Carbon pricing to start July 1. 2012

[manrush]

Originally Posted by Jack Daniel

I'm not denying that the climate is changing. I'm only saying that carbon tax is nothing but revenue raising. Open your eyes. Do you really think the Australian government wants to "save the planet". If they were serious they'd stop mass immigration and get rid of the baby bonus.

You were also saying that the carbon price (whoops, I mean tax) will impoverish Australia and lower living standards.

[Jack Daniel]

Originally Posted by manrush

You were also saying that the carbon price (whoops, I mean tax) will impoverish Australia and lower living standards.

Your saying that prices are not going to go up after it is introduced?

[manrush]

Originally Posted by Jack Daniel

Your saying that prices are not going to go up after it is introduced?

To an extent where the economy will collapse and society is going to be impoverished? Absolutely not.

[Jack Daniel]

Originally Posted by manrush

To an extent where the economy will collapse and society is going to be impoverished? Absolutely not.

You must have me confused with someone else. I never said the economy would collapse. All I'm saying is that living standards will go down as the cost of living increases.

IMHO Australia's economy will be very strong for years to come. All we need to do is keep on selling coal to China.

[Mornnb]

So why are the greens the first to oppose high density developments? Hypocrites..... Why are the greens the first to oppose wind turbines because a few birds might die? Hypocrites.....

Because they're impractical abosolutists who do more harm to their cause than good. Do not vote greens.

If we are really subsistent like Indians we could have 12bn+. The amount of people the earth can hold is dependent directly on how many resources each person uses.

Which sounds better, 2 billion people living well or 12 billion living in poverty?

There should be import tariffs on cheap Chinese steel and other carbon-intensive products that our industries will have to compete with in order to level the playing field.

Problem with doing this though is that the chinese will react and put tariffs on our exports.
So the best solution is the one Labor has been talking about, compensation for trade exposed industries.

I'm not denying that the climate is changing. I'm only saying that carbon tax is nothing but revenue raising. Open your eyes. Do you really think the Australian government wants to "save the planet". If they were serious they'd stop mass immigration and get rid of the baby bonus.

The world is overpopulated but Australia is not... we still have a lot of room. And if we can move people from overpopulated countries to here, then we can slightly help the situation in these overpopulated countries while helping our economy expand, shortage of labor has been a problem.

You must have me confused with someone else. I never said the economy would collapse. All I'm saying is that living standards will go down as the cost of living increases.

Cost of living is going to increase dramatically in decades if nothing is done about climate change and energy depletion. This is about saving industry and our standard of life, not reducing it.

[Jack Daniel]

Originally Posted by Mornnb

The world is overpopulated but Australia is not... we still have a lot of room. And if we can move people from overpopulated countries to here, then we can slightly help the situation in these overpopulated countries while helping our economy expand, shortage of labor has been a problem.

According to many Australia is overpopulated. Some studies have suggested that Australia has an estimated sustainable population of only 10 million

http://www.abc.net.au/environment/ar...01/3179045.htm

Also, when a person from a developing country moves to a developed country their carbon footprint increases. You are not going to do the environment any favours by moving poor African villagers to Sydney.

Plus removing a few hundred thousand people from an overpopulated country will not really make a difference. India has just reached 1.2 billion people. How many do you suggest Australia takes? 50 million? A drop in the ocean.

Originally Posted by Mornnb

Cost of living is going to increase dramatically in decades if nothing is done about climate change and energy depletion. This is about saving industry and our standard of life, not reducing it.

Sounds like we won't have to sacrifice anything at all in order to stop climate change. Like living in a fairytale.

[Qantas743]

Originally Posted by Mornnb

Problem with doing this though is that the chinese will react and put tariffs on our exports.
So the best solution is the one Labor has been talking about, compensation for trade exposed industries.

The best solution would be to have no carbon tax at all until the major emitters adopt one as well!

[17 floors up]

Originally Posted by Jack Daniel

I'm not denying that the climate is changing. I'm only saying that carbon tax is nothing but revenue raising. Open your eyes. Do you really think the Australian government wants to "save the planet". If they were serious they'd stop mass immigration and get rid of the baby bonus.


