NZ | Military Thread

[Richard7666]

Originally Posted by CapitolOz

There is an English speaking country in our region of about 4 million people that is a close ally with Australia. We regularly conduct military exercises with them and we look to them as a key ally and partner that would fight alongside us in a regional conflict.

They have 40 old Skyhawk jet fighters in storage.

They also have 143 fighter jets currently in service (the latest F15 variants plus F16 and F5), 60 transport helos, 20 Apache attack helos, 10 C130s plus AWACs and air refuelling tankers.

Their army is 72,000 strong, they have 96 leopard 2 main battle tanks, 372 light tanks, 1,122 infantry fighting vehicles, 1,250 armoured personnel carriers plus the latest self propelled artillery.

Their navy has 6 submarines, 6 of the latest generation stealth frigates and 6 corvettes all armed with Harpoon anti-ship missiles, 12 offshore patrol craft, 4 large amphibious dock ships and 4 high tech minesweepers.

I’l l give you a hint it’s not New Zealand – it’s Singapore. And Malaysia is not far behind. They also have some of the most capable fighter aircraft in the region, main battle tanks and a submarine equipped navy.

Although the ANZAC tradition is a common history we shared , it’s just that – it’s history. It’s a sad fact but it’s no longer central to Australia’s (or the regions for that matter) current security alliances.

I guess it all depends on what part of the world you see yourself in. NZ looks only as far as its pacific island brothers. A couple of frigates and a handful of Hercules and you can make yourself out to be the big brother to the smaller nations in your backyard.

Australia on the other hand sees itself as part of the SE Asian region. Some of this comes from the fact our cities were bombed and shelled and we were threatened with invasion. NZ wasn’t.

So our attitude to defense is different. SE Asian nations know where the real threat is - northern Asia (China to be precise) – and the real numbers of military hardware we face.
Which is why to us the idea of selling off 30 of so of the few NZLAVs you have is sheer lunacy.

BTW anyone in NZ who thinks Indonesia is seen as a threat by Australians is living in the past. Our navies and air forces exercise together. We are more likely to be fighting alongside them in a conflict than against them.

When we want some military muscle to back us up we now look northwards not across the Tasman.

The world has moved on. Sorry guys you had a chance but you missed the boat 20 years ago.

The Reds are coming, the Reds are coming!!!!1

Originally Posted by Easty

We need to spend more...and cut back on the waste in student loans.
1 .5 billion a year over 10 years in key areas ( wont bore with detail)
Would ensure we have the smart technology...The actual NZD armed force personal are leading world class.Any person that knows the military ( inside) anywhere in the world would agree with that statement.
Saudi spends on its defence 4x what Australia does ..it has a population of 10 million nationals.....That money does not make them fine armed force personal...I makes them armed personal with a lot of tech

Its when you combine the both with appropriate thought and vision...you become a respected force.

Lol what? Yeah let's waste money on useless hardware we're never going to use instead of tertiary education (not saying the incentives around loans couldn't be tightened up but that's another story)

[KLK]

Originally Posted by CapitolOz

Good to see the high standard of debate about NZ's shrinking defence continues. LOL Can't say I'm surprised.

And that's the issue, really.

You can't expect an informed debate when the instigators (the pro-Australia defence policy) base their position on flawed assumptions, ridiculous comparisons and shifting goal posts.

Comparing us with Singapore when the only thing we have in common is population size? Great. I look forward to your comments on Australia's pathetic defense spending in comparison with, say, Israel, a country 1/3rd your population size. But you wont have - different region, different peceptions, different threats, different accessibility by those threats.

You can't belittle NZ for being a small, insignificant, pacific island nation isolated from the rest of the world.......actually, you can - because its all true. Hence you've "moved on" to bigger priorities. I would expect nothing less if I were in your shoes.

But if you take that position today, don't turn around tomorrow and act like we have acquired 16m extra people (and the military funding from taxes that goes along with it), and moved to the Malacca straits in the blink of an eye.

Make up your mind.

[KLK]

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

What exactly are NZ's priorities? To pretend that aggression is a thing of the past and hide behind the skirts of Australia and the US?

As a Kiwi, I'm not suggesting that all--or even most--of Australia's defence concerns match ours. What I'm saying is that since NZ is a small player, and even if we were wealthier and had smart defence force, that we would still need to rely upon allies in the event of aggression.

The issue is how we contribute to a common alliance, not if we can outspend any particular nation or follow an ally blindly.

