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Old June 23rd, 2008, 06:46 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
If Toronto didn't have its long legacy of subway/streetcars, it'll be a lot easier to make a convincing argument for BRT. You'll find we're quite spoiled here though .
Try living in Ottawa for a few years, and you may change your opinion of BRT.
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 07:18 PM   #342
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Do you know that oil companies are one of the biggest backers of BRT? Guess what?, it isn't because it's an efficient transit mode, it is because it is inefficient and expensive. The higher the price of gas goes, the less viable BRT becomes.
Why are you overlooking the obvious fact that every commuter that's riding a BRT route isn't driving a car? The fuel consumption of one biodiesel bus vs. the smog produced by 30 cars. That's the grand difference here. Price of gas is negligible as transit operators often recieve subsidies to run vehicles. Hence what's their average cost for gas in contrast to an everyday individual is quite different.

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This is the same kind of thing that I was talking about in the other thread in the Ontario section; run the Sheppard LRT up along the east side fo the 404 to Finch from Sheppard near Consumers and then have it continue along Finch, clear across the city to Humber.
I haven't gotten over there yet, but you raise a good point. The Sheppard Lrt could serve Seneca College. However some major problems with that. First the Don Mills LRT would already run by there. Think the path of VIVA Green. The LRT will veer east on Finch Ave to directly serve Seneca. Hence redundancy. Second where exactly are you planning to route your ROW along the DVP? We can't have another Allen Exwy-type line again, you know that. Thirdly you're confiming that the "stubway" is utterly useless by having it remain a subway of only 7kms length (I'm assuming you plan on extending it to Consumers Rd). This creates a series of transfers just to make a single directional commute (YUS+stubway+Sheppard LRT). Also besides underused Old Cummer GO stn is there really any justification for better-than-bus through the car-owning affluent neighbourhood on Finch East between Don Mills and Yonge?

This is why I proposed dismantling the "stubway" to create an uninterrupted, continuous trek to Yonge. Yonge/Sheppard isn't really the heart of NYCC either so why not run a ROW adjacent to the existing YUS line stopping at Empress/Park Home en route to Finch. You'll find routing it this way is cost- and time-effective and would serve far more commuters.

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One thing to note though; the trackbed is not the problem with the tunnels. If LRT vehicles didn't have pantographs, it would only be the platforms that need modification, nothing needs to be done about the trackbed, but because the vehicles do use pantographs, the tunnels are too short in height to give enough clearance; where the trackbed does enter the picture is in the special double-tie assembly that was employed for Sheppard, which makes the trackbed thicker than usual, meaning that, if removed, the trackbed could be made lower without actually changing the footings and foundation slab. This is currently under study, but I don't think it will fly since there will inevitably be big problems with lowering the platforms because this kind of thing was never considered at the design stage, meaning that major conflicts are virtually guaranteed and will be very complicated [expensive] to resolve.
And these pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing Sheppard subway infrastructure?

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Why are you even bothering to compare the Transit City network to the legacy network? It is clear that they are intended to be very different. It is also foolish to call the legacy network "bullshit". The management of the legacy network, however, could definately be called "bullshit".
Indeed the management is bullshit, but the LRV is a tangible object one can point the blame stick at !
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Old June 23rd, 2008, 08:44 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by canadave87 View Post
Try living in Ottawa for a few years, and you may change your opinion of BRT.
It didn't impress me at all its first summer in service (21 years or so ago?) -- and now look 'n' ride it, pretty dilapidated!
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Old June 24th, 2008, 02:48 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Why are you overlooking the obvious fact that every commuter that's riding a BRT route isn't driving a car? The fuel consumption of one biodiesel bus vs. the smog produced by 30 cars. That's the grand difference here. Price of gas is negligible as transit operators often recieve subsidies to run vehicles. Hence what's their average cost for gas in contrast to an everyday individual is quite different.
You're thinking only in terms of emmissions and road space, you need a more wholistic perspective, I'd argue. While fuel efficient busses will of course help deal with the issue of gas prices, there are other issues that give it serious disadvantages, most notably upkeep costs, which is higher than that for LRT per rider because BRT will require more staff and maintenance (more vehicles but also higher degrees of daily wear an tear due to higher friction coefficients of roads versus those of rail) as well as higher capital investment for stations because BRT requires more space than LRT. The price of gas is not negligible for the operator, and you must think about the operations side of things because transit costs money to run; that's why we pay a fare in the first place, and gas prices are related to fare hikes, even though transit is subsidized today (wasn't always, it used to be profitable until 1970).



