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Old July 24th, 2013, 12:06 AM   #1561
joseph1951
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Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Design speed is 180 km/h. It is a disgrace though how Italy treats the railway after investing a shitload of money.
Yes.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 04:10 PM   #1562
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It's the same in Italy. .
yep, only the SNCF (French National Railroad Company) is a fully state-owned railways company in Europe..
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Old July 31st, 2013, 05:44 PM   #1563
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yep, only the SNCF (French National Railroad Company) is a fully state-owned railways company in Europe..
Sorry, I don't get this. SNCF is certainly state-owned, but so are many other railway companies in Europe. Unlike DB and FS the French State has split the track ownership from SNCF and rolled it (together with an unmanageable debt) into another state-owned company called RFF.

It should be said, though, that SNCF and RFF are not totally independent. For example, RFF is obliged to by its track maintenance services from SNCF without tendering. As far as I understand this was a demand by SNCF's trade unions.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 05:48 PM   #1564
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Sorry, I don't get this. SNCF is certainly state-owned, but so are many other railway companies in Europe. Unlike DB and FS the French State has split the track ownership from SNCF and rolled it (together with an unmanageable debt) into another state-owned company called RFF.
And SNCF and RFF are most probably going to re-merge into one single company very soon.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 10:59 PM   #1565
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And SNCF and RFF are most probably going to re-merge into one single company very soon.
yep, they don't like the EU DiRECTIVES....
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Old July 31st, 2013, 11:11 PM   #1566
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has split the track ownership from SNCF and rolled into another state-owned company called RFF.
that is not true.. and RFF it doesn't exist anymore... dear HANS... no, technically.. TRENITALIA S.P.A and DB A.G. are 'mixed' (private and state) company were (actually) the major shareholder is a state...and they split THE COMPANIES in two branch. ACCORDING TO EU DIRECTIVES.. ->SORRY MY ENGLISH
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Old August 1st, 2013, 10:54 AM   #1567
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that is not true.. and RFF it doesn't exist anymore... dear HANS... no, technically.. TRENITALIA S.P.A and DB A.G. are 'mixed' (private and state) company were (actually) the major shareholder is a state...and they split THE COMPANIES in two branch. ACCORDING TO EU DIRECTIVES.. ->SORRY MY ENGLISH
I have no objections to your English. But I have big problems with some of the "information" you offer. On what do you base your assertion that RFF doesn't exist anymore? I don't follow corporate France on a daily basis, but only last month when the so-called Duron Report (on future rail investment) was presented, the specialised press moaned about the further burdening of RFF with debt. Also, their website is still alive (rff.fr).

Also, as far as I know both Trenitalia (or, at least, FS) remains wholly state owned? What is more, I am certain that DB is state owned, because a planned partial privatisation was put on hold in 2011 amid much discussion in the German press. Both companies are incorporated as joint stock companies, that is true, but the state (in both cases?) owns all the shares.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 12:16 PM   #1568
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I have no objections to your English. But I have big problems with some of the "information" you offer. On what do you base your assertion that RFF doesn't exist anymore? I don't follow corporate France on a daily basis, but only last month when the so-called Duron Report (on future rail investment) was presented, the specialised press moaned about the further burdening of RFF with debt. Also, their website is still alive (rff.fr).

Also, as far as I know both Trenitalia (or, at least, FS) remains wholly state owned? What is more, I am certain that DB is state owned, because a planned partial privatisation was put on hold in 2011 amid much discussion in the German press. Both companies are incorporated as joint stock companies, that is true, but the state (in both cases?) owns all the shares.
io sto parlando dal punto di vista GIURIDICO, la comunità europea ha dato delle direttive, ovvero ha spinto per un processo di 'parziale' privatizzazione delle società ferroviarie nazionali, bene, in questo caso sia trenitalia che DB hanno ATTUATO tali direttive! tu mi chiederai.. come? SEMPLICE! hanno cambiato l'assetto statuario delle società, diventando, nel caso di Trenitalia una S.P.A. (Società Per Azioni) e nel caso tedesco di DB una A.G. (Aktiengesellschaft) poi sono state separate le società in due parti distinte.. parte servizi e parte infrastrutture!
(TRENITALIA S.P.A - RFI. S.P.A) e
(DB AG -DBNETZ AG)
IN FRANCIA INVECE LE SNCF SONO DELLE E.P.I.C (Établissement public à caractère industriel et commercial) e il loro ASSETTO SOCIETARIO È RIMASTO INVARIATO, oltre questo, il 14 novembre 2012 c'è stata la La riunificazione di SNCF-Infra e RFF (rispettivamente, le società di trasporto e dell’infrastruttura) e la riforma delle ferrovie francesi annunciata dal Ministro dei Trasporti Frederic Cuvillier. In pratica questa separazione FITTIZIA è stata definitivamente accantonata dallo Stato Francese il quale non è azionista delle SNCF ma espressione UNICA nel quadro giuridico francese delle SNCF.
in parole povere.. lo stato francese e le SNCF sono LA STESSA COSA

