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Old April 29th, 2007, 10:46 PM   #1
CalleOchoGringo
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Is Bicentennial really the best place for Museum Park?

Ok ok... I know I'm gonna get burned at the stake for this one but it's all in the name of lively discussion right? First let me state what I believe to be true. We BADLY need more public parks here in the CBD of Miami and we also need a museum park as well (see near the bottom of my post).

HOWEVER...

Is using prime waterfront real estate like Bicentennial park really where we should be putting it? Many argue that if we change it into the proposed Museum park it would vastly increase usage. I guess because the museums would draw people and then the surrounding park would seal the deal. However we have tried to draw people to Bicentennial for years with renovations in the past and all for naught. It's just been one expensive waste of taxpayer money after another. Yeah yeah, I can just hear you now, saying "Yeah but THIS time there are museums and a PAC close by".

SO.

How many more Miamians do you think go to museums on the weekends rather than the beach. This is Miami people, not Boston. Much as we don't want to admit it, here most people are much more interested in body image and partying, not culture and academia (see Boston). I think that if we were to consolidate all our museums to Bicentennial and "re-parkify" it, we would see at best slightly higher usage of the museums and the park. Thats it. And I would argue that MOST of that increased usage came not from the redesign but as a side effect of more people living closer to the urban core and thus have free transportation to it.

Now, having said that what we SHOULD NOT do with it is this:
Anything that would make it private or exclusive to someone who could afford ownership (like hotels or condos). It should stay a public place, I just think it needs to be more pragmatically used for a Miami type environment. I also think we should still build a "museum park", just not on the prime waterfront. maybe tear down more of Overtown and build it there as we gentrify more of that area.

So what do you guys think? Or are you guys all just so optimistic about how well this Museum Park is going to work out with the "dumb masses" that live in Miami (yeah yeah I know I sound so Elitist here, but its from years of living cynically in Miami). Believe me I would love nothing more that to live in a city that would embrace something like this. But a little voice inside my head (I think its call experience) is telling me that this "Museum park" is going to go to waste, no matter how good of a plan it is. And IF that happens better that it happen away from the waters edge since we have such precious little left thats public. I for one just think the land could be better utilized than what they are planning and I am interested in hearing others options on what they think should be put there instead. Or am I'm just a crazy nut?

Some ideas:
- A water park?
- A mall with a theater (god knows we have enough worthless malls without theaters)?
- A *GASP* baseball stadium?
- A hydrofoil base (for commuting to the CBD on weekdays)?
- A heliport (hey New York's got one, why not us right)?
- A hydrofoil AND heliport base?

Cmon people get creative if your going to offer other suggestions. And keep in mind that any suggestion can also include a park attached to the remaining unused land.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 10:55 PM   #2
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Yes, it is the best location for Museum Park. It will become like the "Central Park" of Miami, yet on the water. Think what you want about theaters, but they are already building 2 or 3 in downtown/midtown right now.

True that tourists are very into going to the beach when they come to Miami, but some may want to go to museums and experience the culture and art of the area as well. And for residents, I'll admit I haven't been to the beach (as in actually sunbathing or going into the water, I've been to the area a lot) in over 3 years. I would much rather go to a museum than go to the beach, even though that's not what most tourists would say. I think having a nice park and museum center like that in downtown will really enrich the area in attractions and culture, and it should be done. Remember that the museums will only take up a small portion of the green space in Bicentennial Park, so there will just be a lot of nice waterfront park land to enjoy, so we won't be losing a lot of green space (a common misconception with the Museum Park idea).

Baseball stadium - Government center or orange bowl, there was never a real plan to have it at museum park, just an idea.

Water park - Give me a break. This is a world class city. Not Orlando. We don't need a water park in downtown. Maybe on Key Biscayne or Miami Beach, but not in the heart of the city.

Heliport - not a good location. Too close to the city and on prime land. I'd rather just see it stay a park than become a heliport or a hydrofoil base. Too much of a waste of waterfront property.

Good ideas, but the Museum Park idea is the best. Maybe consider some of those things in other locations, but I think they are doing what is right for the Bicentennial Park land.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 12:19 AM   #3
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CalleOchoGringo,

Good points indeed. I respect your view on this for sure. Could you elaborate on the water park idea? I would like to hear more about this. Did you mean like a Wet' N' Wild style flume ride type park?

Brad
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Old April 30th, 2007, 12:54 AM   #4
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CalleOchoGringo, I am in agreement that Museum Park would be much better located a few blocks away - keep all the green space we can since we're sure as anything not getting any more. Miami is always listed at the bottom of these big-city-green-space lists... Covering up the green when there's so much run down, unused, disgusting blocks so close just seems crazy.

