Falklands War 2?

[JackSwan]

your 1000th post hasn't registered.

the forum is waiting for a british flag. *duly plants one*

[Manchester Planner]

Headquarters, Land Forces
Falkland Islands

INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER
I, the undersigned, Commander of all the Argentine land, sea and air forces in the Falkland Islands [Menéndez's signature, scribbled over the crossed-out word of "unconditional"] surrender to Major General J.J. MOORE CB OBE MC as representative of Her Britannic Majesty's Government.

Under the terms of this surrender all Argentine personnel in the Falkland Islands are to muster at assembly points which will be nominated by General Moore and hand over their arms, ammunition, and all other weapons and warlike equipment as directed by General Moore or appropriate British officers acting on his behalf.

Following the surrender all personnel of the Argentinian Forces will be treated with honour in accordance with the conditions set out in the Geneva Convention of 1949. They will obey any directions concerning movement and in connection with accommodation.

This surrender is to be effective from 2359 hours ZULU on 14 June (2059 hours local) and includes those Argentine Forces presently deployed in and around Port Stanley, those others on East Falkland, (Menendez's signature) West Falkland and all outlying islands.

[Menéndez's signature] Commander Argentine Forces
[Moore's signature] J. J. MOORE Major General
[Pennicott's signature] Witness
2359 hours 14 June 1982

[Remolino]

I said this:

They forced out the Scottish from Northern Scotland and sent them to Northern Ireland to try to make minorities of the Irish. And in the process depopulated Northern Scotland

Then you answered:

Originally Posted by crabstyx

Here is some proof. Remember, the victors write the history. So the truth will not be easy to find.

After the Union of the Crowns in 1603 under King James VI of Scotland and I of England, strenuous efforts were made to "civilise" the tribal parts of Britain and Ireland, as well as to commence overseas colonisation. James established a colony in North America (tellingly featured in Disney's surprisingly anti-colonial film, Pocohontas). He divided the Irish and Scots Gaels by the "plantation" of poor mainly Scots Protestants on indigenous Catholic land in Ulster - so setting in train 400 years of sectarian bitterness by wronging the indigenous Irish and wrongfooting the settlers. And in Scotland to force subjugation of the Highlanders, he kidnapped 12 of our most powerful chiefs after persuading them on board a ship, supposedly to hear a sermon by the Bishop of Argyll and the Isles.

These were taken away to the Scottish Lowlands and not released from jail until the following year, 1609, after they had agreed to go to our most sacred island and sign the Statutes of Iona. The statutes undermined Gaelic language and thus culture by requiring that the first son of any family with more than three-score cattle had to be educated in English. This meant going away to boarding school instead of learning clan tradition. It also restricted traditional hospitality and prevented patronage of the bardic poetic schools. Together with the later outlawing of tartan and the kilt, freedom of assembly and even the bagpipes in the Act of Proscription that followed the last battle on mainland British soil - Culloden in 1746 - these measures had a cultural neutron bomb effect. They destroyed the soul of indigenous society whilst leaving outward authority structures intact. In colonising minds, the way was cleared to colonise the land and to manipulate the people into tools of Empire building abroad.

From the second half of the 18th through the 19th century, between a quarter and half a million people were forced off their lands in Highland Scotland - some burnt out by fire or hounded with dogs - and dispatched to be factory fodder for the industrial revolution or on emigrant ships bound for settling the colonies. Improved strains of sheep and wool demand for the Napoleonic wars made it more profitable to ranch sheep than to keep tenants. Added to the fact that the now-Anglicised sons of the clan chiefs had developed metropolitan appetites for what money could buy including women, drink and gambling debts, the stage was now well set for the diaspora known as the "Highland Clearances" where whole villages were pushed off their land.

One of the many harrowing but corroborated accounts of this process is recorded in Alexander Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica from just over a century ago. Many of the people of the Hebridean island of North Uist had been "cleared" to make way for sheep. Catherine MacPhee described the process in words that, as she was probably well aware, have the prophetic resonance of a Micah or Isaiah:

