Florida's top 10, 2003 metro estimates

1. Miami-Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach = 5,288,796
+281,232

2. Tampa-St. Petersburg = 2,531,908
+135,911

3. Orlando = 1,802,986
+158,425

4. Jacksonville = 1,202,900
+80,150

5. Sarasota-Bradenton = 633,597
+43,638

6. Daytona Beach = 530,869
+37,694

7. Lakeland-Winter Haven = 510,458
+26,534

8. Brevard County (Melbourne) = 505,711
+29,481

9. Fort Myers = 492,210
+51,322

10. Pensacola = 428,978
+16,825

link: http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/counties/tables/CO-EST2003-01-12.pdf

Why do they include West Palm Beach in the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale metro? Doesn't that mean the whole area spans over a hundred miles? If so, these numbers are WAY misleading.

Miami to West Palm Beach is all developed, if you take i95 from wpb to the end, its all developed

So, with the population growth (like +100,000 etc.), over what period is that growth? Over the past year, since the last census etc?

^sorry, its the amount of growth since the 2000 census. The estimates are for July 1, 2003.

The Miami number is a CSA number, not an MSA number. But regardless, the place basically is a 100 mile stretch of urbanity.

^Since when did the Miami number become a CSA? Everything I've seen so far, since the 2000 census, has recognized Miami-Dade, Broward, & Palm Beach Counties as one single MSA. Do any Miami forumers know any more information regarding this subject?

thought I just saw that over in a thread at SSP? I could be wrong, or perhaps the thread was wrong?

So if these were done properly, it would look like this

Tampa-St. Pete - Sarasota - Lakeland 3,415,495
Orlando-Melbourne-Daytona - about 2,700,000 (when you take a few people away from the edges)

ok i did a project on urban aresa for school so i had to reaserch this.The Miami metropolitan area used to be only Miami-Fort lauderdale until last year. every so often the federal government takes a look at the urban and rural areas in the country and on some of their ballots during election day they ask if that rea would like to become part of a larger one. For years the federal gov. has put that issue to the Citizens of west palm beach and they have repeatedly said no they wouldn't like to become part of the Miami metropolitan area. Last year, im not sure if it was during the elections or something else a majority of the people in West palm beach Said that they would join. So therefore The new Metropolitan area is the Miami- Fort lauderdale- West palm beach Metropolitan area.With the addition of this area Miami passes Atlanta and Houston and becomes the about tenth largest metropolitan area in the country with the core being the City of Miami. so unless the Federal government designates any area as a Metro area the Tampa-St. Pete - Sarasota - Lakeland 3,415,495 and theOrlando-Melbourne-Daytona - about 2,700,000 don't exist.

Yea, and?

What I said was:
"So if these were done properly, it would look like this"

If they ever built some commuter rail, those areas would become part of the metro within a decade.

haha, dont worry smiley one day, there will be a tampa-orlando metro with over 6 million and miami wont be in the lead anymore :wallbash:

but for now :cheers:

Actually, I don't really care if Miami is in the lead. I don't think it will ever lose the lead.

I just don't like the way the Government does the Metro area concept based mostly on commuters. You guys should know that, I've been bitching about it for years.

Tampa-Orlando will never be one metro, even if the sprawl reaches continuously between both cities.

Orlando may pass Tampa in twenty years or so, but Miami will always be on top.

so it will never be Orlampa???

but if the sprawl is continuos, just like miami-wpb, look at how philly is in nyc in some estimates,

Orlampa is coming, whether or not the census recognizes it. But by then there will probably be sprawl all the way from Miami to Daytona, across I-4 to Tampa Bay, and down the coast to Naples. What will they call that metro area?

FLORIDA.

lol i dont know, also
will the everglades be destructed with miami sprawling west and west and west.

lol i live closer to everglades national park than to downtown miami,

The everglades will be safe because it is a natural park so the Suburbs cant grow ne more, that is why there is so much high-rise construction in miami because the only way to build is up and that is why by 2025 there will be a building over 1000 feet.

hopefully we will have a 1000 footer before that!

I doubt it, but maybe. THere is still a lot of land with one and two story buildings on it that can be used.

I think part of the reclassification by the Federal Government has a lot to do with Palm Beach County folding their transit system into a regional, tri-county transportation authority, that oversees the Tri-Rail commuter system, PalmTran (Palm Beach County), the "B" (Broward County) and Metro-Dade Transit. Palm Beach initially balked at the idea, because while its attractive to have about 5.5 million people collectively pooling their tax bases for federal money, Miami-Dade wanted to have control over the new regional transportation "czar", which didn’t sit well with either Broward or Palm Beach. When Miami-Dade changed that, they went forward with the plan.

But the federal and state governments have been pushing for the Tri-County classification for years, because it truly is one massive urban agglomeration. In addition, all three counties (and their respective capital cities—Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach) share common demographics (economically, ethnically, socially), share a common building code and even building style heritage, and each are dependent upon the same water supply.

Exempting a seven year period away (college, first job) in New York, I’ve lived in South Florida all my life. And while they’re used to be a separation, or a tapering off of development between Broward County and Palm Beach County, that separation no longer exists. You have to drive VERY FAR NORTH to even begin to see a decline in development…PAST Palm Beach County now, whereas previously, the Sawgrass Mills Mall about halfway through Broward was the cut-off.

