie about the Turkish atrocities. There is a wealthy Armenian community in Los Angeles. It is a shame that they have not yet produced a film. Hoipefully they will and Spielberg will direct it. Countries like Turkey that were involved in serial crimes must pay for their crimes at least in image.

As for the Arab - Jewish situation and Israeli - Palestinian conflict it is a dispute of the epical proportions and only the patient and tenacious will win. Israel is powerful and beyond the existential threat but it has to be patient until the dictatorial and aggressive Arab regimes modenize and evolve into democracies.

As for the Arab - Jewish situation and Israeli - Palestinian conflict it is a dispute of the epical proportions and only the patient and tenacious will win. Israel is powerful and beyond the existential threat but it has to be patient until the dictatorial and aggressive Arab regimes modenize and evolve into democracies.

that will never happen, if anything, arab regimes will become more fundamental.


at any rate, most Israelis want a 2 state solution

that will never happen, if anything, arab regimes will become more fundamental.


at any rate, most Israelis want a 2 state solution

A 2 state solution is not possible. Please read above. The only solution is for Egypt administering the terrorist-infested area of Gaza while the Hashemites administering the Palestinian Arab areas in the West. The Palestinians already have 2 independent sovereign entities: Hamastan and Jordan. In any case, the Arabs have not given up the dream of dislodging a Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East. That is why they conduct all kinds of warfares: terrorist, media, UN, demographic, etc. The anti-Semites will continue to buy their lies no matter what Israel does or does not do. Israel is challenged and will continue to be challenged on all fronts and so what? The Jewish nation has not been more blessed and happier in 2000 years than it is today. If 65 years ago the Jews had nothing today they have the powerful army, strong economy, democracy..etc compare it to what the Israeli enemies have and where they are.

The Turkish crap will blow over. Let Turkey become more a part of the East than of the West. Let it be alligned with terrorist Syria. By doing so it does not only impede the Israeli interests but also American interests and the USA will have to take care of it one way or the other. Where are the Ottomans today? Where are the ancient Egyptians today? They come and they go...but there is one constant in that equation.

What a comparison! Slaughter of Palestinians? Do you mean Hamas who slaughter Palestians, introduced crucufixions for Christian Arabs and sharia in Ghaza and shoot rockets into Israel? It took Israel an entire year with 1000 rockets hitting it until they decided to strike back. Turkey would have ERADICATED Ghaza already if they were the ones being attacked! If Israel wanted to wiupe out the Palestinians they would have done it a long time ago. Since Israel would have all the necessary instruments to do so...
Here is the holy Hamas:
I1M4eH9Kk7I :ohno:

What a comparison! Slaughter of Palestinians? Do you mean Hamas who slaughter Palestians, introduced crucufixions for Christian Arabs and sharia in Ghaza and shoot rockets into Israel? It took Israel an entire year with 1000 rockets hitting it until they decided to strike back. Turkey would have ERADICATED Ghaza already if they were the ones being attacked! If Israel wanted to wiupe out the Palestinians they would have done it a long time ago. Since Israel would have all the necessary instruments to do so...
Here is the holy Hamas:
I1M4eH9Kk7I :ohno:


http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/israel-palestine%20map.jpg

http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/israel-palestine%20map.jpg

Palestinian loss of Land? Nope, mister. Before it was the land of dozens of people, but there has NEVER been a Palestinian nation! They are Arabs, just as the Syrians, Saudis or Iraqis! Don't forget that Joran was part of the "Palestine" mandate of Britian also. So you cannot count land from BEFORE that time! They "losses" were due to the war that the Arabs STARTED! Just the same day that Israel was proclaimed, the first bombs were dropped onto Israel! This would just be like crying for "losses of German territory" if you consider Alsace, Pomerania or Silesia! This is stupid! Or do you think Germany, who was the aggressor in WWII should have all these territories back? If so, than please leave Anatolia and give it back to the Greeks! :lol:

It's not about if there was a nation or not or if the country people live in is called Israel or Palestine! You can't build a wall around the people and take ther basic human rights, even free movement and say "if israel wanted wipe out they had done so" They have DONE so!
I know a Palestine guy who told what he had to do in order to escape from there in order to study in the NL. You wouldn't believe! At least he managed it with a Jordanian passport!

My solution is a Hollywood movie about the Turkish atrocities. There is a wealthy Armenian community in Los Angeles. It is a shame that they have not yet produced a film. Hoipefully they will and Spielberg will direct it. Countries like Turkey that were involved in serial crimes must pay for their crimes at least in image.

As for the Arab - Jewish situation and Israeli - Palestinian conflict it is a dispute of the epical proportions and only the patient and tenacious will win. Israel is powerful and beyond the existential threat but it has to be patient until the dictatorial and aggressive Arab regimes modenize and evolve into democracies.

Why don't you ask for the making of a propaganda movie by hollywood about Palestinians while you're at it? After all hollywood has managed to demonise nearly every people on this earth including Americans, maybe it would be a highlight if people like spielberg did the same for Israel as well, the only country, that takes space on the media, that has not been demonised by hollywood so far despite it' news popularity.

It's not about if there was a nation or not or if the country people live in is called Israel or Palestine! You can't build a wall around the people and take ther basic human rights, even free movement and say "if israel wanted wipe out they had done so" They have DONE so!
I know a Palestine guy who told what he had to do in order to escape from there in order to study in the NL. You wouldn't believe! At least he managed it with a Jordanian passport!

why are you so conserned about palestianians? For my part I don't give a sh*t, neither do I feel inclined to!