-- mi dispiace ma non ho una conoscenza così elevata della lingua inglese da tradurre questo messaggio, quindi ho scritto il mio messaggio in italiano

http://www.ferpress.it/?p=81209 (in italian only)

Last edited by superdupont; August 1st, 2013 at 03:48 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 12:48 PM   #1569
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Originally Posted by superdupont View Post
yep, they don't like the EU DiRECTIVES....
No, the EU directives merely state that the responsibility for the distribution of the network capacity over its users, cannot be one of those users. So there no need to split track ownership.
Despite this many countries have actually done a split, but have since found out that that causes a lot of extra bureaucracy.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 01:01 PM   #1570
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
No, the EU directives merely state that the responsibility for the distribution of the network capacity over its users, cannot be one of those users. So there no need to split track ownership.
i don't think so..


----->>>>>> Direttiva 91/440/Cee

, dispone la netta separazione

del sistema ferroviario dallo St
ato e, all’interno del siste-
ma ferroviario, delle attività di trasporto da quelle di ge-
stione dell’infrastruttura; si prevede, inoltre, un primo nu-
cleo di liberalizzazione che concede libero accesso all’in-
frastruttura ferroviaria ai raggruppamenti internazionali di
imprese che affettuano il trasporto combinato
9
;

Direttiva 95/18/Ce
, introduce il concetto di licenza
valida in tutta la comunità per i servizi liberalizzati e ne
stabilisce i requisiti per il rilascio;

Direttiva 95/19/Ce
, esamina la necessità di istituire in
ogni stato membro un organo preposto all’assegnazione
delle capacità su base non discriminatoria.
ETC...
http://www.giappichelli.it/stralcio/3481589.pdf
www.ferpress.it/?p=81209
comunque.. ti sarei grato se potessi confutare le tue affermazioni con qualche fonte attendibile.. grazie... (source please...)
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Despite this many countries have actually done a split, but have since found out that that causes a lot of extra bureaucracy.

Last edited by superdupont; August 1st, 2013 at 09:54 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 02:11 PM   #1571
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In pratica questa separazione FITTIZIA è stata definitivamente accantonata dallo Stato Francese il quale non è azionista delle SNCF ma espressione UNICA nel quadro giuridico francese delle SNCF.
Yes, in terms of operational efficiency this is indeed a very silly construct. It was (in my view) done for purely political reasons - and following a script that is sadly familiar here in France: the government did precisely what I wanted, but told the population that "we only do it because those bastards in Brussels force us!" In this case, the French state used the functional separation of SNCF and RFF to lift a massive debt out of the railway company, in a way which made it difficult for third parties to allege subsidization.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 02:39 PM   #1572
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Yes, in terms of operational efficiency this is indeed a very silly construct. It was (in my view) done for purely political reasons - and following a script that is sadly familiar here in France: the government did precisely what I wanted, but told the population that "we only do it because those bastards in Brussels force us!" In this case, the French state used the functional separation of SNCF and RFF to lift a massive debt out of the railway company, in a way which made it difficult for third parties to allege subsidization.
allora, per quanto mi riguarda io sono contro la liberalizzazione di un monopolio naturale come le ferrovie, ma, visto che siamo tutti nella UE e visto che la UE ha deciso di perseguire questa (secondo me..folle) idea di liberalismo estremo.. allora credo che sia molto importante che le regole siano uguali per tutti.. altrimenti si rischia di cadere in particolarismi.. che generano asimmetrie pericolose tra gli europei.. e questo secondo me non è giusto.. asimmetrie che alla lunga potrebbero anche causare delle incomprensioni pericolose tra gli stati le grandi corporazioni e i cittadini europei stessi..
cittadini che si sentono sempre più isolati in questo merdoso neo-feudalesimo industriale europeo del terzo millennio...
...poi scusa è.. ma.. quando una società è praticamente il braccio armato di uno stato nel cuore dell'Europa.. cosa gliene può fregare dei debiti...? e soprattutto..cosa gliene frega della concorrenza..?
una società del genere avrà sempre la 'premura' di scegliere gli stessi fornitori 'nazionali' di materiale rotabile e avrà sempre il modo di nascondere i propri debiti ecc..

