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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:55 AM   #61
Slagathor
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Originally Posted by hix View Post
It is not always clear what belongs to the city and what not. Administrative bounderies are not always clear on this. In the case of the randstadrail it is clear though that Den Haag is a different city. In the case of Spijkenisse it's also clear that it belongs to the Rotterdam Urban Region. The future line to Hoek van Holland is in that respect also a line within the urban region of Rotterdam and could be considered metro if it had no level crossings.
It's odd. I personally think the connection to Capelle a/d IJssel is definitely a metro even though Capelle is an independent gemeente while the Hoekse Lijn is more of an S-Bahn even though Hoek van Holland is not independent.

That's the problem with NL: we've had so many mergers of communities it doesn't make much sense anymore. Look at this map of The Hague, for instance:

Rijswijk and Voorburg are independent, but Leidschenveen-Ypenburg is not. Scheveningen has also been annexed by The Hague.

Meanwhile, there are countless tram connections to Rijswijk, but extremely few to Leidscheveen-Ypenburg (only Randstadrail at this point in time, as I recall. Possibly tram line 15 but I'm not sure).

So how where do you start defining what is what in terms of public transport? 'Luckily', the Hague doesn't have a metro but if it did, you'd be hard-pressed to properly define it. The map is a mess

This pretty much applies to Amsterdam and Rotterdam as well. They have annexed certain areas, but not others. Their maps are messy too, making any definition of what is and what is not a metro incredibly complicated.

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I invite you to come to Brussels, I will gladly give you a tour. In the meanwhyle check this site: http://http://metro-de-bruxelles.blogspot.com/
Ah excellent, thanks for the link! If I ever do go back to Brussels, I'll take you up on that offer


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You are absolutely right. These remarks by me and by Thermo where inappropriate. I appologize.
Accepted. You know, we're not as arrogant as many of the Flemings seem to think. Sometimes we're even quite nice

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And it's true, it's not always clear what is a metro, or what is a city BTW. In the case of Rotterdam, it can be argued that Rotterdam and The Hague are dubble cities, so close they are to each other.
Trouble is there are no clear borders anywhere in the Randstad. It's basically one metropolitan area.

A while ago someone on the forum tried to define metropolitan areas in the Netherlands by grouping bordering communities with a population density of > 1000 people/sqkm - he found he couldn't draw a border anywhere in the Randstad. That's how messed up it is. Yet counting the entire Randstad as one entity and grouping it together with New York or London would be very wrong as well, these are very different settlements and they don't compare no matter how much you fiddle with numbers.

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I think that when Randstadrail and Hoekse lijn are completely ready Rotterdam will have a super system. I would think it's more an S-bahn than a metro, but I think if I was a Rotterdammer, I would call it a metro too.

Just the thing I like most about it is the hybrid caracter of it. It integrates full metro, sneltram and 'S-Bahn' in one system. I think we should have something simular in Brussels.
I'm just sorry the Erasmus line doesn't go via Rotterdam Airport - it's still quicker for me (I live in the Hague) to go via Schiphol but I don't like that airport. Too big, chaotic.

Is the cooperation between the different communes in the Brussels region still troubled? Someone told me a while ago it's like having sand in your car's engine, making it difficult to create a comprehensive metro/lightrail/public transport system. That seems silly, it's such a giant metropolitan area, the largest in the Benelux that has some form of central government (the gewest) - it should be easier to unify it where public transport is concerned.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:09 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Is the cooperation between the different communes in the Brussels region still troubled? Someone told me a while ago it's like having sand in your car's engine, making it difficult to create a comprehensive metro/lightrail/public transport system. That seems silly, it's such a giant metropolitan area, the largest in the Benelux that has some form of central government (the gewest) - it should be easier to unify it where public transport is concerned.
In Brussels we have a regional gouverment with a president. The region is responsible for public transport, taxi's, regional roads, harbour (yes we have a harbour), cityplanning, watercleaning, waste disposal, preservation of old buildings, Firedepartment, and medical assistance (ambulances) , parks and naturepreservation, jobcreation...Also culture, devided in a French and Flemish part. I'm shure I forget quite some..
Over 5 years more function will be transferred from the communes to the region.
So don't worry, public transport is not a commune problem.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:20 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dezz View Post
That's not quite different. Most people who live in Capelle or Barendrecht originally come from Rotterdam. The funny thing is that, in %, more Rotterdammers live in Barendrecht then in Rotterdam
for those who feel that a planet and its satellites is identical to solely a planet you are totally right.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 01:36 PM   #64
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RandstadRail RandstadRail is a light rail connection between Rotterdam, Den Haag and Zoetermeer. Lightrail is a hybrid of tram, train and metro and the vehicles can run on both train and metro lines as well on the tram network. Since the vehicles are light, they accelerate much faster than their heavier counterparts and the stops at the stations are shorter. Travelling times with light rail are also shorter than those of other types of rail transport.
Seems like this discription is applicable for the "fast-trams" that run between The Hague and Zoetermeer.
The Metro's that will run Between Rotterdam and The Hague have the ability to operate on the complete subway-network of Rotterdam but NOT on the tram-network
The first randstadrail-metro's have already been deliverd and they also ride the tracks of the metro-network already.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 01:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by hix View Post
I would think it's more an S-bahn than a metro, but I think if I was a Rotterdammer, I would call it a metro too.
It's funny to see how many names are in use for some kind of urban rail transport: subway, metro, underground, tube, U-bahn, S-bahn, lightrail, sneltram, pre-metro.