What a comparison! Slaughter of Palestinians? Do you mean Hamas who slaughter Palestians, introduced crucufixions for Christian Arabs and sharia in Ghaza and shoot rockets into Israel? It took Israel an entire year with 1000 rockets hitting it until they decided to strike back. Turkey would have ERADICATED Ghaza already if they were the ones being attacked! If Israel wanted to wiupe out the Palestinians they would have done it a long time ago. Since Israel would have all the necessary instruments to do so...
Here is the holy Hamas:
I1M4eH9Kk7I :ohno:

yes sure, while Israel was playing ball in Lebanon, the US who gave them the green light was jumping up and down to stop us from doing the same for N.Iraq.

http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/israel-palestine%20map.jpg

these maps are lie.

a. there were no Palestinian/Jewish lands in 1946... it was all British. in this British mandate, there were Arabs, Muslim and Christians and there were Jews.
b. almost true. the ideal 2 nations of 1947... the Jews liked it. the Arabs didn't. BTW, this map is a lie; Jerusalem wasn't in the Pali side... it was UN territory.
c. the green territory is not Palestine again... it's Jordan and Egypt. Jordan.... that's reminds me of Black September. i really wonder why the Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, Saudis, Libyans, Moroccans, Turks didn't help the Palestinians... maybe because before 67' there was no such word. just maybe...
d. this map is a complete lie... by the arrangement in the negotiations, for each Israeli colony in "Palestine", Israel is willing to give the same territory in Israel... "we take 30 dunams, you take 30 dunams". BTW, Israel agreed that all the Arab cities, towns and villages in the "Triangle" will join the new Palestinian nation. the Palestinians didn't want them.


you said that the wall that Israel built was to "take their basic human rights, even free movement"... you probably forgot about the suicide bombings. people here were afraid to walk in the street, to take the bus. that's what i call "take their basic human rights, even free movement".

published today:

NX6vyT8RzMo

I see! Now the Turks are a bunch of antisemitists bcz of their Government's criticism of the Israeli government's actions!

why are you so conserned about palestianians? For my part I don't give a sh*t, neither do I feel inclined to!

Well, I can ask you why you don't care but nevertheless the reasons may be:

1) A book I read some time ago about the conflict
2) My palestine neighbour living on the campus
3) Can't see how the western world closes its eyes in that issue but telling us about a so-called genocide from the last century century that even wasn't one!
4) I can't see civilians dying

I see! Now the Turks are a bunch of antisemitists bcz of their Government's criticism of the Israeli government's actions!

and also because of this our government is becoming islamic and less democratic, you forgot that one!

Why don't you ask for the making of a propaganda movie by hollywood about Palestinians while you're at it? After all hollywood has managed to demonise nearly every people on this earth including Americans, maybe it would be a highlight if people like spielberg did the same for Israel as well, the only country, that takes space on the media, that has not been demonised by hollywood so far despite it' news popularity.

The Palestinian Arab organizations and the Palestinian governing bodies are masters at deception. If they had spent as much time and energy on developing their entity as they spend on lies to accuse Israel perhaps they would not have needed to be treated at the Israeli hospitals or use the Israeli electricity and water. Unfortunately, development is not their primary objective while growing the terrorists and haters is.

Syria is alligned with Iran and Venezuela which are virulently anti-American. Turkey is now alligned with Syria. Therefore Turkey must be congratulated for joining the anti-American block of nations. Thank you for waking up the US strategists, US Congress, US State Departmennt and the US Think Tanks as to what the real face of Turkey is.

How can anyone forget the Iraqi Information Minister? As the US forces were approaching the hotel where he was giving a press conference he was presenting a picture of victory over the American army. That was a classic Middle Eastern case. Truth, facts and reality are irrelevant while the repeated lies and fantasies are very relevant.

The question is how do you deal with the culture that rejects the truth and reality but embraces lies and fantasies?

And yet the world still buys the Palestinian spokesmen/women lies. Here we have a person who made up his/hers mind based on the tales of a Palestinian neighbor in the Nederlands. Did that person make an attempt to talk to the people of Sderot?

It's not about if there was a nation or not or if the country people live in is called Israel or Palestine! You can't build a wall around the people and take ther basic human rights, even free movement and say "if israel wanted wipe out they had done so" They have DONE so!
I know a Palestine guy who told what he had to do in order to escape from there in order to study in the NL. You wouldn't believe! At least he managed it with a Jordanian passport!

:lol: The maps shown don't say anything about the wall. And yes, I don't like these wall-plans either. But as much as I don't appreciate it - Israel is small and must find a way to protect it's citizens.

@ Turknology: I know there is much terrorism flooding into Turkey from N. Iraq. And I have never criticized Turkey for it's operations there. Anyway to me it seemed to be the best for Saddam. Turkey just did the "dirty job" and he could even complain about "invasions" in public and lay back in private to enjoy the scene... ;)

Everyone is bashing Israel. But how about the Arab countires? They leave the Palestinians in inhuman refugee camps instead of giving them citizenship and let them be part of their societies. Egypt and Syria are the worst in this concern. Just to keep the pressure on Israel for selfish political reasons, they leave Palestinians in misery who could be part of Syria's or Egypt's society for decades now! Most of the chidren of today could already consider themselves Syrians or Egypt - but this is being blocked by the selfish policies of these countries. So, why should Israel care if not even their own Arab brothers do?
If people complain about the Ghaza strip being closed. Why should ISRAEL take care of Ghaza? How about the Egyptian brothers?
Intersting that people from Turkey blame PKK as terrorists but defend Hamas - those being considered terrorists even by Saudi-Arabia and Egypt!!!

The Palestinian Arab organizations and the Palestinian governing bodies are masters at deception. If they had spent as much time and energy on developing their entity as they spend on lies to accuse Israel perhaps they would not have needed to be treated at the Israeli hospitals or use the Israeli electricity and water. Unfortunately, development is not their primary objective while growing the terrorists and haters is.

Syria is alligned with Iran and Venezuela which are virulently anti-American. Turkey is now alligned with Syria. Therefore Turkey must be congratulated for joining the anti-American block of nations. Thank you for waking up the US strategists, US Congress, US State Departmennt and the US Think Tanks as to what the real face of Turkey is.