Last edited by superdupont; August 1st, 2013 at 04:16 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 04:23 PM   #1573
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allora, per quanto mi riguarda io sono contro la liberalizzazione di un monopolio naturale come le ferrovie, ma, visto che siamo tutti nella UE e visto che la UE ha deciso di perseguire questa (secondo me..folle) idea di liberalismo estremo..
Well, let's see how well NTV does before passing judgement. I would, however, concede that structural separation of railways is a poorer solution than what has, for example, been done in Japan. The Japanese have split their old national railway monopoly into regional near-monopolies. Each of these regional companies are allowed to extend certain of their services into the neighboring regions, in competition with the neighbors. Like that, you get the best of both words: (1) the economies of scale from an integrated operation; and (2) a little "competition warning bell" to sound the alarm if one of the companies becomes un-competitive. This model was suggested to the EU model, but in the European mash of big and small nations it was really a non-starter.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 05:09 PM   #1574
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I would, however, concede that structural separation of railways is a poorer solution than what has, for example, been done in Japan. The Japanese have split their old national railway monopoly into regional near-monopolies. Each of these regional companies are allowed to extend certain of their services into the neighboring regions, in competition with the neighbors. Like that, you get the best of both words: (1) the economies of scale from an integrated operation; and (2) a little "competition warning bell" to sound the alarm if one of the companies becomes un-competitive. This model was suggested to the EU model, but in the European mash of big and small nations it was really a non-starter.
ma, ho già scritto il mio punto di vista, se la commissione con i suoi rappresentanti hanno emanato delle direttive.. credo che tali direttive debbano essere recepite da tutti i paesi UE nello stesso momento e con gli stessi criteri, altrimenti in futuro potrebbero esserci seri problemi tra i paesi EU..

P.S. non è mai una cosa buona avere nazioni in grossissime difficoltà economiche come vicini.. anche perché l'Europa non ha le dimensioni dell'America.. e non ci vuole poi molto a superare un confine e arrivare a Strasburgo o a Parigi oppure a Bruxelles ...

Last edited by superdupont; August 1st, 2013 at 10:57 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 08:17 PM   #1575
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Well, let's see how well NTV does before passing judgement. I would, however, concede that structural separation of railways is a poorer solution than what has, for example, been done in Japan. The Japanese have split their old national railway monopoly into regional near-monopolies. Each of these regional companies are allowed to extend certain of their services into the neighboring regions, in competition with the neighbors. Like that, you get the best of both words: (1) the economies of scale from an integrated operation; and (2) a little "competition warning bell" to sound the alarm if one of the companies becomes un-competitive. This model was suggested to the EU model, but in the European mash of big and small nations it was really a non-starter.
Any book of industrial organization will show that the market power of such arrangement is not really exposing incumbents to serious threat from competition. It is an environment outright designed for tacit collusion where the most you can get is pressure from the public on the regulators to force one of the regional monopolies to adopt

Rail infrastructure need to be really broken between a totally independent infrastructure owner, which can be some state entity, and the train operators. This mean "national rail companies" must be broken up in smaller entities, not on geographic basis, but - say - on basis of their rolling stock or something else, and then privatized or put out for long-term concession-based operation (not the short-term UK franchises, which don't promote competition either).

This would make the use of infrastructure, at the beginning, less efficient, but over time it would revolutionize rail transport more or less like the deregulation of air transport revolutionized air travel (even if you need plenty of unused runway capacity, even if there is no match between runway construction and guaranteed use, even if for some specific relations service no longer exists).
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Old August 1st, 2013, 09:18 PM   #1576
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Any book of industrial organization will show that the market power of such arrangement is not really exposing incumbents to serious threat from competition. It is an environment outright designed for tacit collusion where the most you can get is pressure from the public on the regulators to force one of the regional monopolies to adopt

Rail infrastructure need to be really broken between a totally independent infrastructure owner, which can be some state entity, and the train operators. This mean "national rail companies" must be broken up in smaller entities, not on geographic basis, but - say - on basis of their rolling stock or something else, and then privatized or put out for long-term concession-based operation (not the short-term UK franchises, which don't promote competition either).

This would make the use of infrastructure, at the beginning, less efficient, but over time it would revolutionize rail transport more or less like the deregulation of air transport revolutionized air travel (even if you need plenty of unused runway capacity, even if there is no match between runway construction and guaranteed use, even if for some specific relations service no longer exists).
senti, qui in Italia nessuno crede a queste CAZZATE iper-liberiste, però purtroppo l'unione europea ha deciso di intraprendere questo tipo di politica iper-liberista, e siccome adesso facciamo parte della UE (parlo di noi europei ovviamente) credo che sia giusto che noi e tutti gli altri paesi europei che hanno aderito alla UE debbano seguire tutti le STESSE REGOLE... FRANCIA COMPRESA...tutto qui.

Last edited by superdupont; August 1st, 2013 at 09:46 PM.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 04:16 AM   #1577
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Originally Posted by superdupont View Post
1-
.. credo che tali direttive debbano essere recepite da tutti i paesi UE nello stesso momento e con gli stessi criteri, altrimenti in futuro potrebbero esserci seri problemi tra i paesi EU..

