Time to Abolish the Benefit Culture?

[ill tonkso]

I work part time to get myself through uni so I can get a good job at the end of it and I struggle whilst other people in my city sit on their arses all day. I walk past them sat outside their flats on the way to class or work and it drives me mad.

We had one lady come into our store, bragging about how she was earning x much on benefits and my colleague who served her, a full time employee was actually (after tax) worse off every month. Yet this woman was perfectly fit and able to come out shopping.

[larven]

It seems most people have a nasty little story to tell about someone they know or know of abusing the benefits system.

I myself have several sorry tales to tell and have tried to do something about it. I would advise anyone else who knows of these thieves to do likewise via the information contained in the link below.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTax...ud/DG_10014876

If we want to roll back the benefit culture then we need to abolish New Labour. A government that disincentivises people to get off their arse and work whilst rewarding idleness, bad behaviour and irresponsibility.

On these counts alone it is worthy of utter contempt and detestation from anyone who is trying to be a good person and make something of themselves under difficult circumstances.

[potto]

but isnt it like the death penalty? You will never actually really know who should really get the money and who shouldnt. Especially in a world when the same people moaning about the problem also get hysterical when authorities try to discover a small fragment of the truth. I bet know one has informed the authorities on the people they are so shocked about walking about blazingly showing their wads of cash (or cheque)? You know there is actually a system in place to check up on claims! Also is it really about money and more about the desire to be better than everyone else? You personally probably paid 0.00001p towards that persons lifestyle. Im currently reading Down and out in Paris and London. Sounds like a far far worse world then, I think we got something right.

[larven]

'A culture of worklessness has become rife in pockets of Brown's Britain'
Theresa May, Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary


http://perspicacious.co.uk/all-the-n...ant-one/17427/

Eight million have no job (and don't even want one)

By Becky Barrow
Last updated at 8:35 AM on 12th November 2009

The number of people who do not have a job - and are not bothering to look for one - has soared to its highest since records began in 1971.

A record 7.9million - one in five people of working age - are ' economically inactive'.

That is more than the entire population of Greater London.

Tories called the figures from the Office for National Statistics ' shocking' and said they exposed an ' alarming trend'.

Theresa May, Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, said: 'A culture of worklessness has become rife in pockets of Brown's Britain.

'It is shocking that one in five people of working age is economically inactive and that five million people have never worked under this government.'

'Labour's decision to duck the real challenge of welfare reform over the past decade has fuelled this alarming trend.'

There are seven groups of economic inactivity - students, looking after family/home, temporary sick, long-term sick, discouraged, retired or 'other.'
While some people are legitimately out of the jobs market, such as mothers looking after young children, many are not.

Nearly 75,000 people are ' discouraged' workers, which means they are not looking for a job because they do not believe one is available.

More than two million are classed as 'long-term sick', even though they may actually be fit to work. Some 2.6million claim Incapacity Benefit and its replacement Employment and Support Allowance at a cost of more than £12billion a year.

Experts say many of the inactive are simply swindling the State out of millions in benefits.

There has been a recession-driven boom in benefit fraud, with the amount of money paid to cheats up £300million last year.

The figures show that 4.8million people of working age live in a home where no one holds down a job.

They have been dubbed the 'Shameless' generation of benefit addicts.

The ONS also revealed that unemployment is still rising, although at a significantly slower pace than in recent months. The jobless total rose 30,000 between July and September to 2.46million, the smallest increase for 18 months, and only a fraction of the rise of 250,000 in the spring.

The number of people claiming Jobseeker's Allowance rose by 12,900 to 1.64million, the highest since Labour came to power in 1997.

Ministers trumpeted a rise in the numbers in work, but experts said the overall picture was far from rosy. An increasing proportion of jobs are parttime, and usually lower-paid with fewer perks and little job security.

The ONS said women are being hit far harder than men by job losses. During the quarter, 75,000 women lost full-time jobs, compared to 41,000 men.

