daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > OZScrapers > Urban Spaces > Transportation

Transportation Trains, planes and automobiles.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 13th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #941
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussieboy View Post
I suspect we will get something like this:

This is assuming average speeds of 80km/h, which is very doable on those lines given the right timetabling
Which adds up to 45-50 minutes to BC with PT from the city. Only slightly better from Parra.

Only one conclusion can be drawn. BC will be an airport that serves western Sydney not greater Sydney. And as I pointed out before, with HSR, Wilton will have much higher patronage.
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old May 13th, 2013, 09:41 AM   #942
brianc68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,400
Likes (Received): 89

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyknightsfan
Both were existing Airports that have been upgraded - not really applicable to selecting a greenfield site. A more appropriate comparison would be saying we should go with Richmond, Bankstown, Newcastle or Canberra
IMO it should be Richmond or Bankstown.
brianc68 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 09:52 AM   #943
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianc68 View Post

IMO it should be Richmond or Bankstown.
Bankstown is too far
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 10:06 AM   #944
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Ok let me explsin myself better briefly since Im on a mobile.

The report writers in choosing BC relied heavily on an ecomic argument. They overestimated the cost of the engineerin at Wilton. They underestimated the cost of compensatiin at BC. They failed to think outside the box.

The cost of a simple single bore tunnel from the escarpment down to Woolongong would be somewhere between $1.4B and $1.8B.

Then planners estimated the cost of runway construction as anything up to $4B. But they did so assuming it would have to be excavated.
My point is that instead of excavating a runway into the terrsin you can raise it with fill. And here's the nice part. If you build a tunnel you get the required fill for nothing.

Or put the other wsy, you spend $3B on a runway and you get the basis of a HSR line to Woolongong thrown in.

In a word, synergy.

Ultimately the necessary comparison between the two propsals has not been done.

The present studies are an exercise in failure of process.

Edit: Now that I'm back on a PC I'll go further and say this.

What we should have is a study that compares Wilton on the basis that its runway can be completed, for less cost, in conjunction with building a high speed rail line, with Badgery's Creek on the basis that every single home affected under ANEF 20 should be bought out or fully compensated.

If they do the comparison on that basis and its still found that Badgery's is more viable despite less patronage and the compensation bill, then bring it on.

The current process however, has failed.
__________________

crazyknightsfan liked this post

Last edited by zoomwhoosh; May 13th, 2013 at 12:45 PM.
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 12:16 PM   #945
Avatar
Galactic Ruler
 
Avatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6,232
Likes (Received): 294

I still believe the best place for a new airport is to the north. The south is already served by Kingsford Smith. Wilton is moving the problem further away from the main population areas that patronise the airport. The suburbs to the North and NW are generally higher income than the far SW. The idea of a high speed line to the north connecting the CC and Newcastle IMO has slightly more benefit than the outer regional benefits from the south. While Newcastle has it's own airport it's not well located. A new Int aiport would benefit by being located somewhere between the northern Central Coast suburbs and the City. Unless of course part of the plan i to significantly also develop Newcastle airport and its transport links, in tandem with a new Int Airport to the south west of the city.
__________________
$5 fun time.
Avatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #946
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar View Post
I still believe the best place for a new airport is to the north. The south is already served by Kingsford Smith. Wilton is moving the problem further away from the main population areas that patronise the airport. The suburbs to the North and NW are generally higher income than the far SW. The idea of a high speed line to the north connecting the CC and Newcastle IMO has slightly more benefit than the outer regional benefits from the south. While Newcastle has it's own airport it's not well located. A new Int aiport would benefit by being located somewhere between the northern Central Coast suburbs and the City. Unless of course part of the plan i to significantly also develop Newcastle airport and its transport links, in tandem with a new Int Airport to the south west of the city.
Well there is a proposal for a new airport near Jilliby. That's on the northern Central Coast, just west of the F3.

Unfortunately to fully compensated those affected, it would cost a fair bit of money. Not as bad as Badgerys, but nowhere near as good as at Wilton.

Also, any such site north of the Hawkesbury would actually take longer, even with high speed rail access.

And just to repeat what I said before. Newcastle Airport is a RAAF airstrip that happens to allow some civilian access. The RAAF commented in a recent report that it has no intention to (and it would interfere with their own needs) to allow more flights in and out of Newcastle. Newcastle is simply a non starter.
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 12:48 PM   #947
Avatar
Galactic Ruler
 
Avatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6,232
Likes (Received): 294

If there is no scope to build up Williamtown then it makes it all the more pressing for a better solution for Northern Sydney, CC and Hunter residents IMO.
__________________
$5 fun time.
Avatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #948
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca-GC View Post
I think your sacrificing the achievable in aim of the ideal. The fact is that while a HSR would be very nice, let's face it: it simply isn't going to happen under the current economic or political circumstances. On top of that, even if it were built, trying to service the airport off it will just clog up the line at the expense of services between Sydney and Melbourne.

