The Provincial Carbon Tax

[Quimby]

It seems the Carbon Tax will be costing cities, regional districts and school districts alot of money.

Vancouver is estimating over $1 million when in full effect.

Kamloops is six figures and the school district as eliminated 29 teaching postions in order to balance the budget. All these lower levels of government are being charged the tax but will not receive extra funds. This means that property taxes will be the main buffer. So much for revenue neutral.

Also, I always thought the governments could not tax other governments. It is unconstitutional. Am I wrong?

[deasine]

I didn't know about taxing other governments, but then this tax isn't aimed directly at the other governments are they?

People are going to complain for sure, but in the long run, this is worth it.

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by deasine

I didn't know about taxing other governments, but then this tax isn't aimed directly at the other governments are they?

People are going to complain for sure, but in the long run, this is worth it.

No, it is aimed at everyone, except for the top 1/3 of polluters. They are currently exempt.

However by making schools and health districts pay the tax, it amounts to a cut in their budgets provided by the provincial government. The fact that munis have to pay it is a de facto property tax increase.

Is it worth it? Norway's carbon tax is over 5 times BC's and only produced a 2% decrease in CO2.

[Eco E]

Originally Posted by deasine

I didn't know about taxing other governments, but then this tax isn't aimed directly at the other governments are they?

People are going to complain for sure, but in the long run, this is worth it.

I don't think it's aimed at local governments but its likely based on the tax from natural gas for heat and diesel for the busses. I agree that this tax is worth it--people can go on and hate but they're the same people that are complaining about high gas prices and they're driven an f35o and living in the burbs.

The fact is that is unacceptable with todays realities of climate change and oil shortages. This is all of our's earth and those that trash it and consume like there is no tomorrow should pay tax like no tomorrow; it only makes sense. People have got to wake up and realize that the have to make lifestyle choices like living closer to work or working closer to where you live or taking the bus if they can. Cheap fossil fuels are not a birthright and the world is just becoming aware of this.

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by Eco E

I don't think it's aimed at local governments but its likely based on the tax from natural gas for heat and diesel for the busses. I agree that this tax is worth it--people can go on and hate but they're the same people that are complaining about high gas prices and they're driven an f35o and living in the burbs.

The fact is that is unacceptable with todays realities of climate change and oil shortages. This is all of our's earth and those that trash it and consume like there is no tomorrow should pay tax like no tomorrow; it only makes sense. People have got to wake up and realize that the have to make lifestyle choices like living closer to work or working closer to where you live or taking the bus if they can. Cheap fossil fuels are not a birthright and the world is just becoming aware of this.

The problem with this tax is that it won't have an impact on carbon emissions. Norway's was 10x the tax and resulted in a 2% decrease. Is implementing a tax that will not accomplish its goal worthwhile?

The price of gas has been increasing at a rate far beyond the cost of the tax, but consumption as barely moved. The fact is all of these fuels are what economist call inelastic on the demand side. This means that people need the consumable and will therefore pay the price. Without providing people with alternatives or the means to acquire the current expensive alternatives, is equivalent to taxing breathing and expecting people to less. The bottom line is this will do nothing to reduce GHG, even the government expects consumption to continue to increase.

This tax also acts as a means to reduce budgets in education, healthcare and for municipalities. This has been accomplished via charging these entities the tax and will amount to the equivalent of millions cut from these starving programs. We can fight climate change without destroying our education and health services.

It is not a well thought out plan.

[Dimension]

School districts don't need buses. Its time to walk, take public transit, or get a ride from someone.

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by Dimension

School districts don't need buses. Its time to walk, take public transit, or get a ride from someone.

Yes, Kids in Kindergarten and Grade 1 are capable of those options. Let's be realistic, it's more environmentally friendly to bus the kids then have them dropped off by the parents.

[Dimension]

Originally Posted by Quimby

Yes, Kids in Kindergarten and Grade 1 are capable of those options. Let's be realistic, it's more environmentally friendly to bus the kids then have them dropped off by the parents.

What ever happened to the days when kids walked to school? I miss them.

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by Dimension

What ever happened to the days when kids walked to school? I miss them.

School closures happened. Now, the majority of kids do not live within walking distance of their school.

[dleung]

How much did it cost to mail each of those $100 rebates? $20?

[99 G-Line]

The province should think about giving tax write offs for special users...such as the school boards, charity groups, NGO's....yada yada. I dunno just a thought. But personally I am a supporter of the carbon tax, both Prov. and Federally and yes I am willing to pay more for fuel, food, heating...but thats the cost of taking the easy road such as driving, not growing some of my own food, and not taking every step possible to lower my reliance on the mighty fossil.

This tax has me looking at every aspect where I waste and can improve and though its really hard and near impossible to make every bloody right decision whether morally or monetarily, but hopefully together we can all work through these tough times, start thinking a little less individualistically and create some sustainable Canadian cities.

Just one guys opinion...hate it or love it

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by 99 G-Line

The province should think about giving tax write offs for special users...such as the school boards, charity groups, NGO's....yada yada. I dunno just a thought. But personally I am a supporter of the carbon tax, both Prov. and Federally and yes I am willing to pay more for fuel, food, heating...but thats the cost of taking the easy road such as driving, not growing some of my own food, and not taking every step possible to lower my reliance on the mighty fossil.

This tax has me looking at every aspect where I waste and can improve and though its really hard and near impossible to make every bloody right decision whether morally or monetarily, but hopefully together we can all work through these tough times, start thinking a little less individualistically and create some sustainable Canadian cities.

