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Old May 14th, 2013, 05:14 AM   #3241
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
I think you're forgetting league and local sponsorships which can be very lucrative. It is rumoured that Montreal (who were doing very well with sponsorships despite the league's smallest stadium at the time) lost a large amount of income because of the business practices of a former executive.
So why doesn't Edmonton benefit from any of that?
Quote:
Also, take some of the overly ambitious expansion posts from people here with a grain of salt. The likeliest expansion would be to Atlantic Canada and that is no guarantee (and fraught with many issues) and would be a loooooong way away.
The TV payout goes up from $1.875 million per team per year now, to $4.444 million in 2014. I think that would be the perfect time to work on a 10th team.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 06:30 AM   #3242
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The TV payout goes up from $1.875 million per team per year now, to $4.444 million in 2014. I think that would be the perfect time to work on a 10th team.
Why? The only semi-serious place to expand would be to Atlantic Canada and there has been absolutely no ownership interest. You could count on one hand the possible ownership groups with the financial wherewithal to own a club. And what if they wanted to divest? Who's left? They had a hard enough time in the Golden Triangle to find ownership for Hamilton and Toronto and that market is five times the size (inaccurate guess).

Despite the Conference Board of Canada's rosy picture painting, we have not enough large markets and or interested ownership groups for expansion. Of all the cities rumoured for expansion: Quebec, Victoria, Saskatoon, Kitchener/Waterloo has anyone specific actually stepped forward and said they were interested? I don't think there has been.

Aside from a balanced schedule and a truly national league (if expansion finally comes to the Maritimes) what is to be gained then from adding an 11th team?

I might be one of the few here who remembers the hype of the Atlantic Schooners of the early 80s (wish I had bought a t-shirt) and we haven't been that close in 30 years. Sometimes these things take time.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #3243
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Aside from a balanced schedule and a truly national league (if expansion finally comes to the Maritimes) what is to be gained then from adding an 11th team?
Assuming that an 11th team would be profitable, an enlarged league has lots of intangible benefits. People's complaint about watching the same match ups over and over are valid. 11 teams won't solve that, but it's a step in the right direction.

I'm assuming an 11th team would go to Quebec City? A franchise there would help built the CFL brand in a province home to 23% of the national population and give the Alouettes a provincial rival. That doesn't sound all that important, but it's things like this that build interest in a sports league.

Adding Halifax and Quebec City to the East will make that Conference stronger and viable regardless of what happens in Toronto. I hope it never comes to that, but the health of the entire league should never rest on the survival of 1 franchise even if it's in the biggest city in the country.

Lastly, I agree that the expansion plans posted are over ambitious. They're more hopes rather than predictions. Despite the CFL surviving all these years with just 8-9 teams, the league must move beyond that to ensure its next 100 years. Having just 8-9 teams puts the CFL in a vulnerable position and doesn't fully service the domestic market available to it.

The CFL is on the rise, but who knows how long that will last before it begins to plateau. Expansion has the best chance of succeeding while interest is spiking, not when it's flat lining. The next 5-10 years represent a window of opportunity for expansion that might close if the league waits too long.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #3244
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Perhaps Canada or the CFL in general should come up with it's own version of the cookie-cutter stadium. Rather than being a convertible stadium for Football and Baseball, just make it a cheap 25,000 seater CFL sized stadium that can be beefed up to 40,000 for the Grey Cup.

Put a fixed (but flexible to allow for cost overruns) price on it and see how many cities are willing to put up a site that will give them a shot at a franchise.


Just look at Australia's Australian Football League (Aussie Rules Football). We've had the traditional leagues based in the State of Victoria for most of it's history (where the sport originates and is largely popular), but during the 80's and 90's there was a focus on expanding the game to make it more Australian.

As such, we have 2 teams in Perth, 2 in Adelaide, 2 in Sydney, 1 in Brisbane and 1 on the Gold Coast, alongside the 10 teams from Victoria (9 based in Melbourne and 1 in Geelong). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Football_League

I think an expansion to 16 teams around the country is the way to make the game more interesting and exciting, you begin with Moncton (as they have the stadium, that could be expanded and reconfigured to seat 25,000) then go to Halifax and Quebec City when ready.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 02:42 PM   #3245
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Originally Posted by Lord David View Post
Perhaps Canada or the CFL in general should come up with it's own version of the cookie-cutter stadium. Rather than being a convertible stadium for Football and Baseball, just make it a cheap 25,000 seater CFL sized stadium that can be beefed up to 40,000 for the Grey Cup.

