MRT Future Transit Lines - SLL, HLL, NCL, T7-Line, etc

[y2koh]

I concur, it's basically a very general concept plan.

[mcarling]

First, let me be explicit that I am not advocating this idea.

If the pigtail configuration of the DTL is successful, perhaps LTA might decide to repeat the configuration with a pigtail running through the future Keppel-area CBD and connecting the Holland and Seletar lines.

For example, the Holland Line might run along Orchard Road, perhaps take some or all of the Dhoby Ghaut to Promenade portion of the CCL, then turn south into the existing CBD, then turn west into the future Keppel-area CBD, and then turn north-northeast to become the Seletar Line.

This would have the obvious disadvantages of requiring these two lines to have the same train lengths and (compatible if not identical) frequencies.

Thoughts?

[circleline4]

Based on your description, here's a route i traced out.


IMO, the joint between the east end of HLL and south end of SLL is really unnecessary as it's already covered by the CCL. I don't think we need another "ribbon" circling the CBD area.

Also, both lines are already relatively long on its own (taking into account the tengah extension of HLL). Shorter lines are preferable as they're easier to operate and maintain.

[Seloloving]

It would be plausible without the city loop.

[ddes]

Originally Posted by Seloloving

It would be plausible without the city loop.

It's not possible, with CCL1. It's not possible to turn back trains at Promenade. Besides, I think LTA doesn't want to have anything to do with the CCL and DTL anymore sans minor extensions.

Besides, combining the Holland and Seletar Lines limits further expansion into the Marina Bay, Marina East, East Coast or Keppel-Brani. Then, you'd have to have a whole horde of new infrastructure, just to connect the undeveloped regions with the existing lines.

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by circleline4

Based on your description, here's a route i traced out.

Thanks for the map!

Originally Posted by circleline4

IMO, the joint between the east end of HLL and south end of SLL is really unnecessary as it's already covered by the CCL. I don't think we need another "ribbon" circling the CBD area.

Of course, it would not follow the same path as CCL6.

Originally Posted by circleline4

Also, both lines are already relatively long on its own (taking into account the tengah extension of HLL). Shorter lines are preferable as they're easier to operate and maintain.

Shorter lines have some advantages, but they may not always exceed the advantages of longer lines. I don't know whether DTL2 and DTL3 sharing a pigtail through the CBD will turn out to be a good idea that will be repeated or an interesting lesson not to be repeated.

Originally Posted by Seloloving

It would be plausible without the city loop.

Interesting. It seems to me that it would be implausible without the pigtail. Imagine the DTL without the pigtail. The pigtail was the solution to the question of how to get enough commuters near enough to their workplaces. The CBD needs more MRT coverage -- a lot more.

Originally Posted by ddes

It's not possible, with CCL1. It's not possible to turn back trains at Promenade. Besides, I think LTA doesn't want to have anything to do with the CCL and DTL anymore sans minor extensions.

Including part of CCL1 might be a bad idea. Either way, it is not critical to the main idea here.

Originally Posted by ddes

Besides, combining the Holland and Seletar Lines limits further expansion into the Marina Bay, Marina East, East Coast or Keppel-Brani. Then, you'd have to have a whole horde of new infrastructure, just to connect the undeveloped regions with the existing lines.

Certainly true for East Coast. I don't see any reason why the pigtail couldn't pass through Marina East or Keppel-Brani if expectations of future traffic would justify it.

[ddes]

Shorter lines have some advantages, but they may not always exceed the advantages of longer lines.

What are the advantages to a longer line? Singapore's network so far is undesirable because it represents the worst in metro and commuter hybrid. Stations in the city area are not close apart enough for the convenience of commuters (you're either gonna walk quite a distance, or you have to take a short bus journey). While it is true the city will see stations 400m apart, but to be honest, why should the Bencoolen-Bras Basah-Bugis area be more convenient when there is an obvious gap between Tanjong Pagar and Raffles Place stations for example. At the same time, increasing more stations within the city makes cross-country journeys needlessly longer. Longer lines and seasonal traffic also means the trains take longer to cater to Singapore's tidal traffic patterns.

The CBD needs more MRT coverage -- a lot more.

Definitely, but the Holland Line (if it continues to run along Tanglin-Orchard stretch), will not increase coverage of the CBD much. I'd imagine it's primary purpose would be to alleviate EWL-West and the NSL's city segment.

Either way, it is not critical to the main idea here.

It's easy to suggest a pigtail. The city alignment however, is crucial, and somewhere you've conveniently and rather flippantly left out. (Hey, let's use the HLL and SLL to plug a random list of holes in the CBD... It'll serve wherever I see fit to serve without taking consideration existing and future lines).

I don't see any reason why the pigtail couldn't pass through Marina East or Keppel-Brani if expectations of future traffic would justify it.

Proves the point I just made.

[y2koh]

Has anyone considered the possibility of HLL turning south after Tanglin, down Nathan Road and cut across the area south of former RI to River Valley/Kim Seng junction? From there it can continue towards the CBD via River Valley Road.

[Simon91]

Originally Posted by ddes

What are the advantages to a longer line? Singapore's network so far is undesirable because it represents the worst in metro and commuter hybrid. Stations in the city area are not close apart enough for the convenience of commuters (you're either gonna walk quite a distance, or you have to take a short bus journey). While it is true the city will see stations 400m apart, but to be honest, why should the Bencoolen-Bras Basah-Bugis area be more convenient when there is an obvious gap between Tanjong Pagar and Raffles Place stations for example. At the same time, increasing more stations within the city makes cross-country journeys needlessly longer. Longer lines and seasonal traffic also means the trains take longer to cater to Singapore's tidal traffic patterns.

Very true. Beside, I find the urban planning outside of town pretty wasteful. Instead of developing highly centralized New Towns with a station in its geographic (not just formal) center, they tend to be sprawled and loose. And to make it even worse, how much space if left void in such town center areas, while most of housing developments start 500-1000m away? Woodlands, JE, Tampines are the worst culprits here, but Bedok and quite a few other stations are guilty of the same thing too. Don't the planners understand that with such a design a feeder transportation network is going to be a challenge to develop as very few people will bother to walk? But I digress.

What I'm saying, is that it could be possible to have new towns more nucleated and then MRT stations outside of town could be spaced far more, perhaps 3-4 kms apart, and traveling would be faster. But that would require an intense hub and spoke approach and some of our forumers would argue that a six car line would not be able to handle it..

Wish me luck for enlistment btw..

[y2koh]

I always tell people that Singapore's urban structure is a densified version of an urban sprawl. URA/HDB seems to be obsessed with having a uniform plot ratio spread over a large area.

A better approach would have been to identify corridors where height and density will not be limited by flight paths and plan high density residential developments along these corridors, and then connect these corridors with high capacity MRT lines. It's strange, for example to see dense 25 storey flats at Fernvale where it is served by only an LRT line, while the lower density side of Sengkang and Punggol is where the MRT stations are located.

[ddes]

Originally Posted by Simon91

Wish me luck for enlistment btw..

Enjoy!

Personally, I think it'd have been better to have the sprawl radiating out of the central area rather than demarcating the "city" to the CBD area as opposed to the imagined suburbs we have. Singapore's simply not that large to have that distinction. But if I'm not wrong, LKY mentioned this before: he considered extending the "city" to roughly the borders marked by the Circle Line but that meant that Singapore's urban sprawl would only be half of what it is today, leaving the frontiers remote and undeveloped, a la Hong Kong. However, he refused, saying he wanted Singaporeans to live comfortably.

[y2koh]

Check this out http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_Plan

[Aranho]

Heard about the Finger Plan from one of my lecturers, very interesting indeed. Although I'm not too sure about connecting each fingers without going through the city centre.

[y2koh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00hKtGU_n0

LOOP City by Bjarke Ingels

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by ddes

What are the advantages to a longer line?

To understand the advantages of longer lines, just apply the logical construct reductio ad absurdum. Imagine if every line served exactly two stations and commuters had to interchange at every station, possibly ten or twenty times to get home.

Originally Posted by ddes

Singapore's network so far is undesirable

2.2 million daily MRT riders disagree with you.

Originally Posted by ddes

Stations in the city area are not close apart enough for the convenience of commuters (you're either gonna walk quite a distance, or you have to take a short bus journey). While it is true the city will see stations 400m apart, but to be honest, why should the Bencoolen-Bras Basah-Bugis area be more convenient when there is an obvious gap between Tanjong Pagar and Raffles Place stations for example.

I completely agree with you here, but it doesn't bear on the proposal of this thread.

Originally Posted by ddes

At the same time, increasing more stations within the city makes cross-country journeys needlessly longer.

Yes, but using a pigtail helps to obviate that problem. As the number of MRT lines increases the proportion of cross country travelers who will switch lines increases. Consider, for example, someone going from Bedok MRT station to Beauty World MRT station. She will interchange once at Bugis. Connecting the Holland and Seletar lines with a pigtail would increase the opportunities to make such connections without entering the most congested parts of the CBD.

Originally Posted by ddes

It's easy to suggest a pigtail. The city alignment however, is crucial, and somewhere you've conveniently and rather flippantly left out. (Hey, let's use the HLL and SLL to plug a random list of holes in the CBD... It'll serve wherever I see fit to serve without taking consideration existing and future lines).