I give some of the fault to the EU also. They should have refused a Turkey bid to join the EU from the very beginning and from the very beginning they should have offered a "privileged membership" (they should have done so also to Romania and Bulgaria IMO). Istead they have always made a fool of Turkey and took into the EU many countires which asked for joining much later than Turkey did! This is somewhat humiliating.
The best the EU could do now is to play with open card, refusing Turkey as potential full member but supporting the country's economy and give them a REAL privileged membership which means no import and export taxes! And trying to get them back as a good partner. Otherwise i see the country drifting away from Europe and become everytime closer to Syria, Iraq (they have closed their ties also) and Iran (which is also improving it's relationship with Turkey). And as sad as it is: You cannot blame the country to look for further possibilites that may be better for them - the government has the duty to do the best for it's people (or at least what they THINK is best for their people). If they see their future in the Middle East rather than in Europe, then it is their right to do so. But this should not lead to a growing anti-semitism and anti-Christian feeling. Because this IS indeed bad...

Hamas, who's talking about Hamas here, whose supporting them? Or do you want to tell me that these children and women who lost their lives were members of hamas, so they were terrorists? When Turkey fights against PKK they do so in mountainious area, mostly at the Iraqi border which is at the end "soldier vs terrorist", they don't fire randomly in populated areas and hope that there at least one or two PKK terrorist among 50 dead people!!

Hamas, who's talking about Hamas here, whose supporting them? Or do you want to tell me that these children and women who lost their lives were members of hamas, so they were terrorists? When Turkey fights against PKK they do so in mountainious area, mostly at the Iraqi border which is at the end "soldier vs terrorist", they don't fire randomly in populated areas and hope that there at least one or two PKK terrorist among 50 dead people!!

It is not about the number of deads! And yes, Hamas hides in school yards, hospitals etc. When they launch their rockets they are happy if they hit schools or hospitals. The more dead, the better. May I remind of how they celebrated the attacks on the WTC. I have got a problem seeing their "beloved" children being trained as terrorists and future shahids and mujaheddin! This is making them future suicide bombers but crying if they die in an airstrike. This is doubious and double moral!

eTGbP55HGi8
YIBNRVgq59Y :ohno:

These parents hate Israelis more than they love their children. Sorry, but I see only hatred and not a little love and nothing warm-hearted in Palestinian parents! :ohno:

If Arab terrorists launched rockets from the centre of Baghdad into Turkey to hit civil targets, so what would Turkey do? They would surely fire back, and if the terrorists hide behind children the possibilty of children dying is high. Blame the aggressors not the defenders! Golda Meir once said "I can forgive them (Arabs) for killing our children but I cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children!"

So... this thread is going nowhere. how about closing it?

There is no difference for me between the IDF and Hamas. Well IDF looks hi-tech wheras Hamas looks poor and hence more like a terrorist organization. That's the only difference and IDF manages to kill more effectively.

There is no difference for me between the IDF and Hamas. Well IDF looks hi-tech wheras Hamas looks poor and hence more like a terrorist organization. That's the only difference and IDF manages to kill more effectively.

:ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno: The most stupid comment ever! But Turkish army are no saints, remember Cyprus, Kurdistan and many other conflicts. It is de facto the ruling power - even if it lost a lot of influence since Erdogan... Turkey is still a military dictatorship and Israel the most liberal, demoratic and free country in the whole Middle East!

Why do we end up with Turkey always? I'm talking here as an individual and not as some kind of ambassador of Turkey. I do remember Cyprus and they have my support like the Turks living in Cyprus, what did the Turkish army do in Cyprus? Its occupation wasn't even illegal and what about Kurdistan and how is Turkey a dictatorship? Prove your points otherwise don't talk!

An army ignoring UN rules and international laws isn't more than just a terrorist group!

Mideast's most democrtaic and liberal state!

Is that so hi-tech that these phosphorus shells find only Hamas members in this densely inhabited neighbourhood or doesn't Israel just care about human live?
BfcHVBIyJyA&NR=1

This topic IS about Turkey. That's why. And why do you go and search the forum in order to find such a thread? And if someone from Turkey blames Israel injustly, he should at least stand it if he gets blamed back...

Mideast's most democrtaic and liberal state!

Is that so hi-tech that these phosphorus shells find only Hamas members in this densely inhabited neighbourhood or doesn't Israel just care about human live?
BfcHVBIyJyA&NR=1

Or is it that Hamas doesn't care for it's own people that they hide just in these dense areas!? Why aren't they men enough to fight at the frontier or at least launch rockets from outside the densely populated areas? They know they would be turned into ashes.

The next tiime there is an earthquake in Istanbul Turkey should ask the Hamastanis for assistance and if the swine flu spreads out let Turkey run over to its newly-found Syrian brothers. Hopefully the Syrians will provide the vaccine to Turkey rather than the USA.

The Turkish arrogance works now but we will see how it will work when a disaster strikes. We will see what Turkey does when it needs assistance vis-a-vis Cypress and other matters. After all there is not much love lost between Greece and Turkey or the Kurds, Armenians and Turks.

How often do you want to mention this earthquake thing? It is quite normal to help in such a disaster when 30.000 lost their lives and 500.000 their homes. You help your worst enemy in such a situation because human life is above EVERYTHING!!

it's lowbrow to mention that, really!

No other state in exception of Israel which is backed by the US and hence by the whole western world be able to do these things! NO SINGLE STATE ON THIS PLANET in exception of the US who fu*ks everyone

How often do you want to mention this earthquake thing? It is quite normal to help in such a disaster when 30.000 lost their lives and 500.000 their homes. You help your worst enemy in such a situation because human life is above EVERYTHING!!

it's lowbrow to mention that, really!

