SkyscraperCity Forum banner

THE NETHERLANDS | Railways

1M views 5K replies 246 participants last post by  3737 
#1 ·
The Netherlands got many old trainstations. Some examples:

Amsterdam:



The Hague:



Groningen:



Haarlem:


Zwolle:



There are also some smaller cities with old trainstations:

Leeuwarden


Valkenburg


Middelburg



That's it. I hope you like the Dutch trainstations ;)
 
See less See more
11
#238 ·
End of paper tickets in NL

NS has announced that OV chipkaart (RFID smartcards) will be the only possible mean of payment of train fares in Netherlands from late 2012. This is 6 months after the initially planned phase-out of paper tickets on inter-city trains.

Local public transportation systems are also implementing the same card. In many regions, they are the only possible mean of using transit, save for an expensive single-trip disposable RFID card one can buy from conductors in certain trams and buses. A flat fee + distance-based fare is now applicable on transit, instead of the outdated and overdone zonal system in use before, based on mechanical stamps of cards market with strips.

Only exceptions to the card requirement will be passengers using international train tickets that entitles travel with NS trains for part of the journey and those using rail passes.
 
#239 ·
NS has announced that OV chipkaart (RFID smartcards) will be the only possible mean of payment of train fares in Netherlands from late 2012. This is 6 months after the initially planned phase-out of paper tickets on inter-city trains.

Local public transportation systems are also implementing the same card. In many regions, they are the only possible mean of using transit, save for an expensive single-trip disposable RFID card one can buy from conductors in certain trams and buses. A flat fee + distance-based fare is now applicable on transit, instead of the outdated and overdone zonal system in use before, based on mechanical stamps of cards market with strips.

Only exceptions to the card requirement will be passengers using international train tickets that entitles travel with NS trains for part of the journey and those using rail passes.
As usual anything that makes transit less attractive is heralded as progress by suburbanist...
 
#242 ·
I love the idea of the OV-chipcard, but there is certainly room for improvement.
There are a lot little annoyances that i didn't have when using the Octopus card in Hong Kong.

Just to learn from example:

Make the anonymous card cheaper. € 7.50 is too much. Make it € 5.00 at most. Don't force people to get the € 2.00 registered one. Also make it a "borg": when people hand their card back in, make them get their € 5.00 (or € 7.50 as it is now) back.

Keep the card valid till it breaks. The Octopus card is valid forever, why does the OV-Chipcard have to be any different? And if they really have technical reasons for the short validity, then at least let people hand in their expired cards to get their € 7.50 back.

Make an anonymous card for children and senior citizens. There is an Octopus card like this, and it would be like the old "pink" strippenkaart that we already had. There's no reason not to do this: if people don't want to pay, there's already ways to do that. They won't get a "pink OV-Chipcard" just to pay less. They would still be screwed when being checked, as they would be with a pink strippenkaart.

Make it easier to charge. In Hong Kong all you have to do is hop into a 7/11, put your card on a pad, give the person behind the desk some money and they will charge it onto your card. In The Netherlands the equivalent could be the places where they now have those yellow "charging stations", which accept no cash: Albert Heijn, Primera, etc. They will be happy to receive customers at the desk, since Primera owners have already complained about losing customers because they no longer have to come to the desk to buy a strippenkaart, where they usually also buy other things while they are there.

Make the beeps at check-in and check-out louder, make the message on the screen more clear.
During rush-our in the Amsterdam metro, it's basically impossible to hear and see whether your card checked out, or whether you're just walking through the door opened by the person in front of you. It's really annoying when bad design like this costs you 4 euros. It hasn't cost me money yet, but it has cost me time: the check-in gate didn't give me any message whether i had been checked in, so i had to go back to one of the blue poles to see... i had been checked in succesfully. Thanks for telling me.
So: make sure your machines work, and make sure they work ergonomically.

Make the paper cards cheaper. Right now there is a one-hour card for public transport in Amsterdam, which costs € 2,60. This is a good price for someone who has to travel for one hour, but for someone who only wants to go 1 or 2 stops and otherwise never uses public transportation, this is insane. Make a half-hour card for € 1,30.
 