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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
I haven't gotten over there yet, but you raise a good point. The Sheppard Lrt could serve Seneca College. However some major problems with that. First the Don Mills LRT would already run by there. Think the path of VIVA Green. The LRT will veer east on Finch Ave to directly serve Seneca. Hence redundancy.
It's not redundancy, it is called a transfer node, and is an important node if the Sheppard LRT is not going to be at Don Mills and Sheppard as would be the case with this alignment.
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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Second where exactly are you planning to route your ROW along the DVP? We can't have another Allen Exwy-type line again, you know that.
I know you haven't checked the other thread, but I did explain this already there; there's a readily-available green corridor on the east side of the 404. It also wouldn't matter if it was an "Allen" style in this case since there wouldn't be a stop along it, except possibly at Van Horne.
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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Thirdly you're confiming that the "stubway" is utterly useless by having it remain a subway of only 7kms length (I'm assuming you plan on extending it to Consumers Rd). This creates a series of transfers just to make a single directional commute (YUS+stubway+Sheppard LRT). Also besides underused Old Cummer GO stn is there really any justification for better-than-bus through the car-owning affluent neighbourhood on Finch East between Don Mills and Yonge?
Yes, I'm extending the subway to Consumers in such a scenario, of course. However, it is hardly useless as I envision the Sheppard Line acting as the northern-most point of the DRL; the final extension after Eglinton Square would be to connect it to Sheppard via Vic Park. This makes the Sheppard Line an alleviator from Yonge rather than a feeder, which is a disaster waiting to happen if left as-is. Converting to LRT would not avert such a disaster either, because the feeder dynamic remains. As part of the DRL, the transfer at Consumers or VP/Parkwoods area (depending on what route you come from) becomes extremely attractive and useful - and sustainable.

As for Finch East not needing anything but bus service, why don't you download the service summary from the TTC web site and see how much service is run along Finch East between Yonge and Seneca; it is one of the busiest sections in the network, if not the busiest.


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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
This is why I proposed dismantling the "stubway" to create an uninterrupted, continuous trek to Yonge.
Which you would still have with a Finch routing as I proposed. Finch/Yonge and Sheppard/Yonge are about the same distance from NYCC; it's the next subway stop from either one.
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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
And these pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing Sheppard subway infrastructure?
As-is? No, there is no room for the overhead catanery infrastructure.



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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Indeed the management is bullshit, but the LRV is a tangible object one can point the blame stick at !
Except you should recognize that the LRV here is the victim, along with its passengers, of bad management. Blame the managers since they're responsible for the mess the service is.
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Old June 25th, 2008, 06:05 AM   #345
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I think those who are of the opinion that the Sheppard Subway should be abolished are short-sighted. There is a big need for a high-capacity, high-speed long distance travel in the north end of the city. If you are in doubt, look at the 401 a few kilometres to the south.

Transportation networks like subways last for a long time, and while in its present form the Sheppard Line doesn't serve much use, it could and should be completed as a subway to finally finish the long standing need for a high-capacity east-west transit alternative for the north.
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Old June 25th, 2008, 06:14 AM   #346
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I think those who are of the opinion that the Sheppard Subway should be abolished are short-sighted. There is a big need for a high-capacity, high-speed long distance travel in the north end of the city. If you are in doubt, look at the 401 a few kilometres to the south.

