Wales Skybar

[stewgog]

So Elaiflyer you think that the real heartland of the Welsh language Gwynedd, Mon, Conwy is dominated by English people? Why do the English people avoid the Census? Why would they do this? I would suggest you go and look at the % welsh speakers in these areas. It is the heartland. You talk about practical purpose of the language? It a living language up here not a policy or a fashion statement. I'm afraid you are stating the opposite of what is the truth.

Why is it a good post liamcymro?

Its actually insulting, go and check the welsh government figures, census figures on where welsh is spoken then read back to yourself what you wrote.

[ElaiFlyer]

Originally Posted by stewgog

So Elaiflyer you think that the real heartland of the Welsh language Gwynedd, Mon, Conwy is dominated by English people? Why do the English people avoid the Census? Why would they do this? I would suggest you go and look at the % welsh speakers in these areas. It is the heartland. You talk about practical purpose of the language? It a living language up here not a policy or a fashion statement. I'm afraid you are stating the opposite of what is the truth.

Why is it a good post liamcymro?

Its actually insulting, go and check the welsh government figures, census figures on where welsh is spoken then read back to yourself what you wrote.

Why is it insulting?

Of course they're the Welsh speaking heartlands and the vast majority of local people speak Welsh. It's just that they also attract a high number of migrants from north west England, whereas the valleys don't. Take a walk around Barmouth, Tywyn, Fairbourne, Abersoch, Beaumaris or Llandudno.

By the way, I'm a Welsh speaker and I certainly didn't learn the language as a fashion statement. Attitudes like yours put people off learning the language.

[Karldiff]

Lots of people speak Welsh in south Wales. In numerical terms more than in the north. Welsh is the langauage of the pubs and streets in large swathes of Carmarthenshire.

It's insulting to say people speak Welsh in the south - either as a first language or as a learner - as a fashion statement. The thousands of English speaking parents who send their kids to Welsh medium schools don't do it - in the main - because they think it will give them something to boast about down the pub or so they can put their little darlings name down for a juicy job in WAG.

I'd say its mostly about getting in touch with a language, culture and identity that they feel has been denied them. The future of Welsh as a living GROWING language rests with them more than those in the Welsh heartlands. Without people in the urban south and north east reclaiming the language Welsh will be reduced to the same status as Breton - a rural patois spoken by an ever ageing, ever decreasing population.

[Gannet!]

Originally Posted by ElaiFlyer

Gannet is right. Most of the immigrants to the valleys came from other parts of Wales. My family moved to the Rhondda from Carmarthenshire. Everyone here speaks with an accent strongly influenced by the Welsh language - because until WW2 most people in this valley could speak some Welsh. The decline in language was caused by parents choosing not to pass the language on to their children in the period between the two world wars. As for the north, well outside towns like Caernarfon and Llangefni there isn't a critical mass of Welsh people that enables this level of national feeling. You can travel around parts of Ynys Mon & Ceredigion for days without hearing a Welsh accent, let alone the Welsh language being spoken. Welsh people are in the minority in certain areas of the north/west.

Elaiflyer is right and im gald theres a different view to Stewgogs nonsense. The decline of the Welsh language though started much earlier in the 1860s it was common to have an English speaking nanny for middle class south Wales famalies to teach children English and their childhoods were essentially bilingual as many famalies thought that only through speaking English would their children get good jobs. Then from the 1880s it was common for two Welsh first language parents to only talk to their children in English to ensure they were fully fluent in English and only English- the language of the now free and compulsary state education. This continued through until the end of the inter war period and Welsh had essentialy ceased to be a community language, and was dead in people 40 and below.


Also your right, you can go to Borth and hear only Birmingham accents and see more English flags than Welsh. Many English people also live in the main towns across North West Wales and its very easy to not hear a Welsh accent, never mind the Welsh langauge.

[stewgog]

If people move to an area they are included in the figures for census data!! As I said before migrants into Nort Wales are not large at all. So if Gwynedd's 1st language rates are well over 80% which they are then that includes everyone!!

There is little industry in North Wales so there is little attraction in moving here.

Kardliff, you reckon that people are not sending their children to welsh language schools so that they can get a 'juicy job' in the WAG. But yet Gannet claims that the Welsh language has died in valleys areas because of parents making the decision to make sure that the kids speak english? Seems contradictory would'nt you agree. Why did this not happen in North Wales. Massive industry in the Slate mines long before coal. Where North Walian kids not subject to the new ecudation regime? Because welsh families would never make that decision and never did.

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say, seemingly trying to be-little the 1st language hearlands of wales. Its a credit to our country something original, why would you want to attack it I've got no idea?

Gannet get this idea out of your head about north west wales towns. There is no employment except for agriculture and tourism, they might move to connahs quay and mold but I know more than you sunshine, I live up here! christ!