It should be well planned though - tree shady spaces with chairs and places to lie out at lunch time for the down-town workers. Plus there's going to be thousands of people living right on top of it in the 4 larger condos across the road.

I seem to be in a minority of people who actually like to enjoy the outside here in Miami though.

-James.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 03:09 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesgood72 View Post
CalleOchoGringo, I am in agreement that Museum Park would be much better located a few blocks away - keep all the green space we can since we're sure as anything not getting any more. Miami is always listed at the bottom of these big-city-green-space lists... Covering up the green when there's so much run down, unused, disgusting blocks so close just seems crazy.
Exactly!! There's so much of Overtown yet to clean up. So many of those blocks can be used for green space. I also think that by pulling the parks inward toward the center of the downtown areas they become closer to everyone in the CBD and not just those living in the buildings across from the current Bicentennial park and that encourages usability. Why their's 2 whole blocks of vacant land just north of Mary Brickell village (between SW 7th and 8th St.) thats just perfect for making a little park out of. They just need to eliminate that street running through it. And how many more blocks are there near downtown with mostly vacant land and maybe one warehouse on it, that are ripe for making a park out of. And lets not forget all those spots along the Miami river that are being underutilized. I guess we will see soon how much Mayor Diaz means what he says about all that "green mayor" talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesgood72 View Post
I seem to be in a minority of people who actually like to enjoy the outside here in Miami though.
Nah, I enjoy it too and bike often myself, its just really hard to do in anything but the shade with this oppressive heat. Which is why I usually bike after 5-pm. Why just earlier today I was out flying myself. However it wasn't made of balsa, it was an ultralight from those guys on Key Biscayne. Man you gotta try that. It's the most beautiful and amazing flying out there, hands down! And they will fly you right up to the buildings downtown!!!
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Old April 30th, 2007, 04:05 AM   #6
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The two blocks of green space north of Mary Brickell Village is the metromover greenway I beleive. It is right under the metromover and is a nice little area that they should try and make into a park. I heard something about possibly trying to connect that land with the proposed "Brickell Park" on the bay, with the connector being a lushly landscaped street.

I think it's very important to have green space and I think they should maybe create some in SE Overtown near Logik Towers.....it would be a nice part of the Overtown revitalization project. Even if it's not all parks, just having nice trees and landscaping downtown makes a city a whole lot better than one with a bunch of empty concrete sidewalks, parking lots, and streets without green space.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 05:02 AM   #7
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BAYSIDE MARKET PLACE IS ALLREADY ON THE WATER SO NO NEED FOR MORE MEGA MALLS OR ANYTHING LIKE IT IN BICENTENNIAL PARK

THE REASON THE PARK HAS FAILED IN THE PAST IS LACK OF SECURITY AND USAGE...

THE MUSEUM'S ARE THE BEST PROSPECT FOR THIS PARK...

A WATER PARK? THIS IS DOWNTOWN MIAMI NOT ORLANDO... A WATER PARK WOULD BE GOOD AT THE SEAQUARIUM OR METROZOO BUT NOT BICENTENIAL PARK...
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Old April 30th, 2007, 05:18 AM   #8
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Rx, comparing what has happened in the past with the part is rediculous. With thousands of rich people living directly across the road from it, there's no way the situation will be the same.

I also have to say, you really can be quite arrogant with your style of posting! A little 'netiquette' might me a good thing to learn.

-James.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 09:41 AM   #9
Rx727sfl2002
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RICH PEOPLE GO TO MUSEUMS NOT WATERPARKS

I WOULD HAVE PREFERED THE PAC TO BE ON THE WATER I WILL SETTLE FOR TWO MUSEUMS INSTEAD...

TO THINK THAT MIAMI NATIVES HAVE NO CLASS IS IGNORANCE OBVIOUSLY THE PEOPLE HE HAS BEEN INTRODUCED TO HAVE NO REAL VALUE.

YOU MAKE THAT ENTIRE GREENSPACE AND I CAN GUARANTEE THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE USING THAT PARK WILL BE THE BUMS.


I LIVED IN MIAMI BACK IN 1980 MOVED TO NEW MEXICO AND NYC AND CAME BACK TO MIAMI IN 1985 AND HAVE SEEN WHAT IT WAS AND WHAT IS HAS BECOME. I HAVE TRAVELLED AND LIVED IN OTHER CITIES FOR WORK SUCH AS BOSTON, DALLAS, AND LA AND ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THE PARK IS MUSEUMS... IF IT WAS A LOT LARGER A NICE CONVENTION CENTER WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE....

