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Old November 15th, 2010, 02:09 PM   #1101
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I would expect £300m for the line nowadays, Peel may put up £100m considering it links several of their developments, Councils may put up £20-£30m but Im unsure where another commercial partner may come from.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 02:22 PM   #1102
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£300m ... can someone explain where the bulk of those costs go please?
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Old November 15th, 2010, 02:49 PM   #1103
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£300m ... can someone explain where the bulk of those costs go please?
A lot goes on utility diversions. Apparently in Europe the utility company pays to do this, not the transport authority.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 03:05 PM   #1104
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Next major component is bridges, viaducts and over/under passes.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 04:38 PM   #1105
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I would expect £300m for the line nowadays, Peel may put up £100m considering it links several of their developments, Councils may put up £20-£30m but Im unsure where another commercial partner may come from.
If they are going to carry on beyond the Trafford Centre to Port Salford etc; then certainly. But the current phase 3b seems to be running within budget at around £25m per km - albeint that most of the construciton so far has been along former rail alignments.

£50m per km is approaching the cost levels found in the Edinburgh tram construction - and is well more than twice that of any system in continental Europe. If the tenders come in at this level, then I cannot see the line ever being built at all.

I can see the advantage of the Trafford Centre line to Peel; since it will mean that tenants in the Trafford centre will be able to recruit staff who don't have access to car transport. But I cannot see it running at an operating profit - unlike the airport or East Didsbury lines. Trams, unlike trains, generate considerable passenger occupancy throughour the day, and this is why they make more money, even when their peak capacity may be lower. But there are few off-peak traffic generators along the Trafford Park route (unless you count the occasional home footie match). And in the absence of profitability, there does not seem any obvious business model by whichr Peel and any partners they may recruit will be able to monetarise any benefits they receive, such as to repay their loan finance.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #1106
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But there are few off-peak traffic generators along the Trafford Park route (unless you count the occasional home footie match). And in the absence of profitability, there does not seem any obvious business model by whichr Peel and any partners they may recruit will be able to monetarise any benefits they receive, such as to repay their loan finance.
Won't shoppers be arriving during different times of the day along the TC line from various points on the Metrolink network?
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Old November 15th, 2010, 05:41 PM   #1107
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Won't shoppers be arriving during different times of the day along the TC line from various points on the Metrolink network?
Shoppers don't tend to be big tram users; the advantage of the extra speed provided by a tram will be nullified if you have to carry a heavy shopping bag from your home to the tram stop. Shoippers prefer cars or buses. Off peak tram traffic is generated by enterprises that employ staff other than a standard 9 - 5.30; airports, hospitals, colleges, hotels, bars, restaurants. There are some of the latter in the Trafford Centre itself, but very few elsewhere along the route.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 05:50 PM   #1108
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Off peak tram traffic is generated by enterprises that employ staff other than a standard 9 - 5.30
Don't forget us old farts who can use our travel passes after 9:30.... though I don't think Metrolink make much money out of us....
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Old November 15th, 2010, 06:07 PM   #1109
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Don't forget us old farts who can use our travel passes after 9:30.... though I don't think Metrolink make much money out of us....
But do you use Metrolink for shopping?
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Old November 15th, 2010, 06:49 PM   #1110
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I use the tram to go shopping in town. The odd bag with a pair of jeans or shirt in isn't too hard to carry

Many users of the TC line could be Trafford Park users, who may work shifts or non 9am-5m hours (many factories operate a 7am-3/4pm working day)
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Old November 15th, 2010, 07:16 PM   #1111
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But do you use Metrolink for shopping?
Not at the moment but I live in Droylsden, about 5 minutes walk from the future Edge Lane stop on the Ashton line, so I'll be using it a lot more come 2012.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 07:28 PM   #1112
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Johnny’s Big Bang

OLDHAM ROCHDALE LINE PART 3

Queen’s Road Depot chords and the Smedley Viaduct

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...7&page=56#1112

xx images, updated to July 2012

In railway days the Oldham Loop ran round in a circle, serving Oldham, Rochdale and the intermediate townships in both directions. The two arms of the loop came together at Thorpes Bridge, just West of the former stations at Newton Heath and Dean Lane, and then continued on a common section via the direct route and the long-disappeared station at Miles Platting. This was the layout prior to Dr Beeching in the 1960s. The track arrangements between Victoria and Thorpes Bridge allow for several alternative routes between the two, and Metrolink opted for a combination of them which would take in part of the Bury line; allow access to Queen’s Road Depot; and create a new stop at Monsall, a densely populated area of Council type accommodation, where there had never been a station before, and which in practice has subsequently attracted some new residential development.:-