#243 ·
I'm with you. I don't see why we had to reinvent the wheel and then proceed to come up with a worse design when we might have just copied a perfectly functioning system from elsewhere in the world.

But of course by the same token we might have just asked the French to build our highspeed railway line and get some of their trains 2nd hand and on the cheap. But nooo, we had to do it all ourselves. And **** it up. :eek:hno:
 
#246 ·
The biggest (and only, if you think about) failure of the OV-chipcard is that it misaligns the burdens and costs of implementation, the transitory costs that come with the incredibly stupid decision to develop a system from scratch instead of adopting Oyster. Examples:
-Studentenkaart administrative failures.
-Costs of 'forgetting' to check out.
-Confusion created by the multiple cards needed for specific-operator discount fares.

These are not theoretical problems like K_'s, but actualy, real observed problems. The problem is that the costs for these things are now burdens on the user instead of the operator. That's bad for two reasons.

(1) It's a cost to those users, which is unfair, creates a backlash against the system as a whole which leads to costly delays--for example the parliamentary response.

(2) More importantly, aligns economic incentives wrong, as those able to fix things have pretty small incentives to change stuff. It earns them money, after all. But even when taking a more nuanced, less conspiracy-theory view, it's about priorities, about executives and management pushing things through, and about private sector taking a stance and just going to fix something.

TLS are complete ****heads, so much is clear. Connexion and Arriva have exited the organisation because of that reason. Left is a bunch of bureaucrats and consultants without any private sector incentives, or monetary incentives at all, to do a decent job. More positively framed: if Connexion and Arriva were losing millions a year because of TLS failures, those failures would be fixed already. That's the failure of the OV-chipcard.
 
#248 · (Edited)
^^^
It just takes a generation to get used with the Chipkaart. The current generation already use the Studenten OV Chipkaart (students are traveling for free). They don't use papers-tickets for any public transportation anyway. So in the future they don't know better.

In the old days we had ticket counters with personals. Now we have ticket machines. In the beginning everybody was complaining that the counters were replace by machines. But today nobody complains anymore.

I guess only the main stations with cities 150.000+ inhabitants have a personal ticket-counter, that's only is used by elderly people or tourist.
 
#253 ·
How much do you have to pay more for a ticket if you buy in the train? I had a lot of trouble buying a ticket in the netherlands because the machines don't accept notes =O only coins and credit cards, and maybe half of them not even coins ...
 
#254 ·
You can't buy a ticket on board anymore. If the conductor comes, and you don't have a ticket whatever the reason you are a fare evader.
If you can identify yourself you can aply for an "uitstel van betaling", which means you don't have to pay the fine immediately, but can first appeal the fine, giving the reason for not having a ticket. And if you did indeed have a valid reason (not having enough coins for the ticket vending machine is not a valid reason) the fine might be waved.
 
#259 ·
:eek:hno:
When I went to Hongkong you could borrow a cheap rechargeable card at the airport suitable for all kind of public transport and even for vending machines throughout the city. Back at the airport a week later I could get a total refund of the bail and the money leftover on that card. Is it really that hard to go to a random Asian Metropolis and copy their public transport system?
 
#261 ·
A single fare in Netherlands could be far more expensive than in Hong Kong. Think of a Schiphol-Groningen trip, nothing absurd at all. It costs € 23. If one could grab a card for - say - € 10, and check-in to Groningen, one could just ditch the card upon arrival in Groningen, instead of having to top up money before checking-out.

As far as all stations, even minor ones, are not gated (something that will not happen, unfortunately, I think gated stations are safer, more modern, and keep people for going to the platforms if they are not travelling, reducing crowding), you need to have a sufficient high balance on your card to check-in. It should be the maximum fare (€ 23,50 for 2nd class travel).

But a refund scheme should operate at the airport. Maybe some kiosks that give money back when you feed your card back in.
 
#262 ·
^^That makes sense. So you imply that the free entrance to the platforms is the main obstruction for introducing such a system? Many stations have already invested in gates standing there unused for many years now. Some stations like Schiedam Centrum have had operating gates in the past. I wonder how much longer it will take before all stations are equipped with gates and are operating.
 
