Bangalore International Airport thread

[bialterminal]

Here are the number of takeoffs in a day which I derived from flight stats

BLR LGW

00:00 - 03:00 10 1
03:00 - 06:00 9 7
06:00 - 09:00 33 84
09:00 - 12:00 32 82
12:00 - 15:00 16 75
15:00 - 18:00 30 67
18:00 - 21:00 34 51
21:00 - 00:00 14 11

total 178 378

This (LGW) is what a single runway airport has achieved when run efficiently. Can we come close?

Folks, for some reason the column formatting is getting lost when I save the post. The 1st column after the time-slots is BLR and the 2nd one is LGW.

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by bialterminal
If I understand correctly you are the CEO of a company which means that you know more than anybody else what real competition means. It is mockery to talk of competition between a private entity on one hand and a state run entity on the other. But truly speaking ultimately we will be shooting ourselves in the foot with neither airport being efficient nor profitable. When I had proposed remote checkin terminals in the city you yourself had cited congestion. Now you are saying that congestion will be reduced by opening up an airport that is in the city limits. Now, I really don't get it!!! :-).

I don't think I have confused you ;-with somebody else :-) you had claimed that you are the CEO of Infomart :-). I remember this because in one of the posts somebody had questioned if you stood to gain anything from keeping the HAL airport open and something had come up during which you stated that you are the CEO of Infomart. http://www.infomart.info/overview/management.html
By this I am not implying anything, all I am saying it that I have not confused you with somebody else when I was stating that you are the CEO of a company who must know what real competition is.

[mailabode]

Originally Posted by raghussc

Good point mailabode. Govt knew when it signed the CA that it alone cannot invest so many crores to build a greenfield airport, hence the PPP model was chosen and govt was too liberal to grant monopoly to BIAL. B'lore intelligentia is thinking too much into future growth and demand while BIAL is churning out good numbers already. Politicians aside, there are definitely very smart and intelligent IAS officers like Ahluwalia etc., running the govt. And if the folks at MoCA, GoK n AAI have signed such (as felt now) stupid CA, a retrospection will tell you under what circumstances they did it.

Anyways, B'loreans woke up late and so did GoI which revised the policy just as BIAL was opened. Why not wait for a year to know the exact figures of pax traffic.

At this time, more than the passenger terminal and facilities, BIAL should focus on getting that cargo complex finished which is the actual one that gives local economy a boost. Higher no. of passengers alone will not generate economical growth of b'lore. Cargo is important too. Let BIAL prioritize things and put pressure on BIAL to come up clean in the PR and keep people informed.

Which Ahluwalia ? - pls give more details about name and designation. Montek Singh Ahluwalia?. Thanks.

[mailabode]

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

First, even with HAL, not all Bangaloreans had an easy ride to the airport. Second, the GoK should have provided more connections. But, the question remains: where were the concerned citizens during all this while? Why did you not pressurize the govt. to expedite road connectivity? You are only bothered about short haul passengers for the short term. If people were really bothered about Bangalore having a world class airport, they would, instead of singing the "keep HAL open" song, be doing something constructive in rectifying the mistakes of BIAL (NOT by keeping HAL open).

Mr Dakshhina Praja, Dont you see he is repeating the same simplistic statement all over again to which explanations have been given(to him) many times before and he causes others pain by not explainaing anything but making you do all the hard work?. After everything (going back and forth many times)when you and he have forgotten this issue - he will repeat the same old simplistic statement again.

Sometimes you would have answered his question in a post, but he ignores the answer part but quotes some other obscure part of the post and puts to you a question that you have just answered. Thats just one of his methods of causing pain for no good reason. I am aware of how he works and and i thought i'll tell you.

[Into_salem]

CHENNAI: With travellers hesitating to fly to the new Bangalore airport because it is a two-hour drive from the city’s centre, airlines have started to combine some of their services on the Chennai-Bangalore route.