Many a thing have I seen in my own day and generation. Many a thing, O Mary Mother of the black sorrow! I have seen the townships swept, and the big holdings being made of them, the people being driven out of the countryside to the streets of Glasgow and to the wilds of Canada, such of them as did not die of hunger and plague and smallpox while going across the ocean. I have seen the women putting the children in the carts which were being sent from Benbecula and the Iochdar to Loch Boisdale, while their husbands lay bound in the pen and were weeping beside them, without power to give them a helping hand, though the women themselves were crying aloud and their little children wailing like to break their hearts. I have seen the big strong men, the champions of the countryside, the stalwarts of the world, being bound on Loch Boisdale quay and cast into the ship as would be done to a batch of horses or cattle in the boat, the bailiffs and the ground officers and the constables and the policemen gathered behind them in pursuit of them. The God of life and He only knows all the loathsome work of men on that day

My own probable great great great great grandparents, Alexander McLennon and Mary McNeil, were probably cleared from Urray near Strathpeffer after the Balfour family racked up the rents to make way for sheep in 1792. In some families, old people alive today have heard eyewitness accounts of such atrocities. Because our skins were white, we became ready material for assimilation into the whole colonial enterprise of Empire building. Sucked into Highland regiments to escape destitution, or dispatched on emigrant ships to settle new worlds, our peoples became oppressors of other native peoples in colonising their lands. To such groups as Aboriginals and Native Americans today, we can but ask forgiveness and understanding, and seek mutual solidarity in restoring reverence towards the Earth and one another.

@Romanyo - Paraguay and Bolivia never belonged to Argentina. Argentina did control part of Paraguay for a while in 1870. But it took a five years war and three nations (Argentina, Empire of Brazil and Uruguay) to control Paraguay. Supposedly, the Triple Alliance thought it would take three months. And in the end Paraguay never surrendered. They had no one left to fight except small children and old people. The destruction is compared to being much worse then what happened to the most devastated nations in WW II.

[madjackmcmad]

Originally Posted by Remolino

I said this:

Then you answered:

Here is some proof. Remember, the victors write the history. So the truth will not be easy to find.

You're talking about the Highland clearances, and since I've relatives from there I'll know a damn sight more than you. If you think this was an England v Scotland thing you're extremely ignorant.

More like a lowland v highland scots thing after the Jacobites failed in overthrowing the government.

But lets not talk about 'disappearing people' though hey?

I don't know what you're trying to prove anyway. Britain is far from perfect and has plenty of skeletons in its cupboard. I don't see anyone denying that here - they're just showing up how hypocritical you are given what's in your own cupboard.

But then Hypocrisy is the name of the game in everything you Argentines say regarding the falklands, so why would you be any different?

[Pompey77]

Originally Posted by Manchester Planner

Headquarters, Land Forces
Falkland Islands

INSTRUMENT OF SURRENDER
I, the undersigned, Commander of all the Argentine land, sea and air forces in the Falkland Islands [Menéndez's signature, scribbled over the crossed-out word of "unconditional"] surrender to Major General J.J. MOORE CB OBE MC as representative of Her Britannic Majesty's Government.

Under the terms of this surrender all Argentine personnel in the Falkland Islands are to muster at assembly points which will be nominated by General Moore and hand over their arms, ammunition, and all other weapons and warlike equipment as directed by General Moore or appropriate British officers acting on his behalf.

Following the surrender all personnel of the Argentinian Forces will be treated with honour in accordance with the conditions set out in the Geneva Convention of 1949. They will obey any directions concerning movement and in connection with accommodation.

This surrender is to be effective from 2359 hours ZULU on 14 June (2059 hours local) and includes those Argentine Forces presently deployed in and around Port Stanley, those others on East Falkland, (Menendez's signature) West Falkland and all outlying islands.

[Menéndez's signature] Commander Argentine Forces
[Moore's signature] J. J. MOORE Major General
[Pennicott's signature] Witness
2359 hours 14 June 1982

Does this mean we have won?
(sings god save the queen, salutes the flag)
Brings a tear to the eye.

Now lock this thread before they mount another tin pot invasion.

[Remolino]

Originally Posted by madjackmcmad

You're talking about the Highland clearances, and since I've relatives from there I'll know a damn sight more than you. If you think this was an England v Scotland thing you're extremely ignorant.

More like a lowland v highland scots thing after the Jacobites failed in overthrowing the government.

But lets not talk about 'disappearing people' though hey?

I don't know what you're trying to prove anyway. Britain is far from perfect and has plenty of skeletons in its cupboard. I don't see anyone denying that here - they're just showing up how hypocritical you are given what's in your own cupboard.

But then Hypocrisy is the name of the game in everything you Argentines say regarding the falklands, so why would you be any different?

