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Old August 24th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #481
KonstantinasŠirvydas
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An example not far from my home.

Unknown and not interesting building somewhere in the New Town of Vilnius.
Asymmetric. With accented architectonics of the building. With terraces and loggias. With original plan of the building. With the flats, composed not in an enfilade order, but freely. With bathrooms in every flat. But less decorated from the outside. With less repetitive elements. With less factory made sculptures. Without archetypical elements. So, sadly, more creative. Hence, not cool.

http://vilniausgidas.lt
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Old August 24th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #482
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Hey folks, lets settle down please and enjoy the beauty of Art Nouveau
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Old August 24th, 2013, 06:11 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonstantinasŠirvydas View Post
Most of the details were actually... Factory made. Factory made things can't be considered art.
It was not Pee of Duchamp/Dušampa pisuārs yet.

Gaudi was not making his sculptures at factory.

Kitsch is basically pretentious absence of taste.
When something is just screaming how it is in some way wealthy, pure, tasteful, but actually is not because of some things, lying on the surface.

Also, architecture ain't design. Those buildings do look like things, made by designers, not an architect.

www.photoriga.com

Plus. Is it really art nouveau?
Seems more like elaborate, decorative eclectic architecture in classical, symmetric composition with repetitive, factory-made elements, what are trying to hide an absence of the idea.
Sounds that you don't have a lot of idea, of what you're talking about.

First of all your theory that art has to be handmade is complete nonsense. Andy Warhol created hundreds of pictures, which he printed in a high number of editions. Pop art is art out of a factory. What is music, literature performing and other not material art? It is not handmade.

Your complaints that Eisenstein used mainly factory made decoration only shows that you have no idea what Jugendstil or art nouveau is. In first line it is not a an art mouvement but a decoration style developped to use for factory made goods and for craftwork. That's why art nouveau is also called arts and crafts. It is typically for Jugendstil that the products are factory made. Accusing art nouveau that it is factory made means accusing art nouveau to be art nouveau.

To equalize rich decoration with kitch, shows few knowledge of the history of art. Decoration in rokoko is much richer than everything Eisenstein planned. Anyway nobody would consider the abbey of Zwiefalten and other rokoko masterpieces as kitch.

image hosted on flickr

Zwiefalten - Abbey von Martin M. Miles auf Flickr

I have no idea, why you dispute Eisensteins buildings to be art nouveau. Can you show us one peace of decoration which is part of another style than art nouveau?

I don't find anything one can consider as something else than art nouveau. Of course art nouveau of its best.

Finally, do you know anything about the history of the buildings you show us as less spectacular examples of art nouveau in Riga? Couldn't it be possible, that they don't look the same way anymore, they looked when they were built. In Germany thousands of jugendstil buildings lost parts or whole of their decoration during time. After WW 1 it was a movement to clean facades from rich stucco. In communism buildings fell almost in disrepair and stucco was knocked off for safety reasons. Expecially your last example looks very much that there was much more ornament in in the original condition.

Last edited by GhostOfDorian; August 24th, 2013 at 07:31 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #484
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thank you for all of you for all these works....
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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galro View Post
Liberty style in Bari, Italy: Palazzo Mincuzzi.




Source: http://www.impresaresta.it/palazzo-mincuzzi-bari/
Marvelous detail.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:38 AM   #486
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Quote:
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Joyous and wonderful. The white and gold alternating with the richness of brilliant color is so very beautiful.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:11 PM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galro View Post
Liberty style in Bari, Italy: Palazzo Mincuzzi.







Source: http://www.impresaresta.it/palazzo-mincuzzi-bari/
It's definitely a wonderful building, but I don't see the signs beeing liberty style. I would classify it as neo rokoko.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:26 PM   #488
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KonstantinasSirvydas #467 #469.

Thanks for uploading the picture of an example of Vilnius art Nouveau. You made one interesting comment about the (almost) absence of Art Nouveau buildings in Vilnius: destroyed during the period 1944-1970. Could you please mention some? I know only one Art nouveau building that disappeared during the cause of time: a Polish theater in Bernardines Garden. My suggestion of the lack of pure Art nouveau buildings in Vilnius compared to Riga is that in Tsarist times the city was degraded as a provincial town and apparently the overall taste of those who commissioned buildings at the time had a rather conservative taste.

