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Old August 8th, 2013, 11:38 AM   #21
oneborneveryminute
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Why do I get a feeling this was only let out now to relieve the public anger at public transport and CIE after the DB strikes?
Because you naively believe everything you read on boards.ie?

Reality is public is angry with the government more than DB/CIE. They blame them for cutbacks.

In fact public is also pretty hostile to DU and MN at this time when there are cuts to carers allowances etc so no point asking for trouble by poking that wasps nest.
Sorry to disillusion your conspiracy theory fantasies.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 11:55 AM   #22
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A DART spur will require the 4 tracking of the northern line

Yes and it's overall probably the most expensive proposition too.



As an aside did anyone see that program on Irish railways on RTE a couple of weeks back? Frank McDonald of the Irish Times was laying in to MN as ludicrous. And than basically starts whacking off about how great DU is. I have said it before but it only reinforced my view that as long as it's on the southside it's more acceptable!
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Old August 8th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #23
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Reality is public is angry with the government more than DB/CIE. They blame them for cutbacks.
Over the strikes? I seriously doubt that. Most people I know are angry at the bus drivers and these are people who have taken many cutbacks over the past 5 years.

I'd usually be the last person to jump on a conspiracy theory bandwagon, in fact I don't even think this is a conspiracy. I just find the timing interesting, not saying it's not a real plan.

But maybe I am being a little naive.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 12:18 PM   #24
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Over the strikes? I seriously doubt that. Most people I know are angry at the bus drivers and these are people who have taken many cutbacks over the past 5 years.

I'd usually be the last person to jump on a conspiracy theory bandwagon, in fact I don't even think this is a conspiracy. I just find the timing interesting, not saying it's not a real plan.

But maybe I am being a little naive.
Fine Gael are vehement anti union. The reason arbitration worked so quick is because the gov knows they will be blamed. The criminal bankers are laughing at the Irish people with the connivance of the gov and ordinary workers are paying for the losses. On this occasion the public's sympathy is with the busmen on the whole.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 12:33 PM   #25
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Yes but wouldn't it terminate at St. Stephens Green in which case there would be an immediate link to Pearse and Heuston stations on the DART underground?
Yes, but that's two changes, whereas the Dart spur would require one. Access to national rail services is not one of Metro North's selling points. It would be more convenient to get a bus to Heuston than to go to SG and then wait for a Dart.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #26
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It would be more convenient to get a bus to Heuston than to go to SG and then wait for a Dart.
I don't think so.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 06:03 PM   #27
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MN and a rail link would co-exist very well. MN gets you to major interchange points and destinations within central Dublin, while the rail link connects Dublin Airport to the national network, which could enable direct journies from other cities across Ireland - both are vital connections for an Airport like Dublin which acts as a national hub, and wants to grow!
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Old August 8th, 2013, 08:02 PM   #28
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Except Metro North doesn't link the airport to the national rail network
It interchanges with the Maynooth line at Drumcondra, and as others have mentioned, DU at Stephen's Green.

There is also a possibility of extending the line from Estuary to Donabate station, which is just a few kilometres away.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 08:34 PM   #29
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MN and a rail link would co-exist very well. MN gets you to major interchange points and destinations within central Dublin, while the rail link connects Dublin Airport to the national network, which could enable direct journies from other cities across Ireland - both are vital connections for an Airport like Dublin which acts as a national hub, and wants to grow!
That's a very important point. For example, the sheer amount of business people that pass through everyday I'd imagine mainly get taxis because there is not really an alternative (apart from buses). This in itself is a enough reason for Dublin to have an airport rail link. It would make a really good first impression for people travelling to Ireland and MN would be the most efficient and impressive way to deliver it I think.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 08:37 PM   #30
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Yes, but that's two changes, whereas the Dart spur would require one. Access to national rail services is not one of Metro North's selling points. It would be more convenient to get a bus to Heuston than to go to SG and then wait for a Dart.
I don't know what you mean when you say there would be two changes. As far as I'm aware there would be one, at St Stephens Green. Wouldn't you go Airport to St Stephens Green on Metro North, then St Stephens Green to Pearse or Heuston on the Dart Underground?
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Old August 8th, 2013, 11:44 PM   #31
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That's a very important point. For example, the sheer amount of business people that pass through everyday I'd imagine mainly get taxis because there is not really an alternative (apart from buses). This in itself is a enough reason for Dublin to have an airport rail link. It would make a really good first impression for people travelling to Ireland and MN would be the most efficient and impressive way to deliver it I think.
We have the same situation here currently. Glasgow Airport isn't as busy as Dublin, but a lack of any real transport link forces people to get a £20 taxi, an even more expensive black hack, or take a Bus that costs £6 (despite the fact that you can get a regular bus for £1.95, and quite rightly pay the regular single, many people just arrived in the city get ripped off by bus drivers who will charge more, simply because it's from the airport). This doesn't help the airport at all, and just makes it awkward to get to the city.