No other state in exception of Israel which is backed by the US and hence by the whole western world be able to do these things! NO SINGLE STATE ON THIS PLANET in exception of the US who fu*ks everyone

Said by a man whose entire opinion of a country is based on some youtube videos and "a book" he once read. Messi, you act and sound quite childish right about now. Even with Russell - the professional troll - presence here, I might have thought you had something relevant to say or at least a good mind to try to listen to the other side. But apparently that's not the case with you.

So I shoildn't listen to a guy who's from there, I shouldn't listen to a neutral book which i've read, I also shouldn't listen to the UN and to all kind of news sources and also not to youtube videos which show just the reality but to some guys on the forum who want to tell me that everything I know is nothing more a lie.. Ehmm yeah, surely!

How often do you want to mention this earthquake thing? It is quite normal to help in such a disaster when 30.000 lost their lives and 500.000 their homes. You help your worst enemy in such a situation because human life is above EVERYTHING!!

it's lowbrow to mention that, really!

No other state in exception of Israel which is backed by the US and hence by the whole western world be able to do these things! NO SINGLE STATE ON THIS PLANET in exception of the US who fu*ks everyone

The USA and Europe are just accepting more atrocities and human injustice from Turkey than from any other country in the world. They fear to lose their biggest ally in the ME and the only Muslim country they have in the NATO. The invasions into N. Iraq were just against all rules of the NATO. But I understand that this was second to safety of the own people. So this is okay for me.
But constantly attacking Greece even when Turkey was a full NATO member, was just strangest of all things I have ever seen. Turkey now has found a more subtile way to annoy Greece - by the means of Cyprus....
It is funny how you accuse the West, but at the same time want to be part of it! Isn't that a bit schizo?

Attacking Greece? Sorry but I won't answer to your posts anymore so just ignore my posts in this topic as I'll do yours! :cheers:

Well, I can ask you why you don't care but nevertheless the reasons may be:

1) A book I read some time ago about the conflict
2) My palestine neighbour living on the campus
3) Can't see how the western world closes its eyes in that issue but telling us about a so-called genocide from the last century century that even wasn't one!
4) I can't see civilians dying

The suicide attacks and the rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza, behind civilian lines, despite the pull out of Gaza by Israel, the continued support for a terrorist organisation (Hamas), the continued denial of the existance of Israel (despite this being something that will ensure that there will never be peace), the Islamification of the Palestinian cause and the reverence of the concept of martyrdom (even through terrorist actions) and the pure hate filled rhetoric which shows that there is not even an iota of wanting a peacefull solution are the main reasons why I don't care anymore. Any people so bent on pushing aside any peacefull solution and wanting to fight on untill there no longer exists any trace of Israel in the whole region (the erradication of the country of Israel) has in my eyes lost their legitimacy or right to sympathy for any reaction they get from a country who naturally does not want to fight on untill the end of time untill the other side accepts their existance, which given by the higly religous turn the Palestinian cause has taken is very unlikely, because unlike any rational political movement, within Islamism it is possible to fight on to the end of time, whatever the cost to the people, as long as it is in the name of God.

BTW, do you know that Hamas see their own people as collateral damage, and are even happy when civilians, especially babies, die, because they can use it as propaganda and those people have died for the cause of Islam, so it isn't a bad thing anyway (according to them).

Under these circumstance, how can I support them?

So I shoildn't listen to a guy who's from there, I shouldn't listen to a neutral book which i've read, I also shouldn't listen to the UN and to all kind of news sources and also not to youtube videos which show just the reality but to some guys on the forum who want to tell me that everything I know is nothing more a lie.. Ehmm yeah, surely!

You have more than once shown that you are anti-semitic in the German forum, where you attacked the Jewish forumers, and your anti-European opinions are known as well.
I just wonder why you are around in the German forum and come to the Israeli one, if you don't like them both! Is it to provoke, to stir up your boring life a bit, or to tell the whole world what a great nation of saints and perfect people you are?
Turkey must be so perfect: The Armanian genocide never took place. You do not discriminate Kurds, your HDI is not a 3rd World one, your economy did not shrink 14% (one of the highest contractions worldwide), it is not that 50% of the Turkish population would be considered poor by international standards, you have no gecekondular, you are surely completely democratic. It is surely Western propaganda published by Turkish media that 80% of all women killed are so-called "honour killings" (I ask myself what a dubious opinion it is to call a murder "honour").
The female illiteracy rate is not twice as high as the male in Turkey and Turkey is not one of the most indebted countries in the world (compared to it's population it is even worse).
Where do you live? On Mars? :ohno: Every country has it's negative sides. But I have noticed you do only show the ones of others and never mention your own!
BTW: 80% of antisemitic crimes in Germany and France are done by Muslim immigrants.

I always tell other's to be open minded about countries, and not take propaganda as fact, I say this for those parroting propaganda against Israel, and naturally I will say this for those parroting propaganda against Turkey.

On this forum I see that there are too many people who actually believe the negative propaganda against Turkey. This is really sad, I would expect people from a country who is usually the target of negative propaganda to not repeat the mostly false or highly exaggerated propaganda made against another country, I as a citizen of a country who has to fight these stereotypes, prejudices and fabricated or highly exaggereated and one sided views try not to make the same mistake against other countries, that is why I am not falling for the Hamas propaganda against Israel.

Hypocracy is the worst thing I hate, that is why I try to point it out anywhere I see it.

Messi has a one sided view on the Palestinian issue, maybe because he is being bombarded by negaitve propaganda, and yes even the secular media can also fall for this propaganda without actually investigating fully what it publishes, but in my eyes it does not justify a retaliation that spreads misinformation about my country and in my view are highly hypocritical.

^^i think most people here don't believe the propaganda against Turkey, but more giving you the feeling of how it's like being accused for something that you know is a lie.

I always tell other's to be open minded about countries, and not take propaganda as fact, I say this for those parroting propaganda against Israel, and naturally I will say this for those parroting propaganda against Turkey.

