Defense/Military- Developments News and Exports (ONLY)

[Intoxication]

Solution: Raise the levies then!

[Dallas1]

Blaming Pakistan's Spies For A War Gone Wrong

By Eric Margolis

08/08/08 "Huffington Post" -- - NEW YORK -- The almost forgotten war in Afghanistan, that was supposed to have been won in 2001, has roared back to life with a vengeance. More American soldiers are now dying in Afghanistan than Iraq.

As resistance to the US-led occupation of Afghanistan intensifies, the increasingly frustrated Bush administration is venting its anger against Pakistan and its military intelligence agency, Inter-Service Intelligence, better known as ISI.

The White House leaked claims ISI is in cahoots with pro-Taliban groups in Pakistan's tribal agency along the Afghan border and warns them of impending US attacks. Some administration officials believe ISI may even be hiding Osama bin Laden.

On top of this, the Bush administration just leaked to the New York Times, which lost no time in again acting a megaphone for the administration, a claim that CIA had electronic intercepts proving ISI was behind the recent bombing of India's embassy in Kabul.

President George Bush angrily asked Pakistan's visiting prime minister, Yousuf Gilani, "who's in charge of ISI?" This is a good question, and one not easily answered.

I was one of the first western journalists invited into ISI HQ in 1986. ISI's then director, the fierce Lt. General Akhtar Rahman, personally briefed me on Pakistan's secret role in fighting Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. ISI's `boys' provided communications, logistics, training, heavy weapons, and direction in the Afghan War. I kept ISI's role in Afghanistan a secret until the war ended in 1989.

ISI was primarily responsible for the victory over the Soviets, which hastened the collapse of the USSR. At war's end, Gen. Akhtar and Pakistan's leader, Zia ul Haq, both died in a sabotaged C-130 transport aircraft. Unfortunately, most Pakistanis blame the United States for this assassination.

On my subsequent trips to Pakistan I was routinely briefed by succeeding ISI chiefs, and joined ISI officers in the field, sometimes under fire.

ISI is accused of meddling in Pakistani politics. The late Benazir Bhutto, who often was thwarted and vexed by Pakistan's spooks, always playfully scolded me, `you and your beloved generals at ISI.'

But before Gen. Pervez Musharraf took over as military dictator, ISI was the third world's most efficient, professional intelligence agency. It still defends Pakistan against internal and external subversion by India's powerful spy agency, RAW, and by Iran. ISI works closely with CIA and the Pentagon and was primarily responsible for the rapid ouster of Taliban from power in 2003. But ISI also must serve Pakistan's interests, which are often not identical to Washington's, and sometimes in conflict.

In fact, Washington has been forcing Pakistan's government, military and intelligence services through huge secret payments and threats of war into policies that are bitterly opposed by 90% of Pakistan's people. Small wonder Pakistan's leadership is so often accused of playing a double game.

The last ISI Director General I knew was the tough, highly capable Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmad. He was purged by Musharraf because Washington felt Mahmood was insufficiently responsive to US interests. Ever since 2001, ensuing ISI directors were all pre-approved by Washington. All senior ISI veterans deemed `Islamist' or too nationalistic by Washington were purged at Washington's demand, leaving ISI's upper ranks top-heavy with too many yes-men and paper-passers.

Even so, there is strong opposition inside ISI to Washington's bribing and arm-twisting the subservient Musharraf dictatorship into waging war against fellow Pakistanis and gravely damaging Pakistan's national interests.

ISI's primary duty is defending Pakistan, not promote US interests. Pashtun tribesmen on the border sympathizing with their fellow Taliban Pashtun in Afghanistan are Pakistanis. Many, like the legendary Jalaluddin Haqqani, are old US allies and `freedom fighters' from the 1980's. When the US and its western allies finally abandon Afghanistan, as they will inevitably do one day, Pakistan must go on living with its rambunctious tribals.

Violence and uprisings in these tribal areas are not caused by `terrorism,' as Washington and Musharraf claimed. They directly result from the US-led occupation of Afghanistan and Washington's forcing the hated Musharraf regime to attack its own people.

ISI is trying to restrain pro-Taliban Pashtun tribesmen while dealing with growing US attacks into Pakistan that threaten a wider war. India, Pakistan's bitter foe, has an army of agents in Afghanistan and is arming, backing and financing the Karzai puppet regime in Kabul in hopes of turning Afghanistan into a protectorate. Pakistan's historic strategic interests in Afghanistan have been undermined by the US occupation. Now, the US, Canada and India are trying to eliminate Pakistani influence in Afghanistan.

ISI, many of whose officers are Pashtun, has every right to warn Pakistani citizens of impending US air attacks that kill large numbers of civilians. But ISI also has another vital mission. Preventing Pakistan's Pashtun, 15-20% of the population of 165 million, from rekindling the old `Greater Pashtunistan' movement calling for union of the Pashtun tribes of Pakistan and Afghanistan into a new Pashtun nation. The Pashtun have never recognized the Durand Line(today's Pakistan-Afghan border) drawn by British imperialists to sunder the world's largest tribal people. Greater Pashtunistan would tear apart Pakistan and invite Indian military intervention.

