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Old August 21st, 2013, 08:20 PM   #7601
LNGCats
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In fact, anyone know where the phase 1 consultation details are online?

Would love to see what was produced.

From memory it led to the odd tunnel and minor realignment didn't it?

Am I right in thinking that, like what we're expecting for phase 2, all the requests for significant changes were rejected. If so, were explanations for those rejections provided? I don't remember seeing any.

Added to that, the locations of the consultation tell you all you need to know about what HS2 and the DfT expect from the consultation process.

To enable loads of construction into Merseyside would require a consultation on that route.

No consultation is planned for Merseyside.

Such work is not in scope for this consultation process hence phase 2.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 08:28 PM   #7602
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Here you go...

http://www.hs2.org.uk/design-refinement-consultation

Phase 1 consultation.

I'm expecting even fewer amendments during phase 2 and there were hardly any at phase 1 given the countryside is less controversial and cost now more an issue.

Also, didn't 'stop HS2' claim the consultation was not fair as it was predetermined since nothing really changed? They obviously lost their court case on this and the DfT won.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 08:41 PM   #7603
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And here is the response from DfT/HS2 to the phase 1 consultation...

http://www.hs2.org.uk/draft-environm..._dropdown=401#

I think some will be very sadly disappointed at the end of this when they don't get the reasons they're expecting in response to the consultation.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 10:13 PM   #7604
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HS2 travels a slippery line between benefits and costs - http://feeds.theguardian.com/c/34708...ts/story01.htm

- sent from the Guardian Anywhere app

Worrying.

I can see Labour's support for this slipping away.

Would love to know what these alternative ways to increase capacity are.

Oh, yet the penny still won't drop for many that the cost really is all that matters with this.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:09 AM   #7605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNGCats View Post
HS2 travels a slippery line between benefits and costs - http://feeds.theguardian.com/c/34708...ts/story01.htm

- sent from the Guardian Anywhere app

Worrying.

I can see Labour's support for this slipping away.

Would love to know what these alternative ways to increase capacity are.

Oh, yet the penny still won't drop for many that the cost really is all that matters with this.
Just the first bit to Birmingham to free up capacity in the South East? This is always about London growing, that's all it needs and access to Birmingham airport.

How does phase 1 stack up and what would the result of using classic compatible on the west coast route be?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:17 AM   #7606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadboy View Post
Just the first bit to Birmingham to free up capacity in the South East? This is always about London growing, that's all it needs and access to Birmingham airport.

How does phase 1 stack up and what would the result of using classic compatible on the west coast route be?
Post Phase 1 that's what the service provision would be, if the project goes ahead.

Indeed, if they simply stopped building at Birmingham that's exactly the service that everyone else would continue to receive.

Reduced journey times, Liverpool would then be 110 minutes from London (which is via Warrington not Runcorn), Preston 108 minutes, and Manchester just 100 minutes from London, Birmingham is 50 minutes.

Of course, if that was to be the sum of the work then they could take Virgin up on their recommendation and have tilting classic compatible HS trains introduced - that would then reduce times further (plus, I expect that Liverpool's trains could revert to Runcorn and gain further time savings), and certainly benefit the Scottish services (post Phase 1 without tilt Glasgow would be 4h, which is a 30min saving over current) http://railnews.mobi/news/2013/05/22...about-hs2.html
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:21 AM   #7607
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I don't think some people understand that if the hybrid bill is passed it commits HS2 Ltd to build the entire 'Y'. So any speculation that HS2 will go no further than the Birmingham area belongs firmly in the fantasy thread. If HS2 is built, then it will be built as Parliament intends. No more and no less.

Meanwhile the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce has dismissed the IEA 'report' in no uncertain terms...
Quote:

“Overall the report is in many areas flimsy and unsubstantiated and no account is given to the disastrous results of not building HS2,” said Blackett. “They ignore the broader impact of the gridlock on the West Coast mainline that will result if we do nothing.
http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/0...substantiated/
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 03:12 AM   #7608
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I don't think some people understand that the hybrid bill is not yet passed, and may not yet pass before the next election, which could be highly problematic http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/p...cle3815673.ece

Being on what is already described elsewhere as a tight timescale to be passed before election, I don't think some people understand how that might make it vulnerable, say if there was any delay caused by some sort of issue or problem.