On this forum I see that there are too many people who actually believe the negative propaganda against Turkey. This is really sad, I would expect people from a country who is usually the target of negative propaganda to not repeat the mostly false or highly exaggerated propaganda made against another country, I as a citizen of a country who has to fight these stereotypes, prejudices and fabricated or highly exaggereated and one sided views try not to make the same mistake against other countries, that is why I am not falling for the Hamas propaganda against Israel.

Hypocracy is the worst thing I hate, that is why I try to point it out anywhere I see it.

Messi has a one sided view on the Palestinian issue, maybe because he is being bombarded by negaitve propaganda, and yes even the secular media can also fall for this propaganda without actually investigating fully what it publishes, but in my eyes it does not justify a retaliation that spreads misinformation about my country and in my view are highly hypocritical.


I agree with you, naturealy

I always tell other's to be open minded about countries, and not take propaganda as fact, I say this for those parroting propaganda against Israel, and naturally I will say this for those parroting propaganda against Turkey.

On this forum I see that there are too many people who actually believe the negative propaganda against Turkey. This is really sad, I would expect people from a country who is usually the target of negative propaganda to not repeat the mostly false or highly exaggerated propaganda made against another country, I as a citizen of a country who has to fight these stereotypes, prejudices and fabricated or highly exaggereated and one sided views try not to make the same mistake against other countries, that is why I am not falling for the Hamas propaganda against Israel.

Hypocracy is the worst thing I hate, that is why I try to point it out anywhere I see it.

Messi has a one sided view on the Palestinian issue, maybe because he is being bombarded by negaitve propaganda, and yes even the secular media can also fall for this propaganda without actually investigating fully what it publishes, but in my eyes it does not justify a retaliation that spreads misinformation about my country and in my view are highly hypocritical.

Well actually we all now that most things spread in the media are half as "hot" as it is written or broadcast. Otherwise people wouldn't read/watch it!
But what I wrote was to show Messi how onesided and mega-exaggerated he is and how I (we?) do feel about his accusations!
And this thread was never opened to bash Turkey, it was rather to show a fact that Erdogans policy is worsening the situation of Turkey - at least for the "strange" elements who live there. But he doesn't owe them anything. He is responsible for the majority of people. And surely does what he thinks is the best for them. And we all know that many politicians are often wrong with what they think is the best for the people/country! ;)
But this is not only the case in Turkey, it is a worldwide phenomenon. That's why being politician you are being attacked and bashed in ervery single country in the world! :lol:

How often do you want to mention this earthquake thing? It is quite normal to help in such a disaster when 30.000 lost their lives and 500.000 their homes. You help your worst enemy in such a situation because human life is above EVERYTHING!!

it's lowbrow to mention that, really!

No other state in exception of Israel which is backed by the US and hence by the whole western world be able to do these things! NO SINGLE STATE ON THIS PLANET in exception of the US who fu*ks everyone

If Turkey wants to be an enemy of the USA and it obviously heading that path it should fend for itself in times of crisis. Rely on Syria and Palestinian Arabs. There is nothing honorable in helping an enemy who wants to destroy or kill you.

I always tell other's to be open minded about countries, and not take propaganda as fact, I say this for those parroting propaganda against Israel, and naturally I will say this for those parroting propaganda against Turkey.

On this forum I see that there are too many people who actually believe the negative propaganda against Turkey. This is really sad, I would expect people from a country who is usually the target of negative propaganda to not repeat the mostly false or highly exaggerated propaganda made against another country, I as a citizen of a country who has to fight these stereotypes, prejudices and fabricated or highly exaggereated and one sided views try not to make the same mistake against other countries, that is why I am not falling for the Hamas propaganda against Israel.

Hypocracy is the worst thing I hate, that is why I try to point it out anywhere I see it.

Messi has a one sided view on the Palestinian issue, maybe because he is being bombarded by negaitve propaganda, and yes even the secular media can also fall for this propaganda without actually investigating fully what it publishes, but in my eyes it does not justify a retaliation that spreads misinformation about my country and in my view are highly hypocritical.

It is not about Messi. Unfortunately, there are plenty of Messis in the Turkish government. Having visited Turkey 4 times I can attest that it a beautiful country with spectacular sites and landmarks. However, the Turkish anti-American direction must have a price tag. Hopefully, the US organizations are prepairing one.

Russel, I can very well agree with you!

Russel, I can very well agree with you!

Well, Israel keeps helping the Palestinian Arabs time and again. What country in the world would supply an enemy with food during a military confrontation? What country in the world would suppy water, electricity, medicine, etc to an enemy that is forcing its citizens into the shelters? The list of the Israeli assistance to Palestinians can go on forever.

The world has gone nuts in blaming Israel for defending itself. The US however, must remember that an attack on Israel is a prelude to an attack on the US and the American interests. They were blowing up the buses in Tel Aviv and than they blew up the WTC in New York. Turkey started its ugly course with blaming Israel and than stabbed the US alligning itself with Syria. Israel first, America second.

Well, Israel keeps helping the Palestinian Arabs time and again. What country in the world would supply an enemy with food during a military confrontation? What country in the world would suppy water, electricity, medicine, etc to an enemy that is forcing its citizens into the shelters? The list of the Israeli assistance to Palestinians can go on forever.

The world has gone nuts in blaming Israel for defending itself. The US however, must remember that an attack on Israel is a prelude to an attack on the US and the American interests. They were blowing up the buses in Tel Aviv and than they blew up the WTC in New York. Turkey started its ugly course with blaming Israel and than stabbed the US alligning itself with Syria. Israel first, America second.

What made me even more angry than the governments were the ignorants running around with stickers saying "free Palestine" which doesn't mean anything else than "wipe out Israel". I think all these teens didn't really know it. Ignorant teens without proper opinions.
Israel even took in civilians from Gaza and treated them in the country's hospitals. When it comes to the conflict it is always "the bad imperialist Israelis" and "the poor persecuted and oppressed Pallies"... :ohno:
I was quite happy however, to see our chancellor said "Israel has all rights to defend itself and it is not to us to condemn anything!"
Even the Saudis blamed Hamas for all that happened to them, saying they have provoked that operation. But anyway the Saudis always change their mind within 5 minutes!