To give you some perspective, I was born in Miami in 1974. We lived in North Miami Beach until I was 5…and then we moved to the "boonies" of Kendall. Flash forward to 1992 and Kendall is not longer "removed", but rather urban…hundreds of thousands of people. (So many people that they are building this "Downtown Kendall" project…the "boonies" my arse!)

Then the hurricane came, and Broward absorbed a slew of Miami-Dade refugees with insurance money…fueling a massive land and population boom in Broward (and sadly, causing a significant percentage of Miami-Dade’s middle-class to vanish overnight…but strangely, not a drop in population.

Now, Broward County is built out, BOTH Miami-Dade and Broward have gone tremendously vertical and remarkably dense, and West Palm Beach is feeling the boom.

I moved back to Broward in 1998. I moved to a suburb called Coral Springs. In the past seven years, I’ve seen Coral Springs go from a bunch of houses with a few strip malls, to a city where they are building a New Urban downtown (because they are out of space). My parents moved to Parkland in 1994, which had no commercial development. Now, there’s a Sam’s Club and much, much more. The development is truly staggering…up and down the three counties.

In fact, in the future, "South Florida" may be much, much bigger.
Check out http://www.soflo.org, where their report basically states that in 25 years, "South Florida MSA" will not only be Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties, but Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Monroe, Martin, St. Lucie and Indian River counties. And the report is quite compelling in presenting the commonalties between the counties…and how those likenesses will only intensify with time.
(this article is great too…and is like an abridged version of the report: http://www.catanese.org/articles/04_June_Florida_Trend.htm)

I’m not sure the other regions in Florida will have this happen (and certainly not to the level that it is happening in South Florida).

I lived in both Tampa and Orlando, and frequently business trip (and Disney) there. Yes, its getting more built-up, particularly in the Orlando area. But there’s still a tremendous amount of empty, natural land on the 1-4 corridor. (Go to Polk County for an example. Their rate of growth is significantly lower—both in numbers and percentages—and it will take them 50-70 YEARS to even reach the Broward County of the 1980’s!) And, the region doesn’t really "share" culture the way that South Florida does. There will be a large Orlando MSA, and there will be a significant Tampa-Saint Pete MSA, but I don’t really think "Orlampa" is in the cards for a while. They are just culturally different.

This is not a dig on the rest of the state, nor a statement of glee regarding South Florida’s increasing size and preeminence in state and national standings. I actually think that the three counties waited too long to organize themselves, and while I’m excited that they have all embrace New Urbanism as a way to maintain growth momentum, I think that they waited too long, and the retooling of the mega-polis from car-centric to transit-centric, from tropical suburb to swamp-urbia is proving to be more challenging then had they established these guidelines in the past. And I miss the days when Miami (which I love) wasn’t the Detroit of the Tropics (in Broward, there is a sizable middle-class, in Miami-Dade you are either filthy rich, stinking poor…or one of the three-to-five middle-classers.)

But, I pay attention to this stuff, so I thought you should know!

I am not convicned of Orlampa but I think that if WPB is connected to Miami then Sarasota is connected to Tampa. It is closer. It has the same tv, uses the same airport quite a bit, and people go between them all the time.

As for culture, I don't think WPB has very much in common with Miami at all - though it is a lot like Broward. I think they stuck them all together because Broward is in the middle and blends WPB and Miami. Otherwise they are way different.

Yeah, it doesnt make any sense to me that Sarasota and Lakeland arent considered part of tampa metro.

In response to:
"I am not convicned of Orlampa but I think that if WPB is connected to Miami then Sarasota is connected to Tampa. It is closer. It has the same tv, uses the same airport quite a bit, and people go between them all the time.

As for culture, I don't think WPB has very much in common with Miami at all - though it is a lot like Broward. I think they stuck them all together because Broward is in the middle and blends WPB and Miami. Otherwise they are way different."

Responding to the first point, when you drive south from Tampa-Saint Petersburg, is it a continual agglomeration of growth, urbanity and urban sprawl? Nope. It reverts back to nature for the hour and 1/2 on I-75. In the second place, Sarasota and Tampa-Saint Petersburg have entirely different cultures and demographics. Using the same television providers only means that Sarasota has yet to grow enough to support its own media infrastructure. And just because you don’t use the Sarasota airport, doesn’t mean that the residents of Sarasota don’t! Tampa’s just happens to be more comprehensive in terms of the routes…and wow, awesome airport too! The point being is that MSA/CSA classification is about more than one dimensional qualities, and that while I respect your opinion, it is not backed up in fact…thereby making your assumption more of a personal wish than an urban movement.

In terms of the second point, that Miami and West Palm Beach don’t have the same culture, I strongly disagree. Read the reports indicated and you’ll see that I have based my cultural assumptions on data, which indicates the similarities: three counties, all urban, all diverse in terms of population ethnicity…and so on and so forth. It’s not just me calling it a MSA. It’s the feds, the academics and so and so forth…all calling it an MSA. Even many of the residents, through the counties, refer to where they live as "South Florida." I’ll concede that Fort Lauderdale acts as a kind of blend from the Miami extreme to the West Palm, but that doesn’t remove West Palm from the MSA. Long Island, for example, shares a common culture with the rest of the New York City metro, even though it’s missing the walking city thing and the skyscraper thing. The same can be said for L.A. and the O.C. Or Tampa and Saint Petersburg. But Sarasota? I feel that you are reaching there (and I also think that Sarasotians would rather suck on a urinal cake than associate their metro with Tampa’s. That’s not a dig on Tampons…just a…you guessed it, difference of culture.)