Airlines that are already reeling under the impact of high cost of jet fuel are struggling to cope with low load factor on the once lucrative sector. Deccan, Kingfisher, Paramount Airways and Jet Airways are struggling to get seats filled in the sector. Since not many bookings are being made flights scheduled during non-peak hours, airlines have started to combine flights scheduled at short intervals to minimise losses.

Airport sources said that there was a startling 60 percent dip in passenger bookings per flight after the new airport was opened at Bangalore. Only the first flight of the day, like the 6.20 a.m service operated by Deccan gets fully-booked. Other services scheduled later in the day suffer from low load factor.

“The airlines are not getting as many bookings as they used to get when the old airport was functioning at Bangalore. The load factor has started to dip even in the morning, the peak hour,” said a senior official of Airports Authority of India (AAI).

Indian has stopped its services to Bangalore while other airlines are thinking of re-scheduling their frequencies to prevent aircraft flying empty. However, airlines are yet to make a formal announcement and are managing the show by clubbing some of the services when loads go abysmally low, as in the last couple of weeks. Kingfisher Airlines, which has recently increased services to Bangalore, is monitoring the situation before deciding whethere they will have to go for a re-scheduling.

Airport Director Dinesh Kumar said “We are yet to get requests for re-scheduling of services in Chennai-Bangalore sector.”

A senior official of a private airline confirmed that there was a dip in passengers which together with high fuel costs had increased the cost of operations tremendously.

“The number of passengers flying is decreasing drastically. This is largely because of the distance from Devanahalli to Bangalore city and also because of the high fare fixed by the airlines,” said Travel Agents Federation of India secretary Talha Rahman. Hence, travellers who once used to fly have started to drive down. Only those whose tickets are booked by the office continue to fly. J Sethuraman, who flies everytime he travels to Bangalore decided to drive down this time. “I had booked a 5 p.m flight to Bangalore from Chennai yesterday. But, my clients in Bangalore warned me not to fly. They told me to take the car, as driving down will be more cheaper and faster. So, I started at 3 p.m in my car and reached Bangalore at 8.30 p.m.”

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/C...ow/3139464.cms

Seems to be a real serious concern !

[Prakash KR]

Originally Posted by bialterminal

Bangalore simply does not have the traffic for the next few years to sustain 2 airports profitably.

Is it so?
Then why we are seeing photos of new BIAL terminal choked from day 1?
We thought BIAL will be a big improvement over HAL in terms of passenger terminal facilities.

Originally Posted by bialterminal

We need the Devanahalli airport to reach a sustainable level of 35 to 40 million passengers with revamped, modern air traffic rules & systems AND a massive efficient terminal before we think of adding a 3rd runway or allowing traffic to spill over to another airport.

3rd runway???? Are you mad?
BIAL doesnot even have plans for 2nd runway in near future and you are talking about 3rd runway

35-40 million passengers is scaring to me. BIAL is struggling to handle even current passenger traffic at 10 million with no concrete plans for immediate expansion. And you are talking about BIAL going to handle 35-30 million pax. May be the planes have to land on rice fields or NH 7 and pick up passengers from the roads near BIAL

Originally Posted by bialterminal

In the current situation we have shifted limited traffic (by international standards) from a sick public sector unit to a fresh one with scope for growth and improvement.

Wrong.
HAL never was a sick public sector ; it was making profits. Check your source of information.

Originally Posted by bialterminal

Having 2 commercial airports operating is an entirely different ballgame. Has anybody factored in the complexity of approach paths/patterns and departure paths/patterns followed by noise abatement procedures which in turn have an affect on the traffic patterns?

Please go check how Houston airport system works managing three airports in that city; Dallas with two airports in that city and so forth.

Moreover in India, second airports are going to come up in Noida( delhi), Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkata.

Originally Posted by bialterminal

If HAL airport was good we didn't need the new airport in the first place.