#267 ·
Rotterdam Centraal has a change machine where you can exchange notes for coins for the ticket machines, but no doubt these aren't available at many stations and are no good for fares which aren't an exact number of euro.

Otherwise, can prepaid chipknips be used at NS ticket machines? You'd probably still end up with some money left on it by the time you went of course but not so bad as an OV-Chipkaart.
 
#268 ·
new OV Terminals (PT Terminals)
Currently the four largest trainstations in the Netherlands are in construction.
Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht.
When the stations are finished they will renamed in Public Transportation Terminals

Amsterdam CS


Rotterdam CS


The Hague CS


Utrecht CS


Amsterdam Centraal Station
start 2003-2013 (the new metro 2017)
Huge renovation
New busplatform
New metrostation (metro north-south line)

Current situation


Uitgraven bouwput voor de westelijke entree van de nieuwe metroverdeelhal

Future rendings





New metrostation



Dag van de bouw 2011, Kleine selectie van de foto's

1. Het prachtige dak van de het station

11-05-28 Dag van de bouw 2011 002 by The Engineer 023, on Flickr

2. De wand waar straks de metro doorheen rijdt.

11-05-28 Dag van de bouw 2011 003 by The Engineer 023, on Flickr

3. Overzicht waarbij de posities van de nog te maken schuine kolommen goed te zien zijn. (telkens tussen de 2 stalen kolommen en op de schuine betonblokken)

11-05-28 Dag van de bouw 2011 006 by The Engineer 023, on Flickr
New metrotunnel placed underneath the station
Mijn dank gaat wederom naar Wuppeltje en de Dienst Noord/Zuidlijn voor het regelen van perstoegang tot het ponton en Overhoeks. Ik heel veel foto's kunnen maken, hier een selectie met een paar worden .
17 nu alleen nog een grote bocht om recht op de ingang van de sluis te komen te liggen.

18

19. En hij staat recht.


Ik heb het dus niet meer afgewacht totdat de tunnel helemaal in de sluis was gevaren.Maar ja, ondanks de vroege ochtend en de regen was het toch een mooie ervaring om het allemaal van iets dichterbij, of beter gezegd van hogerop te kunnen zien tussen alle cameraploegen, fotografen en de medewerkers van de bouwbedrijven/gemeente. Ik zal later ook nog een paar extra foto's plaatsen.
New busplatform



New docks for the public transporationsferries



Rotterdam Centraal Station
Start 2004-2013
Complete new trainstation
New metro line to The Hague Centraal Station

Old building just before the demolition (in the front the construction of the new metrostation)



Future rendings







Current situation
^^ Jammer dat men er dan niet voor kiest om een veel groter oppervlak met zonnecellen te installeren.
Zal wel een budgetkwestie zijn geweest.

vandaag geschoten:
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10
 
#277 ·
What have you got against interrail?
Well, I think that we all know the answer to that =D Suburbanist is a pro-road fanatic whose hobby is trolling the rail forums in skyscrapercity. He comes here just to propose non-sensical ideas created to harm rail users and make driving look better or else cheer when companies (like NS) enact such idiotic proposals (like dropping paper ticker). He clearly says that he doesn't use trains, because he prefers to drive, and yet he has very strong ideas about how people should use trains (actually he would rather prefer that they don't use). Basically he supports everything which makes rail usage less convenient, more complex, more expensive or else less attractive. Dropping Interrail goes in line with that, so that's why he supports dropping it.
 
#278 ·
cheer when companies (like NS) enact such idiotic proposals (like dropping paper ticker). He clearly says that he doesn't use trains, because he prefers to drive, and yet he has very strong ideas about how people should use trains (actually he would rather prefer that they don't use). Basically he supports everything which makes rail usage less convenient, more complex, more expensive or else less attractive. Dropping Interrail goes in line with that, so that's why he supports dropping it.
NS is becoming more business oriented, a smart card create more opportunities to extract more money from passenger. I have nothing against rail transport as infrastructure, I have everything against diverting funds from road to rail project. But I'm the biggest support of profitable freight and passenger rail operations and high-speed, airline-style priced rail.