I AM NOW APPROACHING 32 YEARS OLD AND I HAVE BEEN TO EVERY MUSEUM IN MIAMI AND THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF FLORIDA...

ETIQUETTE?SERIOUSLY...

www.salvadordalimuseum.org <---FOR THOSE WHO HAVENT BEEN

PS WHY SINGLE ME OUT WHEN EVERYONE ELSE SEEMS TO THINK THE SAME?

Last edited by Rx727sfl2002; April 30th, 2007 at 09:54 AM.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 10:02 AM   #10
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Yeah the Pac on the park would've been nice but I definetly think the museums are a good way to go as well. I worry where Ultra music fest. will be held now after they get buildt :S lol.
I think the museum park plan is a befitting match for bycentennial, CBD residents need somewhere pleasent to jog and do stuff like that. I for one would enjoy jogging with the biscayne wall towers casting a cool shadow over the park...
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Old April 30th, 2007, 01:39 PM   #11
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If Margaret Pace Park is any indication, they should do the same at Bicentennial. Maybe they should built an Aquatic Center, since the Miami seroiusly lacks a state of the art swimming facility. Yes there are pools here and there but no real place to train.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 03:07 PM   #12
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RX, as Havok said, look at Margaret Pace Park. That's extremely well used, mainly because of all the condos directly onto it. Surely, Bicentennial would be the same. There's going to be at least 1500 (?) units, a good percentage of whom will have dogs to walk... And want to go jogging, etc. As long as it's well lit, has good open green space, it'll be used. I wonder what they'll do to allow people to safely cross the road. A pedestrian bridge would be good. But probably traffic lights I guess.

Dont' get me wrong, it's not going to be the end of the world if the museums get built there, but as I keep saying - green space doesn't come back, and there's plenty of very close locations which could be revitalised by the buildings.

Did we ever find out what the plan was for parking for the museums, if they get built there?

That's just my opinion of course. Hopefully the commissioners will listen to us people and our opinions...

-James.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 05:06 PM   #13
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Just as many people will attend the museum as they do the Carnival Center. How well is that thing working out?
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Old April 30th, 2007, 05:33 PM   #14
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^ well remember both museums are well established and are just moving to a different location.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 05:36 PM   #15
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I think you should consider the explosion of visitiation at the DeYoung Museum in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park. The building by Herzog and DeMueron has quadrupled the visitor rate. When the art is as big as the building itself it great advertising, it actually creates visiotrs just to see he building. I think there will still be TONS of gren space that people will USE now. The buildings only reduce green space by about 25%. I feel certain that the green park will gain 10 or 20 times the use as Margaret Pace Park. Additionally, with the Biscayne Wall and Museum Park, and the Arena, Miami will finally have an urban showcase to be envied, and emulated by the entire country.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 05:58 PM   #16
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When I think Museum Park, I think of Sydney. Sydney has a very similar situation as Miami, the downtown area is right on the bay and they have their central park right next to it also on the bay with the Sydney Opera House and a couple small museums and look how much that area gets visited. I think the idea of Museum Park is great, it's just a shame that the museums will be taking precious green space, as the CBD greatly lacks green space.

Without the museums, I really don't see the park getting good usage, it's isolated and cut from a huge highway, an arena, the bay and an avenue on the north side of downtown. Honestly, the park couldn't be in a more awkward place. However, that's why the museums are key, to give people a reason to go to the park and if the metro station were to open up again, even better! I'm definitely for Museum Park, I think it would definitely work and it and would make Miami even more classy.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 06:08 PM   #17
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Sydney is a great example and I HOPE we can achieve buildings with the iconic status of the Sydney Opera House. It may be difficult with the height restrictions on the Museums. I think they are limited to three floors. (not saying they should be 20 stories, but it is a limiting factor) I think the Milwaukee Art Museum, on the water by Calatrava is another good example. I think they will be, and should be, thought of as sculpture in a public park. Not as a couple of buildings with some park next to it.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 06:16 PM   #18
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I hope that the museum will be spectacular waterfront sculpture in a public park.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 07:16 PM   #19
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There is so much green space, the museums are difficult to detect far off on the right side of the park, those are not the actual building designs , just place holders for the up coming buildings.

The park has been all but derelict for so long, except for the occasional staged event like Ultra. which used to be in Bayfront Park and can return there.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 08:14 PM   #20
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Thanks for the great pictures, diagrams, and analysis. I agree Museum Park will be great. It will get a lot more use than the PAC because it's really just two established museums re-locating, and therefore people already visit them and know about them, unlike the PAC situation.
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