In response to:
"Yeah, it doesnt make any sense to me that Sarasota and Lakeland arent considered part of tampa metro."
See above for Sarasota and apply to Lakeland. How anybody in Polk County can honestly look at their locale and suggest that Lakeland, Winter Haven and the rest are part of this over-built, nature-removed urban agglomeration is beyond me. Polk County is not even remotely "urban." In fact, the only part of Lakeland that even nears city status is that downtown lake thing. I’ve taken main roads under farm silos there. Y’all aren’t exactly in danger of building out. And the same thing is true for Tampa. Once you leave the limits of Tampa-Saint Pete, you’re in the country again. I have two friends who live there…and they LOVE this about Tampa: the immediate jolt from suburbia to nothingness. That is NOT an MSA.

And, come to think of it, Polk County is mostly WASP, mostly native born or southern transplant and in primarily agri-business or phosphate-based. Tampa/St. Pete is majority WASP, but significant minority African-American, Cuban and others, is service, factory, or tourist based, and has a huge amount of land to fill in before they reach the limits of even Hillsborough County, let alone bleed into the rest.

Sorry guys. No dice. Theories are good. But they aren't facts.

But Sarasota? I feel that you are reaching there (and I also think that Sarasotians would rather suck on a urinal cake than associate their metro with Tampa’s. That’s not a dig on Tampons…just a…you guessed it, difference of culture.)

All I will say is stick to what you know. You obviously know little of the west coast.
http://www.tampabay.org/

As for the rest of your argument, I find it to be like trying to argue with the "If the gloves don't fit, you must aquit." argument. My main response is, "whatever. You go with it, big guy."

Once you leave the limits of Tampa-Saint Pete, you’re in the country again. I have two friends who live there…and they LOVE this about Tampa: the immediate jolt from suburbia to nothingness. That is NOT an MSA.

Just one more dig at your rank idiocy - I guess you never went from Ft. Lauderdale to alligator alley.

Wow. You’re taking offense, and I truly didn’t think it was written offensively. Ah well. I’m sorry that you feel that way.

The alligator alley comment was funny though…not only because it reveals that you have no understanding of MSA’s, but how little you know South Florida. If we could, we would completely drain the Everglades (most of Western South Florida is just that) and our MSA would encompass Naples (already people commute from Naples to Broward…weird.) The Everglades are protected land…we CAN’T build on it, unlike most of the area surrounding Tampa, which is southern farmland.

Again, my intent wasn’t to offend, merely inform. That’s why I posted the links, that’s why I support New Urbanism, and that’s why I’m flabbergasted at the response.

Let’s take a trip:
Drive west from USF to Saint Pete. Consistently populated and urban? Yep. Consistently sharing a common ground across the board? Yep. Hence…its an MSA.

Drive east from Tampa to Lakeland and then Orlando.
Consistently populated and urban? Not by a long shot. Consistently sharing a common ground across the board? Nope. Hence…its not an MSA.

Drive south from Tampa to Sarasota…or south from Saint Pete to Sarasota.
Consistently populated and urban? Nope. Consistently sharing a common ground across the board? Nope. Hence…its not an MSA.

But, because you can’t see how they can’t be joined together…on the basis of that "fact", you’re right! It IS an MSA! Orlampasota! Maybe using this new logic we could add Houston’s metro to the mix, They share a body of water, after all.

"Drive east from Tampa to Lakeland and then Orlando.
Consistently populated and urban? Not by a long shot. Consistently sharing a common ground across the board? Nope. Hence…its not an MSA."

Well, I don't much care about Orlando, but to Lakeland, for the most part yes - unless you just drive on the interstate - tehre may be some open fields, but not many. IF you knew the area you would know this.

"Drive south from Tampa to Sarasota…or south from Saint Pete to Sarasota.
Consistently populated and urban? Nope. Consistently sharing a common ground across the board? Nope. Hence…its not an MSA."

On the Tampa path, maybe 5 or ten miles without development - once again not necessarily right on the interstate.

On the St. PEte path, not counting the Skyway, if you get off on 19, maybe 2-3 miles. Once again, if you know the area, you would know this.

If you were not trying to offend, you have an odd way of behaving.

Finally, the simply fact that something is built up is irrelevant. Place may not be built up for reasons that are not readily apparent, like NW Hillsborough has restrictions, but you cross into Pasco and there it is.

MOreover, It is built from Wilmington Delaware to NYC, but they are not the same area and if you told someone from Philly they were . . . well, I jsut wish you would.

First off, I know the Tampa Bay area extraordinarily well. A great deal of my income comes from there, and I am quite grateful to it. It is, by anyone’s stretch of the imagination, not a continuously populated area. Your own responses show this, as 10 miles not populated are 10 miles of nature. (And the Lakeland-Plant City moment is very funny! Three of my good friends are all proud "Po’k County" guys…and if you think its urban…or even suburban, I have some land in Cuba you might be interested in!) But, I’m not going to argue with you anymore on this. You’re right…it’s an MSA!

Second, I work with both DPZ and Dover Kohl, and one of Sarasota’s stipulations was to keep Sarasota’s unique character and DISCOURAGE melding with Fort Myers and Tampa Bay. Check out the newspaper once in a blue moon. But, I’m not going to argue with you anymore on this. You’re right…it’s an MSA!

Third, a marketing website "tampabay.org" does not an MSA make. Or, more to the point, an association of business and government interest who are trying to drum up money and business, adding the name ".org" to give it credibility, is not a public record website. I know. I put these together all the time. The trick is to find those that are part of an educational collaborative, or claim their status on the front page. I’m betting if I LexisNexis long enough, I could find out the money behind "tampabay.org". But, I’m not going to argue with you anymore on this. You’re right…it’s an MSA!