The word "metro" is from chemin de fer métropolitain, which is french for metropolitan railroad. The British prefer the word "underground" or "tube" (but that word should only be used for the deeper level lines in London). The Americans call it "subway", while a subway is a pedestrian tunnel in the UK.

Maybe we can just call it an urban railsystem, as it would not exclude the sneltram-sections and former main line parts. Are there anyway plans to upgrade the sneltram-part in Rotterdam to a "full metro"? Else I don't understand why De Tochten-Nesselande is constructed as a full metro.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 01:58 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ArthurK View Post
It's funny to see how many names are in use for some kind of urban rail transport: subway, metro, underground, tube, U-bahn, S-bahn, lightrail, sneltram, pre-metro.

The word "metro" is from chemin de fer métropolitain, which is french for metropolitan railroad. The British prefer the word "underground" or "tube" (but that word should only be used for the deeper level lines in London). The Americans call it "subway", while a subway is a pedestrian tunnel in the UK.

Maybe we can just call it an urban railsystem, as it would not exclude the sneltram-sections and former main line parts. Are there anyway plans to upgrade the sneltram-part in Rotterdam to a "full metro"? Else I don't understand why De Tochten-Nesselande is constructed as a full metro.
It's not that weird, there are basically three-four groups.

1. Metro, subway, underground, u-bahn and tube are all synonyms. Metro actually comes from the Metropolitan railways, the very first tube line operator in London. The Paris metro was named after that. The not-so-deep tube lines in London are also just called the tube by most people by the way, although sometimes the distinction is made as sub-surface versus tube, because the former don't actually have the literal shape of a tube.
2. Pre-metro, lightrail, sneltram and for example Tvärbanan in Stockholm are not exactly synomyms, but all indicate the same type of systems that consist out of trams with their own right-of-way.
3. A third group is RER, S-Bahn, GEN in Brussels and Crossrail/Thameslink in London... all indicating express commuter railways running into and through the city centre. I don't think there are any of these in the Netherlands at all.
4. A fourth group would just be the regular Tram or Strassenbahn, mostly running on-street, such as in Amsterdam.
5. A fifth would be regular commuter railways with high frequency trains into the city.

I think those are five pretty clear groups, although there are obviously hybrids between the models.

Last edited by sweek; July 22nd, 2009 at 02:07 PM.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 02:02 PM   #67
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No double counting in 33.9 lenght for Calandlijn

I'm not so sure the 55 km length does any double counting.
Tussenwater - Marconiplein = 11.5 km ( Beneluxlijn project completed 2002 see http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beneluxlijn)
So if you take: 11.5 beneluxlijn + 8.5 sneltram + 10 km "double" = 30 km.
That would leave only 3.9 km for everything else on the calandlijn.
Marconiplein -Capelsebrug is already 9.6 km walking distance
see http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=d&sourc...89686&t=h&z=13
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 02:46 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
It's not that weird, there are basically three-four groups.

1. Metro, subway, underground, u-bahn and tube are all synonyms. Metro actually comes from the Metropolitan railways, the very first tube line operator in London. The Paris metro was named after that.
Indeed, the Metropolitan Railway in London was the first underground railroad in the world. But my English dictionary says the abbreviation "metro" is from French. Wikipedia has a similar story. But I guess it could start an Anglo-French war about who invented that abbreviation.