Yes, HAL airport was damn good designed for 3 million pax. The only problem was that AAI never bothered to expand the HAL terminal and hence was forced to handle beyond its capacity. HAL airport is a very good airport for handling 3 million passenger traffic.

Originally Posted by bialterminal

If somebody(govt.) has signed the contract blindly and taken kickbacks given the legacy of corrupt govt. then the culprits involved need to be brought to book.

You have come to the point. As a retired justice of Bangalore High court said aptly, we have to find that scoundrel who gave away BIAL all of Bangalore at a throwaway price especially the golden price that no new airport within 150km radius.

[Prakash KR]

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

First, even with HAL, not all Bangaloreans had an easy ride to the airport.

Okay, for those people who didnot have easy ride to airport, they have BIAL now.

What about those other people who found HAL convenient? Do they have the same privilege now as they used to get before ?

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

Second, the GoK should have provided more connections. But, the question remains: where were the concerned citizens during all this while? Why did you not pressurize the govt. to expedite road connectivity?

Many people and prominent citizens of Bangalore have pressurised BIAL and Government to speed up road and rail connectivity to BIAL. Remember , Infosys Chairman Narayanamurthy was even thrown out of the BIAL director board for having told them to speed up road connectivity. So, please donot tell now there was no pressure to improve road connectivitty past years.

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

You are only bothered about short haul passengers for the short term. If people were really bothered about Bangalore having a world class airport, they would, instead of singing the "keep HAL open" song, be doing something constructive in rectifying the mistakes of BIAL (NOT by keeping HAL open).

Short haul passengers make up more than 30% of the total traffic and needs immediate attention. Otherwise, you will see drastic reduction in short haul traffic and consequent reduction in short haul flights in near future.

Do you have any other worthy option to bring back the short haul passengers other than opening HAL airport? Let us know.

[Prakash KR]

Originally Posted by barrykul

GoI can do whatever it pleases no matter who whines, even the courts be damned. All that the courts can do is side with regional whiners but they don't have executive power, that is reserved for the GoI.

Courts have the power to cancel clauses in contracts that are against public interest.

[mailabode]

Originally Posted by bialterminal

Here are the number of takeoffs in a day which I derived from flight stats

BLR LGW

00:00 - 03:00 10 1
03:00 - 06:00 9 7
06:00 - 09:00 33 84
09:00 - 12:00 32 82
12:00 - 15:00 16 75
15:00 - 18:00 30 67
18:00 - 21:00 34 51
21:00 - 00:00 14 11

total 178 378

This (LGW) is what a single runway airport has achieved when run efficiently. Can we come close?

Folks, for some reason the column formatting is getting lost when I save the post. The 1st column after the time-slots is BLR and the 2nd one is LGW.

I'll tell you what you'll hear , in advance:-
"You cant compare Bangalore and Gatwick. The DGCA has different rules from the the civil avaiation authority in the UK. DGCA air separation rules are different from British CAA rules. They allow 700 plus ATMs per day/runway whereas for India its about 500 maximum. For BIA the maximum by my calculation is 550 and thats what the IATA has recommended to BIAL.
Further you cant compare LGW and BLR because LGW has >80% international flights and international flights are widebodied, whereas BLR has >80% domestic and so smaller aircraft.
BIA has only 40 percent airspace etc etc."
and i had already replied to all of those points.

Let me tell you what i already know:
LGW international flights except for few every day are 'international flights with flight durations 1-2 hours on average and flying to European destinations and destinations like Morocoo etc and usually use smaller aircraft'. There are usually only 1 or 2 (max < 10) long haul flights per day, for eg to destinations like Dubai.

While on one hand the gentleman adops futuristic standards and a superlative degree of optimism like wanting an underground train from Vidhana soudha to BIA(in spite of somebody saying India is not ready for such underground trains due to inept practices to handle flooding etc) - but he is highly pessimistic the DGCA will reform and change the rules even a bit to be in tune with current & future needs.

