Why So Tough On The Rust Belt....

[hudkina]

You can also try the new 2010 Ford Taurus with the new SHO model, starting at $38,000, available this July
http://www.fordvehicles.com/2010taurus/

[ScraperDude]

Originally Posted by =dba=Ronin

Thats such a typical response as soon as most people hear the word, "Buick". Fact is, the new Buicks are being engineered by 20 to 30 somethings. Their goal (now adays and looking ahead) is to attract younger buyers. The problem is the stereotype that has been cast on Buick after decades of appealing to the older crowds and spewing out bland products. I encourage you to go to the following link and watch the videos (in particular for this point, the 2nd video) under the Video link:

http://www.buick.com/pages/mds/vehic...turelanding.do

I own a 97 Buick Regal GS with a supercharged 3.8. Just rolled over 150,000 miles a few weeks ago. The car was bought new by mother and I bought it from her about 6 years ago. Aside from normal maintanance and the hvac LED's going dark (which I was able to fix on my own), the thing is still running as good as new. I would definately buy a new Buick again given the opportunity particularly if they keep designing things like the '10 Lacrosse.

I like the design but once again a rediculous large grill on the front distracts from the beauty of the rest of the car.
So if buicks engineers are 20 and 30 something they need to fire who ever designs those stupid grills. Send em packing to Windsor casino..... or I can can hook em up with a job here in Columbus designing grills....
for White Castle

[hudkina]

I think the grille is one of its best features.

It's definitely a step up from the look of the first-generation LaCrosse:

[ScraperDude]

yea that's not too bad. it kinda looks like it's smiling of course with an Alfalfa antenna....

[hudkina]

That was the base trim-level for the 2005-2007 model year. (The CX) That is the Buick that J.D. Power ranked as the most reliable midsize car. It received a facelift for the 2008 model year with the new larger grille and the addition of the top-tier LaCrosse Super.




The second generation was designed to have a more youthful and sporty appearance while keeping the refined look that Buick is known for.


One major difference is the headlights, but you can also notice that the front end of the new version is shorter and beefier.

[=dba=Ronin]

It all comes down to what your perception and tastes are. Some think the grill is too big, I however, think it is bold. There are enough lines from the front back to not allow it to overtake the entire flow of the car. I'm guessing scrapper, that the 300m is just out-right never going to sit in your garage ...




nor a Rolls for that matter...

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by ScraperDude

The Cadillac CTS V is too expensive for me... I'm not Lil' Flip you know....

I know that the CTS-V is a bit high on the price scale, but I posted it in response to your earlier statement:

Originally Posted by ScraperDude

I think American auto makers still skimp because they want a price of as you were saying around $27,000.

The American brands offer cars with a range from $12,000 to $120,000. It all depends on what you are willing to pay for. The CTS-V is just one example of an American auto maker not skimping. The 2010 Ford Taurus SHO is going to be in the $40,000 range, with features and materials that you would hardly expect in a brand that is supposed to compete with Honda and Toyota. While the base-model LaCrosse will start around $27,000, the LaCrosse Super runs as high as $40,000.

Originally Posted by NaptownBoy

That's correct, when you consider the fact that Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura all make superior vehicles compared to Lincoln, Mercury, and Buick. (Cadillac is the best of its peers, IMO.)

I disagree. Lincoln and Buick are very competetive against the Asian luxury brands. And like I keep saying, Buick just topped Lexus as the most reliable brand in the U.S. Mercury is a slightly upscale version of Ford, and isn't really supposed to compete in the luxury market; the base Milan starts at just over $21,000 and tops out just over $30,000. As far as reliability and quality Lincoln, Mercury, Cadillac and Buick all rank just as high or higher than the Asian luxuries.

[Cincinnatus]

The bimmer comparisons are hilarious. No one buys a BMW because of its interior, they buy it because of the overall engineering and engine.

[hudkina]

They buy it because they think it imbues a sense of status.

[The anti-cheesehead]

Originally Posted by hudkina

They buy it because they think it imbues a sense of status.

Many buy for that reason.

And many buy BMWs because they truly are "drivers cars".

BMWs have been the gold standard as far as drivers cars are concerned for a long, long time.

All BMWs seem to have a perfect balance between handling and ride and all of them have always been rear wheel drive, the preferable layout for a drivers car. They all handle well. They all have great engines. They are very balanced. They've been this way for a long time.

