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Is multiculturalism still working in London?

27K views 466 replies 57 participants last post by  Rain Drops 
#1 · (Edited)
I'll put my cards on the table. I am a big supporter of immigration. Economically and demographically we need it and by and large one of the best qualities of London is its healthy mixture of different people and cultures. I am married to once such immigrant and am raising a son to appreciate both his parents cultures.

However, the article below shook me because although my initial reaction was to consider it a racist rant, I can't help think that there is a genuine issue here. Is the melting pot turning into a mosaic? It is hard not to notice that different communities are becoming increasingly entrenched.

If it is a problem of perception we need to deal with it. If people wrongly feel they are being driven out of their homes we need to find a way of stopping them feeling that way. Just calling them a racist wont help at all. On the other hand, if we are seeing an entrenchment into ethnic ghettos we need to prevent that too. What we shouldn't do is simply throw the doors shut. We need immigration and we need it to work.

Just interested to hear what people living here think. Is it an issue at all? If so what should we do? Or are the people like the writer below simply xenophobic racists who are unable to adapt to a changing world?

'I feel like a stranger where I live’

As new figures show 'white flight' from cities is rising, one Londoner writes a provocative personal piece about how immigration has drastically changed the borough where she has lived for 17 years

"When you go swimming, it’s much healthier to keep your whole body completely covered, you know.” The Muslim lady behind the counter in my local pharmacy has recently started giving me advice like this. It’s kindly meant and I’m always glad to hear her views because she is one of the few people in west London where I live who talks to me.

The streets around Acton, which has been my home since 1996, have taken on a new identity. Most of the shops are now owned by Muslims and even the fish and chip shop and Indian takeaway are Halal. It seems that almost overnight it’s changed from Acton Vale into Acton Veil.

Of the 8.17 million people in London, one million are Muslim, with the majority of them young families. That is not, in reality, a great number. But because so many Muslims increasingly insist on emphasising their separateness, it feels as if they have taken over; my female neighbours flap past in full niqab, some so heavily veiled that I can’t see their eyes. I’ve made an effort to communicate by smiling deliberately at the ones I thought I was seeing out and about regularly, but this didn’t lead to conversation because they never look me in the face.

I recently went to the plainly named “Curtain Shop” and asked if they would put some up for me. Inside were a lot of elderly Muslim men. I was told that they don’t do that kind of work, and was back on the pavement within a few moments. I felt sure I had suffered discrimination and was bewildered as I had been there previously when the Muslim owners had been very friendly. Things have changed. I am living in a place where I am a stranger.

I was brought up in a village in Staffordshire, and although I have been in London for a quarter of a century I have kept the habit of chatting to shopkeepers and neighbours, despite it not being the done thing in metropolitan life. Nowadays, though, most of the tills in my local shops are manned by young Muslim men who mutter into their mobiles as they are serving. They have no interest in talking to me and rarely meet my gaze. I find this situation dismal. I miss banter, the hail fellow, well met chat about the weather, or what was on TV last night.

More worryingly, I feel that public spaces are becoming contested. One food store has recently installed a sign banning alcohol on the premises. Fair enough. But it also says: “No alcohol allowed on the streets near this shop.” I am no fan of street drinking, and rowdy behaviour and loutish individuals are an aspect of modern British ''culture’’ I hate. But I feel uneasy that this shopkeeper wants to control the streets outside his shop. I asked him what he meant by his notice but he just smiled at me wistfully.

Perhaps he and his fellow Muslims want to turn the area into another Tower Hamlets, the east London borough where ''suggestive’’ advertising is banned and last year a woman was refused a job in a pharmacy because she wasn’t veiled.

On the other hand, maybe I should be grateful. At least in Acton there is just a sign in a shop. Since the start of the year there have been several reports from around London of a more aggressive approach. Television news footage last week showed incidents filmed on a mobile phone on a Saturday night, in the borough of Waltham Forest, of men shouting “This is a Muslim area” at white Britons.

