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Greater Manchester Transport Projects Transport Matters For Greater Manchester and Surrounding Areas



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Old December 16th, 2009, 02:51 AM   #21
MattN
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It has been theoretically possible since 2000, but recently due to PTE lobbying made much easier. Authorities can develop 'quality contract' schemes and demonstrate that they provide value for money (I think it is still necessary to prove this to a government board), and then take control over network planning, fares and vehicle spec etc. SYPTE has been developing one for a while and now Metro look set to join in. Maybe you lot should too!

PS: Just as movement has been made on this, the Tories recently came out and said they will scrap them. Apparently their thoughts are that despite the patronage growth alongside London's approach, replicating this approach elsewhere is not guaranteed to produce the same results elsewhere so for that reason they are 'firmly opposed' to any attempt to try! Strange thought process. Presumably they are desperately clinging onto this failed policy to avoid any increase in public spending?
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Old December 16th, 2009, 10:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Dawz View Post
I doubt it Peeks because remember, GMPTE / GMITA won't have the power to regulate overall fare structures like TfL can in London.
Since GMPTE own metrolink, surely they must have the power to on metrolink. Seems like a bad idea to buy so many extra new ticket machines now.
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Old December 16th, 2009, 11:31 AM   #23
Priscilla QOTD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future.architect View Post
Since GMPTE own metrolink, surely they must have the power to on metrolink. Seems like a bad idea to buy so many extra new ticket machines now.
As has been mentioned before, the new ticket machines can be easily upgraded to accept smart card ticketing, so I don't think that's much of a worry.

You're right about Metrolink though. However, Metrolink doesn't account for that big a proportion of all journeys in GM - the big problem will be the bus operators.
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Old December 16th, 2009, 03:33 PM   #24
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I mentioned this in the non-Metrolink thread, but paragraph 22 of the Executive Summary in the strategy document for the smart ticketing proposals says:

Quote:
Current tools allow integrated tickets to be introduced through partnership working between operators. The Government fully expects to see greater integration and engagement led by operators and authorities, particularly in the major urban areas. This will create the sort of seamless travel Londoners can already enjoy. Some consultation responses suggested further steps may be required and the Government will therefore monitor the situation closely. Should there be no significant progress on integration it will consider further action, which could include legislation.
Which suggests that, even if the kind of total integration that exists under TfL is not an option, government will press for the kind of co-operation between different operators that means that some kind of common fare structure could become a reality. And presumably if operators are unwilling to sort it themselves, with the help and prompting of the local transport authority, the option of central government legislation means that it might be possible to reintroduce some degree of the regulation that was stripped away in the mid-'80s.

From Section 7:

Quote:
7.14
However, many consultation responses suggested more integrated ticketing would only be delivered with legislation to allow Local Authorities greater scope to compel participation in integrated ticket schemes or set the prices of tickets.

7.15
If there is not clear progress on the availability of competitively priced integrated tickets over the next year the Government will consider what further action, including possible legislation, is required.

Commitment 22:
To closely monitor progress and determine whether legislation may be necessary
Obviously the report is pretty vague, and who knows to what extent it will become a reality, especially with a change of government, but I don't think the situation is altogether hopeless.

Section 7 also discusses some of the competition issues raised by integrated ticketing (or lack thereof) under the current and proposed systems.
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Old December 16th, 2009, 07:29 PM   #25
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MEN.

Quote:
Manchester to get Oyster card system
December 15, 2009

GREATER Manchester is set for a £2.2m government windfall to help fund its own 'Oyster card'-style travel scheme.

The project - based on London's hugely-successful system - would let commuters across Greater Manchester pay for public transport with a single swipe of their card.

The passenger's 'ticket' would be stored in a microchip on a smart card or even on a phone or bank card. It could be topped up before travelling and used on all trams, trains and buses.

The scheme aims to reduce queues and hassle at the ticket office and so cut journey times.

Plans for an Oyster-style card in Greater Manchester were originally included in last year's transport innovation fund (TIF) bid.

That would have seen nearly £3bn spent improving public transport across the region in return for a peak-hour congestion charge of up to £5 a day.

Referendum

The package was rejected in a region-wide referendum last December.

But council chiefs in Greater Manchester have been looking at ways to revive the plan.

Now the government has stepped in to help with a cash boost for local smart ticket projects across the country.

Transport secretary Lord Adonis said England's nine largest urban areas – including Greater Manchester - will receive a £2.2m share of a £20m pot for the 'Smart and Integrated Ticketing Strategy'.

