TURKEY | Railways

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Gadiri

Thanl you.

Which speed will be the line between Konya and sea ?

Is there any update of that map? (For instance, isn't the line to Konya complete?)

[Toker]

Originally Posted by Messi

I can't remember having heard anything about freight trains on the Ankara-Konya line. I guess they will keep using the old conventional line. There is a project to connect Bursa with a ca. 150 km highspeed line to the Ankara-Istanbul highspeed line, you can see it on the map posted above. I think Bursa will be connected within 3-5 years. Regarding Trabzon, no projects so far and Antalya is being mentioned again and again but it won't happen within the or next decade I guess.

Actually they can't use the old conventional Ankara-Konya line for freight, because there isn't one. Freight is carried by trucks between these two cities.

[hhouse]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Is there any update of that map? (For instance, isn't the line to Konya complete?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YH...y_1200x675.png

[Baron Hirsch]

The only difference between these maps is recognizing that the Knya line is open. Lots of other developments are not obvious. For example, "expected to be contracted in 2009" must now read "expected to be contracted in 2011" (and someone will have to change that to 2012, and possibly then again and again). Ankara to Afyon is also "expected" this year. About 2/3 of the line from Bursa joining up with the main line to Eskisehir has actually been tendered and contracts could be signed soon. The new HSL from Konya to Mersin however does not seem a priority anymore; instead Karaman mentioned plans to partially upgrade the old line. As for other entries of "intentions expressed" so many new schemes, many of them already undergoing studies, have popped up that I do not even want to begin listing them here.
I would suggest rayturk's map, http://[IMG]http://www.rayturk.net/w....jpg[/IMG] although not as pretty, but more up to date.
yellow- in operation
red - under construction
green - tender closed, awaiting construction
black - plans (almost) completed, awaiting tender
dark blue - project phase
light blue - intention expressed
purple - in study phase

[Hubert Pollak]

What are the stage for Kars - Tbilisi construction?

Are there any news about rolling stock delivery for this line? there was information about purchasing Talgo passenger trains for Kars - Tbilisi line.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by hhouse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YH...y_1200x675.png

Ah, thanks.

Originally Posted by Toker

Actually they can't use the old conventional Ankara-Konya line for freight, because there isn't one. Freight is carried by trucks between these two cities.

Then shouldn't a freight line between those two cities have just as high (if not higher) a priority as the passenger line? Freight is, after all, where the real money's made.

[Toker]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Then shouldn't a freight line between those two cities have just as high (if not higher) a priority as the passenger line? Freight is, after all, where the real money's made.

Not if the country is run by people who have no clue about such technicalities, representing their voters who have no clue about anything whatsoever. HSR line is fancier, so it will make people feel more modern, and in return they will vote for the people who modernized their country.

Saying "their country" feels a bit odd, but I guess I'll have to get used to it. It used to be everyone's country when it was Republic of Turkey. But now this openly declared dictatorship is only some peoples country, me not being one of them.

Sorry, veered off the topic a bit while putting myself to the danger of imprisonment. Shutting up.

[Messi]

Originally Posted by Toker

Actually they can't use the old conventional Ankara-Konya line for freight, because there isn't one. Freight is carried by trucks between these two cities.

Both cities are connected by conventional line, just not directly but via Eskisehir. For freight it's not essential to be connected directly, I guess. In the end if TCDD is supplying a freight service then the high speed line is not the only way, there is an alternative.

[Messi]

Originally Posted by Toker

Not if the country is run by people who have no clue about such technicalities, representing their voters who have no clue about anything whatsoever. HSR line is fancier, so it will make people feel more modern, and in return they will vote for the people who modernized their country.

Saying "their country" feels a bit odd, but I guess I'll have to get used to it. It used to be everyone's country when it was Republic of Turkey. But now this openly declared dictatorship is only some peoples country, me not being one of them.

Sorry, veered off the topic a bit while putting myself to the danger of imprisonment. Shutting up.

So building freight lines before connecting cities to each other for passengers is more essential for you? Sorry but I prefer having a developed HSR line 10 times more a some freight lines. And I am thankful to Turkish Railways for thinking first about serving people and building HSR lines instead of thinking in a capitalistic way and building freight lines for higher revenue. If the real money really comes from freight transportation at all..

[Toker]

Originally Posted by Messi

Both cities are connected by conventional line, just not directly but via Eskisehir. For freight it's not essential to be connected directly, I guess. In the end if TCDD is supplying a freight service then the high speed line is not the only way, there is an alternative.

You could also transport goods from New York to Paris by land via frozen Bering Strait if you really wanted, but you won't, because it is not feasible. Ankara-Konya is 258km by highway, about 600 by conventional rail, so I maintain my position that there is no rail line between the two.

Originally Posted by Messi

So building freight lines before connecting cities to each other for passengers is more essential for you? Sorry but I prefer having a developed HSR line 10 times more a some freight lines. And I am thankful to Turkish Railways for thinking first about serving people and building HSR lines instead of thinking in a capitalistic way and building freight lines for higher revenue. If the real money really comes from freight transportation at all..

Of course not - I didn't mean they shouldn't build HSR, by all means they should. I am suggesting instead of adding lanes to existing highways all over the country to support the intercity traffic demand, of which a significant portion is freight, they could have spent less on the highways and completed the rail network.