[aek-94]

Deleted.

[liamcymro]

Originally Posted by stewgog

If people move to an area they are included in the figures for census data!! As I said before migrants into Nort Wales are not large at all. So if Gwynedd's 1st language rates are well over 80% which they are then that includes everyone!!

There is little industry in North Wales so there is little attraction in moving here.

Kardliff, you reckon that people are not sending their children to welsh language schools so that they can get a 'juicy job' in the WAG. But yet Gannet claims that the Welsh language has died in valleys areas because of parents making the decision to make sure that the kids speak english? Seems contradictory would'nt you agree. Why did this not happen in North Wales. Massive industry in the Slate mines long before coal. Where North Walian kids not subject to the new ecudation regime? Because welsh families would never make that decision and never did.

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say, seemingly trying to be-little the 1st language hearlands of wales. Its a credit to our country something original, why would you want to attack it I've got no idea?

Gannet get this idea out of your head about north west wales towns. There is no employment except for agriculture and tourism, they might move to connahs quay and mold but I know more than you sunshine, I live up here! christ!

Seriously this is doing my head in now! Right, I come from North Wales and to be honest I always think about English speakers when talking about Towyn and Barmouth in South West Gwynedd. People like you promotes the death of the Welsh language, we need to learn that the matter of all fact is that there is a decline in the number of Welsh speakers at its heartlands and a rise in Welsh speakers in places further east. We need to tackle these problems in towns such as Holyhead, Barmouth and even Bangor and promote the Welsh language further. You can be in Holyhead for a whole day and not even hear a word of Welsh, and stewgog don't doubt me because I've been there and seen it myself. My post was not insulting - I agree, unfortunately, that you can be in these towns and not even hear a Welsh accent - Rhyl further east is a brilliant case where you are more likely to hear the scouse accent, even in the winter, more often than the Welsh accent. And another thing, don't think that Gwynedd is all juicy - percentage wise - Gwynedd has 62.5% + of Welsh speakers and Sir Gar and Ceredigion has less - don't be fooled - there is more Welsh speakers in Carmarthenshire than there is in Gwynedd.

On a positive side the number of people 3years old and over that can speak Welsh has increased:

1991 - 508,000 (18.7%)
2001 - 582,000 (20.8%) Increase of 74,000 or 2.1%

[stewgog]

The highest percentages of welsh speakers are in the northern counties. The south west has the highest number of speakers. I could name you dozens of towns the opposite of what you claim. Talking about a port town and Coastal resorts proves nothing. The idea that there are no welsh speakers in Bangor is also bollox. The heartland of the northern dialect of welsh is the core of the language. Anything else proves you don't know what you are talking about. Sorry to do you head in liamcymro but I don't really give a shit about that.

[liamcymro]

Originally Posted by stewgog

The highest percentages of welsh speakers are in the northern counties. The south west has the highest number of speakers. I could name you dozens of towns the opposite of what you claim. Talking about a port town and Coastal resorts proves nothing. The idea that there are no welsh speakers in Bangor is also bollox. The heartland of the northern dialect of welsh is the core of the language. Anything else proves you don't know what you are talking about. Sorry to do you head in liamcymro but I don't really give a shit about that.

Yes we all know that the Welsh heartland of the Northern dialect of Welsh is the core of the language - but we must also state that there are continuous fear of the Welsh language loosing it grip in towns such as Holyhead, Bangor and Llandudno. I could also dame you dozens of towns that has a very strong Welsh speaking community. I didn't say that there was no Welsh speakers in Bangor but when I was working there over the summer I did find it quite scary that there was so much English in the city. Anyway, there's no point with people like you. I moved to Cardiff 2 years ago and I'm very proud to say that I'm really impressed with the amount of Welsh I'm hearing here......And for 'Anything else proves you don't know what you are talking about' well sorry if I had 1st in my Welsh degree exam talking about the Welsh language, how many speaks the language and where is the language most likley to thrive or decline in a few decades. Stop being a prat and grow up, people has the right to put facts on the table and come to their own conclusion. Ffwl.

[stewgog]

I've nothing against South East Wales improving its standing in the language. I am responding in this debate abuot people saying things about northern english dominant towns in north west wales, accents etc, valleys losing language because parents decided it was a career move, go back and read over it, there is no future for the welsh language as a learned second language in south east wales.

Without the western welsh communites, and the northern dialect in particular then it will die. That is not to say that I don't think its great that the valleys and cardiff are doing better., but I won't stand by and listen to crap being said on this forum. Fool yourself friend.