I felt there was no case at all there(this is not about your statement)- but this and similar arguments still float around because ordinary people cant go on doing this professionally and providing proof all the time and ordinary people are not working for a team and they dont have a single focus as the members of a team.

Hopefully we can hear something new this time.

[Devesh]

A major hypothetical to consider ..............

What if BIAL does not have any more money to invest in expansion ?

BIAL is a company funded by its promoters mainly Siemens. If Siemens cuts off the tap, then what are the options for Bangalore as city ?

[mailabode]

Originally Posted by Prakash KR

Courts have the power to cancel clauses in contracts that are against public interest.

I wish we remove the word 'socialist' from our constitution and go back to our(India's) original founding principles as laid out by venerable Shri Ambedhkar and the other founding fathers. What say Prakash Ji?. you will head the movement?. And if you can rope in Basu, Karat, Chaterjee, Bardhan, Yechuri, Raja etc it will be an added bonus.

We open HAL but only under a privatised AAI. Deal?.

[ravibg]

Originally Posted by Devesh;

A major hypothetical to consider ..............

What if BIAL does not have any more money to invest in expansion ?

BIAL is a company funded by its promoters mainly Siemens. If Siemens cuts off the tap, then what are the options for Bangalore as city ?

BIAL, as per the contract have to expand to fulfill growing traffic needs. I am yet to come across any international airport operator who has refused to expand with growing traffic. Additional traffic means additional revenue for them. Unless space constraints force them to stop expansion, there is no reason for BIAL to not expand.

[dakshinapraja]

Originally Posted by mailabode

I am aware of how he works and and i thought i'll tell you.

Thank you!

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by mpvp

Excuse me, Is not Karnataka Government and AAI part of BIAL? When you say BIAL, Karnataka Govt. is included. Please donot single out Karnataka govt. for the blame.

Land aquisition for road widening takes lot of time in Indian conditions. If somebody doesnot know that , especially an airport operator, it is his fault in not fully studying Indian business environment.

Stop the blame game.

Are you serious????

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by mpvp

Hey Raghu, stop calling HAL a cowshed; it had airconditioned terminals, B747 runway and cowsheds dont have A/cs, alright?

.

HAL had airconditioned terminal ?? When I was there last time there was no airconditioning anywhere in the International checkin area, nor the passport and security check area.

Oh wait! you might be right they did have a small airconditioned waiting room past security check for all the 300+ passengers to wait before getting on the B747.

So I guess it is a cowshed afterall

[dakshinapraja]

Okay, for those people who didnot have easy ride to airport, they have BIAL now.

What about those other people who found HAL convenient? Do they have the same privilege now as they used to get before ?

No, and that is good, let everyone share the burden; anyway thanks for accepting that all these arguments were primarily because of the "elite" no longer having their "privilege"

Many people and prominent citizens of Bangalore have pressurised BIAL and Government to speed up road and rail connectivity to BIAL. Remember , Infosys Chairman Narayanamurthy was even thrown out of the BIAL director board for having told them to speed up road connectivity. So, please donot tell now there was no pressure to improve road connectivitty past years.

OK, fair enough, but is that reason enough to re-open HAL?

Short haul passengers make up more than 30% of the total traffic and needs immediate attention. Otherwise, you will see drastic reduction in short haul traffic and consequent reduction in short haul flights in near future.

Do you have any other worthy option to bring back the short haul passengers other than opening HAL airport? Let us know.

No, I do not have any any other suggestion and I do not think that it is incumbent on me to provide one. As I said before, you only think of short haul passengers and that also only looking at short term.

Nobody here is claiming that BIA is perfect - there are a lot of constructive suggestions on how to improve BIA. I have not seen one suggestion from you as to how to improve BIA. All you and MPVP do is to say "Keep HAL open".