Put a fixed (but flexible to allow for cost overruns) price on it and see how many cities are willing to put up a site that will give them a shot at a franchise.


Just look at Australia's Australian Football League (Aussie Rules Football). We've had the traditional leagues based in the State of Victoria for most of it's history (where the sport originates and is largely popular), but during the 80's and 90's there was a focus on expanding the game to make it more Australian.

As such, we have 2 teams in Perth, 2 in Adelaide, 2 in Sydney, 1 in Brisbane and 1 on the Gold Coast, alongside the 10 teams from Victoria (9 based in Melbourne and 1 in Geelong). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Football_League

I think an expansion to 16 teams around the country is the way to make the game more interesting and exciting, you begin with Moncton (as they have the stadium, that could be expanded and reconfigured to seat 25,000) then go to Halifax and Quebec City when ready.
The AFL still has a long ways to go mate. Talk to most people and it's still a Melbourne league... When th emajority of the teams play their home and away games in the same stadium it's hard to call it a national league...
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Old May 14th, 2013, 04:04 PM   #3246
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Originally Posted by Lord David View Post
Perhaps Canada or the CFL in general should come up with it's own version of the cookie-cutter stadium. Rather than being a convertible stadium for Football and Baseball, just make it a cheap 25,000 seater CFL sized stadium that can be beefed up to 40,000 for the Grey Cup.
The Argonauts are the only franchise that plays in baseball/football stadium. The rest are either all primarily football specific stadia with some doubling up to host soccer.

Winnipeg is definitely being looked at as a good blue print for CFL stadia going forward. It has 33,500 permanent seats expandable to 40,000. Some cities would be better off with 25,000 permanent seats, but baseball certainly isn't part of the equation at all.

That said, the Argonauts have to leave Skydome in a few seasons so they're looking for a new stadium. The timing couldn't be worse though. With Toronto looking to bid for the 2024 Olympics it would have been the ideal opportunity to get a stadium funded: 70,000 reduced to 40,000 after the Games.

It would be a terrible waste to build a stadium for the Argonauts and then another large stadium for the Olympics a few years later. A 70,000 seat Olympic stadium would sit empty... and before you start talking about the NFL that's not going to happen. There is little financial incentive for that league to set up a franchise in Toronto. Torontonians already watch NFL without a team, adding one won't increase revenues for the NFL one iota. Besides, they'd go to Mexico City, Los Angeles, even London before Toronto.

The last thing the NFL wants to do is damage the CFL. It's not in their interest for the CFL to fail.

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Just look at Australia's Australian Football League (Aussie Rules Football). We've had the traditional leagues based in the State of Victoria for most of it's history (where the sport originates and is largely popular), but during the 80's and 90's there was a focus on expanding the game to make it more Australian.

As such, we have 2 teams in Perth, 2 in Adelaide, 2 in Sydney, 1 in Brisbane and 1 on the Gold Coast, alongside the 10 teams from Victoria (9 based in Melbourne and 1 in Geelong). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Football_League

I think an expansion to 16 teams around the country is the way to make the game more interesting and exciting, you begin with Moncton (as they have the stadium, that could be expanded and reconfigured to seat 25,000) then go to Halifax and Quebec City when ready.
The AFL is on far more solid ground in Australia than the CFL is in Canada. I do support expansion of the CFL, but it can't be rushed. As much as I'd like to see Moncton get a team, they're just too small to be viable. Halifax and Quebec City are the only appealing markets for the league over the next 5-10 years. The rest will have to wait.

16 teams is far too many teams for the current level of interest in football here. 11-12 is about all the market can bear. Expansion for the sake of expansion isn't the way to go.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #3247
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I totally agree with the 12 team goal and the league should be hard at work on this.

It's all about proving that the franchise can be sustainable with reasonable initial funding and then ticket sales, corporate sponsorship, merchandizing and tv money should do the rest.

