georgetown is not a city status...it is still a town, although it has all the requirements to declare as city.


A city do not need to be declared to be a city. It is a city no matter what people says. The govt doesn't recognised George Town as a city doesn't mean that it is not a city. :yes:

Just like KL......you think the city ceases after the official boundary? KL Metro had swallowed towns and 'cities' around it and that we call Klang Valley - an unoficial name for greater KL. But of course politics came into play and not in a million years that the Selangor govt would admit that Shah Alam is part of KL's sprawl :D

in the case georgetown is declared city, how it ll be named? Georgecity?


Is Cape Town a city? :D

And of course Kuala Lumpur is no longer muddy so once a name is stuck then it would be like that forever unless people changed it. If tomorrow Kampung Jawa were to be a city, I believe it would still retain its name :yes:

I am too emotionous already, i will be careful to my words. Actually, Penang and JB cant differ with each others that which one is the second biggest city.

But, one thing is JB has huge land to develop but penang island has limited place to develop.

I know JB has huge land to further develop... and don't forget Butterworth on the mainland of Malaysia is also under Penang...

Kindly don't bring up sensitive issue again... hehehe

You are right, Magician. Butterworth is now being developed as well. Imagine you standing at the middle span of the PG bridge and viewing the high rise... (maybe need to wait until 20XX....)

georgetown is not a city status...it is still a town, although it has all the requirements to declare as city.
I see... Georgetown is still under MPPP, but not MBPP. P=Perbandaran and B=Bandaraya.

I know JB has huge land to further develop... and don't forget Butterworth on the mainland of Malaysia is also under Penang...

Kindly don't bring up sensitive issue again... hehehe

It is not a sensitive issue, you have to understand that johor bahru has the capability to expand and develop. something you said seemed inappropriate. Butterworth on the other side of pulau penang is separated by the 15 kilometres wide sea. City doesnt make up and dont works that way. Butterworth is a city itself. George town on the other hand is known as the capital city of the pulau penang which is one of the thirteen state in malaysia. This also includes part of the mainland malaysia. A city is formed only when many towns are incorporated which i think pulau penang wont be able to do so as its lands are very limited.

If penang is a city, then the whole state of johore would be a city. :)

Hmm.... Good point! :D However, if this analogy been used to determine the city status, so how about Hong Kong, which is separated by the Victoria Harbour?

I just wanna to clarify my confusion only.....:)
It is not a sensitive issue, you have to understand that johor bahru has the capability to expand and develop. something you said seemed inappropriate. Butterworth on the other side of pulau penang is separated by the 15 kilometres wide sea. City doesnt make up and dont works that way. Butterworth is a city itself. George town on the other hand is known as the capital city of the pulau penang which is one of the thirteen state in malaysia. This also includes part of the mainland malaysia. A city is formed only when many towns are incorporated which i think pulau penang wont be able to do so as its lands are very limited.

If penang is a city, then the whole state of johore would be a city. :)

It is not a sensitive issue, you have to understand that johor bahru has the capability to expand and develop.


First if all it is not for you to gauge if this is sensitive or not. I would be the judge here :yes:




something you said seemed inappropriate. Butterworth on the other side of pulau penang is separated by the 15 kilometres wide sea. City doesnt make up and dont works that way. Butterworth is a city itself. George town on the other hand is known as the capital city of the pulau penang which is one of the thirteen state in malaysia. This also includes part of the mainland malaysia.


Johnsonooi and Magician is right about city sprawl - they do not recognise physical boundaries as long as there are land and opportunities. Hong Kong is a very good example. No one can deny the fact that George Town's growth had 'sprawled' across the sea to Butterworth although Butterworth is a town in its own rights.And that the Gurney Drive area isn't exactly in George Town so the greater George Town area is actually much larger than you think. :yes:

Another good example would be New York City. The city isn't just limited to Manhattan island but also Brooklyn and New Jersey. So having rivers and seas separating a city isn't the issue really unless it is the Atlantic ocean lah :D





A city is formed only when many towns are incorporated which i think pulau penang wont be able to do so as its lands are very limited.



