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Old December 10th, 2009, 07:06 AM   #61
shreyas1684
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Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
Here the issue is only with funding. Kochi can have a metro if it can do it with external funding or PPP.

Population is not the only criteria which determines the ‘importance’ of a city. Kerala is unique as the population is distributed evenly across the coastal lands and looks as if a continuous urban sprawl.

By international standards, a city/UA with more than 1 Million population should ideally have an MRTS. Do you consider Dubai, with about 1.5 million population a lesser city than Kanpur or Surat? Of course, we are talking about ‘Indian’ conditions, but comparisons cannot be made on those lines saying Kochi would get it only after Kanpur or Surat. (And for Information, Kochi and Coimbatore have almost the same population )

Kochi is one of the modern & beautiful cities in India, with a better Physical Quality of Life Index than most other ‘populous’ Indian cities. To keep that, the civic admin can plan of a Metro. The main point of contention is the ‘share’ of Central Govt in funding of the project. It is not like that Kochi should get a Metro only after all the 20 odd cities ahead of it in population gets the same. Here also, there is a matter of state wise quota of funds.
obviously, population is one of the most or foremost factor before planning and developing of any infrastructure of any god damn city or sprawl or even village if i can say. funding comes from three ways first, city funding that comes from regular share of city tax in state second, central government funding third private funding. in all three options need a certain amount of dwellers to travel to make project profitable otherwise everything is like taj
mahal in lost city.

the population of dubai is obviously 1.5 to 2 million max. but did u count influx of other millions of tourist, business personal in a year tat adds up its population way higher in other way it is like defacto city. 160 floor tower tells everything about city of 2 million...no one like to make anything without several initial thought of outcome.

you can count the days for it but practically it is a big blunder to keep society dreaming (which is gud though) at this time. i will be first person to support if its dream come true.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 07:59 AM   #62
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Ok here is my opinion as an urban planner:

Rather than investing $X amount of money on one metro corridor, it would make MUCH more sense to invest $X amount on cheaper forms of transit. BRTS, Light Rail, Monorail, etc.

If Kochi does build a couple metro corridors, there won't be much ridership since you need an integrated SYSTEM for mass transit to work. Having one or two metro corridors will be no use. Few people might use it, but it won't be financially viable.

It makes a LOT more sense for a city like Kochi to have a NETWORK of 10 (BRT, Monorail, etc ) corridors than to have 1 or 2 metro corridors.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 08:16 AM   #63
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Exactly Niknak. Thats the point I am trying to make for a long time. The ridership for a city with this population for just 1 corridoor wouldnt be much to balance the cost. It wont be financially viable and at the same time it wont be serving the purpose of an integrated mass transit since it connects only1 corridoor. To make it an intergrated mass transit that would be used by most of the people to travel within the city there needs to be a combination of BRTS corridoor, light rail, suburban , monorail etc. This was mentioned even for Chennai metro by the BRTS guru (the ex mayor of Bogota).

Sudheesh, was it the case that any private players expressed interest in this 1 corridoor project but govt was adamant that it cant be PPP? Was there any such history to it? Just clarifying.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 08:30 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreyas1684 View Post
obviously, population is one of the most or foremost factor before planning and developing of any infrastructure of any god damn city or sprawl or even village if i can say. funding comes from three ways first, city funding that comes from regular share of city tax in state second, central government funding third private funding. in all three options need a certain amount of dwellers to travel to make project profitable otherwise everything is like taj
mahal in lost city.

the population of dubai is obviously 1.5 to 2 million max. but did u count influx of other millions of tourist, business personal in a year tat adds up its population way higher in other way it is like defacto city. 160 floor tower tells everything about city of 2 million...no one like to make anything without several initial thought of outcome.

you can count the days for it but practically it is a big blunder to keep society dreaming (which is gud though) at this time. i will be first person to support if its dream come true.
I am not sure how many Mass Rapid Transit Systems in the world are ‘Profitable’. Even if you take ‘operational profit’, I do not think more than 5 MRTS systems in the world is profitable. It is more of a public service.

And the ‘operational profit’ will come when advertisements, related property development etc are also taken care of.