I have some problems to understand why you are showing that elaborately Riga building by Michail Eisenstein in Elizabetes street as an example of industrial production of ornamentation and THUS as an example of Kitsch. Learning from Eisenstein's biography one can read that he was drawing all of his sculpted details himself, and everything was produced in a workshop probably by sculptor August Volz. So no industrial design at all! The building you are showing has one particular story: He designed female figures on the facade, but when he found out that these kind of sculptures were already applied on a building in Vienna, he had the figures removed in order to replace them with decorations with flamed bowls. His son, famous film director Sergei Eisenstein, recalled in his memoires that he had seen the destroyed female sculptures from this facade which gave him inspiration for a scene in the film 'Red October' in which sculptures are being destroyed at the Winter Palace.

So ok, if you don't like the 10 or so buildings built by Eisenstein its your right, just as many still like them. But besides those 10 there are still dozens more of buildings in 'National Romanticism' in Riga, so I don't see your point of exclaiming that Riga is "totally overrated".

Then I would recommend you and other SSC-visitors to lay your hand on the best billingual publication currently available on Riga Art Nouveau:

Janis Krastins, Rigas Jugendstila Ekas / Art Nouveau Buildings in Riga. A guide to Art Nouveau Metropolis (Riga 2012)
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Old August 25th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostOfDorian View Post
First of all your theory that art has to be handmade is complete nonsense. Andy Warhol created hundreds of pictures, which he printed in a high number of editions. Pop art is art out of a factory. What is music, literature performing and other not material art? It is not handmade.
Wake up and smell the coffee. What post-modernism with its fake art of the second half of the 20th century has to do with art nouveau of the 1900s?
When Duchamp fooled people, that this is GREAT art:

???

And then the art nouveau perished?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostOfDorian View Post
Your complaints that Eisenstein used mainly factory made decoration only shows that you have no idea what Jugendstil or art nouveau is. In first line it is not a an art mouvement but a decoration style developped to use for factory made goods and for craftwork. That's why art nouveau is also called arts and crafts. It is typically for Jugendstil that the products are factory made. Accusing art nouveau that it is factory made means accusing art nouveau to be art nouveau.

Yeah right. Only You forgot to mention thousands and thousands of examples of hand made real art, thousands of buildings, fence gates, furniture, paintings,...

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Originally Posted by GhostOfDorian View Post
To equalize rich decoration with kitch, shows few knowledge of the history of art. Decoration in rokoko is much richer than everything Eisenstein planned. Anyway nobody would consider the abbey of Zwiefalten and other rokoko masterpieces as kitch.
Was rococo art of the 18th century, its sculptures, interiors made at factory? Was it repetitive, standard, not original?
Was it trying to hide an absence of the idea with decoration?
Here, for example, the whole structure of the interior is based on St. Augustine philosophy and the whole interior is like a philosophy book for a Christian:


Gaudi too was creating his art, based on philosophy, the order of the decoration MEANS something.

Is there any idea in Eisenstein's decor?

Eizenstein versus rococo architects and sculptors is like Leonardo da Vinci and Johann Sebastian Bach versus Jasper Johns and Lady Gaga.

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Originally Posted by GhostOfDorian View Post
I have no idea, why you dispute Eisensteins buildings to be art nouveau. Can you show us one peace of decoration which is part of another style than art nouveau?

I don't find anything one can consider as something else than art nouveau. Of course art nouveau of its best.
Art nouveau is asymmetric, with accented architectonics of the building, with creative, original details (sculptures, decorations), various asymmetric towers or bay windows.

Famous () buildings in Riga at the Silent Center - symmetric, built in classicist manner, with the same elements again and again and again, repetitive, not creative decorations and details. Pure eclectic architecture.
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Last edited by KonstantinasŠirvydas; August 25th, 2013 at 05:38 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 06:28 PM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ypenhof View Post
KonstantinasSirvydas #467 #469.