Ian Brinkley, associate director of The Work Foundation, said: 'For many, especially the young and those in the private sector, there are still many months of job losses and insecurity to come.'

The new figures also confirmed fears about a crisis among young people, with nearly a million between 16 and 24 unemployed.

It is a record rate of 19.8 per cent, though the figure includes some 250,000 students who count as unemployed if they look for part-time work.

LibDem spokesman Steve Webb said: 'It is a national disgrace that one in five 16 to 24 year-olds are now unemployed.

'We cannot afford to write off a whole generation in this way.

'For months young people have heard promises from the Government of jobs that will not materialise until next year at the earliest - which will be too late.'

[potto]

A strange report that, starts off alarmingly about being drowned in a sea of people not bothering to work and then descends into lots of quotes about unemployment. Surely completely different subjects. Perhaps they didnt really have much to say about their people not bothering to work headline. Excellent scope for throwing figures about without much soul searching. Slightly tedious. Again all Ive heard is people getting hot under the collar about someone else not working. Isnt leisure the consumerist nirvana?

[Octoman]

I dont see how we can justify anybody living off the graft of other people and contributing nothing back. If they are able to support themselves it simply cannot be justified under any circumstances other than as a temporary crutch.

The argument that a civilised society supports its needy is a fair one. And so we should. But nowhere does it say that the needy include lazy layabouts who 'just dont fancy working' get to scrounge off others. Of course we have an obligation to these people too, but only in ensuring the framework is in place for them to find a productive role for themselves. If they want to throw that back in our faces thats their perogative. But at the same time its my perogative to wash my hands of them.

[potto]

but we've just outlined the mechanism for reporting such people. Im sure the tabloids do the same everytime they uncover them too. So we decide we need a welfare system we have methods to avoid scam artists (do people really believe that the DSS likes handing out money?!). So what next? Rather than pathetically turning it into political point scoring exercise of headlines and mixed messages I think the real soul searching will take us to some very dark places.

[Octoman]

They will never be totally cut loose Potto. I have written to my local council before to complain about all the scumbags milling around their front gardens in a neaby housing estate. They are there all day long with cans of beer in their hands or their yobby kids who should be in school terrorising the surrounding neighbourhoods. I get a polite reply explaining that every step possible is being taken to return these families to work or asking me to make a specific complaint about a specific family (all of them from what I can make out). After which my identity would be made known to them in order they get a fair opportunity to defend themselves.

And just say I did pull it off and get a load of photos of incapacity claimants carrying around bits of cars that seem to constantly litter their neighbourhood and it was proved beyond a doubt they were scamming. Would they be kicked out of their homes, have 100% of their benefits removed and given the choice of work or starve? Of course not, some do gooder would just put them on some form of career course, let them keep their payments and the whole thing would continue.

And I would get beaten up.

[clarky]

My proposal would be.
The unemployed would be forced to sign in at the job centre 08.00am every morning or have their benefits deducted if they fail to turn up!
Those who have been signing on for more than 3 months should be tagged and monitored if they would like to continue to receive benefits.

[Octoman]

This simply cannot be right ...

1.2 million households get £15,000 in benefits

More than one million households in Britain are receiving more than £15,000 in benefits every year - double the number since Labour came to power, official figures have revealed.

And there were 300,000 households who received £20,000 from the state – more than the take-home pay of a worker on the average salary. That is three times the figure when Labour came to power in 1997.

Official figures this week showed that the average annual salary is now £25,800. After tax, that is a take-home salary of around £19,725.

Theresa May, the Conservative shadow work and pensions secretary, said: "It's hardly surprising that so many people spend their lives on benefits when in some cases they can get as much money from benefits as many people earn in work. Things really have to change."

Of the households receiving £15,000 in welfare, 600,000 have at least one working age adult. And 200,000 of those getting £20,000 have one such adult.

