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Greater Manchester Transport Projects Transport Matters For Greater Manchester and Surrounding Areas



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Old February 16th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #2881
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no space at ground level. so, if cost were no option, go under (underground) or over (monorail) - if only...
The shame of it is you only really need to go underground or overground from whitworth park to platt park to make it work so not on the scale of spending on the continent and in China, a huge amount. In the past companies raised money for railways through selling shares and also the channel tunnel. That would be what it would take and I feel it could be a profitable concern, I would buy shares in it.
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Old February 16th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #2882
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On another note is there going to be a disconnect at some point when the price of electricity will fall (due to abundant gas from fracking and new finds off the coast of Africa, abundance of coal, nuclear and wind in this country) but crude oil will continue to rise, (due to excessive car use in China, India and the US). Surely at some time trams will then become a much cheaper form of transport than buses, or they will switch to electric buses, although still then very expensive batteries. How much does it cost to transport one person one mile by tram and how much does it cost to transport one person one mile by bus and then by car? I don't even know how you would calculate that but it would be an interesting statistic.
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Old February 16th, 2012, 06:04 PM   #2883
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Scientist - Re: electric buses, cities on the US/Canadian north west coast where there is an abundance of hydro power (and therefore cheap electricity) tend to use trolley buses. Electricity doesn't have to equal trams.

Passenger transport is largely unprofitable, especially in terms of repaying off capital debt. The typical business model where it has made some money is in property development, where the value of land/development opportunities attached to it rise as an area becomes better integrated into the transport network. That requires that the transport company owns the land (or at least can use increased tax revenues from its development to pay off its construction debts) and that their is sufficient demand for more intensive land uses to cause intensive development. Since undeveloped land in the area is not in public ownership, and the only intensive land use demands down this corridor are for student housing (which produces no tax) there is little possibility of pursuing transport improvements here by that method.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 04:40 PM   #2884
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Scientist - Re: electric buses, cities on the US/Canadian north west coast where there is an abundance of hydro power (and therefore cheap electricity) tend to use trolley buses. Electricity doesn't have to equal trams.

Passenger transport is largely unprofitable, especially in terms of repaying off capital debt. The typical business model where it has made some money is in property development, where the value of land/development opportunities attached to it rise as an area becomes better integrated into the transport network. That requires that the transport company owns the land (or at least can use increased tax revenues from its development to pay off its construction debts) and that their is sufficient demand for more intensive land uses to cause intensive development. Since undeveloped land in the area is not in public ownership, and the only intensive land use demands down this corridor are for student housing (which produces no tax) there is little possibility of pursuing transport improvements here by that method.
Good points, I am certainly learning a lot on this thread. I was thinking of the amount of rail that got built in the past through shares, but that would be before the rise of the car killed profits.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #2885
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Two questions: 1) Was there ever an exact route drawn up for the proposed trafford centre line including which streets it would go down and where the stops would be?

2) When the airport / wythenshawe line is finished what lines have the highest probability of being constructed after that?
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Old February 17th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #2886
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For your information, it wasn't cars, but more trucks than damaged off the trains.

When reliable trucks emerged after the Great War, the profitable trade from shunting commercial goods Around the UK diminished and so did the profits of the rail companies.

From then on it was a slow decline till nationalization, when like today, the bankrupt Big Four rail companies debts were taken on by the state. I believe that there is possibility a still outstanding debt of £30bn on the network.

I am sure the train enthusiasts will correct me on any of the points above. Feel free to do so.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 04:55 PM   #2887
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Is there a tram solution to any of these?:

The top ten most congested roads in Gtr Manchester as follows:
1. M67 - Mottram in Longdendale junction (A57)
2. Princess Parkway A5103 / Mancunian Way
3. M61 - Jct 3 Kearsley
4. M60 - Jct 14 Swinton
5. M67 - M60 Denton interchange
6. M60 - Jct 10 Trafford Centre
7. M56 - Jct 2 Sharston
8. M61 - Jct 2 Walkden
9. M61 - Jct 1, M60 Wardley Interchange
10. M60 - Jct 11 Barton
The scorecard also found that the worst place and time to be on UK roads is in Manchester on Fridays from 5pm - 6pm where it takes on average 56% longer than the same journey would take in uncongested conditions.
BBC news 2010
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Old February 17th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #2888
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Quote:
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Two questions: 1) Was there ever an exact route drawn up for the proposed trafford centre line including which streets it would go down and where the stops would be?