Complexity = opportunities for price discrimination = opportunities to earn money and be more competitive and profitable.

As I always wrote, I think infrastructure is something for governments to take care directly or indirectly, and that includes rail. What I can't cope with are operations of vehicles done by government entities or monopolies auctioned in blocks to private operators with few commercial freedom to set prices, routes etc. In essence, I want to kill the idea of a network of trains that must be coordinated, and leave the idea of a network of tracks, modern, high-speed, state-of-the-art signaled, that any private party can use. Like air or road or water transport.

I want to bring competition, for the sake of competition and choice, even if it degrades service level, for ideological reasons (I'm against state-sponsored monopolies). As a technology, modern trains are quite cool. As a monopoly-based system, it is a curse, a cancer on the economic freedoms that need to be dismantled. But that doesn't mean ripping out tracks or demolishing stations, just dismantling the operational framework and the very concept of a service networks centrally planned. They did it with airlines in the 1980s/1990s, before that time air travel was tightly regulated, national carriers had monopolies, fares were fixed, in many countries schedules of domestic flights were "timed" to offer connections with international flights etc. Free markets gave us Ryanair, Easyjet and the ability to travel to Norway or Portugal paying peanuts.
======

In that sense of infrastructure, not vehicles, Pro-Rail TRACK network is abysmal: it uses ATB, an outdated system that can't cope with speeds faster than 140 km/h. The should deploy ERTMS-2 in 5 years throughout the network, which could easily allow speed-up of trains as many grade-crossings have been already removed and alignments, well, it is most a flat country here with straightened tracks, so, signaling allowing, not many track improvements would be required to put many lines running at 220 km/h. Yet, they are dropping the ball cancelling projects like the Zuiderzee line to Groningen and Germany.

Is NS no longer going to sell e-tickets too? I can't imagine that NS would be the only railway in Western Europe that doesn't sell tickets via the internet...
You can buy e-tickets in the future, I suppose, but you will have to load them in you OV Chipkaart. The smart card is already the medium of carrying of many discount plans, student free transport passes, senior concessions etc. So, once the interface is dealt with, the card will be the universal carry of all rail products.

A colleague of mine told me that German (DB) trains operating regional lines into Netherlands will be soon fit with OV Chipkaart check-in machines inside the trains used in those routes. Therefore, it will be possible for passengers travelling to/from Neteherlands to use OV Chipkaart to pay for the Dutch part of their journey.

What have you got against interrail?
It is a financially detrimental product that lost its reason for existence since the international rail market was liberalized. By financial detrimental I mean: rational use of rail for travel will usually mean advanced discount tickets + some national passes will provide cheaper travel. Those using passes are only making a good deal if they are overusing the network. And if so, if they are using rail for impractical journeys, or to travel 500km every day, they should pay accordingly. It would be like Shell selling a "free refuel" card that allows people who want to drive 3.000km in 5 days, like me, and taking a financial hit.

The bottom line is: I see passengers as costumers, as money pits to be dug out of their wallets and pay more if possible. I don't see them as using an essential service when they are travelling long distance, like it were health care or tertiary education.
 
#282 ·
If ETCS is really planned, first NS will need to have trains that can run on ETCS. I can just imagine ProRail finally installing ETCS, after which no trains can run on those tracks :p

Same goes for 25kV.... you'll need trains that can run on both 25kV and 1500V, and as of now, i don't think they have any (not counting Thalys, Fyra and ICE trains).
 
#283 ·
If ETCS is really planned, first NS will need to have trains that can run on ETCS. I can just imagine ProRail finally installing ETCS, after which no trains can run on those tracks :p
Usually ETCS is installed in phases, in a way that allows existing stock to keep running on the network. An example is how the SBB is doing it: They are replacing the physical layer of their existing TPS with one that uses ETCS hardware, but keeps the existing "software". Once the whole network and all rolling stock has the new hardware they will roll out the new software, and have the whole network running on ETCS. But that will not happen for a few years...