Washington's bull-in-a-china shop behavior pays no heeds to these realities. Instead, Washington demonizes faithful old allies ISI and Pakistan while supporting Afghanistan's Communists and drug dealers, and allowing India to stir the Afghan pot -- all for the sake of new energy pipelines.

As Henry Kissinger cynically noted, being America's ally is more dangerous than being its enemy.

copyright Eric S. Margolis 2008

[siamu maharaj]

And people hate me when I say that Afghanistan is the worst neighbor in the world. Given the choice, I'll have 10 Indias as our neighbor that 1 Afghanistan.

[Intoxication]

Originally Posted by SiamuRathka

And people hate me when I say that Afghanistan is the worst neighbor in the world.

I say that too!

[siamu maharaj]

Coz you've seen the light.

And WTF's up with your avatar?!

[Intoxication]

Originally Posted by SiamuRathka

Coz you've seen the light.

And WTF's up with your avatar?!

Qaiser did it for me. Coz 14th August is coming and everyone is supporting Pakistani flag avatars. So he made one for me.

[NewYork-wala]

Originally Posted by SiamuRathka

And people hate me when I say that Afghanistan is the worst neighbor in the world. Given the choice, I'll have 10 Indias as our neighbor that 1 Afghanistan.

Agreed.

[brightside.]

Afghanistan is our Mexico.

[KB]

bring some democracy to mexico ....lets see what happens to the states then

[Intoxication]

Originally Posted by brightside.

Afghanistan is our Mexico.

Mexico isn't nearly as bad as Afghanistan. Its actually way better than us (Pakistan). I'm sure that USA would rather have Mexico as its neighbour than Pakistan! A better thing to say would be that Mexico is USA's Afghanistan. But I can see where you're coming from, with your example.

[insomniac00]

well id totally disagree with you when u say mexico is much better or a lot better than pakistan.... yes you can show me all the GDP, GDP per capita, exports, FDI figures of mexicio which are many many times higher....but you really need to dig in to the real deal there....all the mequiladoras and other american companies that produce and manufacture goods there totally export them to other countries afcourse after fullfilling american demands. yes it does create employment opportunites....but do u know how bad the workers are paid. their conditions are worse than people working in nike's sweatshops in bangladesh. GDP per capita if u consider than definately go for the GINI index which shall shwo u the true picture. just do the reasearch i dont have time to write an essay

[Intoxication]

Originally Posted by insomniac00

well id totally disagree with you when u say mexico is much better or a lot better than pakistan.... yes you can show me all the GDP, GDP per capita, exports, FDI figures of mexicio which are many many times higher....but you really need to dig in to the real deal there....all the mequiladoras and other american companies that produce and manufacture goods there totally export them to other countries afcourse after fullfilling american demands. yes it does create employment opportunites....but do u know how bad the workers are paid. their conditions are worse than people working in nike's sweatshops in bangladesh. GDP per capita if u consider than definately go for the GINI index which shall shwo u the true picture. just do the reasearch i dont have time to write an essay

Oh boy! Their Gini Index is the same as China's. Whilst having a much higher Per Capita Income. China is about too or already has overtaken Mexico in inequality.


Proof that Mexico is better than Pakistan. Its a High Development Country, part of OECD etc etc just do the reasearch I dont have time to write an essay. Btw are you a Pakistani living in America or North America?

[brightside.]

Originally Posted by Intoxication

Mexico isn't nearly as bad as Afghanistan. Its actually way better than us (Pakistan). I'm sure that USA would rather have Mexico as its neighbour than Pakistan! A better thing to say would be that Mexico is USA's Afghanistan. But I can see where you're coming from, with your example.

You don't get it, do you? Mexico is far worse than the US, and Mexicans move north illegally and bring crime and drugs and guns to America. Mexicans are heavily involved in smuggling. Afghanistan is far worse than Pakistan, and Afghans move east and bring crime and drugs and guns to Pakistan. Afghans are heavily involved in smuggling.

See the point now?

[zenith_suv]

I was just browsing through the Pakistan centric forums on SSC and I'm quite astounded by the military prowess of Pakistan , as someone earlier said it defiantly has the most powerful military and air force in the Islamic world . Brilliant

But I also went through the Pakistan military doctrine and a certain "minimum deterrence" , Pakistan has so much might now that no country in it's right mind would attack it , yet there is the maximum allotment towards it , why so ??

When someone bought the point up about diversifying some expenditure towards Social causes , he/she was slaughtered in the thread . There appears a sought of obsession with the armed forces , the thread is a testament to that - a massive 48 pages compared to Islamabad progress which stands at 37 pages and other cities far behind.

When other neighboring countries are moving forward economically (BRIC nations) , it is healthy for Pakistan to match potential rivals eye for an eye - even if they can't afford it.

