Manifestation des non-jeûneurs de ramadan au Maroc.

[reda2casa]

Originally Posted by Maghrebin

fier ! c'est bien : on l'est tous !
si un avocat défend un criminel : est ce que ça veut dire que l'avocat défend l'acte que le "brigand" a commis ?!
Non ! je ne pense pas ,il cherche juste à l'aider ...
C'est pareil si certains musulmans défendent des non-musulmans , ça ne veut pas dire que les musulmans sont "devenus" athées ou d'une autre religion ...

On défend juste la LIBERTÉ DE CULTE et non la LAÏCITÉ c'est 2 expressions DIFFÉRENTES !

Si on était tous fiers.... on aurait pas ces pseudos musulmans (que je n'appelle pas de vrais musulmans) qui daigneraient offenser leur frères dans leur propre foi pour plaire aux autres laïques (occidentaux) qui se foutent de la religion (dans une nation)

Je suis tout a fait d'accord avec toi quand tu dis que la laïcité diffère de la liberté de culte, mais ceux qui lèvent la voix actuellement sont des courants pro-laïcité ni plus ni moins.

Car la liberté de culte, l'islam la garantie d'emblée, Et le Maroc est un exemple aux autres pays du monde (il n'y a qu'à voir comment vivent les chrétiens, juifs en harmonie parmi les musulmans)
Et on ne trouvera pas meilleure liberté que celle accordée par l'islam. Dieu Merci

[MoroccanChica]

Double post

[MoroccanChica]

Originally Posted by reda2casa

Hope you'll finaly understand that we are not laic in Morocco, where religion is just a matter of 'individual freedom' nothing more.

What is religion then if it's not a matter of individual freedom? Religion is about believing in something. You can't force a belief system on someone nor should you try.

Originally Posted by Maghrebin

L'Allemagne est un pays religieux non-laïc , les gays sont pourtant libres
Si c'est pour devenir comme la France là ou avoir un prénom "suspect" ou un petit voile qui recouvre des cheveux est interdit alors là non pas la peine ... La France est pour moi une dictature

France isn't the only model for secularism. The US is a good one in my opinion because the first amendment guarantees the government wouldn't enforce any religion nor prohibit a religion's practice. As you might guess religion is important in the US but not to the point where minorities are discriminated against.

[Tomb Raider]

Bien sûr que la France n'est pas un bon exemple de démocratie, non seulement ça, mais Sarko domine sur tous les secteurs et gère les choses comme ça l'enchante.

J'ai toujours trouvé cette carte interessante

Pays le moins démocratique : Corée Du Nord
Pays le plus démocratique : La Suède

[mista_a.b]

Originally Posted by reda2casa

Si on était tous fiers.... on aurait pas ces pseudos musulmans (que je n'appelle pas de vrais musulmans) qui daigneraient offenser leur frères dans leur propre foi pour plaire aux autres laïques (occidentaux) qui se foutent de la religion (dans une nation)

Je suis tout a fait d'accord avec toi quand tu dis que la laïcité diffère de la liberté de culte, mais ceux qui lèvent la voix actuellement sont des courants pro-laïcité ni plus ni moins.

First off, you don't have the right to label people as non-muslims just because they don't agree with you. Only Allah SWT has the right to make that judgement.

Car la liberté de culte, l'islam la garantie d'emblée, Et le Maroc est un exemple aux autres pays du monde (il n'y a qu'à voir comment vivent les chrétiens, juifs en harmonie parmi les musulmans)
Et on ne trouvera pas meilleure liberté que celle accordée par l'islam. Dieu Merci

That is wrong, christians in morocco have to live in fear of being discovered and sent to jail.

[reda2casa]

What is religion then if it's not a matter of individual freedom? Religion is about believing in something. You can't force a belief system on someone nor should you try.

