West London Tram Scheme

[pricemazda]

Trams are best used to link out-lying neighbourhoods with town centres like Richmond, Ilford, Croydon, Lewisham creating a ring of alternative transport that can act as feeders to the tube but also provide alternative public transport for the town centres and for journeys that don't follow the normal suburb to central london to suburb pattern.

A tram is the wrong solution for parts of central london.

[Zim Flyer]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

A tram is the wrong solution for parts of central london.

They worked once and if they had multiple lines and were connected to rail links via out line areas or park and rides in others they could be a success.

If not trams then perhaps trolley buses could be considered, anything which reduces fuel ommissions in our cities can only be good.

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by Zim Flyer

since Sheffield many lessons have been learnt. For example, how many businesses in Nottingham went under whilst the tram system was built. Despite it's problems, there are many people who want Sheffield's system to be extended.

In the construction of the Edinburgh tram system they are doing it in small phases so as to not close down entire streets and keep things fluid.

Like I've said before, it's hard enough to get Light Rail as it is in this country, so let the people of West London have buses and Light Rail can go to the people who will appreciate it, ie the people of South London or Manchester etc.

Yeah they may want to extend the system in Sheffield but no-one is willing to put the cash up because the government certainly won't.
The only issue with trams in Sheffield is the hills the city is built on. the majority of people live in the hilly areas and all the industry and facilities like the town centre, universites and the majority of big companies are in the valleys, to enable the system to grow as in other cities they would need more powerful trams capable of going up some of the inclines that exist in Sheffield, it's a known fact that in bad weather even some buses have difficulties making up the steeper hills. Many extensions have been proposed but none seem to have come to fruition because of the two issues.

[zfreeman]

The idea behind the Cross River Tram is to alleviate overcrowding on the central sections of the Northern and Victoria lines that is why the current terminal is in Brixton and is currently located in area where it could be expanded from, further into south west London, but currently they want to build an initial system.

If it gets given the go ahead then i can see southern extensions to from Brixton to Streatham (thru tulse hill), connecting in with a possible future extension of Croydon Tramlink (after traffic issues have been sorted) and from peckham thru to crystal palace.

Admittedly they would probably take another 20 years. since CRT isn't planned for completion till 2015

[sotonsi]

The tram will be overloaded from day 1, using the predicted traffic and an even load throughout the day (which isn't the case), so extension might be a bit hard, though City Tram will at least provide a higher frequency to Brixton, allowing for that to be extended (and more trams for Peckham corridor, which has less alternatives).

Of course, extending the Bakerloo line and the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line (and splitting the northern in two, allowing a 50% capacity increase, and better reliability) southwards would be far better at doing the job.

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

The tram will be overloaded from day 1, using the predicted traffic and an even load throughout the day (which isn't the case), so extension might be a bit hard, though City Tram will at least provide a higher frequency to Brixton, allowing for that to be extended (and more trams for Peckham corridor, which has less alternatives).

Hence why the want to construct the central sections because the know it will have a huge patronage and with a 2 minute headway i think it'll work. It is hoped that CRT 60-70,000 people in the central area during the peak working period (8am -6pm)

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Of course, extending the Bakerloo line and the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line (and splitting the northern in two, allowing a 50% capacity increase, and better reliability) southwards would be far better at doing the job.

Agreed. But without those plans in the pipeline what else are we gonna look at for space on our cities overcrowded transport system??

[Mauritz]

Regarding Tube extensions in South London, Bakerloo is the most probable in the short term. Perhaps splitting the southern part of the Northern Line to give it a second terminus. Extending the Victoria Line is not going to happen due to crowding issues, perhaps somewhere after Crossrail 2.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by zfreeman

Hence why the want to construct the central sections because the know it will have a huge patronage and with a 2 minute headway i think it'll work. It is hoped that CRT 60-70,000 people in the central area during the peak working period (8am - 6pm)

wow, looks like they have changed their predictions (which were roughly 220k per 18 hour weekday) so that they aren't as stupid as before. Still very likely that peak trams will be crush loaded from day 1, especially am peak northbound over Waterloo Bridge.

Agreed. But without those plans in the pipeline what else are we gonna look at for space on our cities overcrowded transport system??

moving some of those people onto a different overcrowded transport route so that very crowded can become a little bit less crowded for a couple of years, until the number of passengers reach the same levels again?

Double-decker bendy-buses might work :P

[Mattski]

Originally Posted by zfreeman

Yeah they may want to extend the system in Sheffield but no-one is willing to put the cash up because the government certainly won't.
The only issue with trams in Sheffield is the hills the city is built on. the majority of people live in the hilly areas and all the industry and facilities like the town centre, universites and the majority of big companies are in the valleys, to enable the system to grow as in other cities they would need more powerful trams capable of going up some of the inclines that exist in Sheffield, it's a known fact that in bad weather even some buses have difficulties making up the steeper hills. Many extensions have been proposed but none seem to have come to fruition because of the two issues.

The hills are one of the few technical issues that aren't a problem in sheffield! In fact, Sheffield trams are much heavier and more powerful than in other cities to cope with the hills. When the snow comes down, everyone switches to the trams while the buses are stuck in the valleys.

The two main reasons why extensions haven't happended is because of a lack of political will (both central government in terms of funding and local council in not promoting transport effectively) and because people are still worried about parking/business impacts due to the horrible mismanagement of the original network installation.

[GNU]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

A tram is the wrong solution for parts of central london.

Didnt London have trams in the past?
And Ive heard something about closing Oxford street to traffic and to have a tram instead.
Now that would make sense imo.
Right now the street is just blocked all day by all those busses which go through.


Or it would be great if theyd relive the Kingsway tram tunnel:







Why did they close it off in the first place?

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by GNU

Or it would be great if theyd relive the Kingsway tram tunnel:

Why did they close it off in the first place?

Some of the tunnel is still in place you can even see the old hoardings on the walls as well as the names of the stops, but the southern end was cut when they constructed the strand underpass tunnel. TfL have said that if trams are reintroduced to the streets of central London that this route would not be used as it doesn't meet curent safety requirements or be suitable for the tram lengths that we wuould need, anyway in the autumn of 2006, work began to convert part of the abandoned tunnel between the Embankment and the Strand Underpass into a new commercial space. This involved the demolition of the existing pedestrian subways under Waterloo Bridge, and extensive construction in the bridge's undercroft. So it won't be used as a means of transport again.

[GNU]

What a shame really.
They should have kept it.
Anyways, heres a great site btw with pics of that line, the Kingsway tunnel and loads of other stuff:

http://www.derelictlondon.com

[dronkula]

There's also a road tunnel now in the old Kingsway tunnel from Waterloo Bridge to Kingsway anyway.

[Justme]

Those double decker trams were amazing, especially the photos in the underground station! What a loss to London this was. Hong Kong was so smart to keep their double decker trams! But they never had a tunnel like this.