Transportation networks like subways last for a long time, and while in its present form the Sheppard Line doesn't serve much use, it could and should be completed as a subway to finally finish the long standing need for a high-capacity east-west transit alternative for the north.
The big piece of the puzzle being overlooked here is where these 401 users are coming from. A GO service from Pickering or Seaton to Richmond Hill or North Toronto (respectively) would do more to attract the 401 crowd. Subways are not high speed, they are only medium speed since they are local in nature, usually (variations can of course allow for express services, but this has not happened in Toronto yet). GO would certainly be higher speed.
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Old June 25th, 2008, 07:05 AM   #347
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As-is? No, there is no room for the overhead catanery infrastructure.
On one of Boston's T Lines the rolling stock switches between catenary in open air section and third rail in the tunnel. It's entirely doable to do the same in the Sheppard Subway tunnel
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Old June 25th, 2008, 09:33 AM   #348
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On one of Boston's T Lines the rolling stock switches between catenary in open air section and third rail in the tunnel. It's entirely doable to do the same in the Sheppard Subway tunnel
I have read that the designs of 3rd-rail LRVs cannot be safely operated in Toronto's system, so while the technology has been applied in other cities, this is not at all doable in Toronto. Issues with the shoe (the part that touches the third rail to get the electricity from the rail to the vehicle) coming into contact with passengers.
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Old June 29th, 2008, 05:13 AM   #349
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Oh, but the recent incident with the drunk TTC bus driver is doing your BRT advocacy such a huge favour.

Your selective news highlighting is shameful.
Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...

Quote:
Wrong turn causes death Car mounted TTC right-of-way -- and collided head-on with streetcar, police believe
By ROB LAMBERTI, SUN MEDIA
Sat, June 28, 2008

A 21-year-old Brampton woman was killed after apparently misjudging the road on Fleet St. and driving on the raised TTC right-of-way before crashing head-on with a streetcar yesterday.

Her passenger, a 23-year-old Brampton woman, suffered cuts, scrapes and bruises in the 12:53 a.m. crash. She has since been released from hospital.

The tremendous impact demolished the front end of the car and crumpled the car's roof. The driver was pronounced dead at the scene, apparently having suffered massive trauma, he said.

The victim and her passenger were apparently headed home after a birthday party, Toronto Police traffic Const. Mig Roberts said. Speed was not a factor but Roberts said it was too early to know if alcohol was involved in the city's 28th fatality of the year.

He said the driver turned right from southbound Bathurst St. to westbound Fleet St., which runs parallel with Lake Shore Blvd. W.

The victim's 1996 Pontiac Sunfire mounted the eastbound lane of the raised right-of-way.

"She continued westbound on the eastbound TTC tracks and collided head-on with a streetcar," Roberts said.

The 33-year-old streetcar operator wasn't hurt -- and there were no passengers on board.

It's the third collision involving a streetcar within the past 17 days.

"We want to remind people, especially during this quasi-long weekend, just to be mindful of where they're travelling and make a planned route to get there, especially with (all) the construction," Roberts said.

"And, obviously, if there's any alcohol consumption, use an alternative means, like the TTC or have a friend drive that person home."
... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently .

Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pant_Vienna_III.JPG
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Old June 29th, 2008, 05:52 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...



... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently .
You're using a drunk driving instance to make an argument? You'll go to any length at all, won't you? Although they haven't confirmed alcohol involvement yet, let's think about it, these people were on the way home from a party, and were too stupid to realize the raised right of way... they must have been drunk, nobody's this bad of a driver, not even suburbanites crash into streetcars. Your misinformed crusade against streetcars is comical at best.

