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Old September 10th, 2013, 04:29 AM   #21
Yuri S Andrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 009 View Post
I think most people would prefer to stay in their favelas, rather than get shipped off to a dog house in the middle of nowhere
You're basing your opinion on what? Are you familiar with Brazilian public housing programs? No need to answer as I saw your trolling in another thread.

BTW, people are not forced to get a house. Those are social programs available for people who might or not apply into it. As they're for free or heavily subsidized, one can imagine there are people out there interested in get a brand new home.

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Old September 10th, 2013, 05:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post
You're basing your opinion on what? Are you familiar with Brazilian public housing programs? No need to answer as I saw your trolling in another thread.

BTW, people are not forced to get a house. Those are social programs available for people who might or not apply into it. As they're for free or heavily subsidized, one can imagine there are people out there interested in get a brand new home.

No need to get upset, btw you must be a troll comparing Londrina to London and Tokyo lol
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Old September 10th, 2013, 12:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post

And everybody could live happily in a flat in Knightsbridge... Im sorry, but lets go back to the real world, shall we? Thats public housing. The government is giving away all this money. On the top of it, do you think it would be wise to spend millions to buy prime land to build public houses on it? And as if inner city projects proved to be a success...
Even Knightsbridge has social housing. But that's unimportant. You completely missed my point (deliberately?). I wasn't suggesting building social housing in the middle of the city (and thus creating another ghetto), I was suggesting creating mixed-communities - ie every new development should contain some social housing. Building new buildings for the poor is all well and good, but this is clearly just an attempt to ship off the poor outside the city and forget them. A ghetto that will become a slum.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #24
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but this is clearly just an attempt to ship off the poor outside the city and forget them. A ghetto that will become a slum.
It's amazing how people come with such conclusions without having any info on the issue. Do you read Portuguese? Do you know Brazilian social programs? Do you know people involved with them, their ideology? So how come you feel ready to make such scandalous statements?

Brazilians never worried about social cleasing. There's not even a tiny evidence of it, on contrary. Slums always grew without being stopped and there was never a comprehensive attempt to remove them. Social housing exists to face the housing deficit which still exists in Brazil. There's no direct link with slums nor with a urge to remove them.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #25
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In other words there's no appetite to tackle country's problems of inequality. Why ship them off to the outskirts if not to move the problem away? This is exactly how slums are created. Look at Europe - after WWII loads of such areas were created on the outskirts to house the poor and these places soon turned into slums.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 01:24 PM   #26
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?!?!?!? It's universal knowledge no country in the world advanced more than Brazil in terms of inequality reduction in the past decade. And it was not accidental, but due policies specifically designed to tackle this issue.

About the location, you keep refusing to understand. They build homes where there's space (non-built-up land contiguous to the urban area) and where it's cheaper as money doesn't grow in trees. And don't worry: there are social housing built on the top of existent slums, specially in the big cities. There are many examples in Manaus for instance.

P.S. You completely missed the slums problem. Today, when Brazilian population grows less than 1% a year, it's hard to imagine back in the 1960's, the 1970's, ALL Brazilian major urban areas were growing between 60% and 100% per decade (!!!). With such growth pressure, the slum problem was inevitable. As in Brazil, every initiative from the government takes ages, the country still didn't get rid of slums. And again, that never was a priority in any case.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #27
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I guess it's important to define slum here: in Brazil, it means informal settlement. It's people building houses (shacks) without approval, on lands owned by other people or the government. That's why it's not that simple to build public housing on the top of them.

In any case, outside big cities, slums is not that common. In mid-sized cities in Central-South Brazil, they are unheard of. All the urban area is formal, and public housing must be built on non-built up land.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #28
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?!?!?!? It's universal knowledge no country in the world advanced more than Brazil in terms of inequality reduction in the past decade.
Try not to lie so much and people will take you more seriously
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Old September 10th, 2013, 03:02 PM   #29
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Yuri S Andrade, do not feed the troll
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Old September 10th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #30
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According to the GINI index which is the standard international measure of inequality, Brazil had only the 6th biggest improvement in Latin America alone between 2000-2010, and was last among the big 3 LatAm economies, behind Mexico and Argentina.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 03:12 PM   #31
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Lo que hace la envidia en las personas...
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Old September 11th, 2013, 05:55 AM   #32
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Toronto

Regents Park is one of the largest public housing estates in Toronto. It is being demolished and rebuilt as a mixed income neighbourhood. Some units are subsidized (public housing for the poor) and some are at market rate, but they're indistinguishable from one another. The hope is that mixing the poor with the middle class and giving people pride in where they live will prevent it from becoming a poor ghetto.

The first photo shows what it used to look like while the rest show what's replacing it. About half of Regents Park is now complete. They just finished the new grocery store and recreation centre.


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Old September 11th, 2013, 07:10 AM   #33
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Old September 11th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #34
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The idea for this thread are interesting. Too bad it had to become another "Brazil is best in the world!!!"-thread.