Full Article here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-benefits.html

And the Mirror's take on it.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21818104/

[Mark76]

How about we start with the employers who see anyone who's been out of work for six months or more as workshy dolescum and take it from there?

Quite often the long term unemployed come up against a wall of prejudice and preconceived notions.

[larven]

Originally Posted by Octoman

Theresa May, the Conservative shadow work and pensions secretary, said: "It's hardly surprising that so many people spend their lives on benefits when in some cases they can get as much money from benefits as many people earn in work. Things really have to change."

I'd like to hear more about the Tories proposals to tear down the rotten edifice of Labours welfare system.

[larven]

Originally Posted by Octoman

More than one million households in Britain are receiving more than £15,000 in benefits every year - double the number since Labour came to power, official figures have revealed.

Here's one of them....thankfully caught because of an tip off. Get calling that number if you know of any other benefit thieves out there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Race-Life.html

Benefits cheat 'too weak to walk' runs 5km in Race for Life

A benefits cheat was filmed happily running the Race for Life with thousands of other women - despite claiming more than £20,000 for being 'too weak to walk.'

Susan Hutchinson, 56, fiddled disability cash saying it takes her 15 minutes to walk 100 yards because of asthma, joint pain and a weak bladder.

But fraud investigators caught her on video camera smiling as she ran around the 5km course in her jogging gear.



Prosecutor Tom Crowther said: 'She finished in an hour and a half - a far cry from her disclosure saying she could walk a 100 yards in no less than 15 minutes. 'If this was true the circuit would take her no less than 13 hours.'

Undercover officials from the Department of Work and Pensions also filmed her on a gruelling workout in a women-only gym.

A court heard she lead a double life - one as invalid Susan Hutchinson crippled with pain and the other as Susan Johnson, a super-fit gym member working 12-hour shifts in a care home.

Prosecutor Tom Crowther said: 'She used two identities to fraudulently claim more than £23,000.

Hutchinson also used the surname of Johnson and by that name she was active, healthy and was habitually at the local gym in the early morning.

'She also worked 12-hour shifts in a care home. By her first name of Hutchinson she was known by the DWP and local council as crippled by disability and unable to live any existence.'

She started claiming disability living allowance three years ago saying she was 'asthmatic, suffering joint pain and had severe bladder problems.'

Mr Crowther said: 'She said she could barely walk through dizziness, she couldn't shop and was in no fit state to carry a bag of shopping. 'She claimed she could fall and stumble at any point.'

Cardiff Crown Court heard the benefits fraud investigators began probing her case after a tip-off. Mr Crowther said: 'They watched her leave her home before 7am to go to the local gym.

'They followed her inside and watched her do a comprehensive circuit of the machines available for over an hour, not hampered by dizziness, joint pains nor her bladder. 'She would then go shopping to Morrisons, parking in the disabled bay and undertake a leisurely shop.'

Mother-of-three Hutchinson was filmed running the 5km Race for Life this year in the grounds of Cardiff Castle.

Hutchinson, of Barry, South Wales, admitted six charges of fraud and two of theft totalling £23,238.16.

Susan Ferrier, defending, said: 'This isn't a woman living the life of luxury with sports cars and designer clothes. 'She lives in a council house with her son. Her husband had left her with many debts.'

Judge Peter Roach sentenced her to eight weeks jail but suspended it for 15 months. He said: 'These offences illustrate a deliberate and determined course of conduct where you fraudulently claimed over £20,000.'

The court heard she has begun repaying the money she claimed in income support, rent and disability living allowance.

A spokesman for the DWP said: 'She fraudulently claimed more than £23,000 in benefits including income support and disability living allowance.

'This is reserved for the most severely disabled members of society, who are either unable to walk or virtually unable to walk.'

DWP fraud investigator Jane Griffiths was among the runners and filmed Hutchinson smiling as she tackled the run.

Miss Griffiths said: 'I filmed her among the crowd and I later challenged her when she admitted taking part in the run.'

