Should Halifax build a subway?

cormiermax · July 10th, 2008, 04:45 AM

Its been talk about for years. Is it time Halifax gets a subway system?

mr.x · July 10th, 2008, 06:21 AM

Is there a demand for an underground rapid transit rail line in Halifax? I think a ground level LRT is more suitable.

Chadoh25 · July 10th, 2008, 09:07 PM

I agree with Mr. X I loved visiting Halifax and all, but isn't it to small or to hilly for that sort of thing? I'm just curious!

cormiermax · July 11th, 2008, 03:33 AM

well size has nothing to do with it. The central areas of the city are only reachable my bottle neck connections. The subway would probably go from the Clayton park area down into the pininsula and down into the downtown area. This would ease those bottle neck connections. It would just be a simple system. Nothing like Toronto's or NYC's. Just a simple system with a few destinations. And once they build a 3rd bridge they can bring the subway to Dartmoth.

mr.x · July 11th, 2008, 06:43 AM

Density is an issue, and there's not a lot of that in Halifax....and considering that Halifax couldn't even get its 2014 Commonwealth bid through due to financial issues, you'd probably be better off with a cheaper ground level LRT system. There would probably also be insufficient ridership to support the high operating cost of an underground system.

vid · July 11th, 2008, 09:19 AM

But the reason they're suggesting a subway is because there is no room at ground level for an LRT. They could do an underground LRT like what Ottawa is planning, though.

mr.x · July 11th, 2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

But the reason they're suggesting a subway is because there is no room at ground level for an LRT. They could do an underground LRT like what Ottawa is planning, though.

I guess in that case, an underground transit line might be in order.....maybe something like Lausaunne's recently opened metro, which uses relatively short platforms (40-metres) and an automated train control system to keep operating costs down. They also use rubber tire technology, like Montreal, Paris, and Turin:

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

I'm just not sure how Halifax/Nova Scotia will finance this when there are NIMBY's and penny pinchers preventing any progress from happening.

TRZ · July 11th, 2008, 09:44 AM

Maybe something like the technology Copenhagen uses would be effective for Halifax's needs? I was amazed by the simplicity of it when I rode it. It wouldn't need to be as deep in Halifax though, I would think. Copenhagen's system is virtually entirely unmanned, no manned booths, no drivers, no conductors, nobody but roaming security (who also inspect fares) IIRC.

mr.x · July 11th, 2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRZ

Maybe something like the technology Copenhagen uses would be effective for Halifax's needs? I was amazed by the simplicity of it when I rode it. It wouldn't need to be as deep in Halifax though, I would think. Copenhagen's system is virtually entirely unmanned, no manned booths, no drivers, no conductors, nobody but roaming security (who also inspect fares) IIRC.

Copenhagen's metro has one attendant on every train to make sure everything goes alright. Vancouver's SkyTrain is also automated - there are no drivers, no attendants on trains, but there is SkyTrain staff at stations to make sure things are going alright and the transit police (as there's quite a bit of crime around the stations).

Yea, both Lausaunne and Copenhagen would be good examples for Halifax to follow.....or Vancouver's new Canada Line, which is also automated.

Copenhagen Metro
image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

cormiermax · July 11th, 2008, 06:58 PM

yeah exactly all Halifax needs is a simple strait lined system going from A to B.

Lausanne · November 11th, 2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.x

I guess in that case, an underground transit line might be in order.....maybe something like Lausaunne's recently opened metro, which uses relatively short platforms (40-metres) and an automated train control system to keep operating costs down. They also use rubber tire technology, like Montreal, Paris, and Turin:

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

I'm just not sure how Halifax/Nova Scotia will finance this when there are NIMBY's and penny pinchers preventing any progress from happening.

What a surprise for me to read a thread about my city from so far away !
Today Lausanne is the smallest city in the world (130000 inhabitants in the city , 310 000 Metro) with a subway system. The subway has opened three weeks ago and we are very proud of it.

And it's also the steepest in the world for a subway on tires ("sur pneu" in french). Excuse my bad english

Lausanne · November 11th, 2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lausanne

What a surprise for me to read a thread about my city from so far away !
Today Lausanne is the smallest city in the world (130000 inhabitants in the city , 310 000 Metro) with a subway system. The subway has opened three weeks ago and we are very proud of it.

And it's also the steepest in the world for a subway on tires ("sur pneu" in french). Excuse my bad english

UNBELIEVABLE !!!

