High-Speed Rail in India

[Soul2018]

Originally Posted by mkaushik1991

So there are still many people who hope that HSR will happen in india.

It is inevitable. The question is "when?".

[carrera7]

Originally Posted by philebus

Just finished reading Spiegel article. It does not claim "utilization will always be low" because "..."

.

from these statements we can assume that occupancy will never be optimal

The most amusing examples are small cities such as Limburg and Montabaur, whose transport policy triumph is paid for each year in the consumption of several gigawatt hours of operating power. Several times each day, ICEs traveling 300 kph (185 mph) are forced to come to a standstill at empty station platforms in these towns.

Major Stops in Minor Cities
Then there are moderately important cities such as Göttingen and Mannheim, which enjoy a status as major stations where nearly every ICE calls. The system is about as practical as if Lufthansa were to offer a direct connection eight times a day from the small city of Münster in northwestern Germany to the small city of Nuremberg in the southeast.

I find it hard to believe that management considers 50% occupancy as optimal. I would consider optimal load factor to be around 75% or more. It may be nice for a passenger to join a half empty train, but that is no way to run a business. All these railways get subsidy, TGV gets subsidy, so does German Railways.

India is a long way from any of this. There are some good ideas floating about, but the pace of investment is too slow. The existing network also needs huge investment. The primary problem is the government of the day is not interested. Its not a vote winner.

[Joker rises]

HSR will never happen in India...

[philebus]

Originally Posted by carrera7

All these railways get subsidy, TGV gets subsidy, so does German Railways.

Strange claim. You claim German HSR long distance services receive subsidies; is this your assumption, or verifiable through some scholarly or government source?

There is a difference between regional government mandated local train services which are awarded/renewed by a bidding process, and intercity HSR long distance services. Long distance HSR services do not qualify for subsidies in Germany, since the 1994 railway reforms and privatizations. See here and here.

On the rest of your comment: check DB schedule here. You will see that many many more high speed trains run everyday between Munich-Hamburg, or Frankfurt-Cologne, than between Frankfurt-Montabaur. Should Westerwaldkreis' 200,000 people and its capital Montabaur have no HSR service at all, or should it have at least a few? If every ICE train was stopping there, I can appreciate your concern; but when just 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 HSR trains are stopping in some smaller city, you are nitpicking the issue out of proportion. The spiegel article has a point, but there is a lot more to the whole picture.

Why not let a profitable company in a open market economy run its business any way it wants? Most passengers are satisfied, major cities are connected with high speed service, and the company has been profitable quarter after quarter.

[Smooth Indian]

Originally Posted by Joker rises

HSR will never happen in India...

Then, isn't it pointless for you to hang around this thread?

[carrera7]

Originally Posted by Joker rises

HSR will never happen in India...

Indian needs an successful HSR corridor. A separate line designed for high speed. Say Mumbai - Ahmedadabad. Some thing that has a good chance of success.

Once that happens, it will open up many other projects. Rather like what happened with the Delhi metro. Thats the way things work otherwise there are too many naysayers.

It won't happen till after the elections at least

[vishnu max]

Originally Posted by Smooth Indian

Then, isn't it pointless for you to hang around this thread?

He means THE TRAINSETS AND TRACKS cost more than existing Trains in India. So HSR WILL NEVER HAPPEN AND IT WON'T SEE DAYLIGHT.

[vishnu max]

HSR won't come to India due to cost factors. The french announced it but they won't do it. Mods, close this thread.

[philebus]

Originally Posted by vishnu max

He means THE TRAINSETS AND TRACKS cost more than existing Trains in India. So HSR WILL NEVER HAPPEN AND IT WON'T SEE DAYLIGHT.

Interestingly, similar comments were made in many countries before HSR were introduced on select routes and then expanded.

Costs are important, but not the only factor that drives infrastructure investments. Jobs creation, empowering the youth and future generations, likely return on investment are prudently considered. If cost was the only factor, you would get some strange and tragic predictions such as:

Motor vehicles and paved roads cost more than existing potholed unpaved muddy roads in country X. So higher speed roads will never ....

Multiple-story buildings and brick+steel+cement construction cost more than existing tin-and-mud slums in country Z. So better housing initiatives will never ....

Schools, university campuses and books cost more than existing illiteracy in country M. So higher education infrastructure will never happen in ....

Hospitals, training nurses and doctors, and producing vaccines cost more than existing quackery and leaving the poor helpless. So investments in medical care will never happen in ....

Why give up so easily? Why shouldn't we ask: how can we create infrastructure that will transform the lives of our future generations, offer a better quality of life?

[mkaushik1991]

Will a common man be able to pay nearly 2500 to travel bw mumbai and ahmedabad. Remember this is a country where there will be riots even if there is 10% increase in railway ticket prices .is there sufficient amount of traffic to recover the costs?

I support semi HSR which will run at 200 kmph and which doesn't need any extra infrastructure.

[carrera7]

Originally Posted by mkaushik1991

Will a common man be able to pay nearly 2500 to travel bw mumbai and ahmedabad. Remember this is a country where there will be riots even if there is 10% increase in railway ticket prices .is there sufficient amount of traffic to recover the costs?

if the system is totally separate from Indian Railways I don't see why not. It will have to be self funded, with no subsidy whatsoever. Then it can charge what the market will bear

[vishnu max]

Then, Our only hope is the Semi High Speed Trains running on existing tracks at 200kmph.