I totally lost track on this thread, it's kinda hard having two threads about the same thing

It is not about Messi. Unfortunately, there are plenty of Messis in the Turkish government. Having visited Turkey 4 times I can attest that it a beautiful country with spectacular sites and landmarks. However, the Turkish anti-American direction must have a price tag. Hopefully, the US organizations are prepairing one.

Ofcourse there are, why do you think I've been ranting about the current Turkish government ever since I got here?

But when it comes to anti-americanism, well the American government chose to support the current government in Turkey, despite the opposition from secularists, they wanted to show it as some model of some moderate whatever Islamic government.

The US has been screwing with us for far too long, they reap what they sow. Secularists in Turkey have been yelling; moderate or not moderate Turkey is not a Muslim country, yet the USA has been trying to make Turkey into a model "Muslim" democracy.

If the US and the EU let us be, without their stupid interventon, the Islamists would be by now rotting away in some dark prison cell.

Ofcourse there are, why do you think I've been ranting about the current Turkish government ever since I got here?

But when it comes to anti-americanism, well the American government chose to support the current government in Turkey, despite the opposition from secularists, they wanted to show it as some model of some moderate whatever Islamic government.

The US has been screwing with us for far too long, they reap what they sow. Secularists in Turkey have been yelling; moderate or not moderate Turkey is not a Muslim country, yet the USA has been trying to make Turkey into a model "Muslim" democracy.

If the US and the EU let us be, without their stupid interventon, the Islamists would be by now rotting away in some dark prison cell.

Why are the national problems of Turkey the fault of the US? No other country in the world helps other countries like the US. Yet, we are blamed when we help out and when we don't. Other unproductive, corrupt, undemocratic regimes always seek an excuse. If you don't want the American interference don't come to the US for help or money.

^^

I'M not saying it is the US' fault. I'm saying that without the open support of the US and EU, the AKP government could never have been able to last so long or act so freely.

And PS: likewise, don't forget that it was the US which forced Israel into accepting Hamas' taking part in the Palestinian elections.

He means without the new reforms we would be able to kick their asses out of the government but now we must listen to majority's voice like in any other democracy.

Well, I can ask you why you don't care but nevertheless the reasons may be:
3) Can't see how the western world closes its eyes in that issue but telling us about a so-called genocide from the last century century that even wasn't one!
4) I can't see civilians dying

3) The world closes it's eyes? i don't think that the global ever covered war anywhere like they covered anything that Israel invlolved there.
even the U.N is standing on their back feets when Israel even sneeze on Palestinians. they don't do it when Hamas sending terrorists to blow themselfs in buses, schools, malls, market etc.

have you ever heard condemnation of your country of Hamas or Hezbollah acts? i didn't.
4) not completely right. i didn't see you saying or care when Israeli civlilans got killed in terror attacks, the war with Lebanon and the War In Gaza.
so your sentence should be " I can't see muslim and arab civilians dying. fuck the others".

Hamas, who's talking about Hamas here, whose supporting them? Or do you want to tell me that these children and women who lost their lives were members of hamas, so they were terrorists? When Turkey fights against PKK they do so in mountainious area, mostly at the Iraqi border which is at the end "soldier vs terrorist", they don't fire randomly in populated areas and hope that there at least one or two PKK terrorist among 50 dead people!!

Turkish army killed dozens and even hundreds of civilians in Iraqi border. PKK were only part of the deads. i don't know if you know it and trying to hide it like your gov. or you don't know it becous your government doing a good job.

How often do you want to mention this earthquake thing? It is quite normal to help in such a disaster when 30.000 lost their lives and 500.000 their homes. You help your worst enemy in such a situation because human life is above EVERYTHING!!

it's lowbrow to mention that, really!


i want to see how will you act when you helping someone who spits in your face few years later.

^^i think most people here don't believe the propaganda against Turkey, but more giving you the feeling of how it's like being accused for something that you know is a lie.

exactly. Turkey blaming us in things we didn't do. Israelis would never talk about Kurds, Cypress and Armenian genocide (which i think we should talk. even if the diplomatic relations was ok) if the turks wouldn't talk about us.

He means without the new reforms we would be able to kick their asses out of the government but now we must listen to majority's voice like in any other democracy.

First of all they are not the majority (they never represented the majority of the Turkish people), thanks to the flawed election system they just manage to get a disproprtionate number of seats in parliament.

second, democracy should be able to protect itself from those who do not believe in democracy and democracy should not be used to protect those who aim to abolish democracy. Look at the example of Heider and Austria.

Third, the democratic system in Turkey itself is flawed, we do not have a proper system of checks and balances, we do not have full independance of judiciary, we do not have a strong institution like the Supreme Court in the USA, this is why the AKP is gradually sliding into a dictatorship which will lead to an Iran style mullocracy (we can rename our country Fettullahistan after that under the leadership of dictator Erdoğan and the grand sheik ul Islam Fettullah Gülen). This is why, the ony institution maybe left standing, the army, stepping in may be a breach of democracy, but it would also save our democratic future from total annihilation by Islamist forces.

3Turkish army killed dozens and even hundreds of civilians in Iraqi border. PKK were only part of the deads. i don't know if you know it and trying to hide it like your gov. or you don't know it becous your government doing a good job.


This is where the problem lies, hundreds of civilians were not killed, if they had been killed it would have been all over the major news headlines of the international media. The Turkish operations in Northern Iraq both in terms of duration and in terms of scale and magnitude cannot be compared to Israeli operations in Gaza, the West Bank or even Lebanon. I am just stating this because you cannot make a situation what it is not so that you can use it as a counter argument.