The next diagram shows in more detail the various route options in railway days. For the above reasons, and also because the entry point from the city centre was to be on the South side of the Station, Metrolink within Victoria has been restricted to the alignment used by its immediate predecessor on the Bury line, which had already been fully segregated from other lines because of its non-standard 3rd rail electrification. Historically for local trains on the ‘slow’ lines, it is the route which veers to the right soon after leaving Victoria, then immediately swings left under the main line via the Collyhurst tunnel. Heading almost due North towards Bury, this line now makes three encounters with other branches - firstly, the Smedley Viaduct (not shown on the previous diagram) swings off to the right towards Newton Heath CCE Waste Disposal depot; then the line overpasses what was the longer distance route from the through platforms at Victoria to Newton Heath via the Cheetham Hill Loop and Red Bank carriage sidings; and thirdly a chord from the same line comes in from the left. Queen’s Road Metrolink depot fan was created on this chord, which was also severed from the Cheetham Hill line - with the effect that the depot has only ever had a North-facing connection towards Bury.:-



In this pre-Metrolink shot facing North-West, the belching diesels are on the Cheetham Hill Loop – Newton Heath line, with the Smedley viaduct in the foreground and the Bury line overpassing the diesels. Queen’s Road runs across the top of the picture, and the depot will occupy the line through the left hand arch underneath it, joining the Bury line further North beyond the bridge :-


pic c/- Trafford Bar

A steam express heads over Smedley Viaduct on the ‘fast lines’ for Yorkshire in 1952 :-


c/- Ex-Manc

By 1985 the quadruple track had been reduced to double, but this did not inhibit a diverted express :-


c/- VDB

Here’s another overview of the whole area, taken from above Victoria immediately before the opening of Metrolink in 1991, which shows all three of the alignments East of Victoria, the Bury line having already been given over to Metrolink together with Millbank siding. You can just make out the brand new blue & grey Metrolink depot top right, and its adjacent embankment which offers good viewpoints :-



During the early days of Metrolink, trains to the waste disposal depot continued to use the Cheetham Hill Loop line, still fenced off right to left alongside the depot as seen in this next overview from 1992, facing South-East. Victoria is off to the right via Red Bank; the Bury line comes in from Collyhurst top right, towards the depot connection out of shot bottom left; and the dark Smedley viaduct, now disused and overgrown, runs off towards Newton Heath centre left, joining the Red Bank line just out of shot :-


2 pics c/- John Senior & Eric Ogden, Metrolink Commemorative Volume 1992, TPC ISBN 086317 155 9

A quick glance to the right from this point can reveal some exciting views of the Manchester Cityscape in certain lights and conditions :-



The original logo of the depot stands proudly at the head of Queen’s Road :-



On a sunny October day in 2009, a Bury tram speeds past the Smedley viaduct and the depot, overseen by the three towers of Monsall in the background. Phase 3a of Metrolink was about to go ahead, and a new station would be created in that residential area, about halfway between Smedley and Thorpes Bridge :-



The next shot shows how the Red Bank line alongside the depot had been abandoned by the railway in the 1990s, the waste disposal trains now using only the main line through Miles Platting, and bringing to an end all heavy rail involvement in the Smedley and Queens Road area. The Red Bank line itself is now fairly densely overgrown for most of its length, but the Metrolink depot tracks have expanded across it for stabling purposes and to create a new depot access towards Oldham, underpassing the Bury line. Over the years the depot has also grown incrementally further back along the old line towards Victoria behind the camera: this was its Southern limit in 2009 :-



By October 2009, at the other end of this old rail alignment, now encompassed within the depot, the stub ends of new tracks could be seen which will set out as depot access roads towards Oldham, underpassing the Bury line to gain the junction with the Smedley viaduct :-



The two tram lines can therefore cross each other at line speed on discrete alignments (i.e. not simply as a flying junction) – I think the only place where this will happen on Metrolink :-