It's all about creating a virtuous circle: more teams means more ticket sales revenue that should possibly lead to more interest from TVs inviting higher bids for tv rights so better exposure on national TV attracting more corporate interest ...

The two logical expansions right now appear to be the Maritimes and Quebec City.

The biggest hurdle is probably not the fact that nobody has voiced an interest cause people have, at least, Quebec city has had quite a few rumors in the few past months. The major hurdle is the stadium.


However BC Lions and Vancouver have proved with the Empire stadium at the PNE that it was possible to build a temporary stadium that looked like "the business" in a limited time with a "reasonable" budget 14.4 million! Montreal Impact and Toronto FC have also shown that new stadia don't need to cost the taxpayers a hundred million or two.

I wish more cities would agree to pay for stadium "shells" signing agreement with tenants to build the amenities they need inside, themselves, over time!

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Old May 14th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #3248
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The biggest hurdle is probably not the fact that nobody has voiced an interest cause people have, at least, Quebec city has had quite a few rumors in the few past months.
Who?
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Old May 14th, 2013, 05:16 PM   #3249
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16 teams is far too many teams for the current level of interest in football here. 11-12 is about all the market can bear. Expansion for the sake of expansion isn't the way to go.
Yup
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Old May 14th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #3250
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Who?


As I said rumors... I cannot really give names as I would probably stand corrected on the few names that have been mentioned... That's the big thing with rumors they offer deniability
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Old May 14th, 2013, 06:09 PM   #3251
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As I said rumors... I cannot really give names as I would probably stand corrected on the few names that have been mentioned... That's the big thing with rumors they offer deniability
In other words, nobody? If people have been speculated about publicly it's ok to name them.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 07:25 PM   #3252
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In other words, nobody? If people have been speculated about publicly it's ok to name them.
The only ones I have ever heard about is Marcel Aubut before the new Arena and NHL got some steam going and the woman who was with Tommy Bahama clothing (Christina Sainte Marche?)
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Old May 14th, 2013, 07:47 PM   #3253
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The only ones I have ever heard about is Marcel Aubut before the new Arena and NHL got some steam going and the woman who was with Tommy Bahama clothing (Christina Sainte Marche?)
I've heard her name mentioned several times in various schemes and one was about a team in Quebec (as I recall, and sit corrected) Seems to be more for cheap publicity I think.

I understand that the Alouettes hold the rights for all Quebec and that expansion would have to be negotiated with them before moving on to Quebec City.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:03 AM   #3254
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Councillors pan stadium design tweaks
Emma Reilly thespec.com May 14/2013

Disappointing. Bland. Nondescript.

These are only some of the words councillors are using to describe the design of the $145.7-million Pan Am stadium.

Councillors on the planning committee got a glimpse of the most recent renderings of the stadium Tuesday. Though the final design hasn't been approved, city staff say they're now satisfied the stadium meets all of the city's urban design guidelines.

However, councillors didn't like what they saw.

"When I look at this stadium, it has no theme, no character, it's bland and nondescript," said Councillor Chad Collins. "It looks like a high school stadium you might see in the Southern U.S., where football is huge."

However, as Councillor Lloyd Ferguson points out, they have little control over the design at this point.

"We can't take the time to get it right, because we have to have it ready by July 1, 2014. I think it's really touch-and-go that we'll get there, and I just don't want us to wear any of the blame for delaying them," he said. "The whole thing's so uncomfortable."

City staff have been working on a tweaked design for the past several months with Ontario Sports Solutions, the consortium in charge of building the stadium. The first attempt did not conform to the city's urban design guidelines, and of particular concern was the fact that the design called for the underside of the stands to be exposed to the street.

In the updated rendering, several changes were made including lightening the colours, adding mesh screening and banners to hide the underside of the stands, and placing additional seating and art in the public square planned for the corner of Cannon Street and Balsam Avenue.

The individual masonry pieces have been shrunk to the same size as the bricks in the surrounding homes, while bands of contrasting stonework have been added at street level for pedestrian interest.

Despite these changes, councillors were overwhelmingly unimpressed with the design.