There are many cities in the world with lesser populations having an MRTS . Dublin is one among them. My point was the comparison with other Indian cities, apart from the big six. Of course, the prime need is the Metros in the Big Six, which are also the prime drivers or the ‘known cities’ outside India. Apart from those cities, I do not think there is any point in having ‘priorities as per population’. You may also be informed that Chandigarh, a city with lesser population is also planning for a Metro. I am not sure whether it is ‘Kochi’ or ‘Kanpur/Patna/Rajkot’ which would be a more internationally recognizable city. And Kochi is not a Tier III city, it is one of the important Tier II cities of India. You had given the example of Dubai being a ‘tourist’ city. Please be informed that last year there were 36 luxury cruise liners which were berthed in Kochi. Queen Mary 2, the largest and most expensive cruise liner in the world had only Kochi as the only port of call in India during its first global tour. Kochi was also the only stop over point in India for the ‘Volvo Ocean Race’ in 2008.

So the priorities cannot be fixed only on the basis of ‘population’ alone, especially among the Tier II cities.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 09:12 AM   #65
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Agreed that most mass transit systems world over r not quite profitable operational wise, but do you think that 1 metro corridoor alone from Aluva to Petta for 22km would be a good mass transit system. Even Dublin which is a very good example elborated by Scorpio has a combo of multiple modes of transport ( not just Metro) which means any travel within Dublin can be on any one of the modes which is part of the intergrated mass transit system. But can something similar be acheived with this 1 metro line. In short other than people travelling between ALuva and Pettah, say people going to Thevara or Fort Kochi wouldnt use it, which means the ridership wouldnt be too much. So would the project bring any turaround in using public transport or would only for namesake say that it has a METRO.

Kochi is a very important city among tier II cities and in a recent survey it was voted the no:7 city in India in terms of consumer spending ( if I am not mistaken, correct me if wrong). And with an international container transshipment terminal being commissioned in 2010 april, one of the biggest malls in India coming up in Kochi- Lulu etc it is surging ahead, no one can deny that.

No one can deny that it needs a proposal for mass transit, but it should be something more all encompassing and something more comprehensive than a single corridoor metro. Something like the BRTS+ Monorail model planned for Trivandrum
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Old December 10th, 2009, 09:28 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
I am not sure how many Mass Rapid Transit Systems in the world are ‘Profitable’. Even if you take ‘operational profit’, I do not think more than 5 MRTS systems in the world is profitable. It is more of a public service.

And the ‘operational profit’ will come when advertisements, related property development etc are also taken care of.

There are many cities in the world with lesser populations having an MRTS . Dublin is one among them. My point was the comparison with other Indian cities, apart from the big six. Of course, the prime need is the Metros in the Big Six, which are also the prime drivers or the ‘known cities’ outside India. Apart from those cities, I do not think there is any point in having ‘priorities as per population’. You may also be informed that Chandigarh, a city with lesser population is also planning for a Metro. I am not sure whether it is ‘Kochi’ or ‘Kanpur/Patna/Rajkot’ which would be a more internationally recognizable city. And Kochi is not a Tier III city, it is one of the important Tier II cities of India. You had given the example of Dubai being a ‘tourist’ city. Please be informed that last year there were 36 luxury cruise liners which were berthed in Kochi. Queen Mary 2, the largest and most expensive cruise liner in the world had only Kochi as the only port of call in India during its first global tour. Kochi was also the only stop over point in India for the ‘Volvo Ocean Race’ in 2008.

So the priorities cannot be fixed only on the basis of ‘population’ alone, especially among the Tier II cities.
i will be always in favor of the city which is one of my favorite..i meant tire III means it has less population than tire II cities on other factors like lifestyle living standard wise it is obviously tire II city but u cant do anything without sustainable population and tats wat my ultimate point was...

the cities u were tellin me was located in richer class first world areas..i think u knw our country very well..now tell me is it gud to compare the city wid high standards of living at world class level to a city in average level in almost all things...same goes to chandigadh(except having highest living standard in india)...i am not in favor of tat..its a bit show off..

the city i used to live called thunder bay, canada, a city of 200 000 population still it had everything from brts to tram..it had far better facilities than my home city vadodara, a city of 2.2 million population(another city with higher living standard in india)..but can i compare both of them ..no..why because there is lot of difference between first world and third world...the same way u cant compare dubai and kochi in almost all things including tourist destination...come on man..Dubai is counted as one of top five tourist destination on this globe...how can u compare(if i guess)..

in time kochi will get metro as many as it wants but not now, tats wat i can guess..
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Old December 10th, 2009, 10:41 AM   #67
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Tier I or Tier II are not decided as per ‘one’s’ thoughts or fancies. It is a generally accepted criteria by the govt/industry/economy.

