HONOLULU | Public Transport

[hkskyline]

Hannemann returns from mainland with mass transit ideas
29 January 2006

HONOLULU (AP) - Honolulu Mayor Mufi Hannemann said on Sunday he has new ideas on how to finance a mass transit system on Oahu after studying the Las Vegas Monorail.

Hannemann was scheduled to return to Honolulu on Sunday after wrapping up a trip to Vancouver, Washington, D.C., and Las Vegas.

In Las Vegas, he met with officials of Transmax Group who were in charge of the monorail's $650 million financing.

He also met with Bombardier officials, who developed and operate the system.

Transmax officials said the Las Vegas monorail is the only modern, rapid transit system in the United States that was privately financed without government funds.

"The private sector participation in the system is overwhelming," Hannemann said in a news release. "I came away with ideas on how to encourage and entice public-private partnerships to finance Honolulu's mass transit system."

The Las Vegas system received funding from hotels, casinos and other corporate sponsorship. The Nextel-Sprint wireless communications firm sponsors the monorail's station at the Convention Center.

The firm's station has a 15,000-square-foot wireless communications center featuring retail space, concierge service and a high-tech briefing center. The sponsorship generates $2 million a year for the monorail system, according to the news release.

The system serves as many as 50,000 passengers a day. Residents pay one dollar per ride and visitors pay five dollars.

Hannemann began his trip on Monday in Vancouver, where he inspected that city's Skytrain. In Washington, D.C., he discussed mass transit with a number of senators.

He spoke with Patty Murray, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Transportation, Treasury and Housing and Urban Development appropriations subcommittee, which will be key to Honolulu obtaining federal funding for a mass transit system.

[micro]

Excellent idea to do something against the traffic jams!

[hkskyline]

Bidders vie to build Honolulu mass transit system
30 January 2008

HONOLULU (AP) - Eleven companies from around the world are vying to build Oahu's $5 billion mass transit system, according to a list released by the city.

Companies from the U.S., Canada, Japan and Europe have proposed to build one of four types of transit systems being considered to alleviate the traffic mess on Oahu's roadways used by about 1 million residents, military and tourists.

A panel of five experts, who plan to hold closed-door meetings, will select the type of system to carry residents from Kapolei to Ala Moana first, and later link with the Waikiki tourist district and the University of Hawaii at Manoa.

The proposed systems include light rail, rubber-tires on concrete, magnetic levitation and a monorail.

Panos Prevedouros, a panelist and University of Hawaii engineering professor, said the city had limited other companies from making proposals because of the way it had written the request for information.

"What is disturbing is there are very few really advanced bus systems being offered," he said. "The city submitted a list of specifications and they were quite limited in their scope."

In December, the city solicited companies to submit information, such as vehicle dimensions, speed, passenger capacity and typical costs, for the panel to evaluate.

The company will be selected later when the city solicits bids.

"It's too premature to say whether these technologies are suitable for Honolulu," Prevedouros said. "I am concerned that we aren't going to have enough time to come up with a single recommendation."

Proposals were submitted by Advanced Public Transport Systems, ALSTOM Transport, AnsaldoBreda, Bombadier Transportation, Siemens Transportation (two proposals), Mitsubishi-Sumitomo, Mitsubishi-Itochu, Hitachi America, Translohr, IHI Corp. and Thales.

"Practically speaking, these are the companies that make all the transit vehicles in the world," city Transportation Director Wayne Yoshioka said.

Mayor Mufi Hannemann said he was very pleased with the response.

"The interest being expressed by a wide variety of vehicle manufacturers ensures that this will result in a rigorous, competitive procurement process in the future," he said in a statement. "I'm confident that Honolulu is going to get the technology that best meets our needs at an extremely competitive price."

Hannemann hopes to break ground for the project by 2009.

The city recently released the companies who submitted information a week after two state lawmakers threatened to stop funding the project unless the city settled on a technology by June 30.

Several council members, including Donovan Dela Cruz and Ann Kobayashi, said they were happy the process was moving forward but were concerned with the lack of transparency.

"They are just going to come here from the mainland and tell us how to spend $5 billion then go back," Kobayashi said about the private panel. "There is no accountability or openness."