So, as I said, it’s an MSA. I stand humbled, corrected and forlorn with dismay.

Seriously, though…the sites on South Florida and their actual MSA are really informative and remarkable…and are a bit scary if you think about it! It completely builds on the Miami Herald’s City-States Report from 2000, which changed the tri-county relations and the way most cityphiles looked at this metro, and it really gives you a sense of just how urban and intense the development is here. Hopefully, we’re doing it the right way!

But if not, you can always move to Greater Houstorlampasota!

And, while it is true that "It is built from Wilmington Delaware to NYC, but they are not the same area", the mass megapolis is defined in numerous texts as the largest continuous urban agglomeration in the world. A "megacity" , if you will.

done now. don't really care!

OMG TOOO FUNNY!!!!

Quote: But if not, you can always move to Greater Houstorlampasota!

LMFAO!!!

This thread got me laughing big time... Ace1974... like the fact that you base your information on FACTS!

just wanted to chime in.
The stretch between Lakeland and Tampa is not remotely urban. Not even suburban. I've driven between Tampa and Orlando many times...
but I wouldnt consider the majority of metro Miami urban either. I was in Miami for a week, about 2 months ago, along with my wife who grew up in Miami almost all her life. I pretty much got a tour of the metro, and while it's by far the most urban area in the state, the majority of the city felt like suburban sprawlville, especially the further you leave the coast. Also, downtown Miami wasn't very spectacular.
Southern cities still don't hold a candle to established Northeastern cities or other other historically large cities (like chicago or san fransisco), in terms of continuous urbanity. Miami metro is still very much suburban and car dependant.

Suburban still qualifies as urban.

"Second, I work with both DPZ and Dover Kohl, and one of Sarasota’s stipulations was to keep Sarasota’s unique character and DISCOURAGE melding with Fort Myers and Tampa Bay. Check out the newspaper once in a blue moon. But, I’m not going to argue with you anymore on this. You’re right…it’s an MSA!

Third, a marketing website "tampabay.org" does not an MSA make. Or, more to the point, an association of business and government interest who are trying to drum up money and business, adding the name ".org" to give it credibility, is not a public record website. I know. I put these together all the time. The trick is to find those that are part of an educational collaborative, or claim their status on the front page. I’m betting if I LexisNexis long enough, I could find out the money behind "tampabay.org". But, I’m not going to argue with you anymore on this. You’re right…it’s an MSA!"

Well, I am not going to argue with you either (you do that well enough). (by the way, the money is listed on the website, if you had taken the time to read it, but I guess you were establishing all those other facts.)
. . . but you're right everything but WPB-Miami is a pasture.
"Your own responses show this, as 10 miles not populated are 10 miles of nature. "

I guess the Verazano narrows means that staen Island is not part of the NYC area.

"And, while it is true that "It is built from Wilmington Delaware to NYC, but they are not the same area", the mass megapolis is defined in numerous texts as the largest continuous urban agglomeration in the world. A "megacity" , if you will. "

You are right. So what? but, who cares, it's all a pasture.

In any event, one cannot possibly respond to such powerful intellect and such overwheliming facts as the alleged thoughts your two buds from Imperial Polk County. In any event, you are obviously right, it is all pasture.

"And, while it is true that "It is built from Wilmington Delaware to NYC, but they are not the same area", the mass megapolis is defined in numerous texts as the largest continuous urban agglomeration in the world. A "megacity" , if you will."

And by the way, as an aside that is not relevant to your other errors, but you should know before you start spouting off, it is not "continuous" by your definition - there are gaps of a few miles here and few miles there, but then the texts don't actually put you on the road looking at it.

Somebody, who actually has lived there for several years needs to clear the air and tell the truth about Polk County.

I lived in both Tampa and Orlando, and frequently business trip (and Disney) there. Yes, its getting more built-up, particularly in the Orlando area. But there’s still a tremendous amount of empty, natural land on the 1-4 corridor. (Go to Polk County for an example. Their rate of growth is significantly lower—both in numbers and percentages—and it will take them 50-70 YEARS to even reach the Broward County of the 1980’s!) And, the region doesn’t really "share" culture the way that South Florida does. There will be a large Orlando MSA, and there will be a significant Tampa-Saint Pete MSA, but I don’t really think "Orlampa" is in the cards for a while. They are just culturally different.

If you want to discuss Polk County, I'm the guy to supply you with the correct information. First off, there won't be much development taking place along I-4 (from SR 559 to US 27) because its a protected swamp and wildlife area. The Green Swamp is also supplies most of the State's drinking water.

However, there is already a continuous line of sprawl development connecting Plant City (Tampa Metro), Lakeland, Auburndale, Winter Haven, Haines City & Lake Wales along US 92, US 17, SR 540 & parts of US 27. Also the suburbs of Orlando/Disney area have already crossed the Polk County border along US 192 & US 27, near I-4. What was once abandoned orange groves, five years ago, is now thousands of suburban tract homes, golf courses and gated communities, roughly from Haines City all the way to Clermont in Lake County. Futhermore, If you get off of I-4 (between I-75 & Plant City), and travel back roads, like MLK Blvd through Seffner, you'll see several new houses being built along this stretch running parallel to the undeveloped portions (mostly strawberry fields) of I-4. Nobody is claiming Polk to be as developed or as dense as metro Miami, but its no Clewiston or Belle Glade either.