Im' gonna repeat myself, this is what i've already said:


An islamic country (not laic) that even though garantees the freedom of religion (jewish, christianity...etc), he's attaching to not offense the musulmans believers in their faith.
Hope you'll finaly understand that we are not laic in Morocco, where religion is just a matter of 'individual freedom' nothing more.

which means, that i admit that religion is an individual freedom (you see the "just" used)

And in addition, in a religious conutry ( The islamic Morocco for instance) the religous freedom take a collectiv form that make obligation of every people living it to respect ISLAM and its Believers in their faith.

you wanna be a gay, ok... you wanna break the fast, okbut dont show it up publicy! we're not laic, Morocco is an islamic state which cares about the faith of its believers.

the same goes on "evangelism". The stat cares about the faith of it believers
Is it clear ?

[Tomb Raider]

But the problem is not here, the thing is that if only they surprise you eating discreetly or only being gay, they can arrest you, that's a disrespect, people's private live must be respected !

However, I totally agree with you concerning the provocations, a mutual respect would be required

[reda2casa]

Originally Posted by mista_a.b

First off, you don't have the right to label people as non-muslims just because they don't agree with you. Only Allah SWT has the right to make that judgement.

You're right.
Except here is what i said "pseudos-musulmans" which means "not real musulmans" or "not good ones". They remains musulmans it's not contradictory.
And if you you put it in the context i used, it's understandable, here is the whole phrase:

on aurait pas ces pseudos musulmans (que je n'appelle pas de vrais musulmans) qui daigneraient offenser leur frères dans leur propre foi pour plaire aux autres laïques (occidentaux) qui se foutent de la religion (dans une nation)

Those accept to offense their borthers in religion (musulmans), so they can make profit of gratitude and other personnal matters and stuff from the others.

Originally Posted by mista_a.b

That is wrong, christians in morocco have to live in fear of being discovered and sent to jail.

Not true. In front of justice, they have all their rights.

The majority live happy their religion in Morocoo, if you dont (didn't?) or someone you know doesn't (didn't), is just an exception.

Originally Posted by Tomb Raider

But the problem is not here, the thing is that if only they surprise you eating discreetly or only being gay, they can arrest you, that's a disrespect, people's private live must be respected !

Indeed, That will be a problem if they cross the redline of the individual freedom of "private" and "discret" breking of fast.

That's not the case in Marocoo, fortunatly, because there is firstly other people from other religons who eat publicly without problems.
and in the other hand, there is expection fro many muslims people who break the fast, for a health matter or other staff.

anyway, there is a lot of places( restaurants, fast foods) where people can eat in ramdan.

The big issue not admissible is making a "group" and claiming the break of fast in front of the public. It offense, not tolerate and claims the hatefulness.

Originally Posted by Tomb Raider

However, I totally agree with you concerning the provocations, a mutual respect would be required

God bless you. That's the tolerance we've learnt from islam.

[Tomb Raider]

Originally Posted by reda2casa

Indeed, That will be a problem if they cross the redline of the individual freedom of "private" and "discret" breking of fast.

That's not the case in Marocoo, fortunatly, because there is firstly other people from other religons who eat publicly without problems.
and in the other hand, there is expection fro many muslims people who break the fast, for a health matter or other staff.

anyway, there is a lot of places( restaurants, fast foods) where people can eat in ramdan.

Yeah, they also inspect restaurants and condemn muslims who don't fast there, once again it's their problem...

Originally Posted by reda2casa

The big issue not admissible is making a "group" and claiming the break of fast in front of the public. It offense, not tolerate and claims the hatefulness.

God bless you. That's the tolerance we've learnt from islam.

I agree, that is some "tbarhiche" which means "Go to hell, you fasters !" , they could have protested peacefully with boards and stuff without harming anyone...

[DepressedAli]

Originally Posted by MoroccanChica

France isn't the only model for secularism. The US is a good one in my opinion because the first amendment guarantees the government wouldn't enforce any religion nor prohibit a religion's practice. As you might guess religion is important in the US but not to the point where minorities are discriminated against.