BMW has never been known to be the most reliable, in fact, they don't have the best record in that area. If you want a cushy ride and reliability, you buy a Lexus. BMW has been known to be very satisfying to drive, even when Cadillacs and Lincolns were front wheel drive floaty couch grandpa-mobiles.

As far as the reliability talk, good job on the American automakers for improvement. I believe they really have improved even though I think some of the rankings are suspect, Jaguar ranking very well? Bullshit.

However, I think it was a Toyota exec that said this, reliability isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. And he's exactly right. Everyone knows Lexus, Toyota, Honda and Acura have excellent records for the last 20 years, the same can't be said for the American automakers. Are the new American vehicles really 300,000 mile cars? Who knows?

[hudkina]

Lexus and Acura didn't really start "out-classing" the domestic luxury brands until the late 90's, Infiniti has only been "there" for around five years. Lincoln and Cadillac lost their edge to the German brands in the late 80's and early 90's as the limousine fell out of favor for smaller, performance-oriented designs. By the late 90's Cadillac started getting its game together. It introduced the Catera, which was supposed to be the answer to the German luxury brands. It wasn't the hottest seller, but it was a decent car. The Catera's replacement, the CTS was introduced in 2002 with much more success (it helped that the Escalade had earlier stripped Cadillac of its "grandpa-mobile" status). Soon after the old Seville was replaced with the younger looking, rear-wheel drive STS. The XLR roadster also helped to transform Cadillac into a performance-oriented brand.

While Lincoln was late to the "new game", the new MKZ and MKS are very competetive against the foreign marks.

[The anti-cheesehead]

Originally Posted by hudkina

Lexus and Acura didn't really start "out-classing" the domestic luxury brands until the late 90's

LMAO, what a load of garbage. Lexus has outclassed the domestic brands since it's inception. Lexus never targeted Cadillac and Lincoln, it's target was the European brands. The domestics had nothing that even remotely approached the LS400 when it was introduced. Acura has never really been considered a true luxury marque because it never had a full size RWD V8 model, even though it's vehicles were/are better than Cadillac and Lincoln quality-wise.

Cadillac and Lincoln haven't been "there" since the early 80's. Cadillac severely tarnished it's image with the Cavalier based Cimmaron, Lincoln with the FWD Taurus based Continental and the geriatric Town Car wasn't competetive with the LS400 or anything from Europe.

[hudkina]

Cadillac has been "there" since the 2nd generation Escalade was introduced in early 2001. The CTS reinforced that status in 2002, followed by the XLR, SRX, and STS in 2004. Cadillac's line-up is very competetive and has been for the better part of a decade.

The DeVille and Continental were very competetive with the LS400, though I'll agree that the LS400 had a younger, sportier vibe. But if you honestly think Acura and Infiniti were class-leading in the early 90's, you're kidding yourself. Infiniti didn't become competetive until the G35 was introduced in 2003.

[The anti-cheesehead]

Originally Posted by hudkina

The DeVille and Continental were very competetive with the LS400

They absolutely were not. If you think they were, you're clearly not paying attention.

Originally Posted by hudkina

But if you honestly think Acura and Infiniti were class-leading in the early 90's, you're kidding yourself.

Seriously, you have a problem reading.

Where did I say that Acura and Infiniti were class leading? I specifically said that Acura has never been seen as a true luxury brand and I never mentioned Infiniti.

I was specifically talking about Lexus, more specifically, the LS series, which has totally outclassed anything from Cadillac and Lincoln up until recently. That is not debatable, at all. If you think it is, you are clueless.

Again, I was specifically talking about Lexus, and responding to your assertion that it didn't outclass the domestics until the late 90's which is so, so wrong. The LS400 was a game changer, a game that Cadillac and Lincoln weren't even playing in when the LS was introduced. The LS target was Benz, not Cadillac or Lincoln, which in the late 80s, early 90s, were washed up has-beens.

[Cincinnatus]

The best recent move of Ford, 2010 Fusion Hybrid:

[hudkina]

I'll agree that Lexus is the only luxury brand that has even remotely been able to compete with the "status" of BMW and Mercedes. The S-Class and 7 Series start out in the $80,000 to $90,000 range. Most of the rest of the fullsize Luxury sedans (Lincoln, Cadillac, Infiniti, Acura, Audi) start out in the $45,000-$50,000 range. The Lexus LS is the lone exception with a starting point around $65,000.