[Molly]

Originally Posted by ill tonkso

I work part time to get myself through uni so I can get a good job at the end of it and I struggle whilst other people in my city sit on their arses all day. I walk past them sat outside their flats on the way to class or work and it drives me mad.

We had one lady come into our store, bragging about how she was earning x much on benefits and my colleague who served her, a full time employee was actually (after tax) worse off every month. Yet this woman was perfectly fit and able to come out shopping.

But in the long run you will have far more then they can ever dream to hope for. You will have self respect. And the ability to work your socks off for an even better life.

One thing we found when we were younger - possible until not so long ago - was that we believed in helping people who were less fortunate. And then we realised they had higher disposable incomes then we had through not working. They had kids who did better at school because they had parents at home to help them, and they had self confidence cosa they could buy all the in things. So we thought what do we have? We had the ability to work harder and save harder to buy our way away from these people. They are living the best life earning the most they ever can hope for - but for us things could only get better.

People actually get more benefit then the official amounts because there are a lot of hidden extras - the more you qualify for the more extras you are entitled to. My friends got things like washindg machines, new carpets, family holidays. One family I knew had 3 new cars provided for them cos they claimed disability for three of the kids. They were good people with genuine problems but they couldn't believe how much money came pouring in - they were better off out of work then when they were both working - she'd been a nurse. Shows how much nurses were valued. lol. There were friends we'bve known who we thought must be over claiming but they weren't they were just entitled to so much. For many years we worked full time and part time and were neck and neck with friends who neither worked but they had 5 kids and one parent wo claimed disability - but they had their house fixed for free so had a higher disposable income then we did.

I was watching one of those tv shows and a do gooder was trying to get the council to give a family with lots of kids a 5 bedroom house. But think how many of us can ever dream of living in a house with 5 bedrooms. Only the very highest income families can afford uch a big house Instead we ration our lives and restrict ourselves and have one or two kids and do our very best to bring them up right. Only the most wealthy in society should hope to have more.

If you think about it you will ony get pissed off, and the closer you are to the 'income' of these people the more it will piss you off. It is real crap. And crapest of all is if we fell onto hard times I bet we'd get sod all. And we'd not be dishonest enough to play the system.


Children bring in far too much money for these families. Two kids and 3 at the most should be catered for. But no extra money at all from any direction for more then that. People should have kids cos they love them not cos having them's a little earner. But I think it is good to help families because the kids need bringing up right which takes time away from work. but the more kids they have the more they should have to make their money go further. I'd be happy for one parent to be paid a salary for bringing up the kids - but it'd have to be proved they were 'working' and doing a good job. So it's not be benefit but be earning a real income doing something really valuable.

[larven]

Originally Posted by Molly

People actually get more benefit then the official amounts because there are a lot of hidden extras - the more you qualify for the more extras you are entitled to. My friends got things like washindg machines, new carpets, family holidays. One family I knew had 3 new cars provided for them cos they claimed disability for three of the kids. They were good people with genuine problems but they couldn't believe how much money came pouring in - they were better off out of work then when they were both working - she'd been a nurse. Shows how much nurses were valued. lol. There were friends we'bve known who we thought must be over claiming but they weren't they were just entitled to so much. For many years we worked full time and part time and were neck and neck with friends who neither worked but they had 5 kids and one parent wo claimed disability - but they had their house fixed for free so had a higher disposable income then we did.

All perfect examples of New Labour's 'rotten to the core' welfare system and the equally rotten values that it nurtures and rewards. Examples from the lives of everyday normal people, not sourced from the Daily Mail or other elements of the hysterical press.

Disgusting.

[ill tonkso]

Originally Posted by Molly

If you think about it you will ony get pissed off, and the closer you are to the 'income' of these people the more it will piss you off. It is real crap. And crapest of all is if we fell onto hard times I bet we'd get sod all. And we'd not be dishonest enough to play the system.