I'm so sick of know-nothing greenies who think they are protecting the environment by cycling and installing solar pannels. Wake up. Your not doing nearly enough. Do you not understand what solar panels and bikes are made of? How much energy goes into making them? Maintaining them???

Must be an ego trip being a die hard climate change alarmist. I took the train today. The world's a better place. Yay me.

Its the little things that count

[Mornnb]

According to many Australia is overpopulated. Some studies have suggested that Australia has an estimated sustainable population of only 10 million

Well it's a question of water supply and food production... Still I think there are engineering solutions around those problems, Israel is a pioneer in them, the big challenge is to move the energy systems to renewables or low carbon systems.

Also, when a person from a developing country moves to a developed country their carbon footprint increases. You are not going to do the environment any favours by moving poor African villagers to Sydney.

The long term goal is to decarbonise the economy, so we can decouple high living standards from having an impact on the climate.

The best solution would be to have no carbon tax at all until the major emitters adopt one as well!

Well with that attitude no country will want to do anything and nothing will get done. We are better off setting the example with modest steps today.

Sounds like we won't have to sacrifice anything at all in order to stop climate change. Like living in a fairytale.

Not at all, it's rather that climate change and energy depletion will have a much greater impact on living standards than abatement efforts will.

[Perth4life]

if we didn't live in such an indulgent society it wouldn't hit as hard.. what's $16 a week when someone has 2x 30k+ cars on credit, expensive tv, etc. etc.

[ypph]

I think this is Labors equivalent of workchoices in the mind of the average joe and will be Gillard and Labors downfall. In a consumerist society like ours, every dollar counts and punters see this tax as a threat to their way of life.

Originally Posted by Perth4life

if we didn't live in such an indulgent society it wouldn't hit as hard.. what's $16 a week when someone has 2x 30k+ cars on credit, expensive tv, etc. etc.

$16 dollars a week is $832 dollars a year. That's a new ipad 2 that will replace the perfectly fine ipad you already have or that sound system for your car that you dont really need or a trip to Bali drinking up with all the other Aussie bogans or a trip to Melbourne to shop for clothes you will never wear again.

[Levathian]

mornbb: agree 100%. Australia could be a great case study to the world for how great env schemes can be. The sky won't fall lol

[Eureka!]

Originally Posted by Jack Daniel

I'm not denying that the climate is changing. I'm only saying that carbon tax is nothing but revenue raising. Open your eyes. Do you really think the Australian government wants to "save the planet". If they were serious they'd stop mass immigration and get rid of the baby bonus.


I'm so sick of know-nothing greenies who think they are protecting the environment by cycling and installing solar pannels. Wake up. Your not doing nearly enough. Do you not understand what solar panels and bikes are made of? How much energy goes into making them? Maintaining them???

Must be an ego trip being a die hard climate change alarmist. I took the train today. The world's a better place. Yay me.

Your arguments venture so far from relevance. It isn't alarmist to accept scientific fact. It's alarmist to say the economy will fall in, industries will all jump shores and everyone will be wallowing in squalor.

And guess what: cycling is protecting the environment. Duh. The only problem is most of the population makes no effort to minimise the effects on the environment caused by their self-indulgent lifestyles. Thus, a carbon tax to force people's hands. Maybe if not everyone was as insular and obnoxious as yourself in your anti-anythingenvironmentrelateddespitethefactmylifedependsonit stance, we would not need this price mechanism.

And that piece claiming Australia can only support 10 million is absolute codswallop from a small-Australia supporter. With an abundance of minerals, energy sources, land, food and water, we could support far, far more. The author has clearly not looked at the amount of people who fit into countries such as Bangladesh.

[pikopancho]

Until we get over the idea that our economy can only exist on ever increasing growth/consumption in a world with finite resources then we are digging our own graves whether the climate warms or cools.

A warming climate will open up areas of the world which are currently not suitable for agriculture, of course many coastal cities may suffer from flooding, and more extreme weather events but long-term a warming climate is better than one that is cooling. I wouldn't have thought it is any coincidence that human population has exploded in the 11,000 years since thi short interglacial period started.