Transport bosses in each area must officially bid for the money, but the cash has already been earmarked for Greater Manchester, West Midlands, Tyne and Wear, Merseyside, South Yorkshire, and West Yorkshire, Nottingham, Leicester and Bristol.

The £2.2m provided by central government will not be enough to complete the scheme, and Greater Manchester Integrated Transport Authority (GMITA) and bus service providers must find additional funds.

GMITA said it was too early to comment on how much cash would be needed to complete the scheme.

Keith Whitmore, the chairman of GMITA, said the executive were in 'detailed discussions' with the Department for Transport over the scheme.

Strategy

He added: “Smart ticketing is an important element of Greater Manchester’s public transport future and forms part of a wider, integrated smart ticketing strategy for the city region.”

Lord Adonis said: “The benefits of smart ticketing to passengers are clear - quicker, easier and potentially better value journeys on trains, buses and trams, whichever company runs the service.

“We could even see the death of the paper ticket as direct payment and mobile phone technology picks up pace.”
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Old December 16th, 2009, 08:05 PM   #26
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touch-on touch-off

the strategy document does not discuss this specifically; but does identify Oyster as a "Pay-As-You-Go" system, which may in practice mean the same thing.

It specifically reserves judgement on whether the national ITSO shouold have "Pay as You Go" functionality - basically saying that it would be very attractive to users in principle, but might turn out not to be practicable

Quote:
The proposition of a national pre-pay product, similar to the Oyster Pay As You Go system, which can be used on all public transport in England, is on the face of it a very attractive concept. However, there would be considerable technical and commercial challenges to introducing such a system, and existing e-money arrangements, or EMV contactless payments, may be better placed to deliver similar functionality.
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Old December 17th, 2009, 02:03 AM   #27
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The govt could try re-regulating the buses and nationalising the trains again, and then I'm sure it would be easy enough. Can't see either this govt or the next doing that though.
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Old February 24th, 2010, 09:32 PM   #28
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Things are moving...



From Computing

http://www.computing.co.uk/computing...-presses-ahead

The Greater Manchester passenger transport executive (Gmpte) is seeking a vendor to provide the core technology supporting its planned smartcard scheme.

Gmpte wants a managed, hosted platform to run and deliver the region’s public transport smart ticketing services under a contract that could be worth between £5m and £30m.

The project encompasses tasks that include systems design, hosting, back-office hardware and software, and integration to the authority’s host operator processing and card management systems.

Provision of validators and handheld devices to read the smartcards is also mentioned in the tender, as is the supply of retail systems integration to ticket vending machines and other retail systems.

According to the contract notice, Gmpte reserves the “unilateral right” to extend the scope of the scheme to cover the bus and rail network in Greater Manchester, as well as parking and cycle schemes, and any other ticketing related activity.

Interested parties must submit proposals by 25 March.


http://www.publictenders.net/tender/48858

PB
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Old February 26th, 2010, 08:43 PM   #29
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Smart Ticketing - GMITA (15Jan10)

The latest Capital Projects meeting (15Jan10) stated the following:

Metrolink

2.2 The proposed solution for Metrolink will involve passengers checking in and out of the system using platform mounted validators, similar to the system on the non gated elements of the under and over ground railway in London.

2.3 It is proposed that an ITSO smartcard and bank credit and debit card smart ticketing capability will be delivered for Metrolink on a phased basis, commencing for at least one line from summer 2011.

The use of bank card ticketing provides an alternative card media to be used for authorisation and payment for travel. This functionality has been operated successfully in New York and Kaohsiung (Taiwan); and TfL (London) and RATP (Paris) are both actively planning bank card ticketing as part of their next phase of smart ticketing implementations. Transport for London (TfL) have also offered to work with and support GMPTE in the use of this technology. In addition, the DfT have indicated their support for bank card ticketing and the development costs associated with bank card functionality are eligible for the DfT funding announced in December as part of the overall ticketing scheme.

A phased approach will enable us to validate the technology, and the business rules associated with the required back office functionality, whilst implementing the solution across the whole of the Metrolink network.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #30
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Quote:
at least one line from summer 2011.
Get ready Altrincham? Land of the plastic card?
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Old February 27th, 2010, 02:04 AM   #31
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Eccles makes more sense to trial as its shorter and less busy.