Penang island could be fully urbanised on one side and a resort on the other side just like HK island. Its urban sprawl could be spread over to Seberang Perai but of course given our politics here, they won't recognised it is actually George Town's sprawl and instead they would declare Butterworth another city in Malaysia :D To say that Penang is small and have no room to grow is very myopic as a city cometimes not only grow sideways but also upwards. That is why (given the limit of land), Penang had more skyscrapers than JB. ;)




If penang is a city, then the whole state of johore would be a city. :)

^^ This is certainly the 'joke of the day'! :D

I dun see Muar being connected physically and 'urbanly' to JB? How can the whole state be a city? You think this is Coruscant ar? :D But Penang island had the potential should they close the physical urban gaps just like HK island. Just like KL.......one just drives all the way to Klang without realising that there is any 'gaps' in between ;)

szehoong has very valid points there!

People sometimes spit out funny statements when they're soaked with parochial emotions. :)

DELETED - due to technical error

I think we should appreciate those who gave the opinions, which are a little bit bias. It is because they have pin-point the weakness of the human, which all of us may repeat the mistake again. I perceived that those, who gave these opinions, are came from either penang or JB, and they are trying to defend their motherland or hometown regardless any matter. This is human nature and we should learn from mistakes and do not repeat them again...

Just my 2 cents worth.........cheers:D

[I am not targeting anybody or particular person......just general comments.....If my comment seems irritate you, please ignore it.....:D]

I was just trying to say that Butterworth could be developed into another possible city... hehe...

Anyway thanks for all the information and clarifications...

Oh-hoh, magician is playing "magic" words ha......... :bash: :jk:
I was just trying to say that Butterworth could be developed into another possible city... hehe...

Anyway thanks for all the information and clarifications...

Is it really important who's second? :)

Hmm.... Good point! :D However, if this analogy been used to determine the city status, so how about Hong Kong, which is separated by the Victoria Harbour?

I just wanna to clarify my confusion only.....:)


As i had said before, 15 km wide sea do not make up a city between George town and Butterworth.

I was just trying to say that Butterworth could be developed into another possible city... hehe...

Anyway thanks for all the information and clarifications...

Butterworth has the possibility to develop into big city, but not penang.Afterall, it is too small an island.

Is it really important who's second? :)

I dont think its really that important lah, just that pulau penang is too small for further development. It will never acquire the metropolis status. However, it can develop upward instead of sideward. :)

Oh i see. So what is the ideal maximum distance of the separation [by river or sea] between the cities, ie penang and butterworth, that make them possible combine to become a metropolitan area?

thank you!!! :D
As i had said before, 15 km wide sea do not make up a city between George town and Butterworth.

Is it really important who's second? :)
Good question. :okay:
I hv another one. Why is either JB or Penang considered as second city? Size really matter here? There is no second, third, forth city n so on. It shld be who's the second most important city to Malaysia?

Is it really important who's second? :)

Exactly. Is it so important?

I haven't been to Penang before, but I can say that both Penang and JB have great character and potential to boom.

As i had said before, 15 km wide sea do not make up a city between George town and Butterworth.


What is that criteria based on? Is there any min/max distance of physical geographical separation to gauge on? :?

BTW George Town and Butterworth isn't exactly 15kms apart. If you have been to Penang, you'll noticed that George Town is actually quite near the mainland as it protrudes out at a pointy corner of the island. So it is definitely nearer than 15kms. You can't judge by the length of the bridge. :)

I dont think its really that important lah, just that pulau penang is too small for further development. It will never acquire the metropolis status. However, it can develop upward instead of sideward. :)


That is so myopic. What about Manhattan? WHat about HK Island? What about Singapore? Heard of reclamation?