You cannot be that naive. The English controlled Scotland. This was done with there approval. And for arguments sake if the english did not give there approval they could have stopped it. Most of those ships were English that were taking the people over across to wherever. A Scottish person who is pro Independence informed me of that. I never knew.

And I am not Argentinian. And I do not have any problem with the UK.. You have spectacular rural areas. And your people seem very nice. But I have been told by some english who are from near your capital to watchout for the people in Cornwall.

[laizard]

Utter nonsense man....it is incredible how easy manipulable the british opinion is (the kelper mob knows how to profit from your insular naivity) we already have no more defense forces...everything is already dismantled...you can invade Argentina with a couple of police constables and will find no resistance.......

[laizard]

Originally Posted by crabstyx

Allegedly. So, assuming that was true as soon as the Falklands are 'handed back' to the Argentinians (hypothetically speaking of course), you'll be 'handing back' the other 30% of Argentina to the natives, I presume?

As it happens, it makes no difference. All the land belonged to the natives before, whether they were living on it or not and, had it not been for colonisation, they would own the mineral rights to all of the land, not just the 30% they lived on.

I would even have no problem in handing back 70% of the country if required by aboriginal people. There a re lots who think like that. The british landlords (estancieros) living in Patagonia differ quite much from this point of view...that I can assure!

[laizard]

Originally Posted by Capzilla

1000!

*waves Dutch flag*

*sticks out tongue to Argentinians.. our crown prince knocked up one of your girls.. not once.. twice, no, thrice!*

*ha ha*

Not quite very brilliant...think of the wallet that knocked Maxima, not the male attributes of your boring dutch-german royals...
PD: Keep waving your flag until the next WC, when you will have to stick it up your bottom parts....greetings form Mario (Kempes)!

[crabstyx]

Originally Posted by Remolino

I said this:

Then you answered:

Here is some proof. Remember, the victors write the history. So the truth will not be easy to find.

Please read your 'proof' again (by the way, you don't give a reference for this - anybody could have written it but we'll assume it's genuine). You will see that there is no mention in your 'proof' of people from 'Northern Scotland' being sent to Northern Ireland. This is because the Scots who went to Northern Ireland were Protestants from Lowland Scotland (not the North) - hence the

They were not forced to go there.

The people in Northern Scotland were largely Catholics. As your 'proof' suggests, most of these went to places like Canada (not Northern Ireland).

The clearances in Scotland were carried out by the Scottish landlords. It was their choice to do this - they weren't forced to do it by the English. The clearances were a business decision by landlords which copied what had already been done in England before (yes, English people were forced off the land too - so let's not get carried away with the idea that this was the English picking on the Scots).

[crabstyx]

Originally Posted by laizard

The british landlords (estancieros) living in Patagonia differ quite much from this point of view...that I can assure!

Oh, so the Spanish, the Italians, Germans and East European immigrants are 'Argentinian' but, when it suits you, the British are still just 'British'.

Originally Posted by laizard

I would even have no problem in handing back 70% of the country if required by aboriginal people. There a re lots who think like that.

So we can expect a big change sometime soon eh?

[madjackmcmad]

Originally Posted by Remolino

You cannot be that naive. The English controlled Scotland. This was done with there approval.

Yes it's called a Union. Together England & Scotland formed 'Great Britain' after Scotlands failed colonial adventure called the Darien project left the country bankrupt. It was a joining of two kingdoms not a takeover.

Lets not forget England & Scotland had invaded each other for centuries.

As you probably know, the current UK prime minister is Scottish as is at least half of the major positions in the government.

As for your friend he is obviously a scots nat, who wants independence. This is perfectly fine, after all we are a democracy. But he isn't in the majority.

Quite what this has to do with the Falklands I don't know.

[madjackmcmad]

Can I just say if i was a Falkland Islander, and some Argie wanted talks with me but insisted on calling me that kelper 'mob' i'd show them the middle finger too.

It's ironic seeing as its these people you should be trying to convince, not the British Govt.

Seeing as how you call them these things and you used their general PO as a toilet in 1982, is it any wonder they tell you to feck off?

[Salif]

We should hand the Falklands over to Argentina.

Before invading and colonising Argentina.

It's the ideal solution to this argument, the Argentines get the Falklands and so do we.

[Alfa-G]

Real colors for a real and justified cause...

[Salif]

Not good for your cause to have a drunken anti-semitic drink driver as it's poster boy.

[Alfa-G]

Originally Posted by Salif

We should hand the Falklands over to Argentina.

Before invading and colonising Argentina.