[brightside.]

First of all, there have been multiple city progress threads. We start a new one after we reach 1000 posts. This thread is the first military thread, it hasn't even reached 1000 posts yet.

Secondly, as to why the military eats up a huge chunk of our resources, its because we face a (potential?) enemy many, many times our size. Currently India has as many troops in Kashmir alone as the entire Pakistan army has at it's disposal. What choice does Pakistan have in this circumstance? India keeps upping it's military equipment purchases and Pakistan is forced to make a move that at least acts as some kind of deterrence to India. We have fought what....4 wars now with India yet not 1 inch of today's Pakistan has ever been taken away from us. Imagine walking down a street alone and getting jumped by seven to ten guys...on 4 different occasions (not saying India started the wars, but just giving an analogy). Each time Pakistan fared reasonably well, except in 1971 when only 45,000 Pakistani army troops held off millions of Indians and Mukti Bahini without any air support for a fortnight.

Now we also have new threats from terrorists and militants, which need to be dealt with.

We are unlikely to fight with India again for a long time (but you never know with these two countries, Kashmir is not looking good right now), we still face many military threats, and the survival of Pakistan depends on a strong military. The only institution in Pakistan that has remained stable throughout our 61 years of existence.

[s6demon]

Originally Posted by zenith_suv

But I also went through the Pakistan military doctrine and a certain "minimum deterrence" , Pakistan has so much might now that no country in it's right mind would attack it , yet there is the maximum allotment towards it , why so ??

When someone bought the point up about diversifying some expenditure towards Social causes , he/she was slaughtered in the thread . There appears a sought of obsession with the armed forces , the thread is a testament to that - a massive 48 pages compared to Islamabad progress which stands at 37 pages and other cities far behind.

When other neighboring countries are moving forward economically (BRIC nations) , it is healthy for Pakistan to match potential rivals eye for an eye - even if they can't afford it.

Pakistan has always mantained minimum deterrance and has never tried to match India or China's military as you seem to think. India's military is and always has been atleast 7 times larger than that of Pakistan and so is its military expenditure. Pakistan knows it cant afford to match the spending of its neighbours and it doesnt try to do so. the info you have gathered is wrong.

when minimum deterrance was reached in the 90s the spending greatly slowed but as the status quo changed and militaries in the region went on a spending spree, Pakistan too has had to mantain a healthy defence infrastructure. India, just by itself, has one of the biggest defence contracts out in the market today.

Pakistan has never attacked a country, but has been attacked repeatedly in its short 60 years. so mantaining a minimum deterance is very important, but that does not mean that anyone who argues for a strong defensive force is willing to compromise on social and educational issues, on the contrary rather.

The city development projects as Bright put it have been rotated multiple times so the Islamabad or Karachi or Lahore threads you see now are most likely second or a third ones.

[FK]

Back up in a few hours.

[KB]

please keep the india-pakistan wars out of this.

[Naresh]

Gentlemen and Ma’am :

Firstly : My apologies for a possibly pretend “Indian” using a moniker with the Name of the Father of our Nation.

Secondly : I hope that there are no repeats but if so it is requested that if a similar he-she-it, as the case may be, ventures into this domain exhibiting similar imbecility then we Indians should be given a chance to taking him-her-it to task.

Thirdly : Ooga-Booga Ji - Why descend to the level of a retarded imbecile? However, I can understand the reason for your heckles being “raised”.

Fourthly : Moderators - You should have left the retarded post on as an example for other “retards” to keep away!

Finally : It is a Nation’s and it’s Peoples’ prerogative to spend their “Hard Earned Monies” any which way they want!!

In ending for the retards : Tujh Ko Parayi Kya Padi - Bhali Upnee Nubaird Tu!!!

Cheers

[oogabooga]

Originally Posted by Naresh

Gentlemen and Ma’am :

Firstly : My apologies for a possibly pretend “Indian” using a moniker with the Name of the Father of our Nation.

Secondly : I hope that there are no repeats but if so it is requested that if a similar he-she-it, as the case may be, ventures into this domain exhibiting similar imbecility then we Indians should be given a chance to taking him-her-it to task.

Thirdly : Ooga-Booga Ji - Why descend to the level of a retarded imbecile? However, I can understand the reason for your heckles being “raised”.

Fourthly : Moderators - You should have left the retarded post on as an example for other “retards” to keep away!

Finally : It is a Nation’s and it’s Peoples’ prerogative to spend their “Hard Earned Monies” any which way they want!!

In ending for the retards : Tujh Ko Parayi Kya Padi - Bhali Upnee Nubaird Tu!!!

Cheers

I'm not an imbecile


BAD NARESH BAD BAD! BAD!


I dont know what to take away from you?



No but seriously, that moron had the audacity to come here and insult the father of our nation and that too whilest hiding his identity! One thing about me, I dont take lightly to any insults being uttered against Jinnah or my country. been in numerous fights and broken numerous noses over such issues, had gotten a blackeye once too!