Anyway most of the island are still very low density and there are plenty of room for development. If there is a demand, we might not even be seeing too many low-rises in the future :yes:

You obviously are ignorant to the fact that we could built up. The only thing stopping Penang in achieving metropolis status (I believe it is already......just that it is not yet a Megalopolis) is the population. Malaysia simply do not have the mass of population to support to megalopolis yet ;)

Is it really important who's second? :)


Actually in my book (and in the book of many economist), George Town is the second most important city in Malaysia. :yes:


Yes.......it might not be important for layman like you and I but such rankings are important to investors and people whom are in the real estate business. They need to know these sort of thing.


Although after your question, many deny that the rankings are not important but deep down inside us, it is important. That is because we are human and we are obsessed with all kinds of comparisons. That is why this thread had so many views and replies. It even weathered thru some turbulents a week or two ago :D I am merely speaking the truth and if it is not important this thread would be ignored. I do not see that happening :lol:

So why do I say Penang is the second? Well......for the start, they are the most important city in Malaysia before independence. Although KL at that time is the political capital but it certainly lacked the economic clout of Penang. And of course we all know that Butterworth could ceased to exist without Penang or George Town.

However people denied this, JB are the resulted sprawl of Singapore. Political sensitivity had prevented many from saying this but JB's economy to a large extent are dependable on Singapore's. Why? Because for many years, the southern gateway is the main gateway for goods to the peninsular. Lately of course JB isn't too dependable but bear in mind that JB would cease to exist if not for Singapore. Yea......history tells us why Sultan Abu Bakar moved its capital. So please people......history is important :D

Ah Sze, I think the population in penang doesnt seem as a resistance for georgetown to get te city status because the island has about more than 800k population. besides, i think MPPP has a very stable financial account [ not sure about this, have to ask penangnites]. Thus, it is qualified to get city status or more than that. :D

Beyond that, the separation between Georgetown and Butterworth is just more or less than 7km, which is reasonable that Butterworth and George Town can be combined to make become big city, by comparing with HK. Butterworth has played a vital role in penang's economic as Malaysia Northern Port and support the georgetown with the necessity, which are food, services, electricity and so on and it also depends on georgetown for job opportunities and financial economic support. Both cities are interdependent and I reckon that there is a possibility to combine these cities to become megapolis.

However, the only factor that hinder the Georgetown to get city status are the political issues and the system...that's what i thought. Just make some simple comparisions, KL and Georgetown, both have a lots of similarities, such as policitical capital, economic & financial hub, social and community hub [ museums, universities.....] and provide basic facilities [airport]. The notable differences are KL - LRT, Penang - None [monorail is coming soon!]; Penang - seaport, KL - none; Penang - industrial hub [bayan lepas], KL - rely on PJ. So basically, things that KL had, Penang also got. :)

Ok, back on the topic. "JB or georgetown penang which is the 2nd city in malaysia?" Actually this question might be too general and need to be more specific. 2nd city in terms of what? size? economic?;)

However, based on what Ah sze said, I think penang does have more competitive advantages to be 2nd city by comparing to JB. Both of them do have alots of similarities, just like KL vs Penang, however, Penang seems to be very important hub for nothern malaysia, and compare to JB, which is also southern hub for malaysia, but its advantages have been taken over by Singapore. That's too bad for JB. Nevertheless, in 20 yrs time, JB might become the 2nd city in malaysia if JB overtakes singapore to be the next "Asia World City". [yo...JB rocks :rock:]

in conclusion, in the meantime, Georgetown is the 2nd city in malaysia, however, we cannot deny that any capital city in Malaysia can be the 2nd city in the future time, if neccessary efforts have been put into the city's development. Who knows that Kuching and JB emerge as important cities in SEA or Asia in 20 yrs time :runaway:; or all the capital cities are 2nd cities in Malaysia, which are the international hub for SEA :shocked:; or Alor Star become the hub for the northern golden triangle in the future [wuahahaha]:bash: :cheers:

Oh my gosh....my imaginary power is overworking:clown::weird:
That is so myopic. What about Manhattan? WHat about HK Island? What about Singapore? Heard of reclamation?