[liamcymro]

Originally Posted by stewgog

I've nothing against South East Wales improving its standing in the language. I am responding in this debate abuot people saying things about northern english dominant towns in north west wales, accents etc, valleys losing language because parents decided it was a career move, go back and read over it, there is no future for the welsh language as a learned second language in south east wales.

Without the western welsh communites, and the northern dialect in particular then it will die. That is not to say that I don't think its great that the valleys and cardiff are doing better., but I won't stand by and listen to crap being said on this forum. Fool yourself friend.

The only crap I can hear is you....get's some facts and stop being so narrow minded.

[stewgog]

Originally Posted by liamcymro

The only crap I can hear is you....get's some facts and stop being so narrow minded.

Piss off mate, you had better get a refund on your degree, you are a prick if you agree that parents from the valleys turning their backs on the welsh language for economic reasons is why welsh language levels are so low there. Utter shit.

[Gannet!]

Why do you think the Welsh language went from 100% to 20% is so many South Wales Valleys?

[stewgog]

Then the population must have changed radically. A huge mass of welsh first language speakers must have all left. Or a huge influx of English speakers in a very short time. Are you seriously suggesting that generations of welsh speakers just stopped. The cultural identity, the national pride, family history all gone all together because of job prospects and all his happening only in the south east Wales valleys. It is laughable. Welsh communities cannot be so easily broken. The only real way this can happen is migration away from an area to be replaced by English speaking communities.

Of course all of you plastics down there have evidence of this great 19century welsh rejection??

[sunblock]

Both my mothers parents and my fathers father spoke fluent welsh but my parents couldn't speak much welsh and I can't at all.
It was the same with my mothers cousin Aneiryn, his father was fluent but he wasn't. That was in Hengoed in the Rhymney Valley.

[Cambo_Dai]

Stewgog - I'm sorry but you are wrong on this.

The vast majority of the population growth of the Valleys up until around 1900 was driven by migration from within-Wales, often from Carmarthenshire, and Mid Wales, as well as natural population growth. It was only after 1900 that migration from outside of Wales really made a big contribution (Cardiff is, of course, a somewhat different story).

But, already by 1900, there had been a fairly substantial decline in Welsh speakers, and a large rise in English bi-linguals and then English monoglots. Families did choose not to pass on Welsh. Partly due to discrimination against it in education and in "high society" and partly because English was the language of the empire and industry, families thought it better to ensure their children were English-speakers. These trends accelerated after 1900 when we had more in-migration from England but existed before this, but even then there was never "population replacement" or "sudden massive migration".

Wales and Welsh isn't the only example of language change. Brussels was a Flemish speaking city but become French from the early 1800s to the mid 1950s. Not because of migration, but because the middle class and then working class adopted the language of the aristocracy. Flemish died out in Nord-pas-de-Calais not because loads of French-speakers moved in but because antipathy from the state meant people felt the language wasn't worth passing on. Something similar happened with Breton which has only recently started to show some signs of life. And Cornish. And Manchu in China. And a myriad of other languages.

Language and cultural changes more often that not happen through changes in behaviour (usually "voluntary", sometimes "coerced") of existing populations, rather than population replacement. Has the adoption of Americanisms in British English been due to mass migration of Americans here?

Its one thing being arrogant and rude when you're right. But you are demonstrably wrong.

[liamcymro]

Originally Posted by stewgog

Piss off mate, you had better get a refund on your degree, you are a prick if you agree that parents from the valleys turning their backs on the welsh language for economic reasons is why welsh language levels are so low there. Utter shit.

[stewgog]

I'll carry on being 'rude' if you carry on with your sarcastic responses.

I ask again, why were these changes not seen in north west Wales , or even south west Wales? You place so little emphasis on cultural history and family inheritance of that culture and too much on pragmatic, quasi-economic reasons.

[ElaiFlyer]

Originally Posted by stewgog

Then the population must have changed radically. A huge mass of welsh first language speakers must have all left. Or a huge influx of English speakers in a very short time. Are you seriously suggesting that generations of welsh speakers just stopped. The cultural identity, the national pride, family history all gone all together because of job prospects and all his happening only in the south east Wales valleys. It is laughable. Welsh communities cannot be so easily broken. The only real way this can happen is migration away from an area to be replaced by English speaking communities.

Of course all of you plastics down there have evidence of this great 19century welsh rejection??

The cultural identity changed over time but survived well into the mid-20th century and is still there to a lesser degree, even with the homogenising effects of globalisation. It's just that they're expressed through the medium of (a distinctively Welsh) English. Political expression of national pride is stronger today than when the region was Welsh-speaking.

BTW, even today, 1 in 3 native Welsh speakers fail to pass the language on to their children. It's a particularly big problem in south-west Wales.

[aek-94]

Wales has came 31st in New York Times' "The 45 Places to Go in 2012" list

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