The rail network is just about a mile or so south, and only a short spur is needed. The Scottish Government and SPT's failure to deliver the proposed rail link was absolutely tragic.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #32
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I don't know what you mean when you say there would be two changes. As far as I'm aware there would be one, at St Stephens Green. Wouldn't you go Airport to St Stephens Green on Metro North, then St Stephens Green to Pearse or Heuston on the Dart Underground?
What is so complicated about this? If I land at Dublin airport and want to go to Athlone, I would have to go to SSG, then drag my luggage to another train which would take me to Heuston, then get off and board the train to Athlone. An easier alternative would be getting on a direct bus to Heuston without the stress of going through what will be a hugely busy interchange, and put my feet up till I get to Heuston. Alternatively, a Dart spur which uses the Dart underground to take me to Heuston will also let me put my feet up until I arrive. An interchange at Drumcondra is next to useless for most people.

If I were in charge of planning transport, I would see the DU as the first element of a circle line that would be completed by something possibly following the alignment of the Phoenix Park tunnel. Then move Connolly national rail services to Broombridge or thereabouts and build a city bus station either near there or Heuston. Feed most Dublin bus services into peripheral Dart stations and expand Luas as necessary. Voila, you can pedestrianize the city centre. MN is a useless white elephant vanity project.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #33
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What is so complicated about this? If I land at Dublin airport and want to go to Athlone, I would have to go to SSG, then drag my luggage to another train which would take me to Heuston, then get off and board the train to Athlone.
Yeah and if you wanted to go to Sligo via a DART airport spur and DartU, you'd still have to get a train to Pearse, a second train to Connolly, and a third train to Sligo.

Neither Metro North or DartU + a spur would make every national rail journey a single change trip.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #34
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What is so complicated about this? If I land at Dublin airport and want to go to Athlone, I would have to go to SSG, then drag my luggage to another train which would take me to Heuston, then get off and board the train to Athlone. An easier alternative would be getting on a direct bus to Heuston without the stress of going through what will be a hugely busy interchange, and put my feet up till I get to Heuston. Alternatively, a Dart spur which uses the Dart underground to take me to Heuston will also let me put my feet up until I arrive. An interchange at Drumcondra is next to useless for most people.

If I were in charge of planning transport, I would see the DU as the first element of a circle line that would be completed by something possibly following the alignment of the Phoenix Park tunnel. Then move Connolly national rail services to Broombridge or thereabouts and build a city bus station either near there or Heuston. Feed most Dublin bus services into peripheral Dart stations and expand Luas as necessary. Voila, you can pedestrianize the city centre. MN is a useless white elephant vanity project.

I thought you were referring to the amount of changes needed to get onto the national rail network, i.e. to a national rail station. In which case it would be one, but I understand what you mean with regard to going to a destination outside of Dublin.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 01:55 PM   #35
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Except Metro North doesn't link the airport to the national rail network, namely to Connolly or Heuston stations. A Dart spur does.
This is the essential reason why I have always leaned towards DU in my preferences.

MN would undoubtedly have a great impact on transport for huge swathes of North Dublin. DU has the potential to integrate and transform the entire National Rail Network.

