Bakerloo Line - Reviving rumours of the southern extension

[Sesquip]

A station under Brixton Hill would be DEEP
Many people coming down from the hill currently ride a bus then get on the Victoria line at Brixton. There's plenty of train stations that are also a few bus stops away - Herene and Tulse Hills, the two Streatham stations. Let's take another look at the thread title shall we? The Bakerloo line is the obvious choice for extension, because it has spare capacity and is 'pointed' at an area of South London that currently has no tube or rail. The 'streatham hill gap' is smaller than the 'walworth gap' : http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=...5ded1c7b4d1a54

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by Bob

Yes I did, I've used it. As you point out Bromley South has a good service to Victoria and is getting a much improved Thameslink to Central London. Improved access to London Bridge through a new switch and crossing to send the Bromley North services directly to London Bridge (as they used to, the track bed is still there) would give it access to the three key areas. I don't see where the need for the tube comes in.

TfL branding is a big kudos, no space for trains at London end means feeding it into the tube is the best bet. Given that there's likely to need to be a depot at the southern end, Bromley North Bakerloo will cost Croxely link/Watford Junction Bakerloo figures, hardly anything to severely damage other schemes, but rather add great value to existing ones.

I just have a different angle on this I guess. I'm looking for places that don't have any service at all, West of Brockwell Park being one and think that should have priority. Others would be around Old Kent Road, East Dulwich (south of), Parts of Hackney, Chelsea, Stoke Newington, Clerkenwell, Battersea..... Population density or work location density are key as is potential for more of both. The closer to central London the stronger the case IMO. The longer any bakerloo extension becomes the less likely it is another improvement happens.

as I pointed out, it doesn't as the cost is so small (and also, perhaps, can be considered phase 2). If anything it will cause there to be more political justification for tube lines in South London, as it'll add to the success of the Bakerloo.

Streatham Hill (along Brixton hill road and/or Efra Rd-Dulwich Rd jnc), no station at all, high population density. If you mean extend the Northern here from Kennington rather than the Victoria, then yeah, why not. The northern may be heading to Battersea though. Who knows.

Definitely needs 1, if not two tube lines. Old Kent Road ought to get one (perhaps taking over NR from Deptford to Charlton), Hackney and Chelsea should get served via Chelney, Stoke Newington via some other line, Clerkenwell via an addition stop on the Met (easiest of the bunch to do), Battersea via some tube line that isn't the Northern (perhaps one that mops up Stoke Newington and the rest of Hackney at one end, before going to Clapham Junction: you could even serve Clerkenwell with it).

[mps247]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Definitely needs 1, if not two tube lines. Old Kent Road ought to get one (perhaps taking over NR from Deptford to Charlton), Hackney and Chelsea should get served via Chelney, Stoke Newington via some other line, Clerkenwell via an addition stop on the Met (easiest of the bunch to do), Battersea via some tube line that isn't the Northern (perhaps one that mops up Stoke Newington and the rest of Hackney at one end, before going to Clapham Junction: you could even serve Clerkenwell with it).

Talking about Battersea, one of the routes for Chelney has the line following East Putney-Wandsworth Town-Clapham Junction-Battersea-Victoria (in other words, a Chelsea-Hackney line that doesn't call at any station in Chelsea!).

I think the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea prefer East Putney-Wandsworth Town-Clapham Junction-Chelsea Harbour-Kings Road-Sloane Square-Victoria.

It seems as though the route through Chelsea makes more sense, but does leave Battersea without a line. Would there be much demand for a station in Battersea? I ask because it doesn't seem economical to build a new line to serve Battersea, but I might be mistaken in my belief.

(Sorry about hijacking a thread about the Bakerloo line extension to ask this - the mention of Battersea brought the question into my mind, and I didn't know where else to ask).

[sweek]

Clapham Junction is in Battersea. A lot of people seem to forget that sometimes.

I like the Putney to Victoria route but instead of serving Chelsea Harbour, it could serve Battersea north (or whatever you'd call that area), then cross the Thames around Battersea Bridge Road to King's Road.

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by SE9

Agree with that:

Hmmm not for me... Camberwell should be key (makes the route a little less direct but pros outweigh cons).

For me:

Walworth - Camberwell - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley - Lewisham - Hither Green (surfaces & new depot) - Grove Park - Sundridge Park - Bromley North

Taking over the Hayes branch would give them a worse service (smaller trains, slower service into London, loss of direct City trains), whereas as has been noted Bromley North is a shuttle service and so becoming the end of the Bakerloo would add value, not detract. Loads of railway land between Hither Green and Grove Park for the new depot too, so the cramped London Road can be done away with.

[mps247]

Originally Posted by sweek

Clapham Junction is in Battersea. A lot of people seem to forget that sometimes.

I like the Putney to Victoria route but instead of serving Chelsea Harbour, it could serve Battersea north (or whatever you'd call that area), then cross the Thames around Battersea Bridge Road to King's Road.

