The Strait of Messina Bridge - The longest suspension Bridge in the world (3300m)

[Qtya]

Originally Posted by michaelII

in other words: is this about satisfying your need for bling bling and to impress the asians with our new european superbridge or do you wanna solve the daily problems of the local people?

If the second happens, what do you have against the first? We are just men, in one way or another, we all want to shine...
"Vanity, definitely my favorite sin..." - The Devil's Advocate

[Sal73x]

Originally Posted by gramercy

fine, now take a look at the cost of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, the Channel Tunnel or the proposed Brenner Base Tunnel (incidentally, also 6bn)
so you see there ARE plenty of projects in this price range

Again, you are talking about areas of Europe that:
1. Have already the infrastructures to support/complete those tunnels
2. Have a population/users that justify those projects.
3. Have an economy that can afford to invest in something that in the long run will pay back the effort.

Gotthard Base Tunnel: Switzerland-(Northern Italy)
Channel Tunnel: France-Great Brittain
Brenner Base Tunnel: Northern Italy-Austria-(Germany)

Messina Bridge: Sicily-Calabria..........= Southern Italy

I think the names of the countries above speak for themselves.

i dont doubt this, i will just add, that the longer it takes, the less money / year..., or if the cost increases with it, the money/year may remain the same

History is teaching us that every single engineering project in Italy,
1. Was completed after the programmed finishing date.
2. Every time ratio money/year has increased.
3. Even if it stays the same (no chance to decrease), it is still suicidal (economically).

fine, now look at Akashi-Kaikyo and the earthquake that shifted the bridge while it was under construction

This bridge has a span of 3.300m, not 1.990m. This mens that it has a span 65% longer than the Akashi-Kaikyo....... + 65%
The Akashi-Kaikyo has only 3 road lanes (it's still a great bridge), this bridge will have 6 road lanes (4+2) and 2 railway tracks!

i seriously doubt (even in italy) that they would build the bridge without sufficiently planning for the earthquakes and the possible effects over hundred(s) of years

it will be very tough, sure
but i refuse to believe for a second that it is impossible

I'm sure that on paper the project will be possible...I never said it's impossible,
I always said: Sicily/Italy CAN NOT AFFORD IT.

[gramercy]

Originally Posted by michaelII

so you would do it because it is technically possible and because it's big and spectacular and bling bling with a lot of superlatives?
or do you wanna do it because you have enough money to spend and you think with this investment you have done the best for the majority of the people and the society?
in other words: is this about satisfying your need for bling bling and to impress the asians with our new european superbridge or do you wanna solve the daily problems of the local people?

yes

[gramercy]

Originally Posted by Sal73x

3. Even if it stays the same (no chance to decrease), it is still suicidal (economically).

i refuese to believe that 1 bn in a 2300 bn / year economy is "suicide"

This bridge has a span of 3.300m, not 1.990m. This mens that it has a span 65% longer than the Akashi-Kaikyo....... + 65%

what of it?

The Akashi-Kaikyo has only 3 road lanes (it's still a great bridge), this bridge will have 6 road lanes (4+2) and 2 railway tracks!

the akashi has 2x(3+1)=8 lanes, this one would have 2x(2+1) + 2 railway = 8 "lanes"

I always said: Sicily/Italy CAN NOT AFFORD IT.

ok

[Matthieu]

Originally Posted by gramercy

i realize all that, but as J/C says in the video, they could have built the highway elsewhere, lower down with tunnels or several dozen kms away
i'm sure the bridge wasnt the only alternative considered

The massif central is a piece of shit though, if they take a different way they would end up with a serpentine looking motorway. Actually, not so far from Millau's Viaduct, there's another big viaduct which has a 144m high road deck (in Verrieres), so as you can imagine the whole area is messy.

http://www.aveyronweb.com/images/viaducverrieres.jpg

[michaelII]

Originally Posted by gramercy

yes

ah ok. so it's like you wanna buy a big fat ferrari you can't afford to impress your new neighbours.
and after you showed it to the neighbours you tell yourself to have had a good time ... and then? what comes then? is that your concept?