"In god we trust" begs to differ

[DepressedAli]

Originally Posted by Tomb Raider

But the problem is not here, the thing is that if only they surprise you eating discreetly or only being gay, they can arrest you, that's a disrespect, people's private live must be respected !

However, I totally agree with you concerning the provocations, a mutual respect would be required

I have never heard of a single case where non-fasting people were arrested. Poeple do not eat in public not because it is illegal, but because it is a social and cultural taboo, much like french-kissing in public .

[moroccan_che]

Originally Posted by mista_a.b

So if someone does not agree with you, you should just burn him? How will that make him a better muslim?

peolple who believe in the western definition of humain rights and think they have the right to provocate muslims should be burned
go ahead and tell me how because i didnt say that burning someone makes me a better muslim

[Superanouar]

L'UC dénonce la tentative de rupture publique du jeûne à Mohammedia


L'Union Constitutionnelle (UC) a dénoncé la tentative avortée de rupture publique du jeûne, initiée dimanche à Mohammedia par un groupe de personnes pour revendiquer l'abrogation de l'article 222 du Code pénal, soulignant que cette tentative constitue "une atteinte aux sentiments religieux de l'ensemble des citoyens marocains".

"La protection des libertés individuelles passe d'abord par la conception de la liberté en tant que facteur de cohabitation, d'entente et de coexistence, et non en tant que moyen de confrontation et d'atteinte à la liberté et aux sentiments d'autrui", souligne le Secrétariat Général de l'UC dans un communiqué parvenu mercredi à la MAP.

Le parti a appelé ainsi à traiter de ce phénomène de manière à préserver le véritable sens et la noblesse des libertés individuelles et collectives ainsi que les conditions optimales pour la mise en oeuvre du projet sociétal moderniste prôné par SM le Roi en tant que cadre du développement du Maroc.


Source : Biladi Maroc

Autant cette prise de position est compréhensible au vu de la ligne politique de l'UC, autant le silence de partis comme l'USFP ou même le PPS qui se veulent à la pointe du combat pour les libertés civiles est passablement assourdissant

[wonderXman]

Originally Posted by moroccan_che

peolple who believe in the western definition of humain rights and think they have the right to provocate muslims should be burned
go ahead and tell me how because i didnt say that burning someone makes me a better muslim

Basically saying that Muslims are savages because they believe to burn people for provocation, is provocative and insulting! what a comedy lol

Maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror for once! oh forgot it's harram perhaps for the too angry like you wow! :P You re a living insult to islam yourself! so based on your mentality, burn yourself!

the same goes on "evangelism". The stat cares about the faith of it believers
Is it clear ?

I find it funny when the best logic a conservative comes up with is the logic of:
wrong + wrong = right
nice.

Basically reflecting these people's ignorance to themselves and giving them a reality check is an insult. Hence they are an insult (which is true) Well everything is an insult. Talk about delusion and the egomaniac supehero king of the world hypocritical uber-sensitive migit :P

[D K]

Bof...oui à la laicité, mais je ne peux m'empêcher de désavouer ce genre de manifestations, car malheureusement, et comme à l'accoutumée chez nous, on ne fait que mimer l'occident, tout le temps, tout le temps, y compris sur les problèmes de société qu'il vit chez lui (épisode de Ni putes ni soumises).
Des intellectuels (francophones et arabophones) qui se seraient réunis, qui auraient réfléchi à des questions intéressantes (comme: peut-on aujourd'hui être marocain -pas sur les papiers seulement, mais au plus profond de sa culture- sans se sentir concerné par une religion? Quelle est l'articulation entre les 2?) dénoterait une certaine maturité au sein de notre société. Mais des opérations de ce genre ne font que donner du grain à moudre aux "anti-Tel Quel" et autres Nini (qui ne dit pas que des bêtises, loin de là, mais je ne partage pas ses positions islamisantes), qui vont se lâcher sur les "francophones", les "gens de la mission" et autres bourgeois acculturés...Bref, un non événement en somme.