Why don't you go on a crusade against GO Trains everytime a GO Train hits a car at a level crossing... it happens enough times every so often. This means GO Trains are "inherently flawed" by your logic. There was an accident on the Milton Line where someone on Trafalgar Rd. stopped at the crossing like they were supposed to, but then were rear-ended by a drunk driver that pushed the car in front of the GO Train. By your logic, this is the fault of the GO Train and its "inherent flaws", not the drunk driver, just like you are arguing above that the streetcar and "its inherent flaws" are responsible for this accident, not the (I'm presuming drunk) driver.

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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels:
Do you remember when I mentioned the issue about keeping as much of the system on common vehicles as possible? Now you are proposing we get a special vehicle just for Sheppard.

If you are going to design a custom vehicle, then yeah, sure, you could do it, but custom vehicles are very unecomical and there is no good argument to convert it if special vehicles are involved; defeats the purpose entirely if it is not going to be compatible with the rest of the Transit City (and to a lesser extent legacy) network(s).

I said that pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing tunnel as-is. This is true. However, if the track is replaced, without the double-tie system Sheppard uses, which reduces noise caused by vibrations, the height of the track's Top-of-Rail will be lower. This may allow it to be converted and is under study, but the operation is going to be extremely complicated no matter hwo they do it, which means it is going to be expensive, which means there is going to be a lot of arguments against it.

If money were unlimited, sure, we could engineer a conversion of Sheppard.

However, I argue it is obvious to make the infrastructure a sound investment rather than downgrade it is the most economical approach at all, even though Sheppard should never have been a subway in the first place.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 08:48 AM   #351
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You're using a drunk driving instance to make an argument? You'll go to any length at all, won't you? Although they haven't confirmed alcohol involvement yet, let's think about it, these people were on the way home from a party, and were too stupid to realize the raised right of way... they must have been drunk, nobody's this bad of a driver, not even suburbanites crash into streetcars. Your misinformed crusade against streetcars is comical at best.
Sorry, but if I were willing to go to any lengths I would've highlighted this gem:

Quote:
It's the third collision involving a streetcar within the past 17 days.


If streetcars are so great and have been around long enough for the general public to know how to behave around them, tell me then, why is it that these accidents are spiking up to this level?

These are the dangers involved when routing a rapid transit ROW down the median of high-use, local mixed pedestrian/motor roadways. Buses have quicker reaction time to adverse road conditions, like per se a careless driver or pedestrian getting in the path of a bus. Buses can and do more readily brake or swerve out of the way, saving lives. Streetcars would just plow right through... oops !

Quote:
Why don't you go on a crusade against GO Trains everytime a GO Train hits a car at a level crossing... it happens enough times every so often. This means GO Trains are "inherently flawed" by your logic. There was an accident on the Milton Line where someone on Trafalgar Rd. stopped at the crossing like they were supposed to, but then were rear-ended by a drunk driver that pushed the car in front of the GO Train. By your logic, this is the fault of the GO Train and its "inherent flaws", not the drunk driver, just like you are arguing above that the streetcar and "its inherent flaws" are responsible for this accident, not the (I'm presuming drunk) driver.
Every GO line that I know of has well-defined gates to keep pedestrians and cars at bay. What you've described there is a freak accident. I don't seek out "inherent flaws" with the GO network except to say that some of its stations are unnecessary and backlog the system by incessantly stopping trains for said stops. However there are fundemental flaws with LRVs and how they're operated, and there's nothing comical about pointing that reality out!

Quote:
Do you remember when I mentioned the issue about keeping as much of the system on common vehicles as possible? Now you are proposing we get a special vehicle just for Sheppard.
We're still very much in the planning stage of Transit City. Why is everything so set in stone in your mind? Has Bombardier even began to mass-produce the potential fleet yet? Is there even a concept model available for live display? Seen anything that isn't a computer sketch?

No I wasn't proposing anything unique for Sheppard, as the line would be able to interline with Finch West LRT, Eglinton-Crosstown, Scarborough-Malvern (known guarantees) and SRT (highly possible/probable).