Thanks for uploading the picture of an example of Vilnius art Nouveau. You made one interesting comment about the (almost) absence of Art Nouveau buildings in Vilnius: destroyed during the period 1944-1970. Could you please mention some? I know only one Art nouveau building that disappeared during the cause of time: a Polish theater in Bernardines Garden. My suggestion of the lack of pure Art nouveau buildings in Vilnius compared to Riga is that in Tsarist times the city was degraded as a provincial town and apparently the overall taste of those who commissioned buildings at the time had a rather conservative taste.
I wouldn't call it absence. There are buildings in art nouveau even in the most visible places like Town Hall Square, Gediminas avenue, Jogaila street, etc.
Also, some buildings are larger than any building of that period in Riga.
But You are right, Tsarist administration was developing Riga as industrial center and as a Russian port city and the development of Vilnius was deliberately slowed down. In 1812 Vilnius with some 60 000 inhabitants was larger than Riga, Kiev or any other city in Russian Empire except only St. Petersburg and Moscow. But after many uprisings, "local extremism", unrests, Filomats and Filarets cases, many churches, monasteries were torn down, the largest university of Europe was closed down, one of the largest botanical garden was destroyed, the city began to stagnate (only 215 000 inhabitants before the WWI, only 10th largest). But because of this, Vilnius saved its character of noble palaces and gardens, monasteries and churches dominate many streets, medieval cityscape in the Central part was not belittled by the monotonic housing for a factory workers.

There are many lost buildings on Vokiečių (German) street, Aušros Vartų street, Gediminas avenue, Town Hall square, Basanavičius street and many other places. Some of these were destroyed in the 1950s and 1960s.










The most magnificent art nouveau interiors of Zalkind shopping mall, art nouveau cinema on Gediminas avenue, Central Post office interiors, some interiors of cafes on Gediminas avenue and Pilies streets, interiors of the hotels of the 1900s and many others were destroyed in 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ypenhof View Post
I have some problems to understand why you are showing that elaborately Riga building by Michail Eisenstein in Elizabetes street as an example of industrial production of ornamentation and THUS as an example of Kitsch. Learning from Eisenstein's biography one can read that he was drawing all of his sculpted details himself, and everything was produced in a workshop probably by sculptor August Volz. So no industrial design at all! The building you are showing has one particular story: He designed female figures on the facade, but when he found out that these kind of sculptures were already applied on a building in Vienna, he had the figures removed in order to replace them with decorations with flamed bowls. His son, famous film director Sergei Eisenstein, recalled in his memoires that he had seen the destroyed female sculptures from this facade which gave him inspiration for a scene in the film 'Red October' in which sculptures are being destroyed at the Winter Palace.
I have some nice books about art nouveau of the Russian Empire. There are a lot of information about those factory-made details. These were usually created in the factory, using industrial method, then brought to the building site already made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ypenhof View Post
So ok, if you don't like the 10 or so buildings built by Eisenstein its your right, just as many still like them. But besides those 10 there are still dozens more of buildings in 'National Romanticism' in Riga, so I don't see your point of exclaiming that Riga is "totally overrated".
I've spent months in Riga and saw all these buildings. Yes, Riga is overrated. Calling it World Capital of Art Nouveau (like many Latvian tourist brochures do) is really silly and funny.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:51 PM   #491
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Thanks for your reply and pictures. I know the streets where the Second World War left its scars in Vilnius, but returning to the original topic about Art Nouveau that has disappeared in Vilnius, I can only recognize that the building behind the Old Town Hall had a few Art Nouveau features. So can I conclude that mostly interiors suffered modernization ('less is more') by the Soviets? The Zalkind Shopping mall I don't know and I'm curious about it, but judging from the neo-classisist facade of the General Post office in Gedimino avenue, I suspect that its original interior must have been eclectic too.

I've been spending months in Riga and Liepaja too, exploring all kind of Art Nouveau and Art Deco buildings, and besides I do own a decent collection of contemporary literature about this topic like the yearbooks of the Riga architects society 1907-1913. But my own conclusion is that Riga is of course not 'the world capital' but is nevertheless one of the big Art Nouveau centers in Europe with a rich diversity of Art Nouveau styles.

You may call the slogans of the Latvian tourist brochures silly and funny, but the very nature of slogans in most tourist brochures, also in Lithuania and my native Netherlands, are usually simplistic and exaggerated...
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Old August 25th, 2013, 10:22 PM   #492
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Probably my favorite style. Keep them coming.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 01:03 AM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ypenhof View Post
Thanks for your reply and pictures. I know the streets where the Second World War left its scars in Vilnius, but returning to the original topic about Art Nouveau that has disappeared in Vilnius, I can only recognize that the building behind the Old Town Hall had a few Art Nouveau features.
There, of course, were more around the square on all three sides. Now, only two art nouveau buildings left on the Town Hall square, in 1940, there were like dozen of them. The New Guild, the Lithuanian hotel, five buildings in the place where ugly soviet monster is, 5-storey building in a place of 3-storey old-like building on the opposite site of the square and so on.