Simply put, you cannot term Kochi as Tier III for the reason that you find it having less population than some other Tier II cities.

My comparison of Kochi with Dubai as a reply to your comparison of it with other cities. The crux of the issue was ‘population is not always the deciding factor’.

And the cities of Kerala are not ‘third world’, it is in a middle path, say second world or so. The ‘physical quality of life Index’ of Kerala is unique in India and is comparable to that of the country side of the western world or some Latin American nations.

BTW my point of contention is about the question ‘Why Kochi should not have a Metro’ rather than ‘Why Kochi should have a Metro’. (Response to the absurdity that Kochi should have not it since cities like Kanpur/Patna/Surat etc do not have. You can also ask why Kochi has the fourth busiest international airport in India, why not Patna?, why more five star hotels/resorts by world chains are there in Kochi and not in Kanpur etc etc)
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Old December 10th, 2009, 05:10 PM   #68
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your current opinions are based on highly flawed perceptions tat takes you far from reality. now it is weird tat your comments are not at usual of yours..anyways i wouldn't like to extend this topic anymore...(you knw why) but i will definitely say tat gud luck for your aspirations about so called kochi metro & hope will come up as soon as possible and prove me wrong (which is not usual).!!!!
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Old December 10th, 2009, 09:53 PM   #69
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In the end, I still think it makes more sense to spend $X million to build 10 corridors of BRT/Monorail and service the entire city rather than spending that same amount to build 1 corridor of Metro to service two parts of the city.

And yes, I have been to Kochi.


Even if Public Transport is not usually profitable, the government would lose a LOT less money if they were able to serve 90% of the people with 10 BRT/Monorail corridors rather than serving 15% of the people with 1 Metro corridor.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 10:22 PM   #70
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Valid points.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 01:39 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
In the end, I still think it makes more sense to spend $X million to build 10 corridors of BRT/Monorail and service the entire city rather than spending that same amount to build 1 corridor of Metro to service two parts of the city.

And yes, I have been to Kochi.


Even if Public Transport is not usually profitable, the government would lose a LOT less money if they were able to serve 90% of the people with 10 BRT/Monorail corridors rather than serving 15% of the people with 1 Metro corridor.
+1
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Old December 11th, 2009, 04:14 AM   #72
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Very valid points Niknak. Makes it clear to Forumers that issue is not just with funding and even though metro lines r not profitable we should think of a plan that minimizes losses
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Old December 11th, 2009, 06:09 AM   #73
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I don’t have any flawed perceptions. I am a guy living in India, seeing everything, working in the construction/infrastructure/real estate industry since 2000. I know my numbers very well. In fact in 2001 I had begun my career with KINFRA(Kerala Industrial Infrastructure Development Corporation) when L&T Ramboll prepared the initial feasibility reports for MRTS at Kochi and Trivandrum and submitted to us.

I have not vehemently supported Kochi Metro either. My point of objection was to the idea that Kochi should not get it since there are other cities with more population who are yet to think of it. And your ignorance that Kochi is a Tier III city. Tiers are not fixed on the criteria of population alone, it is more on economic activity, housing, healthcare, educational and recreational facilities, international connectivity, progress of hospitality sector, overall development index etc.

If you read from the beginning of the thread, you can see my posts expressing doubts about the viability of the project due to the high costs involved. (Knowing very well that not much MRTS projects in the world are not running on profit)


Quote:
Originally Posted by shreyas1684 View Post
your current opinions are based on highly flawed perceptions tat takes you far from reality. now it is weird tat your comments are not at usual of yours..anyways i wouldn't like to extend this topic anymore...(you knw why) but i will definitely say tat gud luck for your aspirations about so called kochi metro & hope will come up as soon as possible and prove me wrong (which is not usual).!!!!
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Old December 11th, 2009, 12:06 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
My point of objection was to the idea that Kochi should not get it since there are other cities with more population who are yet to think of it. And your ignorance that Kochi is a Tier III city. Tiers are not fixed on the criteria of population alone, it is more on economic activity, housing, healthcare, educational and recreational facilities, international connectivity, progress of hospitality sector, overall development index etc.
That's right in one sense. If there is more populous city than Kochi in a laggard state, then Kochi should not be made to wait for that laggard state to build a metro first. If Kochi has enough population and commerce to sustain a metro, then it should obviously get it, irrespective of others.