[greg_christine]

There is a good article describing the transit vehicle options at the following link:

http://starbulletin.com/2008/01/30/news/story04.html

The transit vehicle options are illustrated in the PDF file at the following link:

http://www.honolulutransit.org/pdfs/...r_pictures.pdf

The options are as follows:

==========================================================
Advanced Public Transport Systems
Rubber-tire vehicles that run on concrete
» Its Phileas concept involves hybrid systems that run on rubber
tires with magnetic markers on the road.
» Their projects include systems in Eindhoven in the Netherlands,
Douai in Northern France and South Korea.

==========================================================
Alstom Transport
Steel-wheel-on-steel-rail vehicles
» Ranks second worldwide in the urban transport market, according to
its Web site, with services in more than 60 countries.
» Recently awarded a contract to supply 126 metro cars for the
Nanjing Metro Line 1 in China.

==========================================================
Ansaldobreda
Steel-wheel-on-steel-rail vehicles
» Has fleets operating in Washington, D.C., Atlanta, Boston,
Cleveland, Los Angeles and San Francisco.

==========================================================
Bombardier
Steel-wheel-on-steel-rail vehicles
» Canadian manufacturer that built the subway cars in New York.
» Awarded a contract in 2003 to renew and modernize two-thirds of the
London Underground System.

==========================================================
Siemens Transportation
Rubber-tire vehicles on concrete
» Contracted in 2006 to build a system in Uijeongbu, north of Seoul,
that includes 15 two-car rubber-tired vehicles. The elevated system
spans 10.6 kilometers.

» Siemens also proposes a steel-wheel-on-steel-rail system. It built
an elevated "skytrain" in Bangkok and the Light Rail System in
Houston. It recently got a contract to expand projects in Guangzhou
and Shanghai, China.

==========================================================
Mitsubishi-Itochu
Magnetic levitation vehicles
» According to Wayne Yoshioka, Honolulu's transportation director,
the only urban magnetic-levitation system in the world is in Nagoya,
Japan, called the Limino.

==========================================================
Mitsubishi-Sumitomo
Steel-wheel-on-steel-rail vehicles
» This consortium of Mitsubishi Corp. was awarded a contract in 2005
to build a 70-kilometer long rail in Dubai on the Persian Gulf,
according to the International Herald Tribune.

==========================================================
Hitachi America
Monorail vehicles
» The Hitachi Monorail System has operations in Tokyo, Osaka, Tama
and Okinawa.

==========================================================
Translohr
Rubber-tire vehicles that run on concrete
» A rubber-tire light-rail transit that uses a single rail in the
center of the track as its guiding system.

==========================================================
IHI Corp.
Rubber-tire vehicles that run on concrete
» A Japan-based company that has manufactured light rail vehicles.

==========================================================

All of the above images are from the PDF file at the link above with the exception of the IHI system, which is from the IHI website.

For more information, see the website of the Honolulu high-capacity transit corridor project:

http://www.honolulutransit.org/

[sequoias]

That's a pretty tough decision what transit mode they would build in Honolulu area. I think it should be light rail subway system similar to Vancouver's sky train but not with magnetic stuff on the middle of the rails (costs more).

[jchernin]

all of them

[jam5]

Does Hawaii have an extensive ferry system, not dissimilar to that operated by Washington State in Puget Sound? This is a state that is essentially an archipelago of islands, after all...

[Encinal]

I think a system similar to Vancouver's would be a good fit for Honolulu. No drivers means trains can be run more often without costing a huge amount of money.

Originally Posted by jam5

Does Hawaii have an extensive ferry system, not dissimilar to that operated by Washington State in Puget Sound? This is a state that is essentially an archipelago of islands, after all...

You'd think... A ferry service just started (like a month or two ago). It was supposed to go between O'ahu, Maui, and Kauai; but has been REALLY controversial for reasons that never seem to be talked about in the newspapers. Right now it just goes between Honolulu and Maui.

[Tri-ring]

I would suggest the maglev system for it's attraction ride elements since Honolulu's main source of income is tourism.
Tourists will probably find it amusing to ride a vehicle that glides through thin air at least once during their vist.

[icracked]

As a city so far we are leaning towards Maglev because of the low emission and its quiet, great for our heavily urbanized city.

Here's our ferry service, the Hawaii Superferry.

image hosted on flickr


the inside.