Anyway most of the island are still very low density and there are plenty of room for development. If there is a demand, we might not even be seeing too many low-rises in the future :yes:

You obviously are ignorant to the fact that we could built up. The only thing stopping Penang in achieving metropolis status (I believe it is already......just that it is not yet a Megalopolis) is the population. Malaysia simply do not have the mass of population to support to megalopolis yet ;)

Kuching has the population with 600,000, add up with Majlis Perbandaran Padawan, the population will be 950,000 or approaching 1mil. :)

I am not trying to insult anyone for i only have this to say about Johorens who perceive penang as a kampung. Their ignorance is no different to a eurocentric westerner who said that Singapore is a typical slum infested , poverty stricken typical third world country because it's outside the western hemisphere. Try surveying a group of westerners and see how many of them know about Penang and how many of them know about Johor. Numerous Australians that i know are aware of Penang and none of them are aware of JB.

I thought that Kuching is divided into 2 municipal districts, which are governed by DBKU and MBKS, and that's all for Kuching boundary.
Is that any other place may included in Kuching metropolitan area besides Padawan? :?:
Kuching has the population with 600,000, add up with Majlis Perbandaran Padawan, the population will be 950,000 or approaching 1mil. :)

In fact, Majlis Perbandaran Padawan is quite near to kch since it is in the kch province. In terms of the short distance between kch and Padawan, normally Padawan is included. But the actual population of kch is 600,000 if Padawan excluded. Actually, Majlis Perbandaran Padawan is just a district. :)

Malaysia's top 5 urban area :

1. Metropolitan District of Kuala Lumpur
pop: 4,207,200
area: 4,000 km square
urban centre: Kuala Lumpur
Metropolitan area: Petaling Jaya, Shah Alam, Subang Jaya, Klang,
MSC( Cyberjaya & Putrajaya ), KLIA etc.


2. Metropolitan District of Penang
pop: 1,312,220
area: 1,030 km square
urban centre: Georgetown ( North-east District )
Metropolitan area: Bayan Baru, Seberang Jaya, Batu Kawan
(satellite townships) , Balik Pulau, Butterworth,
Bukit Mertajam, Prai etc.


3. Metropolitan District of Johor Bahru
pop: 1,081,978
area: 1,818 km square
urban centre: Central District of Johor Bahru
Metropolitan area: Skudai, Kulai, Pasir Gudang, Ulu Tiram etc.


4. Ipoh
pop: 703,493
area: 1,958 km square

5. Kuching
pop: 494,109
area: 1,863 km square


Here's a website to settle this issue once and for all:

http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&des=gamelan&dat=32&geo=-152&srt=pnan&col=ohdq&va=&pt=a

hope that helps. keep in mind these data are compiled by a third party...so it's as close to fair and unbiased as possible.

some cities have very large area (large municipality or city limits) but most of it is undeveloped or rural. on the flip side, you may have some place like Boston or San Francisco (only 49 sq miles) and yet have huge suburban areas (in the US, we simply call them "built-up areas"; or conurbation). The Klang Valley (or also refered to as KL metro is one example -- a core city (KL) with numerous suburban towns, villages, districts, or even smaller cities around it.

in my opinion, a better way to compare is apples to apples. it seems to me comparisons were made between oranges and lemons to some extent, durians.

Penang is in a position to have a domino effect on Malaysia's economy whereas JB unfortunately is not. Let's not forget that more than half of Malaysia's manufacturing exports(in terms of value) come from the electronics industry and whether we like it or not , most of them are located in Penang. Intel and AMD in Penang are responsible for employing more than 15000 people directly and more than 50000 indirectly. Most of the other big names like Dell, HP , Acer and Motorola will not exist in Penang if not for Intel.Therefore, Penang is indispensable to Malaysia's economy(something that KL people are not aware of). Most of Penang's exports are high value products that are crucial to economy of Malaysia. If Penang is wiped off the map of Malaysia, it's exports will drop by at least 30% in terms of value and it will throw the
Malaysia's econmomy into serious recession. I am not convinced that JB will have a domino effect on Malaysia's economy if it is wiped off the map of Malaysia.