Just one guys opinion...hate it or love it

As I stated above, are you still willing to pay for something that is proven not accomplish its goal?

The fact is the price of fuels will do much more to reduce consumption then a few pennies of a tax.

[D J M K]

in my humble opinion i think this environmental carbon thing is a load of c$%p. i have my reasons but i won't burden you all with them, however, we live in a democracy and if this is the issue that the people want, then so be it. besides, i understand the need to quit fossil fuels just for geo-political reasons alone.

that being said, i think BC can profit quite nicely from this environmental craze. instead of the $100 cheque that everybody received (mine is helping me pay off my visa), i think the money should of been spent in R&D to position this province as a leader in innovative solutions. I firmly believe that the economy and technology will save us and not extra taxes.

again, just one guys opinion...hate it or love it

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by D J M K

in my humble opinion i think this environmental carbon thing is a load of c$%p. i have my reasons but i won't burden you all with them, however, we live in a democracy and if this is the issue that the people want, then so be it. besides, i understand the need to quit fossil fuels just for geo-political reasons alone.

that being said, i think BC can profit quite nicely from this environmental craze. instead of the $100 cheque that everybody received (mine is helping me pay off my visa), i think the money should of been spent in R&D to position this province as a leader in innovative solutions. I firmly believe that the economy and technology will save us and not extra taxes.

again, just one guys opinion...hate it or love it

Yes, that and rebates to individuals that want to upgrade their homes,car, etc.

This way to get the province/country moving in the right direction are feebates. Feebates charge people when purchasing a environmentally damaging product like a Hummer. Then offer equivalent rebates of energy efficient items like new appliances and cars. I find completely redundant to charge people for using something, then not offering them an alternative.

The income tax reductions amount to $30-50 per year ( $1.15-$1.92 per bi-weekly pay period) for most people, but invested would provide much more.

[D J M K]

Originally Posted by Quimby

Yes, that and rebates to individuals that want to upgrade their homes,car, etc.

This way to get the province/country moving in the right direction are feebates. Feebates charge people when purchasing a environmentally damaging product like a Hummer. Then offer equivalent rebates of energy efficient items like new appliances and cars. I find completely redundant to charge people for using something, then not offering them an alternative.

The income tax reductions amount to $30-50 per year ( $1.15-$1.92 per bi-weekly pay period) for most people, but invested would provide much more.

I love how buying more stuff equates to being friendlier to the environment. I once heard Buzz Hargrove (CAW union president) say something to the effect that if you want to save the environment, get rid of your old car and buy a new GM. nevermind that creating stuff is probably more harmful that using stuff. these freebates do not work. All it does is create price distortions with could have adverse affects.

I remember reading somewhere (can not find the source so please forgive me) that over the entire life of the vehicle, the environmental impact of a Hummer was significantly less than an enviro car with batteries (electric) Apparently, to create and dispose of such things is deadly.

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by D J M K

I love how buying more stuff equates to being friendlier to the environment. I once heard Buzz Hargrove (CAW union president) say something to the effect that if you want to save the environment, get rid of your old car and buy a new GM. nevermind that creating stuff is probably more harmful that using stuff. these freebates do not work. All it does is create price distortions with could have adverse affects.

I remember reading somewhere (can not find the source so please forgive me) that over the entire life of the vehicle, the environmental impact of a Hummer was significantly less than an enviro car with batteries (electric) Apparently, to create and dispose of such things is deadly.

Market distortions only truly exist in economists equations, because in reality no pure market exist. Their are no fully informed consumers for one, among many other perfections that are assumed to exist.

Making energy efficient furnaces and appliance cheaper would do more for the environment then any other program. We created this economy and we can mold it to our needs and should.

Imagine the impact of every slum lord putting in brand new energy efficient furnaces and appliances. Making something good cheaper then something bad is an action that should be taken more often.

[D J M K]

Originally Posted by Quimby

Market distortions only truly exist in economists equations, because in reality no pure market exist. Their are no fully informed consumers for one, among many other perfections that are assumed to exist.

Making energy efficient furnaces and appliance cheaper would do more for the environment then any other program. We created this economy and we can mold it to our needs and should.

Imagine the impact of every slum lord putting in brand new energy efficient furnaces and appliances. Making something good cheaper then something bad is an action that should be taken more often.

there would be no impact what-so-ever. perhaps (if you are lucky) you saved maybe a couple tonnes of CO2 from entering the atmosphere. big deal. you also spent ((6000.00 - 500.00) plus GST) 5775.00. even half of that would be a huge waste of resources if your only goal is it prevent CO2. plant a couple of trees and you would probably come out with the same outcome.

now here is the funny part, who came up with the idea that spending all this money will solve all the environment problems? its %100 marketing. the environment is used to sell you everything from soap to cars to appliances and people are eating it up.

[spongeg]

the government already gives out grants for homeowners and such to upgrade to more energy efficient furnaces

i think people can get up to $500 to do so

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by spongeg

the government already gives out grants for homeowners and such to upgrade to more energy efficient furnaces

i think people can get up to $500 to do so

Yeah and PST free on Energuide, but if you need a new $6,000 furnace that not even a spit in the bucket.

[Joev]

The carbon tax is just an excuse for government to grab more money and make them look environmentally responsible. It will have next to no effect except perhaps raising "awareness". People are already being penalized enough, and discouraged from driving through high and still climbing fuel prices, also through criminally high parking prices, and this tax is just insult on top of injury.