December 2009, looking back towards Manchester, the Smedley Viaduct needs considerable remedial work, but will offer fine views of the city, as a M5000 banana comes down from Bury to merge with it towards Victoria :-





On the viaduct itself, the spades were going in and work was commencing, as the phallic tower of HMP Strangeways looks over in the background :-



By February 2010, the viaduct was sheeted up and ready for action :-





Looking across from the depot, much activity can now be seen under the bridge :-



May 2010 – a view back under the Bury line at bananas stabled in the depot :-



Tracklaying started during a weekend possession in August 2010 near Irk Valley Junction, where the Bury and Oldfham lines diverge :-





Some full transverse brackets were also installed to support the catenary near the junction :-



Work continued on preparing the trackbed at the Collyhurst Road end of the viaduct :-



The new brackets can be seen approaching below the cityscape :-



After the possession, a ride on the Bury line afforded a close-up view of the new track, albeit not yet connected :-





More cab views in September 2010 :-





The catenary itself had already been strung for a short distance beyond Irk Valley :-



Overhead poles were the next item to appear along the depot access viaduct :-



November 2010 saw the arrival of a crossover to access the depot connection :-



The completed transverse bracket arms stand out from a distance, and form a new feature on the horizon :-



April 2011 and the Springtime brought a touch of shining copper to the catenary :-



These views from Queen’s Road and Smedley Road in June 2011 shows how difficult it would be to create a stop on the Oldham line here :-




c/- sorry, lost link

In November 2011, the final tweaking of the access link to Queens Road depot. Trains running out of service from Oldham (presumably having shown the destination ‘Monsall’) will take the crossover to this facing turnout on the wrong-road, which then furcates into two before it passes under the Bury line and into the depot area :-



This shot facing the other way in December 2011 gives a good appreciation of the different levels, as the Smedley viaduct makes a chord from the Bury line down to the Oldham line :-



A temporary halt to proceedings in February 2012 as the shape of the access alignments stand out in the snow :-



Work soon starts again as passing bananas alert the gang at the Irk ;-







Back on the Bury line in March 2012, a new signal aspect is about to be unveiled at Irk Valley for the turnout to Oldham :-



And at last the rails are connected here in April 2012 :-

May 2012 and it’s time for testing to begin, as one of the first bananas emerges tentatively from the depot :-





Here’s a dozen more pics of the testing and driver training which continued throughout May 2012 :-























Finally the big day arrived on 13 June 2012 The O for Oldham lit up for the first time and away we went!! :-



Next stop Monsall! :-



Continues in part 4 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...7&page=57#1126

Pictures from first day of operation to Mumps Temporary :

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Last edited by Johnny de Rivative; March 27th, 2013 at 06:13 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 11:30 PM   #1113
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Shoppers don't tend to be big tram users; the advantage of the extra speed provided by a tram will be nullified if you have to carry a heavy shopping bag from your home to the tram stop. Shoippers prefer cars or buses.
Sheffield's busiest section of route is Cathedral (what some might consider the centre-ish of the retail area) and Meadowhall. Despite a plethora of competing express and service buses, as well as 'free' parking at Meadowhall.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 01:01 AM   #1114
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Yeah but Metrolinks least busy section is the City Centre itself, at least in the mornings, its busier in late afternoon/evenings.

For my £300m estimate im factoring in the viaduct from Pomona to ground level, crossing the Ship canal, large percentage of street running which is more expensive and finally inflation over the last two decades and into the near future.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 09:46 AM   #1115
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Shoppers don't tend to be big tram users; the advantage of the extra speed provided by a tram will be nullified if you have to carry a heavy shopping bag from your home to the tram stop. Shoippers prefer cars or buses. Off peak tram traffic is generated by enterprises that employ staff other than a standard 9 - 5.30; airports, hospitals, colleges, hotels, bars, restaurants. There are some of the latter in the Trafford Centre itself, but very few elsewhere along the route.
Hehe Next time you are in Sheffield check out the Meadowhall trams and you'll see how busy trams to shopping centres are! This is the only route in Sheffield where they always have 2 conductors on at a time and 3 or 4 in the peak if they can actually move around the tram as they are rammed even more than ours at peak times
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Old November 16th, 2010, 10:24 AM   #1116
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Hehe Next time you are in Sheffield check out the Meadowhall trams and you'll see how busy trams to shopping centres are! This is the only route in Sheffield where they always have 2 conductors on at a time and 3 or 4 in the peak if they can actually move around the tram as they are rammed even more than ours at peak times
there are about 30,000 people employed in trafford park who work shifts 24/7 and it currently has the worst public transport links of anywhere in south manchester. surely a decent wedge of them would use the line if it was built also?
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Old November 16th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #1117
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there are about 30,000 people employed in trafford park who work shifts 24/7 and it currently has the worst public transport links of anywhere in south manchester. surely a decent wedge of them would use the line if it was built also?
If that were indeed the case, there would not be a problem; Peel and its partners could borrow money commerically for building a TC Metrolink line, to be repaid from future operating profits (in the same way that the anticipated operating profits from the East Didsbury line are being used to fund much of the rest of phase 3b). Which is what the original funding model assumed. All it would need would be some way of splitting Metrolink revenue to compensate the investors in this line separately in respect of the passenger traffic it carried.