BTW, Polk's growth rate is actually about the same as that of the Tampa-St. Petersburg metro area.

In fact, in the future, "South Florida" may be much, much bigger.
Check out http://www.soflo.org, where their report basically states that in 25 years, "South Florida MSA" will not only be Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties, but Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Monroe, Martin, St. Lucie and Indian River counties. And the report is quite compelling in presenting the commonalties between the counties…and how those likenesses will only intensify with time.
(this article is great too…and is like an abridged version of the report: http://www.catanese.org/articles/04...orida_Trend.htm)

I’m not sure the other regions in Florida will have this happen (and certainly not to the level that it is happening in South Florida).

I don't understand how you can claim that the Miami-Ft Lauderdale-West Palm Beach metro will connect with far flung counties, like St. Lucie & Indian River, but deny the same thing won't take place in Central Florida, when the central florida metros (including Lakeland) are all already bigger and growing just as fast, if not faster, as these.

In response to:
"Yeah, it doesnt make any sense to me that Sarasota and Lakeland arent considered part of tampa metro."
See above for Sarasota and apply to Lakeland. How anybody in Polk County can honestly look at their locale and suggest that Lakeland, Winter Haven and the rest are part of this over-built, nature-removed urban agglomeration is beyond me. Polk County is not even remotely "urban." In fact, the only part of Lakeland that even nears city status is that downtown lake thing. I’ve taken main roads under farm silos there. Y’all aren’t exactly in danger of building out.

To say that Polk County is not even remotely urban is a flat out lie. Tell that to the 512,000 people living in the county and the 90,000 living in Lakeland. Take a trip down South Florida Avenue and tell me how many farm silos you see, sitting next to the strip shopping centers, restaurants, gas stations, etc. You'll have plenty of time, since you'll be stuck in slow moving traffic. You may not believe it, but they just don't build new beltways in the middle of nowhere, as they did with the 25 mile Polk Parkway a couple of years ago.

And, come to think of it, Polk County is mostly WASP, mostly native born or southern transplant and in primarily agri-business or phosphate-based.

Actually Polk's economy is pretty diverse and because of that, it didn't suffer the setbacks that occured in places like Orlando and South Florida, because of their heavy reliance on tourism. Historically Polk was primarily based on citrus and phosphate. Unfortunately, these industries are moving south and are laying off thousands of people. However, those jobs have been replaced by large distribution centers (ex. Walmart, Rooms to Go, JCPenney), manufacturing facilites (ex. Lowe's, Cargill, Minute Maid) and corporate regional headquarters. (ex. GEICO, Lockheed Martin, Marriott & State Farm). All of these compaines chose this place, due to its centralized location between Tampa & Orlando. In fact, many of my friends, who live in Polk, work in Tampa & Orlando, and many of my ex-coworkers, lived in Tampa and commuted to Lakeland to work. If needed, I'll be happy to post you a list of area's largest employers, proving there's a lot more to this area than farmers, cows, & phosphate pits.

Drive east from Tampa to Lakeland and then Orlando.
Consistently populated and urban? Not by a long shot. Consistently sharing a common ground across the board? Nope. Hence…its not an MSA.

Polk is actually a mixed bag of nuts. West Polk (Lakeland) is greatly influenced by Tampa. Central Polk (Winter Haven, Bartow) have there own world and Northeastern Polk (Four Corners, Poinciana) are suburbs of Orlando.
Its probably considered its on metro because it would be too tough to split a county and its different cultures into three different metro areas.

Another thing about living in Lakeland. The city's main local industries are the main reason for Tampa's port being the largest in the state, the media is Tampa's, for entertainment and shopping needs, most travel to Tampa, and many residents of Lakeland & Tampa commute to each city for work. My former next door neighbor still commutes to St. Pete for work, and the lady two houses down, taught school in Hillsborough County. There's a reason why I-4 is always crowded and it has a lot more to do with the Lakeland-Tampa connection, than tourist.

and to finally wrap all of my babbling up, this stuff is facts......why, because I actually lived it.

WPB-FTL-MIA is neither one conglomerate of urbanity or incredibly dense. What each county shares in common--as well as the rest of the state--is suburban sprawl. That is why these counties are connected. I am as happy as the next person with all the downtown development in Florida's cities but there is no need to overstate and exaggerate the Miami metro while disregarding Tampa-St Pete-Sarasota and Orlando. And its definitely not going to take 70 years to build out Polk County, as sad as that is. Anyone who knows the area knows that the Orlando metro now extends into Polk (the huge developments of Championsgate and Reunion are responsible for this, at least they are really nice). Furthermore, and I'm going out on a limb here, but Orlando's metro as a whole, just may be more "dense" as a whole than other metros as you put it due to the high volume of hotels and tourism related business around the I-4 corridor aswell as downtown and North of Orlando in Maitland and Lake Mary. Yet, this still constitutes as sprawl.

The everglades will be safe because it is a natural park so the Suburbs cant grow ne more, that is why there is so much high-rise construction in miami because the only way to build is up and that is why by 2025 there will be a building over 1000 feet.

That is actually not the reason, because most people who would live out in those sprawling areas near the everglades could never afford downtown units. Instead, they are moving to Broward. Those downtown units are being developed by developers who are attracting foreigners. There have been several articles on here about that. Perhaps when there is a condo bust and prices fall ordinary people from Kendall and Homestead with their 4 Explorers will cash in on the benefits of living in Brickell, but not yet.