As for legally committing over legally enabling, not really worth commenting on that point. However, in any case, my understanding is that it is only Phase 1's enabling hybrid bill that the UK aims to achieve royal assent for in time for 2015 (which would enable full steam ahead, but only to Birmingham), with Phase 2's bill not due till after the election...

I'll believe what's being built when I see shovels in the ground, and trains are on order. If those trains tilt, then that might be telling.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:38 AM   #7609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadboy View Post

Just the first bit to Birmingham to free up capacity in the South East? This is always about London growing, that's all it needs and access to Birmingham airport.

How does phase 1 stack up and what would the result of using classic compatible on the west coast route be?
Economic case for phase 1 is crap, it needs phase 2 to justify the spend otherwise it's a terrible CBR.

There are also bad, although not as bad as south of Rugby, congestion around Stoke into Manchester that needs dealing with and won't be cheap.

To be clear, if HS2 and the treasury came out and said only going to Brum was the best realistic way of doing this I'd willing sort that as a way of reliving the southern capacity issues.

I cannot see the treasury buying into a scheme choosing about £20bn with a negligible CBR.

Edit.

The 2012 CBR have these figures, they'll be updated in the autumn....

Phase 1 - 1.4 riding to 1.7 if wider economic benefits are included
Phase 2 (including phase 1) - 1.9 rising to 2.5 if wider economic benefits are included.

You can see with those relatively low CBR exactly why any new cost will not be acceptable to the treasury, this scheme is already targeting the highest CBR options.

The politics of this are now entirely about cost, other than four the odd MP along the route.

Keep costs down, keep the treasury happy, hybrid bill sails through parliament.

It's that simple.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:41 AM   #7610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
I don't think some people understand that if the hybrid bill is passed it commits HS2 Ltd to build the entire 'Y'. So any speculation that HS2 will go no further than the Birmingham area belongs firmly in the fantasy thread. If HS2 is built, then it will be built as Parliament intends. No more and no less.

Meanwhile the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce has dismissed the IEA 'report' in no uncertain terms...

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/0...substantiated/
Indeed.

And I don't think many recognise just how close this is to happening and how unless the coalition collapse prior to May 2015 then this will pass through parliament without an issue.

Forget the odd MP getting upset.

Think treasury over and over again.

Keep them happy, this will almost certainly happen.

Upset the treasury, no chance.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:13 AM   #7611
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The relevant legislation....

http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/hs2-hybrid-bill

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/...eparation.html

The funding bill seems to be passing ok so far and will be passed soon.

I suggest people read it...


http://www.publications.parliament.u..._en_2.htm#l1g1

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You are here: Parliament home page > Parliamentary business > Business Papers > Public Bills before Parliament > Bill home page
High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill (HC Bill 96)
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Contents page 1-2 Last page


A
BILL

[AS AMENDED IN PUBLIC BILL COMMITTEE]
TO
Make provision authorising expenditure in preparation for a high speed
railway transport network.
Be it enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and
consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present
Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—
1Preparatory expenditure
(1)The Secretary of State may, with the approval of the Treasury, incur
expenditure in preparation for a high speed railway transport network.
(2)The network referred to in subsection (1) is a network which—
(a)5involves the construction of railway lines connecting at least—
London,
Birmingham,
the East Midlands,
Sheffield,
10Leeds, and
Manchester, and
(b)connects with the existing railway transport network.
(3)The expenditure which may be incurred under subsection (1) includes
expenditure on—
(a)15preparation for the construction of any railway line and any other
infrastructure proposed to be included at any time in the network
referred to in subsection (1), and
(b)preparation for the provision of services as part of that network.
(4)The expenditure mentioned in subsection (3) includes expenditure incurred—
(a)20on pre-construction activity (such as surveying and design),
(b)in acquiring property, and
High Speed Rail (Preparation) BillPage 2