Now you're justifying building an airport at Wilton on an uncertain rail project that 'could' be built in 30-40 years, because unless you have a HSR, Wilton simply doesn't stack up. I totally agree with all the other reports that have been done on a second Sydney airport. Wilton is possible (I.e you could build an airport there). But Badgerys is better.

And the reasons for that are: shorter distances and travel times to most of Sydney and lower capital costs on direct and indirect infrastructure.

Now, seeing as you've proposed your ideal access to a Wilton Airport, my ideal access to Badgerys wouldn't be from Glenfield, but from a spur of the Western Express line. And yeah, let's say it averages 90km/hr, so that would take about 40mins from Central and 20 mins from Parramatta.

I don't think the idea of building a relatively cheap spur through the Cumberland Plain is all that unreasonable. Tunnelling down the Illawarra escarpment?
Now a direct reply. HSR has political issues but that's entirely related to cost. Badgerys has political issues of a higher order. For that reason I don't expect either to really get going for at least a decade.

And if you wish to consider the politics of it, consider this. Building a new airport that includes high speed rail may actually make BOTH projects more politically feasible and thus bring forward construction on BOTH projects.

Your ideal access system suffers one major flaw. In the political environment we have, and you suggest will continue, it won't happen either. Instead we'll build Badgerys and we'll extend a motorway and we'll extend the SWRL, and that's it. And in the next decade when we start building a HSR system we'll have the same politics going on. The vested interests in Badgerys will block proposals to build a third airport at Wilton.

Sometimes it is wise to take the long term view and do it right.

As others have pointed out, Wilton is actually the long term answer to not just augmenting Kingsford Smith, but replacing it outright.

And despite the vested interests in KS, the reality is its a whole lot of expensive real estate that might just tip the scales in terms of building a replacement airport, and building HSR, and getting that done sooner.

What we need are wise politicians who can think outside the box and don't just get their engineering insight from consultants.
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 01:03 PM   #949
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar View Post
If there is no scope to build up Williamtown then it makes it all the more pressing for a better solution for Northern Sydney, CC and Hunter residents IMO.
Yes, but where? Apart from Jilliby there's very little room left on the CC that isn't mountainous. And no matter how you do this you cannot escape having to provide just and generous compensation. This is why its so hard to sell a new airport, because previously they just didn't care.

I remember the aborted plan to build on Koorangag Island. Apart from the environmental concerns, what became clear was it would become a serious noise issue.

A better approach is to swallow the fact that you need a high speed rail line to service a new airport, and then ask the question where can you build it such that the noise won't affect anyone. There are other options of course.

One such option is to move the airport to a location within the ranges about equidistant from Lucas Heights and Wood Park. If you look carefully there's a flat enough spot in the ranges.

But then such a location would fail to make sense in terms of access to Woolongong. It would be just another spur to an airport rather than a spur to a large city in its own right.

The other problem we have here is that the HSR report as it stands (I have issues with this but anyhow) recommends starting with the Sydney to Canberra link, and that would happen in the early 2030s. There's no reason to bring that ahead a few years. And if BC is completed by the mid 2020s I'm happy to be stripped naked and..
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #950
Tyson
Registered User
 
Tyson's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,377
Likes (Received): 199

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoomwhoosh View Post
Ok let me explsin myself better briefly since Im on a mobile.

The report writers in choosing BC relied heavily on an ecomic argument. They overestimated the cost of the engineerin at Wilton. They underestimated the cost of compensatiin at BC. They failed to think outside the box.

The cost of a simple single bore tunnel from the escarpment down to Woolongong would be somewhere between $1.4B and $1.8B.

Then planners estimated the cost of runway construction as anything up to $4B. But they did so assuming it would have to be excavated.
My point is that instead of excavating a runway into the terrsin you can raise it with fill. And here's the nice part. If you build a tunnel you get the required fill for nothing.

Or put the other wsy, you spend $3B on a runway and you get the basis of a HSR line to Woolongong thrown in.

In a word, synergy.

Ultimately the necessary comparison between the two propsals has not been done.

The present studies are an exercise in failure of process.

Edit: Now that I'm back on a PC I'll go further and say this.

What we should have is a study that compares Wilton on the basis that its runway can be completed, for less cost, in conjunction with building a high speed rail line, with Badgery's Creek on the basis that every single home affected under ANEF 20 should be bought out or fully compensated.

If they do the comparison on that basis and its still found that Badgery's is more viable despite less patronage and the compensation bill, then bring it on.

The current process however, has failed.
Successive governments have dithered on this issue for so long that almost any solution is better than the present situation. I don't personally have any interest where they build it as long as they build one. I also don't think Badgerys Creek would be as political as some might think. There have been airport proposals on that site for decades and so should be little credibility to any NIMBY protest.