Penang is in a position to have a domino effect on Malaysia's economy whereas JB unfortunately is not. Let's not forget that more than half of Malaysia's manufacturing exports(in terms of value) come from the electronics industry and whether we like it or not , most of them are located in Penang. Intel and AMD in Penang are responsible for employing more than 15000 people directly and more than 50000 indirectly. Most of the other big names like Dell, HP , Acer and Motorola will not exist in Penang if not for Intel.Therefore, Penang is indispensable to Malaysia's economy(something that KL people are not aware of). Most of Penang's exports are high value products that are crucial to economy of Malaysia. If Penang is wiped off the map of Malaysia, it's exports will drop by at least 30% in terms of value and it will throw the
Malaysia's econmomy into serious recession. I am not convinced that JB will have a domino effect on Malaysia's economy if it is wiped off the map of Malaysia. I do not deny that JB has it's own industrial zones but most of them are not producing high value products. The gross value of all the goods produced in the Bayan Lepas Industrial zone cannot be matched by any other industrial area in Malaysia. Microchips stolen from the Penang Airport warehouse last year was worth 40 million alone

From National Physical Plan Malaysia, Federal Department of Town and Country Planning of Malaysia

In the last several decades since independence Malaysia has been experiencing accelerating urbanisation as a result of the structural economic change from dependence on mining and plantation agriculture to manufacturing and services. There has, however, not only been rapid urbanisation but also, in the census decade 1991-2000, a less obvious but highly significant trend in urban development. This is the centripetal concentration of the urban population in a small number of city regions, namely the conurbations around Kuala Lumpur, George Town and Johor Bahru. Indeed, the main concentration is in the Kuala Lumpur conurbation, with George Town and Johor Bahru struggling to keep pace. Johor Bahru has the advantage of proximity to Singapore and can benefit from overspill development from Singapore. George Town has a long tradition of cosmopolitan urban services to its regional sphere of influence and maintains its position as the second city of the Peninsula (having lost its first position to Kuala Lumpur soon after the selection of Kuala Lumpur as the national capital).

no fuss about the status. We all know it. While JB depends on Singapore, Penang stands for itself long time ago. We dont have wealthy neighbour to drive up domestic demand.

no fuss about the status. We all know it. While JB depends on Singapore, Penang stands for itself long time ago. We dont have wealthy neighbour to drive up domestic demand.

Yes and Penang also has to deal with a Federal government that gives them a disproportionate amount of funding despite being the 3rd largest contributor to Malaysia's GDP. It is the 2nd smallest state in Malaysia

Something tat i always dun understand is...why they always split malacca city into Melaka, Bukit Baru, Ayer Keroh, Klebang, Batu Berendam, Bukit Rambai?

But in fact...all the abovementioned is under MBMB (Majlis Bandaraya Melaka Bersejarah)

Just wondering...does this happen to other state? where few places fall under one city or municipal council but was split in the statistic?

so if asking bout the total population of Malacca city...it suppose to be 380,727...but its still way behind of other cities.

no fuss about the status. We all know it. While JB depends on Singapore, Penang stands for itself long time ago. We dont have wealthy neighbour to drive up domestic demand.

Add one more point, what shape Penang today is because of the endless supporting from neighbouring states.

Just wondering...does this happen to other state? where few places fall under one city or municipal council but was split in the statistic?


Penang is a typical example...State of Penang has two local authorities i.e. Penang Island Municipal Council (MPPP) and Seberang Prai Municipal Council (MPSP).