Councillor Terry Whitehead, who was particularly concerned about the exposed stands, says the proposed solution is nothing more than "mosquito netting" and "posters."

"I don't think a bunch of banners and screening on the back side of the stadium is a legacy whatsoever," said Whitehead.

Meanwhile, the city is still in negotiations with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats about the long-term stadium lease. The team and the city have a memorandum of understanding (MOU) in place that outlines the basics of the agreement, but the terms of the formal 20-year lease are still being worked out.

Ferguson says the delay is being caused by some extra requests from the Tiger-Cats that aren't included in the MOU. However, since the lease is still under negotiation, Ferguson says he can't say exactly what's causing the problem.

"It's been suggested there should be some additional items that aren't in the MOU," he said.

However, Ticats president Scott Mitchell says it's been "a very, very positive, productive process. I don't see any reason why we're not going to bring this to fruition. There haven't been issues whatsoever."

In the MOU, the city agreed to pay the full costs of the Ticats' practice facility during the reconstruction of the stadium.

Ferguson says that facility isn't needed until June, which gives both sides another month or so to come up with an agreement.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:32 AM   #3255
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Latest renders new PanAM/Ivor Wynne stadium May 14/2013











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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:43 AM   #3256
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Too late to fix design of "high school" stadium design for Pan Am games
Process is mostly out of their hands, they say
Samantha Craggs, CBC News May 14, 2013

Hamilton city councillors still aren't happy with the "high school" design of the new Pan Am stadium, but say there's not much they can do about it now.

Members of the planning committee looked over the latest plans at a meeting Tuesday. They compared it to a high school stadium, and called the screens covering the underside of the seats as “mosquito netting.”

But at this point, the process is out of the council's hands, Coun. Terry Whitehead said.

“I think it's unfortunate that it's the only stadium in the city of Hamilton and it can be compared to a high school stadium,” he said. “I just think it falls short.”

The $145-million stadium resulted from an agreement between the Pan Am Games and Infrastructure Ontario, the province's construction agency. The city has had little authority in the process, Whitehead said.

There have been benefits to the arrangement — the city would have had to spend $90 million to repair the former Ivor Wynne Stadium, he said. With this arrangement, the city is contributing $45 million and getting a new stadium.

But the process has been a lesson learned, said Coun. Lloyd Ferguson of Ancaster, co-chair of the city's stadium subcommittee. If he could do it again, he'd like to see the city work with the Pan Am Games directly.

“Take control of things yourself. Don't turn it over to a Toronto agency,” he said.

“We have a good reputation now and we can deliver these big projects on time and on schedule.”

Crews have started work on the foundation. Building permits are being issued in three stages — substructure, superstructure and fit and finish. The city's next move is to issue a superstructure permit, which will include the steel structure of the building.

City staff continue to work with the Ontario Sports Solutions consortium on the urban design, and won't issue the superstructure permit until they've come to an agreement, said Steve Robichaud, manager of development planning. Council's comments will be taken into account.

But it's too late for any major changes, Ferguson said. The stadium must be completed by July 2015. If it isn't, there will be penalties, financial and otherwise.

Changes have been made to the plans based on council feedback, senior planner Heather Travis said. Those include changes to masonry, seating and the football-shaped plaza, including more space for public art.

“We're certainly at this point coming close to resolutions,” she said.

Coun. Chad Collins says he's still hoping for more major eleventh-hour changes.

“This looks like a high school stadium you might see in the southern states,” he said. “For me, there's an element of disappointment. I think people expected more.”
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Old May 15th, 2013, 09:23 AM   #3257
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Originally Posted by Lord David View Post
Perhaps Canada or the CFL in general should come up with it's own version of the cookie-cutter stadium. Rather than being a convertible stadium for Football and Baseball, just make it a cheap 25,000 seater CFL sized stadium that can be beefed up to 40,000 for the Grey Cup.

Put a fixed (but flexible to allow for cost overruns) price on it and see how many cities are willing to put up a site that will give them a shot at a franchise.
The CFL has already been temporarily expanding stadiums for the Grey Cup for decades in Calgary, Winnipeg and Regina.

There's no 'flatpack' model yet but the new Hamilton Stadium is almost that.