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Originally Posted by sweek View Post
The not-so-deep tube lines in London are also just called the tube by most people by the way, although sometimes the distinction is made as sub-surface versus tube, because the former don't actually have the literal shape of a tube.
2. Pre-metro, lightrail, sneltram and for example Tvärbanan in Stockholm are not exactly synomyms, but all indicate the same type of systems that consist out of trams with their own right-of-way.
3. A third group is RER, S-Bahn, GEN in Brussels and Crossrail/Thameslink in London... all indicating express commuter railways running into and through the city centre. I don't think there are any of these in the Netherlands at all.
4. A fourth group would just be the regular Tram or Strassenbahn, mostly running on-street, such as in Amsterdam.
5. A fifth would be regular commuter railways with high frequency trains into the city.

I think those are five pretty clear groups, although there are obviously hybrids between the models.
The future Randstadrail Erasmus Line service from The Hague Central to Rotterdam Slinge might fit in the third group. It's an old railroad between The Hague and the boundary of Rotterdam, but runs like a full metro through the city center. Same applies to the future Caland Line extension to Hoek van Holland.
The Spijkenisse-Schiedam-Capelle a/d IJssel and Spijkenisse-Slinge-Central Station services belong to the first group. But Capelsebrug - Ommoord/ De Tochten is the second group. The last part, De Tochten-Nesselande, is again a real metro, so that's the first group. So in Rotterdam, there is an mixture of three groups.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 02:58 PM   #69
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Indeed, the Metropolitan Railway in London was the first underground railroad in the world. But my English dictionary says the abbreviation "metro" is from French. Wikipedia has a similar story. But I guess it could start an Anglo-French war about who invented that abbreviation.
Ah I guess so. Don't worry I don't want to start an Anglo-French war about this.

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The future Randstadrail Erasmus Line service from The Hague Central to Rotterdam Slinge might fit in the third group. It's an old railroad between The Hague and the boundary of Rotterdam, but runs like a full metro through the city center. Same applies to the future Caland Line extension to Hoek van Holland.
It doesn't really go through the centre as such, though, does it? The RER, Thameslink, Crossrail and S-Bahn in Germany go pretty far out on both sides of the city centre... Randstadrail to The Hague obviously goes far out on the Northern end, but ends in Rotterdam itself... If they actually connected both projects and ran from The Hague through Rotterdam to Hoek Van Holland that'd clearly be like an RER...

How far along are the works on connecting the metro bit with the Randstadrail bit anyway now?
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 03:40 PM   #70
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How far along are the works on connecting the metro bit with the Randstadrail bit anyway now?
The tunnel itself is finished. Not sure about the tracks inside it.

from RET site:http://www.ret.nl/over-ret/organisat...spx?sc_lang=en
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In mid 2009, the first test- and trial runs will begin. By the end of 2009, our passengers will be able to travel directly from Rotterdam Centraal station to the centre of Den Haag. And from 2010 onwards, it will also be possible to travel uninterrupted (without changing) from metro station Slinge to Den Haag Centraal.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 03:47 PM   #71
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If they actually connected both projects and ran from The Hague through Rotterdam to Hoek Van Holland that'd clearly be like an RER...
That particular setup wouldn't be the most useful though, Den Haag en Hoek van Holland are about 10km apart from each other while the detour through Rotterdam would be at least 20km on each leg of this U-shaped line.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 04:06 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by sweek View Post
It doesn't really go through the centre as such, though, does it?

The RER, Thameslink, Crossrail and S-Bahn in Germany go pretty far out on both sides of the city centre... Randstadrail to The Hague obviously goes far out on the Northern end, but ends in Rotterdam itself... If they actually connected both projects and ran from The Hague through Rotterdam to Hoek Van Holland that'd clearly be like an RER...

How far along are the works on connecting the metro bit with the Randstadrail bit anyway now?
As was mentioned before: the tunnel link under Centraal Station is as good as finished. 2010 should signal the start of services from The Hague Central Station to Slinge (possibly onwards to Spijkenisse but that's not really relevant for this discussion considering Slinge is already well South of Rotterdam's Central District).

The RandstadRail Erasmus line (it bears the same name as the current Rotterdam metro Erasmus line for a reason) will run right through the center of Rotterdam.

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Old July 22nd, 2009, 05:13 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
As was mentioned before: the tunnel link under Centraal Station is as good as finished. 2010 should signal the start of services from The Hague Central Station to Slinge (possibly onwards to Spijkenisse but that's not really relevant for this discussion considering Slinge is already well South of Rotterdam's Central District).

