The Manhattan Macau

[macau-invest]

Hi everybody

I own 2 high floor units at the Manhattan North Tower, Taipa. Just would like to know what it might sell for. Some agents recommend 6000 HK$/sft. The location is not as good as the oneCentral or Grandtai but for know the building especially the lobby and clubhouse is one of the best in Macau. Furthermore at what discount might it sell against the oneCentral or Grandtai. 20-30-40 % ?

Thank you

[onegrantai]

$6000/sf sounds pretty good, though you have to be mindful that as you have no view (I presume you only have a street view), and despite the good lobby and club house being the best in Macau for now, it will be inferior to the new developments those are coming on stream, thus in future it may not give people the feel good factor as it is currently achieving now.

But Macau seems a funny market for now, it seems that everything go up and down in the same pace, in that case you probably would not want to sell like most of the people who contribute to this forum (we are bulls here).

good luck

[macau-invest]

Actually both units have partly sea and mountain view and one unit the Macau skyline.

I am sure the 1C will be a world class developement but I am not so sure about the Grantai, great location but design wise it might become really kitschy - chinese gold mixed with renaissance and italian influences -
and feng sui wise they have cut down the mountain in half. Curious to see the outcome.

[macau-invest]

BTW I am not selling as Macau is running out of land and know what it can do to property prices. Time to pick up some property in Zhuhai at 1/3 the price.

[macau_now]

Originally Posted by macau-invest

BTW I am not selling as Macau is running out of land and know what it can do to property prices.

Just out on the news, the Government will start getting back the 100+ sites that were granted for construction and still remain undeveloped. Granted not all are suitable for residential apartments, but as you see, there is plenty of undeveloped land.

But even if there wasn't, how can one explain so many empty apartments and indeed blocks through Macau and Taipa? Lack of area to build new apartments will only be an issue after the existing thousands of empty apartments are being used...

[onegrantai]

Was doing some investigation on Kingsville recently, their average price for high floors wiht full Cotai view seems to be about $5000/sf, which I thought was reasonable.

Your option please as to location, view and building and relative pricing to Mahatten.

[Nongice626]

how are the laws towards foreigners in zhuhai?

[MacauVillager28]

Originally Posted by Nongice626

how are the laws towards foreigners in zhuhai?

For China in general, it is hard to invest if you are not resident in China. It is slightly easier if you based in Macau/HK, but it is still difficult (you are supposed to by only one unit, but you can get around this partly). There are also lots of paperwork for outsiders (eg in tax, sending money in/out). Not recommended for outsiders unless you live in HK/Macau. It may be easier getting exposure in other ways (eg property funds/stocks).

Also note outlook for China is cloudy - govt wants to stop prices going too high, and is also discouraging foreign investors (even or esp funds) as it has too much foreign currency/capital inflows/speculation.
Prices in Zhuhai have apparently been quite stable recently, due to casinos in Macau and Mecanese buying there, and is one of the better performing parts of China.

[FourSeasons]

Originally Posted by Nongice626

how are the laws towards foreigners in zhuhai?

What MacauVillager28 wrote is a good guide. But I had no problem investing in a Shanghai property a few years ago even though my base is in Singapore. But all the legal documents are in Chinese so if you know the language, it would be much easier. My agent told me that an American buyer who bought a few units of a development from her ended up hiring a translator to go through all the legal Sales and Purchase Agreement and that took up pretty much the whole business day.

[MacauVillager28]

FourSeasons is the master on this subject as he's done it..


I looked into China 2 years ago and was very tempted (and still am, but probably not yet and Zhuhai seems not a bad choice). Since then, I've read in the newspapers Beijing wanted to restrict purchases by foreigners (including HK, Taiwan and Macau) to only one unit. However, have also heard that some local govt (and developers) can bypass (ignore?) this - but this rule is strict in certain places, esp Beijing.
Hence, you need a lot of caution. Rules seem to vary or is partially implemented. Today there's a story in SCMP about property companies finding difficulties in finding money as the govt is clamping down on lending (and looks esp like property). Some big HK developers also went in recently but then were told they cannot send their money in to finance it !