WPB-FTL-MIA is neither one conglomerate of urbanity or incredibly dense. What each county shares in common--as well as the rest of the state--is suburban sprawl. That is why these counties are connected. I am as happy as the next person with all the downtown development in Florida's cities but there is no need to overstate and exaggerate the Miami metro while disregarding Tampa-St Pete-Sarasota and Orlando. And its definitely not going to take 70 years to build out Polk County, as sad as that is. Anyone who knows the area knows that the Orlando metro now extends into Polk (the huge developments of Championsgate and Reunion are responsible for this, at least they are really nice). Furthermore, and I'm going out on a limb here, but Orlando's metro as a whole, just may be more "dense" as a whole than other metros as you put it due to the high volume of hotels and tourism related business around the I-4 corridor aswell as downtown and North of Orlando in Maitland and Lake Mary. Yet, this still constitutes as sprawl.

No one said WPB-FTL-MIA was INCREDIBLY DENSE...it is dense though...Pretty much all of Miami (within Miami-Dade county) is denser than not only other Florida cities but most other American cities. And it's definitely not sprawlville near the coasts (4 to 5 mi inland) in Broward and West palm beach...all those places got built out decades ago (80's). I'm not saying EVERY single plot of land was used, but just that these places were already established areas with businesses, retail, condos, and homes....and these homes aren't on huge 1 acre or 1/2 acre plots...these are dense neighborhhoods (like the ones you find in the core of some of Florida's other major cities)...Even Outer Miami Dade is dense, like Miami Springs, Hialeah, Miami Lakes, Kendall, etc....Outer Broward and and Outer WPB are Definitely Sprawl if I've ever seen such a thing! There's sprawl even on the outer fringes of the miami suburbs....What I'm trying to say is that these cities didn't just "sprawl" into each other....There is major development all along/near the coast and these cities subsequently sprawled west. Let's just clear up the definition of Sprawl...when I think of Sprawl, I think of very spread out...or even those "dense" gated communities that are far away from supermarkets and hair salons and chinese food....I think of roads and expressways with huge grassy medians...etc....this, undoubtedly, is NOT Miami of Ft Lauderdale you have to drive half an hour to an hour west for that!


Notice I said nothing about Tampa or Orlando...because I haven't studied those areas extensively enough...I have visited them numerous times nonetheless, and to say that the Orlando region is more dense than the South Florida region is preposterous (You might be able to debate WPB alone but not definitely not FTL). So this is no rag on my other favorite Florida cities!

Conclusion: the WPB-FTL-MIA area IS an Urban Conglomerate!

Well I think we disagree on what the definition of "sprawl" is. I don't consider streetcar suburbs from the 20s sprawl because generally they are connected and integrated very well into the urban environment of the existing city, but the haphazard growth that exists outward, for instance, just past Coral Gables, mostly all of Kendall, etc, I consider sprawl. Miami may perhaps be more dense than other US cities, I don't know, but that doesn't mean its more "walkable" and in a sense, a place where you can park your car and go anywhere. Miami Beach is the only place you can do that (or at least the only place you would want to do that). In fact, and I'm not really trying to get in an argument (I just don't necessarily agree), even if Orlando is not more dense than Miami, the downtown area is more urban. I guess that is what I am trying to say. Its easier to get around, people actually do walk around there and its better integrated into the existing neighborhoods. I think I've just made this more confusing, but the point is made.

I believe Pinellas County is the most dense in Florida, although Miami-Dade is denser in some parts.

I think Dade took over finally. Pinellas growth has really slowed. or, maybe I'm wrong.

Pinellas is still kicking everyones ass in denisty. Pinellas is 3300 per sq/mile. Broward is the next closest with 1400 per sq/mile. Dade is at 1100 per sq/mile.

I got this info from here: http://site.conway.com/ez/GetEZState1.cfm?state=FL

Jeez... I knew Dade has half the Everglades to its credit, but I didn't know it was that bad!

I agree w/ skydivejunkee in that we define sprawl differently. Sprawl to me is strip malls, cookie-cutter office complexes and other non mixed-use infrastructure. Density is another story. You can have dense sprawl, but sprawl is still sprawl.
I think Miami metro is the most dense metro in the state, and probably more dense than most other metros in the US, due to being bound in by the Everglades. But outside of Brickell, South Beach, and a few of the downtown cores, Miami still suffers from what every other southern metro suffers from (other than New Orleans), an overall sprawled, car dependent metropolis.
However, I believe Miami is in the best position to change itself & become truely urban.

Pinellas is still kicking everyones ass in denisty. Pinellas is 3300 per sq/mile. Broward is the next closest with 1400 per sq/mile. Dade is at 1100 per sq/mile.

I got this info from here: http://site.conway.com/ez/GetEZState1.cfm?state=FL

tonyff67 sorry to inform you but that data is flawed....
they are using the geographical limits of a county and then dividing the county's population to arrive at an average population per sqare mile...
The inhabited portion of Miami-Dade does not occupy all of the 1,949 square miles...in fact being involved in Real Estate here I have maps that divides the county into 1 square mile increments....Miami-dade barely takes up 400 miles of the county and that is including farmlands in the Redlands & Homestead(nearly 50 sq. miles) not to mention the Lakebelt area just North of Doral
where phosphate is mined.
that would basically put the "average" pop. per sq. mile over 5,750 people in the county.

wow, I never knew phosphate was mined that far south.

that would basically put the "average" pop. per sq. mile over 5,750 people in the county.