I've just realized that I"am the guy on the first picture, in black on the right, taking a picture, it's me !!! What a coincidence !!!!

vid · July 11th, 2008, 10:45 PM

Rennes, France is about the size of Halifax and has a fully automated one line system, as well. Saskatoon was looking at it when considering urban transit expansion last year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennes_Metro

mr.x · July 12th, 2008, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Rennes, France is about the size of Halifax and has a fully automated one line system, as well. Saskatoon was looking at it when considering urban transit expansion last year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennes_Metro

The region has around 350,000 people, yet the ridership on this line is an incredible 110,000 daily:

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

isaidso · July 12th, 2008, 07:53 AM

Well, you know I'm going to say 100% yes, most definitely, of course!!! Halifax is well suited to a subway system. A simple loop around the Basin and the 2 downtowns would greatly simplify the transit system, congestion, and accessibility.

It makes more sense here than anywhere else in Canada currently without a subway.

Nouvellecosse · July 12th, 2008, 08:43 PM

All I want to see (for now) is a short tunneled LRT section from Scotia Square to just past the VIA station, connecting downtown to the rail corridor as seen here:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...b7a83&t=h&z=12

They could probably do it with all the money they're threatenng to spend on the new bridge/tunnel scheme...

Haligonian · July 13th, 2008, 03:32 AM

A full-scale subway like you find in New York or Toronto is simply too expensive but Halifax is exactly at the point where a light rail system should be started.

Light rail service up Robie or Agricola to the North End would have a very positive effect on the area. Service attaching the downtown, hospitals, and universities (more or less) to Clayton Park would be very well-used from the beginning.

Saying that the CWGs were killed because of money is an oversimplification, and I don't think an LRT system in Halifax should cost that much anyway. The fundamental problem was the CWG budget was mostly for a one-time event. The only really decent legacy of the games would have been a $100-150M stadium which could be built on its own. A decent LRT system (not underground) could probably be built for $200M, possibly much less, and would benefit far more people in a much more important way.

cormiermax · July 13th, 2008, 03:43 AM

would anyone do a map of what a system might look like?

Nouvellecosse · July 13th, 2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haligonian

Light rail service up Robie or Agricola to the North End would have a very positive effect on the area. Service attaching the downtown, hospitals, and universities (more or less) to Clayton Park would be very well-used from the beginning.

I'm not sure how that would be feasible. The only real benefit to having an lrt is if it travelled on its own right of way, making it rapid transit, ie, faster than buses. Something that was just going down regular city streets wouldn't do that. Sure you could use traffic light triggering, but then you could just as easily do that wth express buses. So the only other possible benefit would be higher capacity, but the system isn't exactly over flowing as it is.

If the the streets were wide enough like in Calgary, this would be easier, but in Hfx, the only way I can see true rapid transit happening is elevated, burried, railcut, or some combination of those three. In most of the city, people have decently large backyards, so perhaps an elevated line could run behind people's houses.

But what I'd really like to see is Hfx gaining some real, legitimate density (perhaps an aditional 100-150k on the peninsula and another 100k in currently built up areas of the mainland), then building a small but genuine subway. Maybe something like Glasgow's.
http://world.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/glasgow.html

But for now, the railcut is the only thing I see as practical.

isaidso · July 14th, 2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haligonian

A full-scale subway like you find in New York or Toronto is simply too expensive but Halifax is exactly at the point where a light rail system should be started.

Halifax doesn't need a subway network like NYC or Toronto, just one line that runs in a loop around the basin and the 2 downtowns. It can be light rail as long as all of it on peninsula Halifax is underground. Space above ground is at such a premium here and is one of the reasons a subway makes so much sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joev

Do you know how much it would cost, and if it would pay for itself? Are there any North American cities of that size with subways?

It would be expensive. Transit systems in Canada are almost always paid for jointly by all 3 levels of government. The City, the Province, and the Feds would all need to sign off on it after a feasibility study is done. I'm not sure if there are any cities as small as Halifax in North America that have a subway, but there surely are in Europe. Population size alone shouldn't be the deciding factor. North Americans wrongly assume you need a population of 2 million to justify a subway because they think of cities like New York or Toronto when they think of subways. All a city needs is a pressing need based on geography, travel patterns, land use, density, and factors such as this.

If done properly, you could have a full third of metro Halifax using such a system daily. The bottlenecks to peninsula Halifax by road are severe enough to make an easy, congestion free, commute by subway very appetizing to a Haligonian.