But it does not appear that the above scenario at the moment carries much credibility - perhaps because bus services into Trafford Park have been found to be uneconomic. The TIF propsal assumed that the Trafford Centre line would be served by single trams running at a 12 minute frequency; i.e. assuming an hourly one-drectional capacity requirement of 1,000 riders. That is not enough to generate the level of operating surplus that would be required to repay a £150m loan (let alone a £300M one). Part of the problem may have been finding space for this service through the City Centre, which might be resolvable following 2CC, but I suspect there is at present no conviction that the business is there.

This is, of course, a continual problem in financing light rail and light metros. These schemes almost always lead to improved capital value for commercial and residential property along their route. If some way could be found to monetise that improved value; then it would be much easier to fund light rail schemes. But if developers and owners feel that - if they wait long enough - they will be able to take a free ride on general taxation, then they will have no incentive to pay up front for a facility that they wmight eventually receive for free.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 02:01 PM   #1118
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getting us obese
What has filling your face with fatty food got to do with car use? Or do you planning to tax people for car use, eating "unhealthy" food and not exercising as well?
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:46 AM   #1119
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What has filling your face with fatty food got to do with car use? Or do you planning to tax people for car use, eating "unhealthy" food and not exercising as well?
Car use = sedentary lifestyle. Won't work the junk off, unless they hit the gym or keep active otherwise.

How many people do you see cycling through a McDonalds Drive-Thru?

People walking to and from the tram will be getting exercise, which might do something to combat Manchester's (very) poor health standards.

I don't see what is wrong with the Dutch (or Danish) method of taxing car use or 'junk food' heavily to promote alternative. Both countries have better health standards and quality of life, as well as happier children. Would you rather die earlier, unhealthy and unhappier, but 'richer'?
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Old November 17th, 2010, 10:23 AM   #1120
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If that were indeed the case, there would not be a problem; Peel and its partners could borrow money commerically for building a TC Metrolink line, to be repaid from future operating profits (in the same way that the anticipated operating profits from the East Didsbury line are being used to fund much of the rest of phase 3b). Which is what the original funding model assumed. All it would need would be some way of splitting Metrolink revenue to compensate the investors in this line separately in respect of the passenger traffic it carried.

But it does not appear that the above scenario at the moment carries much credibility - perhaps because bus services into Trafford Park have been found to be uneconomic. The TIF propsal assumed that the Trafford Centre line would be served by single trams running at a 12 minute frequency; i.e. assuming an hourly one-drectional capacity requirement of 1,000 riders. That is not enough to generate the level of operating surplus that would be required to repay a £150m loan (let alone a £300M one). Part of the problem may have been finding space for this service through the City Centre, which might be resolvable following 2CC, but I suspect there is at present no conviction that the business is there.

This is, of course, a continual problem in financing light rail and light metros. These schemes almost always lead to improved capital value for commercial and residential property along their route. If some way could be found to monetise that improved value; then it would be much easier to fund light rail schemes. But if developers and owners feel that - if they wait long enough - they will be able to take a free ride on general taxation, then they will have no incentive to pay up front for a facility that they wmight eventually receive for free.
if peel do press on with developing the port salford/salford reds/canal side area, with manchester united and salford reds, trafford park, the trafford centre, port salford additional residential properties and whatever else peel decide to build, do you feel that this still wont generate enough traffic to support the line?
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