Also, as example, there is a huge potato field on Vilnius street near Radvila palace. Huge art nouveau buildings were there.

A school, where Czeslaw Milosz/Česlovas Milošas learned, had had many art nouveau features (towers, decor, windows), but around 1950s, all the decor was destroyed... Now it looks like soviet building...

And many more examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ypenhof View Post
So can I conclude that mostly interiors suffered modernization ('less is more') by the Soviets? The Zalkind Shopping mall I don't know and I'm curious about it, but judging from the neo-classisist facade of the General Post office in Gedimino avenue, I suspect that its original interior must have been eclectic too.
I will search for the photos of the interior of the Zalkind shopping mall. It was veeeery impressive. This interior was totally destroyed, when in the 1950s it was decided by Russians, that former Zalkind shopping mall must be converted into the cinema "Moscow". Thus probably one of the most magnificent art nouveau interiors in Europe was destroyed...

The Zalkind shopping mall is this building in the middle.



http://www.infrance.su/forum/showthr...t=18875&page=3

Interior of the Post Office building. Was destroyed, because was "too little modern" and "not suiting soviet human needs".
Not sure how much of art nouveau it was. From these pictures, looks more like classical, maybe. Only staircase on these photos.





http://www.miestai.net/forumas/showthread.php?p=406926

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ypenhof View Post
I've been spending months in Riga and Liepaja too, exploring all kind of Art Nouveau and Art Deco buildings
Yes, Liepaja is interesting, only the buildings there are in a very bad shape, almost ruins... On the other hand, it loses to larger cities of the region with its art nouveau.

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Originally Posted by Ypenhof View Post
You may call the slogans of the Latvian tourist brochures silly and funny, but the very nature of slogans in most tourist brochures, also in Lithuania and my native Netherlands, are usually simplistic and exaggerated...
That's true. Anyway, Riga is overrated.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 10:32 PM   #494
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Thanks for uploading the rare pictures of the original interior of Vilnius General Post Office: when visiting I've always thought how it must have looked like. Indeed a nice classicist style (not art Nouveau...) and it is sad that this interior was completely destroyed during Soviet times. But honestly I find it also sad that the building was even further spoiled in free and independent Lithuania when in the 1990-ties the wooden windows in the main facade were replaced by cheap plastic ones.

My theory why there is relatively little Art Nouveau in Vilnius is not war but this:
As we all know the avantgarde period of Art Nouveau lost momentum around 1906 and from 1907 and later Art Nouveau was increasingly replaced by neo-classicist influence again.
I feel that the Art nouveau architecture reached tsarist time Vilnius rather late, due to the relatively conservative taste by the Vilnius elite at the time. Art Nouveau reached the city around 1905 when the 'pure' Art Nouveau became already out of fashion in Europe. That might explain why there is (still) only a dozen of 'real' Art Nouveau buildings there, the other ones tend to be neoclassical buildings with some art Nouveau features built from ca. 1907 until the First World War. So from a point of view of Art Nouveau development in Vilnius (which was still a big city with 215.000 inhabitants) I feel that the city simply missed the train during the essential years between 1900 and 1906.

Due to the fact that I'm still not skilled in uploading pictures, I cannot show any pictures of Art Nouveau architecture in the Latvian port city of Liepaja (Libau), but I can assure there are a few fine examples, also from wood.
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Old August 27th, 2013, 01:22 AM   #495
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Strange enough, the best examples of art nouveau in Vilnius were created in 1911-1914.

http://www.miestai.net/forumas/showthread.php?t=3858


Vilnius 1900-2012


Vilnius 1900-2012


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=116933




















http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=116933

This building is really... Huge. Its tower and 1/15 of the enormous façade.

http://www.miestai.net/forumas/showthread.php?t=3858

And some more (I agree, many of these are actually eclectic, modernized eclectic, classical with some elements of art nouveau, etc.; also, mostly, dull and not interesting from the architectural point).