Even two of the "minor" elements are game changers. For example the need to 4 track the Northern line will substantially reduce potential travel times for the Enterprise service. Likewise, the electrification as far as Hazlehatch is basically the first step in the Electrification and upgrading of the entire Dublin Cork line.

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Old August 10th, 2013, 12:28 AM   #36
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Previously, I would have been very pro MN over the Dart spur, however after reading the comments on this it's made me realise that the spur alongside DU is badly needed to serve Dublin and the surrounding area! Yes MN would be great and all that but realistically, anyone who lives outside of Dublin say in Cork or Sligo, it really wouldn't benefit them. (who also pay taxes, remember) though DU and spur would compliment the entire rail network,especially those people who would arrive by rail at Heuston because they would be able to board the Dart to the Airport very easily, allowing for an efficient Airport connection.

Although I still do think MN should be built I don't think it should be priority, DU and the spur will do wonders for Dublin and I think everyone would agree. Without this spur and instead MN was favoured, anyone travelling to Dublin by rail to go to the Airport (Connolly, Pearse or Heuston) every single person would have to make their way to SSG in order to get MN to the airport (not very attractive now)

Am I right in saying that the Dart spur could also be built first and asap? Without DU being needed at right now? Then add DU later? I do think the next capital budget will favour DU over MN, but it is what Dublin badly needs in fairness.
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Old August 10th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #37
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If DU with the spur was built now, it will be used as an excuse to delay MN from ever being built.

So what you'll be left with is no metro for Swords, Ballymun etc. and a poor, windy rail link to the airport for Dubliners but good connection to Dublin airport for people outside Dublin.

I'd feel pretty fucking ripped off to be honest..

Like I said:
Build DU
Build MN
Then we'll talk about the DART spur to the airport.


If the spur was built without DU, you'll get a long, slow and unfrequent rail link to Dublin airport from Connolly and nothing more.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 05:01 AM   #38
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Agree but the DART system is in fact excellent with very frequent trains and I have not seen better abroad for frequency tbh and I have been in many cities in various countries. The DART is very good. For that reason a spur is attractive.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #39
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Agree but the DART system is in fact excellent with very frequent trains and I have not seen better abroad for frequency tbh and I have been in many cities in various countries. The DART is very good. For that reason a spur is attractive.
Oops sorry that was a typo, I meant if it was built without any of the DU projects. As in if we simply add the airport line to the current DART system.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #40
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Couple of logic bombs in this 'proposal'. Frankly I see it as the annual CIE 'kite' to get some Capex. They were going to bring in 160-200kph working on Cork - Dublin in their 2011 or 2012 'kite'. Funny that 'kite' never got traction despite the _seemingly_ reasonable cost.

Anyway.

1. The original DU plan never included a spur to the airport. Up north DU was really only going to run longer trains to Balbriggan ( or Drogheda depending on spin that week) and not really increase frequencies northbound but rather increase lengths and stabling possibilities at the end of the line.
2. The airport spur would require more track from Clongriffin to Connolly for it to be any use, around 15km of quad track which would cost a fortune given ever bridge would need redoing and many homes and gardens would have to go alongside.
3. The spur would therefore add around €1bn to the overall cost of DU ...which was €2bn anyway with no quad track north of Connolly or an airport spur at Clongriffin.. A full MN would not cost much more than that and it would serve Berties Diceys electors too where the Quad/Spur would be a major annoyance to Diceys colleague Richard.
4. The only feasible 'yellowpack' variant would be a shuttle from Clongriffin to Airport on a single track and with the northbound track from Connolly remaining at 2 lines...a bit like the way Howth operates. Requiring change at Clongriffin. That would cost around €300m at least....the way CIE piss thru cash....even with only one shuttle train on a single line.
5. If one really wants a 'fractional' or staged DU one should start by electrifying to Clonsilla and running Bray-Clonsilla trains.

I'd be expecting a monorail story to leak out of CIE by christmas or whenever the next strike is due. I suspect this kite issued once CIE were 100% certain that the underground station box at O'Connell bridge is off the Luas BXD enabling works plans for sure, meaning the RPA cannot realistically build MN any more and only CIE can 'get to' the Airport either be Bus or Dart Spur.
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