[gramercy]

Originally Posted by michaelII

ah ok. so it's like you wanna buy a big fat ferrari you can't afford to impress your new neighbours.
and after you showed it to the neighbours you tell yourself to have had a good time ... and then? what comes then? is that your concept?

it is your (and the oppositons) opinion, that italy cant afford this bridge

i think it can

[Eddard Stark]

Originally Posted by gramercy

it is your (and the oppositons) opinion, that italy cant afford this bridge

i think it can

It actually can afford it

By the way part of the cost will be covered by the private consortium (I think 40%) which will repay the investment through the bridge transit payments

So the state and the community will spend less than 6 billion €...which is anyway a fraction of what we spent in 10 years over the HSR lines (we spent 35 billion € in little more than 10 years)

The question is: those billions are best spent on the bridge? maybe not. But it is a fascinating project...at this point I am for it

[michaelII]

Originally Posted by gramercy

it is your (and the oppositons) opinion, that italy cant afford this bridge

i think it can

so show me where the money comes from.
and show me where then the money is coming from for the necessary public traffic infrastructure in sicily and calabria. those investments are urgent.
and then show me which business man will be mad enough to invest hundrets of millions of € or even billions in a bridge which will according to official announcments repay itself over the next 60 years.
and those are the official figures. so in reality it will take even more than that.
which means that the investors most probably wont even see their money back within their lifetime.
well, i can only guess which sort of private investors will thankfully invest in that bridge...

[Eddard Stark]

Originally Posted by michaelII

so show me where the money comes from.
and show me where then the money is coming from for the necessary public traffic infrastructure in sicily and calabria. those investments are urgent.
and then show me which business man will be mad enough to invest hundrets of millions of € or even billions in a bridge which will according to official announcments repay itself over the next 60 years.
and those are the official figures. so in reality it will take even more than that.
which means that the investors most probably wont even see their money back within their lifetime.
well, i can only guess which sort of private investors will thankfully invest in that bridge...

there are already the business man and investors, it's Impregilo which won the competition and will build part of the infrastructure without public money and getting back it through the payments of the bridge.

It's called Project Financing

[michaelII]

Originally Posted by Eddard Stark

there are already the business man and investors, it's Impregilo which won the competition and will build part of the infrastructure without public money and getting back it through the payments of the bridge.

It's called Project Financing

what? so impreglio is practically doing everything ... they are designing, building and even financing this bridge?
how believable is that? no construction firm on this planet has the cash, especially within this economic enviroment with this severe real estate crises, to invest billions of euros into a bridge which repay itself over 60 years.

[Koen Acacia]

Originally Posted by michaelII

what? so impreglio is practically doing everything ... they are designing, building and even financing this bridge?
how believable is that? no construction firm on this planet has the cash, especially within this economic enviroment with this severe real estate crises, to invest billions of euros into a bridge which repay itself over 60 years.

Well, then pick up the phone and tell them they are wrong. It's their investment...

[michaelII]

Originally Posted by Koen Acacia

Well, then pick up the phone and tell them they are wrong. It's their investment...

impreglio this year made a nine month net profit of 37.3 million euros.
they wont finance a more than 6 billion € bridge which officially refinance itself within 60 years.

in my opinion this is a story the politicians told the public to keep them quiet. this bridge is a political present for whoever ... i don't know, i can only guess. but i would bet some of my money that in the end tax money will flow and pay the bills.

[Eddard Stark]

[QUOTE=michaelII;46026039]what? so impreglio is practically doing everything ... they are designing, building and even financing this bridge?
how believable is that? no construction firm on this planet has the cash, especially within this economic enviroment with this severe real estate crises, to invest billions of euros into a bridge which repay itself over 60 years.[/QUOTE]

It's PF, used all over the world. In reality they do not pay in "cash" the construction but in "nature": ie their own construction works.

It is not of course the total cost of the bridge, I do not remember the exact amount but it shall be about 40% of the total cost which will be sustained by Impregilo and the other parters

Than after the bridge is built they start getting payments for 60 years...no one said it will take that long to return of the investment of 40% of the cost (which includes their margins). It may take much less, depending on the traffic.

It's just financial stuff

[Eddard Stark]

Originally Posted by michaelII

impreglio this year made a nine month net profit of 37.3 million euros.
they wont finance a more than 6 billion € bridge which officially refinance itself within 60 years.

in my opinion this is a story the politicians told the public to keep them quiet. this bridge is a political present for whoever ... i don't know, i can only guess. but i would bet some of my money that in the end tax money will flow and pay the bills.

do not confuse profit with investment. you can make billion € investment using levy (ie debts) and without using at all the previous years profit...actually companies never invest using profits

again, it's the wonderful world of finance

[michaelII]

Originally Posted by Eddard Stark

It's PF, used all over the world. In reality they do not pay in "cash" the construction but in "nature": ie their own construction works.