How many and where the sensors are placed is going to be very important. At its simplest just having one at each pedestrian entrance/exit of the station makes sense. On the more busy stations however numbers become as important as placement. Say a busy peak time station and 100 people get off (im thinking worst case here) it takes 20 seconds to use a machine on average and you want everyone out within 3 minutes. In that situation you would need at least 10.

I want this to work but I forsee so many problems, if their not connected to a ticket barrier and it doesnt swipe properly how many will notice? How many will forget anyway? are we going to have a huge row of Ugly Bollards at stations for people to swipe on?

Some pictures:





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Old February 27th, 2010, 02:39 PM   #32
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Bollards at stations would be pointless without a constant guard there anyway. People would cross the tracks to get onto other platforms. If a handful of people jump the barriers in a subway or underground, which they do, then loads will do it on an open air transit system. Other than that, for regular users, I can see it working with the correct tech in place. The big question is if after a long journey, whether you remember to swipe out which I presume most people would forget.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 02:46 PM   #33
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Sorry I said bollard because I couldnt think of a better description of the stand alone scanners pictured above.

Looking again at that picture tickets half price for Oyster users? hell of a discount though that £1 has been changed recently.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 04:20 PM   #34
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I guess ticket inspectors on the Met will have hand-held card readers an can look at your journey history as per TfL Oyster.

If you've forgotten to swipe in you won't be in possesion of a valid ticket therefore liable to a fine/prosecution just as if you hadn't bought a paper ticket.

If you forget to swipe out could probably be charged the full fare to the last stop on that line. i.e get on in Alty to go to Sale, forget to swipe out and get charged for going all the way to Bury! at the end of running, the computer would collate all the swipe-ins that have no corresponing swipe outs and work out the max fair chargable and charge that.

Stops (other than underground and mainline stations) in London seam to manage with only a small handfull of readers-on-bollards as the picture above suggest
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Old February 27th, 2010, 05:41 PM   #35
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Their going to have to change the fare structure when the new lines start opening next year, no way can they keep adding a zone for every 3 stops on each line, will need to replace it with some kind of flat xx stops = £x pricing
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Old February 28th, 2010, 01:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
....important as placement. Say a busy peak time station and 100 people get off (im thinking worst case here) it takes 20 seconds to use a machine on average and you want everyone out within 3 minutes. In that situation you would need at least 10.

I want this to work.....

Worst case? You're telling me! Your figure of 20 seconds to touch out is a massive overestimate. How can it possibly take that long?

On LU, you have to touch out and then go through the barrier, and that takes all of 3 seconds; we won't even have a barrier so it's probably more like 2 seconds! I think one or two readers at each end of the platform will be sufficient.
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Old February 28th, 2010, 01:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Priscilla QOTD View Post
Worst case? You're telling me! Your figure of 20 seconds to touch out is a massive overestimate. How can it possibly take that long?

On LU, you have to touch out and then go through the barrier, and that takes all of 3 seconds; we won't even have a barrier so it's probably more like 2 seconds! I think one or two readers at each end of the platform will be sufficient.
Also those with travelcards stored on their tickets won't need to touch out, which has to be a large proportion of those travelling in the peak and one that's likely to grow if smart ticketing is introduced.
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Old February 28th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #38
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I don't know how long it takes to touch out, but I think 100 people every 3 minutes is going to be pretty much average after the extensions are made. I did some estimates based on what little data I could find on passenger statistics, and I think after the extension there will be, on average over the morning peak, about 25 people per minute arriving or leaving busy stations like say Picc gardens. That's average, probably in the middle of the peak you'll get 40 or 50 per minute. You'll need enough to cope with that.
Your estimate of 2 seconds each is all very good - but it relies on everyone having their card ready and eager to swipe, if someone has to spend 20 second fumbling around looking for their card, or, god forbid, if one of the machines is broken, then queues to swipe out could rapidly build up.

Last edited by Gerbil; February 28th, 2010 at 04:37 PM.
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Old February 28th, 2010, 06:05 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
if someone has to spend 20 second fumbling around looking for their card...
..they would get pushed out of the way!
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Old February 28th, 2010, 11:48 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthenew View Post
..they would get pushed out of the way!
Exactly We're presumingly not talking about installing barriers across the whole system (again), so the touch in-touch out procedure is going to be a fairly swift one. If it is anything like on Croydon Tramlink, there is enough room to swerve round anyone dilly dallying at the post and swish your wallet over the reader. Plus as Cherguevara suggest, the vast majority of people at the busiest times (sporting events excepted) will be using stored travelcards for their journeys which won't require either touching in or out.

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