You make a very good point - the need for a smart, mobile defence force. And we do have one. And it contributes admirably to conflicts all over the world, as well as at home.

But because we don't spend as much as the Australian Ministry of Defence would like in response to "the region's" (read: Australia's) threats, we end up with ridiculous, emotive comments like those inferring we don't contribute, or suggesting we are "hiding behind the skirts of the Australian and the US".

Anyway, I wonder how Australia and the US defence forces feel about NZers telling them they wear skirts....

[Easty]

Originally Posted by Richard7666

The Reds are coming, the Reds are coming!!!!1




Lol what? Yeah let's waste money on useless hardware we're never going to use instead of tertiary education (not saying the incentives around loans couldn't be tightened up but that's another story)

ROTFL what!Student loans is a fast ..a Labour bribe thats costing this country billions in non paid loans of primarily white middle to upper class students and families who used it ( only a percentage on direct education needs) before moving on to their OE
The debt is 4 -5 x bigger ( 13 billion) than anything on the table than say for maori settlement.. or the 2 billion spent of defence annually!

Tell me ...if you valued your home or car...would you lock it or have a security system?...same argument here re useless hardware

[Nuwanda]

Originally Posted by KLK

You make a very good point - the need for a smart, mobile defence force. And we do have one. And it contributes admirably to conflicts all over the world, as well as at home.

But because we don't spend as much as the Australian Ministry of Defence would like in response to "the region's" (read: Australia's) threats, we end up with ridiculous, emotive comments like those inferring we don't contribute, or suggesting we are "hiding behind the skirts of the Australian and the US".

Anyway, I wonder how Australia and the US defence forces feel about NZers telling them they wear skirts....

We have a smart, mobile defence force? LAVs, new boats that can't perform their roles? It's a joke.

NZers tend to get a tad touchy when they're criticised. Thin skins. It's a cultural problem. That's why the level of debate online is sophomoric and adolescent at times.

NZ spends 1.1% of GDP on defence, Australia, 1.8%. Considering Australia is about 1/3 wealthier than NZ, I'd say that makes things pretty much the same re commitment.

[KLK]

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

We have a smart, mobile defence force? LAVs, new boats that can't perform their roles? It's a joke.

NZers tend to get a tad touchy when they're criticised. Thin skins. It's a cultural problem. That's why the level of debate online is sophomoric and adolescent at times.

NZ spends 1.1% of GDP on defence, Australia, 1.8%. Considering Australia is about 1/3 wealthier than NZ, I'd say that makes things pretty much the same re commitment.

Both sides of the debate are idiotic at times. And I think you'll find most countries aren't too flash at taking criticism from foreign quarters. 6yrs working in Sydney taught me that.

But looking at your last paragraph, I am assuming your issue is not with our level of committment, but rather the quality? That's a completely different argument.

[NapierMan]

This would be a good discussion, but - as some of you forget, there is no money, and I would prefer the government spent money on things that make NZ a worth while place to live - health, education, and such, to create a high living standard. The other point, about being realistic - is that there is simply no threat of a mass scale invasion, for Nz or Australia. I challenge you to name the country that would be STUPID enough to do so. Both countries being allied to America any country including China would not be so STUPID to risk their trade and economy with a economic and military superpower like America. We are not hiding behind America, but the fact remains that China is more likely to buy NZ than invade it, this is the 21st century, NOT 1942, its a money empire now - NOT land. The risks of invading Aus are too great, so I say again, if China does not invade Aus, what do we have that they so desperately want? GEt Real. NZ cant afford luxuries when there are plenty of other issues that need to be addressed. Anyone who goes around saying Nz should be more aggressive and have intimidating hardware is unrealistic- is either a serious dreamer or has a really small cock.

[Richard7666]

Originally Posted by Easty

ROTFL what!Student loans is a fast ..a Labour bribe thats costing this country billions in non paid loans of primarily white middle to upper class students and families who used it ( only a percentage on direct education needs) before moving on to their OE
The debt is 4 -5 x bigger ( 13 billion) than anything on the table than say for maori settlement.. or the 2 billion spent of defence annually!

Tell me ...if you valued your home or car...would you lock it or have a security system?...same argument here re useless hardware

Lock it with what? Bluetak? That's what the effect would be considering the power of the any country with the ability to invade us. When our relations deteriorate with anyone to the point war seems possible, maybe then we should think about military. As this will likely not be anytime in the forseeable future, it's a waste of money. The developed world is very interdependant these days.