View Poll Results: Should Halifax build a subway
Yes	39	41.49%
No	39	41.49%
Mabey?	16	17.02%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

July 10th, 2008, 04:45 AM	#1
cormiermax Proudly Haligonian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halifax Posts: 619 Likes (Received): 17	Should Halifax build a subway? Its been talk about for years. Is it time Halifax gets a subway system? __________________ http://caesiumstudio.com/

July 10th, 2008, 06:21 AM	#2
mr.x Ex-mod Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: █♣█ Vancouver Posts: 8,072 Likes (Received): 1	Is there a demand for an underground rapid transit rail line in Halifax? I think a ground level LRT is more suitable. __________________ "My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson "Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007) "In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

July 11th, 2008, 03:33 AM	#4
cormiermax Proudly Haligonian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halifax Posts: 619 Likes (Received): 17	well size has nothing to do with it. The central areas of the city are only reachable my bottle neck connections. The subway would probably go from the Clayton park area down into the pininsula and down into the downtown area. This would ease those bottle neck connections. It would just be a simple system. Nothing like Toronto's or NYC's. Just a simple system with a few destinations. And once they build a 3rd bridge they can bring the subway to Dartmoth. __________________ http://caesiumstudio.com/

July 11th, 2008, 06:43 AM	#5
mr.x Ex-mod Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: █♣█ Vancouver Posts: 8,072 Likes (Received): 1	Density is an issue, and there's not a lot of that in Halifax....and considering that Halifax couldn't even get its 2014 Commonwealth bid through due to financial issues, you'd probably be better off with a cheaper ground level LRT system. There would probably also be insufficient ridership to support the high operating cost of an underground system. __________________ "My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson "Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007) "In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."

July 10th, 2008, 09:07 PM	#3
Chadoh25 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 7,570 Likes (Received): 248	I agree with Mr. X I loved visiting Halifax and all, but isn't it to small or to hilly for that sort of thing? I'm just curious!

July 11th, 2008, 09:19 AM	#6
vid Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Thunder Bay Posts: 12,880 Likes (Received): 39	But the reason they're suggesting a subway is because there is no room at ground level for an LRT. They could do an underground LRT like what Ottawa is planning, though. __________________ winnipeg (06/12 - 09/12) + other photos / random things He SO collects cactuses. You can see it in his eyes.

July 11th, 2008, 09:44 AM	#8
TRZ Welcome to the Rail World Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 4,845 Likes (Received): 0	Maybe something like the technology Copenhagen uses would be effective for Halifax's needs? I was amazed by the simplicity of it when I rode it. It wouldn't need to be as deep in Halifax though, I would think. Copenhagen's system is virtually entirely unmanned, no manned booths, no drivers, no conductors, nobody but roaming security (who also inspect fares) IIRC. __________________ *Pssst... your balls* are showing...** EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME transit geek

July 11th, 2008, 06:58 PM	#10
cormiermax Proudly Haligonian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halifax Posts: 619 Likes (Received): 17	yeah exactly all Halifax needs is a simple strait lined system going from A to B. __________________ http://caesiumstudio.com/

July 11th, 2008, 10:45 PM	#13
vid Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Thunder Bay Posts: 12,880 Likes (Received): 39	Rennes, France is about the size of Halifax and has a fully automated one line system, as well. Saskatoon was looking at it when considering urban transit expansion last year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennes_Metro __________________ winnipeg (06/12 - 09/12) + other photos / random things He SO collects cactuses. You can see it in his eyes.

July 12th, 2008, 07:53 AM	#15
isaidso the new republic Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: The United Provinces of America Posts: 18,629 Likes (Received): 333	Well, you know I'm going to say 100% yes, most definitely, of course!!! Halifax is well suited to a subway system. A simple loop around the Basin and the 2 downtowns would greatly simplify the transit system, congestion, and accessibility. It makes more sense here than anywhere else in Canada currently without a subway.

July 12th, 2008, 08:43 PM	#16
Nouvellecosse ~ Mysterious Entity ~ Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Halifax, N.S. Posts: 3,587 Likes (Received): 24	All I want to see (for now) is a short tunneled LRT section from Scotia Square to just past the VIA station, connecting downtown to the rail corridor as seen here: http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...b7a83&t=h&z=12 They could probably do it with all the money they're threatenng to spend on the new bridge/tunnel scheme...

July 13th, 2008, 03:32 AM	#17
Haligonian Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 495 Likes (Received): 1	A full-scale subway like you find in New York or Toronto is simply too expensive but Halifax is exactly at the point where a light rail system should be started. Light rail service up Robie or Agricola to the North End would have a very positive effect on the area. Service attaching the downtown, hospitals, and universities (more or less) to Clayton Park would be very well-used from the beginning. Saying that the CWGs were killed because of money is an oversimplification, and I don't think an LRT system in Halifax should cost that much anyway. The fundamental problem was the CWG budget was mostly for a one-time event. The only really decent legacy of the games would have been a $100-150M stadium which could be built on its own. A decent LRT system (not underground) could probably be built for $200M, possibly much less, and would benefit far more people in a much more important way. __________________ Halifax Galleries- http://www.pbase.com/halifaxphoto/

July 13th, 2008, 03:43 AM	#18
cormiermax Proudly Haligonian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halifax Posts: 619 Likes (Received): 17	would anyone do a map of what a system might look like? __________________ http://caesiumstudio.com/

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