The problem, I think, with tying HSR to Wollongong to an airport at Wilton is that you are evaluating two different projects as if they were one - you are using one project as justification for the other.

The $3b or whatever price tag for Wilton is conditional on HSR being built to Wollongong, which in turn is conditional on HSR being built to Canberra, and if you need the spoil from the tunnel for the runway, then the airport cannot proceed until the HSR is done first. If any one of those things doesn't happen, then you cannot deliver the airport for that price.

In the end the decision on whether or not to build and airport at Wilton is going to come down to the patronage figures on a Wollongong HSR.
__________________
"The nail that sticks out gets hammered down."
- Japanese proverb

Macca-GC liked this post
Tyson no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 13th, 2013, 05:12 PM   #951
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyson View Post
Successive governments have dithered on this issue for so long that almost any solution is better than the present situation. I don't personally have any interest where they build it as long as they build one. I also don't think Badgerys Creek would be as political as some might think. There have been airport proposals on that site for decades and so should be little credibility to any NIMBY protest.

The problem, I think, with tying HSR to Wollongong to an airport at Wilton is that you are evaluating two different projects as if they were one - you are using one project as justification for the other.

The $3b or whatever price tag for Wilton is conditional on HSR being built to Wollongong, which in turn is conditional on HSR being built to Canberra, and if you need the spoil from the tunnel for the runway, then the airport cannot proceed until the HSR is done first. If any one of those things doesn't happen, then you cannot deliver the airport for that price.

In the end the decision on whether or not to build and airport at Wilton is going to come down to the patronage figures on a Wollongong HSR.
Yes, which is why more analysis should be done.

We already have the patronage models in the HSR report. And what that tells you is that Woolongong would be viable with a spur. So its viable in its own right. It doesn't depend on whether or not an airport sits on the route.

All I'm saying is, were the HSR there in the first place we wouldn't be having this argument. We'd instead be evaluating the two airport sites on that basis. And given that we won't have BC for at least another decade we should think carefully about the serious amount of money that would be saved.

As I said, given that we definitely need a new aiport - its going to happen sooner or later. And given that Woolongong would be viable. Its simply a matter of bringing it forward and thus making the airport cheaper to construct in its own terms.

Again, I've no problem with BC provided the compensation is done properly - and accounted for properly in the reporting (I don't think it has tbh). And provided we can accept that it will always be a subsidiary airport, more concerned with freight and local business traffic, never to replace KS as an international hub, and unable to win budget airlines without seriously discounting its charges.
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 12:10 AM   #952
Macca-GC
Robert Owen Fan!
 
Macca-GC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: London
Posts: 3,397
Likes (Received): 49

It's funny, that's the same argument my wife uses when she justifies going to a buy one-get the second half price sale. She says she's saving me money.

You're doing the same: "let's bring forward billions in extra spending for a HSR from Sydney to Canberra and add a spur to Woolongong - and that'll reduce the costs of building a new airport at Wilton."

No, it doesn't work like that.

I can't keep arguing this with you. I believe in the weight of all the many reports that have been done on Badgerys before, and I believe it is, in and of itself, the best option for a new Sydney Airport. You disagree with all of that, and that's fine.
Macca-GC no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 01:40 AM   #953
castrovalva
Registered User
 
castrovalva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 336
Likes (Received): 302

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussieboy View Post
I suspect we will get something like this:

This is assuming average speeds of 80km/h, which is very doable on those lines given the right timetabling
You've inspired me. So I have somewhat copied your style.

I don't know if this has already been discussed here or elsewhere. Sydney already has an orbital motorway. How about an orbital railway? This proposal connects all the major bits, and utilises existing alignments where it can.

__________________
"Scratch any red-blooded free-market-loving capitalist and you'll find someone who either wants a monopoly or government assistance." Michael Pascoe Source
castrovalva no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 03:06 AM   #954
Inego
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,305
Likes (Received): 44

Quote:
Originally Posted by castrovalva View Post
You've inspired me. So I have somewhat copied your style.

I don't know if this has already been discussed here or elsewhere. Sydney already has an orbital motorway. How about an orbital railway? This proposal connects all the major bits, and utilises existing alignments where it can.
With the SWRail Link nearing completion, your N-S western link is the only bit missing, and even then there is a link further east with the line from Parramatta to Liverpool via Granville. Admittedly Leppington is still around 10km direct from Badgery's Creek.....
Inego no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 03:47 AM   #955
AlphaBravo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East Melbourne & Wahroonga
Posts: 199
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by castrovalva View Post
You've inspired me. So I have somewhat copied your style.

I don't know if this has already been discussed here or elsewhere. Sydney already has an orbital motorway. How about an orbital railway? This proposal connects all the major bits, and utilises existing alignments where it can.