That is pretty dense.

To comment on an earlier topic of this thread, I do not believe that Sarasota is to Tampa what West Palm is to Miami. It may be some day, but it will take more time and more development. My parents live down there, and so during the summer I've spent a good amount of time here, and from my observations and conversations with the locals, Sarasota does not consider itself a part of Tampa. Bradenton and especially east Manatee County on the other hand is turning into a Bay area suburb, especially for those commuting to St. Pete.

Don't mean to disagree with you though, Smiley. I am not sure how the economies of the two cities are tied, but I think that Sarasota will either emerge as one of Florida's bigger cities, or it will be absorbed into the Tampa Bay area.

I feel sorry for anyone who has to drive from anywhere in Sarasota's city limits, or anywhere in Sarasota County, for that matter to DT Tampa twice a day.

I feel sorry for anyone who has to drive from anywhere in Sarasota's city limits, or anywhere in Sarasota County, for that matter to DT Tampa twice a day.
i doubt anyone does that, but they do commute to st pete, which isnt all that far away from sarasota

Actually, I know of people who do do that, but many more go to Brandon or the other way, which is no big deal, really.

Actually, I know of people who do do that, but many more go to Brandon or the other way, which is no big deal, really.

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense, especially if you live near I-75 where most of the development is occuring, like Lakewood Ranch. In fact, there are plans to build a new mall or one of these "lifestyle centers" where University Parkway meets the interstate, which is a great location for one since it is right on the Manatee-Sarasota line.

BTW, on the topic of Brandon, does anyone happen to know what the population of Brandon would be were it incorporated? I suppose that would include Bloomingdale, Valrico, and areas west of I-75. I'm guessing it would be at least 150,000. Even though the area has absolutely no character, it would be nice to see it incorporated, if for no reason other than to have another 100k+ city in the Tampa Bay area.

Well I think we disagree on what the definition of "sprawl" is. I don't consider streetcar suburbs from the 20s sprawl because generally they are connected and integrated very well into the urban environment of the existing city, but the haphazard growth that exists outward, for instance, just past Coral Gables, mostly all of Kendall, etc, I consider sprawl. Miami may perhaps be more dense than other US cities, I don't know, but that doesn't mean its more "walkable" and in a sense, a place where you can park your car and go anywhere. Miami Beach is the only place you can do that (or at least the only place you would want to do that). In fact, and I'm not really trying to get in an argument (I just don't necessarily agree), even if Orlando is not more dense than Miami, the downtown area is more urban. I guess that is what I am trying to say. Its easier to get around, people actually do walk around there and its better integrated into the existing neighborhoods. I think I've just made this more confusing, but the point is made.

lol...I don't wanna argue...and I actually agree with everything you said above

BTW, on the topic of Brandon, does anyone happen to know what the population of Brandon would be were it incorporated? I suppose that would include Bloomingdale, Valrico, and areas west of I-75. I'm guessing it would be at least 150,000. Even though the area has absolutely no character, it would be nice to see it incorporated, if for no reason other than to have another 100k+ city in the Tampa Bay area.
Actually i saw somewhere Brandon's population is 110K

I didnt know it was unincorperated tho.

tonyff67 sorry to inform you but that data is flawed....
they are using the geographical limits of a county and then dividing the county's population to arrive at an average population per sqare mile...
The inhabited portion of Miami-Dade does not occupy all of the 1,949 square miles...in fact being involved in Real Estate here I have maps that divides the county into 1 square mile increments....Miami-dade barely takes up 400 miles of the county and that is including farmlands in the Redlands & Homestead(nearly 50 sq. miles) not to mention the Lakebelt area just North of Doral
where phosphate is mined.
that would basically put the "average" pop. per sq. mile over 5,750 people in the county.


I am not disagreeing. I realize much of Dade is undevelopable(is that a word) the topic came up about county densities and I just posted some info I found.

I'm pretty sure that most of the mining in Dade county is for limestone. I've not heard of phosphate mining down here. That's nasty dirty stuff.

From the government’s Census website:
http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/aboutmetro.html

The general concept of a metropolitan statistical area is that of a core area containing a substantial population nucleus, together with adjacent communities having a high degree of economic and social integration with that core.

Each metropolitan statistical area must have at least one urbanized area of 50,000 or more inhabitants.

If specified criteria are met, a metropolitan statistical area containing a single core with a population of 2.5 million or more may be subdivided to form smaller groupings of counties referred to as "metropolitan divisions."

The largest city in each metropolitan statistical area is designated a "principal city." Additional cities qualify if specified requirements are met concerning population size and employment. The title of each metropolitan statistical area consists of the names of up to three of its principal cities and the name of each state into which the metropolitan statistical area extends. Titles of metropolitan divisions also typically are based on principal city names but in certain cases consist of county names.

Just some info!

"Conclusion: the WPB-FTL-MIA area IS an Urban Conglomerate!"

first the government, now you...wow South Florida MSA fever is catching!

Kidding.

Pinellas County has about 230 sq/miles of developable land. The seasonal (6 months or more)/permanent population is about 1.04 million.... 4,348 give or take per sq/mile...still officially the most dense county with just the permanent population in Florida. And yes, it is growing at a pace of only about 4,000 people a year now.... compared to Hillsborough at 30,000, Pasco with 15,000, and Manatee at 12,000. Even Hernando is growing at a much faster rate to date.