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

[Quente]

Originally Posted by greg_christine

There is a good article describing the transit vehicle options at the following link:

http://starbulletin.com/2008/01/30/news/story04.html

The transit vehicle options are illustrated in the PDF file at the following link:

http://www.honolulutransit.org/pdfs/...r_pictures.pdf

The options are as follows:


All of the above images are from the PDF file at the link above with the exception of the IHI system, which is from the IHI website.

For more information, see the website of the Honolulu high-capacity transit corridor project:

http://www.honolulutransit.org/

Excellent find! Thanks for taking the time to post this.

It's such a good resource that you might want to consider making it an individual thread so it can be easily accessed.

Thanks again.

[deasine]

I think Vancouver SkyTrain is really expensive... Honolulu should have something similar to it: conventional train technology that is automated. Example, Vancouver's Canada Line, opening in 2009.

Rotem/SNC-Lavin:

From the Canada Line Docs:



Credits to Bill Wong:

[spongeg]

Originally Posted by icracked

As a city so far we are leaning towards Maglev because of the low emission and its quiet, great for our heavily urbanized city.

Here's our ferry service, the Hawaii Superferry.

image hosted on flickr


the inside.

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

there was a special about this thing on discovery or NG the other week - it was pretty interesting

something about sealife getting caught up in it was a problem they faced when designing it

[hkskyline]

Rail system expected to create thousands of new jobs
17 February 2008

HONOLULU (AP) - Analysts say construction on Oahu's $3.7 billion commuter rail project could generate up to 9,100 jobs and result in an influx of workers from the Mainland.

They say between a third and half of the jobs would be in the construction industry.

The analysts from New York-based Parsons Brinckerhoff have a contract with the city to plan the transit system.

They say Mainland workers would be needed for the project because of Hawaii's low unemployment rate, the scale of the construction and the specialty skills it requires.

But the analysts note that the project also has some potential drawbacks. Its demand for building materials and workers, for example, could increase residential and commercial construction costs.

[greg_christine]

http://starbulletin.com/2008/02/23/news/story01.html

Panel picks steel transit system
A panel's pick, while expected, will face scrutiny as it moves into the political arena

STORY SUMMARY

The best mass transit option for Honolulu is a train system that uses steel wheels on steel rails, a city panel of transportation experts decided yesterday.

In a 4-1 vote, the panel chose that option for the $3.8 billion project, rejecting monorail, magnetic levitation and rubber tires on concrete.

The recommendation now goes to the City Council where the immediate reception was mixed. Some councilmembers said steel on steel makes the most economic sense, while others complained that the panel's selection was predetermined, rubber-stamping Mayor Mufi Hannemann's preferred choice.

Hannemann has said he wants to break ground in 2009 on a 20-mile mass transit system from West Oahu to Ala Moana Center.

The lone dissenter in yesterday's panel vote was University of Hawaii-Manoa engineering professor Panos Prevedouros, who argued that a rail system will have little impact on traffic congestion.

Panel Chairman Ron Tober said a steel-on-steel system will save the city money in the long run.

"We're not going to eliminate traffic congestion by any of these alternatives," he said. "We can do some things to reduce the growth in future traffic congestion or allow it to continue to grow at the rate that it has in the past."

WHAT'S NEXT

» The City Council will discuss selecting the fixed-rail technology at its Transportation Committee meeting Thursday morning.

» The city administration is preparing its draft environmental impact statement, hoping to include the technology pending the City Council decision, for federal review in June. The report is scheduled for public release in September.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Laurie Au

A panel of experts selected rail as the technology for the city's $3.8 billion fixed-guideway system yesterday, saying it is the most reliable and would be the least expensive long-term option for the city.

Four of the five panel members agreed steel wheel on steel rail was the best choice because it is the most commonly used mass transit system -- giving the city a competitive advantage when seeking bids -- has lower operating costs and can be more easily expanded in the future.

"If we were to select something that is widely available, it's not only competitive initially, it's competitive in the long term," said Henry Kolesar, a panelist and the group manager with the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District. "Honolulu, I'm sure, will be expanding their system, and sticking with the low-risk, proven technology is in the best interest of Honolulu."

In the largest public works project in the state's history, the city would build a 20-mile elevated system from Kapolei to Ala Moana starting in late 2009 with plans to later extend it to the airport and University of Hawaii at Manoa.