Looking at that map you can see the potential with Parramatta to epping line feeding into this loop if it were a reality.

It also reminds me of the old SATS plans that were drawn up in the late 60's. early 70's with ambitious rail and road projects for Sydney that were either half realised or never started. In SATS there was a plan to build a new rail line from Parramatta going branching to the south west through Bonnyrigg, St.Johns Park etc. I imagine this line (long abandoned now) extending towards Badgerys Creek in the SW and being a natural connection to the Parramatta to Epping link creating a new line extending from Chatswood through to Badgerys theoretically.

Just my dumb thoughts of what could be..
AlphaBravo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 06:26 AM   #956
Avatar
Galactic Ruler
 
Avatar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6,232
Likes (Received): 294

Just mentioning this as you put up the idea of a loop line, I want a harbour loop line, taking in the suburbs in the lower east and north shore, out as far as manly and then around to bondi, maybe an extension from the current edgecliff line.
__________________
$5 fun time.
Avatar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 12:24 PM   #957
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca-GC View Post
It's funny, that's the same argument my wife uses when she justifies going to a buy one-get the second half price sale. She says she's saving me money.

You're doing the same: "let's bring forward billions in extra spending for a HSR from Sydney to Canberra and add a spur to Woolongong - and that'll reduce the costs of building a new airport at Wilton."

No, it doesn't work like that.

I can't keep arguing this with you. I believe in the weight of all the many reports that have been done on Badgerys before, and I believe it is, in and of itself, the best option for a new Sydney Airport. You disagree with all of that, and that's fine.
Yes, it does work like that. But only if both things are what you actually need and will have separately regardless of whether they're planned together.

I don't believe in the assumptions used in the report. Sorry.
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #958
SurfRail
Yemeni Ambassador
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gold Coast
Posts: 1,995
Likes (Received): 621

My view is that anybody who thinks an HSR or indeed PT of any sort will be of any significant use in groundside transport to and from any airport in Sydney or its surrounds is deluding themselves. Even 25% of all movements sounds absurd to me if we are talking about anywhere other than YSSY. The others still have to get to and from somehow and BC is closer to most of the metropolitan area.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llib View Post
Using peoples comments as your signature on this forum is pretty feral. Maybe that's why you are interested in this subject.
SurfRail no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 01:04 PM   #959
KJBrissy
...........
 
KJBrissy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 11,669
Likes (Received): 1101

Precisely. And if you look at Western Sydney, if it were a city in it's own right, would be demanding it's own Airport. Not everyone want's to start or finish in the CBD. Yes a majority of people arriving in Sydney probably do, but not those leaving Sydney. Even if you work in the CBD, you probably live elsewhere.
__________________
"Traditionally what has hurt people has not been rising interest rates but rising unemployment. I don't care what rate you're paying, if you have a mortgage five times your income and you lose your job, you're toast."

Gerard Minack, chief economist at Morgan Stanley.
KJBrissy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 14th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #960
zoomwhoosh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,270
Likes (Received): 132

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJBrissy View Post
Precisely. And if you look at Western Sydney, if it were a city in it's own right, would be demanding it's own Airport. Not everyone want's to start or finish in the CBD. Yes a majority of people arriving in Sydney probably do, but not those leaving Sydney. Even if you work in the CBD, you probably live elsewhere.
Yes but exactly where is Western Sydney? I meant what suburbs. Is it west of the M7? Or is it west of Bankstown?

What about the Hills District? Which airport would you choose if you lived at Bella Vista?

In practice an airport at BC is more about freight and about local business. It certainly won't win International flights. And two thirds of Sydney's population are going to find KS more convenient thanks to the existing transport map.

In short, yes its fine to have a second airport but it'll still be a poor cousin to KS and does it justify the potentially $2B in compensation costs? Perhaps. But that's not in the report and should be.

As for the map that shows a 39 minute express train from Sydney CBD to BC over the existing line. Its more like 45 minutes. Once you take into account the detail, the curves, the inevitable stops at KS airport. It could be closer to 50.

As I said, given those sorts of times, you might as well give up and leave PT out of the equation. Even if you had a budget airline willing to set up at BC, the vast majority of users are going to drive there. And we're going to have another wave of motorways. And PT will come a poor second, as usual.

The 32 minute time from Parramatta is out of the question. That particular line has poor scope for quadruplication.

A loop line looks cute, but its simply a poor mans ways to access BC both from the Rooty Hill (almost) station and from Liverpool (say). Again rail planners simply lose sight of the fact that unless its going to average over 100Km/hr, everyone is going to use their car that can do so.

I'd love to talk about faster new rail lines for Sydney in general, but that's getting a bit out of scope.
zoomwhoosh no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
mandurahboyz

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu