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Old January 17th, 2012, 10:15 AM   #61
CharlieP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallsmurf View Post
There is no need for a HS2-HS1 link to go via Euston or St P but should bypass both and have london stops at OOC and Stratford only
I didn't realise anybody had suggested a link via Euston or St. Pancras.

Also, why stop at Stratford? OOC could be very useful to people transferring from Heathrow, but Stratford would just add unnecessary time to international journeys, especially those from Birmingham/beyond.

If enough demand is there for through trains from Birmingham, the only real solution would be to have segregated platforms plus customs/immigration facilities at Curzon Street, and let trains run non-stop via a link from HS2 to HS1 through/under North London.
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Old January 17th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
I didn't realise anybody had suggested a link via Euston or St. Pancras.

Also, why stop at Stratford? OOC could be very useful to people transferring from Heathrow, but Stratford would just add unnecessary time to international journeys, especially those from Birmingham/beyond.

If enough demand is there for through trains from Birmingham, the only real solution would be to have segregated platforms plus customs/immigration facilities at Curzon Street, and let trains run non-stop via a link from HS2 to HS1 through/under North London.
The train could stop anywhere there are customs facilities, to pick up or drop off international passengers. So that Birmingham train could stop at OOC, Stratford, Ebbsfleet or Ashford. The question is how much demand and how long would it delay the trip. Ebbsfleet and Ashford have good international connections on what is increasingly is the Brussels commuter route, what with all the stops the trains make.

In the end I think Stratford is too close to Central London. OOC has the conenctions to Heathrow and the Great Western. For people from the South and West this cross platform interchange will be hugely attractive.

Ebbsfleet might pick up a few extra continental destinations because of its huge park and ride facilities and being close to the M25. For many suburban people it is cheaper and easier to go there than try and get a taxi at 5am to get to St Pancras for an early train because the earliest train near your house does not get to London till 7/7.30 am.
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Old January 17th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #63
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Does anyone know how OOC station will work with Crossrail? Are there going to be terminating platforms for the current Paddington terminators. Also, how does it link in with the Crossrail storage/maintenance yards? I know detailed designs haven't been drawn up but surely there must be something a bit more indicative than http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...5002issue3.pdf
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Old January 17th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #64
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There's a detailed map of the station where you got that map. Crossrail will have 4 platforms (though whether trains will terminate there, or go on a branch remains to be seen). Access to the maintainance depot will be kept, as HS2 will be in tunnel - they might have to rebuild the approach, but it doesn't look like it.
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Old January 17th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flare View Post
Does anyone know how OOC station will work with Crossrail? Are there going to be terminating platforms for the current Paddington terminators. Also, how does it link in with the Crossrail storage/maintenance yards? I know detailed designs haven't been drawn up but surely there must be something a bit more indicative than http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...5002issue3.pdf
more detailed diagram here

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...5301issue3.pdf

If you zoom in it looks like Crossrail/GWR mainline station has 8 through platforms at surface level to the south of the site. HS2 will have 6 through platforms but all underground in a station box under the current train sheds.
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Old January 17th, 2012, 10:59 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Tallsmurf View Post
In response to poster above proposing that HS2-HS1 connections go via Euston or St P or even Waterloo.

There is no need for a HS2-HS1 link to go via Euston or St P but should bypass both and have london stops at OOC and Stratford only
Correct, the HS1 HS2 connection route published by the DfT clearly shows a 3rd tunnel from OOC by-passing Euston and St Pancras to join HS1 directly.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...5140issue2.pdf
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Old January 19th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #67
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Actually, thats just an illusion...

Waterloo, is in fact a better terminous for the CTRL (The brand term HS1 just gets Westminster moaning there isn't a HS2). Waterloo can distribute passengers to the same destinations as St.Pancras, much easily...

Tottenham Court Road/Oxford Street.
Paddington. (Jubilee Line exstention makes this arguably more pleasent than using the circle line at Kings Cross)
Victoria (although Clapham Jucntion would proberbly of taken most traffic)
The City and Canary Wharf are almost inaccessable from St. Pancras. From Waterloo its the easiest journey in the world.

Even before CTRL, Waterloo was seriously underestimated as a terminous. The Aldwych Branch for instance, was closed a few months before Eurostar began operation. But why was this not extended to Waterloo? Aldwych could of still been closed.

The Jubilee Line exstention, as well did not appear to be a bonus for Eurostar. It seemed direct access to Canary Wharf, Westminster, a more easier access to Paddington than the Bakerloo Line and the more hotel based areas of Green Park and Park Lane didnt matter. But St. Pancras, was the best shot, even though it meant crowding already crowed north-south and Circle Line tube corridors.

Ideally, (going off topic) saying St. Pancras IS the right terminous, I would of had CTRL leave St. Pancras and head south east, to a major interchange station at Canary Wharf. Proberbly on the Billingsgate Fish Market. providing major interchanges with the Jubilee Line, and a quick hop on the DLR into the city from Paris-bound passengers. Then going along the current alignment of the Woolwich exstention of the DLR, crossing the Thames by bridge, shoot through Thamesmead, down the path of the Bronze Age Way through Dartford and onto todays alignment.

Sorry for going wawwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic..
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Old January 20th, 2012, 02:15 PM   #68
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I thought that cross rail popped out just past Paddington.
At what stage do the crossrail trains start to use existing track?
Will this new station at Old Oak Common have an interchange with the Overground, it would make a trip to Camden from southall easier for instance.
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/maps/ the map doesn't show Old Oak Common.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda goats View Post
I thought that cross rail popped out just past Paddington.
At what stage do the crossrail trains start to use existing track?
Will this new station at Old Oak Common have an interchange with the Overground, it would make a trip to Camden from southall easier for instance.
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/maps/ the map doesn't show Old Oak Common.
Best to look back through this thread, for the various maps.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonerMiles View Post
Actually, thats just an illusion...

Waterloo, is in fact a better terminous for the CTRL (The brand term HS1 just gets Westminster moaning there isn't a HS2). Waterloo can distribute passengers to the same destinations as St.Pancras, much easily...

Tottenham Court Road/Oxford Street.
Paddington. (Jubilee Line exstention makes this arguably more pleasent than using the circle line at Kings Cross)
Victoria (although Clapham Jucntion would proberbly of taken most traffic)
The City and Canary Wharf are almost inaccessable from St. Pancras. From Waterloo its the easiest journey in the world.

Even before CTRL, Waterloo was seriously underestimated as a terminous. The Aldwych Branch for instance, was closed a few months before Eurostar began operation. But why was this not extended to Waterloo? Aldwych could of still been closed.

The Jubilee Line exstention, as well did not appear to be a bonus for Eurostar. It seemed direct access to Canary Wharf, Westminster, a more easier access to Paddington than the Bakerloo Line and the more hotel based areas of Green Park and Park Lane didnt matter. But St. Pancras, was the best shot, even though it meant crowding already crowed north-south and Circle Line tube corridors.

Ideally, (going off topic) saying St. Pancras IS the right terminous, I would of had CTRL leave St. Pancras and head south east, to a major interchange station at Canary Wharf. Proberbly on the Billingsgate Fish Market. providing major interchanges with the Jubilee Line, and a quick hop on the DLR into the city from Paris-bound passengers. Then going along the current alignment of the Woolwich exstention of the DLR, crossing the Thames by bridge, shoot through Thamesmead, down the path of the Bronze Age Way through Dartford and onto todays alignment.

Sorry for going wawwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic..
Waterloo was AWFUL for the HS terminus. Whilst it was handy for those of us on the South Coast, it was terrible for most of the country. Also, having 400m trains snaking their way through the Suburban Network caused serious issues.
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Old January 21st, 2012, 07:34 PM   #71
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But most of the country doesn't use Eurostar - London-SouthEasterners do. And the move to St.Pancras made it worse for everyone on the South side. Car use increased as people drove to Ebbsfleet/Ashford insetad, and I expect that air use increased too to some destinations beyond Brussels, where a Eurostar and change might have previously been competitive.

(Not that the Waterloo access via the DC network was any good, but that was nothing a tunnel wouldn't have cured)

But North and East London continue to do far, far better in terms of transport infrastructure infrastructure than South London Surrey and Sussex do. Losing Eurostar was just another slap in the face for the South side. HS2's north side terminus at Euston similarly maintains the status quo and doesn't help solve the big gap in service.
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Old January 21st, 2012, 08:35 PM   #72
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I don't think you can validly talk about any part of London receiving a 'slap in the face' when it comes to transport.

Eurostar moving to St. Pancras meant better business as Eurostar could become the quickest way to do London - Paris. It wouldn't be as successful as it is now if it was still running on the suburban network. While Eurostar doesn't currently stop at Stratford, it might do in the future if Canary Wharf and the east continues to grow as a place for business.

Most importantly, it paves the way for HS2 and will theoretically allow international high speed connections to the rest of the UK, removing any flawed theory that only Londoners/SE use Eurostar.
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Old January 21st, 2012, 09:02 PM   #73
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The problem with Waterloo was the 90s wasn't really a time for joined up thinking transport ideas. The only attempts in approving connectivity in a nationwise basis to Waterloo was the Alphaline services and the Cross Country IC125 services.
Reopening the spur of the South Western Mainline before Waterloo and onto the the SEML then to Thameslink could of worked well. Connecting Waterloo with Kings Cross and provding a "tempoary" Crossrail 2.

St. Pancras is also giving into defeat over Reigonal Eurostar, the point of Reigonal Eurostar, was to proivde direct services from north of London. Therefore a north London terminus wouldnt of been nessacary. Even so, this wouldnt of been nessacary in itself, as the further north through the North of London commuter belt you go, the lesser the catchment area of Eurostar becomes, and reigonal airports such as Luton, Stansted or East Midlands become much stronger. Who would travel from Stoke on Trent to London then catch a Eurostar? Even from Waterloo or St. Pancras? Or even catch a Reigonal Eurostar service when it could take as long as flying to get to Paris? But Milton Keynes/Luton/Stvenage/Chelmsford, it becomes a different matter, being much closer to London its much more likley passangers from these towns will use Eurostar.
Therefore, a north of London terminus, wouldnt really benifiet the north, instead a frequent Reading/Watford Jucntion to Waterloo service would of been much better.
Again, Stratford International was a terrible move. Canary Wharf International would of been better, the SEML, SWML, LTSML, GEML and North Kent Line would of all been easily accessabile.
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Old January 21st, 2012, 09:03 PM   #74
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Ill Tonkso, we'll take this to Simtroplis
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Old January 21st, 2012, 10:20 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonerMiles View Post
...
St. Pancras is also giving into defeat over Reigonal Eurostar, the point of Reigonal Eurostar, was to provide direct services from north of London. ...

Again, Stratford International was a terrible move. Canary Wharf International would of been better, the SEML, SWML, LTSML, GEML and North Kent Line would have all been easily accessabile.
But Regional Eurostar did not happen. Call it defeat if you like, but that was what happened. It was canceled - dropped - killed - became a former parrot. The line to central London had to be improved - trundling through the suburbs made it a laughing stock. At least St Pancras gives direct connections to fast trains for some potential onward destinations (e.g. Leeds, Sheffield, Derby, Newcastle etc), and fairly direct ones for Birmingham, MK, Manchester etc. None of this would have happened from Waterloo.

As for Stratford International, that may well come into its own (though putting it a bit nearer to Stratford National would have helped). Ebbsfleet is another very weird decision, but presumably the car lobby had to be appeased somehow.
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Old January 22nd, 2012, 05:47 PM   #76
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Post deleted.

Last edited by TedStriker; January 22nd, 2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Found answers to my two questions
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Old January 23rd, 2012, 10:49 AM   #77
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This thread is about Old Oak Common, keep the Eurostar debate to the requisite thread.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #78
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Hammersmith & Fulham is saying it has got agreement that the Crossrail depot just north of OOC station would be built in a way that commercial development could happen on to top of it.

(That would be like the Central Line depot underneath Westfield White City.)

The fact that the whole of the Park Royal area is designated as industrial land under the London Plan would need to be reviewed, if HS2 is confirmed.

.
It says a Old Oak Crossrail depot is inevitable, to avoid delays in Crossrail opening. If land prices escalate, it could conceivably be moved, and Crossrail could even share facilities with Crossrail 2, apparently.

It also, not surprisingly, wants some things to open before 2026.

They might include GWML platforms for Crossrail, the second Crossrail branch to the WCML (which would make it easier to rebuild Euston), and diverting one or both of the NLL and the WLL to call at OOC.

A diverted NLL is easy, and it would then take a new route in the east to Willesden Junction.

It thinks a diverted WLL would NOT have to head up the Dudding Hill line, but could just manage to curve sharply enough to still reach Willesden Junction from the west. It says the curves would be no worse than at Stratford (I presume for the NLL).

It is setting up the project structures needed to work with other stakeholders, like TfL, Brent and Ealing, and Network Rail.

Terry Farrell's light-rail lines are part of the plan, but no-one has yet seriously considered what the population density would have to be, to avoid demoting them to "rapid transit" buses. In reality, the light-rail line eastwards into Kensington & Chelsea would be a consolation prize for losing out over a Crossrail station.

.
Terry Farrell's web site says:

"Working in conjunction with respected economists Colin Buchanan and CBRE, Farrells’ regeneration vision for 'Park Royal City' could generate an estimated 12,000 homes, 115,000 jobs, a new waterside park along the Grand Union Canal, and a new rapid transit system, built on an unrivalled convergence of transport routes in west London."

Last edited by Jon10; January 24th, 2012 at 05:27 PM.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 10:23 PM   #79
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Quote:
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It thinks a diverted WLL would NOT have to head up the Dudding Hill line, but could just manage to curve sharply enough to still reach Willesden Junction from the west. It says the curves would be no worse than at Stratford (I presume for the NLL).
Yeah, but the trains will screech like hell all day long. Those poor prisoners in Wormwood Scrubs won't get a minute's peace!

Do you have some links for your statements, Jon10, please? It sounds intriguing.
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Old January 25th, 2012, 09:31 AM   #80
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the second Crossrail branch to the WCML (which would make it easier to rebuild Euston)
HS2 Ltd. were quite anti this saying it couldn't open until 2030 and would cost £500 million!
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