BTW, on reading your reply to another forumer's post it seems you are not updating yourself on BIA developments, or you are deliberately twisting sentences to bring a misleading idea - The 35-40 million passenger number is for after the second/third phase. You see, there are people who do think long term. There is a proposal to build a new terminal shortly and also the 2nd runway. Who told you they are not even considering a second runway?

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by mpvp

BIAL had all the time for past 3 years to build a good terminal and two runways. As BIAL wanted HAL is closed. Passengers are finding it inconvenient to fly now from Bangalore to nearby cities.

Well, its a fair game!

Until now lot of passengers living on the other side of city were finding it inconvenient to fly out of HAL. All these years they were travelling 1-1.5 hrs just to get to HAL. So now if you are finding it inconvenient, then too bad, it is what it it is, suck it up and get a grip!

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by Prakash KR

Is it so?
Then why we are seeing photos of new BIAL terminal choked from day 1?
We thought BIAL will be a big improvement over HAL in terms of passenger terminal facilities.

Hmm...I did not want to be judgmental..but anyways....it seems obvious to me now that you are a guru with basic aviation infrastructure intricacies.
If you put 3000 people in a recangular building occupying x acres and place it on a 4000 acre plot, to the layman it naturally seems seems "congestion". Separate out the same building into complete 2 levels (not a semi dual layer) add something called pier concourses (what they call in the "not so advanced" airports like LAX,JFL,ICN,HKG,SIN) and voila you have passengers moving thus freeing up the main terminal for processing like checking, security check etc. on the upper level and an equal number on the lower level for arrivals. But..oooops..sorrry..I am a village bumpkin from "DeveneNeenYelli?" who should not be reminding folks in an advanced country the simple aspects of geometry. How dare a village bumpkin like me aspire that an advanced country like ours to come down to the level of US,UK, China, Korea etc.

3rd runway???? Are you mad?
BIAL doesnot even have plans for 2nd runway in near future and you are talking about 3rd runway

Thanks for pointing out.I think I am. I forgot that I dare not attempt trying to pull Bangalore down to the lowly status of Singapore, Hongkong, London or Beijing. I did not know that Heathrow is a 2 runway airport that can handle 30plus million people.

35-40 million passengers is scaring to me. BIAL is struggling to handle even current passenger traffic at 10 million with no concrete plans for immediate expansion. And you are talking about BIAL going to handle 35-30 million pax. May be the planes have to land on rice fields or NH 7 and pick up passengers from the roads near BIAL

Why not? In addition they are welcome to use all the space avialable in every nook and cranny. Autos,buses etc. compete for every inch of space mixed with pedestrians and what not, I am sure our world class infrastructure can handle jets flying low to pick up passengers from roof tops and the road. HEY, BRILLIANT, this eliminates the need for BIAL and HAL, let's shut down the airports and sell off the land. We will have advanced technology that is unsurpassed in the world. I wholly support this idea. This will solve connectivity and congestion issues too. Hip hip Hurray!!! Since I have never seen or gone beyond "DeveneNeenYelli", i could not think of this, dear aviation community, I am sorry. I have failed!!.

Wrong.
HAL never was a sick public sector ; it was making profits. Check your source of information.

I have checked my sources. Please search for my earlier posts where I have disputed that fact that HAL airport came for free. Here is another source "HAL to lose Rs 600 crore in revenue annually, once airport shuts down" as per - http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/20...r-airport.html. Left to me I would have doubled the profits by providing just a small room with some tube lights strung up on poles and have people queue up on the approach road. Then it would have made it to the top as the world's most profitable airport. Folks from abroad would have then queued up for seeing how we run airports and we could have had a transfer of technology.

Please go check how Houston airport system works managing three airports in that city; Dallas with two airports in that city and so forth.

I am sorry, I haven't ventured beyond "DeveneNeenYalli". Shh..just a secret between us..I actually lied..I made the mistake of venturing into Terminal E in IAH and Terminals A,B and C in DFW (shh..don't tell anyone).

