How come no tunnel linking

[nosey]

Belfast to the rest of the UK?

[Mostly Lurking]

Where to start?


How about cost and how it would pay for itself.

[stimarco]

Originally Posted by nosey

Belfast to the rest of the UK?

Believe it or not, Eire has plans for a tunnel linking Dublin with Wales. (Still at the very early conceptual stage, and unlikely to be built before 2040-ish.)

The EU has a policy in place for constructing HSR linking all its major capital cities. Belfast and Dublin are both in the EU, so there's likely to be some subsidy from that source for the purpose. It'd certainly simplify some freight logistics.

Services from Belfast would use the Dublin link as a tunnel from Belfast to the NW of England would result in much longer journey times to London and the Channel Tunnel. This link might still be built eventually, if only to provide some redundancy and closer ties with the Scottish Lowlands and the cities in the NW and NE of England. It might even tie in with a second UK-mainland EU link. But the Dublin-Wales route would most likely be built first.

Technically, such tunnels are possible. It's the costs and politics which will dictate when—if ever—they are built. The need to build HSR lines to connect the tunnel(s) and cities together is also an important consideration. The route linking the Welsh end of an Irish Sea Tunnel with the rest of the UK would also need to thread through some major conurbations and difficult terrain, so it won't be cheap.

I suspect that the link will initially favour freight and a "Le Shuttle"-type vehicle ferrying service above HSR. Ireland's railways use a non-standard gauge, so brand new lines will be needed for any national HSR network; simply modifying existing lines won't be an option. The country is also quite sparsely populated, so megaprojects like these have to be tempered with more than a little pragmatism.

[belfastuniguy]

Too expensive and linking Northern Ireland to Scotland would be technically difficult given the nature of the seabed and the deep trench on the sea floor.

Further south and the condition improve somewhat but again the costs are incredibly prohibitive. Given the fact that you can fly between the UK and Ireland for practically nothing it currently does not make economic sense.

[Salif]

It might even tie in with a second UK-mainland EU link.

Where would this be?

[stimarco]

Originally Posted by Salif

It might even tie in with a second UK-mainland EU link.

Where would this be?

Either near the existing site near Cheriton, or—more likely—somewhere on the coast of one of the Eastern Counties. (E.g. Lowestoft-Den Haag.)

Quadrupling of the existing Chunnel is by far the most likely, but there's a case to be made for the redundancy and diversionary options provided by a new crossing further north.

At present we're rather too reliant on HS1 for Eurostar services and freight. Kent's classic lines are becoming increasingly saturated, so were HS1 to be damaged—either by accident or deliberate act—diverting services via Shortlands might not be an option for much longer.

[Bob]

Not wishing to be a kill-joy here, but the economics for a tunnel to Ireland will NEVER stack up. Just look back at how long and difficult it was to get the channel one built and that had much stronger economic benefit and a much smaller cost. No chance, nill, forget it.

When there are 18 coach duplexes running every 10 minutes along HS1 it will be full. It's nowhere near capacity yet running eurostars every 30 mins. Nor is the channel tunnel full. As a comparison the ECML, with much greater traffic numbers, still has the Welwyn viaduct bottleneck. A bottleneck which the Victorians nor anyone since have managed to justify quadrupling.

[Salif]

Well it's not just the tunnel you'd have to pay for but also the major upgrades to the existing infrastructure (and possibly new) either side of the water.

But this wouldn't just be a UK-Ireland link, it would be a Ireland-UK-Rest of Europe link as well. Not sure if that would help the economic case any?

With high speed passenger trains and expected freight traffic this would hopefully ensure the channel tunnel is better used along with HS1.

I think it'll happen at some point especially if the EU is serious about linking up all it's capitals.

[poshbakerloo]

Originally Posted by nosey

Belfast to the rest of the UK?

The distance is a bit big aint it?

[John Williams]

Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

The distance is a bit big aint it?

The only place to build a tunnel to Ireland is between Dublin and North Wales. The economics will stack up as Ireland will economically benefit as the tunnel will boost the economy. Have a High speed train from Dublin to Belfast and to the west and Ireland is opened up, with a migration of people towards the west.

But build tidal lagoons in the Irish Sea to create electricity and a bridge is across for nothing. The we get fossil free electricity.

[Mwmbwls]

I suspect that the link will initially favour freight and a "Le Shuttle"-type vehicle ferrying service above HSR. Ireland's railways use a non-standard gauge, so brand new lines will be needed for any national HSR network; simply modifying existing lines won't be an option. The country is also quite sparsely populated, so megaprojects like these have to be tempered with more than a little pragmatism.[/QUOTE]

As the Irish Gauge is five feet three inches and the British Gauge is four feet eight and a half laying a third rail as was done IIRC at Kalgoolie would not seem to be beyond the realms of possibility. The major constraint would appear to be that Britain does not have a European loading gauge. Bye the bye - The Irish Tram System LUAS operates on standard gauge track.

[OperateOnMe]

Why not have a more reliable and frequent ferry service? Wouldn't it be cheaper modernising and enlarging the ports? Plus possibly investment in airports/aeroplanes???

[John Williams]

Originally Posted by OperateOnMe

Why not have a more reliable and frequent ferry service? Wouldn't it be cheaper modernising and enlarging the ports? Plus possibly investment in airports/aeroplanes???

SeatCats are used from Liverpool to the Isle of Man. They are fast. The great thing about rail tunnels is that a train can betaken from Birmingham say to Limerick.

[stimarco]

Originally Posted by Mwmbwls

As the Irish Gauge is five feet three inches and the British Gauge is four feet eight and a half laying a third rail as was done IIRC at Kalgoolie would not seem to be beyond the realms of possibility.

The Spanish system of dual-gauge axles which change from one to the other might be viable.

The Irish rail network is small enough that it probably wouldn't be a huge stretch to convert it all to the standard EU gauge. The Great Western Railway managed to downsize from 7' in the late 1800s, after all.

On the other hand...

The major constraint would appear to be that Britain does not have a European loading gauge.

If EU funding were to be used for this mega-project—and that seems the most likely route—it'll doubtless include a requirement for HSR at each end of the tunnel. You'll need some HSR to get from the tunnel near Dublin all the way up to Belfast for a start.

Depending on where the UK end of the tunnel ends up, you have two options: either a south-Wales tunnel—in which case, there are already proposals to upgrade the GWR to near-HSR standards at some point in the future. A link from a north-Wales tunnel (probably near Holyhead) to HS2 would also be viable technically. And if you can get a train to London, you'll likely be able to run it onto HS1.

HSR is always built to the EU loading gauge and the EU is only after a Europe-wide HSR network. A tunnel to Dublin from Wales isn't any use without decent onward links.