It's the ideal solution to this argument, the Argentines get the Falklands and so do we.

You didn't get it yet...

1806- british butts kicked (Siege of BA)
1807- british butts kicked (Invasion of BA, Occupation and Liberation)
1845- british butts kicked (Defeat of the Anglo-French Blockade, Admiral Brown greatest victory)

Try once more maybe you get lucky next time

[Salif]

You don't get it.

Falklands = British

Those 'victories' not done you much good

Maybe you get lucky and we let you have some soil from our nice little British outpost

[Alfa-G]

Bad day for the empire

Britain's invasion of Argentina 200 years ago became one of our least-remembered and most ignominious British failures.

[Antonio227]

Originally Posted by crabstyx

Oh, so the Spanish, the Italians, Germans and East European immigrants are 'Argentinian' but, when it suits you, the British are still just 'British'.

No, kid.

Dear lizard wanted to mean that, literally, much of the land which had been aboriginals´ terrain was given to British landlords (and in big quantities-called latifundios). In fact, Roca´s campaign was financed with the money that they had payed in advance.

Italian, Germans, East Europeans, Spaniards: they were very poor immigrants, who only had their workforce to offer, and started as small rural employees (mainly in lands north of the indian frontier), factory workers, and so. Not surprisingly, they originated the firsts unions, anarchists movements-Errico Malatesta lived here for some years-and, in general, they were the impulse behind social progress (British tended to be defenders of the status-quo).

Originally Posted by crabstyx

So we can expect a big change sometime soon eh?

There have been-and there is-already change, yes.

Sure, you aren´t going to know it by reading Wikipedia-much of it even doesn´t appear in the Internet-but there was a huge change in the perception of what was the Conquest of the Desert, the ideas about the aboriginals, their rights, etc. Lots of works made by anthropologists, archaeologists, sociologists allowed the remotion of nasty stereotypes, which in turn opened the path for social progress for the aboriginals. In the early seventies, the firsts indigenous of some ethnic groups reached banks in the Congress. Nowadays, that process is still active:

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/el...007-11-03.html

La etnia toba ya tiene su primer representante en una Legislatura

En las elecciones del domingo resultó electo Ricardo Mendoza para ocupar una banca en la Legislatura de Formosa. “Ahora vamos a tener voz y voto”, se entusiasma el primer legislador toba.

Of course, there is a lot of work to do, much more progress has to be made, a great number of situations still are imperfect, but the point is that there are concrete actions.

And the apologetic tone of the Conquest of the Desert started to die after World War II. Since then, people stopped seeing it as a hazard, and started to consider it genocide.
-----------------
By the way, I am interested in your opinion about a post in one of the articles posted:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...?commentpage=2

The British are not only reluctant to dwell on their defeats during their period of imperial aggression. They are also extremely reluctant to dwell on, or even to face, the massacres, engineered famines and other atrocities that they committed around the world. This denial, avoidance and deliberate amnesia allows the British to maintain the cultural attitudes that led to so much pain and horror, and thus to continue to act in the same way today, as they have done and are doing in Iraq.

Many, many millions of people, in nations around the world, died horribly, were horrifically hurt, and were forced into lives of pain and misery by British actions. And the legacy of what Britain did in destroying nations and in creating artificial ones in their place is still causing pain and horror today, from Africa to Northern Ireland to the Middle East.

Many British, in their effort to whitewash and avoid facing the crimes of their nation and their forefathers, try to pretend that “every country attacked others sometime back in the distance past”. But no country has brought as much nightmare to the the world as did Britain, and these crimes did not happen in the distance past. For example, there are men alive today who committed atrocities when trying to crush Kenya's resistance movement on behalf of Her Majesty and who have never been brought to trial or otherwise been made to account for their actions. Even today Britain illegally occupies a nation that posed it no threat, and nobody has been arrested or brought to account.

The German nation also visited nightmare upon the world. But, to their credit, Germans have faced the reality of what their nation did. The truth of the barbarity of Germany's past is taught in their schools, discussed in their newspapers, and dramatized in their cinema. And they are a much better and more peaceful people for it.

Britain, as a nation, MUST face the truth of the horror that it inflicted on so many people during its age of aggression. Only then can it possibly rid itself of the monstrous and barbaric attitudes that remain within its culture and that allow such crimes to continue today.

Hopefully Britain will face the nightmare of its heritage, present day Iraqis will be that nation's last victims, and the long, long nightmare of violent and aggressive arrogance will come to an end.