The video commentary stated: “From women walking the street dressed like complete naked animals with no self-respect, to drunk people carrying alcohol, we try our best to capture and forbid it all.”

Another scene showed hooded youths forcing a man to drop his can of lager, telling him they were the “Muslim patrol” and that alcohol is a “forbidden evil”. The gang then approached a group of white girls enjoying a good night out, telling them to “forbid themselves from dressing like this and exposing themselves outside the mosque”.

Worse, though, is film footage from last week, thought to have been taken in Commercial Street, Whitechapel, which showed members of a group who also called themselves a “Muslim patrol” harassing a man who appeared to be wearing make‑up, calling him a “bloody ***”. In the video posted on YouTube last week, the passer-by is told he is “walking through a Muslim area dressed like a ***” and ordered to get out. Last Thursday, police were reported to have arrested five “vigilantes” suspected of homophobic abuse.

There are, of course, other Europeans in my area who may share my feelings but I’m not able to talk to them easily about this situation as they are mostly immigrants, too. At Christmas I spoke to an elderly white woman about the lack of parsnips in the local greengrocer, but she turned out to have no English and I was left grumbling to myself.

Poles have settled in Ealing since the Second World War and are well assimilated, but since 2004 about 370,000 east Europeans have arrived in London. Almost half the populations of nearby Ealing and Hammersmith were born outside the UK. Not surprisingly, at my bus stop I rarely hear English spoken. I realise that we can’t return to the time when buses were mainly occupied by white ladies in their best hats and gloves going shopping, but I do feel nostalgic for the days when a journey on public transport didn’t leave me feeling as if I have only just arrived in a strange country myself.

There are other “cultural differences” that bother me, too. Over the past year I have been involved in rescuing a dog that was kept in a freezing shed for months. The owners spoke no English. A Somali neighbour kept a dog that he told me he was training to fight, before it was stolen by other dog fighters. I have tried to re-home several cats owned by a family who refuse to neuter their animals, because of their religion.

In the Nineties, when I arrived, this part of Acton was a traditional working-class area. Now there is no trace of any kind of community – that word so cherished by the Left. Instead it has been transformed into a giant transit camp and is home to no one. The scale of immigration over recent years has created communities throughout London that never need to – or want to – interact with outsiders.

It wasn’t always the case: since the 1890s thousands of Jewish, Irish, Afro-Caribbean, Asian and Chinese workers, among others, have arrived in the capital, often displacing the indigenous population. Yes, there was hateful overt racism and discrimination, I’m not denying that. But, over time, I believe we settled down into a happy mix of incorporation and shared aspiration, with disparate peoples walking the same pavements but returning to very different homes – something the Americans call “sundown segregation”.

But now, despite the wishful thinking of multiculturalists, wilful segregation by immigrants is increasingly echoed by the white population – the rate of white flight from our cities is soaring. According to the Office for National Statistics, 600,000 white Britons have left London in the past 10 years. The latest census data shows the breakdown in telling detail: some London boroughs have lost a quarter of their population of white, British people. The number in Redbridge, north London, for example, has fallen by 40,844 (to 96,253) in this period, while the total population has risen by more than 40,335 to 278,970. It isn’t only London boroughs. The market town of Wokingham in Berkshire has lost nearly 5 per cent of its white British population.

I suspect that many white people in London and the Home Counties now move house on the basis of ethnicity, especially if they have children. Estate agents don’t advertise this self-segregation, of course. Instead there are polite codes for that kind of thing, such as the mention of “a good school”, which I believe is code for “mainly white English”. Not surprising when you learn that nearly one million pupils do not have English as a first language.

I, too, have decided to leave my area, following in the footsteps of so many of my neighbours. I don’t really want to go. I worked long and hard to get to London, to find a good job and buy a home and I’d like to stay here. But I’m a stranger on these streets and all the “good” areas, with safe streets, nice housing and pleasant cafés, are beyond my reach. I see London turning into a place almost exclusively for poor immigrants and the very rich.