The situation of Turkey and Northern Iraq is completely different, the only resemblance being that it was a counter terrorism operation.

To Russel:

you seem very annoyed about current Turkish-Syrian relations, I'm not such a fan of it myself either, but:

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Saturday that talks were underway between two U.S. representatives and Syrian officials in Damascus.

The Obama administration's decision to send Jeffrey Feltman, the top State Department envoy on the Mideast, and Daniel Shapiro from the White House to Syria was the most significant sign yet that it is ready to improve relations with the Syrian government after years of tension. The two American officials held talks with Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem shortly after arriving in the Syrian capital Saturday. But it was not clear whether they would meet with President Bashar Assad during the visit, which was ignored by state-run newspapers in an indication of Damascus' cautious approach.

Clinton also said President Barack Obama will visit Turkey in the "next month or so." At a news conference with Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan, she said Obama had asked her to deliver the message that he would visit soon and said the two allies will consult on the safest, most effective way to withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq.

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/obama-outreach-tour-hits-syria-and-turkey

Do you think it is a coincidence that Turkey is suddenly moving towards greater cooperation with Syria after this?

I have also noticed many people are not fammiliar with Turkish operations in Northern Iraq. I hope this will help:

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11781557&Itemid=102

This is where the problem lies, hundreds of civilians were not killed, if they had been killed it would have been all over the major news headlines of the international media. The Turkish operations in Northern Iraq both in terms of duration and in terms of scale and magnitude cannot be compared to Israeli operations in Gaza, the West Bank or even Lebanon. I am just stating this because you cannot make a situation what it is not so that you can use it as a counter argument.

The situation of Turkey and Northern Iraq is completely different, the only resemblance being that it was a counter terrorism operation.

that's becouse the Turkish gov. doing a good job by hide the facts. but the internet is full of that.

that's becouse the Turkish gov. doing a good job by hide the facts. but the internet is full of that.

sorry, but show me one news headline from a respectable international media organisation, CNN, Guardian, Times, WSJ, etc, whichever one that backs your claims.

Unless you are saying the Turkish government has found a way to block international media organisations from reporting what you claim that is.

Anyway read the link I provided.

PS: Maybe we can compare Turkey's operations to Israel's from international media sources, but I don't want to do that because the two took place under very different circumstances and it would be unfair to Israel.

To Russel:

you seem very annoyed about current Turkish-Syrian relations, I'm not such a fan of it myself either, but:



http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/obama-outreach-tour-hits-syria-and-turkey

Do you think it is a coincidence that Turkey is suddenly moving towards greater cooperation with Syria after this?

You are correct. We know very little as what is going on behind the scenes. The media is heating up emotions to increase the ratings. That is how the media makes money. Yet, there is more to it. Erdogans body language and a subsequent walk out in Switzerland did not appear staged. It looked real and a prelude as what was coming.

In any case we will see how the US reacts. Cancelling a drill to slap Israel was another anti-American stab. With the Turkish move toward the East the US must act accordingly. Syria harbors Hamas, supports Hezbollah and is alligned with Iran, Venezuela, etc. It is as anti-Israel as it is anti-American.

You are correct. We know very little as what is going on behind the scenes. The media is heating up emotions to increase the ratings. That is how the media makes money. Yet, there is more to it. Erdogans body language and a subsequent walk out in Switzerland did not appear staged. It looked real and a prelude as what was coming.

In any case we will see how the US reacts. Cancelling a drill to slap Israel was another anti-American stab. With the Turkish move toward the East the US must act accordingly. Syria harbors Hamas, supports Hezbollah and is alligned with Iran, Venezuela, etc. It is as anti-Israel as it is anti-American.

Erdoğan is a hypocrite, the way he is carrying out Turkish foreign policy, believe me, disturbs me very much.

Erdoğan is a hypocrite, the way he is carrying out Turkish foreign policy, believe me, disturbs me very much.

:applause::applause: :applause: :applause: :cheers:

Erdoğan is a hypocrite, the way he is carrying out Turkish foreign policy, believe me, disturbs me very much.

Unlike you I am not anti-Islamic. From my perspective the religion of Islam is a great religion. I am only against those who use Islam to control, breed hatred and violence, cause havoc around the world, cheat and lie to advance their ugly agenda.

Having been to Turkey a number of times and visiting the stunning mosques of Istanbul, the Turkish islands, the incredible areas of Marmaris and Bodrum it is sad that a country with a rich history and an incredible scenery would allign itself with some of the worst organizations and leaders of the world.

^^

I'm anti religionist. A government acting not out of logic, rationalism and national interests, but out of religously motivated emotions is something I cannot and will not accept.

Religion belongs to the individual, for the individual, and it should stay there.

Religion belongs to the individual, for the individual, and it should stay there.

well said!

^^

I'm anti religionist. A government acting not out of logic, rationalism and national interests, but out of religously motivated emotions is something I cannot and will not accept.

Religion belongs to the individual, for the individual, and it should stay there.

Disagree! The Turkish government is not illogical. Turkey, Iran, Syria, North Korea, Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, Hezbollah, Hamastan or the Talibans all have there own logic. According to the Turkish thinking moving away from the West toward the East is in the best interest of Turkey. Therefore, it is now up to the US to raise the cost of Turkish logic.

^^

You like to argue for arguments sake don't you :)

Anyway just to keep you entertained; there is a difference between logical thinking and emotional thinking. In logical thinking you base your actions on decisions that will give you actual benefit, in emotional thinking you do not take into account actual benefits but carry out actions based on decisions that will give you emotional benefits.