Granted, the LS is hardly Lexus' top seller. The "lowly" Lincoln Continental (and yes, it is over $15,000 less) sells just as well as the Lexus LS. The Cadillac DTS (which again, I'll give is $15,000 less than the LS) sold 50% more vehicles than the LS in 2008. (30,000 DTS vs. 20,000 LS.)

[The anti-cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

The best recent move of Ford, 2010 Fusion Hybrid:

Not only that, but the other Fusion models are awesome too. I love the V6 AWD sport model and especially the 6 speed manual 4 cyl model. Offering a 6 speed manual with the 4 cyl is just awesome. Ford is actually offering great choices for the enthusiast. When the ecoboost 4 cylinders come out, I'm looking at Fords.

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

Granted, the LS is hardly Lexus' top seller. The "lowly" Lincoln Continental (and yes, it is over $15,000 less) sells just as well as the Lexus LS. The Cadillac DTS (which again, I'll give is $15,000 less than the LS) sold 50% more vehicles than the LS in 2008. (30,000 DTS vs. 20,000 LS.)

The DTS and Continental aren't in the same league as the LS.

The Lexus LS is Lexus's S class or 7 series, a real RWD, full size luxury car.

[hudkina]

Apparently that doesn't matter, as they sell well enough as they are.

[The anti-cheesehead]

Originally Posted by hudkina

Apparently that doesn't matter, as they sell well enough as they are.

The topics of selling well and "out classing" (which is what you were originally talking about) are entirely different subjects.

Toyota sells more Camrys than Lexus sells LS460s. What does that mean? Nothing.

[hudkina]

Does Hyundai "out-class" Infiniti or Acura? The Genesis is definitely Hyundai's attempt to move to the luxury level, and maybe at some point it will be there, but it won't do it on the Genesis alone. If you ask anyone today who sells the best luxury cars in the U.S., I doubt if anyone will mention Hyundai. And I'm sure if you asked anyone in 1990 who made the best luxury cars in the U.S. few people would have mentioned Lexus. (I know that the Hyundai/Lexus comparison isn't ideal, but you get the point.) While BMW and Merecedes started edging the perennial favorites of Cadillac and Lincoln from their top spots in the 80's, Lexus was just starting out. There was no equity in the Lexus brand at that point. I'll admit that Lexus was able to build that equity faster than any company with the help of the LS as well as the famous quality/customer service, but it wasn't until the late 90's with the release of the later generations of ES and GS as well as the introduction of the IS and RX that Lexus became "known" as a luxury marque.

By that time the luster of Cadillac and Lincoln had faded to obscurity, and though they still made some decent cars, the large American limousine had fallen out of style. It was at this time that GM started to take Cadillac more seriously. They began work on their "Art & Science" movement, and in the meantime, brought the Catera over from Germany in an attempt to compete with the "new" breed of luxury cars. They also rebadged the Yukon Denali as the Escalade to draw on the growing popularity of luxury SUVs. By the mid 2000's Cadillac was a relevent brand again.

Lincoln, on the other hand, was stuck in "geriatric land" much longer. By the late 90's the Lincoln Continental and Mark series while decent cars were outdated. The Town Car, while a very popular car (especially in luxury fleets), wasn't turning anyone's head save for the 55 and older crowd. The Navigator put a little bit of new blood in the brand in the late 90's, and the LS helped to at least give the under 55 crowd a reason to look at a Lincoln, but it wasn't until recent years that Lincoln has tried to emulate the turn-around success of Cadillac. The MKZ helped to up the quality of Lincoln (especially on the interior) and the new MKS and MKX are following suit. The Town Car is still there serving its role, but at least Lincoln is becoming a relevent luxuxry brand again.

Chrysler, on the other hand can't even compete with Buick. While the Chrysler 300 is the best-selling full-size "luxury" sedan, it helps that the base model is only $28,000. The Sebring is a joke and there's no way in hell anyone would confuse the PT Cruiser or Town & Country for luxury vehicles. I'm not sure what Chrysler plans on doing with the Fiat technology, but they need to move Chrysler up market. They already announced the death of the PT Cruiser, but I think they also need to get rid of the Town & Country. They need to up the base-level of the 300, improve the quality and materials, and replace the Sebring with an actual mid-size luxury sedan. It wouldn't hurt to have a crossover and maybe a performance coupe.

While the new 200C concept was only introduced as a plug-in electric hybrid, let's hope that this is the car that replaced the Sebring (and soon.)