By the way, there is a nice art nouveau interior in the Academy of Science of Lithuania. Also, the so called Mažasis Teatras/Minor Theater at Gediminas avenue and its hall. It has unique convex roof, made of green glass tiles in the 1900s. This hall, together with analogue hall in Prague are the sole in the whole of Europe such roofs/halls. There were more, but all where destroyed except Vilnius and Prague ones.

I could upload couple of my own pictures of Liepaja later.
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Old August 27th, 2013, 01:40 AM   #496
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Most of the buildings from that period are such fake art nouveau as this in Vilnius.

Vilnius 1900-2012

The only interesting example. Šiauliai. Chaim Frenkel villa.

www.etvatravel.eu


www.vieglicelot.lv

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/1...0/90512117.jpg
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/90512117
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Old August 27th, 2013, 06:25 PM   #497
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Wow, a wonderful picture of the Frenkel house in Siauliai; amazing that it survived the destruction from both World Wars. Thanks for uploading the pictures again of this late Art nouveau examples. You are mentioning that they are "mostly dull, and not interesting from the architectural point (of view)".
But I think that most of the pictures (except photo 9-10 in Sermuksniu street which is not Art Nouveau) might be still interesting for this Art Nouveau forum visitors in order to demonstrate what Vilnius can offer.

Some of my favorites that haven't been posted are:
-the corner building of J.Tumo-Vaizganto street and J.Savickio str.; the architecture reminds me of a St. Petersburg house: Chaev mension (see wikimedia commons, rentgen street 9 JPG)
-The other corner house J.Tumo-Vaizganto / Lukiskiu street.
-the unusual "Belgian" houses in J. Savickiu street that belonged to the so-called "Montvilas (Montwill) district.
-Apartment building at J.Basanaviciaus street where Lithuanian poet Zemaité used to live.
-Apartment building in restraint Art Nouveau at the beginning of Subaciaus street.
- and the former Merchants Club, Gedimino Avenue/ J. Tumo Vaizganto str., a freshly restored and essentially St. Petersburg classicism building, but still with some Art Nouveau features.

In two weeks I shall visit Vilnius for a short time, and I shall try to take a look into the hall of the Academy of Sciences and the Mazasis Teatras
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Old August 29th, 2013, 02:21 AM   #498
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I like this one from Vilnius on short Domaševičius street.

www.miestai.net/forumas


komfakas.lt

Moderate art nouveau. Of course, nothing extraordinary or interesting, but cosy building.

Modernized neo-Baroque Petras Vileišis manor/castle and its interiors also could interest You.

If interested in true art nouveau, then some small private villas on various streets near Čiurlinis street, interesting quarter at Rasos suburb, villa of Anton Filipovich Dubovik on Pamėnkalnis hill, etc.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 10:37 AM   #499
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steenwijk, the netherlands:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xhai6BgMWZ...0/IMG_1762.JPG



Arnhem, the Netherlands:

http://www.arneym.nl/images/zijpendweg2april2006.jpg



leeuwarden, the Netherlands:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WLJLjaAckM...illwLR7020.jpg



den Haag (the Hague):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3593/3...7ebdd632_z.jpg
image hosted on flickr


Amsterdam:

http://www.amsterdamsebinnenstad.nl/...dijk-37-39.jpg


the Hague:

http://artnouveau.pagesperso-orange....n%20Haag_l.jpg


the Hague:

http://artnouveau.pagesperso-orange....n%20Haag_l.jpg
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Old August 29th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #500
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KonstantinasSirvydas #498 I like this building in Domasevicius street as well, especially the careful manner it has been restored like the colour scheme. It seems that nowadays they are paying more attention to restore or reconstruct the original windows -finally.
The Anton Dubovik mansion is very rustic and eclectic, but I shall take a look how it looks nowadays, as well as the Rasos district you are mentioning.

Okkie #Wonderful pictures of different Dutch Art Nouveau architecture. These examples are more elaborate ones; usually Dutch Art Nouveau is more restraint, and is not always being recognized as Art Nouveau. In your city of Utrecht there used to be another highlight: the main building of Life Insurance Company 'De Utrecht' designed by architect Jan Verheul. Although the architect of the new Hoog Catherijne Center took the preservation of this building into account, it was totally unnecessary demolished in 1974. And in 1975 the 'Year of Art Nouveau' was organised...

By the way, next year there is a good chance that a small exhibition of Dutch Art Nouveau will be organised in the Riga Art Nouveau Museum, with pictures like these ones.
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