2) When the airport / wythenshawe line is finished what lines have the highest probability of being constructed after that?

1. Yes, but I think we are on version three. You can easily google it. I am sure fellow forumistas will happily oblige you on that.

2. I actually thought you wrote "highest probability to get bricked"

My answer would the western branch of the Airport line, followed at a much latter date the extension to Stockpoet. Through many on here question if that will ever emerge, especially SMBC's coldness on this.

If not that then a strong contender would be an extension from Ashton to Stalybridge as TMBC are lobbying for this.

We have the thought of tram trains and if they might be an answer for some of the commuter lines, which I guess would take precedence over any new tram lines.


After that we are talking another generation.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #2889
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Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
For your information, it wasn't cars, but more trucks than damaged off the trains.

When reliable trucks emerged after the Great War, the profitable trade from shunting commercial goods Around the UK diminished and so did the profits of the rail companies.

From then on it was a slow decline till nationalization, when like today, the bankrupt Big Four rail companies debts were taken on by the state. I believe that there is possibility a still outstanding debt of £30bn on the network.

I am sure the train enthusiasts will correct me on any of the points above. Feel free to do so.
Basically correct, but wrong war I think. Up til 1939, the bulk of road transport (and almost all long distance road transport) was owned and operated by the rail companies. The advent of reliable trucks at first mainly affected local horse-drawn carriers.

Then in the second war, the whole system necessarily came back under state control. At the end of the war, the railways were effectively bankrupt (as the maintainance backlog was quite beyond their capacity to finance). But in the meanwhile, there were hundreds of thousands of trained truck-drivers suddenly demobbed; and hundreds of thousands of surplus trucks for them to buy. This created an enormous and uninteded subsidy to road haulage, and there was no way the railways could compete. The post-war Labour government tried to resolve this gross ecnomic distortion by nationalising road transport, but predictably it all came unstuck.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #2890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scientist12
Two questions: 1) Was there ever an exact route drawn up for the proposed trafford centre line including which streets it would go down and where the stops would be?

2) When the airport / wythenshawe line is finished what lines have the highest probability of being constructed after that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes

1. Yes, but I think we are on version three. You can easily google it. I am sure fellow forumistas will happily oblige you on that.

2. I actually thought you wrote "highest probability to get bricked"

My answer would the western branch of the Airport line, followed at a much latter date the extension to Stockpoet. Through many on here question if that will ever emerge, especially SMBC's coldness on this.

If not that then a strong contender would be an extension from Ashton to Stalybridge as TMBC are lobbying for this.

We have the thought of tram trains and if they might be an answer for some of the commuter lines, which I guess would take precedence over any new tram lines.

After that we are talking another generation.
I found the original Phase 3 plans using google there the line terminated above ground. If you manage to find anything new, let us know.

Sorry I can't share docs I found, away from PC at the moment.

Heaton, is there any info on the newest version as didn't they say they'd redesigned it from the Port Salford idea?
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Old February 17th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #2891
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I found the original Phase 3 plans using google there the line terminated above ground. If you manage to find anything new, let us know.

Sorry I can't share docs I found, away from PC at the moment.

Heaton, is there any info on the newest version as didn't they say they'd redesigned it from the Port Salford idea?
image hosted on flickr

trafford centre line by scientist12, on Flickr

I can find a more detailed old version that gives an idea of the exact streets and a new version that lacks a lot of detail hence my inquirey. The old version has an unnecessary stop at wharfside, seems to take a detour round mosely st and tucks in by the canal to teminate at the Trafford centre. The new version of course includes Port Salford, seems to go on a direct route through trafford park missing out the moseley st stop and possibly does not run along the canal??
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Old February 17th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #2892
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Note the imperial war museum stop, some distance away from the imperial war museum! Media city would be closer.
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Old February 17th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #2893
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image hosted on flickr

gmpte map by scientist12, on Flickr

I would literally convert all the grey lines to tram train and the green bus lane to tram and die happy - that would be one hell of a monster tram network!! You could look London in the face with that one!
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Old February 17th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #2894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scientist12 View Post
image hosted on flickr

trafford centre line by scientist12, on Flickr

I can find a more detailed old version that gives an idea of the exact streets and a new version that lacks a lot of detail hence my inquirey. The old version has an unnecessary stop at wharfside, seems to take a detour round mosely st and tucks in by the canal to teminate at the Trafford centre. The new version of course includes Port Salford, seems to go on a direct route through trafford park missing out the moseley st stop and possibly does not run along the canal??
Try this scientist. It contains a googlemap by andy alr with the revised route of the Port Salford line drawn on. It seems to mirror tfgm's 'geographical' diagram fairly accurately.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...97&page=48#942

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Old February 17th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #2895
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Version three as

1 and 2 was to The Trafford Centre, with some alterations around Parkway.