All developed countries have a railway network, Turkey has some rail lines but not a complete network. They have to connect major cities like Bursa (pop. 1.8M), Antalya (960k), Urfa (550k) and possibly Trabzon (330k), and have to remedy anomalies such as Ankara-Konya, and connect Zonguldak (coal reserves and major steel manufactories) to Adapazarı (from which the most concentrated industrial zone of Turkey stretches all the way to İstanbul). Zonguldak-Adapazarı is 183km by land and 900km by rail.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Toker

Zonguldak-Adapazarı is 183km by land and 900km by rail.

What kind of detour forces that kind of situation? (Also is this route feasible by sea?)

[Toker]

Just absence of a rail line. By sea it would have to go through Bosphorus, which makes the route a winding 300km, and subject to delays due to heavy traffic through the narrow strait.

By the way I noticed that in the map Baron Hirsch posted above there is a future line between Zonguldak-Adapazarı, which means the directorate of state railways might not be as brainless as I thought.

[Baron Hirsch]

Yes, bridging the gap between Adapazari and Zonguldak is apparently seriously underway, u/c or tender, I do not recall, but as it is a comparatively short gap and the line will of course be conventional, it could be ready in a few years.

@hammersklavier: except for Istanbul, Izmir and a few others, all Turkish port cities have very high mountains almost immediately behind the city limits, so during the two major waves of rail construction (1870s to 1918 and 1935-1945) it was deemed unfeasible to connect them to their hinterland, leaving many of the foremost seaside cities unconnected to inland Anatolia.
Traditionally coal from Zonguldak was shipped to Istanbul by ship, but nowadays everything happens on the road. Judging by the ships you see passing through Istanbul, domestic freight ships are just as dead as domestic long-distance ferries, a shame as it would be a great way to unclog the congested city thoroughfares, decrease road accidents, etc.
And I agree nobody will ship cargo via a 900 km track if a truck can do the ride over 200 km.
Update: the tender for Karasu (near Zonguldak, to which tracks already exist) has been assigned and construction is to start this year and the lien is to enter service on 5 October 2013. The gap is only 70 km but will cost 300 million to complete.

[manon]

It is great in a few year later all big cities will be connected with eachother, I prefer railways instead of airways for short distance under 500 mile (800 km).

[Baron Hirsch]

Originally Posted by manon

It is great in a few year later all big cities will be connected with eachother, I prefer railways instead of airways for short distance under 500 mile (800 km).

Where do you take that optimism from? Yes, Istanbul, Ankara, Konya, Bursa will most probably be connected with each other by HSL by 2018 or so. But:
Izmir - we have been waiting for the Ankara - Izmir tender for years. Maybe a small and simple part to Afyon will be announced soon, but this is just a start. No HSL but highway is underway between Istanbul and Izmir
Antalya - although one of the most visited cities in summer, is in the plans for after 2023.
Trabzon - planning is underway but nothing is concrete.
Adana, Gaziantep, Diyabakir, Urfa - nothing but vague intentions as yet

[Kanuni]

High Speed Railways in Turkey.

[hammersklavier]

I'm already beginning to see a pattern, and natural extensions.

Most important route that has no expression would be from Adana to Diyarbakir via Antep--this connects three cities the size of Madrid.
Next most important would be an Aegean seacoast link from Antalya to Bursa via Izmir. This region is, of course, the most densely populated in Turkey. If at all possible, make it go through Denizli.

After that we go from the realm of natural extension to the realm of logical extension, but with less justification:
Of these, Kayseri to Antep via Maras makes the most sense,
and then an extension from Diyarbakir east to Van.

Finally I want to address a key infrastructural need that is important for both freight and passenger rail:
A seacoast line from Istanbul to Trabzon via Zonguldak and Samsun. It may diverge from the current network at Adapazari.

Post scriptum: Why does the line from Trabzon meet the main network at Erzurum rather than Erzincan? It occurs to me that an Erzincan alignment would be better for the dominant movements--from Trabzon west to Ankara and Istanbul.

[Baron Hirsch]

The map above is outdated in several of the planning details. Studies have been going on for both varieties, Erzincan-Trabzon and Erzerum-Trabzon. Erzincan-Trabzon just recently flunked its feasibilty study, thank Allah somebody still had the bravery to face up to this nonsense. Trabzon is a port town of some 300,000 and with little growth, but. The plans for the HSR foresaw a tunnel system that could rival the Gotthard Base Tunnel. While the port should find some connection to the railways, this plan was ludicrous and only justified by the fact that the city is one of the two centers of support for the ruling party and those numerous votes have to be rewarded somehow.
If it is worthwhile somewhere to bridge the enormous different height between the central Anatolian plain and the sea, this would in my humble opinion be for a line Konya-Mersin-Adana-Antep-Urfa on the one hand and Eskisehir-Antalya-Alanya (to echo the constant request by one colleauge) on the other. Neither line is considered urgent by the powers that be unfortunately.

[NiGhtPiSH]

I don't know if it has already been discussed, but are there some real plans for a railway bypassing the Van Lake and speeding up the connections to Central Asia?

[Baron Hirsch]

A Lake Van northern bypass has been a recurrent topic in the skyscrapercity infrastructure threads, but I do not recall where exactly. At present this does not seem a priority. As most investments in the next years will be into the line to Kars, it seems more likely that Turkey will build a new line from Kars to Nahichevan, which could have a sidebranch to Iran and thus create a more efficient corridor than the Van line is (if there is something on the Iranian side to connect to).