Mayor Mufi Hannemann had long favored rail, but he proposed a panel of experts to consider four options -- rail, a rubber-tire bus system, monorail or magnetic levitation. The City Council, which has the final say on funding, will take up the technology selection with its own bill.

For the past week, panel members toured the island and evaluated information submitted to the city from 10 companies. In a meeting lasting about two hours yesterday at Mission Memorial Auditorium with brief comments by a handful of Oahu residents, panel members voted 4-1 to recommend rail.

Of the four technologies, the city received the most number of responses -- five companies, most of which are the largest providers in the world -- on rail. The panel did not select a company, which is done in a later procurement process. It is likely these companies would submit proposals.

Panel members rejected a monorail or magnetic levitation system, saying those technologies are not as common and have not been proved to work in other urban areas.

The other option, a rubber-tired bus on concrete, would not be appropriate for Honolulu because it has lower capacity and cannot be expanded as easily, several panel members said.

The lone dissenter, University of Hawaii-Manoa engineering professor Panos Prevedouros, proposed a bus system on managed lanes, meaning the elevated system would have its own lanes and connect to current roads. However, this was not a part of the city's four technology options and was ruled out.

Prevedouros favored his second choice, the rubber-tired bus system, because it would cut down on electricity use and be quieter than rail. This was also rejected by the other panel members.

Ron Tober, the panel's chairman and former leader of several U.S. rail transit operating systems, said initial costs to build rail are higher, but its operational costs are lower.

"I do believe steel wheel on steel rail will save you all money in the long run," said Tober, who added that the companies did not provide sufficient cost estimates for Honolulu's system.

Toru Hamayasu, the city's chief transportation planner, said rail as the chosen technology will not increase the city's costs for the project. Of the estimated $3.4 billion to $3.8 billion cost, about $200 million is budgeted for the technology. After inflation and interest, the total cost comes closer to $5 billion.

Prevedouros, long opposed to the city's preferred fixed-guideway system, questioned the need to spend billions of public money on a system he says will have low ridership and little impact on traffic congestion, which was stated in an earlier study by city consultants.

"We're not going to eliminate traffic congestion by any of these alternatives, including the managed-lanes alternative," Tober acknowledged. "We can do some things to reduce the growth in future traffic congestion or allow it to continue to grow at the rate that it has in the past."

Haunted by a decision by the 1992 City Council to block a mass transit system after federal funds were secured, several city and federal government leaders were pleased the panel moved the project forward.

"The principal thing for me is that the city needs to be committed to the full transit system," U.S. Rep. Neil Abercrombie, who has helped secure federal funds, said Thursday. "Whatever happens (with technology selection), I'm going to help make the project happen. ... Let's get going."

The earliest the City Council could approve its technology selection bill is mid-April. It would then go to Hannemann to sign into an ordinance.

"I think it's important for the public's confidence as well that their elected officials take this up and have the public hearings to make that decision," said City Councilman Todd Apo yesterday.

"That's their call," Hannemann said Thursday. "I just want them to make sure it's a timely decision so that we can factor it into our (environmental impact statement) ... and to keep us in line for competitive federal funds."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

STEEL RAIL COMPANIES

Five groups submitted information to the city about the steel wheel/steel rail technology. The city's Fixed Guideway Technology Selection Panel used the information yesterday to pick the technology for Oahu's mass transit system. They are:


ALSTOM Transport: Ranks second worldwide in the urban transport market, according to its Web site, with services in more than 60 countries.


AnsaldoBreda Transportation Inc.: Created by the merger of two Italian companies, it has fleets operating in Atlanta, Boston, Cleveland, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Washington, D.C.


Bombardier Transportation: Canadian manufacturer that built New York's subway cars. It also built or supplies systems in England, Turkey and Portugal.


Mitsubishi-Sumitomo: A consortium of two companies, it provided part of Manila's rail system. Separately, both firms have extensive rail experience.


Siemens Transportation Systems Inc.: Built or supplied transit systems in San Diego, Boston, Houston, Denver, Bangkok and Singapore, among others.

[Jai]

In the largest public works project in the state's history, the city would build a 20-mile elevated system from Kapolei to Ala Moana starting in late 2009 with plans to later extend it to the airport and University of Hawaii at Manoa.