3 extends to Port Salford.

Thank you Scientist for answering Mac's question.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 01:14 AM   #2896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scientist12

trafford centre line by scientist12, on Flickr

I can find a more detailed old version that gives an idea of the exact streets and a new version that lacks a lot of detail hence my inquirey. The old version has an unnecessary stop at wharfside, seems to take a detour round mosely st and tucks in by the canal to teminate at the Trafford centre. The new version of course includes Port Salford, seems to go on a direct route through trafford park missing out the moseley st stop and possibly does not run along the canal??
An that what I found while looking ages ago. never managed to get more up to date info myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative

Try this scientist. It contains a googlemap by andy alr with the revised route of the Port Salford line drawn on. It seems to mirror tfgm's 'geographical' diagram fairly accurately.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...97&page=48#942

Any chance of a link JDR? Doesn't work on the iPad :-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes
Version three as

1 and 2 was to The Trafford Centre, with some alterations around Parkway.

3 extends to Port Salford.

Thank you Scientist for answering Mac's question.
Ah thanks, I thought Port Salford was version 2.

Thanks for great help guys :-)
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Old February 18th, 2012, 01:49 AM   #2897
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Here's Andy's map, with Port Salford line drawn on in purple :-



It seems to trace the route of the tfgm orange line pretty faithfully, the only bit I'm not sure about is through the goods yard between Lostock Parkway and the shopping centre.

Main differences from the original route are :

# Man United stop will now be on Trafford Wharf Road near Sam Platt's, instead of on Wharfside Way

# It will continue along Trafford Wharf Road to stop directly outside the Imperial War Museum

# Then turning left along Warren Bruce Road, swing right at the roundabout on to the North side of Village Way

# Village stop will be at the top of Third Avenue near the Trafford Park Hotel, but it will no longer turn left down Third Avenue, nor run along Westinghouse Road, but continue along Village Way and Park Way .

# Parkway Circle stop will be at the other end of Westinghouse Road, then continuing along Park Way as far as a park & ride near Lostock Circle. The Peel Hotel will be here if they build it.

# Then turning right, right and left through the goods yard to the Trafford Centre. It will no longer touch the Bridgewater Canal nor the Costco car park.

A bit less convoluted than the original TC section, but the Port Salford bit is also a long way from a straight line . . . Unless they change it again!


video fly-through c/-GanEden

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Last edited by Johnny de Rivative; February 18th, 2012 at 02:15 AM.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 09:17 AM   #2898
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Cheers JDR.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 12:48 PM   #2899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative View Post
Try this scientist. It contains a googlemap by andy alr with the revised route of the Port Salford line drawn on. It seems to mirror tfgm's 'geographical' diagram fairly accurately.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...97&page=48#942

thank you, the photo's are fantastic
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Old February 18th, 2012, 12:57 PM   #2900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative View Post
Here's Andy's map, with Port Salford line drawn on in purple :-



It seems to trace the route of the tfgm orange line pretty faithfully, the only bit I'm not sure about is through the goods yard between Lostock Parkway and the shopping centre.

Main differences from the original route are :

# Man United stop will now be on Trafford Wharf Road near Sam Platt's, instead of on Wharfside Way

# It will continue along Trafford Wharf Road to stop directly outside the Imperial War Museum

# Then turning left along Warren Bruce Road, swing right at the roundabout on to the North side of Village Way

# Village stop will be at the top of Third Avenue near the Trafford Park Hotel, but it will no longer turn left down Third Avenue, nor run along Westinghouse Road, but continue along Village Way and Park Way .

# Parkway Circle stop will be at the other end of Westinghouse Road, then continuing along Park Way as far as a park & ride near Lostock Circle. The Peel Hotel will be here if they build it.

# Then turning right, right and left through the goods yard to the Trafford Centre. It will no longer touch the Bridgewater Canal nor the Costco car park.

A bit less convoluted than the original TC section, but the Port Salford bit is also a long way from a straight line . . . Unless they change it again!


video fly-through c/-GanEden

There's clearly no plans for a tram in this video is there! Crazy, the traffic is already at capacity there at rush hour and at the weekends.
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