Quote:
If you are going to design a custom vehicle, then yeah, sure, you could do it, but custom vehicles are very unecomical and there is no good argument to convert it if special vehicles are involved; defeats the purpose entirely if it is not going to be compatible with the rest of the Transit City (and to a lesser extent legacy) network(s).
Does or does not the Eglinton-Crosstown Line comprise a very significant, can't miss, tunneled portion for almost half its length? Jane and Don Mills have to buried south of St Clair/O'Connor. Tell me won't all these lines require vehicles that can operate equally efficient underground as they would on the surface? Sounds like collapsable pantographs/cataneries are a must for the majority of the proposed Transit City lines. Hence there's nothing unique about the vehicles that'd run through the "Stubway" ROW.

Quote:
I said that pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing tunnel as-is. This is true. However, if the track is replaced, without the double-tie system Sheppard uses, which reduces noise caused by vibrations, the height of the track's Top-of-Rail will be lower. This may allow it to be converted and is under study, but the operation is going to be extremely complicated no matter hwo they do it, which means it is going to be expensive, which means there is going to be a lot of arguments against it.
So you want the "Stubway" to remain a white elephant? Think today's ridership levels are bad, wait til there's a true through east-west alternative routing north the 401 vying for commuters. See yah !

But just as to further school you on the wonders of LRTs that are adaptable to both open-air surface and tunneled underground conditions, here's some pics. Enjoy !



Quote:
If money were unlimited, sure, we could engineer a conversion of Sheppard.
Yes it'll cost a pretty penny to refurbish the existing line. But you know what stalling will do right? Costs will only inflate the longer we prolong the inevitable. Best to get the ball rolling, sooner than later. The line was at risk before when the city was cash-strapped. For it to go offline for a few years to make it a more viable and valuable alternative to the 401 for commuters, is a corrective course of action.

Quote:
However, I argue it is obvious to make the infrastructure a sound investment rather than downgrade it is the most economical approach at all, even though Sheppard should never have been a subway in the first place.
It will be a sound investment once travellers from as far west as Brampton (via Humber College) and from as east as Morningside Heights can utilize the "Stubway" as incorporated into a lengthier line which nodally hits Humber College> Albion Mall> Jane/Finch> Keele/Finch> Yonge subway> Fairview> Agincourt> McCowan/Sheppard> Malvern Town Centre. This will bring in far more commuters than the "stubway" alone ever will (an extension past VP would never fly, if even to there).
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Old July 3rd, 2008, 05:29 AM   #352
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Toronto could hand Bombardier a "signature" contract

TORONTO, July 2 (Reuters) - Bombardier Inc appears poised to win a major contract to replace Toronto's fleet of streetcars, highlighting the growing global demand for the plane and train maker's light rail vehicles.

The contract, worth C$1.25 billion ($1.7 billion) for 204 new streetcars, is expected to go to the Montreal-based company after Germany's Siemens AG decided not to enter the bid.

Given growing concerns over pollution and congestion in major cities around the world, the light rail segment is likely to have long-term growth potential for Bombardier. It is already the world's No.1 provider of light rail equipment with customers in Europe and North America.

"It's green, it's politically correct," said Jacques Kavafian, analyst Research Capital, of the transit division, "It's got the whole environmental thing written on it, so I think it's going to be important."

The potential contract has an option for purchasing up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Toronto.

A spokesman for the TTC was unable to give a total value of the contract should the option be exercised, but a report in the Globe and Mail newspaper put the value at more than C$3 billion.

David Slack, a spokesman for Bombardier's transportation division, said the deal could stand as a "signature" contract for the company as Toronto is an important city for mass transit in North America.

"In terms of positioning ourselves as the leader of light rail vehicles in the world, it's very important in that regard," said Slack.

Bombardier and Britain's TRAM Power were the only two companies to submit bids to the proposals process, which the Toronto Transit Commission closed on Monday.

The TTC had stipulated that the streetcars needed to be completely wheelchair accessible, and that at least 25 percent of the content for the vehicles' design and construction would have to be Canadian.