Technically, Pinellas is the densest. Actually Dade is, though most of it is pretty suburban in the sense you can't jsut get out and walk around and most of the development is single family homes or suburban style apartments and strip malls. The same for Broward and Palm Beach. Let's be honest, Florida has no NYC.

LOL I'd settle for a Cleveland.

then move there

i like florida because its not like NYC, i dont want my house 3 feet away from my neighboors, i like having yards, neighboorhoods, and stuff like that, thats why i live here

Dude chill out.

The realization is, Florida has uncontrollable sprawl and does little to curb it. I love Florida but thats not something I'm proud of. Luckily I don't live in one of those areas.

Where do you live skydive...I thought you lived in Kendall??!!

double post, read below

Since we're on the topic of metro populations, here’s a list of comapring the populations of Florida’s largest metros over 100k in 1960 to their current population. Thought this was a little interesting. Stats come from censusscope.org (http://www.censusscope.org). First listed under the city name, is the 1960 pop., followed by the 2000 census figures.

Florida
4,951,560
15,982,378

Miami-Ft. Lauderdale
1,268,993
3,876,380

Tampa-St. Pete
820,443
2,395,997

Jacksonville
522,169
1,100,491

Orlando
394,899
1,644,561

West Palm Beach
228,106
1,131,184

Pensecola
203,376
412,153

Lakeland-Winter Haven
195,139
483,924

Sarasota-Bradenton
146,063
589,959

Daytona Beach
129,885
493,175

Tallahassee
116,214
284,539

Melbourne-Titusville-Palm Bay
111,435
476,230

AGENT ORANGE :) , BADBOYZ :) , and Everyone Else :) , Since the 2004 Year is Ending, WHATS the LATEST METRO AREA Population of THESE CITIES NOW ??? :cheers:
In the News :) , Just Last Week :) , it was Mention with the Latest Miami Building BOOM That Miami is ADDING 30,000 New Residents EACH YEAR, WOW !, POPULATION EXPLOSION !!! :cheers:

I'm pretty sure that most of the mining in Dade county is for limestone. I've not heard of phosphate mining down here. That's nasty dirty stuff.
TRUE BRICKELL :)

Yeah, I wonder when the new info will be out? Probably not for quite a while.


That list Agent Orange posted is interesting. Some cities grew faster, but generally the list isn't too different. It seems like Ft Myers and Sarsota were the big movers. and off that list, WPB was the fastest grower, by basically quintupling its population.

Just a coment on your talks about orlampa. I used to live in in Orlando and drove to tampa where my parents lived. There was a sign I used to pass that said, "Future site of Downtown Orlampa" It was a sign in the midle of a cow pasture with nothing around it for miles. Thats my feeling. There is no Orlampa. And I used to always drive between Fort Myers and Tampa as well, and there was miles of nothing between Bradington, sarasota, venice and FM. I think its still to early to lump any of these cities together as they share nothing (besides ugly buildings). Just my opinion (damn official census things). I would also like to add my two cents about the sprawl. It is out of control, and is destroying a beutiful state. I would like to see more building up and less out. Ok, thas all.

There is a gap between Tampa and Orlando - but it will fill in for the most part. There is no gap between sarasota and bradenton if you go on 41 rather than 75. Bradenton is quickly moving to merge into Hillsborough and get to the Skyway - obviously can't merge with Pinellas as there is a bay in the way - once you get off 275 on 19/41 in Manatee, there is a mile or two of spottyness, then stuff all the way to Sarasota and beyond. (necessarily nice stuff, but there it is). Going south there is little gap between Sarasota and Venice on the coast. Not that this necessarily means anything in particular, but those are the facts.

there are development plans to build subdivisions all the way to the skyway bridge (well, except for the protected mangroves at the foot of the bridge) and to close any remaining gap between Sarasota and Venice (not that there is much of one, only a couple miles and plans to develop are already in motion). And, despite the emptyness of South Hills. county, there are lots people communting from manasota to work in Tampa and to do regular business there, so Tampa is definately an important part of the daily lives of Sarasotans (it is the "capital" so to speak), whether they'd like to admit it or not. As for "Orlampa," we aren't there yet but we need cohesive planning for a "central Florida" metro in the near future so we can avoid many of the mistakes South Florida made believing that it wasn't a single metro when it had already been one for years.

I actually think the surprising thing is how much Hillsborough has crept down 75. USed to be that Gibsonton was way out in the middle of nowhere (yea, I know, you may think it is, but the 75-100,000 people who live around it may disagree)

South Hillsborough County will be a different place in a ten years. It's just an odd drive from there to the major employment centers of DT Tampa and Westshore. However, as the office parks along I-75 fill up and expand, so will the south Hillsborough housing market.

If Hillsborough keeps true to it's urban service boundary, there will always small gaps on the south and east. However, I believe they'll expand the boundary eventually.

It is time to begin some inter-metropolitan planning, particularly with the coastal counties.

Sarasota/Bradenton is very much part of the Tampa market. Working in TV, we understand what it means to have those cities in our DMA. Also working in the media, you'll notice a prominate link on TBO.com to the Sarasota/Brandenton communities as part of the larger Tampa Bay area.

As for undeveloped land in a metro... I don't get it. Just because there is a farm or parcel of undeveloped land, doesn't mean an area isn't urban or suburban. I know of a farm right smack in the middle of the Baltimore/Washington metro. You see it from the beltway just past College Park. Heck, you fly over a farm just before landing on the tarmac at BWI. Does this mean Baltimore and Washington aren't urban? Oh no...open space...DC and B'more are no longer cities!!!