I'd like to see more photos and information about projects that are aimed at the poorer parts of society in developing countries on this forum. I find Africa especially interesting on this area. Unfortunately, 99% of projects and photos in the african sub-forum are about high-end/luxury development. They're nice, some of them really nice, but honestly not so interesting. It's much more interesting what's being done to raise the average living standard for the poor in Luanda, Lagos and Accra for example.

---

I concur in the opinion that building whole areas only consisting of public housing are a bad idea. In Sweden we have a (nationally) well-known project called "The million programme" which aimed at building one million housing units during the 60's (sounds similar to the Brazilian goal of 2.5 million). It weren't just for the poor but with time almost all of these areas has become "ghettos". Living in a million programme apartment is synonym to living in the poor parts of town. A good example on how to NOT build a city.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by KeanoManu View Post
The idea for this thread are interesting. Too bad it had to become another "Brazil is best in the world!!!"-thread.

I'd like to see more photos and information about projects that are aimed at the poorer parts of society in developing countries on this forum. I find Africa especially interesting on this area. Unfortunately, 99% of projects and photos in the african sub-forum are about high-end/luxury development. They're nice, some of them really nice, but honestly not so interesting. It's much more interesting what's being done to raise the average living standard for the poor in Luanda, Lagos and Accra for example.

---

I concur in the opinion that building whole areas only consisting of public housing are a bad idea. In Sweden we have a (nationally) well-known project called "The million programme" which aimed at building one million housing units during the 60's (sounds similar to the Brazilian goal of 2.5 million). It weren't just for the poor but with time almost all of these areas has become "ghettos". Living in a million programme apartment is synonym to living in the poor parts of town. A good example on how to NOT build a city.

That's only a few Brazilian internet trolls who have never been outside of Brazil who behave that way. The ones I have met internationally have been much more realistic about their country, were more honest in general, and far less delusional.


About your point regarding public housing in the middle of nowehre, I strongly agree. What a terrible way to live. I even find rich suburbs in the middle of nowhere terribly boring. Now Imagine being trapped in the middle of nowhere in a little dog house, with no car and nowhere to walk around.

Also, segregated neighborhoods for poor people always end up as ghettos, they need to be integrated into society so they have a chance to advance, and a higher quality of life
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Old September 11th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by KeanoManu View Post
The idea for this thread are interesting. Too bad it had to become another "Brazil is best in the world!!!"-thread.
Why did you say that?
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Old September 11th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #37
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That's only a few Brazilian internet trolls who have never been outside of Brazil who behave that way. The ones I have met internationally have been much more realistic about their country, were more honest in general, and far less delusional.
Envy, I just love it
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Old September 11th, 2013, 06:05 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeanoManu View Post

I concur in the opinion that building whole areas only consisting of public housing are a bad idea. In Sweden we have a (nationally) well-known project called "The million programme" which aimed at building one million housing units during the 60's (sounds similar to the Brazilian goal of 2.5 million). It weren't just for the poor but with time almost all of these areas has become "ghettos". Living in a million programme apartment is synonym to living in the poor parts of town. A good example on how to NOT build a city.
There is a worst place than a ghetto....a slum!!!

This is a first-world problem, Brazil isnt first-world country...thousand people have any basic things like clean water, electricity, paved road, a good house etc.

Now...tell us your proposal for where those 1 million people will life?
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27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.


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Old September 11th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post
I guess even in England there are worse housing than that. The thread is focusing on public housing for poor people.
Yes, no doubt. I think the thread title was changed, or maybe I just misread it. I'm pretty sure it originally said 'Housing for the poor', in which case I was a little sceptical that these were the worst/poorest houses in Brazil.

But if it's about new public housing developments then yes, great, I'm sure these will be a big improvement in conditions for many people.

Though the caveat that others have mentioned about the potential for problems in making all housing in a particular district 'low-income' housing is relevant I think.

The Council Housing estates that were built in the UK after WWII were not originally simply for low income households, many middle income people lived there too, but policy changes in the 1970s that gave priority to the people with lowest income and most problems led to decline in many of those areas.

The Brazilian method of making them owner-occupied from the outset rather than owned by the state may mitigate that potential for problems though, let's hope so.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 07:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by xrtn2 View Post
Why did you say that?
Because it's true. If someone says something that's not in Brazils favour on this forum there will quickly be a brigade of posters coming to it's rescue and talk about how wrong that person is and how great Brazil is.

brazilian001 in the post below yours sort of proved that point.

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There is a worst place than a ghetto....a slum!!!

This is a first-world problem, Brazil isnt first-world country...thousand people have any basic things like clean water, electricity, paved road, a good house etc.

Now...tell us your proposal for where those 1 million people will life?
What I, and others, have said about the development in question is that it's not a good idea to build area aimed at only one class/part of society.

I personally think it's good that Brazil builds new homes for poorer people, it shows that they want to do something for that parts of society. If only they would build some middle class houses and some upper class houses with all the services those parts of society want in the same neighbourhood it would be great. Don't keep them seperate, mix them.

So keep building homes for the people who are now living in slums. But spread them out and build them where other parts of society are also present.
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