The Canadian content requirement could help give a boost to the manufacturing sector in Ontario, which has been struggling to cope with the impact of the robust Canadian dollar.

For a contract of this size, the company would typically involve multiple plants in the process, Slack said. "Certainly there would be an important role for our site in Thunder Bay, Ontario."

A spokesman for Siemens, which could have been a major rival to Bombardier's bid, said the Canadian rule was one of the things the company considered when deciding against entering the process, although he noted it was not the most important consideration.

The Canadian requirement, as well as Bombardier's previous work in providing subway cars for the TTC, put the odds on the company being awarded the contract, analysts said.

The TTC said that it expects to make a final decision on the contract in November.

Shares of Bombardier closed down 20 Canadian cents, or 2.7 percent, at C$7.21 on the Toronto Stock Exchange amid a wider market downturn. ($1=$1.01 Canadian)
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Old July 4th, 2008, 09:47 PM   #353
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Now if Bombardier could buy the GM Oshawa truck plant for a firesale price once it closes next year, the manufacturing sector here would have a future after all.
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Old July 4th, 2008, 10:31 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...



... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently .

Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pant_Vienna_III.JPG
The Edmonton LRT runs in "tube" type tunnels using the U2 and new SD160 LRT cars. The pantograph height automatically adjusts for the situation. So it can be done.

Edmonton "tube" tunnel deep under the University near University Station. Notice the overhead wire.


Edmonton LRT on the surface line - notice how high the overhead wire is and how the pantograph adjusts
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Old July 18th, 2008, 05:25 AM   #355
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Toronto's C$1.25 bln streetcar plan goes off track
17 July 2008

TORONTO (Reuters) - Toronto's transit authority said Thursday that it has canceled the proposals process to replace its aging fleet of streetcars after the bids it received from Bombardier Inc and Britain's TRAM Power Ltd were deemed to be non-compliant.

The Toronto Transit Commission said that Bombardier's bid failed a technical evaluation related to negotiating the tight turns on the city's existing streetcar system, while TRAM Power's bid was determined to be not commercially compliant.

The TTC can now contact any vendor, including those who responded to an initial request for expressions of interest, to discuss what issues any of the companies had with the requirements of the proposal process.

The contract for 204 new streetcars, worth C$1.25 billion ($1.24 billion), had looked likely to go to Montreal-based Bombardier after Germany's Siemens AG decided not to enter the bidding, despite showing earlier interest.

Using the specifications outlined in the original request for proposals, the TTC said it will contact known manufacturers to discuss issues that either led the companies to not enter the bidding, or to submit a bid that was not compliant.

The contract would have an option to purchase up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Toronto, Canada's biggest city.

The Globe and Mail newspaper has put the total value of the contract at more than C$3 billion.

The TTC said the latest process will take about four weeks to complete. ($1=$1.01 Canadian)
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Old July 19th, 2008, 06:02 PM   #356
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Very cool -- über metro-ish!
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Old July 19th, 2008, 06:16 PM   #357
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How do they compare to Toronto's current subways in terms of speed?
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Old July 20th, 2008, 04:45 AM   #358
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I'm sorry!!! But in my country only use public transit who don't have money to buy a car (here the cars are very expensive and most peolpe don't earn much money ). And i've heard in Canada verybody have e can bye a car.
Vey bad news, it means people in Brazil don't have civic principles, and are not acquainted with the word ecology.
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Old July 20th, 2008, 07:06 PM   #359
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There must be a couple of low-floor tram manufacturers out there. There is no shortage of them on European city streets. Why didn't they bid (although I think Bombardier sold to a few of those places)?
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Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

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Old July 20th, 2008, 07:44 PM   #360
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There must be a couple of low-floor tram manufacturers out there. There is no shortage of them on European city streets. Why didn't they bid (although I think Bombardier sold to a few of those places)?
25% Canadian content.
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