I find this very off-putting for foreign investors. You may get great returns in China investing now, and can find a way to buy more properties, but there is a big risk the govt implements these rules more thoroughly. So I think this market is high risk (and probably not high return now). I think I may want to go in (esp Shenzhen/Zhuhai as this is close to HK) when the govt decides to relax its rules (probably when prices fall a bit or stable).

Maybe one day there is a big crash... often, the govt then changes its mind and relaxes its rules to support market. That may be a great time to go in.

[macau-invest]

I have been investing in zhuhai and have worked with www.zhuhai-apt.com, for the moment there are no restrictions on foreigners and some of the new projects like Huafa New Century and One Phoenix Hill (same architect as Vanke 17 Miles in shenzhen) are top class, even better than the ones in Macau. The RMB potential and the price difference vs Macau is just to big to ignore.

[paralelo70]

Visited today a friend living in unit E. Apartment is very nice (view is good too) and all facilities (ie gym, spa, lounge) look very good, well kept, clean--it is quite rare in Macau/China, especially because the building is already 2 to 3 years old.

[drbubb2]

Originally Posted by paralelo70

Visited today a friend living in unit E. Apartment is very nice (view is good too) and all facilities (ie gym, spa, lounge) look very good, well kept, clean--it is quite rare in Macau/China, especially because the building is already 2 to 3 years old.

3 years is hardly ancient.

It takes that long for some of these buildings to get rented up.

Macau "running out of land"?
Hardly. The are adding more land-fill all the time, and just took a lease on a neighboring island.
They may run out of buyers and/or tenants (willing to pay economic prices) before they run out of land.

Chances are, as we head into Q3-2010, you will regret not selling

[FourSeasons]

Originally Posted by drbubb2

Macau "running out of land"?
Hardly. The are adding more land-fill all the time, and just took a lease on a neighboring island.

You may want to know that the leasing of Hengqin Island is for building the new campus of University of Macau. It is not for residential development at all. And if my recollection is correct, Macau government has only auction land only 2 times since the 1999 handover.

Originally Posted by drbubb2

They may run out of buyers and/or tenants (willing to pay economic prices) before they run out of land.

You also may want to know as to the beginning of Q2-2010, Macau's gambling revenue grows 70% to record high compared to same period in April last year. GDP expected to grow more than 20% in the first half of this year. http://www.macaunews.com.mo/index.ph...id=99&Itemid=4 Government budget will be in huge surplus, potentially hitting new record again. Run out of tenants...you are arguing that record growth will not result in any growth in job employment.

[drbubb2]

Originally Posted by FourSeasons

You may want to know that the leasing of Hengqin Island is for building the new campus of University of Macau. It is not for residential development at all. And if my recollection is correct, Macau government has only auction land only 2 times since the 1999 handover..

Sure.
But it opens up new residential developments elsewhere (like Cotai South), and also allows development in and around the present campus

Good for the government, but less good for jobs. And let's see how sustainable those rises are

[FourSeasons]

Originally Posted by drbubb2

Sure.
But it opens up new residential developments elsewhere (like Cotai South), and also allows development in and around the present campus

I don't think residential development is allowed on the leasing part of Hengqin Island. And the leasing is only for 40 years, so even if it is allowed, no banks will want to finance it. And Cotai South has been part of Macau for years, so it runs counter to your argument that "adding land-fill". And residential development is not allowed in Cotai area. Even Sands is still having trouble to legalize the sale of time-shared service apartments in Four Seasons Hotel. And the truth is that Macau, unlike Hong kong and Singapore, hardly sell its land, so developers have to buy land from landowners, which is getting harder and harder.

Originally Posted by drbubb2

Good for the government, but less good for jobs. And let's see how sustainable those rises are

How can it be good for the government and be less good for jobs?
First, if the government has surplus, it can always spend to create jobs. Unemployment rate in Macau is very low, every resident actually gets cash HK$4000 or so annually from the government.
Second, if the revenue is good, the private sectors, whether it is the casino or other sector like retail or other services, will also want to expand to cater to this growth, that means adding jobs. That is why Sands will continue its project on Cotai Strip no.5 & 6, Galaxy resume its development of Galaxy Cotai. No. 5& 6 will create 10,000 jobs eventually, not so sure about Galaxy Cotai but a few thousands must be the minimum.
It simply runs counter to Economics 101 that there is strong economic growth but yet "less good" for job opportunities.