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Just look at Australia's Australian Football League (Aussie Rules Football). We've had the traditional leagues based in the State of Victoria for most of it's history (where the sport originates and is largely popular), but during the 80's and 90's there was a focus on expanding the game to make it more Australian.
Good lord, you can't have that poor a grasp of Aussie Rules history then that can you?

Expanding the Game?
If Victoria expanded the game in the 80's why then did Western Australia smash Victoria by almost 100 points in the first State of Origin in 1977?
Those West Aussie players didn't come from a vacuum.
Victoria expanded nothing but their own league while sinking the SANFL led, WAFL backed (and far more equitable) NFL in the late 70's.

Besides create the AFL, Victoria has maginalized the rich history of the game outside Victoria to the point it seems that some didn't know the game was played west of Horsham and north of the Murray.

Aussie Rules has been the dominant sport in WA, SA, NT and Tas for well over 130 years. The WAFL and SANFL unrecognisable from the farm leagues of the AFL they are now. The cream of their players were as good as any from Victoria. Remember Polly Farmer or Barrie Robran?
Harry Bunton Sr (arguably the best of all time) left the VFL to play in the WAFL. Expand the game my arse.

16 teams is a hell of a lot for countries the size of Australia to Canada when you consider the standards we demand. If the AFL started today there wouldn't be a hope in hell of Melbourne having 9 teams who take more than their fair share of players than Victoria produces at the expense of WA and SA.

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I think an expansion to 16 teams around the country is the way to make the game more interesting and exciting, you begin with Moncton (as they have the stadium, that could be expanded and reconfigured to seat 25,000) then go to Halifax and Quebec City when ready.
As for the CFL, for most of its 100years+ it has been it's traditional layout as a one team town model. You can't shove 3 more teams into Toronto when not enough Torontonians seem to want one. Halifax and Quebec may be able to host a team within 2 decades. Moncton and Victoria are far more iffy.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #3258
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I was referring to the VFL becoming the AFL (I know the VFL still exists as a secondary league in the state).

I know that the other states, particularly South Australia and Western Australia had their own leagues and still do, but I was just generalizing and making it simpler for everyone.

As for being solely beneficial for the VFL, that may be true, but then again look at Rugby in Australia and NSW, they have their good share of teams at the expense of other states (and even NZ's sole team), because the history of the game comes from that region, despite the sport being played around Australia for decades.

I can see Moncton host a team based on the fact that they already have a modern stadium, that would just need that little bit more expansion to reach the 25,000 seater capacity.

Victoria could use the Centennial Stadium, probably different to what they did in the 1994 Commonwealth Games at a comparable capacity as well.

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Old May 15th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #3259
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I can see Moncton host a team based on the fact that they already have a modern stadium, that would just need that little bit more expansion to reach the 25,000 seater capacity.

Victoria could use the Centennial Stadium, probably different to what they did in the 1994 Commonwealth Games at a comparable capacity as well.
Why do you pick names out of the air and want to put franchises there? Franchises need three things, ownership, stadium and fanbase. Neither Moncton or Victoria has any of the three. Each has a small stadium that would need millions thrown at them to make them suitable for a permanent tenant and the size of an available fanbase is questionable. AFAIK neither has had anyone step forward showing the money.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 07:13 PM   #3260
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Why do you pick names out of the air and want to put franchises there? Franchises need three things, ownership, stadium and fanbase. Neither Moncton or Victoria has any of the three. Each has a small stadium that would need millions thrown at them to make them suitable for a permanent tenant and the size of an available fanbase is questionable. AFAIK neither has had anyone step forward showing the money.
Your statement regarding stadiums is valid, but not the other two. Claiming that a latent fan base does not exist simply because it has never an opportunity to form is a false premise. What are the viewership numbers for the CFL in those areas? That should give an idea of the potential fan base right there.

And how many times have leaders in the metro areas, or members of the CFL, asked if someone in those areas would be interested in owning a team? It sounds like you are basing that conclusion on the number of wealthy people standing at a downtown intersection yelling, "I have lots of money in my pockets!" Canada is a wealthy country. Canada is a thriving country. Somebody has to have the money.
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