It is not of course the total cost of the bridge, I do not remember the exact amount but it shall be about 40% of the total cost which will be sustained by Impregilo and the other parters

Than after the bridge is built they start getting payments for 60 years...no one said it will take that long to return of the investment of 40% of the cost (which includes their margins). It may take much less, depending on the traffic.

It's just financial stuff

if i see it i will believe it. but before i don't see it with my own eyes i think this story is a fairytale and i refuse to believe it.
so 40% of the costs will be about 3 billion euros, maybe more. so if you cut the profit they calculated they will have to spend at least 2 billion probably a lot more. to pay in nature is something which doesn't work if you have to pay for your staff and your materials and all the rest.
before the first car can cross that bridge years and years will pass. and when the bridge will finally be ready the running costs of this highly fragile and complicated bridge will be very high.
the traffic volume south of naples isn't very high. the economic strength neither. so it will take decades to refinance those investmens. already the ferry's produce debts. and official sources assume a break even 60 years from now. 60 years! and that's only a guess. noone knows what will happen in those 60 years and how the traffic will change. so that's nothing more than a number. nothing to base an investment on.

so in a situation where the real estate market implodes (impregilo lost more than the half of their profits. 70% if i remember it right.) and the construction business struggles to survive ... impregilo leaves it's basic workfield to spend their whole annual revenue into a project of a notoriously unprofitable business sector which will be finished years from now and maybe will make some small profit if they are lucky 10 years from now. which infrastructure project is a cash cow anyway? the tunnel between england and france for example wasn't. and a bridge between reggio and messina doesn't sound like one too.

my guess is that a lot of "private business man" will discharge their offshore accounts and use their money of unknown origin to white wash it with this bridge. and the law which was recently passed or will be passed by the berlusconi government which gives in some ways amnesia to money of unknown origin fits quite well into this picture.
you know that sometimes politicians have to give a favour to the people who will repay it them with votes and other favours. and actually it was only berlusconi who wanted this bridge. and actually it is berlusconi who is notoriously linked with some of those local "private business men" with a lot of cash, probably bunkered on offshore accounts waiting to whitewash it.
and the state will repay them their investments via trenitalia or something else.

[andrelot]

As an Italian citizen, I ought to say that majority of people support this project, which have been on the table for decades! We don't want to be separated by a creepy and slow ferry service from our loved island.

Like always, opposition to big infrastructure projects (the HS rail main axis which will open Dec 13th being a quintessential example) come from:

1. People directly negatively affected by the project, like unions from ferry companies.

2. BANANAs and NIMBYS who wish Southern Italy were still a malaria-plagued, no running-water, widespread malnoursihd children (like in the aftermath of WW2) place so it would look more "natural" or "sustainable".

3. Vested interests in ferry transport.

Technically speaking there have been, elsewhere, a lot of bridge construction over fault earthquake zone. Japan was an example, Lisbon would be another. The cost is a fraction of what has been spent in building the Torino-Salerno high speed rail. Together with retification and modernization of A3 highway (which, albeit slow, is progressing - so far more than 61% of it have already been renovated and opened for traffic), it will be a major accomplishment not only for Italy, but also for Europe.

For those who argue that Italy cannot afford any major infrastructure project before all urban problems are solved, I'd like to aks how would you like our country to look like? No freeways, no high speed rail, no new urban development, no new seaports... anything? Should we still been using the Roman-age roads? Italy has its fair share of "local" problems eveywhere (as most Western European countries have also), but it should not stop us for building the things that generates jobs, income, and growht.

Indeed, it is a SHAME that such a close island is still detached from mainland! 5,6 million people live in Sicily, and they will be hugely benefited by this bridge - just look at what happened at Prince Edward Island, a much less populated and further into the ocean island in Canada which was finally linked to mainland in 1993.

We, Italians, built a freeway network that was the most impressive in Europe until the 1970's. When NATM or shields were on their early ages, we were digging through Autostrada dei Fiori (Genova - Nice) or the Appenines (A1). Then (I cannot yet believe it), some leftist politicians vowed to pass a law forbiding any new freeway construction in 1974 (improvements, bypasses, conclusion of already scheduled works and lane expansion were not prohibited), which was repaled only en 1992. Together with France and Switzerland, we escavated Frejus, Monte Bianco (Mont Blanc) and St. Bernard Tunnels!

The Ponte sul Stretto is our opportunity to catch up with impressive viaducts French are building, expansion of Autobahns, massive Swiss tunnels and so on.