Our biggest problem is severe environmental degradation we are causing through overfarming, overfishing, damming, land clearing etc which is severely reducing the capacity of the land/water to cater for both the increasing population and the increasing demands of that population.

The focus on climate does of course shine a bit of light on these issues although its a rather convenient, one-dimensional take on the environment that probably makes it a lot easier to convince people.

[CP Doom]

Originally Posted by Eureka!

In Melbourne at least the Greens support medium density development- the most sustainable for the city. In addition more train lines are under consideration all over the country (whether that means much...). Also, you fail to differentiate the Green party from environmentalists in general. Clearly the party is a supporter of wind energy.

the greens as a political party are guilty of opposing wind turbines!

[Eureka!]

I would like to see evidence of this... Curious.

[redbaron_012]

As mentioned in a number of previous posts Man has not discovered everything just yet.....we will continue to advance our knowledge and capacity to make a better world for the growing population. Can you imagine if we stopped figuring anything out in the year 1900 and all of us were trying to live under their conditions. It was OK back then but wouldn't work now. The same goes for us all ( Quite a few ) freaking out about doomsday and altering it but charging a tax. If we exported no coal you may have a point but while we send tons of the stuff overseas why should Australians at home be squeezed further to lower their standard of living when it wont change a thing......It wont ! We all want a better world and future but stop fretting bet within 20 years discoveries will come that would blow you mind today......if you look back only 20 years and look at the technology advances since that we take for granted now. Just use our cheap coal for a while longer.......everyone else is.

[Citystyle]

Originally Posted by Jack Daniel

I'm not denying that the climate is changing. I'm only saying that carbon tax is nothing but revenue raising. Open your eyes. Do you really think the Australian government wants to "save the planet". If they were serious they'd stop mass immigration and get rid of the baby bonus.

Population control is even less controllable from an Australian political point of view. It will be the biggest issue of the 22nd century no doubt.

Originally Posted by Jack Daniel

I'm so sick of know-nothing greenies who think they are protecting the environment by cycling and installing solar pannels. Wake up. Your not doing nearly enough.

Well solar panels certainly don't do allot as they are so energy intensive to produce and at the end of the day not very efficient. They rely on fossil fuel for their existence like everything as don't produce enough energy to be worth mass investment roll out. A car uses nearly as much energy as a house per day, so cycling has major benefits to reducing energy consumption and reducing pollution.

Originally Posted by Jack Daniel

Do you not understand what solar panels and bikes are made of? How much energy goes into making them? Maintaining them??? Must be an ego trip being a die hard climate change alarmist. I took the train today. The world's a better place. Yay me.

Won't get any arguments from me, the reality is that a bike produces less during production than the average alloy wheel on a road car and they produce no emissions save for repairs (minimal) and you're Co2. Bikes are also seriously easy to recycle as they have very few parts.

The health benefits of cycling are worth it alone, will save the economy billions in transportation costs and billions In health. Win Win.

You could impose a carbon price and if consumers altered their lifestyle they could save money. Australian's are energy hungry using up to twice as energy per day as our European counterparts, unfortunately I feel this tax save for compensation will hit those from lower socio economic area's the hardest.

[Citystyle]

Originally Posted by pikopancho

The focus on climate does of course shine a bit of light on these issues although its a rather convenient, one-dimensional take on the environment that probably makes it a lot easier to convince people.

Global Warming/ Climate Change always has an element of "trojan horse" to it. Both from an environmental point of view and a political one.

Fossil Fuels touch everything in our lives, they are finite. The left has always preferred direct economic action and since the carbon economy has replaced capitalism as the evil of evils, they have wanted to invest tax payer dollars into certain technologies that are “ideologically” sound.

The Greens don't oppose land hungry forms of energy generation, which is ironic since most renewable save for concentrated solar technology have larger impact on the Biome than they are willing to admit.

The idea that renewable's will ever be able to reach the energy density required to be competitive is currently absurd and as such the framing of this debate kills political action. You would need a solar farm the size of Texas to power Europe and fifty percent of Britain would need to be covered in wind turbines to power the country.

[Kelli]

^The wave power people reckon they can compete with fossil fuels. But like you say, at the scale we do things, everything has some impact.