It’s sad that I am moving not for a positive reason, but to escape something. I wonder whether I’ll tell the truth, if I’m asked. I can’t pretend that I’m worried about local schools, so perhaps I’ll say it’s for the chance of a conversation over the garden fence. But really I no longer need an excuse: mass immigration is making reluctant racists of us all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9831912/I-feel-like-a-stranger-where-I-live.html
 
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#45 ·
Ebeneezer_Goode said:
Is that the depth of thought you've put into this issue? Sounds like someone from the BNP might say it, so it must be bullshit? People like you are the problem my friend. Even if she's racist, which I see little indication of, the points should be disputed on their own merit. If they're valid coming from a liberal progressive, then they're valid coming from a fascist too.
No it's bullshit because it's racist and anecdotal. It also happens to resemble a lot of the stuff I've heard from the bnp.
 
#48 ·
No it's bullshit because it's racist and anecdotal.
It's disingenuous to dismiss it all as anecdotal. Clearly some is, of course it is, she's talking about her experiences and her changing neighbourhood. On the other hand she makes reference to incidents and trends that are there for everyone to see.

It also happens to resemble a lot of the stuff I've heard from the bnp.
Irrelevant. Or at least it should be.
 
#46 ·
"Is multiculturalism working?"

"No! I was walking down the road and a black person called me a ***** and ran away laughing"

Ok, and the flip side to that is that the fastest-growing race in the UK is "Mixed".

Rather than the ominous forebodings of strife, carnage, violence and mayhem with the obligatory rivers of blood Brits are instead welcoming foreigners, having red-hot how's your father and sweaty sex with immigrants and making babies. Unverifiable anecdote over cold hard facts.
 
#54 ·
I believe it is true, and the source is that last census.

I am a great believer in immigration into the country, where immigrants are prepared to work hard, pay taxes and try to learn the language and culture. For this reason i believe that the current debate concerning the EU is generally aside show, in that most EU immigrants do just that. It is not racist to point out that certain sections of the immigrant population for one reason or another find it hard to integrate. From what I can see, religion is a decisive factor there, and I agree that the banning of faith schools should be actively pursued to that end.
 
#55 ·
The critical point for any intelligent person is not racism or prejudice, but rather where to drawn the line with regard to cultural change. I.e., British morality, law, worldview, and culture in general, have their roots in certain European philosophical and religious traditions. Many of us may not be Christians but most of us stick roughly to New Testament ideas of what's right and what's wrong. Obviously that's a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea. The point is that our worldview and our society is based on certain ideas and ideals. Lots of those ideals are completely incompatible with Orthodox Islam, or Rastafarianism, or Communism, or any number of 'foreign' ideologies. Of course most of us believe in tolerating (or even welcoming) these groups, but generally we would prefer them to be minority groups. I, for one, would not like to see Sharia law applied to a constituency of the UK, even if the constituents democratically voted for it. My reasoning is that I believe in the aforementioned British/European cultural ideals, and I would not like to seem them eroded or expunged in the majority.

The question is: at which point exactly do we draw a line? I love living in a diverse city but I also attach a great deal of value to morality, law, responsibility to one's country, &c. That's why I think a debate on multiculturalism is interesting and important. Not because I'm "racist"/"prejudiced", but because I don't want this country to lose things that I value. And a post-hippie attitude of open arms without any thought simply doesn't cut it, because that's a lazy and careless (and selfish) way of approaching a problem with seriously high stakes.
 