Moreover in India, second airports are going to come up in Noida( delhi), Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkata.

Let's beat them, let's build 5, one in each corner of Bangalore and one on VidhanaSoudha(that way we can get rid of those forward thinking politicians!!).
Ol' king DeveGo**d* is a merry old sould, eieiooo!! Here an airport, there an airport, everywhere an airport! eieiooo!!!! Here a jet there a jet, aiyoooo, DevereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeNeevuYell??????????????????

Yes, HAL airport was damn good designed for 3 million pax. The only problem was that AAI never bothered to expand the HAL terminal and hence was forced to handle beyond its capacity. HAL airport is a very good airport for handling 3 million passenger traffic.

Ya!!! way to go buddy, SIN,HKG, Zurich etc. are lousy "world class" airports that cannot keep up to Indian class airports. I request you to give Brunner one more chance so that he can learn how to design Indian Class airports and forget how to design lousy world class airports so that he can apply the same technologies in Zurich & elsewhere!

You have come to the point. As a retired justice of Bangalore High court said aptly, we have to find that scoundrel who gave away BIAL all of Bangalore at a throwaway price especially the golden price that no new airport within 150km radius.

NO!!! Pleeeeeeeeeeease No!!. There will be "congestion" in our jails and there will be nobody left to run our govt.!! Please I beg the judge!!!

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by Devesh

A major hypothetical to consider ..............

What if BIAL does not have any more money to invest in expansion ?

BIAL is a company funded by its promoters mainly Siemens. If Siemens cuts off the tap, then what are the options for Bangalore as city ?

Ooooohhhhh scccccccarrrryy. Hey, what if Boeing and Airbus run out of money and can't build planes, then we will not need airports because very soon we will run out of planes? Very much a possibility. Also, what if the Indian Govt. strikes a bounty and runs into surplus cash enough to buy half the globe? Very distinct possibilities the way we are posing a threat to other countries with advanced technologies and our city with an old Indian class airport that has been shut down. In that event DGCA and AAI will be called in for expert opinion.

[genialgiant]

BIA capacity survey report in a week

BIAL’s contention is that Bangalore’s unexpected high traffic growth has challenged its capacity planning.

Our Bureau

Bangalore, June 18

An Airports Authority of India team that studied the facilities at the new Bangalore airport is to give its assessment to the Ministry of Civil Aviation on June 25.

The four-member team returned to Delhi on Wednesday with data on air traffic and air-side facilities at Bengaluru International Airport, passenger flow and the capacity at the terminals, besides cargo infrastructure after a three-day survey.

It would analyse the data against requirements of various users and give its assessment report to the Ministry of Civil Aviation on June 25, sources said.

Last month, a division bench of the Karnataka High Court had called for an independent survey of the airport’s capacity while hearing a public-interest case. The petitioner has sought reopening of the old HAL airport due to capacity constraints at the new one. The case is coming up again in July.

Phase-1 of BIA is built for 12 million passengers annually – which the airport is already approaching at 11.4 million.

The operator BIAL, which was planning to start a full-fledged Phase-2 next year, will meanwhile add more amenities, check-in counters and waiting space at the existing facility to meet immediate requirements.

It may also build a terminal for low-cost carriers over the next 18 months as LCC passengers form 30 per cent of the BIA traffic, said Mr Albert Brunner, CEO of the airport, during an interaction with the Aeronautical Society of India this week. The proposals are going before the board shortly.

The smaller addition is being taken up as the full expansion including a second runway is likely to take three years from start.

BIAL’s contention is that Bangalore’s unexpected high traffic growth has challenged its capacity planning: midway through construction, it had to fit in an expansion worth Rs 540 crore in 2006 as the passenger flow grew from the projected 7 million to 9 million.

On the airside, it says it can handle 720 aircraft movements a day versus the 320-350 it manages currently.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...1950932300.htm