2-
P.S. non è mai una cosa buona avere nazioni in grossissime difficoltà economiche come vicini..

...
1-
This also should include Italy as well......

2-
Such as Italy, perhaps.?


Note:
Superdpont appears to be yet another reincarnation of Jean-Marie de la Fayette a troll who, in the last two/three years, has been reincarnated about 12-15 times.

His main obsession is the "prepotence of France" a Country which, according to J.M. de la Fayette, (and his subsequent 14-15 aliases), intends to take over Italy.

His last reincarnation appeared on the international section about six months ag. He was promptly detected, and quickly banned.

As usual he has started a topic in the international section, as well as the Italian one, with the same subjects/obsessions.

He starts in English and continues in Italian...
Als he seems to be the twin brother of another foumer "buoyage system" who writes on the same topic on a new italian thread......

here is the thread:


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...808&highlight=

Last edited by joseph1951; August 2nd, 2013 at 06:12 PM.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 09:16 AM   #1578
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Any book of industrial organization will show that the market power of such arrangement is not really exposing incumbents to serious threat from competition. It is an environment outright designed for tacit collusion where the most you can get is pressure from the public on the regulators to force one of the regional monopolies to adopt

Rail infrastructure need to be really broken between a totally independent infrastructure owner, which can be some state entity, and the train operators. This mean "national rail companies" must be broken up in smaller entities, not on geographic basis, but - say - on basis of their rolling stock or something else, and then privatized or put out for long-term concession-based operation (not the short-term UK franchises, which don't promote competition either).

This would make the use of infrastructure, at the beginning, less efficient, but over time it would revolutionize rail transport more or less like the deregulation of air transport revolutionized air travel (even if you need plenty of unused runway capacity, even if there is no match between runway construction and guaranteed use, even if for some specific relations service no longer exists).
Now, be careful Suburbanist because I really don't need lessons in industrial economics. (Full disclosure: I'm a Senior Economist in an economics think-tank.) Of course what you say is mostly correct, but yours is a partial argument, which seems to confuse effectiveness and efficiency. Full structural separation is an effective way of obtaining productivity gains from increased competition. Whether it's efficient depends on whether the economies of scope and scale from an integrated operation are smaller or larger than these productivity gains.

Over a decade ago, based on such calculations, the International Transport Forum in Paris warned the EU Commission against assuming that a full structural separation was a first-best solution to enhance efficiency. It had just as much effect as if they hadn't said anything.

Last edited by hans280; August 2nd, 2013 at 11:19 AM.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 12:26 PM   #1579
M-NL
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Originally Posted by superdupont View Post
i don't think so..


----->>>>>> Direttiva 91/440/Cee

, dispone la netta separazione
del sistema ferroviario dallo St
ato e, all’interno del siste-
ma ferroviario, delle attività di trasporto da quelle di ge-
stione dell’infrastruttura; si prevede, inoltre, un primo nu-
cleo di liberalizzazione che concede libero accesso all’in-
frastruttura ferroviaria ai raggruppamenti internazionali di
imprese che affettuano il trasporto combinato
9
;

Direttiva 95/18/Ce
, introduce il concetto di licenza
valida in tutta la comunità per i servizi liberalizzati e ne
stabilisce i requisiti per il rilascio;

Direttiva 95/19/Ce
, esamina la necessità di istituire in
ogni stato membro un organo preposto all’assegnazione
delle capacità su base non discriminatoria.
ETC...
http://www.giappichelli.it/stralcio/3481589.pdf
www.ferpress.it/?p=81209
comunque.. ti sarei grato se potessi confutare le tue affermazioni con qualche fonte attendibile.. grazie... (source please...)
Sorry, but I can't read Italian and I will not use something like Google translate because of the high risk something is not translated properly.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 02:21 PM   #1580
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Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
1-



Note:
Superdpont appears to be yet another reincarnation of Jean-Marie de la Fayette a troll who, in the last two/three years, has reincarnated about 12-15 times.

His main obsession is the "prepotence of France" a Country which, according to J.M. de la Fayette, (and his subsequent 14-15 aliases), intends to take over Italy.

His last reincarnation appeared on the international section about six months ago, and he was promptly detected, and quickly banned.

As usual he has started a topic in the international section, as well as the Italian one, with the same topic.

He starts in English and continue in Italian...
Als he seems to be the twin brother of another foumer "buoyage system" who write on the same topic on a new italian thread

here is the thread:


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...808&highlight=
yet another french troll..
your argument doesn't make sense...
seriously man, you are ridiculous with your annoying and unnecessary post in our 3ds, and your knowledge about the Italian railways is.....ZERO.
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