Also...loans are paid back. They're loans!

[Easty]

Originally Posted by NapierMan

This would be a good discussion, but - as some of you forget, there is no money, and I would prefer the government spent money on things that make NZ a worth while place to live - health, education, and such, to create a high living standard. The other point, about being realistic - is that there is simply no threat of a mass scale invasion, for Nz or Australia. I challenge you to name the country that would be STUPID enough to do so. Both countries being allied to America any country including China would not be so STUPID to risk their trade and economy with a economic and military superpower like America. We are not hiding behind America, but the fact remains that China is more likely to buy NZ than invade it, this is the 21st century, NOT 1942, its a money empire now - NOT land. The risks of invading Aus are too great, so I say again, if China does not invade Aus, what do we have that they so desperately want? GEt Real. NZ cant afford luxuries when there are plenty of other issues that need to be addressed. Anyone who goes around saying Nz should be more aggressive and have intimidating hardware is unrealistic- is either a serious dreamer or has a really small cock.

A lot of your comments make sence.However it is a good discussion.As long as people dont go into La.. La.. land with their pan asian/global conspirency theories..
My point here is.NZ can afford an enhanced capability with more focused spending and an increase of 500 million a year for 10 years. My argument is that this amount is a drop in the ocean compared to the wasted money on student loans ...as an example
Why do we need to upgrade certain parts of our defence.?
Its certainly not a forseeable land invasion by Asia as some nerd in Brisbane has commented on.
Its to ensure we have a mobile highly skilled and properly armed defence force - that can partake in global hotspots such as Afghanistan - as and when requiered.with an intergrated army ( we do well already..however some better firepower) and airforce with better uplift.To do this properly, our equipment must also be able to intergrate with other International force's..such as USA/Canada and UK/NATO...which does mean continued investment .Closer to home it would be the ozzies.
This does not mean a force of significant size. But a force with the right equipment.. that will help make a difference..

[Dimethyltryptamine]

You don't need to increase funding or have the latest equipment to integrate with foreign forces. Cooperation is a start, but that went out the window when you guys didn't allow the Yanks to dock their nuclear ships in NZ ports. Ciao ANZUS

[KIWIKAAS]

What are you going on about?
Last time I looked the cooperation between the NZ Armed forces, Australia and several Asian countries was doing just fine. In Afganistan NZ and US forces cooperate too.
However misguided the Nuclear ban was, it hasn't hampered NZ participation in multinational operations.

[Easty]

Originally Posted by Dimethyltryptamine

You don't need to increase funding or have the latest equipment to integrate with foreign forces. Cooperation is a start, but that went out the window when you guys didn't allow the Yanks to dock their nuclear ships in NZ ports. Ciao ANZUS

mmmm your stuck in the 90's with your comments
The relationship with the US is going very nicely across all aspects of the military

[KIWIKAAS]

Originally Posted by CapitolOz

There is an English speaking country in our region of about 4 million people that is a close ally with Australia. We regularly conduct military exercises with them and we look to them as a key ally and partner that would fight alongside us in a regional conflict.

They have 40 old Skyhawk jet fighters in storage.

They also have 143 fighter jets currently in service (the latest F15 variants plus F16 and F5), 60 transport helos, 20 Apache attack helos, 10 C130s plus AWACs and air refuelling tankers.

Their army is 72,000 strong, they have 96 leopard 2 main battle tanks, 372 light tanks, 1,122 infantry fighting vehicles, 1,250 armoured personnel carriers plus the latest self propelled artillery.

Their navy has 6 submarines, 6 of the latest generation stealth frigates and 6 corvettes all armed with Harpoon anti-ship missiles, 12 offshore patrol craft, 4 large amphibious dock ships and 4 high tech minesweepers.

I’l l give you a hint it’s not New Zealand – it’s Singapore. And Malaysia is not far behind. They also have some of the most capable fighter aircraft in the region, main battle tanks and a submarine equipped navy.

Although the ANZAC tradition is a common history we shared , it’s just that – it’s history. It’s a sad fact but it’s no longer central to Australia’s (or the regions for that matter) current security alliances.

I guess it all depends on what part of the world you see yourself in. NZ looks only as far as its pacific island brothers. A couple of frigates and a handful of Hercules and you can make yourself out to be the big brother to the smaller nations in your backyard.