Oh and how pissed off I get, my tuition fees for uni are £3200 this year! Why is the government not subsidising further education more? Because they are paying people to sit on their arses. The industry I wish to go into (Video Games) puts around £1bn into the UK Economy each year (oddly enough the Tories have recently released announced they are actively considering giving Tax Breaks to games developers as a result of this! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...me-makers.html). But the current government has left me around £15,000 in debt.

Now look at my Playstation 3, recently it died and I do not at the moment have the money to repair it. Now I know some are reading this and are thinking 'oh boo hoo what a shame' but I EARNED that Playstation 3, I went out and WORKED for it. Sitting down playing a Video Game is one of favourite pass times so why should I not be able to play? Why am I sat without my console when Mr No Job is sat there playing his Playstation 3 on his massive 42inch TV!!!

[Rigadon]

Originally Posted by Octoman

This simply cannot be right ...

1.2 million households get £15,000 in benefits

More than one million households in Britain are receiving more than £15,000 in benefits every year - double the number since Labour came to power, official figures have revealed.

And there were 300,000 households who received £20,000 from the state – more than the take-home pay of a worker on the average salary. That is three times the figure when Labour came to power in 1997.

Official figures this week showed that the average annual salary is now £25,800. After tax, that is a take-home salary of around £19,725.

Theresa May, the Conservative shadow work and pensions secretary, said: "It's hardly surprising that so many people spend their lives on benefits when in some cases they can get as much money from benefits as many people earn in work. Things really have to change."

Of the households receiving £15,000 in welfare, 600,000 have at least one working age adult. And 200,000 of those getting £20,000 have one such adult.

Full Article here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-benefits.html

And the Mirror's take on it.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21818104/

Without taking into account inflation and comparing it to the change in the average benefits, most these quoted facts are worthless. For all we know there could have been masses of people on 14k of benefits whose benefits have simply naturally increased to over 15k. I also find it hard to know if those earnings are excessive when I dont know the average size of those households.

[PresidentBjork]

Originally Posted by larven

'A culture of worklessness has become rife in pockets of Brown's Britain'
Theresa May, Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary


http://perspicacious.co.uk/all-the-n...ant-one/17427/

hold on, that figure includes students that could hypothetically otherwise be in a job? That means anyone studying over the age of 16...

Add to that the important nonsalaried economic activity home carers provide, and the genuinely ill and unemployed.

More than a bit of hyperbole present in that article.

[Bones]

I agree with a lot of the posts on this thread. The use of the phrase "benefit culture" is key to this argument. Long periods of state dependancy really do change the culture, particularly where there is a large concentration of claimants such as on the worst sink estates. The rise of welfare dependancy and the explosion of out of wedlock births in the last three decades go hand in hand. One feeds the other. The state basically becomes the father in the economic sense and renders the nuclear traditional family redundant. Women can have children with multiple fathers secure in the knowledge that none will be needed for support. Men can breed random progeny. Lacking in the need for fatherly responsibilty these men can channel their male agression onto the street rather than the healthy pusuit of family income. A life of petty crime and drug dealing becomes the norm and short prison sentences do not deter. In fact many members of the criminal fraternity arrive in prison emaciated from a combination of junk food and drug taking. Their best nutritional periods are those spent on the inside where they also get to meet a lot of their friends.
Even worse is the example set to children. Young girls learn that it is normal to bear a child alone as a teenager. Boys have no strong male role model to look up to. Their single parent mothers cannot discilpline them and they gravitate towards the true leaders in a workless society-the gang leaders and drug dealers of the street. It is no coincidence that welfare, single motherhood and street crime have all exploded in the last fifty years.

[ill tonkso]

Originally Posted by PresidentBjork

hold on, that figure includes students that could hypothetically otherwise be in a job? That means anyone studying over the age of 16...

Add to that the important nonsalaried economic activity home carers provide, and the genuinely ill and unemployed.

More than a bit of hyperbole present in that article.

A large percentage of Students actually work part time as well. Probably somewhere between a third and a half of them. I do too.