But there is another concern, which is the source of funding. Centre cannot support many metros at a time (as there are hell lot of other things for centre). In that scenario, center's money should first go to a city where metro is most viable and so on. Now that's the bone of contention. There are many other cities which have expressed desire to have a metro and are more viable compared to Kochi. If Kochi can arrange private money (PPP), then it's fine.

But then again, money should be used more judiciously as explained by Niknak (build 10 BRT instead of 1 metro), even if it's private money. In 20-30 years of time, if demographics of Kochi change drastically, then we will still have an option to build a metro. And then it will be more viable and nobody will raise any objection like today.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 01:33 PM   #75
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The argument that some other city should get priority is moot, because:

We are not thinking of prioritizing. We have enough money to build metros in EVERY city. What we don't have is money to sink into UNVIABLE projects. So, the ONLY question that should arise should be

Is Metro VIABLE in Cochin.

In other words, the town of Malapuram can have a metro if it is VIABLE.

Various credible organizations, including DMRC have unanimously declared that it is viable. So, if anyone here is going to argue that it is unviable, they better be as credible as DMRC.

The only remaining question is HOW to fund it. The state govt wants govt funding, while the planning commission wants PPP. I am fine with either, because implementation wise, it doesn't matter.

If you still have doubt on the judgment of DMRC on the viability of metro, all you have to do is to board a bus (the dreaded red kind) that runs Aluva-Thripunithura and ask the passengers if they would ride the metro at the given fares.

And the feeling I get from the posts is that the forumers feel that Kochi got a favour from the government. I wonder why? Is the central govt the 'father-in-law' of Kochi? Or did Kochi pay bribe to the central govt? Or, did the Kochiites did 'sathyagraha' in front of the parliament?Why? Oh, Why such unfair favouritism?

The answer is, the people who are knowledgeable, and responsible to make policies and take action are convinced that a metro is viable.

Or, post away your conspiracy theories.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 02:21 PM   #76
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Quote:
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Ok here is my opinion as an urban planner:

Rather than investing $X amount of money on one metro corridor, it would make MUCH more sense to invest $X amount on cheaper forms of transit. BRTS, Light Rail, Monorail, etc.

If Kochi does build a couple metro corridors, there won't be much ridership since you need an integrated SYSTEM for mass transit to work. Having one or two metro corridors will be no use. Few people might use it, but it won't be financially viable.

It makes a LOT more sense for a city like Kochi to have a NETWORK of 10 (BRT, Monorail, etc ) corridors than to have 1 or 2 metro corridors.
I am not sure whether you are familiar with the topography/traffic patterns of Kochi even though you claim to have been in Kochi.

The perception that the Metro would serve only one ‘line’ and two parts is not true. And I do not think there is enough space/extent in Kochi to have atleast 3-4 lines, let alone 10 BRT lines.

Here Metro touches the major centres, CBD apart from connecting the suburbs on the north and south east.

Ernakulam-Aluva is a main traffic corridor in Kochi, connected by NH 47. Aluva is a municipality in Kochi U/A. The extent of the private city buses stops at Aluva. As Dileep said, Metro can take the traffic of people using private city buses to reach the city centre at Ernakulam.

The Metro then serves the CBD, through MG road. For those want to go to Marine Drive (it is parallel to MG Road, and it within one km distance from any point in MG road).

After touching Ernakulam South, the metro then touches the southern side of bypass at Vyttila and proceeds to Tripunithura, which is yet another municipality in Kochi U/A. And Ernakulam-Tripunithura is also another sector which sees daily office/work traffic.

So as many of you have thought, it is not providing connectivity from Aluva to Tripunithura. It is providing connectivity from the northern suburb to CBD, connectivity within CBD, CBD to Bypass and the connectivity from CBD to another suburb. Yes, it all happens within that 24 kms length.