Wow, 2009? I heard 2012 at the earliest

Can't wait.. will save me a huge headache every day

[greg_christine]

Originally Posted by Jai

Wow, 2009? I heard 2012 at the earliest

Can't wait.. will save me a huge headache every day

2009 is probably the date for the start of construction. 2012 might be the earliest that actual transit service could begin.

[sequoias]

It's all elevated for 20 miles? I thought it might be a subway in some spots, I guess not. Isn't there some dense areas that a elevated guideway can't go thru?

[greg_christine]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...62/1001/NEWS01

Posted on: Tuesday, March 11, 2008
Steel rail transit costs less, but it's noisier

By Sean Hao
Advertiser Staff Writer

Honolulu is on track to pick the oldest, noisiest technology for a planned $3.7 billion commuter rail line connecting East Kapolei to Ala Moana Center.

Steel wheels on steel rails represents the most reliable and cost-effective means of moving masses of people in and out of urban Honolulu, but it is also the loudest, according to a city-appointed panel of experts.

Steel-on-steel technology could be a problem for some residents near the elevated tracks, where trains will pass at up to 55 mph about 400 times a day from 4 a.m. to midnight.

The biggest noise impact would be along Salt Lake Boulevard, though neighbors along Farrington and Kamehameha highways and Dillingham Boulevard also could be affected, according to a city consultant.

Much of the area near the tracks is relatively noisy, which should mitigate train noise, said Mayor Mufi Hannemann. In addition, new technologies make steel-wheeled trains quieter than in the past.

"The feeling is that by the time we start building, there will be an improved technology to mitigate that, but there's no question (noise issues) are going to exist," Hannemann said. "It comes down to choices. Do you want to go forward with this or do you want to just deal with the impacts of what we've been experiencing so far."

The increased noise pollution could also hurt the value of properties near the commuter rail line, but that could be offset by the added value of easy access to mass transit.

"There's both positive and negative (effects) ranging from noise intrusion into existing residential areas to convenience and retail opportunities at transit stops," said James Hallstrom, president of Honolulu appraisal firm The Hallstrom Group Inc.

Hannemann hopes to break ground on the project next year, with the first segment starting service between East Kapolei and Leeward Community College in 2012. The city's plan calls for adding service to Ala Moana Center by 2017.

TRAFFIC ALTERNATIVE

The transit system is expected to give commuters an alternative to increasingly congested highways and reduce urban sprawl. The project won't prevent traffic along the busy H-1 commuter corridor from worsening.

An expert panel decided last month to recommend steel wheels on steel track instead of quieter technologies such as monorail and magnetic levitation. They concluded steel was the best option based on reliability, safety, ride quality and cost.

How noise from the trains will affect neighbors along their 20-mile route will depend on a variety of factors, including existing noise levels, proximity of homes to the track and the type of train used.

The train is expected to generate no more than 75 decibels of noise at a distance of 50 feet, according to the city. In Salt Lake, the elevated train's route is expected to pass no closer than 100 feet from homes, though the distance could be closer in other communities. The city did not specify what the noise level will be at 100 feet.

Generally, 75 decibels equates to the noise made by a vacuum cleaner at 5 feet, or a jet flying 5,000 feet overhead, said Todd Beiler, an acoustical consultant at D.L. Adams Associates Inc. in Kailua. Under Federal Highway Administration rules, traffic noise next to homes should not exceed 67 decibels, he said. A city bus when accelerating generates 83 decibels within 50 feet, the city says.

Existing noise levels, primarily from street traffic, along Salt Lake Boulevard range from 59 to 69 decibels, according to New York-based project consultant Parsons Brinckerhoff.

That relatively high level of existing noise could mask train noise, Beiler said.

"If the existing ambient noise level is already at that noise level or maybe slightly above that when the rail goes by, you're not really going to hear it so much because the ambient noise masks the rail noise," he said. "If the train is going to emit the same noise through a quiet neighborhood, then there will be a bigger impact."

The steel-rail train would cause "severe" noise at 55 locations, all in Salt Lake, and "moderate" noise at 397 other locations in Salt Lake and along Farrington and Kamehameha highways, according to a May 2007 report prepared by Parsons Brinckerhoff.