I like that idea! A station South of the river in North Battersea would be better than one North of the river at Chelsea Harbour. Is there a suitable site?

Originally Posted by Tubeman

Hmmm not for me... Camberwell should be key (makes the route a little less direct but pros outweigh cons).

Looking at the map, would it not be better to extend the Northern line to Camberwell rather than the Bakerloo line?

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by mps247

Looking at the map, would it not be better to extend the Northern line to Camberwell rather than the Bakerloo line?

Depends where it goes after that; a little circuitous, but if the Northern is extended from Kennington it could go Kennington - Camberwell - Loughborough Jcn - Brixton - Brixton Hill - Streatham Hill - Streatham - Norbury (then possibly on to Thornton Heath Pond and a terminal loop serving West and East Croydon).

It would be more useful however if the Northern and Bakerloo extensions interchanged, i.e.:

Northern:

Kennington - Camberwell - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley - Lewisham - Hither Green - Grove Park - Sundridge Park - Bromley North

Bakerloo:

Elephant & Castle - Walworth - Camberwell - Loughborough Jcn - Brixton - Brixton Hill - Streatham Hill - Streatham - Norbury - Thornton Heath Pond - West Croydon - East Croydon

This would allow good connections between different areas of South London avoiding Central London

[cle]

I like the interchange idea - there should be one. Never thought of Camberwell though, always thought it would be Brixton or Herne Hill.

My route for Chelney would have a stop on the Kings Road around the Town Hall (maybe where that farmers market thing is, or Heals) and then one around Prince Of Wales Drive in Battersea, and then CJ. Another leftfield option could be continuing to Imperial Wharf, but I think that's too far west.

From Clapham, either direct to Wimbledon via Earlsfield, which is neater and quicker, or via Putney taking over the rarely used link to East Putney. That would certainly have more benefits.

It wouldn't relieve the Northern line much, but maybe after a 100% split, this would be better.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by Tubeman

Depends where it goes after that; a little circuitous, but if the Northern is extended from Kennington it could go Kennington - Camberwell - Loughborough Jcn - Brixton - Brixton Hill - Streatham Hill - Streatham - Norbury (then possibly on to Thornton Heath Pond and a terminal loop serving West and East Croydon).

Loughborough Junction is a no-no - it's out the way and not worth doing. Dare I suggest going through Croydon to Purley?

It would be more useful however if the Northern and Bakerloo extensions interchanged, i.e.:

Northern:

Kennington - Camberwell - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley - Lewisham - Hither Green - Grove Park - Sundridge Park - Bromley North

Bakerloo:

Elephant & Castle - Walworth - Camberwell - Loughborough Jcn - Brixton - Brixton Hill - Streatham Hill - Streatham - Norbury - Thornton Heath Pond - West Croydon - East Croydon

This would allow good connections between different areas of South London avoiding Central London

I thought that this would be the best solution last night.

The thing is, is that you can do it in two stages - build Elephant-Lewisham-Bromley, and the Camberwell (cross platform) interchange. Then built Kennington-Streatham, etc and reroute the Bakerloo.

[Tubeman]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Loughborough Junction is a no-no - it's out the way and not worth doing.

It's halfway between Camberwell Green and Brixton, so seems logical... But I'd only suggest it if the Bakerloo extension remains relatively short (e.g. to Streatham or Norbury only)... If it goes all the way to Croydon or beyond the additional stop would be pointless.

Originally Posted by sotonsi

Dare I suggest going through Croydon to Purley?I thought that this would be the best solution last night.

Then why not on to take over the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches? Both have pretty poor services and I reckon a 4-6 tph Tube service would generate a lot more traffic. Maybe 4 tph on each (giving 8 tph north of Purley) with a further 20 tph terminating at Croydon? (i.e. 28tph along the core Croydon to Queen's Park stretch, post-ATO).

Purley would need to happen as there's nowhere else between Croydon and Elephant & Castle to build a depot, and there really needs to be a tunnel mouth at the southern end to assist with ventilation otherwise you'd have a dead-end tunnel all the way from Queens Park to Croydon which would be stifling.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by Tubeman

It's halfway between Camberwell Green and Brixton, so seems logical... But I'd only suggest it if the Bakerloo extension remains relatively short (e.g. to Streatham or Norbury only)... If it goes all the way to Croydon or beyond the additional stop would be pointless.

actually it's a lot closer to Brixton (after all, East Brixton served both Loughborough Junction and Brixton). It's also two sides of a triangle. I see no reason to add the stop, especially if heading to areas administrated by Surrey.

Then why not on to take over the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches? Both have pretty poor services and I reckon a 4-6 tph Tube service would generate a lot more traffic. Maybe 4 tph on each (giving 8 tph north of Purley) with a further 20 tph terminating at Croydon? (i.e. 28tph along the core Croydon to Queen's Park stretch, post-ATO).