Now you're contradicting yourself. I didn't specify an exact route through the CBD because it should not "serve wherever I see fit to serve ...." The LTA have much better data than I do and they can figure out better than I can how to route a pigtail through the present and future CBD.

[joshww81]

Originally Posted by y2koh

I always tell people that Singapore's urban structure is a densified version of an urban sprawl. URA/HDB seems to be obsessed with having a uniform plot ratio spread over a large area.

A better approach would have been to identify corridors where height and density will not be limited by flight paths and plan high density residential developments along these corridors, and then connect these corridors with high capacity MRT lines. It's strange, for example to see dense 25 storey flats at Fernvale where it is served by only an LRT line, while the lower density side of Sengkang and Punggol is where the MRT stations are located.

Agree with your insights.

Having observed the urban development patterns in HK, I too feel that our urban development patterns are slightly too sprawled. It would make more sense to densify them along specific corridors fitted with heavy rail, as you mentioned. This has to be supported with intense commercial developments (destinations) within the CBD or, at the very least, a MRT interchange.

Separately, from an urban design perspective, there is also a need to improve the "first mile-last mile" challenge, particularly for walking and cycling. We are sorely lacking in this area comparatively to many of the European or major Asian cities.

[y2koh]

Long time no see Josh! Yes I agree with your suggestion that we have to improve the 'first mile-last mile" travel experience. Commuters can take as much as 20-30mins to travel between workplaces/homes and the MRT station, which can be more than half of the total travel time itself.

Such improvements cannot be made only by simply increasing rail density. We do not build MRT lines in Singapore at breakneck speed like in Chinese cities, so we have to rely on more innovative and integrated approaches. From a planning perspective, for the last 30 years of developing new towns, our approach has been to plan the new town first before connecting it with transport corridors, which is actually contrary to usual urban development models. In fact, doing so have forced LTA to contort new MRT lines to fit between developments.

From a urban design perspective, there has been a neglect too on the potential of creating pleasant walking experience to the MRT stations, which will decrease the demand for feeder buses. URA and HDB has always been proud of Singapore's network of covered walkways, but they do not link directly to the MRT stations and often increases the walking distance and time spent. Some MRT stations are also surrounded by fenced up developments forcing commuters to take detours. Improvements can be made by building 500m long amenity-commercial integrated linkways along the roads leading to the MRT station for a more direct, comfortable and activity generated walking experience. If necessary, these corridors may even cut through private developments, which will require UD guidelines and controls to be made at the site tender proccess.

[deskoh91]

I believe they are trying that out in the Jurong Gateway area with the extensive network of overhead sheltered linkways that will connect upcoming developments. question now is just whether we can apply this concept of overhead linkways economically over all the towns. this will be a viable alternative to the multiple up/down flights of steps required for ground level covered linkways that people shun. with the linkways now level, we can even consider making them wide enough for bicycles and pedestrians to share the links, bringing a whole new meaning to the term park and ride.

as for feeder connectivity, there will always be demand for them as people who do not wish to walk will always exist due to the climate here especially when they are dressed for an occasion. I think a viable short term measure is to operate feeder services with smaller buses (19 seaters or 28 seaters) so frequencies can be justifiably increased and routes can run along corridors of lower density. this is where the many smaller private bus companies can have a share of the pie to capitalize on their lull periods between their daily scheduled ferry services and charters.

sorry for bringing the thread off topic.

[joshww81]

Originally Posted by y2koh

Long time no see Josh! Yes I agree with your suggestion that we have to improve the 'first mile-last mile" travel experience. Commuters can take as much as 20-30mins to travel between workplaces/homes and the MRT station, which can be more than half of the total travel time itself.

Haha! Yeah, I've been busy and been lurking.

And tell me about it! I can take up to 45 minutes to get to the nearest train station, which can be ridiculous (10min walk, up to 14min waiting time for bus and 20min travel time ).

[y2koh]

That's potentially 2/3 to 3/4 of your travel time I presume, which is ridiculous. While I appreciate the issue of land value in an exclusively private development area, the consequence is that the neighborhood becomes disconnected and it's impossible to walk around. People have to rely on cars or other modes of transport. Singapore is a relatively flat city compared to Hong Kong, so it's really a matter of having well thought out guidelines to ensure multiple levels of connectivity.

I agree that the climate here, and personal situations mean that it may not be conducive to walk 1km to the nearest MRT station, but at the very least, ensuring connectivity by foot allows people to have more choices in terms of bus routes, if not in cases encourage people to make the switch to walking and taking public transport.

Somehow it reminds me of this case in Serangoon Gardens several years ago where the country club decided to close up a small lane that had been used by residents as a shortcut to do their daily grocery shopping. In the end the public outcry forced the club management to leave the shortcut open. It is this taking over of public realm that should be stopped, and fortunately in this case, the residents are able to make the difference.