The RandstadRail Erasmus line (it bears the same name as the current Rotterdam metro Erasmus line for a reason) will run right through the center of Rotterdam.

Yes but trains from The Hague won't run further than Slinge along the Erasmusline. For it to be an RER I think it'd have to go way beyong to, say, Dordrecht.

The idea behind Crossrail/RER etc. is that instead of having commuter lines terminate in the city centre, you hook them up with each other via a central tunnel, reducing the number of interchanges needed. It's a bit different in R'dam.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 09:14 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nieuwe Waas View Post
Het stuk Spijkenisse-Tussenwater is zowel Caland- als Erasmuslijn.
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Originally Posted by Tramfan View Post
Dat zou misschien kunnen, maar we hebben het dan over een afstand van 9,2 km (die twee keer gerekend wordt.... 55,3 km - 37km = 18,3km : 2 = 9,2km

Dus bij die 37km komt zeker 1x 9,2km, dus totaal 46,2km, dus groter dan Brussel.....


Ik betwijfel overigens ook dat de afstand tussen Tussenwater en Spijkenisse 9,2 km is.....
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:13 PM   #75
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Yes but trains from The Hague won't run further than Slinge along the Erasmusline. For it to be an RER I think it'd have to go way beyond to, say, Dordrecht.

The idea behind Crossrail/RER etc. is that instead of having commuter lines terminate in the city centre, you hook them up with each other via a central tunnel, reducing the number of interchanges needed. It's a bit different in R'dam.
The Hague - Dordrecht railway actually runs through a tunnel in R'dam. The tunnel starts a bit after Centraal Station (map) via the underground Blaak Station (transfer station with the crossing Metro Calandlijn),goes under the river and the tracks come above ground again at Rotterdam Zuid Station (map). This tunnel is 2796 meters with 4 tracks and was finished September 1993. Before this tunnel trains were running on elevated tracks.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:08 PM   #76
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We should not forget the Stedenbaan project that will also connect The Hague and Rotterdam via the existing heavy rail line via Delft that will look much more like a RER system then the RandstadRail does.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 11:16 AM   #77
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I went to Google Earth, measured (roughly) the length between each subway station and got the following;

Calandlijn (De Akkers - De Terp) = 29,8km
Erasmuslijn (Tussenwater - Centraal Station) = 14,54km

Together this is 44,34km long. This was without the shared part of both lines and without the line towards Nesselande and Binnenhof.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 12:34 PM   #78
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Together this is 44,34km long.
And only 36 stations. But If you numbers are correct, than I admid that the Rotterdam metro is the longest. But the Brussels metro has 59 metrostations and 15 premetro stations. So we have something too.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:08 PM   #79
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Silly nitpicking. An extra kilometer here, a few extra meters here. Let's not go there. Again. Come on, people, we all have to live together in a tiny Benelux and constantly trying to show each other off isn't gonna make it any more pleasant!
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:32 PM   #80
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Yes, my numbers are correct. You can do it yourself if you don't believe it, it took me quite a while

41 stations btw And 1 u/c.

10 stations on the Erasmusline (without the shared part and without Beurs)
27 stations on the Calandlijn (with the shared part and with Beurs)
12 stations on the extra part of the Calandlijn towards Nesselande & Binnenhof, this is a Lighrail track though
- 1 station (Nesselande) on that extra line is a metro station (27+10+1 = 38)
1 station u/c on the Erasmusline (Blijdorp/Statenweg)
4 stations on the Randstadrail/Erasmusline that are located in Rotterdam (Hofplein/Melanchtorweg/Wilgenplas/Rodenrijs)

So that is 38+3 = 41 (and 1 u/c)

Look at the following map;



You can see that the line matches the metro criteria at station Nesselande, the other parts are lightrail, but that is metro line.

At this map you can also see that station Nesselande is a real subway station so it should also be counted as one



In 2010 when the station Statenweg is finished station Hofplein will be closed, so it will have 41 station eventually. Then we have to wait untill 2012. In 2012 the Hoekse Lijn will be added to the network (shared Lighrail/Metro line). This line is 24km long. Then the network will be approx. 68km long. The Hoekse line now has 11 stations (if I'm right). There will come about 3 or 4 new stations on this line. The network will have about 56 stations then.
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Last edited by xlchris; July 23rd, 2009 at 01:50 PM.
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