Australia on the other hand sees itself as part of the SE Asian region. Some of this comes from the fact our cities were bombed and shelled and we were threatened with invasion. NZ wasn’t.

So our attitude to defense is different. SE Asian nations know where the real threat is - northern Asia (China to be precise) – and the real numbers of military hardware we face.
Which is why to us the idea of selling off 30 of so of the few NZLAVs you have is sheer lunacy.

BTW anyone in NZ who thinks Indonesia is seen as a threat by Australians is living in the past. Our navies and air forces exercise together. We are more likely to be fighting alongside them in a conflict than against them.

When we want some military muscle to back us up we now look northwards not across the Tasman.

The world has moved on. Sorry guys you had a chance but you missed the boat 20 years ago.

A couple of frontier settlements hardly constitutes 'our cities'

Comparing Singapore and N.Z.'s geopolitical situations is beyond rediculous.

N.Z. is a Pacific nation and should focus on what is appropriate for that region (ie: maritime patrol, distaster relief, humanitarian aid, search and rescue).

[Dimethyltryptamine]

I think it was actually the 80s...

Nicely, maybe, but military ties are still limited.

Despite signs of rapprochement in recent years, military relationships with the US remain limited, although senior US officials have been complimentary about New Zealand's contributions to the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts. New Zealand retains a close bi-lateral defence relationship with Australia.

While you've been commended for your efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, does USA care so much as to compete in war games or anything of that nature with NZ?

[Easty]

Originally Posted by Dimethyltryptamine

I think it was actually the 80s...

Nicely, maybe, but military ties are still limited.



While you've been commended for your efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, does USA care so much as to compete in war games or anything of that nature with NZ?

yes?

Te Kaha and Endevour have just returned from 2 months in North America
First - the Canadian navy review and then to USA for visits to San Fran and defence manouvers with USA Navy

Your comments are starting to appear lame

[Dimethyltryptamine]

So you're trying to tell me that everything is peachy between the US and NZ? Lol, okay. I mean, NZ is vital to any and all future wars in the Pacific.

[Easty]

Originally Posted by Dimethyltryptamine

So you're trying to tell me that everything is peachy between the US and NZ? Lol, okay. I mean, NZ is vital to any and all future wars in the Pacific.

LOL can some one please check if there are any lights on in Brisbane ..or your just a sorry inbred ass that needs hallucinogenic drugs (Dimethyltryptamine)to ...LOL!

[KIWIKAAS]

Originally Posted by Dimethyltryptamine

So you're trying to tell me that everything is peachy between the US and NZ? Lol, okay. I mean, NZ is vital to any and all future wars in the Pacific.

Oh please.
NZ plays a role in it's region, with participation in multinational operations.
That would seem to be a very appropriate role for a small Pacific nation

[NapierMan]

Bahahahaa, war in the pacific......I laugh at your nerdynees Dimethyltryptamine. Someone needs a girlfriend i think. America has described the Nuclear issue as an old relic, and we are once again firm allies. America is actually applauding our stance on the issue, being invited to nuclear summits purely on our long standing policy - why else would we be invited when we do not have any.

Yes, it is vital that all our equipment is kept up to standard, and we have the equipment to function properly for peacekeeping and humanitarian aid.... we could even do with a small air combat force to aid peacekeeping. We do not however, need to prepare for all out war.

I dont know why, but there seem to be a lot of "END OF THE WORLD" supporters out there, mostly nerds who watch too much 2012, The Day after tomorrow, Armageddon, War of the Worlds and Independence Day type movies, I say to you all GET A LIFE.

[Easty]

Originally Posted by NapierMan

Bahahahaa, war in the pacific......I laugh at your nerdynees Dimethyltryptamine. Someone needs a girlfriend i think. America has described the Nuclear issue as an old relic, and we are once again firm allies. America is actually applauding our stance on the issue, being invited to nuclear summits purely on our long standing policy - why else would we be invited when we do not have any.

Yes, it is vital that all our equipment is kept up to standard, and we have the equipment to function properly for peacekeeping and humanitarian aid.... we could even do with a small air combat force to aid peacekeeping. We do not however, need to prepare for all out war.

I dont know why, but there seem to be a lot of "END OF THE WORLD" supporters out there, mostly nerds who watch too much 2012, The Day after tomorrow, Armageddon, War of the Worlds and Independence Day type movies, I say to you all GET A LIFE.

Cheers ..thought I was the only kiwi on this forum...my god there scary! and sad!