I do not think any more lines can be possible here. Perhaps we can one more connection south to Fort Kochi/Aroor, but lots of backwaters there will be an issue.

@Kuttettan, hope it is clear for you also, it cannot be seen as a ‘single corridor’. And there is not enough space in Kochi to put all BRT lines, monorail, additional Metro lines etc.

Last edited by sudheeshnairs; December 11th, 2009 at 02:26 PM.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 04:18 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DileepKS View Post
Is Metro VIABLE in Cochin.

In other words, the town of Malapuram can have a metro if it is VIABLE.

Various credible organizations, including DMRC have unanimously declared that it is viable. So, if anyone here is going to argue that it is unviable, they better be as credible as DMRC.
I am not against metro in Kochi but I would like to say that the term "viable" is highly subjective. Being financially viable and economically viable is different.

None of the metros in this world is financially viable, not even Delhi metro. If you are thinking that Delhi metro is profitable, that's only operational profitability, i.e., its daily earnings are higher than its daily expenditure. But that does not includes the construction costs and the loan interest. If you read DMRC's income statement, then you will find that its depreciation alone is much higher than its revenues.

What is more important is economic viability because these things are not built for sake of doing business, they are social projects. But calculation of economic viability is very subjective. You don't know how much a person will save whether it's fuel or time or increase in his productivity because of less commuting stress, etc. by commuting in metro.

Recent studies have shown that Delhi metro is economically profitable. But I doubt same would be true in Kochi because I fear that ridership per km might not be that much high here to make it even economically viable, though I would like to be proved wrong. If Sudeesh is correct in saying that it passes through important areas and will have high ridership, then things might be different. I would just wish that it is viable and govt. approves it soon.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 04:49 PM   #78
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Nicely put Sudheesh. The proposed metro covers the two biggest arteries into the CBD. You stand at Edapally (the northeast border) and Vytila (southeast border) and look at the traffic going through, and that itself would convince you about the viability of the metro.

The other arteries are:

Kakkanad/Infopark-Palarivattom
Aroor-Vytila
FortKochi - CBD
Vypin-CBD
Cheranelloor-CBD

In fact the traffic density right at Aluva itself is pretty high, since there is commute from as far as Chalakudy. Same at all other terminal points. I am pretty sure that a 4 car train will have full seating at Aluva itself.

The viability I am talking about is 'viability as a metro', not 'business profitability'. But I do believe that the Aluva-hripunithura line can turn an operating profit.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 07:00 PM   #79
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@ sudheesh. Agreed that Aluva- Tpthara is the most crowded route for a bus. there r plenty of aluva- tripunithara via padma and via menaka plying now.

But what about connectivity to bypass which is turning out to be the commercial hub now with 3 malls (when Lulu is complete) , or to Infopark, Kakkanad, or to cheranelloor, eroor, fort kochi, thevara, kundanoor, maradu and all these areas also for which the buses are heavily populated.


For the past 2 yrs i've been involved in renting and leasing of property in Kochi ( just involved and have first hand info, not the expert) the most sought after commercial spaces r now in the by pass from Kundanoor to Edapally toll and most property development for housing coming on that route as well in Kakkanad.

By ur logic, Dublin wasted a lot of money, had they listened to u, only 1 line was required through center of Dublin

I am also not against Metro, more than happy to see public transport systems being implemented in diff parts of country, which is why we r in SSC.

BRTS corridoor neednt be always 12km long like the Ahmedabad one.

I started posting because it seemed like a discussion, now it seems more like u r authoritatively saying thats BRTS is not possible at all.

Could be - ur the champ in Infrastructure development
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Old December 12th, 2009, 02:19 AM   #80
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Well, what prevents from making BRTS trunks to link up with metro? (The issue of land aquisition notwithstanding). For example, A chain of busses from Infopark (or Pattimattom, as the UA grows) to Palarivattom metro station would serve the Kakkanad area.

Let me repeat. The only question is whether MEtro s viable or not, and that had been answered by the competent authorities. The following are NOT reasons for opposition:

1. BRTS: Impossible to do
2. Monorail: not enough capacity
3. Prioritization: Based on what?
4. Not enough coverage: True. Get more lines later.
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