#57 ·
Indeed it is these European ideals honed and moulded over centuries that allow others to bring with them their beliefs and faiths without prejudice or hindrance - unlike in many other parts of the world. Interesting, no- dangerous that people cannot see the connection between successful coexistence and prosperity.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Actually you've inferred a whole bunch of things that I never implied. Your worst logical fallacy is that you've connected my opinions with the opinions in the OP's article, when obviously there's no connection between us. I only mentioned Sharia law because it's a topic that everyone is familiar with, and it's been the topic of many BBC reports recently. I certainly did not paint an apocalyptic picture of impending threats - you just made that up. My example was intentionally extreme because I was identifying a point where almost everyone would 'draw the line', establishing an extreme pole as a reference point; thus, clearly the example was not meant to reflect a likely scenario.

My point is that the rapidly changing cultural composition of the UK could have adverse effects, and we need to identify the values that are important to us and make sure they are defended. If you deny that's a problem then I'm afraid you're either blind or you just don't care about the enshrined values and principles of this country. It doesn't take long for a culture to change beyond recognition and for the worse. See for example how the worst parts of American corporate culture or food culture have been adopted in this country and the effects of them. This isn't about Muslims or about immigration, it's about principles and culture in the broadest sense.
 
#64 ·
My point is that the rapidly changing cultural composition of the UK could have adverse effects, and we need to identify the values that are important to us and make sure they are defended. If you deny that's a problem then I'm afraid you're either blind or you just don't care about the enshrined values and principles of this country.
What, exactly, are you saying we need to defend and how is it being threatened please?

I would agree with gavrosh and mulattokid that parts of London feel mono-cultural and almost an enclave. It's terrifying sometimes when I visit Chiswick and only see braying toffs in stupid red trousers, but I don't think it's detrimental to London.
 
#61 ·
loathing, can you cite any actual examples of how your culture has been eroded, reduced, or adversely affected in anyway by immigration or multi culturalism?

It's a genuine question, it's similar to the claims from the CofE that allowing gay marriage would erode the sanctity of existing marriages. I simply don't understand that suggestion.

Is British culture diminished by immigration? How? What has changed, exactly?
 
#72 ·
Is British culture diminished by immigration? How? What has changed, exactly?
Sorry to butt in like this but I'd say that's pretty self-evident. Areas of all huge cities ends up with a totally displaced British culture, displaced mainly for various third world cultures, shops, restaurants, etc. These people live somewhere, and they displace the original populations in the flats they rent, own, or whatever they do.

It's fairly simple, don't really see how you cannot see this.
 
#63 · (Edited)
I would argue that British culture is enriched by multiculturalism. I would hate it otherwise. I would also argue that unchecked immigration is to the detriment of all, including newcomers. I would describe whole areas as having changed out of recognition.

An example of the detriment? I lived in Shepherds Bush until 2009. The place very quickly became a place of houses and flats converted into tiny one room bedsits housing vast numbers iterate peoples (I carried out the voter registration canvassing for the borough) Its like converting a whole street into cheap hotels. Property was very quickly bought up by unscrupulous Rachmanite landlords with unpronounceable names out to make lots of money. No resident was permanent, there is no community any more, no one takes an interest in the cleanliness of the street or local concerns. Peoples minds are on another home elsewhere and securing that homes future. This is just a place to work - like some great big gloomy factory. I even found the side of my house became a great secluded place for prostitutes to service the homesick new workers.

The worst initial problems were solved very quickly , but at great cost to the country. Shepherds Bus green became a huge refugee like camp with men looking for work sleeping out all night in their hundreds! They were often drunk but mostly harmless. This dissipated soon after the police and local authority moved into action. Still, my street remained an outside toilet until I moved. My friend had to bolt her front gate, causing her all sorts of difficulties. All this because of lack of planning.

This was one of the reasons why I sold up and moved out to the suburbs.

I was all in favour of unlimited borders in the EU until a few years ago. I don't think its a sensible plan now. I am very much in favour of planned immigration as immigration should be a positive experience for everybody - like the Australian system.
 
#65 ·
The shops used to be owned by local families that had owned them for generations and knew everyone around. Now they are owned by immigrants who employ people for short periods when they first come to the UK. People no longer get to know their local shopkeepers. That is one big loss to the community.

That's the case in Pompey anyway.
 