[akilis]

mais c marrant
de quel courage parler vous
s il etaient courageux ils auraient du protester contre l injustice qui regnent au pays
autre chose vous parlez de liberté individuelle mais s il avaient transgresser le ramadan dans leurs maisons personnes ne leur aurait dis quoi que ce soit
vous etes content d une dizaine de personnes incultes et vous ne regardez pas les centaines de miliers qui vont aux tarawih chaque nuits ds les differentes villes du maroc
entre temps vous pouvez visioner ces deux videos

http://www.facebook.com/video/video....7563846&ref=mf

http://www.facebook.com/video/video....2239965&ref=mf

[CasaMor]

Ce thread est d'une lourdeuuur! pffff

[Desertlife]

Morocco is not a western country..it is an islamic country which has its own traditions and values not similar to those in the west..try to get this in your hard skulls and stop having this inferiority complex in regard to the west to the point that you want to monkey them in every aspect of life while destructing our own identity . Democracy is not necessarily a democracy that is imported from the west with their own limits. Tolerance has its limits.
Look at france..don t tell me it s not a good example..does it tolerate niqab ? No. even though it is considered as of the most tolerant countries on the planet.

We don t have a christian culture and traditions so we can not take them as a model , otherwise we ll end up looking like caricatures of western people .
Yes, we should encourage RESPONSIBLE individual freedoms and democracy but with respect to our religion,traditions and values...otherwise,Morocco will be jurasik park.

[reda2casa]

Originally Posted by Desertlife

Morocco is not a western country..it is an islamic country which has its own traditions and values not similar to those in the west..try to get this in your hard skulls and stop having this inferiority complex in regard to the west to the point that you want to monkey them in every aspect of life while destructing our own identity . Democracy is not necessarily a democracy that is imported from the west with their own limits. Tolerance has its limits.
Look at france..don t tell me it s not a good example..does it tolerate niqab ? No. even though it is considered as of the most tolerant countries on the planet.

We don t have a christian culture and traditions so we can not take them as a model , otherwise we ll end up looking like caricatures of western people .
Yes, we should encourage RESPONSIBLE individual freedoms and democracy but with respect to our religion,traditions and values...otherwise,Morocco will be jurasik park.

Well sir.
Moroccans generally agree with you, except that there are exceptions, very few ones, that not respect neither islam nor muslims, and suffring from islamophobia... (wonderXx is an exemple)

[wonderXman]

Originally Posted by Desertlife

Morocco is not a western country..it is an islamic country which has its own traditions and values not similar to those in the west..try to get this in your hard skulls and stop having this inferiority complex in regard to the west to the point that you want to monkey them in every aspect of life while destructing our own identity . Democracy is not necessarily a democracy that is imported from the west with their own limits. Tolerance has its limits.
Look at france..don t tell me it s not a good example..does it tolerate niqab ? No. even though it is considered as of the most tolerant countries on the planet.

We don t have a christian culture and traditions so we can not take them as a model , otherwise we ll end up looking like caricatures of western people .
Yes, we should encourage RESPONSIBLE individual freedoms and democracy but with respect to our religion,traditions and values...otherwise,Morocco will be jurasik park.

wrong + wrong = right


It's not about Western V.S. Eastern like islamist like to market under the umbrella of the evil zionist west to tarnish!

- it's about what logic V.S. beleifs
- it's about Modernism V.S. Ancient traditions (Takaleed = comes from word imitate )
- it's about Freedom V.S. Dictatorship
- it's about Rights V.S. Crushing these right by nazist propaganada & mentality of majority rules, forces. & crushes.
- it's about Diversity V.S. Cloning (by value and photocopy of an ideal person) more like a virus

Trying to twist things by labels of west and east, Evil & Retarded Christians and Jews V.S. civilized santa clause pure self-righteous Muslims and whatever only make the ones defending such view look like: those Christians from the dark ages where they refused to shower because it was a Muslim tradition to shower

Exact same mentality!

What's right is right don't need to be twisted in Pathos & victimization & superiority-complex with an infinite inferiority reality check.