I guess if you get a cross-platform interchange with NR at Purley, then yes, you could. I'd have 12tph to Purley - the bus traffic is rather high from what I gather, and 8tph is similar to the current frequency, which doesn't remove people from the more frequent buses between Purley and Croydon. 4tph can terminate at Purley and 4 to each branch (Tattenham Corner will need doubling to allow 4tph to go past Smitham).

Purley would need to happen as there's nowhere else between Croydon and Elephant & Castle to build a depot, and there really needs to be a tunnel mouth at the southern end to assist with ventilation otherwise you'd have a dead-end tunnel all the way from Queens Park to Croydon which would be stifling.

Indeed, and likewise Bromley North beyond Lewisham to stop a dead end (or at least the difficult bit of tunnelling to the surface...)

[SE9]

On a map:

[sweek]

My idea for south London:

Northern Line: Kennington - Camberwell Green (interchange with Bakerloo) - Loughborough Road (interchange with NR)- Herne Hill (interchange with Victoria) - Brockwell Junction (new station, interchange with the Sutton and Mole Valley line) - West Dulwich - Gipsy Hill - Crystal Palace (interchange with NR / Overground / Tramlink)

Bakerloo line: Walworth - Camberwell Green (interchange Northern Line) - Peckham Rye (Overground) - Queens Road Peckham - New Cross Gate (Overground) - St. John's Rail - Lewisham (DLR/NR) - Hither Green - Grove Park (NR) - Sundridge Rail - Bromley North (Tramlink).

Victoria line: small extension Brixton - Herne Hill (Northern Line)

Tramlink: extended to Crystal Palace (Northern / Overground) and Bromley North (Bakerloo)
image hosted on flickr

Any thoughts?

[mps247]

I was thinking:

Bakerloo:
Elephant & Castle - Walworth - Peckham Rye ---> stations to Lewisham

Northern:
Kennington - Camberwell - Peckham Rye ---> stations to Crystal Palace

Victoria:
Brixton - Brixton Hill

The Victoria extension will almost certainly require the Chelney line to relieve overcrowding in the central section.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by mps247

Victoria:
Brixton - Brixton Hill

The Victoria extension will almost certainly require the Chelney line to relieve overcrowding in the central section.

I don't think it would, especially if it was a more efficient terminus layout - Brixton Hill doesn't add any other feeder lines, nor does it do anything but have (the excellent aim of) removing the need for a bus journey/walk for those in the large no-mans-land with no stations.

Originally Posted by sweek

Any thoughts?

Complete failure to serve the under-served area south of Brixton...

I'd also have the Northern line (if going via that corridor) go via Sydenham Hill, rather than Gipsy Hill and then extend to Penge (interchange with LO/NR at Penge West, and replacing Penge East), Kent House (cross-platform with NR) before continuing as a surface route via Elmers End and Woodside (cross-platform with Tramlink?), before using the old NR alignment to old Addiscombe to descend under Croydon. This would enable the Chatham ML to have Victoria-Herne Hill-Kent House-Beckenham Junction-Shortlands, removing the need for stoppers on it.

[Damarr]

Originally Posted by SE9

On a map:

A man can dream. I quite like living in Camberwell already, but it would be improved immensely if trains to the centre and beyond were available from the area near the green (instead of a bus to Oval or NR from Denmark Hill and then changing).

Supposing the money was available tomorrow (I know 20-30 years is more likely ), how long would it actually take to get something like this up and running? I'm guessing at least several years of surveying and construction?

[sweek]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

I don't think it would, especially if it was a more efficient terminus layout - Brixton Hill doesn't add any other feeder lines, nor does it do anything but have (the excellent aim of) removing the need for a bus journey/walk for those in the large no-mans-land with no stations.
Complete failure to serve the under-served area south of Brixton...

I understand your point but I feel like the area under Brixton is just not as busy as the area south-east of that point.

Streatham and Norwood aren't very busy stations, really. And the current alignments and train stations serve them quite well. Croydon I think is going to make the Northern line too busy to handle the extension, which is why I decided to terminate a little further north(-east) at Crystal Palace.

[Smarty]

Originally Posted by SE9

On a map:

Still leaves the Old Kent Rd area woefully underserved. Why not open up Walworth and Camberwell to new stations on the overground line that passes through and route the Bakerloo down the Old Kent Rd via Bricklayer's Arms and Albany Road to Peckham.

[mr_jrt]

Here's my attempt at modifying your map:

[iampuking]

I don't see why the Bakerloo line has to take such a southerly route. Personally I think following approximately the route of Old Kent Road would be better as it is placed slap bang in the middle of a massive area unserved by NR or LU. Then I think it should continue to New Cross/New Cross Gate with a single station serving both and thence on to Lewisham and Bromley. Dartford is full of suburban moaners that won't want to lose their direct NR link...