ANNOYANCE FACTOR

The introduction of new noise into a community is considered severe if a significant percentage of people would be highly annoyed, according to the Federal Transit Administration, which oversees such projects. A moderate noise impact would be noticeable to most people, but may not cause strong, adverse community reaction, according to the agency.

Monorail technology would generate no "severe" noise along the proposed route and "moderate" noise at 282 locations, primarily in Salt Lake, according to the Parsons Brinckerhoff report. Magnetically levitated vehicles, which float above their track, would have no noise impact, the report said. The report did not cover the potential noise impact of rubber-tired bus technology.

The city-appointed panel that recommended steel was made up of five transit system experts who spent a week weighing proposals from 10 different vendors representing steel on steel, rubber tires on concrete, magnetic levitation and monorail technology. Four of the panelists rated steel technology the noisiest, though still within acceptable levels. One panel member rated rubber tire technology the noisiest.

Both magnetic levitation and monorail technologies were ruled out because of cost, capacity and technology concerns.

Apart from the type of technology used, other ways to ease train noise include: lubricating rails, using vibration absorbers and properly maintaining tracks and wheels to reduce squealing, according to the Federal Transit Administration.

Noise impacts could also be limited by building a 3- to 5-foot wall along the sides of the nearly 30-foot-high track, according to Parsons Brinckerhoff.

The city-appointed panelists said their recommendation was based on limited information about the costs of the different technologies. They went with steel in part because there are at least five potential vehicle vendors for steel, which are more vendors than any of the other alternatives, and will make the bidding more competitive.

The city's Committee on Transportation and Public Works voted 4-1 on Feb. 28 to accept the recommendation of the expert panel in favor of steel wheels.

The City Council is expected to vote on the issue three more times before its decision is final.

The lack of detailed cost information raised concern among some council members.

"By their own admission (panelists) did not get any information on costs from most of the respondents to the (request for information)," said council Chairwoman Barbara Marshall, during a recent hearing. "I think that's critical.

"The whole idea here was that we were supposed to select a system based on cost efficiency."

Council member Romy Cachola, who represents the Salt Lake/airport area, agreed the council needs more information about costs and noise of various technologies.

"Listening to the people in my district, that's what they want to know," he said. "How much does this technology cost compared to the others? I cannot answer because there's no detail as to that."

AIRPORT ROUTE

Another alternative to ease the noise impact would be to skip Salt Lake in favor of a route that runs by Honolulu International Airport along the H-1 viaduct. That route would generate no noise impact, according to Parsons Brinckerhoff. Hannemann prefers the airport route.

The Salt Lake route was selected over the airport route because Cachola threatened to vote against the project unless it was routed through Salt Lake.

Hannemann said, "I used to live in Salt Lake (so) I know how narrow that boulevard is. I think once (Salt Lake residents) see it, touch it, (and) see it coming, they may give Romy some push back."

Reach Sean Hao at shao@honoluluadvertiser.com.

========================================================


The Bombardier train is an example of the type of steel-on-steel technology proposed for the Honolulu rail system. While the loudest of the systems, it is also the most reliable and cost-effective.

Bombardier Transportation

========================================================
SOURCES OF STEEL TRAIN NOISE

Wheel/guideway interaction

Propulsion system

Brakes

Auxiliary equipment

Wheel squeal

Cooling fans

In general, noise increases with speed and train length
Source: Federal Transit Administration

========================================================
WHAT'S NEXT

The next City Council meeting where transit technology may be discussed is at 10 a.m. March 19 at Honolulu Hale.

The city is also hosting transit system briefings in various neighborhoods:

Thursday from 6:30-8:30 p.m. at Alvah Scott Elementary School cafeteria, 98-1230 Moanalua Road.

March 17 from 6:30-8:30 p.m. at the Waipahu Elementary cafeteria, 94-1211 Farrington Highway.

March 18 from 6:30-8:30 p.m. at Farrington High School library, 1564 North King St.

========================================================

[adrimm]

If they go with skytrain type vehicles, it would be great to see it partly below grade with a screened top in traditional residential areas.

Skytrain is fast, reasonably quiet, great for alot of areas, even high-rise, but the infrastructure is very invasive in existing traditional neighbourhoods - You've either got these massive pillars where it is elevated, or if it is at grade, massive fences becuase the tracks are dangerous.... takes all the gloss out of the system real fast.