[bharatiya]

I think that 2500 is incredibly reasonable to travel over 500 km especially when considering who would be using the system.

Over time the IR first class demographic will definitely change or perhaps even become less popular (unless of course per capita wealth increases at a faster rate than railway ticket prices) and then at least the organization will be forced to innovate in order to adapt to an India which demands standards.

[Smooth Indian]

First we have to verify how the Rs 2500 was reached. And what class and amenities does that amount buy. It may be possible to design lower cost coach type seating classes. And double-decker trains are very much an option. And in the future more and more Indians will demand better standards and will be willing to pay more for it.

[carrera7]

Originally Posted by Smooth Indian

First we have to verify how the Rs 2500 was reached. .

return airfare (Jet Airways) between Mumbai - Ahmedabad is around Rs 5000. Safe to say HSR needs to be competitive

And what class and amenities does that amount buy

it buys cattle class on Jet Airways

[vadodra007]

Originally Posted by carrera7

Indian needs an successful HSR corridor. A separate line designed for high speed. Say Mumbai - Ahmedadabad. Some thing that has a good chance of success.

Once that happens, it will open up many other projects. Rather like what happened with the Delhi metro. Thats the way things work otherwise there are too many naysayers.
st

This makes too much sense; the railway minister from Bihar will cringe at this thought.

[Smooth Indian]

Originally Posted by carrera7

return airfare (Jet Airways) between Mumbai - Ahmedabad is around Rs 5000. Safe to say HSR needs to be competitive



it buys cattle class on Jet Airways

Actually I was asking about what amenities and class would Rs 5000 buy on the train. Anyways I feel Rs 5000 on the train (even HSR one) may still get one better leg space than on a plane (economy class). And one can still have free space around the doors for walking. That freedom is usually very restricted in most flights.

The other moot point is can we estimate the ticket cost on an hypothetical Mumbai-Ahmedabad line based on some analysis? Maybe "Philebus" can come up with some figures.

[philebus]

Originally Posted by Smooth Indian

Actually I was asking about what amenities and class would Rs 5000 buy on the train. Anyways I feel Rs 5000 on the train (even HSR one) may still get one better leg space than on a plane (economy class). And one can still have free space around the doors for walking. That freedom is usually very restricted in most flights.

The other moot point is can we estimate the ticket cost on an hypothetical Mumbai-Ahmedabad line based on some analysis? Maybe "Philebus" can come up with some figures.

Estimating ticket prices for India's HSR, one that does not exist, would require too many assumptions and speculation.

An alternate way to get possible estimates is to ask: with world's existing HSR trains, how far can you travel with INR 5000 (US$ 95, Euro 70, GBP 61, March 2013 currency exchange rates).

Let us consider direct exchange rates, discard India's favorable purchasing power parity. FWIW, fuel, supplies, labor salaries and cost of living is generally more expensive in Europe than India.

So, how many kilometers can you travel with efficient 200km/hr or higher HSRs elsewhere in our world for INR 5000 or less, during regular hours on a weekday?

* With SNCF, France, you can go from Paris to Marseille, in April 2013, a train distance of ~700 km, for about INR 2500. (Verify here)

* With DB, Germany, you can go from Munich to Cologne, a train distance of ~550 km, for about INR 3500. (Verify here)

* With Virgin Trains, UK, you can go from London to Manchester in the morning and then return to London the same day, a train distance of ~500 km, for about INR 3500. (Verify here)

* With Japan Railways, you can go from Hiroshima to Nagasaki, a train distance of ~450 km, for about INR 4100. (Verify here)

These are all for standard coach/second class ticket. The typical amenities to expect are described on the websites above. For a quick written summary and pictures: see here.

[carrera7]

Chennai-Bangalore is another good candidate. The distance is 330 kms

currently Indian Railways takes 5-6 hrs!

HSR rail could do it under 2 hours. This will give immediate gains for business travellers, who could go in the morning and come back not too late at night. You could even commute between these two cities. You can fly, but flying is a major hassle for such short distances. Total flying journey time may even be longer.

Plus the project costs will not seem that daunting. The train should be an EMU type (no locomotive) in my opnion

[Swede]

^That does sound like a good place to start, yes. Cutting travel-time in half compared to "old" rail and at 2 hours it should, like you write, be very competative with air travel. Also, it'll free up capacity on existing rails.

Originally Posted by vishnu max

Then, Our only hope is the Semi High Speed Trains running on existing tracks at 200kmph.

For that to be viable there needs to be plenty of room on the tracks. Up here in tiny Sweden there's talk of building real HSR (the Green party is very much in favour) now. We've had semi-HSR running at 200km/h on old tracks for 20 years. Worked fine for a few years, but now the tracks are almost all full. i.e. delays are VERY common since there's often no way to get back to schedule the same day unless some trains are completely cancelled. Same problem in England. If India doesn't have that problem yet on the conventional lines, it will have it in the not too distant future.
Real HSR is the way to go.