(c)in providing compensation in respect of property likely to be affected.
(5)In this Act, references to incurring expenditure include incurring liabilities.
(6)Expenditure incurred under this section is to be defrayed out of money
provided by Parliament.
25Financial reports
(1)The Secretary of State must prepare a report on expenditure under section 1 in
relation to each financial year.
(2)Each report must contain details of—
(a)expenditure incurred under section 1 during the financial year to which
10the report relates (with capital and resource expenditure specified
separately in respect of each head of expenditure referred to in section
1(4)(a) to (c));
(b)total expenditure incurred under section 1 up to the end of that year;
(c)sums or assets received in that year in connection with expenditure
15incurred under section 1.
(3)In this section, “financial year” means—
(a)the period beginning with the day on which this Act is passed and
ending with 31 March 2015, and
(b)each subsequent period of 12 months.
(4)20The Secretary of State must lay each report under this section before
Parliament as soon as is reasonably practicable after the end of the financial
year to which it relates.
(5)No report is required in relation to a financial year in which there is nothing to
record under subsection (2)(a) and (c).
325Extent, commencement and short title
(1)This Act extends to England and Wales and to Scotland.
(2)This Act comes into force on the day on which it is passed.
(3)This Act may be cited as the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Act 2013.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:33 AM   #7612
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Andrew Bridgen, the Tory MP for Leicestershire North West, has called for the project to be scrapped. He believes the bogus figure, but hopefully he's whistling in the wind.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:35 AM   #7613
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Anti's will believe anything that supports their view. Leicester isn't on HS2, boo hoo.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:38 AM   #7614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larven View Post
Anti's will believe anything that supports their view. Leicester isn't on HS2, boo hoo.
Leicester isn't on the HS2 route, but the route goes through his constituency (where East Midlands Airport is), and he's looking after himself first.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:38 AM   #7615
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Worth remembering that the "High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill" second reading sailed through 325 / 37 in July (maybe June).

Would not surprise me if Andrew Bridgen was one of those 25 that voted against.

Either way - it yet again emphasises that the main issue is cost.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Control cost and it'll be fine.

Edit - yes he was one of the rebels when HS2 went through in the early summer...

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/divisio...&house=commons

Not a surprise.

Add half a dozen MPs from an area where the local reps all feel aggrived - would it make a difference? I don't see it personally. In fact, as said before, the toughness over cost would probably do more to sure up support elsewhere in the country.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:40 AM   #7616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LNGCats View Post
Worth remembering that the "High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill" second reading sailed through 329/25 in July (maybe June).

Would not surprise me if Andrew Bridgen was one of those 25 that voted against.

Either way - it yet again emphasises that the main issue is cost.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Control cost and it'll be fine.
He has past form for voting against every bit of HS2-related legislation, and he certainly voted against that, and he'll presumably vote against the legislation to come.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:44 AM   #7617
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See my upgdated message.

Yep, he voted against.

Note the spread of where the MPs were from who voted against.

Bury, Brum, Huddersfield.

And some imagine the odd couple of MPs in Liverpool, Sheffield or Nottingham will make the slightest difference.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:07 AM   #7618
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@HS2NW:

BBC News - Patrick McLoughlin: #HS2 'to stay on budget' http://bbc.in/14WI9sT

--


Any people still think extra budget will be found to increase the network to places with a poor business case.

Amazing.

What needs to happen for some people to realise there is no more money to increase the size of the network?

What does McLoughlin, the DfT, HS2 or the treasury need to say to make it any clearer?

There is no more money.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:08 AM   #7619
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I haven't got time for the odd aggrieved MP.

I remember when Barnsley MP Dan Jarvis said the South Yorkshire HS2 station should be located in Barnsley. How l laughed. It's nothing more than extremely cynical local politics at work and an insult to the intelligence of those who might know even a little bit about the scheme.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:11 AM   #7620
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@HS2NW:

RT @alexcburrows #HS2 beware the naysayers! http://wp.me/pUjxw-5t

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