For example, for Turkish national interests, relations with Israel are a logical step, emotions are set aside and actual benefits are taken into account. Breaking relations with Israel on the other hand is an emotional step, the motivating factor is not actual benefits but emotional gains, like feeling good about being a part of Muslim solidarity and supporting one side against another just because one side is Muslim and the other side is not. But despite that I don't think the US will react like you think it would, like I stated before, the US itself has started to hand out the olive branch to Syria, as well a Iran ;)

Is the US after some actual benefit behind this, I don't know, but it is probably so, which raises the question, maybe a secondary motivation for Turkey downing relations with Israel, and upping relations with Iran and Syria is a part of extended current US policy in the region, who knows...

Once again I disagree. Emotions do play a role but in this case the Turkish move was a highly calculated move. When Turkey moves away from Israel it moves away from the American, Israeli, Indian alliance. Apparently, from the Turkish perspective the strong bond with the US/Israel is not bringing enough benefits. So, the US has 2 choices, ether reward Turkey for its betrayal so it moves back into the American/Western European fold of punish it making it very expensive. The Turkish actions must generate an American reaction.

Read today in the paper that mister Erdogan accuses Liberman for wanting to nuke Gaza................. holy crap whats next!! what an Rtard

And he also critisized the West for the way they're behaving towards Iran. Now, this is something I agree with.

Turknology, point of view and logic are not the same thing. Your point of you is that its beneficial for Turkey to be pals with Israel, this isn't necessarily 'logical'. Someone else's point of view would be that it's in Turkey's interest to be pals with its important big neighbours rather than with a tiny state whose friendship also tends to alienate the said neighbours.

I think he and Ahmadinejad are competing in a who's cooler competition..

Next: Turkey will delcare war on Israel.
Then maybe, Turkish military will overthrown that crazy man and restore peace and alliance with Israel again.

...?


Shit. What's wrong with Turkish PM!?!

Where are Turks? They should protest against Erdogan before it out of the hands.

Where are Turks? They should protest against Erdogan before it out of the hands.
Mainly in Germany and Austria.

Mainly in Germany and Austria.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
But these are his strongest supporters...

Next: Turkey will delcare war on Israel.
Then maybe, Turkish military will overthrown that crazy man and restore peace and alliance with Israel again.

...?


Shit. What's wrong with Turkish PM!?!

Where are Turks? They should protest against Erdogan before it out of the hands.

I think the Turkish military is already lost to Erdogan also. I remember Necmettin Erbakan who was half as aggressive. He was kicked out of his position by the military - but he was stupid and a brain-amputated. Erdogan is smarter, he wouldn't act the way he acts if he wasn't sure how the military reacts!

^^

The military's hands are tied down by the EU. When Erbakan was in charge Turkey was not an EU accession member, but it is now, thus any move by the military will end the accession process, and the military does not want to take the blame for such a thing.

^^

The military's hands are tied down by the EU. When Erbakan was in charge Turkey was not an EU accession member, but it is now, thus any move by the military will end the accession process, and the military does not want to take the blame for such a thing.

Turkey is in this accession process for decades now. This has never stopped the army of doing anything.

Like invading foreign lands for example.

Like invading foreign lands for example.

... No comment... :D ;)

I meant to say liberating; combating 'terrorists' too.

When I expect to have a debate, I expect the people I am debating with to have some knowledge about what is being debated.

I guess I expect too much...

You mean you expect people to acknowledge that you're right and share your point of view?

no, I mean people actually knowing what they are talking about.

Well it was a fact, that Saddam Hussein fought the Kurds with poisonous gas. They were perscuted as in no other country in the ME. But that is exactly the reason why I think they should have a country on their own. But not in the dimensions that THEY want. An independant Kurdistan would be just another 3rd World country without infrastructure and base for wealth. So I think that a Kurdistan in N. Iraq would be the best solution. They would have some oil (not much but enough to build up an infrastructure) and the country is messed up anyway. Even though I think some of the territory should be taken from Turkey also.
As I have read in a book, the Kurds were promissed an own country by the Turks if they helped to kick out and kill the Armenians. This was never kept. And now Kurds are waiting for their blood money reward.

Turkey is in this accession process for decades now. This has never stopped the army of doing anything.

Since 2005.

Well it was a fact, that Saddam Hussein fought the Kurds with poisonous gas. They were perscuted as in no other country in the ME. But that is exactly the reason why I think they should have a country on their own. But not in the dimensions that THEY want. An independant Kurdistan would be just another 3rd World country without infrastructure and base for wealth. So I think that a Kurdistan in N. Iraq would be the best solution. They would have some oil (not much but enough to build up an infrastructure) and the country is messed up anyway. Even though I think some of the territory should be taken from Turkey also.
As I have read in a book, the Kurds were promissed an own country by the Turks if they helped to kick out and kill the Armenians. This was never kept. And now Kurds are waiting for their blood money reward.

Where do you get your facts from? Read about Treaty of Sevres! "If you kill Armenians. we'll give you some land" Sure!

It was planned by the Allies of the WW1 that occupied Turkey after WW1 and was part of the Treaty of Sevres (1920)

Treaty of Lausanne (1923) was the official annulment of the Treaty of Sevres which shaped the borders of modern Turkey.

Where do you get your facts from? Read about Treaty of Sevres! "If you kill Armenians. we'll give you some land" Sure!

It was planned by the Allies of the WW1 that occupied Turkey after WW1 and was part of the Treaty of Sevres (1920)

Treaty of Lausanne (1923) was the official annulment of the Treaty of Sevres which shaped the borders of modern Turkey.

Well, there is plenty of literature on the topic (Armenian genocide) available in France, Brazil and Italy. And I like to buy local literature when I go abroad.

Since 2005.

No. The TALKS take place since 2005. But Turkey plans to join the EU for a much longer time! The first bid was made on April the 14th 1987. It won't happen anyway. So, why bothering about it?

1)Negotiations began in 2005 and that's all about. Before that day Turkey was not supposed to adopt any EU regulation.

2)My room is also full of books about the so-called Armenian genocide but that's not the topic we are talking about. We are talking about by whom and why eastern Turkey was promised to Kurds, aren't we?