#66 ·
Well, planning plays a part in that, as mulattokid said. Unscrupulous landlords who don't care about their properties, so the poor people who live there may be being exploited by landlords who break the law, then the residents get criticised for living in such a run-down area!
 
#68 · (Edited)
@spindrift,

An argument about shifting culture and values is extremely difficult to make because it's not a science and yet it's extremely complicated. I don't have time to do such an argument justice. What I will say is that no evidence is needed to point out that this country's attitudes have shifted pretty dramatically with each new decade. If you look at cultures across the world historically, it is outside forces that cause the big shifts. Sometimes those shifts have been for the worse, sometimes for the better.

I think in Britain we have a pretty damn good society worth preserving (of course there are problems and things that should changed). So we should scrutinise outside forces of any kind and make sure they actually add to our society. We should not be shying away from debate for fear of being called names.
 
#74 ·
You think all of our beliefs and systems just sprung out of the ground?
I think a very large part of what being English means is our tolerant, fair-minded attitude. We are also naturally sanguine and unlikely to get excited, either with religious fervour or extreme politics. Calm. Polite. Not aggressively sarcastic.

My corner shop in E11 was run by Hindus. The family had a few properties around the area that the extended family renovated and occupied. My Polish housemate would chat to him in Hindi, she was doing Indian Studies, Poland and India having strong trade/cultural links. My neighbour was Irish, opposite was a muslim gentleman with 6 kids who worked at New Spitalfield Market and would give me boxes of fruit because I signed his wife's Home Office application. Elsewhere on the street were Australians, West Indians, South Africans, you could walk up Leytonstone High Road and hear a dozen different languages before you got to the tube. It's a rich tapestry, and it's also the ebb and flow of London, people arrive and depart, congregate and fracture and become immersed in the city and the community. I cannot think of any examples of how our traditions have been eroded.

Frankly, I'm more worried that in fifteen/twenty years the whole of East London will be like Docklands with anything left of the old East End being fake and for tourists.
 
#71 · (Edited)
And although I wouldn't use the word 'threat', an example of a potential problem is any group that refuses to assimilate to the bare minimum of our social system and values and language. Or any group that is extremely inward looking. Or groups not interested in community and responsibility. I'm not going name specific groups because my point is and always has been a general one: that we should scrutinise new people, ideas, and shifts introduced to this country and then debate them. I'm not interested in naming and shaming, but I am frustrated by people trying to shut down the debate but crying 'racism!' Or 'bigotry!'
 
#88 ·
^^ I have not stated that we should do our best to avoid mixing, I'm merely not "enamored" and in love with the idea of it.

Some people who are "enamored" with the idea of it, are so extreme that they label someone who are NOT "enamored" with the idea, as extremists and racists. This is of course laughable. Even more laughable when the case is that immigrant minorities take many measures to ensure especially their women do not mix with other types of people, while the original European inhabitants get their head filled up with tolerance, don't be racist, etc.

If you do not see the way this "skews" everything and destroys the "multicultural dream" to a very large degree, well then we live on different planets. Yes I have an issue with minorities mixing with women of my own origin, while they keep their own women locked and safe at home.

And that's just ONE SMALL aspect of it, one little thing, it's by NO MEANS the only reason why I have the opinions I have. But it's a small part of it.
 
#94 ·
Hmmm. I get the distinct impression that mulattokid is seeing something in dexter's replies that I am not.

You haven't caught him out, or exposed him...You really haven't. He is being quite reasonable.

Why should human beings mix? Why is it inevitable? Who is involved in this mixing and why? There is a heavy dose of frankly insulting implication, that only the best humans will pick a mate from a different race, and those who like their own kith and kin are wrong.

I couldn't give a shit whether we end up going through the melting pot or not...humanity does or doesn't and I'll be long gone in 100 years so why care?

Although religion is a backwards step for humanity, and rather retarded, and we should do our best to kill it off in the name of progress.
 
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