Same goes for 25kV.... you'll need trains that can run on both 25kV and 1500V, and as of now, i don't think they have any (not counting Thalys, Fyra and ICE trains).
The latest generation of trains NS bought are prepared for running under 25kV. All that is needed is adding some equipment, for which the place has already been reserved.
Anyway, making rolling stock that is capable of running both under AC and DC is rather straightforward nowadays, so much that when NMBS ordere new locomotives from Siemens they had to specifically request that the 15Kv AC capabilities be removed... By default both Bombardier and Siemens now build locomotives that can accept any common overhead supply in Europe.
 
#284 ·
The VIRM and the SLT sets are all prepared for 25 kV, all older trains aren´t.

As for the ETCS, at first it will be installed next to the current ATB. This will happen on the Amsterdam-Utrecht line and on the Hanzeline, Lelystad-Zwolle. This will mean that all the rolling stock will be able to run on these lines, and only the rolling stock with ETCS will use ETCS.

There currently are no further plans to implement ETCS on the entire network. Such a big investment is impossible right now with the current political climate that favors new roads over big railway investments. All the big projects that are under construction right now were all decided by earlier cabinets.
 
#285 ·
There currently are no further plans to implement ETCS on the entire network. Such a big investment is impossible right now with the current political climate that favors new roads over big railway investments. All the big projects that are under construction right now were all decided by earlier cabinets.
I guess there are plans to implement ECTS on the Utrecht-Arnhem route also, as it is the route used by fast German trains. Track is being improved here and there.

The cancellation of projects like Zuiderzeelijn and High Speed Ost was decided on the previous cabinet AFAIK.

Projects being floated like Breda-Oosterhout-Gorichem-Utrecht railway would depend on provinces chipping money in, but they'd rather improve the road network as it delivers more mobility per euro.
 
#286 ·
The Zuiderzeelijn and the HSL Oost were axed because of the problems with the HSL Zuid and the Betuweroute, all the political parties where scared to start another big project. It's more the smaller projects, like the doubling of the line to Almere that are being scaled down by this government. In the same category you also see the cuts on the urban transport, that will result in a reduction of connections between the train and the bus.

The current policies for new roads are just political decisions, there no rational decision making behind it based on mobility studies. It's just to keep the voters happy and distract then from all the other spending cuts at all the other departments like education and healthcare.
 
#287 ·
The Zuiderzeelijn and the HSL Oost were axed because of the problems with the HSL Zuid and the Betuweroute, all the political parties where scared to start another big project.
The Betuweroute is exceeding its target. Almost 600 trains/week are using it nowadays, to the point the line to Emmerich (Germany) is almost saturated and can't handle many more trains.
 
#297 ·
I think 10 years is a reasonable amount of time for the amount of work that has to be done in Denmark. They're dealing with 3.200 km of track that needs work (about half the amount of track in the Netherlands) and they're going to replace systems that sometimes even date back until pre-World War 1.

The Danish programme has started in 2009 and planned completion is in 2021. The total cost of the programme will be € 3,2 billion. This includes track, control centers and vehicle retrofitting. You can find out more in this brochure.

Netherlands shoud embark in a conversion program during 5 years, raising trackage fees to pay for part of it and having ProRail taking debt to finance the rest.
I agree with you that it's time for action as the current equipment is aging, and ERTMS has matured enough for it to be usable. However, 5 years is too short of a timeframe when offset against the amount of track ProRail maintains: 6500 km. By taking a look at the Danish example, I think finishing by 2025/2030 is a more reasonable timeframe.
 
#301 ·
So far there is only 1 line in the Netherlands that has ERTMS installed: the track section between Amsterdam Bijlmer ArenA and Utrecht Centraal. After lots of delays and technical problems, Bombardier finally got it working. Now there's next to no rolling stock available that can use ERTMS.

10 SLT trains and 10 VIRM trainsets will be fitted with the necessary ERTMS-equipment, for test runs. Furthermore, the ICE-3 trainsets will be retrofitted with ERTMS. Last week, ICE-3 4610 was making rounds through the Netherlands to test ETCS balises. I've snapped a picture of the ICE-3 as it entered Breda:


ICE 4610 ("Frankfurt am Main") uit Roosendaal by Alex van Herwijnen, on Flickr
 
#303 ·
I think he's talking about the "regular" rail system.

HSL-Zuid and the Betuwelijn both are equipped with ERTMS, but no regular trains run on those lines.

The Hanzelijn will also have ERTMS alongside the national signalling system, but that line won't be in service until december 2012.


By the way Alex, is anything known about the timeline on those 10 SLTs and VIRMs? And will it change the schedule or travel time at all (assuming trains will be able to go 160 km/h between Bijlmer and Utrecht, and can ride with smaller gaps in between).
 
#307 ·
Breaking up rail network will reduce delays, says rail operator

Breaking up rail network will reduce delays, says rail operator

Breaking up the national rail network into separate chunks and putting services out to tender will reduce delays, according to research by network operator ProRail quoted in Thursday's Volkskrant.

This is because services will not be so interdependent, reducing the domino effect of delays, ProRail is quoting as saying.

Earlier, researchers at Erasmus University in Rotterdam calculated dividing up the railway network into smaller franchises would save the government €210m. That research was carried out at the request of private rail operators, the paper says.

Private rail firms such as Arriva and Connexxion are angry that the state-owned NS was given a 10 year operating licence in 2005. They currently offer rail services on the network fringes only but are lobbying hard to have the system changed.

Transport minister Melanie Schultz has pledged to publish her proposals for the post 2015 railway system 'after the summer'.
 
#309 ·
#310 ·
^^ Thanks for the info.

In any case, I think breaking up NS in 6 different franchises would be a good thing, regardless of which timetable will be operated:

- one for InterCity trains
- one for local trains within the Amsterdam-Haalem-Den Haag-Rotterdam-Gouda-Utrecht-Amersfoort ring
- one for regional trains in Noord Brabant and Zeeland
- one for regional trains in Limburg, Overjissel and Gelderland
- one for regional trains in Noord Holland, Utrecht and Zuid Holland not covered on the second one
- one for regional trains in Frisland, Groningen and Drenthe

This would exclude currently leased lines and HSL Zuid.

That way, we could have, for instance, Virgin Netherlands Trains, more Veolia-operated trains, DB-operated trains etc.

But all of this is on the realist side. I'd rather see the liberalization of Dutch railway market for InterCity trains at least.
 
#311 ·
In my opinion, the HSL-Zuid should be integrated with the rest of the intercity network, and not operated as a seperate line. The current situation is that the HSL is in hands of a different company (altho it belongs to NS Groep N.V.) and that alone gives enough problems when a Fyra or Thalys train breaks down.

At least now passengers can easily change trains and use Fyra or the conventional route when there's a disruption on the other route. If HSL-Zuid would be tendered to a different party than the one operating the regular InterCity services, this flexibility is definitely gone.

On the other hand, competition on Amsterdam - Schiphol - Rotterdam would make sure to keep the direct IC connection (which takes 20 minutes longer but is cheaper) intact, instead of sacrificing it for more Fyra trains.

Furthermore, I pretty much agree with your plan: tendering the intercity net seperately from regional trains gives more power to the local authorities, who can then in turn focus on realizing passenger growth by doing more integration between local transport and train transport, as opposed to competing with rail services. In the end, this might result in a growth of regional public transport usage (both bus and regional rail), acting as a feeder to the intercity net.

However, splitting up the railway network into smaller franchises needs a regulating body that oversees quality of services provided throughout the network, that passengers can complain to.

Also, some of the services currently provided by NS should be handed over to an independant body. To mind comes the distribution of tickets and passes, travel information, perhaps even management of railway stations and property around it.
 
#312 ·
In my opinion, the HSL-Zuid should be integrated with the rest of the intercity network, and not operated as a seperate line. The current situation is that the HSL is in hands of a different company (altho it belongs to NS Groep N.V.) and that alone gives enough problems when a Fyra or Thalys train breaks down.
Well, I think one could consider even breaking the IC network in two or three groups, and making HSL Zuid part of one of those groups.
The main purpose of this breakup would not be to have them compete for passengers (we keep tariffs integrated) but to be able to benchmark them agains each other. That is the only way to find out what the right amount of subsidie or concession charge is.

Parallel to that one could free the bus market. Let the low end of the market be served by cheap long distance buses, just like in the UK.
 
Top