Whole of Penang Island is under the administration of MPPP, but in fact Penang Island itself consists of several city and towns such as Georgetown, Bayan Baru, Jelutong, Air Itam, Tg. Bungah, Balik Pulau, Bayan Lepas etc.

On the mainland Penang, it's under MPSP. Towns such as Butterworth, Bukit Mertajam, Kepala Batas, Batu Kawan, Seberang Jaya, Nibong Tebal etc. are all within the area administrated by MPSP.

So it's not suitable for MPPP and MPSP to remain as municipal council as these two local authorities are managing huge metropolitan area. At least let them upgrade to city council...

I am back. Where did i stop last time?
I dont think we need to compare jb with penang or penang with jb, both cities are far too small and extremely undeveloped compare with other cities around the globe, kl still ok. Come on, its a never ending story if you keep comparing, afterall they are somewhat fairly unimportant cities. Trust me guys, i travelled over 10 countries this year.

This is the list of the largest cities in Malaysia according to skyscrapers.com, which apparently uses national censuses (censi?). However, this, I assume, doesn't take metro areas into consideration. Cities like Boston, which has a huge metro area, are ranked lower because the city of Boston itself it relatively small. A majority of the population lives in the suburbs in a city like that. I'm not sure what it's like in Malaysia, but, for what it's worth, here's their list:

1. Kuala Lumpur
2. Penang Island
3. Klang
4. Kajang
5. Petaling Jaya
6. Subang Jaya
7. Ipoh
8. Sandakan
9. Johor Bahru
10. Shah Alam
11. Kelang
12. Kuala Terengganu
13. Kota Bahru
14. Alor Setar
15. Kota Kinabalu
16. Kuantan
17. Taiping
18. Seremban
19. Kuching
20. Bandar Melaka

hahaha Bandar Melaka so little only meh? sorry...i dont meant that..as i thought bandar melaka population is bigger than seremban.

Penang is the second largest city in Malaysia after KL !!!!

According to 2000 census,Penang's metropolitan population is about 1.3million (1,312,220) while JB's metropolitan population
is only 1.0 million(1,081,978).For KL , it's 1,305,792.
However, number of persons per square kilometre in KL is about
5,676......for Penang,1274.....and JB, it's 595 !!

* Metropolitan area of KL(not including those area in Selangor) is 243 km square , Penang 1030 km square and JB 1818 km square.

im headache...how come u calculate the whole state of penang?

that's what william said. 1.3 million is the population of the whole state:?

up to date...penang state got about 1.45m population...i got somewhere website...forgot the url jor:lol:

juz a sharing comment....not to offence...dont bite me pla...hehe

as i know penang is the most develop(bustling; busy; flourishing;glory)
territory/state/region/area before kl...most of the foreigner recognize/now more penang or george town than kl...

then after that one of the minister claim that penang delevep too rapid, then.............

im headache...how come u calculate the whole state of penang?

not just whole state of Penang, including Kulim, Sungai Petani and northern Perak which form the greater metropolitan of Penang or Conurbation of Georgetown.

up to date...penang state got about 1.45m population...i got somewhere website...forgot the url jor

Population of State Penang should be more than 1.45m maybe around 1.6m or 1.7m now, whole metropolitan area should easily surpass 2m...:banana:

not just whole state of Penang, including Kulim, Sungai Petani and northern Perak which form the greater metropolitan of Penang or Conurbation of Georgetown.



Population of State Penang should be more than 1.45m maybe around 1.6m or 1.7m now, whole metropolitan area should easily surpass 2m...:banana:


walao...too pack for too small

juz a sharing comment....not to offence...dont bite me pla...hehe

as i know penang is the most develop(bustling; busy; flourishing;glory)
territory/state/region/area before kl...most of the foreigner recognize/now more penang or george town than kl...

then after that one of the minister claim that penang delevep too rapid, then.............

Of course lar, then some one jealous ma, take away our free port, didn't spend money into development; .cheh...:ohno: